S2 Ep1059: Sam Stein: The Divorce

Summary

Detailed Summary of The Bulwark Podcast: Season 2, Episode 1059 – "Sam Stein: The Divorce"

Release Date: June 6, 2025
Hosts: Tim Miller and Sam Stein
Description: In this episode, Tim Miller and Sam Stein delve into the tumultuous feud between President Donald Trump and Elon Musk, exploring its political ramifications and broader implications for American democracy. Amidst the political discourse, Tim shares a personal update about his ongoing divorce, adding a personal touch to the episode.

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1. Personal Update: Tim Miller's Divorce

[00:30] Tim Miller:
Tim begins the episode by sharing a personal and candid update about his messy divorce, setting a somber tone. He remarks, "I finish taping and then the messiest divorce in history happens," highlighting the emotional turmoil he's experiencing.

[00:51] Sam Stein:
Sam empathizes with Tim's situation, acknowledging the impact it has on their podcast dynamics.

2. The Feud Between President Trump and Elon Musk

Overview:
The core of the episode centers around the escalating conflict between former President Donald Trump and entrepreneur Elon Musk. Tim and Sam provide a minute-by-minute breakdown of the feud, analyzing tweets, social media exchanges, and public statements that have intensified tensions between the two figures.

Key Moments in the Feud:

• Initial Sparks:
  [02:08] Tim Miller:
  Tim references a clip by Erin Andrews discussing activity at the White House, segueing into the main feud topic. "But first, there is fresh scrutiny surrounding Joe Biden and a hardworking autopen."

• Elon Musk's Tweets:
  [03:22] Sam Stein:
  Commenting on Musk's criticism of Trump's balanced budget statements, Sam notes, "Harsh."

  [03:26] Tim Miller:
  Tim further elaborates on Musk's tweet questioning the creation of a new political party: "Is it time to create a new political party in America that actually represents the 80% in the middle?"

• Escalation of Hostilities:
  [04:24] Sam Stein:
  Sam describes the office atmosphere as Elon Musk's comments take a more aggressive tone.

  [06:12] Sam Stein:
  As the tensions escalate, Sam recounts Musk's allegation against Trump related to the NC files investigating Jeffrey Epstein, stating, "This feels like a Jared Moskowitz."

• Twitter Exchanges:
  [07:05] Sam Stein:
  In response to Trump's insults, Sam humorously imitates Trump's derogatory remarks towards Elon.

  [07:19] Tim Miller:
  Tim discusses Musk's retaliatory actions, including the decommissioning of SpaceX's Dragon spacecraft: "SpaceX will begin decommissioning its Dragon spacecraft immediately."

3. Political Implications of the Feud

Impact on the Republican Party:

• J.D. Vance's Position:
  [32:14] Tim Miller:
  Tim discusses Vice President J.D. Vance's role, noting his struggle to balance allegiance to Trump while navigating the growing feud with Musk. "Tim's analysis suggests that Vance must stay with Trump to maintain his political standing."

• Potential Alliances and Divisions:
  [17:46] Sam Stein:
  Sam highlights the challenges J.D. Vance faces as he represents overlapping interests between tech oligarchs and MAGA supporters, stating, "He's right in the middle of the Venn diagram."

• Steve Bannon's Involvement:
  [35:16] Sam Stein:
  The discussion shifts to Steve Bannon's alliance with J.D. Vance, emphasizing Bannon's disdain for Musk and his support for aggressive actions against him.

Legislative Impact:

• Deficit and Medicaid Bill:
  [22:39] Sam Stein:
  Sam introduces the topic of the controversial bill aimed at deficit reduction, which includes cuts to Medicaid and taxes for the wealthy. He posits that Musk's vocal opposition could influence Republican lawmakers hesitant about the bill's implications.

• Public Opinion and Voter Influence:
  [24:20] Sam Stein:
  The hosts speculate on how Musk's actions and statements might sway Republican voters and lawmakers, potentially leading to a divided party stance on the bill.

4. Broader Implications for American Democracy

Societal Concerns:

• Emotional Stability of Leaders:
  [15:33] Sam Stein:
  Sam expresses concern over the emotional instability of powerful leaders like Trump and Musk, stating, "It's incredibly concerning that these two men... are so emotionally unstable."

• Potential for Blackmail and Distracted Governance:
  [15:33] Tim Miller:
  Tim fears that the feud could lead to a situation where both leaders have leverage over each other, distracting them from effective governance.

Economic and Geopolitical Stability:

• Monetary Policy and Federal Reserve Relations:
  [48:59] Tim Miller:
  The discussion touches on Trump's recent criticisms of Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell, with thoughts on potential economic fallout if Trump undermines Powell's policies.

• Global Hotspots and External Threats:
  [51:34] Sam Stein:
  Sam highlights existing global tensions and economic vulnerabilities, emphasizing the risk of further instability due to domestic political feuds.

5. Final Thoughts and Conclusions

[60:06] Tim Miller:
Tim concludes the episode by urging listeners to find moments of joy amidst the chaos, despite the ongoing political turmoil and personal challenges.

[60:45] Sam Stein:
Sam echoes the sentiment, emphasizing the importance of laughter and maintaining perspective in the face of a "really dark" societal landscape.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tim Miller on the Divorce:
  [00:30] "The messiest divorce in history happens."

• Sam Stein on the Feud's Severity:
  [15:33] "It's incredibly concerning that these two men... are so emotionally unstable."

• Tim Miller on Vance’s Political Tightrope:
  [32:31] "He's earned the trust of the movement."

• Sam Stein on Political Alliances:
  [17:46] "He's right in the middle of the Venn diagram."

• Tim Miller on Economic Consequences:
  [49:54] "I think that the whole... interest rates are gonna be high."

• Sam Stein on Leadership Stability:
  [51:34] "The risk of further instability due to domestic political feuds."

• Tim Miller on Maintaining Joy:
  [60:45] "Enjoy it."

• Sam Stein on Finding Balance:
  [60:45] "It's important to laugh... we laugh at it. And... it's fine."

---

Conclusion

In this episode, Tim Miller and Sam Stein navigate through a complex web of political drama, personal strife, and societal concerns. The centerpiece is the escalating feud between President Trump and Elon Musk, a conflict with far-reaching implications for American politics and global stability. Amidst their incisive political analysis, Tim's personal disclosure about his divorce adds depth to the conversation, illustrating the balancing act between public discourse and private challenges. The episode serves as a comprehensive examination of the current political landscape, highlighting the vulnerabilities and potential shifts within the Republican Party and the broader implications for the nation's governance and societal well-being.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

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[Sam Stein]

Hey guys.

[Tim Miller]

It'S Erin Andrews from Calm down with Erin and Carissa. So they say you can't plan for the unexpected, but whoever said that obviously didn't know about Aflac. You probably know the Aflac duck, but you might not know what Aflac can do for you. For example, did you know they pay cash that can help with expenses health insurance doesn't cover? If you get sick or injured, Aflac pays cash that can be put towards co pays and deductibles to even non medical expenses like rent or your mortgage payments. It's completely up to you. Get help with expenses health insurance doesn't cover. Visit aflac.com to learn more. Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. We are coming at you live from D.C. because we have our fundraiser tonight free on Dree, which is now sold out at the Lincoln Theater. But we're we have a rally beforehand over at the Supreme Court at five o' clock. So hope to see some of y' all there. I am delighted to be here with my buddy Sam Stein, managing editor of the Bulwark. And what a great day for us to be together for this. Lots of stuff happening. The only thing that sucks is like the worst time for news to happen for me for this podcast is like the early afternoon. Cause we tape it late morning and then it goes out in the afternoon. I finish taping and then the messiest divorce in history happens.

[Sam Stein]

I know.

[Tim Miller]

So that was a little sad. But guess what? We we get to go through it minute by minute together. But before we do, obviously we got to start with the big news of the day. And so I just, I want to go to a quick clip and we'll get to the, you know, the lead story before we get to Musk and Trump.

[Erin Andrews]

But we begin tonight with a flurry.

[Tim Miller]

Of activity today at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. And yes, let not your heart be troubled. I will address the battle between President Trump and Elon Musk. I know it's of such great international importance. But first there is fresh scrutiny surrounding.

[Erin Andrews]

Joe Biden and a Hardworking auto pen.

[Tim Miller]

Take a look. There's your. A block of the Hannity show. The auto pen.

[Sam Stein]

Do you think there was like a debate before the show? Sean, we think we really need to do Elon.

[Tim Miller]

No, the autopen. Do we have anything on the Hunter laptop?

[Sam Stein]

How far back can we go? What Biden scandal can we get?

[Tim Miller]

Not a good sign. Not a good day over at Fox. All right, so so much shit happened. And we did a bunch of videos you guys have already seen. But for the pod Crew, I just wanna start. Thanks to our friends at the Independent for doing this. We're gonna do a minute by minute chronology of the feud and maybe just chime in with little thoughts as they come to you. All right, so it begins at 1:44 Quote, Musk posts a slew of tweets to X, including one asking, where is this guy today? Treating old Trump balanced budget statements. I missed this one. He then tweeted, the big ugly bill will increase the deficit.

[Sam Stein]

Harsh.

[Tim Miller]

By 2.5 trillion. So he starts kind of dips the toe.

[Sam Stein]

Probably should have workshopped that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, with the big. I've been doing the big fugly slut. Nobody seems to get that, though. Matt Iglesias didn't even laugh yesterday when I said big fugly slut. I know, it's tough. Not all my material lands. All right, then he goes on. He goes, is it time to create a new political party in America that actually represents the 80% in the middle?

[Sam Stein]

This. This is when in the office. I'm just gonna give you the office reactions. Cause you weren't here. We were like, how quickly is Nancy Jacobson? And no label's gonna call him up.

[Tim Miller]

I'm like, oh, wait. Rich white man wishes that there was a big party that represented him in the medal. One time I did a panel at the Aspen Institute and I had seven straight questions from Rich White. So we're like, why aren't there any parties that represent fiscal responsibility and social moderation? And I'm like, you know, so that wasn't Elon's best, but. But it escalates. Laura Loomer. 215 goes after Musk. Musk says, you might be making a mistake. I'm gonna be around longer than Trump.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Then 237, Trump attacks from Truth Social says Musk was wearing thin. And then. So he doesn't know what happened, but he just went crazy. Same thing he said about Putin. Remember that?

[Sam Stein]

He said that about Putin.

[Tim Miller]

Trump says a bad read on people, I guess.

[Sam Stein]

Didn't he put and he put wearing thin in quotations, which I was kind of curious.

[Tim Miller]

Wearing thin?

[Sam Stein]

Whose quote is that?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. Mention that he took away his EV mandate and that's what he might be mad about.

[Sam Stein]

This is when it was getting a little bit juicy. And in the office, we were like, oh, my. But we weren't freaking yet.

[Tim Miller]

Nobody was sitting up yet. Nobody had leaned forward yet.

[Sam Stein]

But I was refreshing X a lot.

[Tim Miller]

248. We talked about this the other day. The Musk rapid response element to this. Like, if this was a Trump feud versus John Thune.

[Sam Stein]

You and I talked about this. Comparing this to Jeb.

[Tim Miller]

It was like it would take four hours for John Thune to reply to anything. You know, you have to get your press conference. Musk is just fired. Eleven minutes after Trump attacks him, Musk hits back. Such an obvious lie. So sad. Then things went quiet for 22 minutes. It was all silent. People are like, oh, that's an interesting little dispute between this point in the office.

[Sam Stein]

We're like, okay, wow. But there we go. That's it. We're cool.

[Tim Miller]

3:10Pm the bomb. Musk alleges Trump appears in the NC files.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, this one in the office, people were screaming, like, legit screaming. It was like a. Oh, my God.

[Tim Miller]

Mark this post for the future. The truth will come out. Elon says that was a reply to his tweet. Files linked to the investigation of sex offender Jeffrey Epstein has emerged as a point of fixation. Oh, wait, hold on. Yeah, For Trump and his allies. Anyway, time to drop the really big bomb.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

All right, so that was 3. 10. 4. 10 after Twitter is insane. Almost an hour passes and Donald Trump bleeds out. The easiest way to save money in our budget, billions and billions of dollars, is to terminate Elon's government subsidies and contracts. I was always surprised that Biden didn't do it. That's a good hit.

[Sam Stein]

At this point. I went to the fridge and I got a soda and a little snack.

[Tim Miller]

I'm settling in now.

[Sam Stein]

I was like, this is gonna be a long day and I need to hydrate.

[Tim Miller]

I think the Trump hit in a vacuum, pretty good. Like threatening to take the money away. Good hit coming right after you're a pedo. I don't know, Donald. Maybe he's lost his fastball a little bit.

[Sam Stein]

What would you have done?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know.

[Sam Stein]

You're a pedo.

[Tim Miller]

Ketamine, adult fat fuck. Take away your ketamine, you can't even get hard. You have to inseminate your twin wives.

[Sam Stein]

Pete Trump would have gone right for the dick.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, okay. That was okay. Elon then replies, in light of the president's statement about cancellation of my government contract, SpaceX will begin decommissioning its Dragon spacecraft immediately.

[Sam Stein]

At this point, I got a little worried, honestly. I was like, are we gonna have a government? I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, so decent hit there. Then Trump goes on and defends the bill. The substance of the bill.

[Sam Stein]

Boring.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, really boring. 4 11. Boy, the musk leans in again. The Independent says he seems to agree. I would say he clearly agrees that Donald Trump should be replaced by Vice President J.D. vance.

[Sam Stein]

I think the word was yes.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, here it is. Ian Miles Chong, a Malaysian shitposter, posted, President vs Elon. My money's on Elon. Trump should be impeached and JD Vance should replace him. I wanna note here, Elon was not tagged in this tweet. So Elon is just like. It's like that smoking meme of Matthew McConaughey is just on X, just taking it all in. He sees this tweet where he's not tagged, quote, tweets it, yes, Trump should be impeached. I wanna get back to that in a little bit.426.

[Sam Stein]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Musk taxed the tariffs. Trump tariffs will cause a recession in the second half of the year.

[Sam Stein]

I'm like, how much ketamine is this man on?

[Tim Miller]

Musk is gonna have the biggest endorphin crash in history. I was looking at my phone, how many endorphins are firing? I was like, can you imagine being Elon? He's got four phones out. He's got no more. There's no way this guy's sleeping tonight.

[Sam Stein]

How many times has he peed because of the ketamine? At this point? Five? Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

7:50. So a couple hours go by, Musk says, kill the bill. Call your senator, call your congressman. Bankrupt America is not ok. And then Musk's last post for the day is a repost that says, this is why Republicans will likely lose the House in 26 and Democrats will spend two years investigating and impeaching President Trump.

[Sam Stein]

Well, that was not his last post for the day. His last post of the feud. He then tried to kind of dial it back and he. It was a very funny moment where there was, like, speaking of being weirdly following weird accounts on Twitter, he replied to, like, someone with, like, 180 followers who's like, let's tone it down a little bit. He's like, you're right. I'm not gonna decommission the dragon. Like, where did find this account? Like, he wasn't even responding to you. Like, where did that come from?

[Tim Miller]

I'm telling you, Elon is just like. Elon is in the mainframe of X. Like, he is like. It's like he is trying to become the singularity. Maybe he is receiving.

[Sam Stein]

He's got the neural link in his brain.

[Tim Miller]

He's just getting expos fed to him.

[Sam Stein]

Imagine I think about this every now and then, but imagine you're a Tesla board member and you're watching this and you're like, okay, is this man running our company? Like, what's he doing? I would be like, you need to. You need to focus on us.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, it's kind of a side point, but the Tesla stock was going down most of the day pretty significantly. Weirdly, it went up when Musk accused Trump of being a pedo. I don't know if the market saw that and was like, ooh, Musk might have more power here than we thought in this fight. I'm not a professional stock person, this is not financial advice. But I found that interesting because being in the White House has not really been very good for Tesla. I don't know why the market reacted so negatively. Do you have thoughts on that?

[Sam Stein]

Well, I think the prospect that Musk could be nuked, literally nuked. Although I guess in theory, if you're an investor at this point, you want the guy to get gone. Let's focus on building cars a little bit. No, I don't try to make sense of this. This is nonsensical.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, yeah, maybe it's. JVL wrote an emergency triad last night that everybody should read. And one of the things that he pointed out is like, Trump does, and there's a worst case scenario for Elon that's pretty bad on his financially. And maybe that is the thinking here, where he ends up in the sour spot where nobody's buying. Like the libs aren't buying, the Teslas aren't buying Teslas, the maga's aren't buying his ugly ass truck.

[Sam Stein]

Trump is apparently gonna sell the one he bought. The red one.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that was Naxis in the morning, so yeah, so that's it. There's little SpaceX stuff I want to get into, but I don't think that's my top takeaway. We'll get to that in a second. So did you get a good night's sleep last night or you take a melatonin?

[Sam Stein]

Not really. I mean, it wasn't like scrolling through it or anything, but I had been hopped up on it all day. Not to the extent that Elon had, but it was definitely pouring through my veins and I was excited about it.

[Tim Miller]

So now with the J to breathe, you know, I think that there's some people that are more excited. Bill Kristol's a downer this morning. He's feeling more like that Trump will come out of this ahead. Your global take.

[Sam Stein]

Bill convinced me. I gotta be honest. Bill definitely convinced me. So Bill's take is that, well, that Trump has. I think this is Bill's word. Trump has Elon's balls or something like in a vice.

[Tim Miller]

Bill, Crystal.

[Sam Stein]

He said Trump. Yeah. You can read it in morning shots.

[Tim Miller]

Did you not edit? I just assumed that was an edited live.

[Sam Stein]

No, I edited. What I edited is I had. And he has big balls, but Bill took that out. So.

[Tim Miller]

Big balls. The person.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, big balls. Person. Fuck Bill. No, but Bill's convincing because I think here, I mean, it's basic. Like, Trump could at any moment just say, you know what? We are gonna nationalize Space Force. And by the way, we need to launch an investigation into this because we don't want someone so unstable running these companies who's a government contractor, and there's plenty of government levers. And if you're sitting there being like, well, that would be really abusive of the government for Trump to do something like that. I beg you to look at what Trump's done. So I think Elon. Well, I don't know if Elon's rational enough to recognize that he's kind of screwed here. And Elon's cards, I think he basically played yesterday. You are a pedophile and you are in the mc. He threw the hay. I don't know. Does he have a bigger haymaker than that?

[Tim Miller]

We don't know.

[Sam Stein]

We don't know.

[Tim Miller]

He's got some picks. I mean, Mose the black eye. Maybe Trump punched him. You know, who knows? I think there's a lot of stuff behind the scenes. We don't know exactly what he could have. And he's been sleeping at Mar a Lago in the White House. That's true. So I don't know. He might have insight on Trump's private behavior that other people don't have. So I think he could have more cards. It's a compelling case that I think Trump certainly is gonna win the Elon fight in the sense of, like, who ends up with more political power, like, et cetera. Trump has a base of support. Just as we were joking earlier, the idea that some rich Silicon Valley guy is gonna start a party of moderates, it's like, we tried that, buddy. It's called the Innovation Party. It's gonna be Zuckerberg and Jim Bandai. Yeah, we've been down that road.

[Sam Stein]

Andrew Yang tried it.

[Tim Miller]

Andrew Yang tried it like that. So I don't think that's gonna work. I think that the political base wants the MAGA culture war stuff. I think that the threats to Trump here are also pretty real. And I know that you might wanna diminish it. And this is maybe my critique of your old pals in the mainstream media is like, it's hard to contextualize this stuff appropriately because it's so crazy. And you're just like, how do I cover this? What do I do? But it's like, Donald Trump's top advisor and top donor, the key man that helped him get elected, thinks that he should be impeached and removed from the presidency. Like, that is a massive story. And I think it's.

[Sam Stein]

I'm not saying it's not.

[Tim Miller]

I know you don't think it is, but it's like, because of, like, they benefit from the clownishness of this. Right. You know what I mean? If this, like, let's just imagine a different world where, like, six months into the Biden presidency, who would be the Elon equivalent? Yeah, I was thinking somebody closer. Advisor Anita or Mike Donilon or something. Yeah, sure, whoever. Some Biden adviser writes an op ed that's like, I think that the President should be impeached and removed. He doesn't have his faculties. He's been lying to you about his health.

[Sam Stein]

And, and he's on a pedophile's.

[Tim Miller]

And he's on a pedophile's flight list. Like, I do think that the front page story of the Post the next day would be Biden's top advisor calls for impeachment and removal.

[Sam Stein]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

And that didn't happen today, was it?

[Sam Stein]

Not on the front page? I mean, there was plenty of stories about it.

[Tim Miller]

There's plenty of stories about it, but.

[Sam Stein]

You'Re right, but it's kind of in.

[Tim Miller]

A can't fight kind of way. Right. And so anyway, I think that that alone.

[Sam Stein]

The problem is we're so conditioned to the circus with Trump that it's like, ah, well, it's another chapter. But if you object. And this, I think I said this online the other day when this was all transpiring, which is like, I'm deeply, genuinely, like, entertained by all this. I'm also like, really frightened by it.

[Tim Miller]

It's concerning.

[Sam Stein]

It's incredibly concerning that these two men, who are incredibly the most powerful two men in the world, probably among them, really are so emotionally unstable, have so much potential blackmail over each other. Are so distracted.

[Tim Miller]

Again, Friedrich Mertz was in the Lincoln Bedroom while this was happening. Just as a quick aside, the Chancellor of Germany. Imagine being this guy and he's trying to have some te. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

He's like, yo, I'm trying to, like, save Ukraine. And I was like, hold on, I'm going to threaten the government contracts of SpaceX. And then it's. And then like, we didn't. Again, the circus things, like, we're not even going to talk about it. But yesterday with Mertz, he was like, you must have been really upset when the Nazis lost. And I was like, holy shit. But, like, that doesn't register.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Anyways, my point is there's something really underneath all the show is some really, like, obvious sirens about where we are as a society.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. No, the society's in a bad place and so is the White House. So I guess my point is. So that's just in a vacuum. In any other world, the idea that your top advisor would say you should be impeached and removed under a pedophile is very bad for you politically. Maybe that won't. Maybe that won't help for Trump's. Polls are gonna go up. You know, it's never really happened. Karl Rove, I don't believe, ever accused George W. Of being.

[Sam Stein]

I don't think so.

[Tim Miller]

Of being a pedo. So, you know, anyway, I think that also the political power, this political fight between the techno fascists and the MAGA is real. There's like a power struggle. Trump obviously has more political power in the sense of there are more voters who care about him. If there was a primary between Trump and Musk, he would win 85 to 15 or 90 to 10. But power in the different sense, not the direct voter sense. Like, you know, obviously there's a lot of influence in Silicon Valley. It benefited Trump a lot. I know that it gave the Democrats this opportunity to be like oligarchs or whatever. But it also, like, really helped Trump that the owners of all the biggest communications platforms were sucking up to him and that These huge donors, VCs were sucking up to him. And the crypto guys, it was a.

[Sam Stein]

Different type of oligarch, too. It was like, these guys represent the future. They're innovation oligarchs. Right. Not old banker oligarchs.

[Erin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

So it felt like a little different political.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And so I think it gave him a lot of some benefits, just direct benefits and, like, how their platforms treated him, et cetera, et cetera. But also, like future political opportunity for maga. Right. This idea that, like, you could coalesce, you know, the cletuses and the evangelical Christians and like the traditional Republicans, and also add in these kind of non, like, ideological. Really like tech bro kind of crowd. Like, that was an important add to the Trump coalition this time for 2016, and that definitely feels threat right now.

[Sam Stein]

So it's funny now that you're just articulating it out loud, but it's bringing me back a little bit to what Democratic politics actually used to be, which is you have this pretty wide tent, and usually the main players either have to sort of align themselves with the moneyed interest or the populists. And that was not always the case necessarily, with Republicans. But this is the result of an expanding coalition. And so Trump's real talent has been he's managed to bridge the two. And I don't know, that might be the ultimate thing here, is that it might not be bridgeable anymore because really, it's like, you know, you have Steve Bannon basically telling Trump that he does in fact, need to nationalize Space Force and, oh, by the way, maybe deport Elon Musk. Like, at this point we're getting to that. Yeah. And we're going to get into that. But that is true. And it's forcing. It may force these, the Republican lawmakers to kind of take a side in this fight in a way that they haven't really had to choose this type of stuff before.

[Tim Miller]

A couple other, I think, top implications of where Musk has a little bit more some power. Number one is, I guess it's Politico. Your old pals are reporting that there's gonna be a call today. They're gonna try to do a truce.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, but that's been kind of debunked.

[Tim Miller]

Has it?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. So Trump made a couple. First of all, this is fun because Trump's like, calling Every reporter in D.C. whose cell phone number he said he's called.

[Tim Miller]

Who has he called today so far?

[Sam Stein]

Just that we know he's called Bob Costa, Dana Bash, Dasha Burns, and Jonathan Karl. So at least four people, they've talked.

[Tim Miller]

To Trump on the show. Is your phone on? Do not disturb. You might want to leave it on just in case missed it.

[Sam Stein]

No. And each call, he's telling every single reporter, I'm not even thinking About Elon, which is like self refuting. Don't worry, I'm not thinking about it. Just telling you I'm not thinking about you.

[Tim Miller]

It's like the guy in the banana suit. Like we're looking for the guy, don't.

[Sam Stein]

Know who did it. But he's also dismissed the idea that he's gonna have a phone call with Elon. So I don't think there's gonna be that today.

[Tim Miller]

And I also just. So generally, I guess my point was, even if they did get to a truce, which I think is possible, who knows that they would try to. It's not really sustainable. And this I think goes to the Elon psychology. There have been kind of two schools of thought on Elon from the start. There was one that this was a huge corruption scheme and that he wanted from his AI whatever to gather as much information as possible from the government. He wanted to expand Starlink and he was using this to enrich himself. And there's maybe some overlap between these theories, but like that was his core intention. Then there's another theory which is that his brain has been broken by his own app and like the fact that his daughter was trans and then he gets on X and that he's doing all these drugs and that his brain is broken and he is just a rabid poster. And he ended up getting radicalized and MAGA'd and that's why he's doing this. And he doesn't actually give a fuck about his companies or the money. And I was always more in camp too. He just to me, reads like somebody who's completely unstable and has lost his mind. And I know some of these people, I have some of them in my life. People who've gone taken the MAGA pill, rather than somebody who's like really strategically trying to manipulate the government. And if that is right, if the theory that his brain is broken is right, he can't truce because Elon's online all day. And so something's gonna happen. They can have a short term truce, but then something will happen that Elon will.

[Sam Stein]

You were joking about this when you said something about posters.

[Tim Miller]

Posters are gonna post. Elon's a poster. Elon's gonna post.

[Sam Stein]

And so you've seen posters that you know of Neera.

[Tim Miller]

Neera's the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Neera Tandem.

[Sam Stein]

But she's kind of getting back in the game.

[Tim Miller]

She's getting back in the game a little bit. She Free Yield issue at center for American Progress was An epic kind of Hillary poster. Neo lib Hillary poster. Like, really, really strong game. And then went to work for Biden and Chilled. I don't believe that Nero was doing, like, a ketamine meth snowball. And so I think it was easier for her to reform maybe, than Nilan.

[Sam Stein]

You don't really know Nero then.

[Tim Miller]

And so I don't see it. And this bill. And so this takes me to my second point, which is that this bill is gonna continue going through.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

It's created real political problems for the bill. Like, does it mean that it won't pass? I don't know. But, like, it's made it much more fraught. And you really think that Elon, who's like on Twitter 20 hours a day is gonna not shitpost this bill as it continues to go through the process? Obviously, he's gonna keep shitposting it now.

[Sam Stein]

And there's certain Rubicons he's crossed that you can't uncross.

[Tim Miller]

Shame on you. If you support this bill.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Call your lawmaker. But I was thinking more like, once you say, this man's on the Epstein list, I don't think you can put that genie back in a bottle. I also think.

[Tim Miller]

And the VP did say Trump might be Hitler.

[Sam Stein]

That's true.

[Tim Miller]

It's possible to get the genie back in the bottle as Trump.

[Sam Stein]

I think that's true. I guess kind of got lost a little bit in this, but probably something that will bother Trump is that he claimed credit for Trump winning, and Trump does not ever want to hear something like that. So, you know, I think Trump will be aggrieved about that. I think ultimately, like, the effect on the bill is not that it's going to, like, convince lawmakers to vote against it. I think. And you and I talked about this. I think what it does is it creates a bit of space for lawmakers who are already not for it to say, you know what? I kind of agree that we need to do more. And, like, maybe we should pump the brakes a little bit and, like, let's get more deficit reduction here. And.

[Tim Miller]

And then does Elon going so crazy make that actually harder for some of the Republicans?

[Sam Stein]

Yes, there's a. Sure. Surely. Yeah. If he's, like, totally.

[Tim Miller]

Elon was, like, narrow focused on the deficit, maybe the, you know, the Freedom Caucus guys might have been like, I'm with Elon. But if he' Trump is a pedophile who should be removed from office. Makes it a little harder.

[Sam Stein]

I think that's right.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, Elon's out there. His takes on Trump are now more extreme than any MSNBC primetime host. There's nobody on MSNBC primetime who has said that Trump should be removed.

[Sam Stein]

Primetime. And you said that you might get like Trump might go after the network.

[Tim Miller]

You get a call from the boss.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, it would be bad. Yeah. It's not something that normal people say.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So Republicans, it makes it harder for them to be with him, but he.

[Sam Stein]

Is still rich and he does still have the capacity to like amplify X in your favor. So let's say you're just like random Freedom Caucus member who isn't in love with the bill and you could now say, okay, you know what, I agree on the principles that he's talking about. And then Musk starts boosting you and he makes you into a hero. He throws a bunch of money behind you. I'm not saying it's gonna happen. But now that is a component of this legislative debate.

[Tim Miller]

I think it's also. We discussed this a little bit before us all went down with Iglesias yesterday. But he is very focused on how do you raise the salience of this bill. Cuz his point is like this is unpopular. So if you get to the Democrats thinking on this like, well that's the problem. Cutting taxes for the rich and cutting Medicaid is not popular. And so does just Elon talking about how awful it is make people who otherwise wouldn't even be paying attention to this like aware of this bill. Maybe that's harmful for the bill.

[Sam Stein]

So the issue for Democrats, I think is that what Elon doesn't like about this bill is not what they give a shit. I mean like they have to say for taxation.

[Tim Miller]

Sure, but just like he's not even talking about drawing attention to an unpopular thing is maybe, but he feels like.

[Sam Stein]

Being like it is just irresponsible for us to cut Medicaid like this.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

Democrats will be like, hell yeah, that's fine. But that's not what he's saying. And so it becomes a little bit of a bank shot. I think Edgar Andrew Egger in today's Morning Shots sort of made the case. Well, you can make it about like these two men who are in a dick measuring contest are just basically trying to figure out how to like a.

[Tim Miller]

Really small ruler for that contest. I don't know, it's like one of those like preschool kids roll ups. You can't get a regulation size.

[Sam Stein]

Okay. It's a mom and pop podcast. Just make it about them being like chaos agents who you're Entrusting them to like handle your health care and your taxes and you sort of like tied to their general unpopularity. But I don't know, I mean, Democrats, Democrats should be like, look, he thinks Trump's on the Epstein list. Investigate. And I think the Oversight committee is doing that. So we'll see.

[Tim Miller]

Hearing about Aretha, our little dictator, roaming the streets of our neighborhood, roaming the Pride lands, then just only coming to the house for food and shelter, not providing the type of love that I would think that the animal would want to provide us, given all the Smalls food that we're providing it. That's okay. That's a cat. That's what cats are. And my kid likes it, my husband likes it. So that's good enough for me. This podcast is sponsored by Smalls. Smalls cat food is protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your fridge. And it's delivered right to your door. That's why Katz.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. To get 35% off plus an additional 50% off your first order, head to Smalls.com and use our promo code TheBullWerk for a limited time only. Smalls was started back in 2017 by a couple of guys home cooking cat food in small batches for their friends. A few short years later, they've served millions of meals to cats across the U.S. the best part about the Smalls of the Aretha is it's not a full time animal. Cat roams, as I mentioned. You know, sometimes Toulouse wants to play with it and it's like, well, how can you convince a cat to come? You can't put it on a leash, right? She takes out the little Small Streets bag and shakes them. Shakes the bag. Cat comes running. It's a great treat. Cat likes it, kid is happy. What more could you ask for? What are you waiting for? Give your cat the food they deserve for a limited time because you are a Bulwark podcast listener. You can get 35% off smalls plus an additional 50% off your first order by using my code, thebullwerk. That's an additional 50% off when you head to smalls.com and use promo code thebullwerk. Again, that's promo code the bulwark for an additional 50% off your first Order plus free [e-mail] should somebody file the Elon Musk articles of impeachment? Maybe. That feels like a Jared Moskowitz.

[Sam Stein]

That would be a Moskowitz. He's the one member who'd be like, yeah, that's.

[Tim Miller]

If you want to troll, go to Mosquito or sri. What's his name? Sri. The one congressman who tried to say.

[Sam Stein]

He tried to impeach me. They were like, please do not do that.

[Tim Miller]

It's only. SRI and Elon are the only guys out there. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm a little bit. But I was in your camp yesterday on, like, this isn't that helpful for Democrats because he's focusing on the debt and deficit rather than the really unpopular stuff. But I don't know, man. Part of this now, I just think it trickles out into the world in a way that it wouldn't have otherwise and that people who do not really care about.

[Sam Stein]

How do they view it?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Just they start to feel like, wait a minute. Okay, so what is this thing that they're fighting about? And it, like, increases the debt a ton, and it cuts taxes for rich people, and it cuts Medicaid. Like, who's for that? Stephen Miller is really, like, the only person who seems passionately for this bill that I can tell. And so I think that if you get that out into the ether more, I don't know, I think maybe it can be an opportunity for Democrats.

[Sam Stein]

The opportunity is to just sow dissent in the Republican ranks.

[Erin Andrews]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

It's like, get the party's base upset with Trump for abandoning fiscal conservatism, and you divide the opposition, and that's your benefit. I don't think it's like, oh, we're gonna, like, turn people into, like, staunch defenders of Medicaid. Because what Elon's doing. I don't think that's really what.

[Tim Miller]

I think it also puts a little bit of a damper on, like, Republicans going around talking about how great it is.

[Sam Stein]

Yes, 100%.

[Tim Miller]

So I think that hurts their sales pitch for the bill.

[Sam Stein]

So that's the so division thing. It's like, if you have even, like, 10%, 20% of the party, it's like, actually, this book kind of sucks. I agree with Elon. Then it becomes more problematic, and then you'll start to see in the polls that it, you know, the popularity of the bill goes down, and then that creates its own news cycle, and you start seeing a little bit of snowball effect, which is why I think they're trying to rush this thing through. I mean, they need. They cannot spare any time on this.

[Tim Miller]

Packages by Expedia. You were made to be rechargeable. We were made to package flights, hotels, and hammocks for Less Expedia Made to travel.

[Erin Andrews]

This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. Hi, I'm Will and I created IQ Bar to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low sugar, brain and body fuel. Millions of people rely on our protein bars and hydration mixes to win their day. Turns out Thomas Keller, Michelin star chef of the French Laundry, is one of them. We've teamed up with Chef Keller to craft a bar and hydration mix that marry world class flavor with exceptional nutrition. Our special edition salted caramel chip bar delivers all the decadence of a fine dining dessert, plus protein, minus sugar and carbs. And our zero sugar yuzu mango hydration mix packs an authentic citrusy punch and a mental boost from lion's mane and magnesium. The best part, 10% of sales go directly to Chef Keller's non profit that supports aspiring young chefs. Great taste, great nutrition, great mission. Total no brainer. Go to iqbar.com today and enter promo code KELLER20 to get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free. That's iqbar.com, promo code KELLER20.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, a couple side journeys. J.D. vance, the Vice president, who is like the human that most represents the kind of concentric, the overlapping circles between the tech fascists and the cult maga fascists. Yeah, he's right in the middle of the Venn diagram. And so it's a little bit of a sticky wicket for him politically because he's gotta stay with his patron, Trump. But, you know, I mean, assuming that there's an open primary in 2028 and like, he's gonna want the tech guys to be with him, you know, be with him. Peter Thiel was his main patron. So how does he play this? He's posted two posts about this. One tweet was a selfie with him and Theo Vaughn. I guess he's gonna do the Theo Vaughn pod, which as soon as I saw that, my heart sank because I was like, God, this means I have to spend two hours watching JD Vance and Theo Vaughn. Yeah, so that sucks.

[Sam Stein]

Cracking some weird jokes and laughing uncomfortably.

[Tim Miller]

The other one was President Trump has done more than any person in my lifetime to earn the trust of the movement he leads. I'm proud to stand beside him.

[Sam Stein]

You notice he wasn't mentioned in that?

[Tim Miller]

Elon? No, it was kind of limp, I thought.

[Sam Stein]

Kind of exceedingly limp. I mean, Trump's out there being like, Elon's gone mad and crazy. Like, this guy needs to get off those drugs and. And JD's just like, I like President Trump. That's pretty lame. I'd expect more from my vp.

[Tim Miller]

He's earned the trust of the movement. And I guess what he's trying to say is that people should stick with Trump. I guess that's what he's trying to say is like, again, what is that?

[Sam Stein]

That's like a very defensive defense of Trump. It's like, if you really. You should have said, elon's totally wrong. Trump is the man, and this is bullshit. And I'm sad that Elon's having this breakdown. That would be a normal statement.

[Tim Miller]

But, yeah, I don't know. And it also feels like it could be said about kind of anybody. It was not a very. So the JD Thing, in the end, what will matter for JD Is if this administration is a total disaster or not, and if he can stay in Trump's good graces. And that's basically it. Those are essentially the two things that matter to him. I don't think that at the end of the day, if I expect the next three years to be a total fucking shit show and that people will be ready to move on, I could be wrong from that. I've been wrong before. We'll see. But let's assume it's just normal crazy. Like, there's no big recession, bad shit happens. But, like, within the normal bounds of football, you know, of Trumpy football, just.

[Sam Stein]

Every now and then, the top advisor.

[Tim Miller]

Calls for an impeachment. The normal bounds. Well, I mean, they stormed the Capitol last time and got reelected. So I'm just trying to set the Trumpy bounds. And I guess. Let me rephrase it. People's lives aren't materially hurt like MAGA people. Immigrants lives are materially hurt. Lots of people. But MAGA people's lives aren't materially hurt. And Trump sticks with him. And Trump steps aside normally and he runs. It's gonna be very tough to beat. You know what I mean? And the tech guys will know he's one of them, right? So I don't know that it's quite as sticky as it seems. And I think that the play for him is pretty clear. He's got to stick with Daddy Trump. And it would have to be pretty ugly, I think, to blow back on that.

[Sam Stein]

And I think the general lesson is that everything is ephemeral in Trump years, right? It's like everything that we think is massively consequential eventually recedes into our memories. Like, three weeks ago, we thought the Qatari airline gift was going to be a huge scandal. He just accepted the plan. And we moved on.

[Tim Miller]

I haven't moved on.

[Sam Stein]

You've moved on.

[Tim Miller]

Have I?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Spiritually, I think you have. Jd.

[Tim Miller]

I feel really read by that because, honestly, I kind of have. I don't give a fuck about the guitar he played. I actually hope I go back to my initial thing.

[Sam Stein]

We were talking about how this one is gonna stick.

[Tim Miller]

I was not. That was not me. Fine.

[Sam Stein]

I thought it was, but we were like, oh, this one's breaking. This one's breaking through.

[Tim Miller]

That does not sound like me at all. That was not me. Fine.

[Sam Stein]

Me.

[Tim Miller]

Might have been you. It might have been you on your the weeknd hit on MSNBC.

[Sam Stein]

I do. So JD's just got. I think JD probably knows this, too. I mean, JD was out there saying Haitians were eating dogs again.

[Tim Miller]

It's a little harder to weather the storm if Elon keeps shitposting.

[Sam Stein]

It's a little harder to weather the storm if people are suffering because of your policies, including the MAGA people. If coronavirus hits and, like, there's 20 million unemployed overnight, that's when it's hard to, you know, weather the storm.

[Tim Miller]

Fingers crossed. All right. Couple other side plots. You had mentioned it earlier that the Bannon of it. We have a. There's a strange JVL Steve Bannon alliance that is developing. I know it makes me uncomfortable to even mention, but I want to hear Bannon and then we'll talk about it.

[Sam Stein]

And for any fanboys that still exist while you're wrapping up in your cape tonight, understand on Doge, there was. He didn't find any fraud. There's plenty of fraud out there. This is President Trump's first complaint. Was this all bs, right? With the, With. With the, with the Doge, the acts should. That President Trump should be taking immediately. I think when he threatens to take one of the big programs out of SpaceX. President Trump tonight should sign an executive order calling for the Defense Production act to be called in SpaceX and seize SpaceX tonight before midnight.

[Tim Miller]

Seize SpaceX tonight.

[Sam Stein]

It didn't happen. For the record, they did not.

[Tim Miller]

SpaceX has not seized. That's bold from Bannon. JVL has been calling for a while. I think even during Biden times, he'll correct me that he did so again in the triad, which people should go read on TheBlork.com to nationalize SpaceX for a little bit. Maybe less cheeky reasons than Bannon does, but, like, very legit reasons.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, Elon basically proved JVL's point when he said, oh, I'm Gonna decommission the dragon. It's like, oh, you're gonna. One man can just, you know, decide that we're gonna like leave astronauts abandoned in space. Is that really in our national interest to have all our space policy kind of at the whims of one ketamine infused nut job?

[Tim Miller]

No. Good. I would like. Maybe we need to bring in a space expert on YouTube to give me some. I'd like to see some policy options put in front of me if President Tim was out there. Because the word nationalized gets me a little.

[Sam Stein]

Of course you don't like it.

[Tim Miller]

I get uncomfortable if I hear the word nationalized. I don't like seas. I really don't like seas. So when Bannon wants to seize something.

[Sam Stein]

Incorporate into the government.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I like that word, incorporate. Here's the other thing. SpaceX has done better than NASA. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

BARRY OVER here is a big proponent. He thinks it's broke through the cartel.

[Tim Miller]

It's done better. That's just a fact. You don't have to like it. You don't have to like Elon. So I don't think that we should take our terrible, shitty space program and take over Elon's successful one. So is there a middle ground? I guess is what I'm looking for.

[Sam Stein]

I don't know. I'm not an expert on law. If you could ideally, like, put in the government had the power to like put in a different CEO, I hereby declare you, like, not CEO.

[Tim Miller]

Can we have a guy from the government in like the corner office just watching Elon?

[Sam Stein]

Don't touch your pillow.

[Tim Miller]

What was in the office where they put Milton down in the basement? Can we just like put a Milton in SpaceX and just be like, when big decisions happen, you gotta bring Milton up.

[Sam Stein]

Or you just create like a Truman show type system where Elon thinks he's running SpaceX and he's not.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't know. But it makes you a little uncomfortable that the War Room and the Bulwark are calling for the same thing. But JBL's arguments have been very like, legit and policy based for a while.

[Sam Stein]

He also adds, like, I mean, his point is it's gonna have to happen and it's better that it happens with Donald Trump doing it than Joe Biden or whoever else is a Democrat.

[Tim Miller]

I don't have the audio of this, but Bannon had a couple other suggestions. Bannon has never liked Elon. If anybody was. I know all the libs thought that yesterday was your best day. It was our best Day, the resistance. Nobody was having a better day yesterday than Steve Bannon. He was literally a pagan shit. I mean, he was rolling around.

[Sam Stein]

Dude is on NPR this morning.

[Tim Miller]

He's, like, doing the right. Rubbing his nipples between the three shirts. He's hated Elon for a long time, and so he loves us. And so he was chiming.

[Sam Stein]

He might have put on a fourth collared shirt.

[Tim Miller]

It got so hot. He was chiming in on how Elon should maybe be deported. There's another strange alliance. Congressman Adam Smith of Washington also suggested Democratic congressman. So maybe a little bit over his skis, but I don't know. I feel similar to this as I do about the Epstein situation. It does seem to me to be true that Elon was an illegal immigrant in the country. And maybe DHS should look into that in the same way that it does seem to be true that Donald Trump was involved in a very deep way with Jeffrey Epstein and maybe has covered up some of his involvement, and that should be looked into. I kind of think that those are both legitimate. They're trolls and legitimate. What do you think?

[Sam Stein]

I mean, do I have to respond?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you do have to respond.

[Sam Stein]

I think I'm not ready to go down these paths.

[Tim Miller]

You don't think that DHS Secretary Kristi Noem should look into Elon's immigration on a. If Susie from Missouri or whatever?

[Sam Stein]

Do I think I would enjoy watching it all transpire? Yes. I would go and get another seltzer and some popcorn. I'd sit back and hit refresh on X. I think when we have the government targeting critics and deporting them, that's a problem. But maybe I'm.

[Tim Miller]

I'm against that, too. I'm against the government targeting critics and deporting them again. I will say, though, that they've set a policy in this administration. They have.

[Sam Stein]

What's good for the goose, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And their policy is basically like, no exceptions on immigration rules.

[Sam Stein]

Does it apply to people who came here lately but have since become citizens?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I mean, they've been taking random, like, ladies that have been in the. Working at diners, working in this country.

[Sam Stein]

Elon with Ms. 13 transposed on his knuckles. Look, we didn't see it when he was at Doge, but it was random.

[Tim Miller]

They've been taking, you know, they took the high school kids who are on the honor roll.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, no, no doubt. I'm not saying they're clean. I'm just saying just.

[Tim Miller]

They're going through everybody's files.

[Sam Stein]

Sure, sure. I mean, yeah. Let's see if it works.

[Tim Miller]

What do you think about the white Africaners? Do you think they have anything to worry about right now?

[Sam Stein]

Would he come back in through the white Africana refugee program?

[Tim Miller]

It was a great day on the X platform. I know that makes some people uncomfortable, but it was.

[Sam Stein]

Let's actually do this yesterday. Obviously. We was a great day on X. Yeah. And I might guess that it was the best day in a long time. What was your best?

[Tim Miller]

The best day ever was when Trump got Covid.

[Sam Stein]

That was a crazy day.

[Tim Miller]

Trump getting Covid was the best day on X. Or Twitter. Was Twitter then. And it was the best day by far. It's hard to even think of a close second. Honestly, that one was so much better than everything else. But I'll have to. I'm sure when he was flown to.

[Sam Stein]

Walter Reed and we were like, I.

[Tim Miller]

Have a few text chains that are gonna be disappointed in me, so please nominate for me some other.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, we should come back and circle back on the best days.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. Well, my two favorite posts yesterday. One was this is like the Kendrick vs Drake beef with two Drakes. I really enjoyed that. And the other one was Trump's new policy towards white Afrikaners. And it was that guy jumping around going, kill the bar.

[Sam Stein]

There were a lot of good stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Those were both good.

[Sam Stein]

The meme of Trump on the Tesla. I got this before Elon went crazy.

[Tim Miller]

That was good. So do you think the white Africaners should feel a little nervous maybe?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, probably their champion is no longer there. All those ghost people, are they gonna be taunting?

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of white Africaners, is David Sachs. Do we know whose side David Paul Ball Sachs is on? Is he posted? Okay, we're look to see if David Ball Sax.

[Sam Stein]

There are a lot of people who are going to be caught in the middle here.

[Erin Andrews]

This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. Hi, I'm Will and I created IQ Bar to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low sugar, brain and body fuel. Millions of people rely on our protein bars and hydration mixes to win their day. Turns out Thomas Keller, Michelin star chef of the French Laundry is one of them. We've teamed up with Chef Keller to craft a bar and hydration mix that marry world class flavor with exceptional nutrition. Our special edition salted caramel chip bar delivers all the decadence of a fine dining dessert, plus protein minus sugar and carbs. And our zero sugar yuzu mango hydration mix packs an authentic citrusy punch and a mental boost from lion's mane and magnesium. The best part 10% of sales go directly to Chef Keller's nonprofit that supports aspiring young chefs. Great taste, great nutrition, great mission. Total no brainer. Go to iqbar.com today and enter promo code KELLER20 to get 20% off all IQ Bar products, plus free shipping. That's iqbar.com promo code KELLER20.

[Tim Miller]

All right, we have an important final segment on the Commerce Secretary that's gonna be pretty good, but I have a couple other side plots. There's been some discussion. Is there an Elon Lib redemption arc possible where Elon decides to go whole hog? He's on this podcast. By Labor Day, he says Trump's been wrong. He has always cared about the environment. He also has always cared about the debt and deficit. And he still has some concerns about the trans thing, but other than that, he pretty much has seen the error of his ways. And him and Bill Gates are gonna go to Africa together. Is that possible? That's fantasy. Right?

[Sam Stein]

Well, your podcast guest yesterday met Iglesias, proposed maybe, you know, some sort of detente there.

[Tim Miller]

An armistice.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Again, I'm a moving target here because I initially was like, of course you let him back in. You know, the enemy. The enemy, Right. But then I kind of thought about it, and he is so crazy, and he's so unpopular, and he also, like, did, like, so much damage. You know, just. Even the USAID stuff alone, it's like, you can't let someone like that back in. Like, what would it say about your moral values? It doesn't mean you can't use them strategically, and I'm assuming they will. Right. Like they should. But, like, you know, maybe if you want to take some of his cash quietly, probably you should do that. But, boy, I wouldn't be like, elon's now one of us.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't think it's possible because it goes back to my earlier point.

[Sam Stein]

Which is what is his popularity rating among Democrats?

[Tim Miller]

Gotta be zero.

[Sam Stein]

It's, like, close, right?

[Tim Miller]

Close to zero.

[Sam Stein]

How do you let someone like that? Actually, we like this guy. It's like, no, it doesn't really work.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't think so. And the other thing is, it goes back to my. You have to have a theory of the case of what happened to Elon. And if your theory is mine, which is his brain has been broken by the Internet, he's not capable. Like, he's deep in poster brain. Yeah, he's still, like, retweeting again, Ian. Like random white nationalists.

[Sam Stein]

He's too far lost. I feel like at this point, it.

[Tim Miller]

Would be pretty funny, though, if he does the opposite and starts, like, retweeting. Like, lib posters, like the Krassensteins all of a sudden treating the crass.

[Sam Stein]

He just adjusts his own algorithm and, like, oh, my God. He and Ro Khan are hanging out.

[Tim Miller]

Did we miss. I'm going through to see if there are any other side plots, and I pulled up Drudge. This is a great day for Drudge. I'm just gonna read a couple of the headlines if you wanna weigh in on any of them.

[Sam Stein]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

Musk says Republicans should side with him because Trump will die first. Trump we've got here. Russia offers Musk asylum.

[Sam Stein]

Did they really?

[Tim Miller]

Apparently.

[Sam Stein]

I didn't see that one.

[Tim Miller]

I haven't seen that one. Let's see. Trump's hints at most, drug use, ban and deport. Elon. We covered that. Oh, the Sergio Gore. There's a picture of Sergio Gore. If you don't know him, he's this super dork dweeb that used to work for Rand Paul, and his picture is on Drudge right now doing the raised fist. Cause apparently he started this. Apparently Sergio Gore started this. So the backstage, he was like, a guy that when I go to parties in D.C. like, 13 years ago, he would be, like, in the corner, like, being very weird, like, hoping girls could talk to him while he talked to his BlackBerry.

[Sam Stein]

Now he's like, an incredible power broker in Trump's White House. Yeah. So he. Basically, the backstory is that he killed the NASA administrator job, and that was an Elon guy, and he did it because he showed Donald Trump that the guy had donated to Democrats, and Trump didn't like that. And then Elon flipped out over that, and that's what precipitated all this. So Sergio Gore started all this? Apparently.

[Tim Miller]

That is wild. All right, two other trouble related stories before we get to the Commerce Secretary closing segment. Reagan National Airport will close.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, this is fucking. I'm mad about this one. Go ahead.

[Tim Miller]

It will close during the president's birthday bash slash the military parade. We're closing down Reagan National Airport.

[Sam Stein]

I'm supposed to fly out of Reagan that day.

[Tim Miller]

No.

[Sam Stein]

Yes. I'm supposed to go.

[Tim Miller]

I thought you were pissed about it on princess principle. You're pissed out of it. Personal inconvenience. You gotta go to Dulles now. That's your final straw with Trump.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. How dare you send me to Dulles. No. I'm supposed to go to Fenway with my little kid for a baseball game, and it's gonna get fucked by Trump. Motherfucker.

[Tim Miller]

It's just.

[Sam Stein]

It's ridiculous. Any other president who would do this shit, I mean, it would be like a scandal of epic proportions. Closing the airport, $40 million on a parade that's gonna tear up D.C. streets. It's nutty. It's totally insane.

[Tim Miller]

He's not a fucking king. That's why they're having no Kings rallies that day. People should go, June 14th to near you guys.

[Sam Stein]

That's how we're gonna cover it as a site.

[Tim Miller]

I'm gonna be in New Orleans with the protests.

[Sam Stein]

Okay. Maybe go live.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure. Nobody's invited me to speak yet, but we'll see. I might just take a ball hard. My other side thing, I mentioned this before we came, and you're less excited about this than me, so maybe I'll just do it. But Trump. Trump did a bleep this morning about how Jerome Powell should cut rates again, but a very direct call for him to cut rates that Europe's already cut. We should cut. We need to. It'll be a big boom, and this is going to a bad place. And I think that my reasoning here is that, yeah, Trump does this stuff a lot. There's a lot of bluster and all this, but he's in a pickle where with this bill and the trillions that are going, the debt, like, interest rates are gonna be high. His whole presidency. That's just true. And so I do think that eventually this is gonna come to a head and these guys could cut rates a little bit, and it probably wouldn't matter that much, actually. And that gets into kind of econ dork stuff. But I think.

[Sam Stein]

Well, yeah, and that's the reason to not cut rates is you want an error in the quiver. Right? Right when you're gonna need it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And so I just think that the whole. And when you listen to my buddy Joe Wiesenthal and the odd lots, all these econ dorks, the worst case scenario, essentially, is like, Trump getting rid of Powell just because of how that would roil the markets and what the downstream effects would be. And I just, like. That feels to me like a little more likely today than yesterday, I guess, is all I'm saying.

[Sam Stein]

Yes, maybe. I mean, he's always been deeply frustrated with Powell, and he makes it publicly known. There was this recent Supreme Court case that seemed to suggest that they would stand up the independence of the Fed. But you don't know until you don't know. Right. And, like, who knows what Trump's capable of if he gets mad, if the economy goes south. I think that's what, you know, this is. We don't appreciate this part enough. And this is what I think, you know, even with all the must drama, it's like, this is the shit that's happening when things are relatively stable, right? That's the scary part for me is like, things are not bad. I mean, if they are bad, it's because Trump made them bad himself. So it's not like. But when things do get bad, and they get bad in every presidency, there's.

[Tim Miller]

No really external force, like new Russia invasion, some stuff happening in the Middle East. All that stuff was already happening.

[Sam Stein]

And I'll create him. All the Liberation Day stuff was of his own making, and then he backed off of it. Right? But when things do get bad, and they will, because that's just how it works, then we don't really know what Trump is gonna do and what he's capable of. And so while it seems incredibly dramatic and off the rails right now, and it is, I'm like a little bit anxious, a little bit really anxious for what happens when it's when the external.

[Tim Miller]

Stuff, because things are more rickety. Like, obviously Covid and all that was really bad. But like when Covid hit and like that was, you know, the big crisis of his first term, things are pretty good. I like the Trump part, the drama, the craziness, his behavior.

[Sam Stein]

He did get impeached before COVID but that was.

[Tim Miller]

I just mean, like geopolitically and economically is really what I mean. There were not like huge disruptions overseas. There hadn't been a terrorist attack. Economically, we were pretty stable hit, right? Like, things are much more rickety now than then, I guess is my point. Just like the US economy is way more rickety than it was in 2019. The global environment, like, there are a lot more hotspots, a lot more bullshit happening than there was back then. So anyway, I'm with you.

[Erin Andrews]

This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. Hi, I'm Will and I created IQ Bar to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low sugar, brain and body fuel. Millions of people rely on our protein bars and hydration mixes to win their day. Turns out Thomas Keller, Michelin star Che of the French Laundry is one of them. We've teamed up with Chef Keller to craft a bar and hydration mix that marry world class flavor with exceptional nutrition. Our special edition salted caramel chip bar delivers all the decadence of a fine dining dessert, plus protein, minus sugar and carbs. And our zero sugar yuzu, mango Hydration mix packs, an authentic citrusy punch and a mental boost from lion's mane and magnesium. The best part, 10% of sales go directly to Chef Keller's nonprofit that supports aspiring young chefs. Great taste, great nutrition, great mission. Total no brainer. Go to iqbar.com today and enter promo code KELLER20 to get 20% off all IQ Bar products, plus free shipping. That's iqbar.com promo code KELLER20.

[Tim Miller]

All right, I'm looking directly into the camera for the YouTube viewers, the final segment. The Commerce Secretary was over on the Hill this week, and I want to play a couple clips from it. You know that he's my favorite member of the Cabinet. Is he? Well, in some ways. We'll talk about that. And before I name him, I want to go to Senator Jerry Moran from. You forget Senator Jerry Marin exists, by the way.

[Sam Stein]

No, there's way more forgettable.

[Tim Miller]

There are these whole category of Republican senators from the before times who just don't want you to remember that they exist. Name both senators from Idaho, Reich and Crapo.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, damn, dude, you're good.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, of course. I'm a fucking professional political podcast host. Okay. All right, all right. The senator from Kansas addressing the Commerce Secretary, Barry, please play that. Secretary Lutnick, thank you for your testimony today. I look forward to working closely with you and throughout the appropriations process. Barry, play that one more time. Secretary Nutnick, thank you for your testimony today. I look forward to working closely with you and throughout the appropriations process. He does it twice. Nutlik. Senator Nutlik, I gotta tell you, Commerce Secretary Nutlik, I got to tell you, Sam, it has been extremely challenging for me to not say Nutlik on msnbc. And I have to, like, sit there when I'm on deadline, White House. And no, I haven't yet, but, like, when? I think it was earlier this week that Nicole started playing some clips. And I'm sitting in the chair and I'm just. In my head, I'm going, lutnick, Lutnik. Don't do Nutlik. Lutnik. Lutnik. Lutnik. I have to talk to myself in my brain to make sure I don't call him Howard Nutlik on msnbc. I think Jerry Moran's giving me some cover, though, now, is what I'm saying. So it might be happening. I think it might be happening. All right, I want to play a couple of the other clips of Nut Lick on the Hill. It was an exchange between him and my senator from Louisiana, John Kennedy, and another exchange with Madeline Dean, Congresswoman from Pennsylvania. If Vietnam, for example, came to you tomorrow and said, okay, Mr. Secretary, you win. We're going to remove all tariffs and all trade barriers. Would the United States please do the same? Would you accept that deal? Absolutely not.

[Sam Stein]

Absolutely not. That would be the silliest thing we could do.

[Tim Miller]

What's the tariff on bananas? Americans, by the way, love bananas. We buy billions of them a year. I love bananas. What's the tariff on bananas?

[Sam Stein]

The tariff on bananas would be representative of the countries that produce them.

[Tim Miller]

And what. What's that tariff generally? 10%. Correct, 10%. Walmart has already increased the cost of bananas by 8%.

[Sam Stein]

There's no uncertainty. If you build in America and you.

[Tim Miller]

Produce your product in America, it will be no tariff. We can't build that as an American.

[Sam Stein]

Building in America and pay no tariff. Very, very clear.

[Tim Miller]

We cannot build bananas in America. This man, Ran Cantor Fitzgerald, Howard Nutlik. What is happening? He wants us to build banana groves. Where?

[Sam Stein]

I don't think he knows what he's talking about, but I think his belief is that if he can do it with enough infectious enthusiasm, they just bullshit his way through it. It's really amazing. The banana thing is too funny. And yes, I know you love bananas.

[Tim Miller]

But banana daiquiris really are my favorite.

[Sam Stein]

My dad is. I don't think anyone loves bananas more than my dad, really. I'll tell you something. My dad has had a banana every morning with his cereal for. Every day for some of that. No, we calculated once.

[Tim Miller]

Does he cut it up and put it in the cereal?

[Sam Stein]

Cut it up, slice it in the cereal. And this is no joke. We calculated this once we discovered that if you do the math, he's had something like 17,000 bananas over the course of his life.

[Tim Miller]

What is your dad's first name?

[Sam Stein]

Steven.

[Tim Miller]

Steven Stein.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Just every morning, gets out his little knife, just cuts through. Does he like them green or brown?

[Sam Stein]

Oh, that's a good question. Whenever he comes to see me in D.C. he's always calling me up. He's like, get me the bananas. Buy me them where they're still green, but they're starting to turn yellow.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Sam Stein]

He likes him a very specific.

[Tim Miller]

Me and Steve same. That's how I like my bananas as well.

[Sam Stein]

I like mine overripe a little bit.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, no, I like closer to green.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, not too much.

[Tim Miller]

I want totally ripe for the daiquiri because you want it nice and sweet for the daiquiri.

[Sam Stein]

You want sugary ripeness here.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but if I'm gonna eat a banana whole, I want it greenish.

[Sam Stein]

17,000 bananas is a lot of banana. I think that's just too much.

[Tim Miller]

Think about how much you would have lost in your inheritance if he was paying 8% more on a banana every day for 17.

[Sam Stein]

Why we gotta grow bananas in America?

[Tim Miller]

The one other thing I wanna talk about, about that Nutlik exchange was John Kennedy, who's a fucking moron.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, but he got him there.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, he got. He got it. Okay, so this is my point. There are two kinds of stupid in this world. There's Howard Lutnick stupid. He's like, oh, I don't even know, what am I gonna do? No twist. Zero. But then there's Kennedy, who thinks he's smart and thinks he's making this point that it's like, hey, why don't you guys try to get it down to zero? I'm a free trader. We're the free trade party, remember? He's trying to nudge. Not much.

[Sam Stein]

I read it a little differently, but go ahead.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, but I think that he's trying by his own words. Later, he says, I'm trying to nudge them towards my policy goals. And it's like, bro, you signed up for this. They want the tariffs. Making a pure free trade argument against. Against Nutlik is not gonna convince anybody. Trump is not gonna be convinced by that. And he has still bought these guys the free market. The Wall Street Journal Republican types have convinced themselves that Trump is one of them and that there's a deal coming on the back end that's gonna be good for the economy. It's like, no, this is the guy that bankrupted the casinos. He loves the word tariff.

[Sam Stein]

Right?

[Tim Miller]

That's what's happening. And Kennedy has fooled himself, I think, into thinking that this is gonna work.

[Sam Stein]

Well, maybe. I think he was just trying to expose the ridiculousness of their arguments. Right? And he's like, if you guys really believe in reciprocity, then surely you would believe in reciprocity. And Lilac's like, no, never. No way. So, yeah, I mean, they're both a little bit delusional in their own separate ways. And I guess to your point, you know, now that Musk is gone, I mean, he. He doesn't like the terrorists too. You now basically have, you know, Peter Navarro Lutnick, who is just gonna do whatever the hell Trump tells him to do. And Trump and Vance basically making policy and it's just like, this is. The guardrails for the free trade crowd are not there anymore.

[Tim Miller]

Elon was a guardrail.

[Sam Stein]

Well, to a degree, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

All right, that's a good Podcast. Did you have any smokes yesterday that you felt you got riding so high.

[Sam Stein]

That you felt like, kind of needed one at the end of it?

[Tim Miller]

All right, any final thoughts for the people taking them into the weekend?

[Sam Stein]

I don't know. Good luck. It's rough out there. I'm excited to see what drama comes today. But then I step back and I'm like, we're living through something really dark.

[Tim Miller]

Let's close with that because there's this little person inside me. My little Jiminy Cricket.

[Sam Stein]

He still exists.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, dude. He's getting. He's louder and louder every year. As I get older, I'm getting soft. And yesterday Jiminy was cricketed in my ear, you know, and he's like, you shouldn't enjoy this as much. Like, things are still really bad. Trump's still gonna be president for three and a half years, blah, blah, blah. And I just kept like, muzzling Jiminy, shut up. Shut the fuck up.

[Sam Stein]

Let me have a little joy.

[Tim Miller]

Let us have a little joy. And so I would like to tell the listeners to do that. Enjoy it.

[Sam Stein]

I know, and we do that a lot. You and I especially. We laugh at it. And. And it's good to laugh. I think it's important to laugh. And it's important to say, what the fuck? This is ridiculous. And that's fine. I'm not saying you shouldn't feel it. You should feel bad doing that. And then I sit back and I'm like, these guys are running shit.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. It's also important to protest. And that's why we'll be doing that today.

[Sam Stein]

Hey, good luck tonight.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you.

[Sam Stein]

I'm excited for that.

[Tim Miller]

It's gonna be rowdy.

[Sam Stein]

I'm nervous.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you should be. Me and John Lovett with Longwell. I think that we'll be posting that either on the Love it or Leave it feed or right here. People can check it out, maybe bits on both. It might be NC17, I guess, is all I'm gonna say.

[Sam Stein]

I can't wait.

[Tim Miller]

There'll be some very serious parts and then there'll be some parts that are a little yucky for people. So enjoy everybody else. We'll see you back here Monday. We're working on the sked. We might have a little change of sked. It might not be Bill Crystal Monday. It might be. So, you know, I wanna leave you on your toes this weekend. Enjoy the feud. We'll see you back here Monday. Peace.

[John Kennedy]

Mustard on the beat Hope deep boat, any rat nigga, he a free throat man. Damn. Call her Amber. Lambs tell him breathe bro knell a nigga to the cross he walk around like T Zo what's up with these jabroni ass trying to see Compton they in the street can hate me fuck em all in they mama how many ops you really got I mean it's too many options I'm finna pass on this body I'm John Stockton beat your ass and hide the bible if God watching sometimes you gotta pop out and show niggas certified boogeyman I'm the one that up to school with him walk him down whole time I know he got some hoe in him pole on him extort shit bully the floor on him say Drake I hear you like him young you better not ever go to cell block one to any bitch that talk to him and they in love just make sure you hide your little sister from him they tell me Chub's the only one that get your hand me downs and party at the party playing with his nose now and baka got a weird case why is he around Certified lovable certified pedophiles that fuck em up Imma do my stuff why you trolling like a ain't you tired Trying to strike a chord and it's probably a minor they not like us they not like us they not like us they not like us the.

[Tim Miller]

Board podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

[Erin Andrews]

This podcast is sponsored by IQ Bar. Hi, I'm Will and I created IQ Bar to empower doers like you with clean, delicious, low sugar brain and body fuel. Millions of people rely on our protein bars and hydration mixes to win their day. Turns out Thomas Keller, Michelin star chef of the French Laundry is one of them. We've teamed up with Chef Keller to craft a bar and hydration mix that marry world class flavor with exceptional nutrition. Our special edition salted caramel chip bar delivers all the decadence of a fine dining dessert plus protein minus sugar and carbs. And our zero sugar Yuzu mango hydration mix packs an authentic citrusy punch and a mental boost from lion's mane and magnesium. The best part? 10% of sales go directly to Chef Keller's non profit that supports aspiring young chefs. Great taste, great nutrition, great mission. Total no brainer. Go to iqbar.com today and enter promo code KELLER20 to get 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping. That's iqbar.com promo code KELLER20.