The Bulwark Podcast – "Sam Stein and Talmon Smith: Brain Drain"

Date: August 28, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Sam Stein (Managing Editor, The Bulwark), Talmon Smith (Economics Reporter, NYT)

Episode Overview

This episode takes a sobering tour through recent American crises—mass shootings and government dysfunction—before examining the political assaults on key institutions like the CDC and Federal Reserve. Tim Miller brings on Sam Stein to reflect on persistent gun violence, the disturbing trend of expert “purges” from government agencies, foreign policy missteps, and the state of Democratic strategy. The conversation then pivots to Talmon Smith, who unpacks the attempted firing of Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook, the implications for economic stability, and the anniversary of Hurricane Katrina as a lens on inequality and resilience.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Minneapolis School Shooting and America’s "Groundhog Day" Tragedy

[00:58–11:44]

• Reflections on Tragedy Fatigue:

  • Sam Stein describes mass shootings as having become so customary that their "lack of extraordinaryness is the defining feature" (01:40).
  • Personal impact: Sam now has children doing shooting drills at school, deepening the fear and dread.
  • Critique of cultural response: Both Tim and Sam bemoan how shootings immediately become fodder for partisan blame games, with people hoping the perpetrator aligns with the opposing political side.

    "There seems to be like this natural instinct inside you that immediately goes to, I hope it was the other guys that did this one ... we have to re-deprogram ourselves from all of that." – Tim Miller (04:02)

  • Disgust at efforts to slice statistics: e.g. right-wing attempts to attribute mass violence to trans people or other minorities miss the fundamental issue—America’s easy access to guns.

    "There is one underlying feature through all this. Easy access to guns." – Sam Stein (05:42)

  • The futility of "fortifying schools": Shooters simply bypass security measures; without addressing gun access, solutions are superficial (05:55).

• Failures in Domestic Terror Prevention:

  • Miller questions why law enforcement isn't picking up obvious threats posted openly online, pointing to a broader government deprioritization of domestic terror in favor of immigration crackdowns (07:43–09:23).
  • Stein: Red flag laws work, but the proliferation of easily accessible firearms is the main issue regardless.

• Media & Policy Response:

  • Criticism of politicians (focusing on SSRIs rather than policy), especially the HHS secretary, RFK Jr., who instead targets antidepressants and spouts pseudoscience about "mitochondrial challenges" in children (10:10–11:48; see also [17:38–21:34]).

2. Government Expert Exodus—CDC, Federal Agencies, and the "Brain Drain"

[13:27–23:39]

• CDC Mass Resignations:

  • Reports of a “purge” at the highest CDC levels as experts resign rather than participate in policies they believe "could hurt people" [quoting a resigning official: "[I would] protect science until they were asked to do something that could hurt people"] (14:40).

    "We're at a place where our trusted public health officials ... believe that our leadership is actively hurting the population. And wrapping your head around that is really hard." – Sam Stein (15:19)

  • Context: The CDC director was told by RFK Jr. (now HHS head) to support anti-vaxx stances, such as restricting COVID boosters, or fire staff who refused. When the director refused, top officials quit in protest.

• Intimidation and Attacks on Institutions:

  • Two weeks prior, a man fired hundreds of rounds at CDC headquarters, motivated by vaccine conspiracy theories, further deterring experts from public service (15:19).

• Who Fills the Void?

  • With top experts leaving, the government becomes less attractive to serious professionals.

    "If you are a scientist with any credibility, like, why the hell would you go into the CDC at this point?" – Sam Stein (17:12)

  • Satirical description of RFK Jr. (Bobby) diagnosing children in airports with "mitochondrial challenges," mocking pseudoscience now shaping public health (17:38–21:34).

• Broader Purges Across the Government:

  • Key firings in a single week: Deputy Treasury Secretary, CDC Director, Defense Intelligence Agency director, Fed Board governor, and others.
  • Intelligence staff losing clearance, FEMA personnel warning of catastrophic understaffing.

    "The failing government's going to fail on a profound level on multiple fronts." – Sam Stein (23:01)

3. Foreign Policy: Ukraine, Russia, and the Administration's Weakness

[23:39–28:24]

• Escalation in Ukraine:

  • Russian missile/drone attacks kill at least 18 in Kyiv, including four children—seen as a devastating indictment of U.S. strategy (24:35–26:36).

    "Putin is just basically saying fuck you. Haha. He's laughing in his face." – Tim Miller (25:43)

• Negotiations and the "Nobel Peace Prize" Farce:

  • Trump’s approach to Russia characterized as inconsistent and obsequious, with his negotiators seeking accolades rather than results.
  • Sarcastic discussion of Trump deserving the Nobel Peace Prize as children die in Kyiv (26:45–28:24).

4. Democratic Party Strategy: Israel, China, and "Fight Songs"

[28:24–36:45]

• Israel/Gaza Policy Shift:

  • Reflection on interview with Jake Sullivan (Biden’s National Security Adviser): Notable shift toward conditioning military aid to Israel if its government doesn’t change course—a stance that would have been "unthinkable" just a few years prior (29:34–32:50).

    "For Jake Sullivan ... to say, yeah, we're at a place where you can condition weaponry to Israel ... that would have been unthinkable two or three years ago." – Sam Stein (32:12)

• China and Democratic Messaging:

  • Need for Democrats to go on offense over Trump’s failures with China, both on economic and security grounds (33:10–34:29).

• Democratic Party Tone:

  • Irony and mockery over the DNC’s new, limp "fight song"; calls for the party to focus on essentials: voter registration, fundraising, and attacking Trump, not "making songs" (35:42–36:45).

5. The Federal Reserve "Purge" and Risks to U.S. Economic Stability

Guest Segment: Talmon Smith

[37:24–59:40]

• Why the Fed Board of Governors Matters:

  • The Board stands at the heart of the FOMC, setting interest rates, regulating the money supply, and aiming for both "stable prices" and "full employment."
  • Appointed for 14-year terms to guard against political interference. The attempted firing of Lisa Cook represents unprecedented encroachment (38:33–40:48).

• Mechanics of the "Purge":

  • Trump’s administration, via the FHFA, is using spurious mortgage allegations to try to remove Cook.
  • Discussion of the risks if Trump replaces Cook (and perhaps others) with loyalists:

    "It is very hard to believe that if Trump said jump, [Fed loyalist Stephen Myron] at this point wouldn't say how high." – Talmon Smith (43:16)

• Consequences if Independence Erodes:

  • If the Fed is seen as compromised and no longer independent:
    • The U.S. dollar could depreciate.
    • Treasury bonds could sell off, raising borrowing costs for government and consumers (mortgages, auto loans, credit cards).
    • U.S. "hard power" predicated on dollar dominance would be at risk.

    "If markets think that Trump has put in a hack ... you could see a drop in the dollar that isn't just an overnight flinch based out of fear, but based on an active decrease in central bank independence." – Talmon Smith (50:55)

  • Political irony: Attempts to lower rates and help the economy could backfire, worsening conditions for Trump’s own supporters by causing inflation or crimping credit access (53:57–55:20).

• Broader Economic State:

  • Current U.S. economy described as "meh": jobs market slowing, resilient stock market, but signs of malaise. Many challenges (inequality, AI, tariffs) would have been present regardless (55:20–59:40).
  • Wealth transfers under Trump 2.0: Policies amounting to tax cuts for the rich and tariffs that harm working- and middle-class Americans.

6. Katrina Anniversary: Inequality, Memory, and the Value of Communities

[59:42–67:27]

• Talmon Smith reflects on experiencing Hurricane Katrina at age 11, contrasting his family’s privilege with the dire fate of less fortunate peers (60:49–62:40).
• Critique of articles questioning the wisdom of saving "sinking cities" like New Orleans, defending the cultural and human value of vulnerable places.

  "Culture matters and people matter and you can't value them purely [by] their ability to consume or ... be an inventor." – Talmon Smith (65:16)

• Optimism for investing in resilience and a "Green New Deal"-like approach to coastal cities, echoing JFK’s call to tackle big challenges (66:00–67:27).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Gun Violence:

  "There is one underlying feature through all of this: Easy access to guns." – Sam Stein, 05:42
  "You want to fortify schools? Cool ... if it doesn't take into account easy access to firearms by deranged people, then it's pointless." – Tim Miller, 05:55

• On Political Blame Games:

  "We have to re-deprogram ourselves ... it starts by acknowledging [our instinct to blame the other side]." – Tim Miller, 04:02

• On Public Health Leadership:

  "We're at a place where our trusted public health officials ... believe our leadership is actively hurting the population." – Sam Stein, 15:19

• On Institutional Rot:

  "The failing government's going to fail on a profound level on multiple fronts." – Sam Stein, 23:01

• On Theoretical Fed Catastrophe:

  "If markets think that Trump has put in a hack ... you could see a drop in the dollar that isn't just an overnight flinch based out of fear, but based on an active decrease in central bank independence." – Talmon Smith, 50:55

• On Policy Irony:

  "He could do all of this to get interest rates down and it does actually nothing meaningfully for people that have mortgages ... because of the reaction of the bond market." – Tim Miller, 54:28

• On New Orleans and Value of Place:

  "Culture matters and people matter and you can't value them purely [by] their ability to consume or ... be an inventor." – Talmon Smith, 65:16

Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Segment | |-------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:58–11:44 | Minneapolis school shooting, Groundhog Day tragedy, cultural response | | 13:27–23:39 | CDC “purge,” public health leadership, broader federal brain drain | | 23:39–28:24 | Russia/Ukraine escalation, US foreign policy shortcomings | | 28:24–36:45 | Dem shifts on Israel, Jake Sullivan interview, China, DNC “fight song” | | 37:24–59:40 | Talmon Smith on the Fed, Lisa Cook, economic and political consequences | | 59:42–67:27 | Katrina’s anniversary, inequality, why communities matter |

Tone & Style

The conversation alternates between wry humor, exasperation, and alarm. The hosts speak candidly, with gallows humor (“inverse Hannity”), personal reflections, and an unapologetic critique of both political parties—true to The Bulwark’s reputation for irreverent, reality-based analysis.

Quick Takeaways

• America’s adaptation to mass shootings is a defining cultural tragedy: “Groundhog Day.”
• The exodus of experts from federal agencies, spurred by politicization and intimidation, poses grave risks to public health and economic stability.
• Trump-era moves to politicize the Fed and other agencies represent existential threats to the US’s economic and global power.
• Democrats are finally shifting toward more overt criticism of Israeli government policy and are urged to seize the China debate.
• Katrina’s legacy highlights the persistent fault lines of inequality—and the necessity of valuing communities beyond their economic output.

End of summary.