Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: Sam Stein – How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?

Release Date: March 13, 2025

Hosts: Tim Miller and Sam Stein

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1. Capitol Hill Budget Negotiations

Timestamp: 01:26 - 07:17

The episode kicks off with Tim Miller and Sam Stein delving into the complexities of the current budget negotiations on Capitol Hill. They discuss the recently passed Continuing Resolution (CR) in the House, which narrowly survived with only one Democrat, Jared Golden, voting in favor, sending it now to the Senate for further deliberation.

Key Points:

• Funding Allocations: The CR includes increased funding for the military while significantly cutting discretionary funds for Washington, D.C., such as a $1 billion reduction impacting local services and education.
• Senate Dynamics: The Senate faces a delicate decision as Republicans hold enough votes to pass the CR without a filibuster, potentially requiring eight Democrats to support cloture to proceed.

Notable Quote:

"The Senate calculus is like not actually that clear." – Tim Miller [02:44]

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2. Democratic Strategies: Accelerationism, Limp Objection, and Accommodation

Timestamp: 07:14 - 35:55

Tim and Sam explore the strategic options available to Senate Democrats to counter the Republican push for the CR. They outline three primary approaches:

• Accelerationism: Allowing the CR to pass to expose the detrimental effects of Republican policies, hoping public backlash will shift voter sentiment ([07:17]).
• Limp Objection: Objecting to cloture without full opposition, attempting to negotiate concessions while appearing to oppose the CR ([08:37]).
• Accommodation: Making deals to pass the CR by trading support on other legislation, balancing immediate needs against long-term goals ([09:44]).

Key Insights:

• Risk of Precedent: Sam expresses concern that repeatedly conceding to shutdown threats could set a dangerous precedent, weakening Democratic leverage in future negotiations ([07:43]).
• Public Sentiment: There's a palpable concern about the impact on everyday Americans, particularly in Washington, D.C., where budget cuts could lead to massive layoffs and diminished public services ([05:00]).

Notable Quotes:

"How do you negotiate with a nihilist?" – Sam Stein [07:14]

"These are legislative terrorists and when you give them to them once, they're going to keep doing it over and over and over again." – Congressman Jimmy Gomez [61:44]

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3. The Challenge of Leadership: Pete Buttigieg’s Potential 2028 Run

Timestamp: 17:51 - 20:07

The conversation shifts to political leadership with speculation about Pete Buttigieg’s viability as a 2028 presidential candidate. Tim and Sam discuss the potential hurdles Buttigieg might face, including limited appeal beyond highly educated voters and cultural challenges.

Key Points:

• Demographic Appeal: Buttigieg might struggle to resonate with working-class voters who feel disconnected from his background and policies.
• Cultural Barriers: Being openly gay, Buttigieg may face additional scrutiny, although this aspect also garners support within progressive circles.

Notable Quote:

"He's got the boulevardier crowd." – Sam Stein [20:01]

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4. Mahmoud Khalil’s ICE Detention: A Free Speech and Legal Crisis

Timestamp: 20:28 - 38:35

The episode delves into the controversial detention of Mahmoud Khalil, a Palestinian activist held in an ICE facility in Louisiana following protests at Columbia University. Tim and Sam analyze the legal and ethical implications of his detention.

Key Points:

• Legal Grounds: Khalil, a green card holder with a citizen wife, was detained under vague provisions allowing deportation if deemed a threat to U.S. foreign policy.
• Free Speech Concerns: The use of government power to silence protestors raises significant concerns about free speech and governmental overreach.
• Public Reaction: There is widespread disapproval of the harsh measures taken against Khalil, seen as an attempt to punish and intimidate rather than engage constructively.

Notable Quotes:

"It's a real chilling use of government authority." – Sam Stein [21:45]

"This is... conterintuitive, but we... people depend on the federal government because the private sector won't fund this type of stuff." – Congressman Jimmy Gomez [39:48]

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5. Tariffs, Economic Turmoil, and Corporate Struggles

Timestamp: 35:55 - 44:10

Tim and Sam discuss the ongoing economic challenges exacerbated by aggressive tariff policies. They highlight the confusion and frustration among consumers and business leaders alike.

Key Points:

• Impact of Tariffs: Increased tariffs on steel, aluminum, and China have led to higher consumer prices, reduced spending, and uncertainty about economic stability.
• Corporate Responses: Companies like Puma are cutting jobs globally due to reduced demand, citing factors such as "Hispanic hibernation"—a decline in consumer activity due to economic insecurity.
• Economic Forecast: Fears of a potential recession loom as consumer confidence plummets and spending decreases across the board.

Notable Quotes:

"He's treating it like a reality show." – Sam Stein [33:54]

"The economy did great the first time under Trump." – Tim Miller [34:14]

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6. Interview with Congressman Jimmy Gomez: Democratic Messaging and Voter Engagement

Timestamp: 52:54 - 72:45

In the second segment, Tim Miller interviews Congressman Jimmy Gomez from California’s 34th district. They explore effective strategies for Democrats to reconnect with Hispanic and Asian voters, emphasizing economic issues over cultural ones.

Key Points:

• Economic Messaging: Gomez stresses the importance of focusing on relatable economic issues like housing affordability, childcare, and grocery prices to resonate with voters ([54:40]).
• Relatability: Democrats must present themselves as relatable and grounded in the struggles of the working class, sharing personal stories and community involvement ([55:05]).
• Cultural Issues Secondary: While supporting LGBTQ+ rights and environmental causes, Gomez argues that addressing immediate economic hardships takes precedence in voter decision-making ([63:43]).
• Policy Focus: Proposes creating a housing boom, reducing red tape for construction, and enhancing federal support to address economic disparities ([63:43]).

Notable Quotes:

"People have to feel that. And I've been recording on social media more videos about just grocery shopping because I help with the grocery shopping every week to show people, hey, I know what's going on because I see it every day." – Congressman Jimmy Gomez [55:05]

"We have to have an agenda that meets the moment. And that agenda is creating a housing boom that we haven't seen since World War II." – Congressman Jimmy Gomez [66:24]

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7. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Segments

Timestamp: 72:45 - End

The podcast concludes with light-hearted banter about sports and upcoming segments featuring Congressman Jimmy Gomez. Tim and Sam reiterate the importance of focusing on economic issues to regain voter trust and ensure Democratic success in future elections.

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Conclusion

In this episode, Tim Miller and Sam Stein navigate through the intricate landscape of current political challenges, from budget negotiations poised to impact Washington, D.C., to the broader implications of aggressive tariff policies and their economic fallout. The in-depth interview with Congressman Jimmy Gomez provides actionable insights into reshaping Democratic messaging to better connect with Hispanic and Asian voters by prioritizing economic concerns over cultural debates. The episode underscores the urgency for Democrats to adapt their strategies to address the immediate needs of working-class Americans, ensuring relevance and resilience in the face of mounting political and economic pressures.

Key Takeaways:

• Economic Focus: Democrats must prioritize relatable economic issues to reconnect with key voter demographics.
• Strategic Negotiation: Senate Democrats face tough choices in budget negotiations, balancing immediate legislative needs with long-term strategic goals.
• Free Speech and Legal Boundaries: Government overreach in targeting protestors raises significant free speech concerns.
• Adaptive Messaging: Authentic and relatable messaging is crucial for Democratic success in diverse and economically strained communities.

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Notable Quotes with Attribution:

• "Are you having a change of heart?" – Sam Stein [02:43]
• "How do you negotiate with a nihilist?" – Sam Stein [07:14]
• "These are legislative terrorists and when you give them to them once, they're going to keep doing it over and over and over again." – Congressman Jimmy Gomez [61:44]
• "People have to feel that. And I've been recording on social media more videos about just grocery shopping because I help with the grocery shopping every week to show people, hey, I know what's going on because I see it every day." – Congressman Jimmy Gomez [55:05]

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from "The Bulwark Podcast" episode featuring Sam Stein and Congressman Jimmy Gomez. It provides an informative overview for listeners who haven't tuned in, highlighting the critical political and economic issues at play.

Transcript

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[Host]

Hello and welcome to the Bulg podcast. We're coming at you from Washington, DC. So I'm here in the studio between two ferns with managing editor Sam Stein.

[Sam Stein]

We are actually between two.

[Host]

I like it.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, it's very quaint.

[Host]

It's very good. We're going to start a little wonky. We're going to do some Capitol Hill machinations talk. And so I promise for the listeners out there in real America outside the Beltway who don't care about reconciliation and cloture votes that I have candy for them coming at the end. But we have to do this before we get to the budget. We got Congressman Jimmy Gomez up in segment two, so I hope everybody sticks around for that as well. As I mentioned on yesterday's podcast, there was a kind of a quasi cr they're trying to call it a continuing resolution where they're continuing the Biden budget with some changes, some serious changes. They're in a plus up funding for the military, deeply cut funding in Washington, D.C. they're cutting some other discretionary funding. Elon isn't even listening to the isn't even responsive to what they actually are passing. Anyway. This passed the House with one Democrat, Jared golden voting for it. But otherwise on a party line vote, it now goes to the Senate. And it's a pretty complicated situation actually for the Senate. And as the person who's been like screaming the loudest, do something Democrats. Stop them. Fuck them up. Do everything you can. The Senate calculus is like not actually that clear.

[Sam Stein]

Are you Having a change of heart?

[Host]

No, no, I think that we're about to talk about it, but I'm just saying up top that I think that it's a complicated calculus because the Republicans do have the votes to pass this if there's no filibuster. So the Democrats have to decide are we gonna filibuster this? Are we gonna block this from even.

[Sam Stein]

Coming out for a vote? So Rand Paul, I believe is enough. So Republicans need eight Democrats to say yes in order for this to pass.

[Host]

And so that, well, they need eight Democrats to say yes to cloture. This is why it would be annoying, right?

[Sam Stein]

Because like, let's just assume that they're gonna treat cloture as the end all. Be all of it, right? So they need eight Democrats and it is a tough one. I feel like I go back and forth on this yesterday. I was thinking about how, you know, if, if the goal here for Elon and Trump is to like quite literally shave the government down to its studs and fire a bunch of people and like reduce the size of the federal bureaucracy as much as possible, then this would help them do it, right? Like you would basically furlough. All the non essential employees you Russ about would be in charge of figuring out who's essential and then, you know, if the government will refund it. I'm sure they have some crazy ways of making sure that those furloughed employees don't come back and if they do that, they don't give them pay. And what kind of, what kind of outcome is that? Right. Is that a good outcome for Democrats? I don't know. Now on the flip side, I just say on the flip side, and I've talked to a few people about this, it's like, who have you talked to? I can't tell you that. Well, I'll tell you one on the record, but I'll just say this one is anonymous. But I raised this concerns that I just said to a pretty senior Democrat. This person responds, it's certainly possible and real concern, but they're going to pull this stuff over and over and over again. Do we continually get run over and hope we can get to 2026 with the House majority? I just fear that we are setting a terrible precedent and the Senate will never stand up to him. It's all fucking terrible. And they are trying to destroy the city I call home. That being Washington D.C. that's a little emotional at the end, but I mean it may seem emotional, but. And look, I'm obviously a resident, right? But $1 billion ripped from DC budget.

[Host]

It is insane.

[Sam Stein]

They're talking, there's rumors rampant that schools are going to like have to take huge, huge cuts. Like we're talking about 150 million dollar cut in the education leasing cuts.

[Host]

I thought this was the law and order.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. And Trump was supposed to make this the golden capital city and all that stuff. And I will say in inside D.C. it feels like we are being subjected to an invading country. It does. And this is like, this would gut the city. Now they probably love that shit. They think they're probably like, oh, that's great, like you get what you deserve. But I can't even fathom doing something in the reverse, right. Where Democrats would go in and be like, you know what we're really going to screw over. Name your random town in Mississippi. I don't know. Like, it would be insane. And people would be like, you are heartless. And that's totally impossible.

[Host]

Can everybody be on their high horse?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. How dare you.

[Host]

On all the panels, just like looking down on the Democrats are targeting these.

[Sam Stein]

Red state Americans diverted into like the DC story. But that's the, that's the calculus Democrats, Senate Democrats have right now.

[Host]

It's like the D.C. thing is kind of like anytime a new president comes in, it's kind of like an invading army comes into the country. I mean, the whole city does change. But these guys.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, they want to kill Sherman.

[Host]

This is Sherman. Yeah. Okay, so this is Sherman. Part of the reason why the calculus is a little, is a little tough is because if you just put on the inverse, like the Republicans can hold government shutdowns over Democrats heads. They haven't really done it to much effect. I know. I was talking to. I think I can, I can betray this one. He didn't tell me he was on the record, but he's been pretty public on this. I was talking to Brendan Buck, who was Paul Ryan's old guy yesterday, and he's like, look man, our team never got anything out of these government shutdown threats. It was always a loser for us. And even in their case, in the Republican case, in those moments where they're trying to threaten Obama or Biden with shutdowns, it was kind of a win win for them. Not politically, but substantively. They're like, oh, you shut down the government. Okay, great. We don't like the government anyway. So the Democrats are in the different. Like they don't have as much leverage as Republicans do because Democrats want, don't want Russ Smoke to be able to shut everything Down. Right. So. So there is that.

[Sam Stein]

How do you negotiate with a nihilist? Right. Like.

[Host]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

That's the issue. And what are you actually trying to extract? I mean, let's say in theory they got some sort of promise that Elon Musk wouldn't meddle in some agencies or something like that. Do you really think Elon's going to abide by it? Like, he's already, like, pushing the boundaries of the loft, not overstepping them on multiple fronts. So there's, like, quite literally nothing they can put on paper that would make Democrats totally confident that they've solved the situation. So what are you holding out for?

[Host]

So this is how I break that down. I'm going to try to answer that question for you. As I see the Senate Democrats calculus, they basically have three options. They have accelerationism.

[Sam Stein]

What's that?

[Host]

You know the phrase acceleration?

[Sam Stein]

I mean, I can guess.

[Host]

The racists. I mean, this is a. This would be a noble version of accelerationism, I guess, but the racist kind of like there's a group of a subset of the white nationalists that want a race war because they think the quicker we get to civil war. Get it down, the quicker we get to civil war in the country, the better. So there's accelerationism, which is basically saying, fuck it. No, fuck you. You're gonna shut down the government anyway. You're already shutting the government down. Let's do it. Go for it. Let's see what the American people think about your governance. And you won't be surprised to hear, sympathetic to acceleration.

[Sam Stein]

Not you. Right.

[Host]

Yeah, I know.

[Sam Stein]

Let's get it on.

[Host]

Let's go. There is then limp ob, which is option two, which is, you know, basically the paddle version of this.

[Sam Stein]

That's where they are.

[Host]

Yeah, which is where they are. Which is basically saying, like, okay, we're going to kind of object to this. We'll cut you a deal when we vote for cloture if you let us vote against some other thing. It'll be too complicated for anybody to explain. We'll all say we voted no because we all will vote no, because you can't vote. I guess. Let's start here. You can't vote yes on this fucking thing if you're a Democrat. Like, there's no way to just say straight yes, I am a yes on. On codifying the Doge cuts. I'm a yes on cutting DC by a billion. I'm letting Donald Trump do what he wants and putting my name on the. On the bill. You can't say yes, I Don't think you can maybe cut a deal where.

[Sam Stein]

You get a vote.

[Host]

They get to vote on it and they get to pass it 53 to 47. So that's the limp objection.

[Sam Stein]

Limp objection.

[Host]

And then there's just accommodation. The accommodation pass, bench over and taken. Yeah. Which was basically. And Hickenlooper flipped on this. I've seen. But Hickenlooper presented the accommodation as case yesterday, which was basically what you just said, which is like. He's like, it's the best of two terrible options. I don't want to shut the government down and give them even more power to fire people. There's already enough pain.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Host]

So accommodation, limp objection and acceleration.

[Sam Stein]

I'm putting all my money that they do limp objection. There's just no universe where I. I will say there's. The one thing that is. And I don't think they appreciate it is how palpable the anger will be over this. I mean, people are really. I was texting with Howard Dean, ex DNC Chair. He. I mean, he said like, this is the quote. You can't this. We were talking about shutting down the government and what would happen and having to bring people back and how it's possible that they just won't. And he said that can be negotiated out and Trump will get the blame for all the crap he does. The GOP strategy is just a gun to the head of the American people and we should not follow along with it. I don't plan to support any Democrat who does. We can primary incumbents, too. I mean, there is like, they, they want.

[Host]

People are pissed.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, yeah. And like, I think they don't even care. It's not so much. They know the outcomes are shit. Like they're. They know that it's shit either way. Their point is that if you don't show a fight, you're just going to get rolled time and time again and that there are very few venues to fight. This is like literally one of like a handful of venues that they're going to get. And if on the first one they go with, what is it?

[Host]

Objection. The second combination.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Bend over and take it. Yeah. That's going to be bad. And you would imagine that that's like the kind of formula for. We were talking about this a while back, but like a Democrat style Tea Party.

[Host]

Yeah. I want to make the case for accelerationism from a political standpoint. Just political, not policy. Okay. And I don't think, again, I would love to come here and do as I was. As I do on planes. I listen to the MAGA podcast. That's what I.

[Sam Stein]

You do that, too?

[Host]

Yeah. You know, so I was listening to Bannon, and I was thinking to myself, and I was like, does that make.

[Sam Stein]

The plane ride go faster or slower?

[Host]

I was prepping this podcast. I was like, what would Bannon do? Well, wwbd, I think that's actually a worthy thing to.

[Sam Stein]

Way to operate.

[Host]

And the reality is that he would right now, be sitting in my shoes. This mic going to the mattresses being like, zero votes, zero quarter for anyone that gives a vote. We must stop anybody that gives a vote. Patriots, sign up with me right now. We have the banner of heaven on our side.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, well, first of all, you need at least three more, but only one of them is college. You need that.

[Host]

And so there's something. But here's the thing again, just politically, there's something to all that. And here would be my political case and why I kind of fall down, I think, more meekly than that, on the side of accelerationism. If there's limp objection, I'm for meek accelerationism, which is like, I don't actually think the Democrats will get blamed. The Democrats will get blamed in D.C. and be blamed among super nerds. But if you are out there, a regular American, and fucking. The stock market is crashing. There's no real progress on any of the foreign stuff that Trump said that he was gonna make. The prices are higher. People are being fired all around you. You can't call for your Social Security help. You can't go to the national parks. I think that's. Are you gonna really blame the Democrat? And you're like, donald Trump is the president. I don't know what the cloture is like, Donald Trump said he'd fix everything. He's a deal maker. It's all fucking chaos. I think it hurts Trump.

[Sam Stein]

I don't disagree with that.

[Host]

I think it hurts Democrats among elite thinkers and fart sniffers on the Acela corridor. But I think it probably hurts Republicans everywhere else.

[Sam Stein]

I don't disagree that what you're describing here was popularized in the great 90s movie Speed. Okay, Shoot the hostage, Shoot the hostage. And in this case, and I don't literally mean shoot people.

[Host]

Sorry, Eagle. Ed Martin, if you're listening, this is a reference to the movie Speed.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, People in Canada, I know you're mad at me. In this case, the hostages, federal employees. And you've spent six weeks being like, how? What are you doing to our government? You're firing all these people. It's horrible. And then you turn around, you're like, sorry, but you gotta go. Because we need the chaos that's shooting the hostage. But in terms of like the politics, I actually think you're right. Which is. I mean, the real criticism of Trump right now is that everything is just so chaotic. And that just extends from the government to the economy to world fairs. And this doesn't help matters, but the hostage is pretty, pretty pricey.

[Host]

Yeah. All right, Simon. Now, I think it's tough. I think it's tougher than it seems.

[Sam Stein]

You want to raw dog this thing.

[Host]

Basically, I do want to raw dog this thing. And I got to tell you, it's interesting. It's not just one last thing on this because people are so fucking sick of culture. Duck, I'm sure listening, but I've spoken to two House Democrats who are like, not Tim, like, not like the flamethrowers. Like, listeners probably haven't even heard of either of them, honestly, normal, middle of the caucus House Democrats who are pretty, just institutionalist type people. And I put to both of them yesterday, what would you do if you're in the Senate? They're like, fuck it. No. And easy for them to say. But I'm just saying, I think that's telling you, if the voters are mad, there's frustration, not just among the voters, but.

[Sam Stein]

All right, you've talked me into it.

[Host]

Let's do it.

[Sam Stein]

Let's just do it.

[Host]

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[Sam Stein]

Buttigieg boys.

[Host]

Yeah, I don't remember.

[Sam Stein]

Let's coin that.

[Host]

The Buttigieg boys. Listening. Some news for you. Pete Buttigieg. Not in Michigan. There's an interesting though line and why in the Politico story, I can't remember the reporter that wrote that. But it wasn't exclusive and they wrote that it was based on a belief that it'd be exceedingly difficult to run successive campaigns in 2026 and 2028. What would the 2028 campaign be?

[Sam Stein]

So you're not supposed to admit that you're running for president like that in 2025. Isn't the rule that you can't, you know, show any ambition whatsoever?

[Host]

There are no rules anyway in Trump 2.0. Sam.

[Sam Stein]

So Pete's running for president. Gotcha.

[Host]

Seems like it seems like Pete's running For president. I'm just. I just, you know, we shouldn't do 2028 hot stove in March 2025. But. So I just want three sentences from you on his.

[Sam Stein]

We've had three 2020 hot stove items in the past 24 hours.

[Host]

What are the other ones? Rom and Bannon.

[Sam Stein]

And Bannon, Dan and Floyd. All three reported by Politico.

[Host]

Okay.

[Sam Stein]

Appropriate. I'm Brand. I worked for Politico.

[Host]

How many sentences? Two sentences on this. Is he viable as a 2028?

[Sam Stein]

God, do we really have to do sentences? The world is falling apart.

[Host]

I just want two sentences.

[Sam Stein]

Is he viable? Sure.

[Host]

Yeah. I don't know. I love. I love Pete.

[Sam Stein]

I like Pete. I think, you know, ultimately, really, who knows what the world looks like, but, you know, young, technocratic, smart, can talk.

[Host]

Yeah. Here's his big challenge over the next three years.

[Sam Stein]

He's gay.

[Host]

I don't know if that's a little bit of a challenge. We love and honor the gays here on this podcast. Of course, the main challenge is the Democrats big problem is with working class people, and people don't pay that close of attention to politics. Does being able to speak Norwegian help with those voters? I don't know. There was a gag. I forget who said it. It's like the old line in primary politics is there's always somebody in the beer lane and the wine lane, and Pete was run in the champagne lane. Highest education voters. And so the Democrats are struggling at the beer lane. I don't know. I think it's going to be tough to run for 2028.

[Sam Stein]

More of like a craft cocktail lane.

[Host]

You know, I love myself a craft cocktail. Exactly.

[Sam Stein]

Exactly. There it is.

[Host]

Who the hell knows?

[Sam Stein]

He's got the boulevardier crowd.

[Host]

All right. Who the hell knows what 2028 looks like? All right, we got to get serious. The. I've ignored the story this week to the dismay of some listeners. Yeah, too hot. Well, also, there's just fucking a lot happening. But I shouldn't have ignored it. JBL wrote a great triad on it, and that's the.

[Sam Stein]

Mona's got a great piece on it this morning.

[Host]

I'm about to read from it. Mahmoud Khalil. Am I pronouncing his name right? He's a prominent Palestinian activist. He was organizing one of the main Columbia University protests after Israel started attacking Gaza, after Hamas attacked Israel. He's in ICE detention facility right now in my home state of Louisiana, and he just had a procedural hearing in New York and the result was he's still in detention In Louisiana. Mona Charon writes this morning for the Bulwark. I think this sums up pretty good. This is the lead. Mahmoud Khalil could have been cooked up in a lab to offend, no worse, to disgust me. And yet, despite temptation, I cannot endorse what the Trump administration is doing to him. What do you think about what's happening with.

[Sam Stein]

I think Mona summarized it pretty well. I find myself increasingly disturbed by this story. The facts are Mahmoud Khalil is a green card holder. He's not a citizen, but he has some rights. His wife is a citizen. She's eight months pregnant. What was done to him actually is totally legal. Let's just. I've looked into this. No, no, I.

[Host]

There's totally legal, isn't it?

[Sam Stein]

No. The Secretary of State has incredible. And this is the problem. The problem is the law. The incredible. The Secretary has incredible discretion to do things like this. And I just want to be clear about that. Even though that is legal, as I read law, if you are not bothered by the idea that the government will come in to a college campus, detain someone for an association and speech they don't like, and then force deportation proceedings against that person, then frankly, you should not hold yourself up as someone who believes in free speech, because that is a very chilling use of government authority. The other side of it is that if you believe that Mahmoud Khalil is a despicable human being who shouldn't be having the associations he does with the, what is it, the Columbia University apartheid divest movement. If you believe that everything he stands for is abhorrent, maybe the worst thing to do is what you're doing right now, which is you're turning him into essentially a martyr. And the Trump administration is acting both grotesquely, in my opinion, and idiotically, because they're going to turn this guy into a martyr. And it betrays a sort of insecurity on their part, as I see it. Like, if you can't handle maybe a malice, a malice and an insecurity. If you can't handle this guy on a college campus and just like, figure out a way to just argue with him and make him insignificant, if you're threatened by this, then you're not as strong as you portrayed to be. So that's how I come down on this thing.

[Host]

I wanted to go to the law just. So here's the law for. With a green colored holder that says this. An alien whose presence or activities in the United States the Secretary of State has reasonable ground to believe would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States to be deported. It goes on to say though that they should not be deported for actions that would be lawful within the United States unless the Secretary of State personally determines that the aliens presence would compromise a compelling US foreign policy interest.

[Sam Stein]

That's it. I mean, if you read that, and again I've talked to some immigration people on this, it's so vague and it's so open ended that essentially Marco Robbi just needs to say I've made a determination. And in this case there was a lot of. Initially it was like, well, did ICE do this? And then they were like, no, no, no, no, no. Marco Rubio did this and they did that deliberately. And then on top of that, and I think you pointed this, they gave a quote to the Free Press. I want to say, where they're like, we didn't determine that he broke any laws.

[Host]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

And everyone's like, holy, like, what the. And it. And they didn't have to. They didn't have to. And the problem is that's a really dangerous law or lack of laws, I should say.

[Host]

No, I, I think it's, it's clearly grotesque, it's clearly chilling. It's also again, like the, these weren't active protest. Right. It also doesn't even make like, even if you agree, like even if we're in the middle of the, if you're in the middle of the Columbia protest, you're worried it's going to expand, you know what I mean? Like, but there's no fig leaf even here. Like this is like literally just, we are going to punish somebody. We want to send a signal that this type of speech is not welcome here. Right.

[Sam Stein]

You know, so the issue here is they had these encampments, they were intimidating Jewish students.

[Host]

Sure.

[Sam Stein]

And the university was not doing a good enough job making sure that those Jewish students didn't feel harassed or threatened. And I understand that there are multiple ways to effectuate a different outcome than to take someone literally off the campus and then move them across the country to a nice detention center just to say this.

[Host]

It's just ludicrous to send this fucking person to Louisiana to put them in an ICE detention center. Even if you agree, even if you're, you know, in the, in the whatever radical, if you're in the MAGA right wing of this and you're like, this guy should be kicked out, I'm very happy that he shouldn't have a green card anymore. Like putting him in an ICE detention center across the country is a ridiculous thing to do. And again, it's an effort to intimidate, it's an effort to silence, it's effort.

[Sam Stein]

To punish this person in police political action. Yeah, and I get it. And look, the thing is he's an easy target, right? Like you and I are probably on a 30 side of a 3070 issue because here's a guy who's saying things that are essentially sympathetic to the Hamas cause and I'm not sympathetic to Hamas, obviously this is a fight I'm sure they chose. But if you believe in free speech, the test of it is not in easy cases. The test of it is in hard cases. And you have to be willing to say this guy has abhorrent views. I disagree with them, I find them repulsive. He needs to be disciplined by the school. But he has the right to speech and he has the right to protest. And I will not impede on that Right. And what they've done is the exact opposite. They've used the instruments of the state to go onto a college campus, the so called campus culture warriors or anti campus cancel culture. And they've done gone and done it. And it's crazy to me. I've been heartened I guess by a few MAGA figures who've been like ah, this is too much like Ann Coulter. And well there might, yeah, she might have some different motivations.

[Host]

Yeah, that's true.

[Sam Stein]

She's not that great on the Jews.

[Host]

That's a good point.

[Sam Stein]

But yeah, but you know, and I think, but I, I'm more interested, I.

[Host]

Actually don't care about the MAGA figures. I'm more interested in the Rogans and my boy Theo von and like all the other free speech gut bros out in you California that were acting like the fact that they could not say faggots.

[Sam Stein]

Ben Shapiro made a big deal about getting protested at college campuses when he was invited to do speeches and how his speeches were canceled because the insecure, whatever you want to call them, students on the school didn't like hearing bad things from him. Where's he. Yeah, it goes both ways, buddy.

[Host]

And they all just acted like the biggest threat to free speech in the world is if a social media platform like deleted their post where they, you know, called somebody a fucking slur, right? Like that, like. And that was this big threat to free speech. This big threat to free speech. Like they couldn't post about their fucking horse pills that they pretended were fixing Covid. Nobody came to their door while their wife was pregnant and was like we're gonna take you away and Send you to Louisiana of all places. Of all fucking places. Like, nobody did that to any. Like the Biden administration with which their great crime was like some mid level Biden staff are emailing Facebook, being like, could you kindly take down this post that has totally wrong information about COVID That was the threat to free speech that like caused this entire movement of supposed free speech warriors to like rise up and pro and, and, and Mark Zuckerberg is in the White House. This is a new era of free speech. Meanwhile, Mark Zuckerberg's fucking cutting deals with the Chinese and not saying a damn thing about this guy that's in prison. So anyway, I actually, just to be candid, just to close the loop on this, I have no idea what this person has actually said, so I don't really want to weigh in on like what kind of person he is. The protests like that he was organizing had some signs and had some people involved in them that were fucking despicable. So I don't know, but it doesn't. I guess my point is it doesn't matter. At least with regards to the detention of this person.

[Sam Stein]

I would say, the only thing I would say is if you believed that he was materially supporting Hamas, for instance, or that he was pushing her, then bring it up in a different venue and file some sort of lawsuit against the guy for supporting terrorism. That do that?

[Host]

Yeah, if they have, if, you know, whatever, if there's some evidence that he was communicating with organizers on the ground in Gaza, like charge him or then just strip his green card. Right. Like, I'm again, the one area where this is, like, there really isn't any area where this is gray. But like the, the one area that makes it complicated is that again, he's like born in Syria, He's a Syrian, Palestinian, Algerian citizen. The British gave him security clearance for some reason, I couldn't quite figure out why. And so it's like, okay, if you have somebody like that that has a green card that's here legally that is communicating with a foreign terrorist group, and like the foreign terrorist group wants him to do the protests here and wants them to be, you know, violent or whatever, you know, because they think that helps their PR aims, then fucking take his green card and he can go home to, to Syria or Algeria, wherever he lived most recently, I would be totally fine with that. That is not what this is.

[Sam Stein]

No. And they've not, they're not asserting that. And that's the issue that people have, is that if you have something that you can charge them with. Then charge them with it. But they haven't.

[Host]

I wanted. We walked into the office this morning and you know, it's a Sarah Longwell office. When at the front, at the front, there, there's a Wall Street Journal just kind of sitting there.

[Sam Stein]

Okay.

[Host]

Free Wall Street Journal at the front.

[Sam Stein]

Wow.

[Host]

So I picked that up, looked at a couple headlines. CEO frustrations with Trump over trade mount in private.

[Sam Stein]

In private.

[Host]

Here's another. Here's another one. American consumers have had a lot to fret about so far this year between never ending tariff headlines, stubborn inflation, and fresh fears about a recession. These concerns seem to be hitting spending by both rich and poor across necessities and luxuries all at once. So consumer confidence is down, consumer spending is down, CEO frustrations are up. In private. Seems bad.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Host]

Depending on how you look at it.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

Shoot the eyes. Accelerationism.

[Sam Stein]

It's not good, but it's sort of like, hilarious to me in a sick, twisted way that they're befuddled that this.

[Host]

Could possibly happen in the world happened to happen.

[Sam Stein]

You're doing the tariffs. I didn't expect the tariffs.

[Host]

The man that bankrupted 13 companies is bankrupting America.

[Sam Stein]

Yes. I.

[Host]

What?

[Sam Stein]

You didn't say anything about tariffs. And then he's so. It's so chaotic. Every day is like a different. And it's not. He's treating it like a reality show. And I know Howard Lutnick's out there, like the sort of emcee of the reality show tune in next week, but it's not fun or productive or really particularly good for the country. And you've made this point, and I think it's the right one, which is like, if the tariffs were so fucking good, do them, like, just let them go. Let it rip. Why do we keep pulling back? Like, let's just let it rip.

[Host]

We have kind of a lot of them out there. It's been so chaotic, I can't keep track of them. I know. It's hard to keep track of which.

[Sam Stein]

Ones have we put. Are we tariffing?

[Host]

We're tariffing Europe.

[Sam Stein]

Okay. Yeah.

[Host]

On steel and aluminum. Good. And they're terrifying us back. Good. We have tariffs on China, which is kind of a bipartisan issue, but that is. But here's the thing. The rate, it's at a higher number than during the Trump first term. But we kept the tariffs from the Trump first term because Biden didn't get rid of them. And now we've added on top of that 20% tariff, which is greater than the one from the first term. So very significant tariffs on China, some on the eu and a lot of uncertainty with the Canada, Mexico stuff. I don't know.

[Sam Stein]

I say go further. Let's just terrify. I do too.

[Host]

And he's fucking backed into a corner. My favorite story about all this so far has been Jamie Dimon. Yeah, Jamie Dimon. Oh, I hate these fucking guys so much. These guys, these guys. I hate them worse than the MAGA people. Okay, give me, give me, give me 435. Steve Bannon's in the Congress over, over one Jamie Diamond.

[Sam Stein]

You have a soft spot for banning, though.

[Host]

Sure, that's a good point. Give me 435. Candace. Oh, no.

[Sam Stein]

Okay.

[Host]

I gotta think about who it would be. All right, maybe not. But at least the MAGA people are genuine. Diamond. This has kind of gotten missed because Dimon's suck up to the Trump administration was not quite as totally fawning as all the tech bros. But sometime in January, after the inauguration, he's like, everybody's gotta calm down about the tariff stuff. He did a whole week. Scott Besant's in there. People need to chill out. The economy did great the first time under Trump. America is resilient. We got all of this. Like, this is. We're in good hands here. Everybody calm down. It was yesterday, I believe, or maybe two days ago during the earnings call. Diamond's like, we're seeing some very. We're seeing some pretty big issues with the tariffs as far as, like, the impact on the. On the business. And the banking sector is going to be the one that gets hit the worst. And, you know, from an accelerationism perspective. Don't hate it.

[Sam Stein]

Let it rip. Scott Besson didn't stop all this.

[Host]

Scott Besson is a disaster.

[Sam Stein]

I'm amazed at how ineffectual the person that is. Yeah, I know you.

[Host]

And the missus. Bring them back.

[Sam Stein]

I forgot her name.

[Host]

Barry. What was her name? Louise Linton. Bring back Louise. What's she up to?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, they're going to Fort Knox to check the gold. She was there.

[Host]

The white gloves, holding the money.

[Sam Stein]

I miss him.

[Host]

Bring back Louis Linden. Mnuchin was pretty good. Okay. I do have sympathy for the public sector employees. I want to grab you. You started a tip line for us, and I want to just get some. What you've been hearing on the tip line for people, though, that were not aware of the tip line. What is it again?

[Sam Stein]

Oh, God, the book.

[Host]

Dot com tips. Yeah, the tips. I knew that. I was just setting you up. I forget it every time. And We've been hearing from a lot of public sector employees and also private sector employees whose. Whose businesses are being affected by this, you know, because we live in a fucking complex economy these days. You know, it's not. We can't roll things back to the 1850s.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, the Puma thing was really a telling thing. And just so people understand, Puma, the. The shoe wear, athletic wear company cutting 500 jobs globally. And one of the decks that we saw for the reasons why had to do with what they called Hispanic hibernation. Just basically Hispanics completely freaked out about the deportations and literally not going out and walking around and shopping. And that was what they said. The tip line's been really.

[Host]

Also the tariffs they mentioned.

[Sam Stein]

They did mention the tariffs. Yeah. That goes without saying. The tip line's been really incredible. And for those who've written in, thank you, you've helped us tell some really good stories. Look, I think the 30,000 foot takeaway from the tip line is this. There's been an incredible trauma inflicted upon people. And every day we get stories of, like, really tragic stories, honestly, of people being like, you know, I'm a vet. I've worked for, you know, the Department of veteran affairs or DoD or whatever for, you know, two decades. My wife's also a government employee. She's a park ranger or whatever. We both lost our jobs and, like, what am I gonna do? What can I do? Like, there's no recourse. It was just that then we get, like, the ridiculous stuff, which is like, we got a tip the other day. I was like, here's a memo that Pam Bondi just issued. This is a real thing. It was like. It was a memo. It was like, from the desk of the Attorney General. And people got. Were like, oh, boy, this has gotta be serious. And it was like, you know, following President Trump's bold action, we will be outlawing paper straws at the doj. I was like, are you fucking.

[Host]

No. No. It announced their new task force. Just Doge. Oh, yeah, just Doge.

[Sam Stein]

That was one that came in yesterday. It was like, we are. We are working with Doge, and we've created a task force, Justice Doge, but we're calling it Just Doge. And the person who sent me is like, these fucking clowns. Like, they must spend so much time on this.

[Host]

You've also gotten a lot from, like, the research community, because that's a lot. That's a little less of a one to one than somebody who's losing their. But it's like, you know, man, if you're doing research for.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, this is tragic. Yeah. I mean, basically people who either work at NIH or at universities who depend on NIH funding. And it is just like the pullback is unreal. And we're gonna. This is one of those things where, you know, it's happening, but like five years down the line it's gonna be really apparent because universities have basically stopped hiring big ones because they just don't know if these indirect cost caps are gonna come in. And then the NIH people are hiring basically being forced to wait on whether their research grants are going to be even considered because there's been a communication pause. So we get these tips and it's like people are just saying, there's supposed to be a review session for my grant. It just got canceled. Check out this website. And I don't know if I can just subsist on no money for the next three months until they consider it. These are the best and the brightest in our country trying to do great scientific research. They need the federal government because the private sector won't fund this type of stuff. It's long shot success rates but. But important to take those shots. And they're just gonna have to figure out whether to even leave the field or try to find some other country that might fund them.

[Host]

Yeah. I had two tips recently. One came from the tip line, which I have to anonymize. But they were doing healthy growing of local produce and no pesticides, all that sort of stuff, and selling it to the schools. Part of a program where instead of getting your fruits and veggies from some fucking big truck that comes from the other side of country, it's like a local farmer does it. You would think this would be in the Maha.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, it's very wheelhouse. Yeah.

[Host]

This would be about as Maha as you get.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Host]

But no, no. Maha is going to steak and shake and having beef tallow fries and a Coke while we cut the funding for the dudes and dudettes that are. That are growing organic produce and giving it to the school children. That's what they're doing. That's number one. Number two is.

[Sam Stein]

That's incredible. That's so stupid. Why are we doing that?

[Host]

It's so stupid. Here's the other one. This was not from the tip line. This was from. I'm just gonna. You're gonna laugh at me. This was unintentional. I was being unintentional. I did not mean to be nosy. Everybody has to be careful on a plane. I'm on the plane here last night listening to you. I'm sitting next to a guy listening to Bannon, listening to Patrick bet David. And I turn left and I look at this guy like that. His computer. I didn't mean to read his computer, but the word MAGA just jumped out at me. And so I was like, okay. So I did the thing you're not supposed to do, which is like, I read the text that he was sending on this computer, and it was some guy that works for an organization coming to D.C. to beg for money. And the text said, basically. I mean, I didn't quote it because I didn't ask permission to look at his computer, but it was essentially, I found a woman that works for us with a Southern accent who I think will better appeal to the MAGA types that we're gonna need to convince to give us the funding. And it's just like, this shit is happening everywhere. You know what I mean? Like, that is. That is dystopia.

[Sam Stein]

That's like dystopia. She fits the part.

[Host]

She fits the part. We found a blonde from Alabama. Speaking of Alabama, I told people that we'd have fun at the end. That wasn't fun with the podcast.

[Sam Stein]

We're not done.

[Host]

Real fun. Oh, no, we're not. We've got.

[Sam Stein]

Wait, can I just say about Steak N Shake?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

We hired Will Sommer. If people don't know Will, he's great. He has.

[Host]

He's on the pod this week.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. He was on Tuesday's pod.

[Host]

Don't pretend like you.

[Sam Stein]

I saw a clip of him. He's got a hilarious Steak and Shake story coming for Friday's morning shots. It's so good. I can't give it all away, but it's really Good.

[Host]

Subscribe to ward.com we got some new Steak and Shake content. This has been brutal. Since you didn't listen to Tuesday's pod, I can repeat it to you. This has been brutal for me because I grew up in St. Louis, moved to Denver in middle school. Steak n Shake was like our celebratory meal. And I got a good report card. Not really, but still, I have these nostalgic memories.

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[Host]

Okay, fine. We gotta close the pod. I'm in trouble. We're gonna be late. We have a potpourri of Tommy Tuberville clips.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, yes.

[Host]

Okay, we're gonna listen to three. Tommy Tuberville, your ball coach. Yeah. All of them are from yesterday.

[Sam Stein]

Okay.

[Host]

This is just three clubs from a single interview. I mean, this guy's touching all the.

[Sam Stein]

Bases before you did before. I'm excited for this, but what you should have done is you should have just read it to me and said, guess the real Tommy Tubervillian.

[Host]

No, we are gonna respond to each. We're gonna do one at a time and do a brief reaction to each clip. And then I'm gonna have which one's best to worst. Are the most timey to the least timey.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, Most to the least.

[Host]

Okay, let's do it.

[Tommy Tuberville]

But when it comes to protesters, we gotta make sure we treat all of them the same. Send them to jail. Free speech is great, but hateful. Hate. Free speech is not what we need in these universities. And they don't need to be doing things that they're preaching from Hamas about. Anti Semitism.

[Host]

We gotta treat all protesters the same. Send them to jail. Send them to jail. Jail.

[Sam Stein]

Send them to jail.

[Host]

Send them all to jail. All right, and then the next sentence, the next thing is, I was leaving. Free speech. Do you know what words mean? Words have meaning. Antonin Scalia wrote about this. This is when conservatives were conservative. Words have meaning.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Okay, let's play the second one. I'm gonna rank these. Send to jail is a great line.

[Tommy Tuberville]

People don't realize and understand is every state has their own Department of Education. It's not like we're not gonna have Department of Education, but every state. You know, I'm from the South. We have a different way of life in terms of education. We educate our kids in different curriculums. Everybody should do their own thing.

[Host]

Okay, now, I just. To put a finer point on that one. In the south, we educate our kids on different curriculums. Everybody should do their own thing. There's a generous way to interpret that, and then there'd be a less generous, very ungenerous way. There'd be a very ungenerous way about the different groups. Groups that get educated in different.

[Sam Stein]

We have different curriculums for different people.

[Host]

Tommy, in the South. So that's. That's the education plan. Let's listen to number three and Trump's tariffs making America great again. It's a great strategy. Is somebody's finally doing something out of the White House. President Trump, that is. That says you have to take an action in a tariff.

[Sam Stein]

Is that an eagle?

[Tommy Tuberville]

Yeah. No pain, no gain. That's what we used to tell our football players. There's going to be some pain with tariffs. But tariffs got us back as the strongest economy in the world when President Trump was in the first time. He knows what he's doing.

[Host]

No pain, no gain. He knows what he's doing. Does he know what he's doing? I don't think so. I don't think he knows what he's doing. Sam, what do you think the most?

[Sam Stein]

Tommy? The most. Tommy's obviously sent him all the jail. You can't really top that. The no pain, no gain.

[Host]

That's Auburn, Tommy.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, that's real. No pain, no gain is so cliched. I gotta go. I gotta think. That's a lot.

[Host]

Separate but equal schools.

[Sam Stein]

Separate but equal schools. We had it really good back in the 50s when we had our own curriculums. Yeah, that was real. That's real south town right there. This guy, he's sort of a gem in a way, but not maybe meant for the Senate.

[Host]

I mean, send them all to jail would have been a more funny and less alarming quote if it wasn't for the fact that we're sending protesters to jail.

[Sam Stein]

But he's not enough. We gotta treat them all equally. Send them all to jail.

[Host]

I hope that Glenn Greenwald, I'm sure.

[Sam Stein]

I think Tommy also probably appreciated the J6 pardons too. Send those people back from jail.

[Host]

I hope the Glenn Greenwalds and the other big free speech warriors are happy about what they got, what they signed up for. Who could have predicted this last thing? Yeah, that was supposed to be the last thing. But you, you're in real time with Bill Moore this weekend. I am big. Have you bet on it before? You have how many Times you haven't watched Tim. I don't know.

[Sam Stein]

Well, this makes up for me not seeing him.

[Host]

Okay. How many times have you been on?

[Sam Stein]

This will be my fourth.

[Host]

Fourth time. How'd you. How'd you do the other three times?

[Sam Stein]

First time I was super nervous. It's nervous. It's nerve wracking. And. And it showed.

[Host]

I do kind of have a memory of a sweaty Sam.

[Sam Stein]

Sweaty boy. Bill. I was like working on my jokes. Didn't really land. And then the second and third time was. Was good. Like, actually one of the times I was on with Bill Crystal and I think that was the second time. And I. And we came out there and Bill Maher was doing this big dialogue about Dick Cheney and how terrible Dick Cheney was. And then he came to the panel and I was like, you know, that really hurt Bill Crystal's feelings. And we went from there. I don't know if Bill Kristol remembers that. And then the third time there was this weird joke. And I remember this very well. He had some monologue about how a bee ejaculating into a flower and it was just grotesque. And we just kind of ruminated on that for a while. And I was like, this show's different.

[Host]

It's a different show. It's hard to prepare for. You have. You're gonna have a big job, though. Not to put any pressure on you for number four. Yeah. Because Bill and your co. Panelist Batya. Batya Bhatia is. These are very. These are people that. Speaking of free speech. Well, we're gonna be talking about big free speech advocate. Batia was a Trump supporter and a big free speech advocate. There were basically two things that really motivated Bat. She is upset about the Democrats assault on free speech. And she also thinks that the elite Democrats just don't care about the working man anymore. Do not care about the working people. And so, you know, you're sometimes. Sometimes you play it a little cool for school, but you've got to kind of. You gotta kind of buck up here because you gotta fucking. You gotta go to. You gotta go to war. It's like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Well, how's the working man? How's the fucking. How's the fucking working man's president? How's the free speech president doing? Bacha. How's the working man? Free speech president? Is the. Are people's paychecks going further? Are we building things here?

[Sam Stein]

You want me to adopt.

[Host]

Are we.

[Sam Stein]

You want me to adopt your personality for Bill Maher?

[Host]

No, I just want you to I.

[Sam Stein]

Just want you to have a little more Verve punch.

[Host]

Yeah. I just want you to take it to.

[Sam Stein]

I have my own ways of doing these things.

[Host]

Okay. Have you prepped any law. Do you want to rhyme any lines right now?

[Sam Stein]

I was told there's a piece of advice that someone told me, which is if you prep lines for that show, you'll fail. It's terrible.

[Host]

Yeah. Okay. All right. So we're gonna do one role play then. Okay. I'm bacha.

[Sam Stein]

You're bacha.

[Host]

Sam. These liberal elites, they just don't get it. They just don't get it. All they care about now, it's just the deep state. It's Washington, D.C. washington D.C. is where all the money is. The richest people in the world are all in McLean, and they're all out there and they're all going to each other's parties drinking cosmos, and they don't care about real people anymore.

[Sam Stein]

Correct.

[Host]

You better do better than that. You better do better than that. Sam Stein. Everybody else, what day is today? It's Thursday. I gotta do this podcast again tomorrow. Oh, it might be out a little late tomorrow because my daughter is Hermes in the school play.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, nice.

[Host]

So we'll be taping the play or I'll be going to the play. I was running lines with her just like I was with you. She did better than you.

[Sam Stein]

I hope so.

[Host]

And she was a little, you know, there's a little timidity, and I'm trying to turn her into the biggest ham in the play.

[Sam Stein]

That's gonna be amazing.

[Host]

So we'll see how it goes.

[Sam Stein]

Congratulations.

[Host]

Thanks so much. Everybody else, come stick around. If it's a little late tomorrow, that's okay. You can wait an hour for me. Up next in segment two, we got Congressman Jimmy Gomez from California. Stick around for that.

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[Host]

He's representing California's 34th district on the east side of LA. It's Congressman Jimmy Gomez. Good to meet you. How you doing, Congressman?

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

Nice to meet you. I'm doing well.

[Host]

You know, I've noticed on social media you've been getting a little spicy out there, and I'm looking for more spice from the Dems. And so I'm just wondering, biggest picture, what's your take on the kind of best messaging and strategy right now for the party pushing back on Trump and Musk?

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

I think the best messaging is an economic message. This guy is making things more expensive out across the country when it comes to grocery prices, when it comes to housing prices, when it comes to anything you can think of, he's just making it worse. So I think we need to stick to that message. This is a guy who said he was going to lower grocery prices on day one, and he hasn't done that. He's actually made things worse. So I tell people, you got to focus on where people are at, and that's that people are still struggling inflation prices, although they were reported that they came in lower. But people don't have confidence. That's why consumer confidence is down. Prices are up. The economic outlook is you're seeing a big flashing red light of a potential recession. So we got to talk about where people are at. That's groceries, that's childcare. That's just the bread and butter stuff. And we have to stay focused right now. People are all over the place, but we always have to take it back to an economic message, plain and simple. And people are pissed because if you're working multiple jobs to make ends meet and this guy is making it harder, of course they're gonna be angry because there's uncertainty. They're scared. They have to take care of their kids, they have to take care of their parents. So, so, economic message all the way.

[Host]

I'm with you on an economic message being powerful and compelling. And frankly, it was an issue for the Dems in the last election. That said, sometimes it's hard to break through, right? Just like talking about kitchen table issues. So, I mean, how can you talk about it in a way that gets through to people? Is it a contrast with musk, is it? I don't know. You tell me.

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

Yeah, partly. First is Democrats have to be relatable, right? People have to know you're a person.

[Host]

Are you a person?

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

I'm a person and I'm a working class person. You know, my background is, you know, kid of immigrants, went to a community college, work shitty jobs, you know, all that. People have to feel that. And I've been recording on social media more videos about just grocery shopping because I help with the grocery shopping every week to show people, hey, I know what's going on because I see it every day. I don't have to read the statistics. I don't have to read the economic indicators. I can tell you because I see people in the grocery store, look, comparison shopping, you know, look, oh, is this cheaper or is this cheaper? How can I make the dollar stretch? And Democrats are sometimes terrible at really kind of being relatable. And that's where people need to focus. And then. But here's the thing. Be authentic. Like, if you're not comfortable doing the Kendrick Lamar viral dance, don't do it. If you're a bookworm, be the bookworm. If you're like, you know, if you're the person that throws the F bomb once in a while, do that. But be relatable, especially when it comes to how working people are struggling to get by. And that breaks through.

[Host]

Yeah. What were the shitty jobs you did?

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

What didn't I do when I was growing up? I had a couple paper routes. Who didn't, though? I mowed lawns in high school. I worked at a grocery store, and I was handed, like their, like, they handed me to the meat department to clean up the meat department. So one of my jobs was to break down all the equipment, scrape all the beef and all the meat and put it into. Scrape it into these big, giant bone barrels. And then these bone barrels were sold to. I don't know if it was hot dog companies or dog. They're sold to somebody, but it's just all the scraps of the meat. And then I would spray everything down. So every day I would leave smelling like, you know, hot putrid beef. So that was one of my terrible jokes.

[Host]

Enough to make me a vegetarian there. Congressman. What? Back to the Elon thing in the contrast, and I do think I hear you on the kitchen table stuff. They're giving you a lot of opportunity by the fact that Trump's selling the richest man in the world's car on the lawn there. They want to extend the tax cuts for People, even if they're making a billion dollars, is there either a policy or just rhetorical contrast there, you know, with using Elon as a peg?

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

Oh, no, there's a huge contrast. And that's kind of what we have to talk about it, make it relatable, though, and then talk about policy. Because if they can't relate to you, they close down. The public closes their ears, they don't want to pay attention. If they feel like, oh, you get it, then you can talk about that. And there's a huge contrast, right? The tax cuts that they want to give to the billionaires and the ultra wealthy at the expense of Medicaid and healthcare and food assistance, that kind of stuff. Oh, yeah, And Trump, when it comes to only listening to people who are billionaires, right, he doesn't listen to the person on the street. He listens to the CEO of a car company who tells him, hey, you're going to cost this $20 billion over 10 years if you go along with these tariffs. So that's the contrast, that he doesn't listen to the average person or the working man and woman. He listens to the billionaires and then it doesn't matter if he even goes against his own values. You brought up selling the Teslas on the White House lawn. Who do they think buys Teslas? It's not the drill baby, drill crowd or the MAGA crowd. It's the left. Who cares about climate change. It is insane about everything, kind of he's doing. But the contrast is there. It's a billionaire establishment that's taking root in D.C. and the people that are going to pay for it are doctors, firefighters, working men and women, people that clean your streets, take care of your kids. So we got to make it stick, but we also have to meet people where they're at.

[Host]

You said this about the budget you voted against. So we're taping this on Wednesday because I'm headed to D.C. so some of the Senate budget negotiations might have changed by the time this airs Thursday, but. But you wrote House Republicans temporary funding bill hurts the economy, veterans, families, and gives Trump and Elon unchecked power to impose dumb tariffs, raising prices for everyone. I'm a no. Obviously. This passed with only one Democratic vote. This heads to the Senate because of the way the Senate works. They're going to need seven Democrats if they want to pass it. What do you say to your colleagues in the Senate as they're looking at this shit sandwich that they sent across Capitol Hill?

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

They got a man up, right? Stop. Just Talking the talk about, oh, I'm going to oppose Musk and Trump. The way you do it is do you vote no or not? Do you actually like use the only power you have? We all know that the Senate is a super majority and they need 2/3 vote. So if those senators capitulate, they're setting also they're not only continuing some of these cuts that are going to occur because of the cross, but they're setting up the long play for the Republicans to pass their massive tax cut. That's what it's about. Their number one priority is a massive tax cut that cuts taxes for the rich, the ultra wealthy, the billionaires, the corporations, while gutting a lot of our programs that people rely on. This CR sets up that play and if they don't like stop them now, it makes it easier for them to score a touchdown against the American people.

[Host]

What do you say to the Democrats and others like, you know, watchers that are, that are worried about this, that say that if the Democrats oppose this in the Senate leads to a government shutdown that allows Elon Musk and Russ vote to continue to run roughshod over the government and the government shutdown, it's going to cause real pain for people. Maybe the Democrats take some blame. I wouldn't give the Democrats any blame, but unfortunately the Bulwark podcast doesn't get to decide who's to blame. There are other, there are other people out there. So what do you say to people that are worried about that, about both the real pain that a shutdown would cost and also the political pain potentially for Democrats.

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

These are legislative terrorists and when you give them to them once, they're going to keep doing it over and over and over again. The ransom right now is you don't do what we say and cut this funding, we're going to shut down the government. Right. But that ransom gets higher and higher and higher. And in order to basically break that, you have to show them that, that if they want to pass it, they have to do it on their own votes. And if they can't do it on their own votes, especially when it comes to the Senate, they have to negotiate. But this is for a long term direction of our country and if we don't stop them now, it gets harder and harder down the line.

[Host]

I'm with you on that. I don't know though. I think that there's going to be some weak knees over there in the Senate. We'll see how it goes.

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

It is the Senate.

[Host]

I wanted to ask you about Democrats Struggles with Hispanic voters in particular, but also Asian voters. Your district is huge majority Hispanic and Asian voters. I think it's only like 10% white voters. Harris lost 13 points versus Biden on net in your district. Obviously she still won overwhelmingly. It's la, but that's a huge drop. And if you kind of project that out across the country, it explains a lot of why Trump won. And I think that's a big red flag for Democrats. I mean, I hear what you say about being relatable, but are there policy things. You're in the district. What is it that would have caused the Democrats to lose such ground with mostly Hispanic, Asian and other voters of color?

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

Great question one. This has been occurring over numerous cycles. I know my consultant and different people and including myself, try to warn the Democratic Party, you're losing Latinos, you're losing minorities, you need to start talking about these issues. But people always think, oh, they're part of our base, they're part of our base. But when you stop talking to people about the issues that are first and foremost on their mind, you lose them. And when it comes to Latinos, when it comes to, I would say even working class whites is a lot about affordability. We wouldn't really do anything when it came to housing issues. We weren't doing anything to childcare. And that's what they care about. They care about, like, these folks. I would have consultants at the same time show me polling and they're like, hey, Latinos care about climate change. Then I would have to be reminded, well, yes, they care about climate change and they're glad we're doing it. But it's not the main issue that they're gonna vote on.

[Host]

Not if it means they're paying 20 more bucks at the pump every time they go, yeah, exactly.

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

Like, so it's like, I've had this discussion with consultants. Oh, they clear about pro choice. So we're just going to do one message about being pro choice. And I'm like, yes, but their first issue is, my kid is not going to be able to buy a house in the same community that I live in. We can't afford rent, we're barely making it. Especially when it comes to groceries. You have to talk about issues that they care about first. Right. And it's not saying that they don't care about the environment. Latinos are some of the most pro environment people around. Right. You know they have a sour cream jar with chili in it, right? They use this, they use stuff over and over and over again. It's in our nature when it comes to being pro environment. But when people are struggling and you're not talking about that, that's when you lose them. And that's where I'm like, like, you can do it all. You can still fight for the environment, protect a women's right to choose. But when you talk to the Latino community or communities are struggling, you got to say, okay, what's the issue that's first and foremost on your mind? It's a hierarchy of need, right? It's like if I, like, if I can't afford food, I don't have a place to live, then like this other stuff, you know, I can't focus on that. So that, you know, the policies that I want to do, housing and child care, these two pillars, and economists have said that they're costing so much that they're bending down the GDP growth of our economy. Right? It's bending it down. This was last year. Trump is now doing more damage than those costs. But if you want to kind of tackle the economy and affordable issues, you got to do that. Housing is now. Americans are rent burdened across the board. 30 of income towards rent, child care 26% and this is based on a pre tax income. So you have 60% of a family's income going to two things. Well, shit, no wonder why they can't get by. So we have to have an agenda that meets the moment. And that agenda is creating a housing boom that we haven't seen since World War II when the troops were coming home. We're building too slow, too small and too expensive. We got to break out of that. So we got to tackle these problems at the federal level, but we also have to tackle it in the blue cities and the blue states that make building and construction too slow, too small and too expensive. So we have to provide that message because people care about housing and they care about raising their kids. And guess where most of working class people have their wealth? In their home.

[Host]

You're speaking my language on this stuff. I mean, I'm hooting you from the cheap seats on getting rid of red tape, making it easier to build, building more. I'm with you on all that and I think that makes a big difference. There are other folks out there though that would say that, sure, the economic stuff has hurt Democrats, but also some of these cultural issues. The Democrats went a little overboard on the left, whether it's immigration, whether it's crime, whether it's lgbtq. I mean, I'm gay. I'm with the Democrats on most of these issues, maybe not all of them. Some of the crime stuff got a little kooky. But what do you say to that? That maybe it's. That it's less about the economic stuff and more about some of the cultural issues. Where Democrats maybe got a little out of step with some of the working class voters.

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

No. When it comes to LGBT issues, like, for me, it's personal. I have a gay brother. He came out. My mom was not hardcore Catholic. Wasn't very accepting time. Now she stays the night over at their house, right? So it's kind of like people can change, but when people are suffering economically, the cultural arguments become more relevant. When they're not suffering economically, they become less relevant. And at the same time, I would say in the Latino community, almost like somebody always has a gay uncle somewhere, right? My brother included, they are a welcoming community. But when you talk to that Latino community, talk to these other communities, you have to focus on the issues that are first and foremost on their mind. Mine, right? My mom, she's hardcore Catholic. She's for choice because she. She remembers when, in the 70s, when I was born and my brother was born before Roe, the doctor had to ask your husband's permission if you can get your tubes tied right? Like, they get that kind of stuff. The issues regarding cultural issues become more relevant when people are suffering economically. No one's doing anything about it.

[Sam Stein]

It.

[Host]

The fires. I mean, your district kind of is adjacent to Glendale up there. I'm just kind of curious how you assess what, how the recovery is going and, you know, whether you think. How you kind of score out the blame game here as everybody's trying to figure out, you know, how the. How this got so out of hand.

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

There's recovery going on, but the devastation was severe. Like, I've never seen anything. I took a tour of Altadena. I didn't because it's the closest close to my district when it comes to the. The blame, like, oh, we got to just be sober about kind of what happened and how to fix the limit, you know, the problems. Right. Was it not enough firefighters? Was it not enough water? Was it a. Not like what happened and. Or was like, that's we can do better, right? It's not don't blame learn. Let's learn about the mistakes that occurred. And I would say that's just across the board when it comes to governing in Democratic cities and Democratic states. Like, government has to work. Government has to work. If you want to continue to push progressive policies. If you flip on the switch of your light and your light doesn't come on, or you turn the faucet and the water doesn't come out. Well, you think people are going to care that you're combining climate change? No. So good governance allows you to be more progressive. It allows you to take bolder chances on these climate change policies, social policies. But if all of a sudden shit's a train wreck, right? If it's like if they see their neighborhoods are less safe, they're dirtier. People don't think that necessarily the firefighters or the police officers or the water is going to get. Is going to work when you want it to. You have bigger problems. So the way I kind of see it, and this is what I've been, We need to restore people's faith that government can work, because government oftentimes is the only way you can solve certain problems. I can't afford my own fire department or police department or sanitation department or school district. What I have to. What most people have to do, we come together to form a government that works, right? So it's counterintuitive, but we, like people definitely need to refocus. Refocus on making stuff work. And then also is it affordable, Is it reliable? That's first and foremost.

[Host]

All right, lastly, I'm annoyed you got Luca. Just wondering what the vibes are like for the, for the Lakers fans out there. I'm a Nuggets man. We have beat you multiple playoffs in a row now. So I'm not. Not scared about it, but I'm fucking annoyed. So I'm just wondering what the lake, you seeing more jerseys out there. What's the. What are the vibes like?

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

No, people were excited about Luca. I think that can caught a lot of people by surprise. So I'm kind of like the home of a lot of the teams in la. I have in downtown. You have the Lakers, the Kings. You also have the. I have Dodger Stadium. So this might be the goal. The real golden era of sports in la. But I'm excited about Luka. Dodgers are looking great. I'm like talking trash to Yankee fans. People complain that we're buying our way to the World Series. I'm okay with that.

[Host]

I mean, you kind of are. You're a capitalist. They say the Democrats are socialists. You're a capitalist, man. If we get a World Series and if money can do it, you'll do it. I like competition.

[Congressman Jimmy Gomez]

Winning is good. If you win, you can get to do more things. It's a. It's something that applies to sports as it applies to politics when you're hot, bit big when you're cool, pull back. And we need to get in on a hot streak. So that's what I'm pushing. But yeah, my Dodgers, the Lakers, and then I think my, my wife was telling me that we just required somebody for the, the Rams. That's looking good. So we're looking good.

[Host]

All right. Well, winning is good. Nuggets will see in the playoffs again this year. Nuggets in five. It'll be, it'll be painful, but unfortunately, Luke will be there for a decade, so probably get us once. Thanks so much. Good to meet you. Congressman Jimmy Gomez. Really appreciate it. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Blog podcast. See y'all then. Peace.

[Musical Guest]

Stuck in the shade where there's no sunshine I don't want to play with the mother Kids in the sun.

[Host]

It'S.

[Musical Guest]

Been a long way down yeah, you let me bab it's been a long way but you don't know I hurt you Ignorance is bliss I'm a happy idiot Waving at cars I'm going to make my end to the wall Till I feel like nothing at all I'm a happy to keep my mind on you and I've lost my mind I don't want to stay where the place oh my since you let me fade it's been a long way down yeah, you like me, baby? It's been a long way down so I shut it off so I shut it all off so I shut it off so I shut it all off down but you don't know what I'm a happy idiot Waving at cars I'm going to make my.

[Host]

The board podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.