Sam Stein: A Bunch of Violent Keystone Cops

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Sam Stein: A Bunch of Violent Keystone Cops

Release Date: October 9, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Sam Stein (Managing Editor, The Bulwark)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the chaotic state of American politics, with a primary focus on the administration's aggressive tactics in Chicago and other cities, government propaganda efforts, escalating political polarization, and ongoing international crises. Tim Miller and Sam Stein dissect these topics with their characteristic blend of sharp analysis and dark humor. They also touch on recent media antics (including Candace Owens’s bizarre seance, the civil war rhetoric of Tucker Carlson, and Candace’s online clash with Dinesh D’Souza), the current status of the Israel-Gaza ceasefire, and close with reflections on Democratic politics, notably Katie Porter's meltdown and the need for strong leadership.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Escalation in Chicago and Federal Overreach

[01:37–07:04]

• Dramatic tactics by federal authorities: Recent ICE and DHS operations include Black Hawk helicopters, masked men banging on citizens’ doors, pepper-balling a priest, and publicizing the raids through social media.
• Administration’s motives: Sam Stein argues that, “It is invested in creating chaos because that chaos allows it to justify further amplifying their operations or ICE operations particularly.” [02:28, Sam Stein]
• Political benefit in chaos: The hosts warn that the current administration is incentivized to escalate tension, not resolve it.
• Redirection of resources: “The amount of resources that are being redirected right now…from within DHS, from within FBI, within DOJ…everything is being refocused towards their plans in Chicago, Portland…towards all immigration stuff.” [05:31, Tim Miller]
• Implications: Law enforcement agents are being pulled off cyber, corruption, and national security cases to prioritize immigration crackdowns.

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2. ICE/Administration Propaganda Machine & Social Media Warfare

[07:04–12:00]

• Sophisticated PR efforts: The administration crafts slick videos, often set to pop culture tracks (e.g., using Zach Bryan’s “Revival” for propaganda), and collaborates with right-wing influencers by giving them access to raids for content creation.

  “They’ve collaborated with conservative influencers…putting on the roof of the Portland ICE facility so that they can…run Videos of those scrums and then take those videos…out to more mainstream conservative publications, mostly Fox News…” [09:09, Sam Stein]

• Glorification and desensitization: The government’s material oftentimes presents disturbing imagery with intentionally incongruous, upbeat music and a narrative that these operations are noble and highbrow.
• Noteworthy instance: Benny Johnson, a conservative influencer, participated in a raid and then created AI videos depicting violence against immigrants:

  “He did an AI video where he's like beating up immigrants. And they're like a lot of these shirtless, oiled up, tattooed men that he gets to beat up, which is again, totally straight, like totally heterosexual.” [11:19, Tim Miller]

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3. Political Theater & Reality Disconnect in Portland, Chicago, Etc.

[12:00–16:35]

• Trump’s hyperbole: The former president claimed Portland “doesn’t even have stores anymore,” and that new businesses don’t bother putting up windows—laughably out of touch with reality.

  “They don't even have stores anymore in Portland. What does he think? I mean, I don't know.” [14:13, Sam Stein]

• Field reports: Personal accounts and videos from Portland residents and people on the ground sharply contradict administration talking points, reinforcing the narrative that manufactured crisis serves the administration’s goals.
• Keystone Cops analogy: The incompetence and overblown nature of the operations is likened to “Keystone Cops”:

  “…they are, to a degree, Keystone Cops.” [16:30, Sam Stein]

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4. Comey Prosecution & Trump’s Social Media Mishap

[18:10–25:52]

• Vindictive prosecution: Jim Comey pleads not guilty to charges widely seen as politically motivated.
• Trump’s Truth Social DM blunder: Trump accidentally posts, instead of privately DM’ing, an incriminating message to Attorney General Pam Bondi:

  “‘Pam, you must prosecute Comey...’”
  “I was wrong. Pundit accountability. It was an errant DM. On September 20, Trump meant to send a private message...” [19:00, Tim Miller]

• Discussion of absurdity: The hosts marvel at Trump’s incompetence and the fact that such brazen coordination of political retribution is being attempted via social media, rather than conventional backchannels.

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5. Israel-Gaza Ceasefire & International Politics

[27:56–36:43]

• Ceasefire optimism and skepticism: Both Stein and Miller cautiously praise the ceasefire, focusing on the humanitarian aspect (hostage release), but question its durability given the self-interest and duplicity of all sides.

  “It is a human rights catastrophe that has been unfolding for two years now. And anything that can bring it to an end, you should applaud.” [27:58, Sam Stein]

• Political calculus: Trump’s desire for a Nobel Peace Prize is highlighted as a motivator for seeking deals:

  “We're really lucky that Donald Trump wants a peace prize and not world domination.” [35:10, Tim Miller]

• Continued trauma: The hosts note forthcoming public reckoning with the consequences (returning hostages, likely revelations of abuses, devastation in Gaza).

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6. US Military Action in Venezuela/Caribbean & Congressional Abdication

[37:16–42:29]

• Questionable military actions: The administration is conducting military strikes in the Caribbean (purportedly targeting drug shipments) with scant oversight and unclear objectives.
• Thin justification: No evidence of Venezuelan fentanyl trade; the strikes may be thin cover for possible regime change efforts.

  “The thing to me that is the most alarming about all this is like, this is an illegal war about nothing. Like, the war is about nothing. We are bombing boats out of the Caribbean with no real objective.” [38:12, Tim Miller]

• Congressional neglect: Only a handful of legislators challenge the Pentagon’s unilateral actions, with Sam Stein lamenting, "your job as a member of the Congress is oversight...and to just basically abdicate that...have some dignity." [40:50, Sam Stein]

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7. Candace Owens’ Seance, Right-Wing Media, & Tucker Carlson’s Civil War Talk

[42:39–53:24]

• Candace Owens’s surreal moment: Owens claims to have communed with Charlie Kirk’s spirit, predicting “international consequences,” provoking both ridicule and concern about the state of right-wing media.

  “Had a vivid dream this weekend, and Charlie came to me and he told me that he was betrayed...it is soon going to be revealed that...there is nothing and no one that is going to stop the truth from coming out. And it is going to have international consequences. Take that to the bank.” [43:01, Candace Owens]

• Dinesh D’Souza’s bizarre analogy: D’Souza gets owned by Owens in an exchange involving a comparison of watching a “freak show” to seeing a farmer have sex with a sheep:

  “It’s like driving on the highway and seeing a farmer having sex with a sheep. Okay, you lose me a little bit.” [54:45, Tim Miller]

• Tucker Carlson's dangerous narrative:

  "Why is America moving towards civil war? ...Diversity...is without question our weakness and has always been." [46:33, Tucker Carlson]

• Critical response: Miller and Stein emphasize the corrosive impact of mainstreaming civil war rhetoric and the basic falsity (“fundamentally wrong”) and cynicism of anti-diversity arguments.

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8. Democratic Politics & Katie Porter’s Meltdown

[57:05–63:21]

• Katie Porter debacle: Audio is played of gubernatorial candidate Katie Porter prematurely ending a Sacramento TV interview when pressed on outreach to Trump voters:

  “Not with seven follow ups to every single question you ask… I want to have a pleasant, positive conversation…” [58:32, Katie Porter]

• Analysis: Hosts criticize Porter’s inability to handle basic media scrutiny, emphasizing the political gift her self-sabotage represents for Democrats looking for a stronger candidate.
• Dan Pfeiffer for governor?: Miller pushes the idea that other, better-suited leaders (like Dan Pfeiffer) should step up in Porter’s wake.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On chaos as a strategy:
  “The administration doesn’t want to calm the tensions. It wants to make things more tense…it is invested in creating chaos.” — Sam Stein [02:28]
• On ICE propaganda:
  “Never seen a government put this much attention into the PR elements of what they are doing.” — Sam Stein [09:09]
• On the administration’s priorities:
  “They just want to put everybody on immigration cases and that’s their priority.” — Sam Stein [06:17]
• On Trump’s DM blunder:
  “I was giving Trump the benefit of the doubt here, actually. Stupider than I realized.” — Tim Miller [20:44]
• On the ceasefire deal:
  “It’s not that complicated actually… It’s where everyone suspected we would end up… In a way, it makes me really sad again to think what was lost.” — Sam Stein [33:22]
• On America’s civil war talk:
  “If you feel like you need to say ‘actually’, you don’t really believe it.” — Tim Miller [47:51]
• On the proliferation of right-wing influencers:
  “Candace Owens is just too powerful now…These people have incredible online followings…The real power brokers in conservative media are just even further out.” — Sam Stein [45:05]
• On Katie Porter:
  “A leader does not deal with follow up questions from down-market local news anchors from Sacramento. I am a leader.” — Tim Miller [59:14]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Chicago and aggressive ICE tactics: 01:37–07:04
• ICE propaganda machine: 07:04–12:00
• Political theater in cities/Keystone Cops: 12:00–16:35
• Comey prosecution/Trump DM blunder: 18:10–25:52
• Israel-Gaza ceasefire: 27:56–36:43
• US military action in Venezuela/Caribbean: 37:16–42:29
• Candace Owens, Dinesh, right-wing media: 42:39–53:24
• Tucker Carlson’s civil war rhetoric: 46:33–53:24
• Katie Porter interview meltdown: 57:05–63:21

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Tone and Takeaway

The episode is bracing, darkly comic, and relentless in critiquing both the substance and the politics of contemporary America. Miller and Stein juxtapose absurdities (Candace’s spiritual visions, Trump’s direct-message follies) with profound anxieties about authoritarian drift, information warfare, the dangers of hate-driven narratives, and a political environment where bombast and “owning the libs” take precedence over real problem-solving or leadership.

For listeners seeking a clear-eyed, irreverent take on American politics in 2025—with both gallows humor and genuine alarm—this episode is essential.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to be here with my friend, the managing editor of this year, Bulwark, a man who is just this very week derided as repugnant by the.

[Charlie Sykes]

What do we call Stephen Miller? What's his job these days?

[Sam Stein]

The most powerful aid in America.

[Tim Miller]

Powerful. The most powerful aide in the White House. Maybe somebody who is reflecting how he feels about himself on the inside and lashing it out and projecting it onto.

[Charlie Sykes]

Others on the outside.

[Tim Miller]

And given that moment for you, I felt like we should podcast together this week.

[Sam Stein]

I appreciate that. I didn't realize that it could have been projection, but that makes a lot of sense. You should go into psychiatry.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Well, he also called somebody vile. Who was it they called vile? Somebody else Vile.

[Sam Stein]

Vile. Disgusting, I think.

[Tim Miller]

Dan Goldman.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Vile. Repugnant, disgusting. We're going to get into my thoughts.

[Charlie Sykes]

About Stephen Miller towards the end and some of the things AOC said about it. But first, we have a ton of news.

[Tim Miller]

I want to start with what's happening in Chicago.

[Charlie Sykes]

I did a little monologue on this yesterday. We're going to go much deeper, I think, with on the Ground folks tomorrow, so.

[Tim Miller]

So I kind of focus on the political, but like the video, so.

[Charlie Sykes]

And the examples of overreach that we're seeing in Chicago are pretty shocking. I know is fucking understatement. Like a Black Hawk helicopter, people rappelling from it, jumping into a building, knocking down, banging down doors, American citizens doors, in addition to migrants doors, masked thugs menacing people. I posted a video yesterday, turns out to be an old video that's been resurfaced of a priest who is praying outside the ICE facility, who gets gatted with a pepper. Pepper ball.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, pepper ball.

[Tim Miller]

And you know, I think that there.

[Charlie Sykes]

Is a lot of consternation about kind of where this is headed. And I wonder what your biggest picture thoughts are.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, definitely a lot of consternation. I feel concerned personally. You're constant heavy consternation. Is there like A pill for that. I think the problem that the issue that I have is that the administration doesn't want to calm the tensions. It doesn't want to make things smoother. It doesn't want to ease the frictions between itself and Chicago. It's not reaching out to J.B. pritzker saying, hey, we were going to send these troops, but how can we do it in a way that's palatable for you? It wants to make things more tense. It wants to amplify these horrific situations and scenes, and then it wants to publicize them. It is invested in creating chaos because that chaos allows it to justify further amplifying their operations or ICE operations particularly. So that's what makes me really anxious here is that, you know, in different times, perhaps cooler heads might actually prevail. At least they'd have some conversations. In the current time, there is an incentive for this administration to just keep amplifying it. And, you know, the scenes in Chicago are just the beginning, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. To this point, they don't. They don't want a calm end game like you're saying. They are inciting the violence is being.

[Charlie Sykes]

Incited by them because they want it. And I think Pritzker has been very strong on this.

[Tim Miller]

It's a minor nitpick, but I just.

[Charlie Sykes]

Think it's an important messaging point. He was mocking the president, which I encourage and support. I think it was yesterday or two days ago, and saying like, that these plans are so crazy, like that he must have dementia.

[Tim Miller]

And I think that while Donald Trump certainly has psychological issues, the point here.

[Charlie Sykes]

Is that, like, it isn't that.

[Tim Miller]

It isn't that this is an intentional plan. They had a plan. This is what Trump wanted to do.

[Charlie Sykes]

In 2020, really, during the Black Lives Matter protest. But there were cooler heads prevailing within his own administration. Right. And now everybody is agitating for this and they want to fight. Like, they want there to be excuse for them to expand the operations 100%.

[Sam Stein]

And to what end is I guess, the big unknown. Right. So they're going to send Texas National Guard into Illinois. All they going to invoke the Insurrection act if they can't do it, how much military are going to be in the streets of certain states and cities and how long will they be there? And what does it mean if there are actually more confrontations? Right. I mean, you and I were talking a little bit earlier about whether this is sort of the beginning of the beginning, like or the manifestation of our worst fears or something in between. And the thing is, we just don't know. Right. I think we could try to imagine where it goes from here, but it could go in some fairly dark directions.

[Tim Miller]

There's something we do know that you.

[Charlie Sykes]

Mentioned, the Insurrection Act. I was talking at the live show that we had in D.C. last night where it was great to see everybody. We had a great time.

[Sam Stein]

Sorry I couldn't make it.

[Tim Miller]

We wanted you there. Did you not? A lot of people asked about you. Now that you mention it, I was talking to somebody who has a lot.

[Charlie Sykes]

Of sources and friends in, you know, in kind of these offices and law enforcement, federal law enforcement.

[Tim Miller]

And what they said kind of confirms reporting and what I've heard from other places, which is like the amount of resources that are being redirected right now from within dhs, from within FBI, within doj. Like everything is being refocused towards their.

[Charlie Sykes]

Plans in Chicago, their plans in Portland, Memphis, maybe my city, New Orleans. They're being redirected towards all immigration stuff. And without giving details because I haven't.

[Tim Miller]

Confirmed, this is alarming. People who have very serious jobs in.

[Charlie Sykes]

Security and keeping us safe and going after bad guys that are doing very bad things are now instead being redirected towards supporting the ICE mission in Chicago.

[Sam Stein]

Oh yeah, I have people who I know at DOJ who early on they were like, they'd have colleagues who were experts in national security law, cyber, or just trying regular old cases of corruption and they're being reassigned to immigration operations. And at first everyone's like, well maybe that's like punishment because they don't like these people and they're just like putting them down on the, you know, ladder. But like in reality it turns out that that was just prioritization. They just want to put everybody on immigration cases and that's their priority. So it's not just, you know, it's across the spectrum of agencies and you see it all over the place and you know, we'll see how that works out. Because I gotta be honest, I don't think immigration's the only problem the government has to deal with.

[Tim Miller]

Our colleague Adrian Kerskill wrote about the.

[Charlie Sykes]

Propaganda that these guys are putting out.

[Tim Miller]

On this, which is pretty dark.

[Charlie Sykes]

And I want you to talk about his reporting. I talked about this a little bit yesterday, but the thing that has really.

[Tim Miller]

Shook me for some reason I can't. Like I found myself rewatching the video like several times.

[Charlie Sykes]

I don't know why it's like a self punishment or to like that I can't believe it's real or something. But it's hitting me at a emotional.

[Tim Miller]

Level is like the video that they.

[Charlie Sykes]

Put out with the. With the Zach Bryan song revival to troll. Zach Bryan is the country music singer who likes. Who does the anti ICE song.

[Tim Miller]

And like this video is like they are gleeful about it. Like it is like these video of.

[Charlie Sykes]

People being chained and they're trying to use this song that's supposed to be about redemption and gathering with your friends and community and you and co opting it in service of this propaganda campaign that celebrates the just grotesque punishment of people. You know, we don't know who's in these images, but you would assume based on their track record, at least some of whom their only crime was, was trying to come to, you know, the land of milk and honey and live and live out their lives. But what else did it talk about? Adrian's.

[Sam Stein]

I thought Israel was the land of milk and honey.

[Tim Miller]

Israel, the land of milk and honey. I thought it was America, you know, shining city on the hill, you know.

[Sam Stein]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

The place where you can.

[Sam Stein]

What are you drinking? Can we get a look at that bottle you're drinking? Is that a beer?

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

This is H2O with some peptides. I heard about the Peptides in yesterday's podcast. I've been trying.

[Sam Stein]

They're doing great work.

[Charlie Sykes]

Look at you.

[Sam Stein]

You look great. Adrian's piece was like both great and chilling. The Zach Brian thing, he was like, you know, that was like the perfect encapsulation of this administration because it was at once like, petty to like a degree that I couldn't even imagine. But also to your point, it was, you know, they're celebrating like a very dark thing and they're just propagandizing it. Adrian's point, though, is that the propaganda PR elements of the ICE operation are really sort of an underappreciated and telling component of what they're doing. They know that they're in an information warfare ecosystem and that they have to compete with everyday citizens who are taking footage of ICE raids on their video. You see it all the time, right? You know, you see pictures of like agents pointing guns at people. They're. They're all over the place. And so what DHS and ICE have done is they've put together, you know, really a sophisticated operation to just pump highly edited videos out into the ecosystem. And they've collaborated with conservative influencers, bringing them on aids, helping them get access to ICE facilities, putting on the roof of the Portland ICE facility so that they can both participate with the operations, get into scrums with protesters, run Videos of those scrums and then take those videos and then go out to more mainstream conservative publications, mostly Fox News, and talk about it and creates this echo chamber in which ICE is glorified. Their mission is always taking down hardened criminals and they're trying to persuade the public that this is totally rational and justified. I've never seen a government put this much attention into the PR elements of what they are doing.

[Tim Miller]

I could think of one. Well, our government was a few decades ago now, you know, you don't want.

[Charlie Sykes]

To bring it up, but I could think of one government that put. Put a lot of thought into their propaganda efforts.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, the snuff films that they're putting.

[Charlie Sykes]

Out are really, really sick. And.

[Tim Miller]

And it's something.

[Sam Stein]

There's one where they have like this classical music background to it. And it's like. It's like it just. It really sent like, chills my spine. Because they're trying to make it seem like the ICE operations are the sophisticated, you know, highbrow operations. And it's just, you know, it doesn't feel right.

[Tim Miller]

It is chilling. Speaking of the influencers, couple of thoughts on that.

[Charlie Sykes]

One that comes to mind is one.

[Tim Miller]

Of the influencers they brought out with.

[Charlie Sykes]

Them was a guy named Benny Johnson, who you might remember.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

As big conservative influencer. Did smoke at tpusa other places.

[Tim Miller]

Definitely not gay.

[Charlie Sykes]

Just want to make sure that's really very. He's very straight and masculine and he.

[Tim Miller]

Did an AI video like he went on the raid and then he did.

[Charlie Sykes]

A subsequent AI video where. Where he's like beating up immigrants. And they're like a lot of these shirtless, oiled up, tattooed men that he gets to beat up, which is again, totally straight, like totally heterosexual.

[Tim Miller]

It's not anything to do with any other issues that he might be dealing with.

[Charlie Sykes]

And I don't know, I mean, that's.

[Tim Miller]

That's pretty. It's pretty dark that.

[Charlie Sykes]

That's where we're at. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that. I just wanted to.

[Tim Miller]

I just wanted to mention it because I was so impressed with his mask.

[Charlie Sykes]

His musk.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. You mentioned the issue of projection earlier on. I suppose leave it at that.

[Tim Miller]

Anyway, the other influencer thing I wanted to bring up, there was an antifa meeting at the White House yesterday.

[Sam Stein]

Not actually.

[Tim Miller]

Did you watch it?

[Sam Stein]

I just want to be clear. Antifa was not invited into the White House.

[Tim Miller]

It was a meeting. It was a meeting with influencers which they called independent journalists who are mostly.

[Charlie Sykes]

Anti, you know, whatever Maga Influencers that go and try to stir up shit with left wing protesters and groups. And, and they were invited to the White House yesterday. And I couldn't, I couldn't stomach it and it was just too, it was too stupid for me and I had to get my mind right for the show. And I was just like, I'm not.

[Tim Miller]

So did you, did you, you know, engage any of that?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, because I'm a say this.

[Tim Miller]

The point of the meeting, I guess.

[Charlie Sykes]

Was that they announced that attorney general announced that they were going to go after Antifa ro branch the same way they're going after the drug cartel. So I don't know if that means that they're going to start sniping liberals.

[Tim Miller]

From the sky like they're doing in.

[Charlie Sykes]

The Caribbean or what she meant by that, but that was the main takeaway I had.

[Sam Stein]

The details will be filled in later. No, there are some moments where Trump at one point was like, we stopped free speech. And people are like, what does he mean? What did he mean by that? But what he meant is, you can no longer burn the flag, which he didn't do. There was another point where Trump seemed to be dozing off a little bit because I think even he got a little bit bored by it. And the whole thing, it felt a little bit like we had jumped the shark a little bit. Because all these people took, you know, 10 minutes to talk about how horrifying Portland was. And I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Trump brought up the one thing I noticed is he like, they're still.

[Charlie Sykes]

Getting blocked by the judge there. So shout out to, you know, one of the main elements of resistance, the judge and the Trump appointed judge in Oregon and you know, along with the sandwich person, one of our, one of our rare heroes of the year.

[Tim Miller]

And I forgot about this during that discussion about. Oh yeah, the sandwich tosser.

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh yeah, big hero.

[Tim Miller]

During that conversation of Portland and how.

[Charlie Sykes]

Dangerous it is, et cetera, Trump said that he's under the impression they don't.

[Tim Miller]

Even have stores anymore. That they don't like when they open up new stores. They don't put glass. No, he literally said they don't put up glass window. Like if they do put up stores, there's no glass.

[Charlie Sykes]

They just immediately start with the plywood. There's no windows.

[Sam Stein]

I just want to be clear. Tim's being verbatim. The quote is verbatim. They don't even have stores anymore in Portland. What does he think? I mean, I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

I got a message from one of.

[Charlie Sykes]

My little Brother's friends for childhood. I'm like, I'm an older sibling by a lot.

[Tim Miller]

My little brother came around later, and.

[Charlie Sykes]

So I coached their basketball team when they're in kindergarten, when I was, like, in high school. And so, you know, I like, I.

[Tim Miller]

Love all those kids, and they're, like.

[Charlie Sykes]

In their, whatever, their 20s now. And one of them was in Portland.

[Tim Miller]

And he was just like. He's like, sent me some pictures of his bike ride past the ice facility, and he's like, it's crazy. He's like, you don't even understand how little is actually happening.

[Charlie Sykes]

Like, the protests aren't even really that big. And obviously there's also the video going around of, like, the people in the.

[Tim Miller]

The furries that were dancing around.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, the. The furies and the dragon costumes. And, like, there's one guy who keeps going around singing at them in a dragon costume, which I find kind of humorous, and they seem to chuckle at it, too. But they do have stores.

[Tim Miller]

They do have stores still.

[Sam Stein]

They do have stores.

[Charlie Sykes]

I. I didn't ask Tommy. I meant to ask Tommy.

[Tim Miller]

I should. I'll confirm and.

[Charlie Sykes]

And report tomorrow. Ask Tommy if it's.

[Sam Stein]

It's like when Mike Johnson said D.C. was a, quote, literal war, a literal war zone prior to Trump's intervention in.

[Tim Miller]

D.C. this is why it's just tough to balance all this. Right? Like, on the one hand, JBL writes this emergency triad earlier this week. That's like, this is the sum of all fears, basically.

[Charlie Sykes]

Like, that's like, Texas is invading Illinois.

[Tim Miller]

Insurrection act, maybe around the corner. Like, on the other hand, like, they're talking about sending troops into a place.

[Charlie Sykes]

Where there's just, like, old hippies singing this land is your land and people and furries. And, like, there's not, like. And so it's comical.

[Tim Miller]

So it's hard to kind of balance.

[Charlie Sykes]

Your head a little bit.

[Sam Stein]

It's a good point, because sometimes I think to myself, these people are idiots. Like, what are they talking about? Obviously, there are stores. Yes. They even have glass windows. And no, you could actually go to a restaurant in D.C. like, you could. And yet, at the same time, you know, I'm sure there's a huge swath of the country. I know there's a huge swath of the country that actually believes this. And, you know, so long as that's the case, they get kind of a bit of support to do these pretty outlandish things, like sending Texas National Guard into Illinois. So I do agree with you. I think it's a little bit Hard to kind of figure out how because, you know, they are, to a degree, Keystone Cops. And we'll get into the comey thing in a bit. I know, because that's.

[Tim Miller]

Let's just do it. Let's go straight into the Keystone Cops. All right. The show is sponsored by SimpliSafe. SimpliSafe is real security that stops crime before it starts. Traditional security, security systems only react and take action once someone has already broken in. Simplisafe stops crime before it even starts by confronting potential threats the moment that they appear. I don't want to be too alarmist.

[Charlie Sykes]

Or personal or scary or anything, but.

[Tim Miller]

I will say that I did definitely get some family member calls over the last month about podcaster safety. And I just have. Not by nature I'm a. Am I a reckless person? I don't know about that. But by nature I'm just not an overly cautious person. And so the health security has just never been that high priority for me. And that's a mistake.

[Charlie Sykes]

That's a mistake.

[Tim Miller]

And so we've turned to Simplisafe. And I gotta tell you, it's great. Very easy, easy to install. Everybody's feeling better now that it's in and we haven't had any issues.

[Charlie Sykes]

We got a great neighborhood, but better safe than sorry.

[Tim Miller]

And that is certainly the case with SimpliSafe. Also important to note, there are no long term contracts or hidden fees. You can cancel any time it's been. Name the best home security system by U.S. news and World Report for five years running. You get a 60 day money back guarantee. So you can try it and see the difference for yourself. Right now my listeners can save 50% off on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com thebullwork that's simplisafe.com thebullWork there's no safe like SimpliSafe. So yesterday Jim Comey pled not guilty.

[Charlie Sykes]

On both of the counts against him. He was allowed to return home on his own recognizance. He was not. Peter Navarro was very mad yesterday on some MAGA media outlets about how he.

[Sam Stein]

Was because he didn't get. Perp walked.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, he got leg chains.

[Tim Miller]

What do they call those?

[Charlie Sykes]

The leg shackles.

[Tim Miller]

He was shackled. I guess Navarro was shackled. Navarro was shackled. Yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

And so he was not happy about that. Maybe that was. I kind of don't remember the details of Peter Navarro's crimes, but he was pissed. Jim Comey just got to go home. And Comey saying that he's gonna try to get the case thrown out based on vindictive prosecution.

[Tim Miller]

And I think that there's some pretty good evidence there on that. And there's a story from the Wall Street Journal before I get. Do you have any thoughts on that before I get to the Wall Street Journal? The Journal story was really. You posted it, and I think I.

[Charlie Sykes]

Saw it when I landed in D.C.

[Tim Miller]

Yesterday, and I had to read it twice before I reposted. I was like, is this really true? So I'm just gonna read it to everybody. Folks might remember when Trump sent that truth, the bleat about, like, talking to Pam Bondi, where it said, like, Pam.

[Charlie Sykes]

And then it gave her some instructions regarding how she needs to arrest his foes. And a lot of people.

[Tim Miller]

I just want to admit this right up front. A lot of people were out there.

[Charlie Sykes]

On social media saying this was supposed to be a dm and Trump fucked it up.

[Tim Miller]

And I looked at it and I was like, no, I think Trump's just weird. And, like, was, like, posting a public. Like a public declaration and just.

[Charlie Sykes]

And just addressing it to Pam.

[Tim Miller]

I was wrong. Pundit accountability. It was an errant DM. On September 20, Trump meant to send a private message to Attorney General Pam Bondi urging her to prosecute James Comey and his other favored targets, according to U.S. officials familiar. We can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility, Trump wrote. Trump believed he had sent Bondi the message directly addressing it to Pam and was surprised to learn it was public, the official said. Bondi grew upset and called White House aides and Trump, who then agreed to send a second post praising Bondi as doing a great job. What in the fuck? How is this real?

[Sam Stein]

There's. There's a lot to unpack here. One, like, I'm with you. I'm with you. I admit, like, initially, I thought this was kind of, like, performative, and he's, like, pretending it's a dm, right? But he meant to go public. So, you know, even my depraved mind, I couldn't imagine the fuck up like that.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, our level of tds, like, this is something where people are like, you guys have tds. You think everything. You think Trump is way worse than he actually, you know, as. Who was it? One of the guys from.

[Charlie Sykes]

Was posting the other day about how.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark can't say anything nice about Trump, and they've totally lost their minds. And I was like, I was giving Trump the benefit of the doubt here, actually. Stupider than I realized.

[Sam Stein]

Like, so there's that. There's the fact that, like, this is not me giving kudos to Trump because he doesn't deserve it, but like, my dad, who's like, you know, in his early 80s, so a little bit older than Trump, but not too much older. He wouldn't know how to fucking dm. Like, Trump's way too online. He needs to be less online. Like, anyone who's 79 shouldn't be DMing as my theory in the case, I guess, also.

[Tim Miller]

But in addition to the DMing, though, I thought that it was like, Trump would not possibly as corrupt and stupid as he is. Why not just call? I could not imagine her. Yeah, I could not imagine that he possibly would have thought that the right vehicle for sending her a directive would have been Truth Social dm.

[Sam Stein]

I know.

[Tim Miller]

And that he would say to her, pam, you must prosecute Comey in a very performative manner. So weird.

[Sam Stein]

Like, if I had to, like, rank the mediums, I would have done to send that directive. I would have gone first with, like, phone or in person phone.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe an email signal, encrypted app signal.

[Sam Stein]

I don't know, even a text. A DM over Truth Social is like.

[Tim Miller]

Way park bench meeting. You know, like one of those things where you kind of all sit together.

[Sam Stein]

I don't know anything. Like, it just was so. It's just so bad. And then, I mean, obviously there's the. It's bad to direct your Attorney General to prosecute your enemies. Yes. It's bad to communicate sensitive information over Truth Social run by Devin Nunez. But also, like, it's kind of underappreciated here. But Pam Bondi, like, she's upset that he made her look bad. It's like, that's what got your go. You need him to send a secondary post. Being like, pam, you're doing a great job. It's like, it's like, no, stop directing me to do prosecutions is the problem. It's not that you said, I'm not doing a good job. Oh, my God.

[Tim Miller]

I know it's eye rolling to do this at this point, but, like, how many minutes of Fox News was spent about the tarmac meeting?

[Sam Stein]

You don't need to do that.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I don't.

[Sam Stein]

Well, I mean, it's crazy. Hillary Clinton's use of emails, all this.

[Tim Miller]

The President is directing the Attorney General to prosecute his political foes via Truth Social dm. An errant DM got publicized where he was trying to be like, ma', am, you must Prosecute these people. I hate. Did he.

[Charlie Sykes]

We need to pull this up live.

[Tim Miller]

Did he call him Shifty Shift in the dm? I'd be like, what?

[Sam Stein]

It's like, he can't break character. He's just like, it will have to be. I'm gonna have to call him Shifty shift now. Think about while you look it up. I'll just say Pam Bondi was on the Hill this past week, as you know, for the judiciary oversight hearing, and she was so indignant about everything, and she refused to admit anything to anyone and all this stuff. But what she admit. Well, I think under question was like, I just want to be clear. Sun center was like, I want to be clear. Is that Pam You? And she was like, I will concede that's probably me. It's like, yeah, it's probably she fucking DM'd you.

[Tim Miller]

I will concede that. That is probably me. That is some tough stuff. Hold on, I'm pulling up. I tested. Just so you know this, I went to test true social DMs just to see what the user experience was like and like. And whether it would be confusing.

[Sam Stein]

Who'd you DM?

[Tim Miller]

I DM'd one of our staffers, Colin Jones. Appreciate Colin, for also being on Truth with me. Turns out I could have DMed myself because I found out when I was trying to sign on that I have two Truth Social accounts I forgot about one. One is titled Cuck Slayer, and the other one. The other one is titled Fred doesn't love you.

[Sam Stein]

Why?

[Tim Miller]

Because Fred doesn't love him.

[Sam Stein]

Fred Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Fred Trump, yeah. His dad doesn't love him. So one is Cuck Slayer, the other. So I could have just DM'd myself a little bit. Well, you know, I mean, it's not always.

[Charlie Sykes]

I'm not always coming up with my best when I'm signing up for Truth Social, which apparently I've done twice.

[Tim Miller]

So, anyway, I tested it out, and yeah, it. It's. It's not that. It's not that easy to accidentally send.

[Charlie Sykes]

A dm, I guess, is my point. So, I mean, like, he really was struggling to look at it.

[Tim Miller]

He did say shifty shift. I found it here. So this is in the alleged. He's. He's DMing his attorney general, saying what about Adam? Quote, shifty shift. Oh, come on. How is that real? A woke rhino he goes after.

[Sam Stein]

Also, I'm starting to doubt the journal story. You don't DM that way. Come on.

[Tim Miller]

Unless.

[Sam Stein]

You really can't break character. Unless this just is who he is. And he can't help it.

[Tim Miller]

I think maybe he can't break character. Then he signs it. He signs it. President djt. Do you think he does that in his other messages to people like Pete, Nice job on the no fats and no femme speech. President djt.

[Sam Stein]

And then he puts a silhouette of a woman and writes his signature where the pubes should be. That's what he does. Yeah.

[Dutch Sponsor]

Okay.

[Charlie Sykes]

I don't know. I'm feeling pretty good about Jim Comey's case.

[Tim Miller]

We appreciate you, Jim Comey. I'll tell you at the show last night, big cheer for Jim Comey. Jim Comey is being rehabilitated right now.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right now.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. I was gonna say classic DC 2016 Jim Comey love. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Or may maybe it's just a special bulwark love for Jim Comey. And this might be the few the proud those who can tolerate Jim Comey. All right. Anything else on that Slayer?

[Sam Stein]

No, let's go on Cucks.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, all my topics. Comey, Chicago, Cuck, Slayer, Ceasefire, all seas.

[Charlie Sykes]

We're going to get to Candace later.

[Tim Miller]

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[Charlie Sykes]

But let me tell you, their underwear was great.

[Tim Miller]

But I also went ahead and got some of those cozy fall clothes that they reference as well and I've been rocking it. You might even see a new Mack Weldon shirt coming up on this podcast sometime soon. Mack Weldon is the go to choice for guys who want to look great without even trying. Their clothes are designed to fit your style and the demands of modern life. They look like regular clothes, but they they feel like the latest in modern comfort. Fall into comfort with Mack Weldon's ACE collection. Go to mackweldon.com and get 20% off your first order of 125 bucks or more with promo code, the Bulwark. That's M A C K W E l d o n.com promo code, the Bulwark. We have a ceasefire. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about it, but I just want to let you cook.

[Charlie Sykes]

What do you think about the news this morning?

[Sam Stein]

I want to just stress up top, like, kudos to the President if this can hold. Honestly, it would have been more amazing if this was earlier, but it's a nearly impossible conflict to solve, and it has taken way too many lives. It has caused way too much hardship. It is a human rights catastrophe that has been unfolding for two years now. And anything that can bring it to an end, you should applaud. And I have no problems applauding that. And I hope it holds. It really stepping aside from the politics, it really just, it's like, really sad too. Right? Like, I'm incredibly grateful and happy to see this happen, but it does provide a place for you to sort of think back and say what actually was done in the past years? What. What was accomplished? Like, was any of this really worth it? And obviously, you know, Israel had to respond to what happened on October 7, but what objective did they achieve? And we'll see if Hamas agrees to the phase two component, which is they do need to willfully give up their arms and their role in governance, and maybe that's worth it for Israel. But two years of incredible, horrific bloodshed. Thankfully, it's coming to an end, but it is a reminder that this shit has been horrible.

[Tim Miller]

Horrible. I'm mostly with you on that. For starters, I just want to say.

[Charlie Sykes]

I'm very happy the hostages are coming home. And I think that those images are going to be really powerful and it's.

[Tim Miller]

Been way too long.

[Charlie Sykes]

So anybody that's involved in getting that done, kudos to them.

[Tim Miller]

When you talk about it holding, like, I just want to say part of the reason it's, like, frustrating to talk.

[Charlie Sykes]

About this at all, like, for me.

[Tim Miller]

Is that in particular is that I just, I don't trust any of the.

[Charlie Sykes]

People involved in this at all.

[Tim Miller]

Like, I've.

[Charlie Sykes]

And so maybe they will all surprise me.

[Tim Miller]

And all the people being Trump, Witkoff, Kushner, B.B. hamas, obviously Cutter.

[Charlie Sykes]

Like, there's no player in there that.

[Tim Miller]

I'm like, that's a.

[Charlie Sykes]

That's somebody that I, I really feel like is a reliable, good faith actor. And so I'm just like, I don't.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, like, we'll see. Maybe they all will surprise me. And like, this is a good step.

[Charlie Sykes]

I just, I think that also tbd.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, like, I'm at Siegel. Do you ever read him? He's got this newsletter, it's called.

[Charlie Sykes]

It's a Newton in Israel maybe, I.

[Tim Miller]

Think is what it's called called. He's like super plugged in to.

[Charlie Sykes]

I was asking folks who are kind of more sympathetic to Israel.

[Tim Miller]

I was like, I want to read.

[Charlie Sykes]

More from that perspective, right? And what's a good thing to read?

[Tim Miller]

And they'd suggested this newsletter and this.

[Charlie Sykes]

Guy'S very plugged in with baby government. And he wrote this, which I thought was interesting. He goes, there's no phase two. Actually, that's clear to everyone. Phase two might happen someday, but it's unrelated to what's just been signed. The deal signed now is a hostage release deal. It doesn't imply anything about the future. Theoretically, fantasies is the word he used. This could come true. Emiratis and allies dismantling tunnels and international body form. Tony Blair governing Gaza. Obviously this is from his perspective. That wouldn't really be my fantasy.

[Tim Miller]

All this could happen in theory, but.

[Charlie Sykes]

It'S not part of the current negotiations. What we have now is a hostage deal and a ceasefire while talks continue in good faith. I saw somebody who is from the more plugged in on the Hamas side or the Palestine side, whatever you want to call it. The basically was saying the same.

[Tim Miller]

So I don't.

[Charlie Sykes]

I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

So I'm like, I'm a little skeptical dancer. Just one other thing on other exceptions.

[Charlie Sykes]

Just from trying to read people who.

[Tim Miller]

Are actually experts on this, which is not me this morning.

[Charlie Sykes]

Dan Shapiro is Biden's envoy to Israel. He's in foreign policy and he has a piece this morning basically says Trump's style. This kind of madman theory, like, demonstrates.

[Tim Miller]

It kind of worked more for like.

[Charlie Sykes]

Forcing people to the table on this and getting this part done, but that.

[Tim Miller]

It'S like a less effective method for.

[Charlie Sykes]

The more sustaining process in the future.

[Tim Miller]

Which I think is probably fair analysis.

[Charlie Sykes]

So anyway, I don't know what did you make any of that?

[Sam Stein]

Well, I want to talk to Dan. He might come on to Bulwark Takes if we can get him. But yeah, I don't disagree with any of that. And I think it's important to remember that there was actually a kind of a ceasefire deal that took hold in the spring with Trump and then it fell apart. And then of course, over the summer you had know, reports of mass starvation in Gaza and questions about whether Israel is just going to go and overtake Gaza City. So, yeah, there's no reason that anyone should be completely optimistic about long term stability in the region. And frankly, you know, Netanyahu has already right wing cabinet members saying this is not good. He's got pressure from the right. It's unclear if there's any moderate left party in Israel that could apply the same amount of pressure. And then you have Hamas that will, if they remain in any sort of political power position, is not going to just go quietly. So tons of question marks surrounding this and real doubt about long term sustainability of anything here. But a cessation of the fights and the return of the hostages is fundamental and you can't move to any phase two unless you get to phase one. And so I go back to thinking, these hostages, this deal probably could have been achieved a year ago, a year and a half ago. It really could have in tens of thousands.

[Charlie Sykes]

The outlines of it are not that different from what Blinken was proposing.

[Sam Stein]

It is exactly what you suspect. It's we're gonna give you back hostages dead and alive. You're gonna give us back prisoners that you've taken. We're going to have a sort of retrenchment of the IDF forces, you're going to have a buffer zone. And then we'll talk about a longer term political settlement. It's not that complicated actually. And instead they spent a year and a half going back and forth, allowing Israel, frankly, to cause incredible havoc in hopes of getting something better. And we ended up at a place where I think pretty much everyone suspected we would end up if we ever got to a resolution. In a way, it makes me really like, sad again to think that what was lost.

[Tim Miller]

As you point about the sadness, I.

[Charlie Sykes]

Saw this post from Mark Polymeropoulos, who's a former CIA guy, which I really, I thought it was good perspective as you kind of think about, obviously the good news that the hostages are coming home. But then he writes like, the trauma and horror of all this is about to come much more real for the public. Hostages return after two years in captivity, likely with terrible accounts of their suffering. They're going to look horrible. And then he said, ostensibly we will see whether now journalists will be able to enter Gaza and they'll be able to witness love more firsthand. The devastation that we're seeing in Gaza.

[Tim Miller]

The trauma of that, the toll on.

[Charlie Sykes]

That, how that kind of impacts phase two negotiations and what comes next. And I just think that there's a lot of Potential for fallout there.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, humanities can be pretty terrible to each other. It's awful.

[Tim Miller]

Are you ready for this, Mickey? Coss, I want to do one piece of objective.

[Sam Stein]

Why are we going on Mickey?

[Tim Miller]

Okay, well, he was the one. I remembered who it was. He was the one that said the.

[Charlie Sykes]

Bork never can compliment Trump. Here's my one piece of thing, Mickey.

[Sam Stein]

I have a history with Mickey and that hurts.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, well, Mickey, here you go.

[Charlie Sykes]

I'm going to compliment Donald Trump.

[Tim Miller]

We're really lucky that Donald Trump wants.

[Charlie Sykes]

A peace prize and not world domination.

[Tim Miller]

There's a version of Trump that is.

[Charlie Sykes]

Much more focused on his legacy being whatever Greenland or US expansion to Panama.

[Tim Miller]

Or whatever a Putin style obsession with, with their kind of legacy of expanding empire. It's not crazy to imagine a version of Trump that's.

[Charlie Sykes]

That is like that and like that's.

[Tim Miller]

The main thing that is their obsession. And the fact that he, that his.

[Charlie Sykes]

Self, his assessment of his self or what, what he wants to be known for is as a deal maker because of his real estate time. Because he wrote a book the Art of.

[Tim Miller]

It's kind of like thank God he.

[Charlie Sykes]

Wrote a book the Art of the.

[Tim Miller]

Deal because the fact that that is what his obsession is. He wants to be seen as the guy that gets peace deals done.

[Charlie Sykes]

I'll take it.

[Tim Miller]

It could be worse.

[Charlie Sykes]

How about that?

[Sam Stein]

You make a good case for the Nobel Committee to not give him the prize, to just dangle it out there to keep him going. Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And I hear they supposed to. They had to decide on Monday, so the timing on this isn't great for him. So maybe, maybe 2026, Donnie? Yeah, maybe 2026.

[Sam Stein]

I'm assuming you've seen all the over the top members of Congress rename the Nobel Prize Peace Prize. The Donald Trump Peace Prize.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I saw Javier Milei, the Argentine leader that we just bailed out with.

[Charlie Sykes]

$20 billion is like, I will officially nominate Donald Trump.

[Tim Miller]

It's like, okay, I'd rather keep our.

[Charlie Sykes]

20 billion than have.

[Sam Stein]

So he's been nominated by like 18 different people at this point. It doesn't take much to nominate the guy.

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[Tim Miller]

All right, back to our usual bullshit.

[Sam Stein]

This is real zigzags.

[Tim Miller]

It's not like he's only about peace deals. We are still currently bombing people in the Caribbean. Bombing people in the Caribbean. And the President of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, put out a statement claiming that one of these strikes had hit a Colombian boat with Colombian citizens inside. We'll see. We don't know. The thing to me that is the most alarming about all this is like, this is an illegal war about nothing. Like, the war is about nothing. We are bombing boats out of the Caribbean with no real objective. And I guess there's some reporting that we have an objective of regime change in Venezuela, which is like, okay, I guess maybe we'll see if that's what Marco Rubio tries to push through. But, like, like, it's insane that we are just bombing boats for, like, no real reason.

[Sam Stein]

The fact that you said we don't know if there were Colombian citizens is a problem, right? Like, you should probably know who you're bombing before you do it. I'm laughing. Why am I laughing? It's so fucked.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. Do you have a therapist? That might be something to talk about.

[Charlie Sykes]

With the therapist while you laugh.

[Sam Stein]

No, it's a defensive mechanism. Obviously it is.

[Tim Miller]

Can I tell you something?

[Charlie Sykes]

Gosh, I'm going to get in big trouble with my mother for bringing this up.

[Sam Stein]

Don't worry.

[Charlie Sykes]

Don't tell her, everybody. She was a respiratory therapist.

[Sam Stein]

Okay.

[Charlie Sykes]

And. And she was like, this was a big problem for her in the hospital, which is, like, in moments of, like, seriousness, discomfort and discomfort, she would laugh.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I. This is a problem when my. This happens all the time with my kids. I don't know if this happens with your kids where it's like when they get super angry and they start, like, freaking out, like, like, I just can't help but laugh. And that just makes them matter, like, much, much madder. And then that makes me laugh even harder. And my wife has to be like, leave the room.

[Tim Miller]

Leave the room, Sam. And I just.

[Sam Stein]

I can't. I can't stop.

[Charlie Sykes]

That does not happen to me on the peacemaker in my household.

[Sam Stein]

You're the Donald Trump. Blessed be the peacemaker. The cuck slayer. Now back to Colombia and the boat. It's crazy. They tried to put a war resolution. They did put a war resolution on the Senate floor. Adam Schiff did, and it got voted down. And essentially, what's happening here is that the Pentagon's just basically bombing targets without giving us any indication of who's on these boats, and essentially, and basically saying, well, trust us, these are drug smugglers. And we're doing this because it's a war on fentanyl.

[Tim Miller]

There's no urgent drug crisis. There's no evidence that this is fentanyl.

[Charlie Sykes]

They don't.

[Tim Miller]

This is cocaine. This isn't fentanyl. The fentanyl comes from China and Mexico, and people can make it here. Nobody's even making the accusation that there's.

[Charlie Sykes]

A Venezuelan fentanyl trade.

[Dutch Sponsor]

Correct.

[Tim Miller]

So what, we're bombing people because of cocaine? That's what. There's a coke crisis down the country.

[Sam Stein]

I think your point is probably valid, which is there's a larger angle here around Venezuela and trying to provoke them to do some sort of response that could be escalatory, and then you have sort of some rationalization for, you know, doing something even grander, like regime change. But, you know, beyond a few members. I know Todd Young voted against the war resolution, but said he was deeply concerned about what's going on. Like, Rand Paul has been good on this, but, like, that's it. And you gotta be like, what is the. We say this all the time, but, like, your job as a member of the Congress is oversight is authorizing these types of things, and to just basically abdicate that and say, yeah, go ahead and bomb. What are you doing there? Have some dignity.

[Tim Miller]

Do we know who's for this? This is basically just Marco. It's Marco. And Pete Hegseth wants to get butched up because there is this internal tension right. Within the administration.

[Sam Stein]

Definitely Marco. Definitely Hegseth. But there was a lot of reporting about Rick Grenell and him having some sort of different. I didn't get too deep into it. I don't know if you saw it. I don't know. I guess there is some tension in there. But again, this goes back to the PR elements of it, too. Every time they blow up a boat, they absolutely rush to dissemin on all their channels. And look at us.

[Charlie Sykes]

This isn't actually that much of a zigzag from what my point about Trump.

[Tim Miller]

The administration simultaneously, like, wants to represent.

[Charlie Sykes]

Donald Trump as his dealmaker who does a lot of peace deals. And, like, that's important to Donald Trump and to his own identity. And so they want to project that.

[Tim Miller]

But they also want to project that they're tough guys.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right. Fuck around and find out.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And so you can't be a Fuck around and find out guy.

[Charlie Sykes]

And also a give peace a chance, Blessed be the peacemakers guy.

[Tim Miller]

Right. Like there's. There's an internal tension there. And so they're trying to solve that.

[Charlie Sykes]

I think, by being like, we're the peacemaker guys in these overseas deals. But in our little sphere of influence here with the migrants and with the drugs, we're going to butch up.

[Tim Miller]

I think that's what's happening.

[Sam Stein]

I disagree a little bit maybe, but I think a twist on it is I think they believe that by being overtly tough to the point where you're blowing boats up and, you know, detaining and arresting anyone who looks brown or illegal here, that you can create peace. Right. Like that's how they would rationalize it, is you just get rid of, you know, just eliminate all the badness from the world and you can then live in some sort of utopia. But of course, that's not how reality works.

[Tim Miller]

We're taking a hard turn into politics world. But before I get to kind of some. Some campaign stuff, did you get to do anything on Candace yesterday or was that just JVL and Sarah?

[Sam Stein]

So I edited Will. I edited his newsletter, but I didn't do the video.

[Tim Miller]

But you've not spoken about this.

[Sam Stein]

I've not spoken about it.

[Charlie Sykes]

I think we should do it.

[Tim Miller]

I was weighing back and forth whether or not we should do. We should talk about Candace, and I think we should. I think people deserve it. It's Thursday. We've had some heavy material. Candace is kind of a medium now.

[Charlie Sykes]

Between the living and the dead, and.

[Tim Miller]

I'd like to hear from her.

[Candace Owens]

Had a vivid dream this weekend, and Charlie came to me and he told me that he was betrayed. And so for me, you don't have to believe that, but I do believe that.

[Charlie Sykes]

That.

[Candace Owens]

And it was the immediate sense I got, actually. And I don't know who exactly it is that betrayed him, but I also felt in the dream that it is soon going to be revealed that it's actually inevitable that it is going to be revealed that there is nothing and no one that is going to stop the truth from coming out. And it is going to have international consequences. Take that to the bank. Quote me on that.

[Tim Miller]

We're quoting you, Candace. It's going to have international consequences. What do you think? Who do you think might have betrayed Charlie internationally? Sam, do you have any thoughts on which?

[Sam Stein]

Obviously the Jews. And the Jews. Let's be clear. She's been dangling this idea that, you know, Israel is responsible for the assassination and Charlie was getting pressured by Jewish donors because he wouldn't break ties with Tucker Carlson. And you should just. For folks who actually like this stuff, go read False Flag. Will's got it covered. It's so gross. And you know, some of the, that they, they throw at each other, I can't even understand. I will say I understand the idea of someone coming to you in their dream and saying that you've been betrayed happens to me a lot.

[Tim Miller]

Did the Jews betray you or no.

[Sam Stein]

No, no, no, no. In my dreams, my newsletter writers come to me and say, you, you betrayed me, Sam. And I get haunted by that. So no. Kansas is a little bit nutty. The other thing though, and Will's writing about this today about Candace, which I think we should, you know, we're rightfully laughing at this, this seance.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not laughing.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, you are.

[Charlie Sykes]

I'm taking very seriously your girl Megan.

[Sam Stein]

Kelly that you seem to have some sort of relationship with online. Will is. Will's writing about her today. Meg Kelly's under a lot of pressure to, to, you know, criticize Candace Owens for what she's saying about Charlie Kirk because Meg Kelly's friends, Charlie Kirk, Ben Kelly, won't do it. In Will's theory, the case is that Candace Owens is just too powerful now. Yeah, just too powerful.

[Tim Miller]

This is important. Like why do we talk about this? And this is, these guys numbers are huge. And I want to play a clip from Tucker next.

[Charlie Sykes]

And I have a little bit more. Sure.

[Tim Miller]

But Sam Altman, I talked about this on yesterday's show. Sam Altman did an interview with Tucker, which is insane.

[Sam Stein]

He did, yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh yeah. I guess you don't listen to yesterday's podcast. You probably should.

[Tim Miller]

Sam Altman, who might end up being the most powerful private sector individual in the country, probably, if he's not already, is likely to be soon. He felt like he needed to sit down with Tucker. The numbers that Tucker and Candace do are crazy.

[Sam Stein]

Throw Nick Fuentes in the mix, man, because these people are really, really powerful. They have incredible online following. And you know, the power brokers in conservative media have shifted. Even we thought things were like really bad heading into this administration. Since this administration, the real power brokers in conservative media are just even further out on the spectrum. And Fuentes and Owens are two of them. Benny Johnson is obviously becoming one or trying to become one. The Megyn Kelly's of the world who were, you know, from main more mainstream outlets and actually believed in like some version of reporting. And I guess the truth at some point in their Careers they no longer are, are, you know, the real power brokers. They understand where it is.

[Tim Miller]

Well, no, man, that's why Megan's dabbling in that. Because Megan's numbers, if you look at the Ben Shapiro's, like, numbers are trying to decline, like he's the responsible one. Like, that's where things have happened is.

[Charlie Sykes]

Like, you know, relative to this other stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of irresponsibility, I want.

[Charlie Sykes]

I just want to play a Tucker clip as well. This is from, I believe, this week's show.

[Tucker Carlson]

Why is America moving towards civil war? For the same reason all countries that wind up in civil war get there. Because the differences between their population, between people within their borders becomes too great to bear. People decide I have nothing in common with people who live near me and I don't want to live near them anymore. In other words, diversity. Difference is actually intolerable to most people. Not necessarily racial diversity, though sometimes that too. But diversity of all kinds, it is not our strength. In fact, it is without question our weakness and has always been.

[Tim Miller]

I want to talk about the merits of what he's saying really quick and why I'm worried about it. But just before that, I just want to flag this a little tell for everybody.

[Charlie Sykes]

Anybody who watch Rounders, you know, it knows that sometimes poker players have a tell. For Cody kgb, it was the oreo that he ate.

[Sam Stein]

Can you do your Malkovich? Russian accent I can't do it.

[Charlie Sykes]

Russian accent.

[Tim Miller]

So his tell was eating the Oreo. The tell for Tucker and Candace and these people is the word.

[Charlie Sykes]

Actually.

[Tim Miller]

It's the word, actually. Tucker does this all the time. He's like, diversity.

[Charlie Sykes]

Diversity is not our strength, actually.

[Tim Miller]

It's our weakness, actually. Candace is like, in my dreams, the spirit of Charlie Kirk told me he was betrayed. And I believe that. Actually.

[Charlie Sykes]

If you feel like you need.

[Tim Miller]

To say, actually, you don't really believe.

[Charlie Sykes]

It, I don't think.

[Tim Miller]

I think that is your way of just of trying to emphasize a point that, you know, is ridiculous. Anyway, so that's just a little tell for everybody. Just a little tip when you're out there listening to these guys, actually is their tell. The Tucker Civil War thing is pretty alarming because it's something I brought up.

[Charlie Sykes]

A couple of times, but I just. I want to keep chewing on it.

[Tim Miller]

Because the Ken Burns interview, he was talking about this optim, the thing that worked in the revolution was that a lot of the principles of the Founding.

[Charlie Sykes]

And the Declaration were these aspirational principles that obviously these guys didn't live up to.

[Tim Miller]

And that Some of them didn't even.

[Charlie Sykes]

Really believe could be lived up to.

[Tim Miller]

Putting that idea made it happen.

[Charlie Sykes]

They manifested something that they wanted to happen imperfectly.

[Tim Miller]

And I'm very concerned about the inverse.

[Charlie Sykes]

Of this happening right now.

[Tim Miller]

This stuff wasn't happening before. Prominent people were not talking about how.

[Charlie Sykes]

Civil war might happen.

[Tim Miller]

And I worry that just that idea getting out kind of leads, in some.

[Charlie Sykes]

Ways, sort of leads us to a place where it becomes reality because it.

[Tim Miller]

Is in the ether.

[Charlie Sykes]

I'm not saying that we're imminently at.

[Tim Miller]

Risk of civil war, but it's very.

[Charlie Sykes]

Dangerous, and I think that it's important to rebut it rather than kind of be like, oh, Tucker's crazy.

[Sam Stein]

Well, that's a good point, actually.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you.

[Charlie Sykes]

Actually, actually, thank you.

[Tim Miller]

Everyone's rolling that.

[Charlie Sykes]

Good point.

[Sam Stein]

That's my tell. Everyone's. It wasn't a good point. No, I will disagree. I will disagree with you on one front.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, great.

[Sam Stein]

I don't think this is all that new. I feel like there's always been a strand of people, including in the commentariat, who have argued that, you know, diversity is not our strength, that we are destined for civil war, that we should succeed, or that our populations aren't meant to be integrated. I do think that's just a strand of our history. I think the difference here is that the dissemination of these viewpoints is a lot wider. I think some of it is embraced by more official government entities and politicians. I think people are trying to take advantage of the sense of division, obviously, as Tucker is doing right here. And so that makes it scarier, and it makes it more likely to cause real strife and problems. But, you know, I don't know if it's necessarily all that distinct from other parts of our. Of our history, actually.

[Tim Miller]

I think you're wrong, actually. I mean, not me, not our history. But in present days, I think it's pretty.

[Charlie Sykes]

I think the proliferation of it is noticeably different from when we were growing up.

[Sam Stein]

Well, we grew up in the 90s when everything was fucking awesome.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, that's true.

[Tim Miller]

And I want to be. Can I be corny for second?

[Sam Stein]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

Because it is not only dangerous, it's just fundamentally wrong. And. And I think it's important that we.

[Charlie Sykes]

Both rebut them, but also mock it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I. I was outside of 30.

[Charlie Sykes]

Rock last week, and a. A woman came up to me from Georgia in a nice Southern accent. She just. She was excited to see me. She watched msnbc. It was really sweet, you know, did it.

[Tim Miller]

Said hi, did a little selfie and, and as, as I was waiting for my Uber, she said, you know, I'm up here and I just, I don't understand why we're. Everyone's so at their throats, each other's throats. She's like, I'm walking down the street here in New York and there are people of every race and a different, you know, rich people, poor people, and everybody seems happy and fine and vibrant. Everything seems normal. Things don't seem dangerous in any way. And I don't understand why these things have spiraled out of control. And like, that is a corny sentiment that is just right. That is just the correct. Like, it is a corny sentiment that is correct. We are all fine. The vast, vast majority of people, even those people that disagree with us in the country, are not looking for a civil war, are not interested in blood, are not interested in revolution.

[Charlie Sykes]

And we should mock these people that.

[Tim Miller]

Say that they want it. And Tucker should just have to walk around liberal places and I think he would realize that people would maybe shout nasty things at him, but things would be fine.

[Charlie Sykes]

It would be fine. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Well, a lot of what Tucker is doing is just of self fulfilling, right? Like, because you talk about, you know, how we're so close to a civil war, you're fomenting it. Right? Like, and also, as, you know, like, I'm a big believer in the fact that people can, if they just talk to each other, actually can, you know, realize that there's a collective humanity and that we're not totally different and we can be civil to each other. Like, just have a civil conversation. I believe that. I fundamentally do believe that. It's why I stupidly call people up all the time just to just talk about why they, they call me, you know, a piece of shit on Twitter. And also it's self refuting. Donald Trump's own rise for whatever you want to say about Donald Trump has been built on the idea that you can convert people who are liberal into being maga. Like, that's it. Like, he constantly boasts about all the Hispanics and black voters he's brought into his tent, all the disaffected liberals, all the maha people who were once tree huggers and hated, you know, Skittles because of the red dye and now love maga. Like, Donald Trump's entire political existence is predicated in an idea that you can convert people to your cause and that we are not so rigid now. I don't think Donald Trump's actually bringing the country together, but that's another point I think what Tucker says is just fundamentally wrong. And I think you're right. He should be mocked for it because it's so cynical and it's so small in its scope and it just is so. It's such a negative reflection on how he views people. People not of people themselves.

[Charlie Sykes]

I want to read one other critique of Candace and Tucker.

[Sam Stein]

Sure.

[Charlie Sykes]

Was from Dinesh d'. Souza. Very insightful point. I think that he made Dartmouth my man.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Fellow fellow Dartmouth alums.

[Sam Stein]

Fellow Dartmouth alum.

[Tim Miller]

Was it Dinesh that did a lot of anti gay stuff? The newspaper Dartmouth, or was that Laura Ingram? He was in the love triangle with her.

[Sam Stein]

I think they were at the Review together and it might have been anti gay, but it also might have been pro apartheid. I'm not totally sure.

[Tim Miller]

You got a pro apartheid thing.

[Sam Stein]

There's a big thing about shantytowns in the college campsite.

[Tim Miller]

I've been trying to pitch a story to Hollywood. I know we have some Hollywood people listen about Dinesh and Laura Ingraham in college and then how they got into a love triangle with Ann Coulter and have it be like a comedy, like a romance comedy, a rom com.

[Sam Stein]

Wait, if you just set it to a musical of some sort and you could be the next Hamilton, I think.

[Tim Miller]

I think it would do really well.

[Charlie Sykes]

Hollywood.

[Tim Miller]

Just talk to me if you're interested in that. Here's what Dinesh said about Lin Manuel. Here's Dinesh. I can't comment on Candace because it's quite obviously a freak show. Hard to argue with that on Dinesh. Agree with that. It's like driving on the highway and seeing a farmer having sex with a sheep. Okay, you lose me a little bit. Then he goes on.

[Sam Stein]

I just couldn't believe he said that.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, all right. So I'm just going to repeat in case he will miss it. It's like driving on the highway and seeing a farmer having sex with a sheep. And he goes on, you don't want to look, but you can't look away either. Really? You can't look away either. Candace, wait.

[Sam Stein]

Before we get to the reply, I want to take a moment on that tweet because one, how fast are you going on the highway that you can even see it? Like, are you. What kind of highway are we talking about? Where is the farm? Why is the farm so close to the highway? And why is the sheep right, so close to the road? Get those sheep away from the road. Why do you want to watch?

[Tim Miller]

That's just rubbernecking. Swamming on the Brakes. Is that like farmer and a sheep thrusting his cock into that sheep? Is that good?

[Sam Stein]

Honey, hold on.

[Tim Miller]

Put it in reverse.

[Sam Stein]

That's a farmer fucking a sheep. Sheep. Like, what is Dinesh talking about? Horrible.

[Tim Miller]

It's a sheep's vagina. Okay, Candace. Or is it a butt? Maybe it's the butt, I guess.

[Charlie Sykes]

I don't know.

[Sam Stein]

The gender of the sheep is obviously.

[Tim Miller]

Candace. Candace replies. Who openly admits that they wouldn't look away if they watched a person having sex with a farm animal. Fair point by Candace. Dinesh. I was being humorous. Candace. Humor is typically landed upon with relatability. I don't know what's on your laptop, but most people cannot relate to feeling fascinated by farmers having sex with their sheep. Hope this helps. I mean, how bad at this do you have to be of your Dinesh d'? Souza? That Candace Owens, who is currently holding a seance with the death. With the spirit of Charlie Kirk and talking about how the Jews killed him, and you decide to pick a Twitter fight with her and she annihilates you. How do you get annihilated by somebody that believes that they're talking. Is advancing an anti Semitic spirit argument?

[Sam Stein]

Candice was probably like, hold on, Charlie Kirk ghost. I gotta. I gotta respond to Dinesh, who's made some absurd sheep joke on Twitter. Like the whole thing. These people and yet society, they're running. They're running the.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I'm going to just do a.

[Charlie Sykes]

Dealer'S choice for you. Maybe I'll do the rest of it on YouTube. We'll do a little bonus for people.

[Tim Miller]

Here are a couple options for my politics things I wanted to talk about. One, is AOC just crushing Stephen Miller, your friend, and going at him, he called you repugnant. And then AOC shot back and said, he's like a small man. He's like 4 foot 0. He's little.

[Sam Stein]

Just to be clear, AOC shut back in my honor. Right.

[Tim Miller]

In your honor. And AOC came to your defense fence. And then. And then she called him short. And then her viewers got mad at her, and then she had to do an apology.

[Charlie Sykes]

Video viewers actually get mad.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I'm just. I'm I'm just letting you know. She did a video where she apologized and said she wants to shout out short kings. I have the audio for that. That's one option if you want to hear that apology. Or people can just check that out themselves. Another option for videos or audio that we have for people is Katie Porter, who was. Which I never understood how this was possible, but she was the front runner in the California governor's race till recently. She has an utter meltdown on Sacramento tv. Democratic candidate for California governor. We could play that. There's also Hakeem Jeffries on the positive.

[Charlie Sykes]

Engagement side on the Democrats.

[Tim Miller]

A rare attaboy for Hakeem out there.

[Charlie Sykes]

Hakeem goes nose to nose with Mike.

[Tim Miller]

Lawler, the Republican congressman for New York.

[Charlie Sykes]

Kind of owns him.

[Tim Miller]

Those are my three.

[Charlie Sykes]

Which one of those do you want to do, you want to do for our close?

[Sam Stein]

I'm going to do the one that probably is going to anger people the most, but I have the most to say about that. Katie Porter.

[Tim Miller]

Let's listen.

[Katie Porter]

I don't want to keep doing this. I'm going to call it. Thank you.

[Sam Stein]

You're not going to do the interview with us?

[Katie Porter]

Nope, not like this, I'm not. Not with seven follow ups to every single question you ask every other candidate has answered. I don't care. I want to have a pleasant, positive conversation which you ask me about every issue on this list. And if every question you're going to make up a follow up question, then we're never going to get there and we're just going to circle around. I have never had to do this before, ever. You've never had to have to end an interview.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, but every other candidate has done this.

[Katie Porter]

What part of I'm me, I'm running for governor because I'm a leader.

[Tim Miller]

I'm a leader. I am a leader. And a leader does not deal with follow up questions from, from Bitrate down market, local news anchors from Sacramento. I am a leader.

[Sam Stein]

Sam, she's acting like this reporter was saying, hey, can you put staples in your eyes? You have to make it through 10 minutes of questions. Just give me a fucking break. Come on.

[Tim Miller]

The questions for people who have not.

[Charlie Sykes]

Seen the full video, it's much longer.

[Tim Miller]

What I played were about essentially the question was 40% of California voted for Trump.

[Charlie Sykes]

Trump. How do you reach them? What is your message for those people?

[Sam Stein]

It was the most generic, just like.

[Tim Miller]

How do you talk to Trump voters.

[Charlie Sykes]

If you're a Democrat? Was essentially the question. And Katie just got very wrapped around the axle.

[Sam Stein]

On the one hand you could just say, I welcome everyone to my coalition, yada, yada, yada, like any normal person say. On the other hand, you could say, this is me, I'm a leader and I've never had to do something like this. Answer seven, follow. And it's like she has some qualities that are good about her and, you know, I appreciate some of the policies that she pursued, but, like, attitudinally, you gotta expect more from the people who you like than that, frankly. And I know people are like, well.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know, actually, actually, Frank, frankly, frankly, I agree.

[Tim Miller]

And. And I gotta say, this is a.

[Charlie Sykes]

Gift for the Democrats.

[Tim Miller]

So if you. Even if you're a Katie Porter fan, that's teach their own. But if you're a Democrat out there.

[Charlie Sykes]

There, you should be grateful she had.

[Tim Miller]

This meltdown because the Democratic governor candidate.

[Charlie Sykes]

Field in California was preposterous. The Katie has a lot of flaws as a candidate. The other candidate was Mayor Villagarrosa, who's run like a hundred times and is not exactly the person that you're looking for if you're looking to reform and reignite the animal spirits of California.

[Tim Miller]

And so hopefully this. Before this all happened, I was talking to our friends over at Crooked Media, and I was saying, I want Dan Pfeiffer. I want Dan Pfeiffer.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yes, we. Dan. And before all this happened, I was.

[Tim Miller]

Like, this field is terrible. You guys all live in California. Either find somebody that is good to run for governor of the fucking biggest state in the country or else Dan.

[Charlie Sykes]

Has to do it. Yes, we. Dan.

[Tim Miller]

And so maybe Dan gets in now or maybe some other.

[Charlie Sykes]

Other folks will emerge when they see just how embarrassing this field is.

[Sam Stein]

Dan, are we sure Dan doesn't have similar temperamental issues?

[Tim Miller]

I've never seen Dan. Does he have a temperamental.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, he's called me up and reamed me. He's called me up and reamed me out a few times for some Stu stories.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know, we're going to end it here.

[Tim Miller]

I don't want to.

[Charlie Sykes]

I have a message that's also asked Katie, Katie Porter assault the reporter.

[Tim Miller]

And I just want to say that that isn't. There's a hilarious AI video that is out. So this ties to yesterday. It's so ridiculous podcast that I also believed. Okay, so no shame. You did not believe that for one second. The first second I was like, wait a minute. Did Katie touch the reporter? Because the video is very, very realistic.

[Charlie Sykes]

Realistic. But then it becomes kind of silly after a while. They start, like, tumbling on the ground.

[Tim Miller]

This.

[Charlie Sykes]

I believe it was made via Sora, which we talked about on yesterday's pod. We're going. The AI videos, man. It's gonna. It's a different world.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Again, real out of control. It's a bad, bad thing.

[Tim Miller]

How are you feeling? You good? Do you need to get baptized in Jim Beam after this podcast or are you feeling like for a little bit.

[Sam Stein]

Of a more elevated bourbon than beam.

[Tim Miller]

But okay, do you think?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, right.

[Tim Miller]

Are you concerned about my Katie Porter esque behavior this morning?

[Sam Stein]

Look, I'm all for demanding bosses, but you gotta be human.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, okay.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, I'm.

[Tim Miller]

I'm. I'm sometimes on the side of bosses in these situations. I was. Anyway, hopefully my spirits felt good on the podcast because we had a little bit of a rocky start. I had a Katie Porter moment.

[Sam Stein]

I wasn't gonna bring it up, but you.

[Tim Miller]

Nobody got it on camera though, so it didn't happen.

[Sam Stein]

No, they did get it on camera.

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh, really?

[Tim Miller]

Okay, well, let's see what it looks like in public. I am a leader, Sam. I am a leader.

[Sam Stein]

Tolerate this studio.

[Tim Miller]

I am a leader of the Bulwark. Is it Friday? No, it's Thursday. We have another podcast tomorrow. Everybody, I appreciate Sam Stein very much. We'll be back tomorrow for another edition of the Bull podcast. We'll see you all tomorrow.

[Charlie Sykes]

Bye. PE.

[Zach Bryan]

This table, boys. You bring your shame. I lose my voice screaming at the gods about your bad We've done Merle said Mama tried but the prison still won. Your transgressions are mine as well.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well.

[Zach Bryan]

Anger grows in my bones if you could not tell. But I'll find comfort and company. Lord forgive us, my boys and me, we're having an all night revival. Some call the women and some will steal the bible for the sake my survival. Baptize me in a bottle of bean vagina on the bottom. Well the devil can't scrap what the Lord has won. I'll talk to him on the rising suns his son arose and mine did too. I was coming down but now I'm talking to you. Cause we're having an all night revival. Some call the women, some will steal the bibles for sake my survival. Baptize me in a pile of bean vagina.

[Tim Miller]

The board podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.