Sam Stein: Can Trump Avoid Humiliation in Iran?

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast | April 22, 2026

Episode Theme:
Can Trump Avoid Humiliation in Iran?
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Sam Stein, Managing Editor at The Bulwark

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Overview

In this episode, Tim Miller is joined by Sam Stein to discuss the latest crisis in Iran under President Trump. They analyze the ongoing closure of the Strait of Hormuz, the economic and political consequences for both Iran and the United States, and the administration’s struggle to find a viable off-ramp. The episode takes a critical look at Trump’s "Madman Theory," explores new developments in Virginia’s redistricting brawl, evaluates Cabinet member performance, and touches upon domestic issues like mass shootings and NBA playoffs. The conversation is lively, irreverent, and insightful, staying true to the Bulwark’s tone of candid, reality-based political analysis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Iran Standoff: Strategy, Stakes, and Ceasefire Spin

• [03:17-04:17] Tim summarizes the administration’s stance: Trump is holding the Strait of Hormuz closed ("we are going to keep the Strait … closed and let gas prices continue to rise … until Iran figures its shit out"), waiting for a unified proposal from Iran’s fractured leadership.
• [04:34-06:17] Sam clarifies that the so-called “ceasefire” is contested: “We’re in a place where Donald Trump is not pursuing more aggressive military action, but it’s still an act of conflict or war ... The Iranians … have boarded two vessels this morning ... they're not going to the talks in Islamabad so long as there is a blockade.”
• [07:33-08:24] Both agree Iran’s regime can likely endure greater economic pain than the US public: “The regime doesn’t particularly have a sterling record of caring for their citizens ... we have not felt the pinch to the degree that the Europeans have.”

2. The “Madman Theory” Hits Its Limits

• [09:57-12:09] Tim critiques the efficacy and potential unraveling of Trump’s unpredictable foreign policy: “You always have to be the craziest man. … Now he’s in a game of chicken with … the craziest sons of bitches in the world.”
• [12:09-12:23] Sam worries about escalation if Trump feels cornered: “The real nightmare scenario is where he’s just like, okay, I’ve tried everything else and I’m looking like a big old pussy and I have to do this and boom.”
• [12:20-12:24] Tim wryly: “That’s a real risk—because he is looking like a big old pussy.”

3. The Lack of a Coherent Iran Objective

• [12:44-13:32] New polling discussed: The US public is unclear on the Iran mission, with multiple (often contradictory) rationales cited. Tim: “Nobody knows what we’re doing. And it does compound the political problem where it’s like, hey, I’m paying more at the gas tank and I truly don’t know why.”
• [14:05-14:50] Sam and Tim agree: Even a “victory” at this stage would mirror the JCPOA deal that Trump originally dismantled—circling back to “a humiliation.”

4. Trump’s Chronic Lack of Off-Ramps

• [16:13-16:44] Both highlight a recurring pattern: Trump “starts things and has no idea what to do after the first day. And it happens time and again.”

5. Absurd Diplomacy: Human Rights, Hot Women, and Internet Memes

• [16:44-18:18] Tim and Sam mock Trump’s selective human rights advocacy: “He does care about human rights for hot people. … He posted a bleat with a picture of eight women ... ‘I would greatly appreciate the release of these women.’”
• [18:00-18:26] Joking about using AI to create "MAGA women in Iran" as a negotiation ploy.

6. Virginia Redistricting: Retaliation and Hardball Politics

• [20:57-25:19] Recap and discussion of the Democrats’ aggressive redistricting response in Virginia: “The map looks ridiculous … it’s like you’re in the same district if you’re in the Shenandoah Valley and if you’re like right across the Potomac in Rosslyn.”
• [21:27-23:52] Sam: “We cannot have a function in government in which basically the lawmakers are drawing their voters. And yet what is the alternative here?”
• [24:47-25:19] Tim: “The Democrats ... did what Democratic voters wanted their leadership to do, played hardball against Trump, push back, and won. And I do think that they should deserve credit for that.”

7. Republican Missteps and Trump’s Waning Political Clout

• [26:18-27:58] Sam and Tim criticize the GOP for underplaying their hand on redistricting and not spending to defend Virginia.
• [28:14-29:38] Sam notes: Conservative figures like Kyle Rittenhouse openly endorse anti-Trump Republicans, signaling Trump’s weakening grip—“the conservative grift class is not scared of them anymore.”

8. Cabinet Rankings: Who’s the Worst?

(Segment starts [52:17])

• Both hosts revisit their tradition of ranking Trump’s worst Cabinet members:
  • Consensus #1 Worst: Pete Hegseth, especially post-flu vaccine rollbacks and general mismanagement.
  • Sam’s List: Hegseth, RFK, Besant, Chris Wright, Rubio.
  • Tim’s List: Hegseth, Rubio, Todd Blanche, RFK, Brooke Rollins.
  • On Hegseth: “It’s not even close … pretty clearly Pete Hegseth is the worst. And it’s not really even a close second.” (Tim, [59:29])
  • Fun banter: They joke about strip club scandals and the deep bench of Cabinet dysfunction.

9. Cabinet Gossip & Political Potpourri

• [65:09-66:27] Humorous sidebar about HBO’s "Down to Fuck St. Louis", midlife loneliness, and TV recommendations.
• [66:27-69:22] NBA playoffs talk, team injuries, and the Thunder/Celtics’ playoff outlook.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Iran Ceasefire
  • Tim Miller: "We’re going to keep the Strait of Hormuz closed and let gas prices continue to rise for Americans until Iran figures its shit out." ([03:06])
  • Sam Stein: “We’re in a place where Donald Trump is not pursuing more aggressive military action, but it’s still an act of conflict or war or whatever you want to call it with the Iranians.” ([04:34])
• On the “Madman Theory”
  • Tim Miller: “One of the limits of Madman theory is that you always have to be the craziest man. … And right now he’s in a game of chicken with … the craziest sons of bitches in the world.” ([10:01])
  • Sam Stein: “It is a weird situation where it’s like, who is the biggest nihilist? And we have to live with that.” ([11:20])
• On Lack of Planning
  • Tim Miller: “Trump starts shit without ever knowing what the off ramp is going to be. … He always starts something and he has no idea how to figure it out and finish it off.” ([08:24])
• On Political Consequences
  • Sam Stein: “Trump may be totally, you know, a sadist about this stuff, but he’s at 33% ... he clearly is tired of this shit and wants to figure out a way out of it, obviously.” ([08:44])
• On Selective Human Rights Advocacy
  • Tim Miller: “He does care about human rights for hot people. ... You can get human rights relief if the victims are hot women.” ([16:44])
  • Sam Stein: “The Iranians can use AI and start creating these like MAGA women in Iran saying 'We love you, Trump. Just, you know, open the strait but also agree to sanctions relief.'” ([18:00])
• On Virginia Redistricting
  • Tim Miller: “The map looks ridiculous. It’s a ridiculous map.” ([21:17])
  • Sam Stein: “This is just ... It cannot be this way. … And yet what is the alternative here?” ([21:27])
• On the GOP’s Defensive Errors
  • Sam Stein: “Trump’s super PAC is sitting on like 300 and some odd million. They spent nothing, unbelievable, zero on the Virginia redistricting fight. And what are they waiting for what’s the money for? Exactly. That was. That’s insane to me.” ([26:18])
• On Cabinet Dysfunction
  • Sam Stein: “If you looked at his resume ... but just saw all this, the stuff on the … he does play the part right. And yet he’s contorted his views of fiscal policy just to get the job.” ([32:44], on Kevin Warsh)
  • On Hegseth: “Even more bad now is that he’s taken some of the RFK and just adopting it as his own. … Let’s just get everyone really sick. That’s smart.” ([59:04])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:17: Iran: Fractured regime, fake ceasefire, and vessel boardings
• 09:57: The “Madman Theory” and its dangers
• 12:44: U.S. public confusion about Iran mission; political implications
• 14:50: The only endgame is a JCPOA-style humiliation for Trump
• 16:44: Trump’s selective human rights “bleats”
• 20:57: Virginia redistricting; Democratic retaliation and GOP missteps
• 28:14: Trump’s weakening hold on the GOP; Massie’s survival
• 32:07: Kevin Warsh’s Fed nomination hearing and dodging the election question
• 46:05: Mass shooting in Shreveport and media/political indifference
• 52:17: "Worst Cabinet Members" power rankings
• 65:09: Potpourri: TV, NBA, and life updates

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Closing Thoughts

This episode offers a sharp, often biting, and always candid look at the intersection of foreign and domestic crises in the Trump era, defined by impulsive moves, refusal to plan for aftermaths, and a penchant for culture war distractions. Tim and Sam’s rapport brings a sense of reality (and humor) to politics, critiquing not just policies but the personalities and pathologies driving the headlines.

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For those who missed it, this episode is essential listening for Bulwark fans and political junkies hungry for tough love assessments and no-BS analysis.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

This week on a special episode of WebMD's Health Discovered podcast, we're taking a closer look at a common form of lung cancer that accounts for 85% of all cases.

[Sam Stein]

When I first heard the words you have lung cancer, I was in shock.

[Tim Miller]

It's a diagnosis that changes everything. So what does it really mean to advocate for yourself when you're living with non small cell lung cancer? Listen to Health discovered on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. A few housekeeping items. We have the live shows coming up in in San Diego and Los Angeles. Downtown San Diego, downtown LA. May 20, May 21. Make a little weekend out of it. If you're not from Southern California, if you live on the west side in Venice or Santa Monica, it's going to be a long drive either way, so you can pick your poison. Tickets are available for both. Go to the bulwark.com events. I do hope to see you in California. My guest today will be in California with us. Also, for the YouTube people we subscribe, we're getting mogged by some of these terrible conservative influencers. I'm getting to 2 million subscribers, so we need a subscriber boost. So if you're on YouTube, subscribe right now. Tell your friends. All right, today's guest. This is unusual for me. I don't usually do this. Okay. I don't usually get bullied into having a guest on the show. I usually get to pick. But in this case, our guest today was upset because he had been in pole position like the most downloaded episode ever was right before I went on vacation last summer. Our guest today was the special guest for that episode. I think that the reason I had the most downloads was mostly because most of you missed me while I was on vacation. You kept kind of downloading it to see if I was coming back, but it was a point of pride for him and as of a couple days ago, that has been passed. Now, the episode of Jane Coaston where we talked about Melania not being able to speak English and Catholic school has passed it. I don't know why you guys loved that one so much, but there it is. We all love Jane. And so he's back. He wants first. He wants to be first again. He wants pole position as the managing editor of the Bulwark. Sam Stein, how you doing?

[Sam Stein]

Just to, just to clear things up for to start out here, I did not beg to come on. You asked me to come on.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. You begged. You beg like a dog. Like a dog. You beg like a dog.

[Sam Stein]

Like a dog. No, but I mean, I'm deeply offended that I've been passed by Jane, so it would be nice to reclaim my title. But I did not ask to come on at all.

[Tim Miller]

That's not the report that I got. We'll have to go to the transcript on that and hash that out another time. We'll start with some Iran news. Much to get to our Cabinet rankings will be coming at the end. I know you guys are clamoring for that. The current position, as best I can tell from the President of the United States, is that we are going to keep the Strait of Hormuz closed and let gas prices continue to rise for Americans until Iran figures its shit out. That's basically how I'd sum it up. His bleed was this based on the fact that Iran is seriously fractured? Not unexpectedly so. And upon request of Field Marshal Munir and Prime Minister Sharif of Pakistan. Why is Pakistan telling us what to do? We have been asked to hold our attack on the country of Iran until such time as their leaders and representatives can come up with a unified proposal directed our military to continue the blockade and remain ready and able will therefore extend the ceasefire until such time as their proposal is submitted and discussions are concluded one way or the other. So the ceasefire ends. We've unilaterally decided to keep it. The Strait is still closed, oil prices are up again this morning, and our current position is, you know, Iran's got to figure out their shit. We get it, we get it. They got a potential coup happening there. I don't know. The Ayatollah might be in a coma. We don't know. We're going to give them a little extra time, little bonus time.

[Sam Stein]

If you read that truth. It did not sound like Donald Trump to me. There wasn't like a lot of all

[Tim Miller]

caps or you think it was an auto pen situation.

[Sam Stein]

Someone authored it. It wasn't Donald Trump. Maybe he put a few flourishes in there.

[Tim Miller]

Do you think, BB?

[Sam Stein]

I don't think maybe BB's right. The truth these days, I don't know. But also I think this one thing that's kind of getting lost is we're not actually in a ceasefire. I mean, we're in a ceasefire that Trump claims we're in a ceasefire, but the Iranians aren' saying this is ceasefire. They think the blockade is an act of provocation or war. And so they're not treating this as a ceasefire and they apparently have boarded two vessels this morning in the straight. That's the stuff that we're seeing this morning while we're recording. They're not going to the talks in Islamabad so long as there is a blockade. So we're not actually in a ceasefire. We keep calling it a ceasefire. We're in a place where Donald Trump is not pursuing more aggressive military action, but it's still an act of conflict or war or whatever you want to call it with the Iranians. And that's the problem, is that if you can't get to the point where you can actually talk about a diplomatic offering, you obviously don't have a diplomatic offer.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And as you mentioned, this is a quote from an advisory Iranian speaker. The extension of the ceasefire by Trump has no meaning.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, isn't that right? Am I wrong here?

[Tim Miller]

No, no, that's right. It seems right. There's another statement about how the loser doesn't get to set the terms just a little bit during a provocation. And then they've got another Lego video out in the Lego videos. Like whoever the.

[Sam Stein]

Got to try a few different memes here.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. Pulitzer is going to go to whoever figures out who is doing the Lego video.

[Sam Stein]

The Lego videos. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Is there a 23 year old intern in, in Tehran doing some guy in Malaysia. Probably doing some guy in Malaysia who's like DMing them to, you know, the, the foreign minister. I don't know. Clearly Iran isn't particularly trying to escalate at this point.

[Sam Stein]

Are you sure? Well, they did board the vessels.

[Tim Miller]

They did board the vessels, but I just mean like they're not droning natural gas facilities in UAE or Qatar or the other types of things that they've said they're going to do. They said that they're planning other types of disruptive attacks. The Trump position here, I guess, and it's not, I guess it's what he stated is that Iran is losing $500 million a day because of the blockade and so eventually they're going to cry uncle. There's some conversation about how Kharg island, if you can't get the oil out of there, and there'll be some kind of logistical issues that would really cripple Iran's ability to transport oil outside of the country. But like the Daily Mail is reporting this morning that there have been a couple Iranian ghost ships that have bypassed the blockade. We'll see. These things are all developing kind of as we're talking, but it seems like a bad bet to me that it's going to be the Iranians that are going to be the ones that cry uncle over economic concerns. I don't think the Iranian leadership cares that much about. I mean, they care about their long term economic interests and getting a good deal negotiation. But I think that if there are shortages in Iran for a little while and their people were suffering anyway, I think that there's much more room for pain than there is in decadent America.

[Sam Stein]

Neither outcome is great, but I tend to agree with you. The regime doesn't particularly have a sterling record of caring for their citizens. So I have to imagine they're okay with more economic anxiety in the short term, at least. It's unclear to me though also, you know, I'm no expert on this, but to the degree that the Russians and the Chinese are helping them out, I would be curious about that. Weren't we allowing the Russians to help them out at one point in time? Is that still happening? I will say this like, we in America have not felt the pinch to the degree that the Europeans have and other countries have because of these fuel prices. I saw a story this morning about, you know, some German airliner canceling like a bunch of flights because the fuel costs for jet fuel is just out of control. We haven't really had that here. And yet at the same time, gas is pretty damn expensive. I had to fill up on the way in today. It was crazy.

[Tim Miller]

Were you filling up at that one gas station that the morning always uses because it has the highest gas prices in the country? And for some reason there was a

[Sam Stein]

famous gas station at the right outside The Watergate in D.C. forever had the highest prices, but they changed ownership and now there's a famous one and near Union Station that always has high prices. I, I try, I tend to try to avoid those two locations for those reasons, but even this morning I, I was like, just kind of filling up my tank and I was checking my phone and, you know, I was like, committed to keeping it under $50. I don't know why. And then I look over at 70, I hadn't even filled up. I was just, you know, it's like, that's gonna add up for a lot of people. And then you have rising food costs, which we were talking about in Slack this morning. So it is going to hurt. And it's starting to hurt really badly. And I, you know, Trump may be totally, you know, a sadist about this stuff, but he's at 33%. What was that AP poll like? He just lost redistricting in Virginia we're going to talk about that. The House is looking completely gone. I think he clearly is tired of this shit and wants to figure out a way out of it, obviously. So it's not that he's not feeling the acute political and economic pain here, it's just that he's in a game of chicken. And there's a larger thing here, theme through all these stories that I'm going to get to later, but it boils down to this. Donald Trump starts shit without ever knowing what the off ramp is going to be. It's the same with Virginia and redistricting. It's the same with Kevin Warsh and the Fed nomination. He always starts something and he has no idea how to figure it out and finish it off. And this is just what's happening in Iran.

[Tim Miller]

And he lives day by day. He's a survivor. Here's the thing. Edgar wrote a good morning shots about this couple, couple days ago or weeks ago, who knows? Time is flat circle about, like, the end of Madman Theory. And I mocked Madman Theory because we can see the limits of it and we can see how stupid it is here. But, like, you have to acknowledge that there were times where it was effective, where it was like, Trump was so crazy that other country leaders just, like, gave him shit that they wouldn't have given to Joe Biden just because it was like, who knows? Like, this dude is too big of a pain in the ass. And it's like, whatever, we'll cut some deal with him that we wouldn't have cut otherwise if we just had two bureaucrats negotiating like that. It did work, couple of times. But one of the limits of Madman theory is that you always have to be the craziest man. And right now he's in a game of chicken with we don't even know who. Sometimes they have an internal negotiation happening. And among the people on the other side of the game of chicken are the craziest sons of bitches in the world. I mean, and so it's like, okay, now what? And you can see what happens, which is, now what? Which is like he says, oh, I'm going to end their civilization, or, oh, I'm not going to extend the ceasefire. Oh, we're going to go back at their power plants. And then when push comes to shove, it's like, he doesn't want to do it. This doesn't mean that he might not ever do it because he got himself into this fucking game of chicken with the craziest sons of bitches in the world. But, like, but you can tell he's trying to veer off. He's the one with the itchy turn hand.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. It is a weird situation where it's like, who is the biggest nihilist? And we have to live with that. I was talking with Sarah about this over the weekend too, because I grapple and struggle with how to handle these threats that he makes about ending civilization and bombing power plants and bridges and stuff like that. Because obviously he ducks out of them time and time again. And now I think this is like the fifth time he's done it or something like that. And yet I don't want to not take that seriously, if that makes sense to you.

[Tim Miller]

No, you have to take it seriously.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, yeah, but like.

[Tim Miller]

And he gets backed into a corner. The other thing about Trump is that he is susceptible to whatever the last person told him. You know, I don't know who around him wants to end Iranian civilization besides Hegseth Lindsey. Yeah, sure. But yeah, no, I think it's worth taking it seriously for that reason.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, you have to take it seriously. And then I guess the real nightmare scenario is where he's just like, okay, I've tried everything else and I'm looking like a big old pussy and I have to do this and boom.

[Tim Miller]

And that's a real risk because he is looking like a big old pussy.

[Sam Stein]

We can say that now.

[Tim Miller]

We can. And honestly, congrats to the hedge fund guy who after the election, 2024, said to the FT or whatever that he's excited up being able to say pussy again. Because you know what's been a great run for him?

[Sam Stein]

I mean, it was worth it. It was worth it.

[Tim Miller]

Hopefully he was long oil. Hopefully he was long oil and wanted to say the P word.

[Sam Stein]

Look, gas is 430, but at least we can say pussy.

[Tim Miller]

There's a couple other just things that are on real quick. There's a Puck had a poll out last night which I think speaks to the political problems that you were getting to, which is they just asked open ended, like, why are we doing this? What exactly is it that we're doing here in Iran? And the top answer was to prevent Iran for getting nuclear weapons. But that was only 22%. 20% said it was for taking their oil. 13% said it was a show of power. 9% said regime change. 6% said distraction from Epstein. 6% terrorism prevention, 5% helping Israel. Nobody knows what we're doing. And it does compound the political problem where it's like, hey, I'm paying more at the Gas tank. And I truly don't know why.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, does Trump even know why at this point? Trump's been all over the map. No.

[Tim Miller]

What is the objective if you went to Islamabad right now? Let's say they were going to Islamabad. They're not. We don't have ongoing negotiations. But what would be the objective? It kind of seems like the objective right now is just reopening the strait, which it was already open before this all started.

[Sam Stein]

Right. Well then here is the real conundrum, right? It's like any off ramp, any resolution to this is itself going to end with embarrassment for Trump. What's the best realistic deal he could cut right now, in your estimation?

[Tim Miller]

I think that they help him save face by saying that they can take some of the enriched uranium out of the country, not all. They open the strait, but then they get sanctions relief, some cap on their

[Sam Stein]

nuclear ambitions, some IEA checks commit to

[Tim Miller]

not funding proxies that they lie about. Yeah, that seems like the best deal.

[Sam Stein]

Great, Cool. First of all, Iran won't agree to taking all of the nuclear material out of the country. They will never do it. That's a red line. But even in that scenario, the rosiest scenarios, they reopen the strait. It was already opened prior to the war, so congrats. And everything else you described is the jcpoa, right? And it's like Trump blew it up and we spent years trying to figure out what the hell to do. And then we end up back in the place where Trump started. It's a humiliation.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe he gets a cut off the straight US gets a cut off the strip. The difference between the JCPOA we started, we get a, we get a 10% vig on the oil now, right?

[Sam Stein]

And it'll be in some sort of Trump family crypto and it's all gonna be great. And it'll fund the ballroom and what a deal. And fine, like I'm at the place now. Or like let him crow about some stupid deal. It's just the JCPOA and he can pocket a few mil here and there, but like it is objectively going to be some version of that deal that he killed and it's a humiliation. And I think he sort of knows a little bit that it's gonna be bullshit difficult to sell any of this stuff. Because if you. Now that were like three or four deals ago, but the first deal was that 10 point principle plan that they apparently had struck. And if you looked at the sort of specifics of it, it was actually quite worse than the jcpo it was much more sanctions relief. It was basically, you know, the type of, you know, allowing Iran to essentially control the straight and charge. And they backtracked instantaneously when the commentary turned negative on that. And so they're not ready. They're not ready to swallow their pride.

[Tim Miller]

This is what we said from the start. I said, I don't know, hate to give the guy advice. Don't want to give him advice. But after the first weekend, Monday, after the first weekend, he should have said, that's a huge victory. We've obliterated them. That's not recoverable. Good luck to you and all your endeavors, people of Iran. Like, that was his way out of this, and he didn't do it this time.

[Sam Stein]

I totally agree with that. And it would have fit the pattern of what he had done before with Midnight Hammer and Venezuela and all that stuff. I think the issue was the Iranians responded by basically bombing the entire region. And at that point, at that point point, you're sort of stuck because you've basically drawn in your regional allies and the gas prices are skyrocketing and you got to figure out what the hell to do with the strait. Which gets me back to my original conceit. He starts things and has no idea what to do after the first day. And it happens time and again.

[Tim Miller]

I had one last important Iran thing for you to Virginia. We like to call it straight here at the Bulwark, Sam. That's why we brought you in. We want to do real journalism. And I do think, to be fair to Trump, he does care about human rights for hot people. Oh, yeah. He cares about human rights for hot women. I don't know if you saw this bleat. He posted a bleat with a picture of eight women. They were all pretty good looking. I will say, you know, I just, as a gay man, this is an objective thing. I'm not objectifying them. I'm just saying they look pretty. They're younger women. They look pretty. And he posted this to the Iranian leaders who will soon be in negotiations with my representatives. Fingers crossed. I would greatly appreciate the release of these women. I am sure that they'll respect the fact that you did, so please do them no harm. Would be a great start to our negotiations. I'm pulling up.

[Sam Stein]

I just pulled up the bleed. I hadn't seen him before.

[Tim Miller]

It's unreal.

[Sam Stein]

Come on.

[Tim Miller]

And it is literally like this same thing happened to Zo Run. Do you remember this? It was the Columbia student, Zoron goes in there and There's a Columbia student and she was pretty and like within two seconds she was out of ICE detention.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, human rights, that's where we're at.

[Tim Miller]

We've got an old, we just have a creepy all guard in the White House and you can get human rights relief if the victims are hot women.

[Sam Stein]

Well this, this actually brings up a possible end route for this conflict here, which is the Iranians can use AI and start creating these like MAGA women in MAGA women in Iran saying we love you Trump. Just, you know, open the strait but also agree to sanctions relief and love you Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. MAGA women, Iranian maga, MAGA women. They should actually be the point people on the negotiation.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. You know, the Lego shit is enough. Stop doing the Lego. We need to switch it up a little bit.

[Tim Miller]

Harry, I just changed out my razor yesterday. Look at, look at this. Look at how clean I'm looking. I'm still very boyish. I only have to shave like once every three days, which is nice. But when you do shave, you want something that's going to make you feel nice afterwards when you throw in the moisturizer. And I'm happy to endorse our new friends at Harry's. With Harry's plus you get a barbershop quality shave. The blades are designed to cut hair cleanly at the root, without tugging, glide smoothly and avoid clogging. Maybe the best part about Harry's is how affordable it is. And if you don't love your shave, Harry's will make it right. No questions asked. Risk free trial means there's zero downside to giving it a shot. Right now our listeners can get the Harry's plus trial set for only 10 bucks at Harrys.com the Bulwark for a limited time, our listeners, you get the Harry's plus trial set for only 10 [e-mail] TheBullwerk this set includes the all new Harry's plus razor, one refined five blade cartridge, a two ounce foaming shave gel, and a travel cover to protect your blades on the go. Just head to Harrys.com Theborg to claim this offer and after you purchase they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you big win in Virginia for the referendum to redistrict the state. There were a lot of concerns about this and I had Subramonium on the podcast a couple weeks ago and they were basically saying the internal polling was showing it as a coin flip. Virginia's not California. Virginia is a blue State light blue. But they elected Glen Youngkin not too long ago. There's good government types in Virginia, a lot of military types in Virginia, and the gerrymander that they put forth. I just want to steal this from a guy that I follow on election Twitter named James. He called it the 101 map looks absolutely insane, and it's wildly unfair. And the public had full knowledge of it. And that's like, right. That map looks ridiculous. It's a ridiculous map. And it's like you're in the same district if you're in the Shenandoah Valley and if you're like right across the Potomac in Rosslyn. I mean, it's an absurd map. And they pushed it through as an fu to Trump for trying to play hardball and trying to jerry rig, to be honest, the midterm elections and they get a win on this, on this referendum. The people of Virginia, 51 to 48, three point victory. I was supportive of this. I think that this is the way you got to do it. You got to punch these guys back in the nose, even if it's a little messy. But I was wondering what your takeaway was on it.

[Sam Stein]

Just to underscore the map and how absurd it is. It's like you take the Northern Virginia Arlington district and then you just have like bacon strips all the way across. It is really a ridiculous gerrymander. I mean, in the most comical sense. And in a normal universe, which we are not in, you'd find it abhorrent.

[Tim Miller]

There's like, in District 11, there's like a tiny little strait of Hormuz that goes through Alexandria, goes all the way down to Southwest Virginia. It's unbelievable.

[Sam Stein]

It's unreal. I don't feel bad per se about it because I understand why they did it. But, like, you watch this happen and you're just like, this is just. It cannot be this way. We cannot have a function in government in which basically the lawmakers are drawing their voters. And yet what is the alternative here? Is it for Democrats to basically be morally righteous about everything and then get their clock clean? I've seen a lot of complaints on the right about this. And they're like, well, you know, this is just abhorrent. How could they do this? They started this stuff. And like, no, that is not true. You have to look at what happened in this cycle mid decade redistricting. It was started by Texas at the behest of Trump. And the only obvious outcome of this, again, was that Democrats were going to retaliate. And this is what happens? People who are complaining about this on the Republican side are full of it. They're full of shit. Honestly. This is what you brought on yourselves.

[Tim Miller]

The Democrats retaliation was stronger than I even expected, Tim.

[Sam Stein]

It was stronger than a lot of them expect. I talked to a lot of Democrats about this. Heading into this, they did not anticipate Virginia was going to do something like this. And if Virginia. I mean, it was a surprise when it first got floated for a lot of Democrats. And then the original idea was they were going to go for a nine two.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Or eight. Three even or like eight two in a swing, you know, and it's.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

I remember I was talking to a Virginia Democrat, prominent one, just being like, I'm the podcaster prick. I can do this and be like, push it for 10 1. I was like. I was like, fuck these people. I was like, I've been on election Twitter. And they were like, yeah. I was like, you know, I was talking to. I was like, I want to do it, but you got to get everybody on board. You got to get the state Senate. Abigail just got elected.

[Sam Stein]

And so my understanding is Kaine and Warner were not supportive of this at all.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no. There are a couple of House Democrats, Virginia House Democrats, and then Louise Lucas, which Lauren did that great profile in her state senator. This was a revenge thing for her.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

In addition to Trump, they redistricted her out of a. Out of a congressional seat she wanted to run in like six years ago or something like that. And they're mean to her about it. And she was just basically like, f, you guys. All right, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. The way which they went for the jugular I think is important. And like, my two big picture takeaways on this is it's number one, good on Spamberger for doing it. And then because she just gets in, she's not Gavin Newsom. She's not running to lead the resistance.

[Sam Stein]

She spent a lot. And she spent a lot of capital on this. I mean, it's going to spend a lot of capital. It will hurt her ability to go. It will.

[Tim Miller]

Yep. But the moment called for it. And that ties to my broader point, which is there's very few people in the ecosystem out there who are incentivized to say, you know what, the establishment Democrats really played hardball and did a great job and won. And the Republicans want to paint Democrats to look like wusses. And Democrats help them with that a lot. And I think a lot of the left Wing ecosystem wants to paint the establishment Democrats to look like wusses so that they can overthrow them and have more progressive, aggressive people in charge. And in some cases they have legitimate critiques on that. And like, you know, and the mainstream media is never going to be out there doing like woohoo. Abigail Spamberger for good reason. And so like there's not a lot of incentive for anybody to do it. And it's just worth saying that like the Democrats, you know, Hakeem Jeffries, whether it was on both shutdowns and on this redistricting battle, like did what Democratic voters wanted their leadership to do, like played hardball against Trump, push back Adam and won. And I do think that they should deserve credit for that. They're a little too late, I think for a lot of our tastes to respond aggressively to Trump. But come towards the end of 2025 and now into 2026, we've seen the Democrats show a lot of spine and succeed and playing political hardball back against Trump. And it should be noted.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I mean there's just not many opportunities to do it. But when they've presented themselves, you're right, the shutdown fights this. I know Jeffries has been trying to get even more. He went into Maryland, wasn't able to do that but they've basically been clear eyed about it and you know, it is a little bit easier to operate from the minority position. Right. Like you don't have anything to lose but you know, you could have, he could have done exactly what the warners and the canes of the wood want and said, you know what, let's just do it three and and we'll be happy.

[Tim Miller]

And Jeffries takes a lot of shit for the various times in which he has not gone to the mat and done with a lot of the base wanted and he had internals like you said it was. The senators from Virginia weren't so excited about it. A lot of the Congressional Black Caucus was excited about it because these sort of things dilute the percentage of black vote in some of these districts. So in theory that could mean fewer black representatives in the future. I don't really think that's a real risk. I think they were being a little over cautious. But still he had to navigate all that. So kudos to.

[Sam Stein]

Isn't the more interesting story on the Republican side here like Trump opened up this can of worms. Trump's super PAC is sitting on like 300 and some odd million. They spent nothing, unbelievable zero on the Virginia redistricting fight. And what are they waiting for what's the money for? Exactly. That was. That's insane to me.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, the Trump family, Devin Nunes, the Senate, I guess I don't, I'm not sure. And I know that they're going to start spending on Senate ads early, that you've seen those reporting. But I agree with. And I think the other thing that's insane is just the way in which they failed to press their advantage, just kind of taking back the clock, because you kind of forget this stuff, going news cycle to news cycle. But there was at least one of these podcasts where I sat here, where the Texas thing looked like it was going to happen. Missouri, Indiana, Florida were talking about getting on board. There was concern that the Voting Rights act would drop. I remember I had a conversation with Mark Elias about this, and it was like there was a inflection point before the Gavin thing literally looked for certain, where it was like, actually they might be able to gerrymander their way into almost a foolproof majority. They had everything gone right for the Republicans, and had the Democrats dithered, they could have built themselves up like a 267 seat cushion. Who knows, maybe that in a wave, the Democrats still eke out the House barely, but they could have almost like gerrymandered their way to a full proof majority. And there was like a week a couple months ago where it looked like that was maybe the median outcome. And, and to go from that to now, the Democrats probably end up netting one or two seats out of this whole fight. Crazy.

[Sam Stein]

It is crazy. Again, Trump starts something, doesn't figure out how to finish it off. And I think the other big inflection point was when Indiana decided they weren't going to do it. And then Trump basically just like, flailed and said he's going to primary the hell out of these people, and nothing's really happened.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of primaries, the other thing I thought was interesting, showing Trump's weakening position in these sorts of things. So Massie is the other one, that there is a primary and they are spending some money against his primary opponent in Kentucky. That's coming up. But yesterday I just saw. You remember our old friend Kyle Rittenhouse?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Old friend Kyle Rittenhouse endorsed Thomas Massie yesterday. And this might seem like a silly thing. It's kind of like, okay, who cares? But they're just all these little data points that the conservative grift class is not scared of them anymore. You know, like 10 months ago. There's just no way that a conservative grifter would have endorsed Thomas Massie, you know, unless there are personal friends with Thomas Massie or libertarian or something. But, like, why, why risk Trump's ire, you know, when Massie is his number one foe right now? We'll see how that primary shakes out. And I think I've talked to folks around that race and, you know, I think they're legitimate concerns that Massey still goes down in a close race. But the fact that Massey is not only surviving, but getting endorsements and not backing down an inch and not doing the kind of campaign where he's like, I'm, I'm the real endorsed Trump candidate. You know, like some of the people who have, like, that's what Bill Cassidy's doing here in Louisiana. Like he voted to impeach Trump. And every time I turn on the fucking NBA playoffs, it's like, Bill Cassidy is the real MAGA Republican. Julia Letlow is a woke bulwark lib. And it's like, okay, that's not what Massey's doing. And I think that's pretty telling.

[Sam Stein]

Are we going to talk NBA playoffs,

[Tim Miller]

by the way, or no, sure, we can save. I got potpourri at the end later,

[Sam Stein]

I will say you're right about that. And it's only going to get worse after the midterms. I mean, yeah, he's a lame duck. That's just what happens with these people. And he has a lot of power still. I'm not going to undersell it. And he can, you know, get a social media horde sick on someone and he's got that money. And yet after the midterms, he's not up for reelection. No one knows where that money's going to be placed. And I think you're just going to see a lot of these people who would have been scared of Trump, just like Kyle Rittenhouse just be like, you know what? I don't really give a shit anymore.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, fuck it.

[Sam Stein]

We have a future Republican Party we have to debate over.

[Tim Miller]

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[Sam Stein]

What do you mean by that?

[Tim Miller]

The incentives of people who are in the administration and now how loyal will they be and will they go down with the ship with him? And so to that, I want to start with Kevin Warsh.

[Sam Stein]

All right.

[Tim Miller]

He had his confirmation hearings yesterday to be the new Fed chair. Kevin Warsh is the Nepo son in law of Ron Louder of Estee Lauder fame. He is the billionaire who is behind the seizing Greenland plot. He's also in a lithium deal with the United States government right now. Now Epstein friend, Louder and Epstein were friends. Wash was also invited to some Epstein parties. So that was the choice for the Fed chair. Somebody was like kind of serious on the economic stuff, but also has been a Trump hack and his performance yesterday. I've got one clip I want to play. But what was your, what was your big takeaway from Kevin Warsh's confirmation hearing?

[Sam Stein]

Having read Katherine Rampel's piece on it, I'm kind of struck by how hackish he is is if you looked at his resume, not sort of with great detail but just saw all this, the stuff on the, on the cw like he does play the part right. And yet he's contorted his views of fiscal policy just to get the job. I mean, he's basically been an inflation hawk his entire life, except for when Trump's the president and then he becomes someone who wants to cut rates. And, and there was one moment, obviously gotcha from the hearing. And I didn't think the senators did particularly great, but there was this one moment where Elizabeth Warren asks her traditional question and it's, you know, the thing that they do now at all these hearings where she's like, who won the election in 2020?

[Tim Miller]

We actually have the audio on that, Sam. Let's take a listen to Elizabeth Warren Grill and Kevin Warsh. So independence takes courage. Let's check out your independence and your courage. We'll start easy. Mr. Warsh, did Donald Trump lose the 2020 election? We try to keep politics, if I'm confirmed out of the federal. I'm just asking you a factual question. I need to know, I need to

[Sam Stein]

measure your independence and your courage.

[Tim Miller]

Senator, I believe that this body certified that election many years ago. That's not the question I'm asking.

[Sam Stein]

I'm asking, did Donald Trump lose in 2020?

[Tim Miller]

And I'm suggesting you in 2020. The Fed needs to that you're huge inflation problem.

[Sam Stein]

So I watch this and I'm like, at first I was like, why is she asking? This is like, you should be focusing on fiscal policy and the independence of the Fed and the investigations into Lisa Cook and Jay Powell, obviously. And then it got, I thought about the reason she said it, which is obviously you have to be able to like stand up to the guy. That's pretty much the biggest part of this job. Job is can you be independent from the present because they're going to have tons of pressure put on you.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[Sam Stein]

And if he can't just basically answer that question, then he failed the test. He did. And so I thought in this case it was a very useful use of that gimmicky question because it shows that he just is going to do what he can do and say what he has to say to stay on the job, which is concerning.

[Tim Miller]

He wouldn't condemn the Cook and Pal investigations too.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

And this is one of those things where, you know, my point of view is just if you ask who won the 2020 election, you just say Joe Biden and move on. Like the degree which he's like, I would say whatever. Just like, shut up. Stop being a douche.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Do you think Trump would act? I mean, maybe Trump's so petty that he would be pulled the nomination, but

[Tim Miller]

he's Already been nominated. He's already been nominated. So what are you worried about? And this is what worries you about him being in there in this role? You know, you'd roll your eyes at it if that was him on cnbc. And Andrew Ross Sorkin asked him that two weeks before he was nominated. And it's like, okay, this guy wants to get the job. He shows himself out to be a big wuss. But, like, now it's alarming. It's like, you've already been nominated and you're testifying under oath. Like, just. And you're supposed to be the independent Fed chair. Just say it. And again, like, it would have maybe been different if you, if he was, if then at least in the areas under his remit, he was clear that he'd be independent. Right. You know, and he was just like, no, those investigations into cooking Powell were wrong. Or, you know, yes, I will buc the president if he ever tries to pressure me. But he wouldn't, he didn't do it. None of the, he weaseled out all of them.

[Sam Stein]

Weaseled out of all of it. And the most charitable view of this is that he's just saying what he has to say. And once he's in the post, he'll be fine. There's nothing that's given me any indication. And I, I, I really trust Catherine on this, but she was watching. She's just like, there's nothing really that comes to the surface to suggest that he will be independent. And Trump's been very explicit that he wants rate cuts no matter what. And Warsh has been pretty explicit that he recognized that the reason he didn't get the job in the first Trump administration was because he wasn't forcefully advocating rate cuts enough. So it's all pointing in the same direction, which he's going to go in there. He's just going to do Trump's bidding.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. The other thing he said, I would say that the broad contours of the economy are improving.

[Sam Stein]

Really?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I'm like, really?

[Sam Stein]

Are they? What parts?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it doesn't. What the broadest contour. It's crypto. The crypto market is actually crypto's kind of down. Private prisons. Private prisons is improving. If you're a Landman character, things are pretty good right now. I don't know. Other than that. Question mark.

[Trace Dominguez]

Your social media feed says, eat more protein. Track your sleep, boost your VO2 max wake up and cold plunge. Cleanse yourself of parasites. You're intrigued but confused. So where can you turn? Welcome to Health versus Hype, the show where we take the loudest wellness trends on the Internet and ask the questions only science can answer. What's real, what's exaggerated, and what is completely wrong. I'm Trace Dominguez. Each episode we show the science behind viral health claims. From high protection protein diets to cold plunges. Detoxing to sleep. Tech obsession. And we talk to the people in the middle of it all. Influencers, the curious, but more importantly, doctors and researchers. Not to cancel the trend, not to hype it more, but to understand it. Listen to Health vs Hype with the American Medical association on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Slow the scroll. Start asking better questions.

[Sam Stein]

Questions.

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[Tim Miller]

I want to highlight two bulwark stories and we'll get to our cabinet rankings. Will Salenton was stepping in for Joe Perdicone. Shout out Joe Perdicone. Having a baby. A lot of bulwark babies out there these days.

[Sam Stein]

Had a baby not having had a dad.

[Tim Miller]

Didn't I say that? Had baby. Beautiful aunt, obviously. Obviously. Great jeans. Yeah, not that we're doing caliper stuff and like jeans stuff right here. The new baby, Joe Bernico's new baby really looks the part. Okay. Really looks the part of a good looking baby sitting in for him. On the press Pass newsletter, we're looking at the various momdani acts going through Congress.

[Sam Stein]

Three of them.

[Tim Miller]

Republicans really think they're clever with various things that are have the Mamdani acronym. The couple of them that really jumped out at me was one was the Chip Roy act about measures against Marxism's dangerous adherents and noxious Islamists. And it basically was saying we will deport people who are immigrants to this country who are socialists or Islamists or believe in Sharia will not allow immigrants to come in if they believe in Sharia or if they believe in socialism. Chippera is a separate act banning Sharia in the country. I got a couple thoughts on that, but I was wondering what your takeaways were from the story.

[Sam Stein]

As the editor, I feel like, yeah, I feel like we could get to five. Mom Donnie acts the acronym game could be.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, at least mob Donnie is just really mogging. It's unbelievable. I turned on Hannity the other night. Literally. Not like a little funny bit, like we do a little bit for five seconds. There's a full segment, like commercial segment, commercial dedicated to the Mamdani Kurtz, which was that the Mets have not won a baseball game since he hugged the mascot. He had a guest on to discuss it and it was like an eight minute segment. I'm just like the Montgomery Arrangements. And no, I'm not dead serious. I sat there, maybe it was four minutes, I don't know. It was a length, it was a full guest. It felt like eight minutes. It was a lengthy segment on this and it's like these guys are.

[Sam Stein]

What were the conclusions they drew that

[Tim Miller]

he has, yeah, he's a socialist and he's bad for New York and he's cursing the city, but he's responsible for their bullpen collages.

[Sam Stein]

I don't really understand this.

[Tim Miller]

The grocery stores, I don't know. But the obsession. And there are no chinks in the armor. It is kind of like it's very Trumpy. There's a little bit of like Madani has some. Like, for a long time there were no chinks in the Trump armor. Like doesn't feel like they can land a punch anyway. Sorry. 3 on Don X.

[Sam Stein]

1 other problem is that Trump seems to be totally obsessed with the guy, in love with him and he just can't get enough of him. These acts, they're so stupid. This is so. This is so dumb. But I will say the Chip Roy one is particularly dumb because if you actually read it as Will did and you like take it to its logical conclusion, it's not that you're like a self identified socialist or something like that. It's like you believe in socialism and that would be enough to prevent your entry to America. So it would be. If you, if you took it to its basic conclusion, like AOC would be thrown out of the country. Bernie Sanders would be thrown out of the country. It's so dark and silly and worse

[Tim Miller]

than that, I mean, it's un American. It's just fundamentally against the basic tenets of America. We live in a pluralist society. It doesn't actually matter what your political beliefs are. We live side by side as neighbors and work in a democracy. And you can vote for your side and we can vote for our side.

[Sam Stein]

Do you think people really believe that we're about to be overrun by Sharia law in this country?

[Tim Miller]

I'm glad you asked that, Sam, because I don't know. But if you were, if you were, if you were genuinely concerned about Sharia coming to the country, I would think that you would also be pretty alarmed that the Sharia law dictators in the Middle east seem to own our government. We're getting a free air Force one from a Sharia law government in Qatar. Donald Trump's kids are in business with the Sharia government in the uae. His son in law is in business, the Sharia government and Saudi, apparently, Apparently those Sharia governments were pushing for us to get into this war in Iran. We're sending our, you know, young men and women over into harm's way because the Sharia governments that Donald Trump has buddied up with are concerned about this, their safety. It's like, okay, you know, they've, they've bought our sports league, so maybe they're getting out of golf now. They're getting into our movies. They're investing in the movies. I just, I would think that if, like, you were serious about combating the influence of Sharia in the country, like, rather than talking about, like, deporting a handful of immigrants, you'd be talking also. Or maybe not. Rather, maybe in addition to that, you would also be talking about, like, limiting the ways in which these Sharia dictators can invest and get their, you know, tentacles into our economy and into the President's family.

[Sam Stein]

Someone needs to put together the Kushner act, and I can't come up with the acronym right now or the Witkoff Act.

[Tim Miller]

Kingdom.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, someone in the comments give us a good acronym for that. But, like, yeah, why does Jared get to hang out with all the Sharia dictators and take their money, but we can't incorporate some of their great laws? I should say for full disclosure, you're going to make fun of me for this, but I may go to the Qatar Embassy party for the White House correspondence. That's a party. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I think it's Cutter. I think it's pronounced.

[Sam Stein]

It's to each his own. Tim, you're going to go. Tell me how.

[Tim Miller]

Don't go to the fucking Cutter Party. What, are you going to throw blood on it? Take some red paint and throw blood on the wall?

[Sam Stein]

Hold on. There's the Grinder Party and then there's the Cutter Party the same night. I'm trying to.

[Tim Miller]

You're going to do both.

[Sam Stein]

Go between them and see if there's any difference.

[Tim Miller]

You're going to be a bridge, if you will, an Eiffel Tower between the Grinder Party and the Clutter Party.

[Sam Stein]

Maybe we can intermingle the two.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

How would that go over?

[Tim Miller]

I don't. I don't know. Final point. I think that Sharia. It's much more dangerous that Sharia has integrated itself into Mar A La than into, you know, local governments across the country, which they have not done.

[Sam Stein]

Just to be clear, they are not in local governance.

[Tim Miller]

I do. I do hope that the Chip Roys of the world will. Will get on that if they're concerned about Sharia. I just want to mention this because I appreciate Jonathan Cohn's article about this and I felt that and talked about it yesterday. There's this horrible mass shooting in Shreveport, Arkansas, Louisiana. We kind of. Shreveport's basically Arkansas, though. Like, it's, It's. I don't like to own it, but Shreveport, Louisiana, just this horrible mass shooting. One guy killed eight kids age 3 to 11, in various houses. It's horrible. And Jonathan Cohn wrote about how it's the worst mass shooting we've had in quite a while as far as the number of deaths and then for all the deaths to be children. And it just didn't like the news coverage of it was basically non. Existent.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, no, this. I'm really grateful that Jonathan wrote this piece because it's. It really does get to me. You and I were from the same age and obviously we were around during Sandy Hook, and I remember that day very vividly. Sandy Hook is town that's about 40 minutes from where I grew up. And. And also just the sheer horror of it. And I remember, like, walking around that day and just kind of like, like days. It was just awful and you couldn't really comprehend it. Like, it. It didn't compute that something this horrible could happen in our country. And then, you know, we had a big gun control debate afterwards and it failed and all that stuff, and it was just demoralizing. And, you know, I wrote a lot about this, about how this was the toughest day at the Obama White House and how they had to go about trying to figure it out. And I say that all because, you know, that wasn't that long ago. I mean, it was long ago, obviously. It was 2012, I believe, but we cared then.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

And now you have eight kids who are just slaughtered. And it didn't even. And Con was looking at the. The major news outlets. It didn't even make, like, top six stories. And we live in a society where we basically become totally callous to the idea that someone can gun down eight kids in two houses. And that's just the way of life. And we deal with it and we move on because we have become accustomed to it. Now, there are circumstantial differences here. Obviously, this was two homes. It was a father. He was suffering from clear mental issues versus a school where anyone's kid could be. But at the end of the day, eight kids died, three to 11, and nobody seems to have cared. And this is not a unpreventable situation. There are things you can do to prevent these types of tragedies from taking place. We just choose not to do it. It. That's the problem.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And the guy had had another gun. Gun crime in the past. I continue to just say that. I think that there is a sense of political fatalism around this issue, which I understand. I think particularly after Sandy Hook and then after Parkland, like this idea that it's just there's nothing that can be done, but, like, stuff can be done. I. A Republican governor, Rick Scott, who's now a senator, signed the red flag law after Parkland. Yeah. And since then, Florida's gone the other way. Like, they've loosened gun laws under DeSantis. Right. They can be pressured. And. And I continue to think that there was a period for good reason. There was a lot of. I'm for criminal justice reform, and there are a lot of reforms that were needed to our criminal justice system and continue to be there. But I think that the focus on that, on the left, people are a little bit scared to come out for harsher penalties and restrictions around people that have been violent criminals in the past or done gun crimes in the past. And I do think that pairing something that is a little bit stricter around violent criminals and gun crime, like crimes using guns, you know, not drug crimes or whatever, but like, you know, crimes were improper use of a gun was what you. What the person did. Pairing that with gun reform, I think is popular. I think most of the people in the country want that, and nobody's really done it or tried really hard on it. I don't know. I think that that's a viable policy platform for a 2028 Dem if they want to have the, the courage to do it.

[Sam Stein]

Well, I mean what you're talking about is a different version, but similar to the 94 crime bill.

[Tim Miller]

Assault weapon.

[Sam Stein]

It is, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I mean there were bad stuff in the crime bill. You hate to bring that up because there's some bad stuff in there, but like the, the, the basic contours of that deal, which is like cracking down on criminals and cracking down on guns.

[Sam Stein]

It was tons of money for cops, after school programs, much stricter penalties for those who were convicted. And that was the issue that got a lot of people. But in exchange, real gun control, legislative reforms, including the assault weapons ban. And look, it worked. But the assault weapons ban, this is irrelevant to this situation in Louisiana. But the assault lapsed because it had to be on a 10 year window. But yeah, you're right. Like this is the combination legislation you're going to have to do and no one's putting it forward because there is a fatalism about it.

[Trace Dominguez]

Your social media feed says, eat more protein. Track your sleep. Boost your VO2 max. Wake up and cold plunge. Cleanse yourself of parasites. You're intrigued, but confused. So where can you turn? Welcome to Health versus Hype, the show where we take the loudest wellness trends on the Internet and ask the questions only science can answer. What's real, what's exaggerated, and what is completely wrong. I'm Trace Dominguez. Each episode we show the science behind viral health claims. From hypothesis protein diets to cold plunges, Detoxing to sleep. Tech obsession. And we talk to the people in the middle of it all, Influencers, the curious, but more importantly, doctors and researchers. Not to cancel the trend, not to hype it more, but to understand it. Listen to Health vs Hype with the American Medical association on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Slow the scroll. Start asking better questions.

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[Tim Miller]

All right. To the cabinet rankings, everyone's favorite part of the show.

[Sam Stein]

Hell yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I just want to go back into history here. Me and Sam have been doing this since the beginning of the administration. We ranked the worst cabinet members. It is so competitive and I agonize over my choices. Like, it's so challenging. If you go back to the end of the year, for example, our Christmas time rankings, Sam's worst was Christy Noem. Now gone. Our rest in power, Christie and Brian. Boy, the Brian story really got dark.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's tough. I mean, when you like literally are Sam Rockwell and White Lotus, things are getting a little rough. Kristi Noem was Sam's first RFK was number 2, Hegseth 3. Russ, vote 4. For me, it was Gnome, Rubio Besant at the end of the year and then a couple months ago after Gnome was defenestrated, on my list was Rubio. Hegseth Bondi was my top three. Rest easy Pam Bondi. And Sam's was Hegseth Bondi, rfk. So Bondi is now out of the picture. We've put Russ votes out of the picture. We're not counting him in the cabinet. I think just because of all the attention that he has received in the past week, I'm going to throw cash in. So it's not in the cabinet.

[Sam Stein]

No, no, no, no, no. He's not in the cabinet.

[Tim Miller]

No, we can't do that.

[Sam Stein]

Throw fucking Stephen Miller.

[Tim Miller]

It's our game. We can make out the rules.

[Sam Stein]

No, no, no, no, no. There have to be rules. No, absolutely not.

[Tim Miller]

Market zero. Market zero. Smoker Smokey. Who was it fucking stepped over the line? Can't do market zero. Okay, fine. We won't put cash in. Where would cash be? Well, we'll discuss that as a poster.

[Sam Stein]

Why? That's why you can't put them in.

[Tim Miller]

All right, so the worst cabinet officials, as it stands right now, we are going to include obviously as an option the new DHS secretary, Marquain Mullen. And then I would like to include action Attorney General Todd Blanche. Is that okay for you? Yeah. Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche. So they're both in there. Sam, are we going to do a power four or power three?

[Sam Stein]

Power four.

[Tim Miller]

Power four. Okay. Fourth place. The fourth place cabinet member for Sam Stein. Fourth worst.

[Sam Stein]

Okay. Wow. See the bet the. My top ones now being gone makes This a little complicated, obviously. Obviously.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

I'm gonna go with the ones who I think are the worst. I'm not gonna rank them yet. Okay, you're not ranking yet. I'm just gonna throw my. Because I want to think this through a little bit.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. We're gonna talk it out.

[Sam Stein]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Like, who is even in the. Who could even be in the nominating category? I mean, it's kind of the nominating.

[Sam Stein]

It's very clear that Hegseth is obviously in top four. That's.

[Tim Miller]

No. 1's. Hegseth and Rubio and Blanche and RFK, I think, are obviously in the nominating category. You don't think about to include them, but they're all in the nominating category.

[Sam Stein]

Yes, they're in the nominating category. You know, are we just going to take Lutnick out? I guess he's kind of fallen off the radar. Chris Wright's had a really bad run. Yeah, Chris Wright's had a bad run. Like, he's talking about bringing back coal as, like, our main source of energy.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And he was just testifying. He's like, yeah. You know, I mean, the gas prices were high among.

[Sam Stein]

It is what it is. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I keep wanting to get Brooke Rollins.

[Sam Stein]

I knew you were going to say Brooke.

[Tim Miller]

I keep wanting to get her into

[Sam Stein]

my thing, make the case for why she should be.

[Tim Miller]

Who has been harmed? I guess immigrants. If you're just kind of trying to categorize groups. All right. You know, we don't like to do identity politics on the board, but if we're going to do identity politics, which identities have been most harmed by this administration? Materially harmed immigrants, recent immigrants, people. Asylees. Like, anybody in that category would be number one. Farmers might be, too. I mean, like, the farm economy. The Iowa's economy is in shambles. The farm economy is only going to get worse. Fertilizer prices now are skyrocketing. Gas prices are skyrocketing. Brook Rollins is like, you guys should just have a chicken in your backyard and do your own farms. Like, they. They're not doing anything to help them. I just. I think that you have to throw it out there.

[Sam Stein]

Okay. And we obviously. Laura Chavez Dariemer is no longer around, so he can't camp.

[Tim Miller]

Did you see the picture of the strip club that she went to?

[Sam Stein]

No, I didn't.

[Tim Miller]

I gotta tell you, I haven't been following the Department of Labor drama that closely because, you know, there's just a lot happening in the news, but there's a lot of weird stuff. Happening. I mean, her. Her husband and her dad were sending inappropriate text messages to the staff.

[Sam Stein]

Her dad, too?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

I did not know that.

[Tim Miller]

Wow. I'm gonna put this. We'll put this on the screen for YouTube people. And I'm gonna share this with you right now in Slack.

[Sam Stein]

Exactly.

[Tim Miller]

This is a post from the person that you're trying to dethrone right now, Jane Coston. And she visited this strip club

[Sam Stein]

that

[Tim Miller]

is Angel Strip Club. Angels dancers, lottery food. It is the most depressing building I've ever seen in my life. The Secretary of Labor was in there.

[Sam Stein]

Well, you haven't tried the food there. You don't know. Could be top cuisine now.

[Tim Miller]

Over.

[Sam Stein]

That's a rough joint.

[Tim Miller]

I wish I could describe this. And we are in what looks to be a rural to ex urban strip mall. That. Where everything else is empty, there's a parts store and then there's kind of like a small concrete square with some shingles on top of it.

[Sam Stein]

It.

[Tim Miller]

It says Angel Strip Club with a lady. The outline of a booby lady in the picture. And there's no window.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Do you see a little sandwich sign? It says food to go. In case you just want to grab the food. In case, you know, you just want the food but not the strippers.

[Tim Miller]

The Secretary of Labor was just vibing Angel Strip Club.

[Sam Stein]

Imagine you're working that club and the labor secretary kind of rolls up. Madam Secretary, this is in Portland.

[Tim Miller]

This is in Portland, Oregon. Okay, so we're not. We can't include her. She's out.

[Sam Stein]

No, no. But we do have our next assignment for Jared Poland's video series to go visit Angels.

[Tim Miller]

All right.

[Sam Stein]

She's out.

[Tim Miller]

All right, here's my besant. And the economy's still not going that well. We can't let Nutlik out. So I would say that the nominating category would be Hegseth, Rubio, Blanche, RFK Wright, Rollins, Besant, and Nutlik. Those would be the eight potential nominees for Worst.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, I'm going to go my first. The worst or the worst. I'm going to work it down. Worst is Hex. Absolutely worse. And the reason he's bad. Even more bad now is that he's taken some of the RFK and just adopting it as his own. Like getting rid of the measles. Sorry. The flu vaccine requirement was a real stroke of genius. Let's just get everyone really sick. That's. That's smart. So he's my number one.

[Tim Miller]

It's not even close. And we should just say, I think that at the End of the year, following the murders of Americans in the streets, Kristi Noem really solidified herself as the worst cabinet member. A lot of competition, a lot of discussion. I think now pretty clearly Pete Hegseth is the worst. And it's not really even a close second. It's hard to even to provide a secondary nominee.

[Sam Stein]

I totally agree with that. I continue to put Bobby up there as my number two. I can't just quit him because he sucks.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, well, I'm going to make the pitch for Rubio as number two.

[Sam Stein]

Okay. He was your number two last time, too.

[Tim Miller]

He was, Yeah. I think Rubio stays in my number two slot. He's the reason all this shit's happening.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Tim Miller]

He's the reason if it's all happening. The Venezuela Keeper was a Rubio deal and it succeeded. And, you know, he's the neocon in the administration. He's the one that wants to overthrow these regimes. I do think there's some reports that he was a little bit skeptical, at least of the BB presentation in the. In the Situation Room. Unfortunately, if we could include BB as the cabinet member, he would be number two for me, but I think that's a little bit of a stretch. And so, you know, Rubio, to me, is, like, supposed to be the adult in the room. And the thing that is in his portfolio is the policy item that is wrecking the president's standing, wrecking the economy, resulting in the deaths of American service members unnecessarily. I just think he's a clear two for me.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, fair enough. I'm gonna ask to go top five, because I have. I have a couple things.

[Tim Miller]

Top five?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I just. I'm thinking it's gonna make you.

[Tim Miller]

I was gonna make you do only three. I was gonna leave this hard choice for you in the third. Third slot.

[Sam Stein]

There's a lot. Because you made a compelling case by Ruby. He's gonna be my fifth. Ruby is gonna be my fifth. My third is gonna be Besant. I just think the economy's not. Yeah. Do you like the economy? Are you happy with how things are going?

[Tim Miller]

No. The economy's a nightmare. I hate Besant. I just have to look around, and I can't let my personal distaste for Scott Besant affect my rankings. And the sanctity of the rankings seem to be most important.

[Sam Stein]

You were Besson at three last time.

[Tim Miller]

I know, I know. And I mean, look, I find him totally repulsive in every way, and he's a horrible representative of homosexuals but it's gotta be Todd Blanche. It's gotta be Todd Blanche.

[Sam Stein]

I guess I'm not saying Todd Blanche isn't bad, but he's just started and I need a little bit more.

[Tim Miller]

Did you watch Todd Blanche's press conference yesterday? I watched it where he was like, he's like, I never press conference about the Atlantic article about how Kevin Ash Patel needed the SWAT team to break down the door because he was so drunk. And he's just like, I didn't read the articles. He isn't. He is responsible for the Glenn Maxwell move to Club Led. Trump obviously trusts him more. He moved. As insane as it sounds, the reason why Bondi got moved out is that Trump didn't think she was doing a good enough job of going after his political foes, and he felt like Blanche could do better. I don't even really think it's close for.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, I, I, I, look, when we revisit these rankings soon, it's, I, I will have more material to work with with Blanche. I'm gonna give him a little bit of space here. Also. I thought the press conference was awesome, but I thought Cash was the real star. I mean, Cash just absolutely getting killed under, under questioning and refusing to answer whether he. They're like, were you worried you're gonna get fired because you couldn't, couldn't log into your system? He's like, couldn't answer the question. Refused to answer the question. Shout out to Ryan Riley at NBC for pushing him on that. All right, four for me. Me, four for me. Because five is Rubio. Four for me is going to be Chris Wright for the reasons I explained. This man is in over his head. Like, we are in an oil crisis. He's talking about gas never coming back down for a while, and then he's like, well, we got coal. And I just feel like we need someone a little bit more in their depth at this moment at the Department of Energy. And, and this guy ain't it. So he's not ever been in our rankings before.

[Tim Miller]

Chris. Right.

[Sam Stein]

So this is new. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Chris Wrong. You might want to call him. Okay. Chris Wrong is not going to make my list, but it's a good. Okay, it's a good nomination for my fourth slot. I mean, it's, it's really rfk. You know, Tulsi was out of the nominating category because she's against the war and she's going to be fired. So I was, like, looking for another foreign policy person because since the foreign policy thing is driving everything, it's hard for me to bling Scott Besant for the economic situation right now in this moment, because it's really driven by the war side of things. And so for that reason, I think he's gonna fall out of my rankings this time. I'm gonna put RFK number four and close. I've been dying to get Brooke Rollins into a ranking. Close her out at number five. So I'm Hegstack, Rubio, Blanche, rfk, Brooke Rollins.

[Sam Stein]

Congrats to Brooke. I'm really proud of her. It took a long time think about

[Tim Miller]

how bad you have to be as Secretary of AG to even get a sniff as one of the worst cabinet members in this administration. And she's done it, and she's earned it.

[Sam Stein]

You made a really compelling case for her, and I'm really proud of her

[Tim Miller]

final pick for you. You had Rubio. So your final ranking is Hegseth, rfk, Besant, Wright. Rubio, Rubio, Blanche, rfk, Brooke. Okay, well, that's good. We'll check back in in a couple months. We're closing the potpourri section. I'm gonna.

[Sam Stein]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

So two. Two items for you on potpourri. One, you posted this. Why aren't we talking more about down to fuck St. Louis?

[Sam Stein]

Dude, have you not watched it?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I watched a couple episodes. It's okay. Jason Bateman. I love it. Feels kind of like ozarks, but in

[Sam Stein]

St. Louis, it's a little Ozarky. The reason I liked it is because it was both fun.

[Tim Miller]

It's because it's making you and the Mrs. Talk about maybe whether some ways that you could open up the marriage. Because that's the thing about DTF St. Louis. It's like married couples are trying to, you know, mess around a little bit.

[Sam Stein]

Is that why that's not quite right.

[Tim Miller]

Titillating the marriage?

[Sam Stein]

No, that's not. It's a really. It's funny, but it's also incredibly sad. They managed to do the combination of that, and then, I don't know, it was. I thought it was really well done. Bateman's great in it. And. And I mean, obviously, like, it's probably one of the more interesting shows when it comes to the concept of, like, midlife loneliness, especially male loneliness. I'm not saying I'm suffering from loneliness, but I thought it was a really provocative. I'm not. I'm really happy. I don't know. I left every episode sort of thinking about it. You know, when show's really good, when you're. When you stop the Episode, you're like, damn, I want to just stew over what. What I just watched. And I really liked it. Now, when I posted that, the responses, I was curious for the responses. A lot of people did not like it. I was surprised by that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, my husband did like it. We watched one or two episodes, and I'm like, wait, man, he's. I'm kind of deferring to him on shows now because I'm either. Yeah, I'm either doing podcast outlines or fighting with someone on Twitter or dozing off during the shows now. So it's kind of like we're going to let. Do what he wants. I do have Hacks is back. I haven't checked out yet. No spoilers. Okay. The one exception to that is obviously the NBA player. Else. Yeah, I'm kind of down about it right now. My Nuggets, my Nuggets fans, my Nuggets media pals. I did a Nuggets podcast with my boy Jeff Morton. If you want to hear my Nuggets takes, go check that out. But Jeff's more positive than I am. I don't know. I just doesn't feel like the Nuggets got that dog in them. Feels like we need Peyton Watson. We've had some great games, though. The plan was great. Wimby just got hurt.

[Sam Stein]

That was what I wanted to talk about. Wemby, you saw the concussion.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Bruce. Brutal. I mean, when you're that tall and you fall and hit your head right on his shin. Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

Chin right on.

[Tim Miller]

Big fall. He might be out the whole series.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. I still think they pull it out because the Blazers are fine, but they're not.

[Tim Miller]

They're just on the great.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

The new Blazers owner is funny. Have you followed Destroy at all? He's like, he didn't let the team have a late checkout. He didn't let the team have late checkout, so the team had to hang out in the lot for a couple hours. He paid $4 million for the team. All right. Let everybody get late checkout at the Hilton. All right.

[Sam Stein]

Not great. The other series that's really. The other series that's really intriguing is Hawks, Knicks. I don't know if you've been checking that out.

[Tim Miller]

I have.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I got a lot of Knicks in my life.

[Sam Stein]

Again, this is one of those things where it's like. It's somewhat similar. I feel like the Hawks are plucky and they're good, but they're not gonna pull it off. But, man, these. These two can both go seven. I would not Be shocked by that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Well, I think Nuggets, Timberwolves good, too. And it's been. Yeah, like, that's more realistic.

[Sam Stein]

I could have seen that even before. Whereas these two series, I was like, okay, yeah, spurs might sweep.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I'm a little down because I just. It feels inevitable that we're. We're hurtling towards Thunder, Celtics, and I just can't. I can't do it. I can't. I can't do. Celtics lost.

[Sam Stein]

Celtics just lost.

[Tim Miller]

Can't do Thunder, Celtics just. The east feels weak anyway. I don't know.

[Sam Stein]

Detroit looks weak. Celtics look weak. Knicks look weak. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. It's. The Thunder aren't enough.

[Tim Miller]

Who are you rooting for?

[Sam Stein]

Well, I was rooting for the spurs because my boy Steph Castle's on the

[Tim Miller]

spurs and I'm Portland, it's a Yukon.

[Sam Stein]

I know it's a little bit hard, but Steph, I don't want to get too into, but if you watch Steph just for a little bit, you really start to appreciate just the defense he has. He does this kind of shadowy defense on these players where it looks like he's just totally beaten. Then he can catch up with them and get in front of their shot. I just think he's so gifted. And then obviously when he. Wemby's generational, and I'm worried that Wemby's not going to come back in a while and who knows what happens? But, yeah, I'm ruined for the spurs for sure.

[Tim Miller]

It was really cool what they did with the, with the uniforms in the stadium. I got love for the spurs, hate for the Thunder. Sorry, OKC fans. All right, that's Sam Stein. I don't know if it's going to happen for you. I know you really wanted to get back into the first place slot on most downloads, but the Wednesday one is tough. We had a lot of competition out there in the content space. I'm hoping for you, though, because you, you really. You elevate the show when you come on. You do well.

[Sam Stein]

That's why you invite me and beg me to come on.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you beg me. We on tomorrow's show, we got a double header. We got a double header. We're going to bring a little Chrisma, a little Chrismica in April to tomorrow's show and have a new member of the Bull work on It's a fun double header. Come out, hang with us. Then make sure that podcast has more downloads than Sam so I can really rub it in his face. We'll see y' all tomorrow, though. Bye, Sam. Bye, everybody. Peace.

[Sam Stein]

Later.

[Tim Miller]

The Borg Podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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[Tim Miller]

Here's the truth.

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