The Bulwark Podcast – Season 2, Episode 1060: Ta-Nehisi Coates – A Natural Human Reaction

Release Date: June 9, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in an in-depth conversation with renowned author and journalist Ta-Nehisi Coates. The discussion navigates through pressing political issues, historical parallels, the evolution of political thought, and the challenges of contemporary activism.

1. National Guard Deployment and Anti-ICE Protests

[00:40]
Coates opens the dialogue by addressing the recent deployment of the National Guard to Los Angeles in response to anti-ICE protests. He emphasizes the human reactions underlying such confrontations:

“These are human beings. And so these questions that necessarily arise, and I understand them, of strategy and tactics, etc., it's very hard to ask people to not be human beings, to not have human reactions.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [02:15]

2. Trump’s Political Strategy and Incitement

Miller probes into Trump's apparent strategy to provoke public confrontation, drawing parallels to past events like the George Floyd protests.

[03:28]
Coates suggests that Trump's actions are less about strategic planning and more about eliciting natural, albeit disruptive, human responses:

“I don't know that it's strategic, though... it's very hard to ask people to not be human beings, to not have human reactions.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [03:28]

3. Civil Rights Movement: Nonviolence vs. Natural Reactions

The conversation delves into the Civil Rights Movement's disciplined nonviolence approach compared to today's seemingly less organized resistance.

[04:30]
Coates reflects on the challenges of maintaining strategic nonviolence:

“They were training themselves to not defend themselves. This is not, again, a very, very natural human reaction.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [05:10]

He contrasts this with current resistance, highlighting a perceived lack of strong, effective opposition.

4. Institutional Trust and the Erosion of Norms

A critical discussion ensues about the declining trust in established institutions and the resultant vulnerability to authoritarian tactics.

[07:34]
Coates remarks on the National Guard's deployment against citizens, portraying the nation as being "at war":

“They want to portray an image of this country kind of being at war and Trump as the defender of order while he loots the country.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [08:13]

5. Historical Parallels and Future Implications

Drawing from historical contexts, Coates warns of the long-term damage to democratic norms and expectations.

[09:40]
He asserts the lasting impact of undermining institutional legitimacy:

“I actually think that damage started when people began to believe that this wasn't a country run by fallible human beings... it has made it easier to believe that taking it apart can somehow be a good thing.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [10:30]

6. Evolution of Political Thought and Power Dynamics

The dialogue shifts to the evolution of Coates' political perspective, especially regarding power structures and their implications.

[32:40]
Discussing Edmund Fawcett's view on power, Coates elaborates on the inherent dangers it poses:

“Unless resisted and checked. To take this view means power will be ill used by your friends as well as your enemies.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [33:00]

7. Race, Identity, and Political Narratives

Coates delves into the complexities of race as both an identity and a construct, emphasizing the need for nuanced discussions beyond simplistic narratives.

[42:05]
He distinguishes between race as a consequence of racism rather than its cause:

“Race is the child of racism, not the father. In other words, it's the racism that's real.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [42:36]

8. The Role of Social Media in Shaping Discourse

Addressing the challenges of conveying complex ideas on social media, Coates critiques the platform's limitations in fostering nuanced political conversations.

[46:23]
He reflects on the pitfalls of oversimplification:

“If you write something complicated and nuanced, it doesn't fit into a tweet. So what happens is then there are either people who don't get the nuance, or people who completely butcher your message.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [46:23]

9. Representation, Backlash, and Cultural Progress

The conversation examines the strides made in representation and the simultaneous backlash faced by progressive movements.

[49:45]
Coates acknowledges both the positive advancements and the resultant resistance:

“All movements had their excesses... sometimes those excessive people have power and do things that are not smart and are not in service of the ideals they claim to be serving.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [50:44]

10. The Black Superman and Cultural Symbolism

Miller introduces a lighter yet culturally significant topic regarding the development of a black Superman character, highlighting its symbolic importance.

[58:30]
Coates responds by stating the project is still in development:

“He should care. You should. I guess the answer I can give is that it's still in development.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [58:54]

11. Personal Reflections and Advice

In the latter part of the episode, Coates offers personal insights and advice, reflecting on his journey and the importance of understanding diverse perspectives.

[60:05]
He advises embracing multicultural experiences:

“You have the ability and the power at any point to live for some period of time outside the country, and with that, to raise a kid who is not monolingual.”
— Ta-Nehisi Coates [64:03]

12. Bonus Segment: Immigrant Defenders Fundraiser

The episode concludes with a heartfelt segment featuring Lindsey Toslowski, president and CEO of the Immigrant Defenders Law Center. She shares poignant stories of immigrants like Andri, a gay asylum seeker from Venezuela unlawfully taken to El Salvador.

[66:31]
Toslowski illustrates the harrowing experiences faced by immigrants:

“What we need people to do is keep his story alive. Don't let them erase him.”
— Lindsey Toslowski [74:22]

She emphasizes the critical need for public support and advocacy to prevent such human rights abuses.

Notable Quotes:

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [02:15]: “These are human beings. And so these questions that necessarily arise, and I understand them, of strategy and tactics, etc., it's very hard to ask people to not be human beings, to not have human reactions.”

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [10:30]: “I actually think that damage started when people began to believe that this wasn't a country run by fallible human beings... it has made it easier to believe that taking it apart can somehow be a good thing.”

• Ta-Nehisi Coates [42:36]: “Race is the child of racism, not the father. In other words, it's the racism that's real.”

• Lindsey Toslowski [74:22]: “What we need people to do is keep his story alive. Don't let them erase him.”

This episode offers a profound exploration of contemporary political dynamics, the enduring struggle for racial justice, and the personal responsibilities of individuals in fostering a more equitable society. Coates' insightful reflections, combined with the urgent narratives shared by immigrant advocates, compel listeners to engage thoughtfully with the pressing issues of our time.