S2 Ep1057: Rahm Emanuel: Trump Is a Chump

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bulwark Podcast – S2 Ep1057: Rahm Emanuel: Trump Is a Chump

Release Date: June 4, 2025

In episode 1057 of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a candid and comprehensive conversation with Rahm Emanuel, a seasoned Democratic strategist and former White House Chief of Staff. The discussion delves into the current political landscape, Democratic strategies, and critiques of both the Trump administration and the Democratic Party's internal dynamics.

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1. Introduction

Tim Miller kicks off the episode by announcing an upcoming rally in support of Andre outside the Supreme Court, emphasizing the continued advocacy for Venezuelans unjustly sent to a gulag in El Salvador. He then transitions to his main guest for the episode, Rahm Emanuel, highlighting Emanuel's extensive political background, including his roles as a Congressman, Mayor, White House Chief of Staff, Chair of the DCCC, and Ambassador to Japan.

2. Rahm Emanuel’s Background and Reflections

Rahm Emanuel begins by correcting Miller's initial list of his titles, adding his role as the Caucus Chair for the Democrats and Senior Advisor for Policy and Strategy under President Clinton (01:29). He reflects on his early career, entering the White House at age 32, and discusses the formative impact of the Clinton years on his political philosophy.

Notable Quote:

"Bill Clinton was a small bore... President Clinton was the first president to do anything on climate change, the Kyoto accords." (03:10)

3. Current Democratic Strategies

a. The Reconciliation Bill

Tim Miller brings up Elon Musk's recent criticism of the reconciliation bill, labeling it as a "massive, outrageous, pork-filled congressional spending bill" that would significantly increase the budget deficit by $2.5 trillion. Emanuel vehemently opposes the bill, arguing that it disproportionately cuts healthcare for the middle class while providing substantial tax cuts to billionaires.

Notable Quote:

"It cuts health care for working middle-class families and their children and gives tax cuts to billionaires that won't even see it." (07:30)

b. Fiscal Responsibility and Deficit Concerns

Emanuel contrasts the current fiscal approach with the balanced budgets of the Clinton and Obama administrations. He criticizes the Trump administration for escalating deficits and undermining America's fiscal stability.

Notable Quote:

"George Bush paid a political price because he broke a pledge from '88 when he said read my lips. You're not going to get fiscal discipline... The Republicans are using tax cuts for the wealthy and healthcare cuts for the many." (10:20)

4. Election Strategy and Candidate Recruitment

a. Lessons from Past Races

Emanuel recounts his experience in the Iowa 3 race, highlighting the narrow loss and the importance of targeted candidate recruitment. He emphasizes the need to recruit candidates who resonate with working-class voters, particularly veterans, to bridge cultural gaps and rebuild trust.

Notable Quote:

"The Republicans were cutting veterans benefits. That really drove young men to pause recruitment... show you my bipartisan moment." (14:03)

b. Recruiting Veterans and Regular Folks

He advocates for recruiting candidates with military backgrounds and those who embody the struggles of everyday Americans. Emanuel underscores the significance of presenting relatable messengers who can effectively communicate Democratic values without appearing elitist.

Notable Quote:

"The messenger was part of the message... a safe set of hands." (18:14)

5. Critique of Identity Politics within the Democratic Party

a. Overemphasis on Cultural Issues

Emanuel criticizes the Democratic Party's focus on identity politics, arguing that it has diverted attention from critical economic and social issues affecting the majority of Americans. He points out that debates over pronouns, Latinx terminology, and defunding the police have alienated mainstream voters.

Notable Quote:

"The Democrats today are more unified geographically and ideologically, but we're culturally on the extreme... we talk down to people." (46:31)

b. Impact on Voter Relationships

He contends that the party's fixation on identity issues has led to a disconnect with voters who prioritize economic stability and the American Dream. Emanuel emphasizes the need to refocus on policies that support education, healthcare, and economic opportunity.

Notable Quote:

"The system is rigged for the middle class and their children's access to the American dream." (42:59)

6. Criticism of Joe Biden’s Presidency

a. Communication Failures

Emanuel expresses dissatisfaction with President Joe Biden's communication style, particularly his inability to effectively address and explain policy decisions. He cites instances where Biden's messaging fell short, such as his handling of immigration terminology.

Notable Quote:

"If you had said 'illegal immigrants' like Bill Clinton or Barack Obama did, you would have shown what people want from a president." (55:55)

b. Lack of Leadership and Strategic Decision-Making

He criticizes the Biden administration for not capitalizing on opportunities to advance policies that support working families and the middle class, instead focusing on divisive cultural debates.

Notable Quote:

"Donald Trump is not just stylistically pitting American against American... he has fundamentally set America back in the world." (32:00)

7. Democratic Party’s Future and Leadership

a. The North Star of the Party

Emanuel discusses the importance of defining a clear "North Star" for the Democratic Party, centered around the American Dream, economic opportunity, and supporting working families. He argues for policies that make the American Dream accessible to all children, not just a privileged few.

Notable Quote:

"The North Star for the Democratic Party is the American Dream—owning a home, building a family, and creating something meaningful." (60:36)

b. Potential for Leadership and Running for Office

When prompted about the possibility of running for office himself, Emanuel explains that while he is contemplating it, he believes in developing detailed policies that address America's challenges beyond just opposing Trump. He emphasizes the need for strategic timing and clear messaging.

Notable Quote:

"I'm going to flush out how to fight for America, not just how to fight Donald Trump." (64:10)

8. Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with a light-hearted exchange about Yeti cups and Emanuel's interaction with Tim Miller's family, showcasing Emanuel's personable side despite the intense political discussion. Emanuel reiterates his commitment to addressing the core issues facing American families and children, urging the Democratic Party to refocus on meaningful policies over divisive cultural debates.

Notable Quote:

"Give them a chance to buy their first home... stop making them take money out of their 401k to cover their paycheck." (42:32)

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Key Takeaways

• Fiscal Responsibility: Emanuel underscores the importance of balanced budgets and criticizes current spending bills that favor the wealthy over the middle class.

• Candidate Recruitment: Emphasizes recruiting relatable candidates, particularly veterans, to connect with working-class voters.

• Critique of Identity Politics: Argues that excessive focus on cultural issues has alienated mainstream voters and diverted attention from critical economic policies.

• Communication in Leadership: Highlights the need for clear and relatable communication from Democratic leaders to effectively convey policies and connect with voters.

• Future Strategy: Advocates for a unified Democratic strategy centered on the American Dream, economic opportunity, and supporting working families.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Bill Clinton was a small bore... President Clinton was the first president to do anything on climate change, the Kyoto accords." (03:10)

• "It cuts health care for working middle-class families and their children and gives tax cuts to billionaires that won't even see it." (07:30)

• "The Republicans were cutting veterans benefits. That really drove young men to pause recruitment... show you my bipartisan moment." (14:03)

• "The Democrats today are more unified geographically and ideologically, but we're culturally on the extreme... we talk down to people." (46:31)

• "I'm going to flush out how to fight for America, not just how to fight Donald Trump." (64:10)

• "Give them a chance to buy their first home... stop making them take money out of their 401k to cover their paycheck." (42:32)

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This episode offers a deep dive into Rahm Emanuel’s perspectives on Democratic strategy, fiscal policy, and the internal challenges facing the party. His insights provide a critical examination of current political tactics and offer guidance on how the Democratic Party can realign its focus to better serve the American electorate.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

All right. Hey, everybody, I have an announcement. If you're in D.C. on Friday, we are now doing a rally outside the Supreme Court in support of Andre before the fundraiser. So it'll be five o' clock outside the Supreme Court. Go to theborg.com events. Our buddies at Crooked will be there. Sarah's going to be there, a bunch of other folks. And we wanted to maximize as much attention as we could just to make sure that folks are aware that there are people out there that still care about these Venezuelans that have been sent to a fucking gulag in El Salvador for no reason. So come out if you're in the D.C. metro, 5 o' clock outside the Supreme Court. There are a handful of tickets left. If you want to come to that fundraiser, you better get that ticket right now because it's going to sell out probably today. So I appreciate you guys. Up next, I have a long interview because it was good, man. It was good. I just. I had to keep it rolling. All right, so we've got a marathon with Rahm Emanuel. I hope you guys enjoyed as much as I did. Stick around for that. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome today for his first time, a guy whose former titles include Congressman, White House chief of staff, Mayor, chair of the dccc, Ambassador to Japan. You figured it out. It's Rahm Emanuel. What's up, Rambo? How you doing, man?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm good. Not to be a jerk, but I thought I'd start right where I want to begin. You left two titles off.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, great. Which titles?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I don't know. You're not the only person everybody seems to forget. These two. I was caucus chair for the Democrats.

[Tim Miller]

When we took the majority caucus.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, I got it. Cactus caucus. And the second thing is, I was senior advisor, policy and strategy for President Clinton.

[Tim Miller]

We really shouldn't have forgot Bill Clinton.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The Clinton title seems to have kind of statute of limitations phased out.

[Tim Miller]

I guess that's probably right, though. I think we could learn some things from that era. How old were you then when you had that job first?

[Rahm Emanuel]

32 when I entered the White House, 31 when I entered the campaign, 32.

[Tim Miller]

You're a young man. If you look back on that now, what do you. What do you think about that era? As with the Wise and Grays, do you have any reflections on. On the Clinton years?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Oh, yeah, I. I saw President Clinton three weeks ago. We had about an hour together and also HRC catch up on. Yeah, it was the most formative period of time for me. Politically foundational I would say. And when you look back at I mean you look at today's standards, I mean I think about the fact that we couldn't get an attorney general based on forgetting to pay taxes for the help at the house for maid and otherwise. And you look at some of the not only cabinet members today. You look at what the president is doing a fundraiser. You look at the congressional hearings over the Lincoln Bedroom. You look at crypto fundraiser at the White House, an investor meeting. I mean it's so that's one standard. I look at what started an impeachment over, you know, with Monica Lewiskin. But on the other hand I look at the balanced budget a formative I remember and it's been informative me when I negotiated the children's health insurance program with Bruce Reed and Gene Sperling to I led the effort taking on the NRA for both the Brady Building assault weapon ban and it's always striked me now this, I mean this is therapy. So I'm just going to get off my vest. You know people. Bill Clinton was a small bore. President oh Balancing the budget small. Passing the assault weapon ban against the NRA. Small. Taking on the insurance companies against 10 million children without healthcare small. First president to do anything on climate change, the Kyoto accords. And then I think appropriately we can get into this if you want expanded NATO that included Poland, Romania, Hungary, the Czech Republic.

[Tim Miller]

So Hungary was maybe a miss in retrospect, but the principle was good.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You couldn't see that far ahead. Some people would think America was a miss right now. That was the standard.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. You've already taken me a different direction than I wanted to start. But like I have I'm curious now you said you, you saw HRC and Bill last week. What's their level of depression? Are they depressed? Are they down? Are they listening to this podcast and getting, getting more and more bleak by the day about their outlook on on the future.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, I mean Bill Clinton embodied Never stop thinking about tomorrow. He's angry about the fact that we're thinking about yesterday and keep thinking about yesterday's like two things you remember in 1992 he ran the theme song was don't stop thinking about tomorrow when he goes to Oklahoma immediately after the bombing, 1995 at this, what was then the service and it became a religious service. He said we will be with you as many tomorrows as it takes to rebuild. He was always both optimistic, hopeful for a kid from Hope, Arkansas and future oriented and 96 reelect the theme and I think appropriately was a bridge to the 21st century.

[Tim Miller]

Well, okay, so then HRC has got to be depressed. Someone's got to be depressed in that house. You got to bring balance in a relationship. You know, there's a lot to be upset about.

[Rahm Emanuel]

First of all, I'm very careful about ever saying anything about my conversations. I would not use depressed as the adjective. Let's just say that and I'll leave it there.

[Tim Miller]

Okay?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. I'm very careful. I never talked about.

[Tim Miller]

Fair enough.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I would never want that when I was mayor and I didn't or ambassador and I wouldn't want it and I don't do it to any of the three presidents I worked for.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe I'll invite HRC on and see if she wants to come and chat about her feelings so we can just hear from the source. I want to get into you and the Democratic stuff for most of the pod, but we do have some new stuff we got to talk about first. We got the big ugly over on the Hill, whatever we're calling it, the reconciliation bill. Elon yesterday put this out on his, on his social platform. I'm sorry, but I just can't stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork filled congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination. Shame on those who voted for it. You know you did wrong. It will massively increase the gigantic budget deficit. 2.5 trillion. Guess you got to hand it to Elon on one. So what do you make of the bill and of this kind of conversation happening among those guys?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I'm going to just talk to you about, I mean, where I'm at. Sure. One, there's a lot of people in the party that say, oh, the Democrats don't fight, don't fight. Well, you don't have a gavel and you don't have the bully pulpit. But what you can do Is win in 2026. And it's framing up for a win because I think Democrats in the country are very energized and independents are 2 to 1 against the incumbent party. And the incumbent party is not exactly energized. And historically, when Trump's not on the ballot, they don't energize, they don't vote like they did when he is. In my view, this bill structures exactly where you want that campaign. It's tax cuts for the wealthy and health care cuts for the many I have advocated. And I'll say it here, I would do a press conference with a big portrait of Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos Tim Cook, everybody that went to the inaugural right on the left side of the podium. On the right side I'd have 40 kids. And the reason 40 is because 40% of all American children today get their health care from Medicaid and chips the children's health insurance program. And I would say why did these billionaires get millions and millions of dollars in new tax cuts and these kids can't get right to see their pediatrician? Make it simple. And that is exactly what this bill achieves. It cuts health care for working middle class families and their children and it gives tax cuts to billionaires that won't even see it. Their accountant, the only people these billionaires see, the only money they're billionaires see is what their accountant tells them. They don't even know what they have. They don't know what they're worth. Is the idea that you're giving everybody that attended that inaugural for President Trump a tax cut worth billions and billions and billions of dollars and kids cannot see their pediatrician and that is a fact of life. And the Republicans keep trying to run, hide, camouflage exactly what they're doing and the bill's gonna chase them right down and they're gonna be roadkill for it.

[Tim Miller]

What are they doing? Can you steel man their point? I honestly don't even understand who likes this bill or what the case is for it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, the president referred to as one big beautiful bill. I suppose beauty is in the eye.

[Tim Miller]

It's the official name actually it's the.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Official name of the bill. It's in the eye of the beholder. And my view is he should go see an eye doctor because this is not by anything. Every day that people.

[Tim Miller]

This isn't the Melania of bills.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I wouldn't call her that. She's more beautiful than this. That's. This is the ultimate is sausage making. And it's a. And it has nothing to do with economics. It has everything. We got a score of victory. And really the crux of this is eviscerating health care for middle class and working middle class families. And a literally throwing out of the helicopter cash to billionaires. That is what's going on make no doubts about it. And the more and more not only the public learns, the more and more the members who voted for it learn, the more they're trying to run away from it. And it will find you even when you're hiding, even when you're wearing camouflage. And you will be roadkill for this. And they know it. And now they're trying to do everything they can to say, walk away from this. And what's going to now I'm going to get into. That's the political side of it or the public communication side. I saw today Senator Thune was saying, well, we're going to. Because there's no Republican senator that cares about the salt, the tax deduction for local government. And you got a bunch of Republicans in the House who went off and said, oh, I got a $40,000 SALT deduction. And that was a high watermark. And now they're going to have to sell if they want to stand by it, all these cuts, because there's nobody in the Senate that cares about what they care about. Couldn't happen to a better group of the three monkeys. And I refer to see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil. That's how you refer to the republic and congressional wing of the party, the three monkeys.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. What do you make about the debt point that Elon was bringing up? And you already mentioned the Clinton years balance budget stuff. I do think sometimes when I have Democrats on the pod, they're hanging their hat on the great fiscal responsibility work that they did back when Michael Jordan was winning championships. So it's been quite a minute since the Democrats are really doing really well on that front. But is this a moment to use that, do you think?

[Rahm Emanuel]

If I may. It's your podcast, it's your world.

[Tim Miller]

Let's hash it out.

[Rahm Emanuel]

The only two presidents since 1992 that actually did anything from a fiscal restraint standpoint. Bill Clinton obviously balanced the budget three years in a row. The surplus was so good, Alan Greenspan gave a blank check and a green light for Washington to go spend. And they spent. They did. But also President Barack Obama, well, he.

[Tim Miller]

Had it forced down his throat after the stimulus and after the Republicans won the House.

[Rahm Emanuel]

In all due respect, I would say to you, if you wanted to, after the financial meltdown to try to do spinach economics, it would have created the depression that we were all trying to avoid. But the person that gets lost in this. This will show you my bipartisan. This is a moment of bipartisan.

[Tim Miller]

Let's do it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, I mean, he paid a political price for this, but George Herbert Walker Bush 41 and Bill Clinton deserves a lot of credit, a lot of leadership. We did Both through the first budget and then the balanced budget, the 93 budget of President Clinton. But President Bush, when he agreed to what Senator Mitchell want in the 1990s, raising revenue set the foundation that Bill Clinton and the Democrats in both 93 and then bipartisan wise in 97 with the balanced budget actually built on and that's created the economic balance budget for three years plus. The economy was growing at unprecedented rate because of the introduction of both the Internet. Certain things were happening in the private sector that complemented the public sector and the person that gets lost in all the no. We are better fiscal stewards. No. George Bush paid a political price 41. I can't say that about 43 but 41 paid a massive political price because he broke a pledge from 88 when he said read my lips. You're not going to get fiscal discipline and put America's fiscal house on a trajectory that's just called stable to I wouldn't say living with means but stable and manageable without taxes and specifically taxes on the very well to do just not and everybody that says you could do it is deceiving and lying to you. And that's. And that's the example. Barack Obama raised taxes on the wealthy. Bill Clinton raised taxes on wealthy Barack Obama. Bill Clinton cut taxes for working lower class. George Bush raised taxes in all three times and did other things to spending. I'm not going to play OMB director but in this thing. But yes, the car. Yeah. At least I actually believe I actually. We have proof that we did it but you're not going to get there. And we got to stop. We got to actually level with the American people about that. And it's going to be hard because we've been living for the last including what happened under President Biden. We've been having deficits as if we're fighting a war and there's no war to show for it. And we're not making a lot of progress that way.

[Tim Miller]

So you were the point man in 06 when the Democrats took the House point guard. You're the John Paxton of sex effort to get Nancy Pelosi into the speakership. I have a quick quiz for you and then I want to learn some lessons. I was on the other side of you in that one. We almost. We almost nabbed you in Iowa 3. Do you remember the Iowa 3 race? Can you pull it?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Is that Nagels?

[Tim Miller]

No, it's Boswell.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Boswell, Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I had Jeff Lamberti. Yeah, we almost snuck you. It was the second closest one. It was my first. What first?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Wasn't that 52, 48?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll pull it up here to see if that's right. That sounds about right to me. Maybe.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I think it was three point. I think it was like a 3.7% spread. It wasn't exactly a full four, but keep going.

[Tim Miller]

It was a great race. So what do you learn from that for these guys now? Like what do you tell Hakeem if he calls you about what they should be doing this time?

[Rahm Emanuel]

So there's a couple things. Obviously goes without saying as a guy who started in politics, raise money, money, money, money. Okay. But on the thematics, don't make it harder than it is. Run against, as I laid out in this thing, the three Cs, corruption, cruelty and chaos, it's a referendum on them and the rubber stamp Republican Congress and using the tax cuts for the wealthy and the health care cuts for the many. That's the prison. Second, below that, picking your districts, I would have two categories. Any district Donald Trump won 55 or less recruit, have a surfboard or surfer in that district and we'll come back to what kind of surfer and what kind of bathing suit they're wearing, etc. Then I'd have a category kind of 56. And I haven't seen all the districts and based on, you know, Media Buy etc, but I would go 56 to 59. Let's just call it that category because you're early and you're going to see whether this wave peters out or grows. But the makings of the wave, which I believe are there, you're going to also have to study and rip apart what's going on in Virginia specifically in 2025 and understand it. Third, this is very important data. Nobody's really paid attention to this. To me, this was very, very revealing. Last week Mr. Volpe did some focus groups etc among working men. Stupidly, the democrats are spending $20 million. Try to understand, it tells you how stupid we are. It's as stupid as what the Republicans did on Hispanics, et cetera, after.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, so I was there for that one.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, I bet. Yeah, that's like. So here's the thing, he does the study, but in there is the roadmap. And the issue that works with 18 to 35 year old men most potently porn is the fact that the Republicans were cutting veterans benefits. And it really drove them like, you know, like no other issue. Not minimum wage. That drove them pause in Florida in the special election, the day that we had both Wisconsin, the two specials. I harped on this, didn't know why, but I. It was in Escambia county where pensacola is. There's 14% veterans, the national average is 6. So it's more than double. Donald Trump wins that district in 2020. Four by 19%. The Democrats in this special win Escambia County, Pensacola by plus three. So that's a 22 point swing. Then when you look at this data by Volpa, it tells you that veterans and the cuts that both Elon Musk and the Republicans are pushing is a huge opportunity to start a dialogue with young men, working men of all ethnicities and races. Pause recruitment. We did this by gut in 06. Now you have the data. Both 06, 08 and 2018 and 2022 recruit heavily veterans. Unbelievable. Because I've always said the messenger was part of the message. And you know, whether you're in Air Force, whether you're in the national security, whether you're. And it doesn't have to be mail as both Abigail in Virginia showing you the senator. Yeah. Alyssa doesn't. But that profile calms down a set of cultural barriers where the rest of the Democratic message and character gets hurt. And so to me, rubber stamp corruption is core and center this bill, hang it around their neck, make them choke on it and then have a bunch of people that look at and help communicate that we're a safe set of hands. Then the last and final spend all your time on them. It's not about us. Yes, us is the recruitment. Build the case. And if I said if there's a lesson out of 06. When I first did the first website ever and I did the House that Tom delay built and it was a website about all the corruption, everything, everybody kind of like this is a gimmick. But by the time 16 months played out, Bob Ney, Duke Cunningham, Ren Z out of there. The House that Tom.

[Tim Miller]

Mark Foley. Mark Foley is one that fucked us. I just looked. It was 51 47. You were pretty close.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, that was pretty.

[Tim Miller]

We were tied until that Mark Foley.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Well, started diddling the pages.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You weren't tied. You broke our momentum. And then Foley kind of goes with his no, no, you weren't tied. Anyway, fast forward. Somewhere in the spring of 2026, early summer, I would lay out a six in 2026, the last time there was a minimum wage. The number one issue in 6 and 06 was raising the minimum wage. And that was the last time I never got raised. So I would have Referendum, referendum, referendum. Here's what we'll do if we get the keys to the car. Six months.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Don't make it hard. And what I would say to the Democrats, which I know how caucuses develop. Don't have a bad case of the for reals. This is not about now. They don't sit there and sit there and spend hours and hours about the comma. Well, what is the income group? Shut up. Six in 2026. I don't want to hear. This is the problem. The Democrats have a horrible degenerative gene that think they're actually. When they're in the minority, they're governing. No, it's on them. It's a referendum on them. They are the rubber stamp. And then you just have to be a safe set of hands, not experts.

[Tim Miller]

I'm with you on all that. The recruiting thing is so important that it's something that anytime a Democrat calls me, I'm like, find people who didn't go to fucking college. Or who went to college and did poorly there, or who talk like a normal person talks. I'm so sick of having valedictorians being every Democratic candidate. It's like, oh, wait, we recruited the one person who was from this district, but then moved to New York to work at the hedge fund and then came home to run for.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, here's what I would tell you. I remember when I was bringing the candidates up to the caucus in 2005, you know, somebody that was an Air Force pilot, somebody that was, you know, worked in the intelligence area, and without naming names because the member is still a member. I remember she grabbed me by the hand, says, these aren't Democrats. I said, the big change we made in 2006, the candidate you recruited did not have to fit the Washington standard. Washington had to be flexible enough to fit the district standard. We changed the priority, and we opened up now again, you had Iraq, that horrible, horrendous war, and people were done. And you had people in these swing districts. They're purplish, lean, slight red, that the profile of a person out of national security, small business, football player, sheriff. They opened up a segment of voters that were just waiting but hadn't voted Democratic. And I just said, well, let me just. And I remember telling a member, I said, one, they're going to vote for Nancy Pelosi. Two, they're committed to the 6 and 06. That's better than half the caucus today. So I said, get off my back.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And, you know, so obviously, I've allowed insults to be forgotten.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, clearly. I know you've pulled something from the 90s already. Do you feel like Hakeem's been doing well? Do you have a grade for him so far?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, yeah, I got the vote. He pulled everybody in. Look, in the many respects, and this is a bad sign of what's happened on redistricting, the Democrats today. And again, I'm showing, obviously going back to Bill Clinton, the Democrats today, geographically, ideologically, etc, are more of a unified whole than when you had people from all parts of the country and all parts of the. Literally. So from that perspective, Hakeems had a ability to consolidate them and find a way to keep them unified. Nobody broke ranks like on this big beautiful abomination, partly because it was so shitty.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, even Jared Goldwater, that's like the most moderate. Yeah, right. But yeah, no, no, good. No, I'm with you. It's good.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That could be. Yeah, it was crappy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

They probably could have put together a bill that would have gotten Jared golden and instead he said it's the worst bill he's ever seen.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So look, I mean, you can't blame him for making good politics out of that. Hakeem, that's what leadership is now. And also you use early on, I want to correct. Paxton was part of a team. So you got to put your team out there and Hakeem is the right leader, but he's got to have a team that knows how to recruit, how to raise money, knows how to message, etc. And don't make the message. Making a sausage making process, not legislating message is about communicating to people, persuading them who are not yeses to become yeses. The one thing that we have right now, Elon Musk and the President are the gift that keeps on giving. In America, you have an incredibly energized Democratic base. So a half the battle is already taken care of. Now we got to get from 47 to 51. Our lives now are on that 4%.

[Tim Miller]

Everyone knows you gotta wear sunscreen in the summer, and boy do I know it. Because anytime I come on here with rosy cheeks, I've got all my surrogate mothers out there in the comment section telling me to up the spf. I'm doing my best out there, people. All right? One thing that you could do if you're looking for sunscreen this summer is try to do a little bit more than just block the uv. And the scientists at Oneskin have figured out a way to do it. They made a whole family of mineral sunscreens that target UV rays, free radicals and cellular aging. The best part, unlike other mineral SPFs that feel heavy and chalky, these feel like skin care. Lightweight, breathable and super hydrating. Oneskin has an award winning OS1 face SPF. And they're also launching an all mineral Lip SPF that provides instant hydration and protection with a smooth texture. You got to feel to believe. So try their family of sunscreens with 15% off your first purchase using code Bulwark at Oneskin Co. I feel like thanks to me, there's a whole generation now out there of middle aged men that are moisturizing and using sunscreen that can help prevent them from aging. Because, you know, I'm just chatting about it at the shows. I've got heterosexual males asking me if I can recognize their glow up. And let me tell you, I can. I can see the difference if you're moisturizing. I can see the difference if you're using one skin. Sunscreens that are light and make you feel protected but also fresh. Let me tell you, if you're not doing it, I'm noticing that as well. And I'm not going to call anybody out on this podcast, Reid, but I saw a couple of you in Chicago and let me tell you, it's time for you to use our promo code and get on with Oneskin. Oneskin is the world's first skin longevity company. By focusing on the cellular aspects of aging, they keep your skin looking and acting younger for longer. For a limited time, you can try one skin with 15% off using code bulwark at OneSkin co. That's 15% off OneSkin co with code Bulwark. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Give your skin the scientifically proven gentle care it deserves with one skin. Just really quick, two other things on the Trump administration. Let me ask you a question about China.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. How come I knew the number on the Boswell race 51:47 slightly better than you who are living and breathing. I have responsibility for 50 of these race.

[Tim Miller]

This is. What did you try to bury? That's the answer to that question, Rahm. It's when you look back on your life, there are different kinds of people in this world and there are some people that look back and have negative views on how things have gone and they remember the worst things. Apparently you, you remember the meanest thing somebody said about you in 1997. For me, I look back and I remember the fively. I kind of spin things to myself. It's like motivated reasoning. And I'm like, we only lost that race by three, right? That was closer than we thought. No, we lost by four and a half. You know, I look back and I bumped myself up a point and a half in the memory.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. The truth is the number there, 5140 is closer. Yeah. So anyway, keep going.

[Tim Miller]

Not bad.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm just being a jerk.

[Tim Miller]

No, let's do it. I'm going to be a jerk here in a sec, but we got some Trump stuff. He put this bleed out this morning.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Oh, I didn't see it.

[Tim Miller]

I like President Xi of China, always have and always will. But he is very tough, all caps, and extremely hard to make a deal with. That's kind of a beta tweet for me. But you were. You were Japanese ambassador, so this is kind of a point.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I was U.S. ambassador, Japan.

[Tim Miller]

U.S. ambassador, Japanese. Thank you for correcting me.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I was not representing Japan.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, well, you know. Okay. We don't have to get into the semantics there. Okay. I think people are following. But as part of that, obviously in a lot of conversations about the right way for us to counter China, how do you think the Trump administration is.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Doing on that score thing out of the bat? Every government does profiles of the other leaders.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Now, not all the countries in the world, but trust me, there's a profile. President Trump in every Country, Foreign Ministry, etc. Donald Trump. The headline of his profile, Donald Trump is a chump. That's the profile. That's the story and the headline. They know it. That's why he got under his skin about taco, etc. He is desperate, desperate to get on the phone with Xi. And Xi knows it. And it's going to string him along because he's a chump. And I used to say this to Bill Clinton, going back to the balanced budget because at night he'd take a phone call and he would not give away the start. But he was much more malleable than we were at the negotiation. So I called him and in the morning I said, look, I spent two hours every morning cleaning up what you gave away at night. So here's the deal. You want to get to a yes, the other side's got to know you can live with a no. And if you can't communicate that, I'm putting a play school phone on your nightstand. That's it. I'm not letting you do this anymore. I said, I spent the last week from 8am to 10:30 cleaning up. I said, so the other side has to know at the end of the day, you're comfortable. Like on welfare. You vetoed two, you finally got some. They got to know you're comfortable with a no. You can live in your skin. And if you can't communicate that, call me. I'll talk to you, but don't call them.

[Tim Miller]

You're the no man.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, no. We'll say a couple other things, but I think going now, fast forward. First of all, the Chinese will not put Xi in a moment because they've already realized the President was deceptive about the conversation they had that never happened. They saw Zelensky, they saw South Africa leaders, they've seen other things. They don't think he's. That he announced certain things on conversations with Putin that also are not true. So they are not going to put Xi in there. And if they do do, eventually in the end of the day, America will have to give away the store before they get on the phone. This is going to be the most expensive calling card we've ever had. And the President is not a good negotiator. Contrary to his vision, we have six bankrupt businesses. He gives away the store before he gets to the table. He doesn't hold anything back. He's desperate for a press release. And I keep saying this on the substance and you got to know the substance if you wanted to increase manufacturing jobs. We had 500,000 manufacturing jobs in America on day one with a help wanted sign. Fill those. You now were supposed to be adding manufacturing. And the auto industry is saying, we're going to close. We're actually going backwards under Donald Trump's tariffs. And I. And she's sitting there and saying, I'm just going to keep squeezing and squeezing and squeezing and he's going to walk out because Trump's a chump. And that's what's happening. And the other problem is if you're going to confront China now, you can do a grade on the export controls we negotiated, but on the technology that China hated. The export controls we had, Japan, Korea, the Dutch and Taiwan, the Big Five, were aligned. Problem with Donald Trump, he's pissed off all our allies. Nobody is going to stand with the United States. So we're on this solo flight when we had literally a full plane. Europe was confronting China both militarily, strategically, politically, economically. They were aligned on us, on the fighting, their coercion, etc, not to leave Australia out, but on the chip side, I was doing the export control. Now Japan just saw what we just did to them on the tariffs on steel after the Nippon thing, they're going to sit there and look at the bonds that were the treasury notes were offering our biggest foreign purchaser. They're not going to go not to the level they used to. This is the most like everything Donald Trump does. He's impulsive, never thought through the next move. Whatever you want to say about China, and I don't over inflate them because Xi has made plenty of mistakes. Busting the real estate bubble, busting this municipality bubble, attacking the private sector in the area. We had China on their back foot. President Trump has given them a get out of jail card. And Xi is now running all over us. And Donald Trump looks as weak as he is.

[Tim Miller]

I want to ask you, just take off the politics strategy hat for a second. What should the Democrats be talking about? What's the right thing to talk about? I just want to get inside your, your, your bones, your blood pressure, your feelings. We're at June 4th now, so we're not. We're almost at six months, almost half, halfway through the first year.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You know what tomorrow is, don't you? June 5th.

[Tim Miller]

Is that meaningful to me?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, it's meaningful to me. It's my anniversary. It's my anniversary. Yeah. 32 years.

[Tim Miller]

We're coming up on your anniversary. You were 15 minutes early for your first date. I learned in the green room.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And she deserves combat pay.

[Tim Miller]

She does. I'm getting a taste of it right now. What's the thing that has fucking pissed you off the most about the first five months here? What is like really pissed you off? Like major blood boil, Made your wife annoyed that you were ranting about it to her and had her say, gram, I get it.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I do think that Donald Trump, look, no president has a perfect hand handed off. He had an economy that was growing. He had the respect around the world. We had the world kind of organized around our areas. And he has fundamentally set America back in the world. That's one. And here at home, he has exacerbated this kind of what I call Hunger Games politics, pitting American against American. Look, I will say this. When I was ambassador, I learned a lot about Japan, learned a lot about China, learned a lot about the Indo Pacific. Stuff I did not know. It was a great experience actually being away. I learned a lot about America being able to see it from a distance rather than just be in the scrum of the match. And we have incredible, incredible strengths. And I'll just tell you my one conclusion. There's nothing China does that scares me. There's the stuff here at home that worries me about the future. And Donald Trump is not just stylistically, etcetera, substantively pitting American against American. And I am furious at this moment in time. Historically, he could actually do something that pushes America into the future and makes it More for the working families of this country and the middle class of this country. And he has pissed it away. Now is irrecoverable. America is an unbelievably resilient country. But he has pissed it away. And I can do that. Whether it's on the universities and research side, I can do it. Whether it's on the tax bill that he has. Everywhere you go, he took this moment, and he could have gone this way, you know, with that famous, when you get to a fork in the road, take it Yogi Bear. And he's taken every time the wrong road in that fork.

[Tim Miller]

This is an ad by BetterHelp. Look, sometimes there's a stigma around guys talking about mental health and therapy. It's not true. On this podcast, I was trying to get Ron to open up and. And tell me about his feelings, and we did pretty good about. We did pretty good about that. I don't know. We didn't get into childhood and parenting, which is what you end up having to talk about in therapy, but maybe on the next podcast. But therapy's been super useful for me over the years, and if that's something that you're looking for, you can turn to our sponsor, BetterHelp. With over 35,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people. It's convenient, too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit it into your busy life. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse array of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp and our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com thebullwork that's betterhelp.com thebullwork this conversation makes me want to do the quote about how America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we lose, it'll be because we destroyed ourselves. But that's actually a fake Abraham Lincoln quote. That's not a real one. But whoever made up the fake quote.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Let'S give it to Mark Twain.

[Tim Miller]

We'll give it to Mark Twain.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, he's not here. Let's give it to Twain.

[Tim Miller]

All right, I want to get into Democratic strategy talk, and I've been watching some of your interviews. I want to play the audio of one. You have one particular group of people within the coalition that you're mad at, and I want to. I want to listen to you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Here's my view. You have a yeti cup you fund wbz, npr. Sit down, listen and say you're sorry. And I include myself and the same mistakes. If you have a yeti cup, be quiet, sit in the corner and listen. Stop talking.

[Tim Miller]

I have a podcast, Ron. You're gonna make me sit in the cuck chair with my yeti cup and stop talking. I'm not allowed to talk now just cause I drink out of a lovely yeti cup that keeps my water cool.

[Rahm Emanuel]

First of all, when you tweeted that after I said that, my daughter, who's now on her Navy ship out in the Indo Pacific, sent me your tweet. So I wanna first. And if my memory serves me correctly, it's the same yeti cup. So you're doing the same one.

[Tim Miller]

I only have one. Yeah, we're not gratuitous over here, okay? I don't have seven yetis. I just have my one pink yeti cup. My daughter has one.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I want to say one thing. I was doing an interview with the editorial page, the New York Times, etc. Off the record. And I said the same thing. If you have a yeti cup. Shut up. You have something to learn. Sit in the corner and actually take notes, etc. What is my swag when I leave?

[Tim Miller]

Yeti cup.

[Rahm Emanuel]

A yeti cup with the New York Times, Logan. Yeah, I do. I say that and I'm really tired. The party used to be a big tent party. And like everything the college educated, very smart, very sophisticated, know how the world worked. The Aspen Institute attending Brookings Scholarship attendees and readers of the. Of all the journals sitting around telling everybody how to live their lives. And they were coastal. Etc. Now I'm doing this from Chicago, the third coast in America. You guys have run this car straight into a wall. Sit down, shut up. And actually you have a moment to learn something and stop telling people how to live their lives. Because you don't know squat. And nobody's had the balls to tell you that. And I just did.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe it's the Stanley cup people that are the real problem. It's the Stanley cup that's in vogue right now. That's what all the.

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's what they're doing.

[Tim Miller]

There's a lot of real Americans drinking out of yeti cups, you know, out there hunting. But I take your point. My question is. Okay, you're appealing to me with this. Shut up, you coastal libs, telling people what words that they need to use. And stop doing that and start actually trying to be responsive to people's lives. Amen. Okay, but then now what And I'll tell you why.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Fundamentally and this relates to politics that we should be the moment the American dream becomes unaffordable is exactly when our politics become unstable. You want to strengthen democracy, strengthen the American dream that break both. And I put it on the Iraq war which is built on a lie. I put it on the liar loans from the financial sector and the elite who are responsible never even think they had anything to do with it. Destroying people's livelihoods. Give people a chance to buy their first home. Give them a chance when their doctor says you need this health care that they don't have to spend six hours on a phone with some insurance bureaucrat arguing about whether the doctor's medication and or recommendations are going to be paid for. Stop making them take money out of their 401k to cover their paycheck. That doesn't go far enough. And to me, we, and I say this, we meaning Washington, everybody involved in this should have a moment of self reflection and realize you're on the coast, your kids are fine, but that's not good enough. It's not the American dream if only 10% of the children in America get access to it. Another 90% and the system is rigged on behalf of your children and my children. Children it is. They're going to succeed. You know, I got three great kids. They all went not just to good schools, they're morally and ethically I think grounded. Two are the armed service, one full time. One is a reservist, the other one works also in the national security space on the thing you are not allowed to say called climate change. In the end of the day I think Amy and I as were on the. We did what we were supposed to do as parents and our kids couldn't be. But you can't be content just because your kids are okay. That's the responsibility you have if you're in public life that other kids, other families aren't. And so to me I do think these yeti drinking, hiking, Aspen Institute punks should just shut up, stop telling people how to live their lives and listen to the anguish. And I'll give you one experience. I told Amy this. It was we started this thing called Chicago Star Scholarship. First city to do it. You get a B average and earn that. In high school we made community college transportation and community college books free 3 years use it, lose it. And I said you should come. When we announce this, Amy, I want you to see this. I done like this. I started in 2014 anyway. 2016 we had three more years. She came in the 2019 one, and parents would come up to you, hug you with tears in their eyes.

[Tim Miller]

It's a Trump story.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Why?

[Tim Miller]

No, no, no, Mr. Emanuel.

[Rahm Emanuel]

No, no, sir. I want you to do me a favor. This is the Eddy Cuthbert, shut up and learn something.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, I'm listening.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Because you gave them a chance that they didn't have to pick which child went to college because they didn't have enough money for both. You helped them that free community college. You helped them not thinking about a second job or a second mortgage. And to them, this one thing, their child earned it with a B average. We didn't just give. Made a world of difference in their lives and a world of difference where they weren't failing as a parent. And Amy saw it. I remember on our ride home, she was saying, that was the most powerful thing I've seen in your tenure. And it always struck me and I. Some of the kids did a book for me, etc, their own stories. And then we did this thing called Chicago Star plus, which is if you kept your B average in community college, all the universities in the Chicago area gave you 20 to 50 off years three and four. It made a fundamental difference. Things that I and Amy could do for Zach Alon. And later, parents sat up at night not knowing whether they could do it for their two children or three children. And the American dream put them in this unprecedented, untenable situation. Which kid goes to college and which doesn't? Which of us are going to take a second job? And to me, you can't be content if your kids are fine. And I really. Then you and I both work in politics. You go back in our politics. Forget Donald Trump. Put him aside for a second. It becomes unstable and it becomes rickety. Exactly. When each successive year Washington stands on the sidelines as long as their kids are okay. And I put this on both parties, but other people's, you know, housing becomes unaffordable. College people turn themselves into pretzels for their kids. The 401k is no longer a savings account, but it's a basically buy now, pay later type of deal. It's crazy. And healthcare, most importantly. I remember my father on Thursday nights was on call. Dinner conversations, he was taking the phone. He never spent any time as a doctor arguing with an insurance company about whether this young child could get this procedure. And today, the dream has basically turned into a nightmare. So take that yeti cup. Take that yeti cup and put it where the sun doesn't shine. Okay?

[Tim Miller]

I'm happy with My yeti cup. I agree with like 80% of what you said and I totally agree with what you said about my kids and their kids being fine.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So that's a B average.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no, that's pretty good. It's a B average. You can get to the community college. I don't mean to minimize, I don't want to minimize at all how important that experience was for those kids, because it really was. And I think that's a great program. Program. Here's the problem. The other kids in their community college class are the ones that the Democrats are losing ground with. How do you actually get to these people? Because you say, like, oh, Trump doesn't actually give a fuck about any of them. Let's just be honest, he doesn't. And yet those are the types of voters across all races that are moving towards Trump and away from the Democrats. Obviously at an individual level, there are a lot of people that are going through hard times, but at a group level, actually, things are not worse meaningfully now than they were in 1995 when Clinton was elected. They're not. Okay, so why are they right? But when Clinton was in there, not the year he was elected. So what, what is the problem? Why can't you reach them?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Let me do two things. One is beyond the Chicago Star. One of the other things, and I wrote about this multiple times, we're the first city, only city and only no state's done this. You could not get your high school diploma unless you showed us a letter of acceptance from college, community college, a branch of the armed forces or a vocational school. So not just your children. My children had a post high school plan. We made it universal across the city. Every race, every income, every gender, everything. 99.4% compliance. So that's number one. You're going to not graduate and stop. You're going to think about tomorrow. Your kids think about tomorrow. There's a lot of kids in the city of Chicago and across this country that they don't have a four year horizon. They barely make a four week horizon. And we're going to change that horizon and we're going to start believing in yourself. Now to the core question, why do Democrats have problems? Because we're punks and we talk like, not only talk like punks, we talk down to people. We get caught up in a set of issues that aren't relevant. Think about all this, about transgender and sports, etc. There's hundreds of thousands of NCAA athletes and there's 10 transgender athletes in sports in that website. This is crazy. As I said, in education, we have the worst reading scores and Math scores in 30 years, and we're arguing about bathrooms and locker rooms and not the classroom.

[Tim Miller]

I bet that's part of the reason why you're losing with those voters, though. It's not. You're not talking about it. The Republicans are talking about it, and the Democrats didn't have a good answer to it. No, that's why they're losing with the voters.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, the answer is, to be honest about it, we're not going to. No, we're not going to talk about the child trying to figure out the pronoun. And that's a legitimate issue. We're going to talk about the rest of the class that doesn't know what a pronoun is. And we're going to. We're going to make sure the classroom is the focus of our education policy, not the name of the school and not whether you get a bathroom access. And we're going to return to the core issue. Now, take an example. Out of Mississippi, they're leading the country in reading scores. Why? Because they're fundamentally focused on attendance, reading what I call my art program. A for attendance, R for reading, and T for the truth. We're gonna have to tell parents exactly where your kids are. And here's my thing is that across a whole, and the reason Bill Clinton and Barack Obama won, they were culturally in the mainstream. We look like we're culturally on the extreme or on or off sides, out of bounds, and we have to get back to being an understanding where people live their lives, how they live their lives, and stop telling them how wrong they are.

[Tim Miller]

What's a specific example of a cultural issue where you think the Democrats are out of bounds with the mainstream, that they should be back?

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'll give you three. One is on the whole issue of pronouns, etc. Two, using and being told Latinx when it didn't even resonate with Latino voters. They're immigrants. They see themselves. Okay. Number three, Bill Clinton ran on 100,000 community police officers. My uncle was a cop in Chicago. We talked about defunding the police. And then when you say stop it, they said, well, it doesn't mean that. Well, then don't use the English language. Because usually when people say something, it's to communicate something. And I'll just give you those three cultural issues. Yeah, I mean, I could go on and on, but to me, we were caught on a set of issues and then anchor ourselves not just in the kitchen table, in this metaphoric Notion that the only thing you talk about at the kitchen table are your bills. You also talk about who your kids, friends are, what they're watching on social media, what's happening at the homeless encampment that's down the block from your house. We were totally awol. Only thing we wanted to say was the only issues and their core is the cost of living. But if you're trying to be a respected party that doesn't lose demographic groups, you have to be anchored. Now, let me give you one other piece. And this. I want to get this point across because I think it's really important for the party. We've decided our politics is identity politics, and we're losing ground with, quote, unquote.

[Tim Miller]

African American, Hispanic folks and Asians and everybody except white people and black ladies.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Actually, that's one. So one, we went backwards and we decided to anchor our politics because if you do identity, the other side gets to do identity. And I'm going to break the news to Democrats. The other side has more identity than you do. Just do the math. That's number one. So it's a bad premise to your politics. Number two is an example of that. Joe Biden was the first president to ever walk a picket line. And we went backwards with working families. Most progressive president, most progressive since Lyndon Johnson's or Truman from a Democratic side. There's just no doubt about that. Yet our party decides to run down Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, both get elected, reelected, both win the Midwest and win Ohio. And we went backwards. And we're not ready to assess whether the way we're approaching this is fundamentally from a theoretical case, flawed. And we approach politics like, okay, let's go down this punch list. Here's what this group needs here. And then we're sitting like. And we treat the American people like we're Margaret Mead. And look, look, they have thumbs. Who knew? Politics is not anthropology, for God's sakes.

[Tim Miller]

All right, I'm gonna throw two theories at you. One that is mine and one that is coming from other factions of the party. So I agree with everything you said about the three issues. The pronouns, like putting, you know, if you are. I'd hate to pick on Elizabeth Warren because plenty of people did it, but I just remember her, that she did it. She put she her in her bio. It's like, we know yet that you're trying to be respectful, but, like, we know it's kind of. It's weird and insulting, actually.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So. So. So did a number of other people.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So. Yeah. So I don't mean to fucking. I just. That one stuck in my mind. The cops. I agree with you and all that. You know who else agrees with you on all that? Joe Biden. Right. Joe Biden was not saying, hi, I'm Joe Biden, I'm he. Him. He wouldn't know what that means. He didn't use Latinx. And he was also one of the most pro cop presidents ever. The problem was that the party's brand didn't improve because he couldn't fucking talk about it. He couldn't explain it. He wasn't a good communicator. He was too old. And do you look back at that and say, man, maybe the problem was we just needed somebody with Joe Biden's views on all those issues, but someone who could actually communicate it to the country in 2025.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. Yes. Let me also say one other example that you didn't point. In his last State of the Union, President Biden, last State of the Union, when he went off script and everybody said, look, watch, he said illegal immigrants the next day because a Bunch of Washington 202 Area code jerks yelled at him. He said, I meant undocumented. That was the slowest pitch over the plate. Had he done his moment like Bill Clinton did, like Barack Obama did on their different issues, or Jack Kennedy did and he said, look, man, they're immigrants across the border, illegally illegal immigrants. You use whatever, undocumented, whatever you want, I'm gonna say illegal immigrants, end of story. He would have shown what people want from a president. Nobody thinks you deserve to go into the Oval Office if a group in Washington can stare you down, because they don't think you can stare down Xi or Putin.

[Tim Miller]

Chris Reed was in there. You were mentioning him from the 1990s, like, I don't understand. How did they let that happen? You were, you were ambassador Japan. How did you let this happen? Joe Biden got co opted. Well, it's all your people you had. You could have come home and be like, man, we got to save the country. Why didn't any of the adults who knew better, why didn't adults knew better protect him for that or help him or why didn't they push him out and put somebody in who could do it?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Let me say this, I do appreciate that you decided that at 7900 miles in Tokyo at the embassy, it was my response. No, it's okay.

[Tim Miller]

Somebody had to do something, man. With Donald Trump got a second term. I was, we were all out here. I was saying it. Where was Bruce Reed? Where were these people? Where was Steve Rickshetti? Why weren't they like, no, fuck you to these. These kids that are trying to make you change the way you talk. No. Or why weren't they saying, hey, President Biden, you can't do this. Let's find someone else. Who.

[Rahm Emanuel]

It is a 100% fair, 100%. Look, one thing I know about the White House, that Oval Office is seductive and that White House is insular. And that's what happened. They decided to put a barrier around and he decided. He made a decision, didn't want to hear anything else about it. And it's wrong. And we're in the country. Forget the party. Country's more important. Paying a massive price for this arrogance. No doubt about it.

[Tim Miller]

That's something we agree on.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Listen. But I want to say something on Joe Biden. I saw Joe by. My first assignment in 1993 was I was assigned by President Clinton to work with Senator Biden on both the Brady Bill and then the Violence Against Women act and Assault Weapon Act. And I did that from the White West Wing. He did it for the Senate. Our offices were next to each other. When I was chief of staff and he was vice president, we worked together on finding the votes for. I can tell you a funny anecdote about finding Arlen Specter, but finding the votes for President Obama's stimulus bill, his budget, and for the healthcare and working with the remaining 14 Democrats in the House, Catholics from the Midwest who didn't want to support Obamacare. And we. He and I worked it. And then I worked with him when I was 7900 miles away in Tokyo. And he was a different person in each of those stages. No doubt about it. And it doesn't take a genius. And he made a decision and the staff protected him on that decision. And we're paying a massive price for it. And anybody can says that otherwise it's full of crap. And. But I also think everybody's rewriting history. This was the most discussed issue for two years.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Trust me.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah. This was not. This was not a national security. We're going to brief the president on his PDP at 8am in the morning. This was the. If everybody thinks this was a secret, it was your subscription to the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, LA Times, Des Moines Register. Name any social media. It was the most. It wasn't a day that went by then it wasn't discussed.

[Tim Miller]

Our listeners were so annoyed. They changed on our front of our fan pages on Reddit, they changed the image of the podcast to Joe Biden is old to kind of troll us about how much we talked about it. So I hear you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I want to get back in the end of the day, you know, this is. Now you can sit here and do all the bloodletting on that.

[Tim Miller]

A couple of your pals in that little circle deserve some bloodletting. Got a few more wounds I'd like to put in them.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. But my thing you messed up. We got 20, 26. Gotta focus.

[Tim Miller]

Yep. I want to go do a different thing. I've been throwing pitches down the middle of the plate. You've been knocking them out for the bulwark audience. You know, maybe maybe the cultural stuff, they went a little bit too far. Democrats maybe should be more aggressive. Yeah, yeah. All right.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Strike the word maybe.

[Tim Miller]

Strike the word maybe. Okay. You're in my wheelhouse on this. Right. Democrats should be. I talk more normal, recruit more regular folks, like care about working class people. Education they should talk about. All right. There's a whole other group of the party, though, that's out there, including some of our listeners, that say that's not it at all, actually. And the problem is the neoliberal economic order. And that for the Democrats to get working class people back, it doesn't have anything to do with Latinx, but it has to do with populist economics. And that the Democrats should go to the path of Bernie and aoc, and that's the way you get people back. What do you think about that?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I got like seven things I want to say. One is, which one? Was it the peace or the prosperity you were most upset about? Okay. The greatest amount of jobs, greatest amount of growth, greatest amount of respect for the United States. Go pull up the stories in 1999 where America was the. It was signed. The unit went from a bipolar world to a unipolar world. Okay. And working class people were voting Democratic. Not only that, he won Ohio two times. Okay. So give me a break. And then I could say that about Barack Obama. Go through all the demographic politics. Sense.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

So. And whatever you want to say about the Republicans when they have president, they're loyal Democrats. Trash Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. They just happen to be the first two Democrats to be both elected and reelected since Franklin Delano Roosevelt. One double the size, triple the size of the earned income tax credit, one of the most progressive pieces of the tax code. The other one decided to get children's health insurance for 10 million children that had no health care. And they did it when the Congress was in the other Party's hands. Give me a break. And they weren't perfect. They're human beings. They got a lot more right than wrong. They left the tax code more progressive than the day they found it. Both of them. And they both did major things on climate change, healthcare, retirement security. Okay, now the system is rigged against the middle class and it's rigged against their children's access to that dream. That we agree with the critique, but the idea that you don't that somehow culture is not part of this story. One fact, Bill Clinton 40% of his advertising wasn't the economy stupid, it was end welfare as we know it. After Jimmy Carter, Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis being a new Democrat was Crux and the 40%, the most dominant issue in his advertising in a presidential campaign was on the cultural plane, let alone through all the policies, children's health insurance, welfare, minimum wage, etc. Guess what? We actually reduced child poverty from the day he walked in and continued it on down path. Now number two in that vein, how you address what I think, as I said earlier and I continue to believe is the North Star for the Democratic Party is the American dream, is owning that home, getting starting on your building a family and building something that to me is the core piece of this. But the idea that you could ignore this other stuff and just scream louder, here's your program. The last four years showed you. You said just three questions ago in the back, Joe Biden did most supportive of the police. There was a Joe Biden, a senator, et cetera, that was kind of grounded in what I call Scratton Joe. I think in the White House they abandoned the Scratton Joe and he became a Senate Washington Joe. I think that was a fundamental problem. And I would say that the idea that you think of families across the country don't want to know whether I don't mean to use shorthand hand, but whether it was welfare as we know it, a hundred thousand community police officers of what it was called in shorthand, Sister Soldier or Jack Kennedy going to Texas and saying, I'm not going to take direction from the Pope, but I'm going to be a president who is Catholic, not a Catholic president. And Barack Obama saying it's easy to father a child, but it's hard to be its dad. And being honest about that, showing that you had the courage and strength to speak honesty about some values issues. If you think people are only their wallet and they are principally driven by costs, etc. But somehow their value system and their interest in what Their kids are watching on social media or accessing everyone, doesn't matter to them. Then you again are drinking from a yeti cup. Okay. And that set of issues like what I talked about, recruiting veterans because you are grounded in mainstream values with exactly the struggles and challenges. Look, as a parent of three now grown kids, we did certain things to make sure our kids were buffered against what was happening in the world around them. Parents today feel they can't protect their kids from what they're seeing on social media. They can't protect their kids from what's going on at schools, etc. You should be empathetic to that and address that. And we don't. We think it's a nuisance. That's why recent immigrants are walking away from us. That's. We talk. We talk about immigrants not as immigrants as people of color. No. Today's Hispanic voters from Mexico, Central America, the Caribbean. Guess what? They're the new Italians, the new Irish, the new Jews. We talk to them as people of color. That's how we want to view them. That's not how they view themselves. They view themselves. They came to this country because they believe in America. They don't hate America. They believe in America and they want their kids to be part of America. That shouldn't be so hard from a party built on an immigrant foundation to understand.

[Tim Miller]

So it does sound like you're looking for AOC 2028. And then it doesn't sound like that's your problem.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Look, I think the critique of a system that's rigged as I. Let me go this way. People want their children to have a shot at the American dream, and right now they get the shaft. That's not wrong. Now, what are the policies to address that? We'll work on that. I'm not sure I agree with everything. She's not going to agree with everything I say. I'm not going to agree with everything she says. But the analysis of what the problem is. We have consensus. The idea that you just scream only one set of issues. Try to ignore this over here because it's not good for us. They pick that up. Voters are pretty smart.

[Tim Miller]

We're already over. But I just have. Can we go rapid really quick? I have a couple things I just really want to pick your brain on really quick.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay?

[Tim Miller]

Because I heard you talking Kara Swisher about the party's North Star. I've been asking Democrats what's on the party's hat. You know, like, I don't think that anybody. If you asked 100 top Democrats. What Hillary's main message was, what Biden's main message was, what Harris's main message was. I don't think anybody could. I think you'd get 98 different answers. Maybe the Biden 20, 20, maybe not return. You know, there might have.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Hillary said, I'm with her, which is like, no, she's with you. The focus should have been on them, not on her.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. What's on the hat? You got a hat for the Democrats or a North Star?

[Rahm Emanuel]

Yeah, that's what Bill Clinton always said when he said, you work hard, play by the rules, raise your kids to know right from wrong. I'm with you. If you work for a living, you're going to have a government that works for you.

[Tim Miller]

You famously curse a lot in private, but I learned when we talked off air that you don't curse on TV or on podcasts, which I respect. I like you never have. You're well raised. My mother wishes that I had that instilled in me. She tried very hard, and I apologize to her. So I'll cuss for you right now. If you could tell one person to fuck off right now, who would you say it to?

[Rahm Emanuel]

The entire Bulwark staff. No. No. You have to do something that deserves that.

[Tim Miller]

There's nobody right now that's grinding your gears that you just want to put your finger in their chest and say, f you. J.D. vance.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, here's the thing. It's a complicated answer because I feel about it towards the president, but I have a lot of respect for the office and the presidency, and I wouldn't do that. So I'm conflicted, to be honest.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'm serious about that son.

[Tim Miller]

Then I could do it for his son. He hasn't been elected to anything because you don't have to have any respect. He didn't do anything.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Well, I would put something else around the adjectives of what you. The word you use to the sons. Given that, I mean, I'm shocked at the chutzpah of this family. That's translated the gall, this family to be making money the way they're making. As if public service is about private gain. It's. And I think that's going to come back to haunt them because I think the Americans, they fundamentally know that's wrong. I have a lot of people I put in that list, some in my party, but I. I am very angry about what the president's doing to this country, but I have respect for the office, so I wouldn't say it, but I would Say a lot of other things that would communicate exactly that sentiment.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have a creative curse? Do you have one you want to share? A favorite one that you can share on air? A stand in? Do you have a go to stand in?

[Rahm Emanuel]

What I would use is either Hebrew or Yiddish. I would, you know, you're a schmuck. And since I can't say you don't know what that is, I bet you.

[Tim Miller]

I got a schmuck.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I got schmuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what I would probably do. That's how I would get the goods through customs.

[Tim Miller]

Last thing. You're not gonna like this one, but I'm just gonna do it. You're obviously thinking about running. Why not just do it? Why not just throw your hat in the ring? Why not just say it, eff it, see what happens? Why not just do it? It's a different world than it was in the old days. Why not just do it?

[Rahm Emanuel]

That's fair. But you've never run for office, have you?

[Tim Miller]

No. God, no.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. I've run six times, won six. Okay. One is I have a responsibility to think that I have something that nobody else has. Both talent wise, idea wise. I'm spending while everybody else, not everybody else, but a lot of people in the party are spending time on that end of the pool fighting Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. He's all in our brain. I'm going to spend my time. Here's what I would do on education, art, attendance, reading the truth. Here's what I would do on national service. Here's what I would do on national security. And I'm going to flush out how to fight for America, not just how to fight Donald Trump. And if I think I got something that nobody else has to say, I'll make that jump and I'll do it at the right time for both me, my candidacy, because I think that matters. And rather than just you go, just do it. Yeah, of course I'm thinking about it. But as a person who consults, you would know that you have to pick.

[Tim Miller]

I'm retired.

[Rahm Emanuel]

But you did. You would have to pick your time because timing matters. You have to pick your message and the time is wrong.

[Tim Miller]

Now here's my free consulting. I think you're probably right about that. But here's one thing, probably I think it is different. Here's the one thing that's really different than the 2007 primary that Obama ran in or the 92 one, which is that people just want to hear what you really think.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You think Let me ask you a question. Do I look shy to you?

[Tim Miller]

You don't.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

But you still have to deprogram yourself a little bit. You are still the D triple C chair. There's still these old habits. You asked me these questions and it's just like. That'd be my advice. It's just let it look loose. Let it rip, man. Let it rip. Just let it rip. I think that we're in a world that people like that.

[Rahm Emanuel]

How much did people pay you for your advice?

[Tim Miller]

Too much, based on my track record. So this is free. I'm giving you this advice for free.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I'll take it in stock.

[Tim Miller]

All right, brother, thank you for coming on the show, man. I really appreciate it. It's so good to meet you.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Can you do me one favor before I go?

[Tim Miller]

Of course. Yeah, anytime.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Okay. Because my daughter is on a ship and she's out in the Indo Pacific. I'll just leave it there.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Rahm Emanuel]

And since you. She was the first one to say dad here. He. He flipped you off with his yeti cup. Can you do that? Yeti cup on my key. Social media, that.

[Tim Miller]

What is your name? Oh, by the way, in the groom. These are pearls I wore. Do you know why? It's embarrassing. I'm going to tell you the embarrassing reason I'm in pearls because I was on TikTok and I was noticing that the 20 year old boys were wearing pearls and I was like, that is. I was like, that's cool. If I start doing that, there'll be no other 40 year old doing it. And so I'll be unique. And so I just. I have no good reason. I just stole it from the kids.

[Rahm Emanuel]

You have two things. One, you got to say happy anniversary. Amy, we're sorry for you. And two, Alana, we're really proud of what you're doing. Go. That's my request.

[Tim Miller]

Amy, happy anniversary to you. I don't know how you did it with this guy. I only had an hour and 10 minutes and I'm sick of him already. Alana, gosh, thank God you're doing something good in this world. And I appreciate you that you're out there serving this country while I'm here. Just hold the yeti flapping my jaw and I just want to say cheers to you. You drink that yeti cup out there on that ship, you keep your dad in line. I appreciate you. Your dad can be an asshole, but you're a great American. Cheers.

[Rahm Emanuel]

I love you, brother.

[Tim Miller]

Thanks so much to Rahm Emanuel. We'll be back tomorrow with another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. I will see you all then. Pe.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Checking it twice Gonna find out it's naughty or nice Coming in soon to a theater near you.

[Tim Miller]

The end.

[Rahm Emanuel]

Of the end the end of great Blue.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

[Rahm Emanuel]

SA.