Sam Stein: This Is the Country They Want

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: "Sam Stein: This Is the Country They Want"
Release Date: July 3, 2025

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Introduction and Guest

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller welcomes Sam Stein as an emergency substitute guest due to the absence of their favorite guest. Stein, the managing editor of The Bulwark and editor of Bill Kristol's Morning Shots newsletter, shares his reflections on his role and the evolution of his relationship with Kristol.

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Key Political News and Reactions

The discussion kicks off with timely political news:

• Diddy’s Acquittal: The episode opens with the news that rapper Diddy was acquitted of racketeering and sex trafficking charges. Tim mentions, "[Sam] was staying up to watch it," highlighting the significance of this event (02:00).

• Republican House Members’ Stance: Republicans initially show resistance to a crucial vote regarding a bill, with figures like Mike Johnson expressing a firm stance: "We are going to hold out on this vote for the rule to proceed" (06:01). However, ultimately, all members yielded, allowing the bill to pass.

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Analysis of Republican Behaviors and Legislative Process

Stein and Miller delve into the inconsistency within Republican actions:

• Red Lines and Broken Promises: Stein criticizes Republicans for setting “red lines” that they ultimately ignore, exemplified by representatives like Don Bacon and David Valadao. He states, “They just continue to draw lines in the sand that they know they're just going to flagrantly violate” (07:27).

• Case Study: Brian Fitzpatrick: Stein highlights Representative Brian Fitzpatrick’s principled stance against the bill, where Fitzpatrick authored a letter opposing the withholding of defense materials to Ukraine as part of the bill’s passage. Stein remarks, “He could have walked out with my chest puffed after doing that” (16:46).

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Immigration Policy and ICE Funding

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing the implications of the current immigration bill:

• ICE Budget Surge: Stein points out the stark increase in ICE's funding, noting, “The ICE budget at 37.5 billion is greater than Israel's defense budget at 30.5 billion” (19:05).

• Creation of Detention Centers: The hosts express concern over the establishment of large-scale detention centers, likening them to prison camps and predicting a rise in mass deportations. Stein observes, “This is the country that they want,” criticizing the dehumanization inherent in these policies (20:20).

• Economic and Social Impact: Discussing the broader ramifications, Stein explains how reduced immigration can lead to economic stagnation despite low unemployment rates. He states, “Without people coming to the country to do more work, to pay into our social insurance programs… economic growth seems like it's going to be real close to stagnant” (29:26).

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Pentagon and Ukraine Weapons Funding

The episode explores controversies surrounding US support for Ukraine:

• Ridge Colby Case: Stein questions how Ridge Colby, Trump’s envoy for Ukraine, could unilaterally decide to halt weapons supplies, speculating, “Did Rubio not know about this? Trump not know about this?” (31:30).

• Implications for US-Ukraine Relations: The hosts discuss the potential weakening of support for Ukraine, with Stein concluding, “They really do believe [in the immigration policies],” tying it back to broader governmental priorities (32:40).

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Social and Cultural Impacts

Stein and Miller examine the cultural fallout from restrictive immigration policies:

• Latino Music Industry: Adrian’s piece highlights how fear of ICE raids is causing a decline in Latino music festivals and international artists participating in the US, severely impacting the entertainment industry (26:48).

• Tourism and Local Economies: Reduced immigration is also affecting tourism and local businesses dependent on diverse international clientele, leading to economic downturns in various sectors (27:29).

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Ideals vs. Reality: Patriotism and American Declaration

In a reflective segment, Tim reads a portion of Thomas Jefferson's letter on patriotism, prompting a heartfelt discussion on the nation’s current state:

• Jefferson’s Vision vs. Today’s Reality: Stein responds, “No, I don't. It's difficult time to be in here... We have forgotten how to learn to talk to each other” (44:50), expressing disillusionment with the current political discourse and treatment of migrant communities.

• Erosion of Foundational Values: The conversation underscores a departure from the ideals of self-government and universal rights, with Stein lamenting the current administration’s actions as contrary to Jeffersonian principles (47:12).

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Candace Owens and Macron Rumors

The podcast touches on sensational rumors involving Candace Owens:

• Alleged Interaction with Trump and Macron: Tim shares an audio clip of Owens claiming that President Trump called her to stop discussing whether Brigitte Macron is transgender. Stein expresses skepticism and frustration over the bizarre nature of such claims, stating, “It's ridiculous... we are in trouble” (37:15).

• Impact on Geopolitical Discourse: The hosts critique how Owens' focus on conspiracy theories detracts from meaningful geopolitical discussions, emphasizing the absurdity of intertwining personal rumors with international relations (40:52).

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Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Stein and Miller reflect on the disheartening state of American politics, emphasizing the disconnect between foundational ideals and current policies. They express hope for continued discourse and the enduring spirit of patriotism, even as they critique the prevailing political climate.

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Notable Quotes

• Sam Stein on Republican Red Lines: “They just continue to draw lines in the sand that they know they're just going to flagrantly violate” (07:27).

• On ICE Funding: “The ICE budget at 37.5 billion is greater than Israel's defense budget at 30.5 billion” (19:05).

• Reflecting on American Ideals: “It's a difficult time to be in here... We have forgotten how to learn to talk to each other” (44:50).

• On Candace Owens’ Claims: “It's ridiculous... we are in trouble” (40:52).

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Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with a somber tone, urging listeners to reflect on the nation’s trajectory and the importance of upholding its foundational values amidst political turmoil. Tim Miller signs off, hinting at future episodes featuring prominent neoconservatives like Bill Kristol.

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Produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Trip Planner by Expedia. You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on the beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia Made to Travel hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. By the time you all hear this, I will be flying over the Atlantic with a wine and a novel. So if you need one more hour with my dulcet tones in your ears before a one week reprieve, head on over to the Next Level feed on your podcast app of choice. Because yesterday's show was an absolute banger, I do have to say, so make sure you're catching the Next level every Wednesday. One other programming note that's very sweet. I received a very grateful message from the folks at Mana, which is a food relief organization Nick Kristoff recommended our listeners donate to on last Friday's episode. Apparently there was an outpouring of financial support following the show. So thanks so much to all of you. I really appreciate this community. And we'll re up. There are a couple of other organizations Nick shouted out as well and we'll put those in the show notes of this podcast. You know what else we're going to put in the show Notes of this podcast? A couple playlists for you for the week. The Bulwark Podcast playlist of all the outro songs that I play. It's like coming up on 10,000 followers, which is kind of crazy. And I also speaking of Bangers, my 4th of July playlist is really the best thing out there. So we'll give you those two things for you as well. As for this show, it's my favorite guest.

[Sam Stein]

Oh stop.

[Tim Miller]

But he had some summer vacation tech difficulties, so it's Sam Stein as an emergency substitute. What a treat. Managing editor of this year, Bulwark. How are you doing, Sam Stein?

[Sam Stein]

I'm actually regretting doing this.

[Tim Miller]

It sounds like you are podcasting while also editing the Morning Shots newsletter by Bill Kristol. And you said something interesting to me the other day about how younger Sam would have would have thought about being Bill Kristol's newsletter editor. And I just kind of wanted to explore that a little bit more, you know, how do you, how are you processing that these days? How's that experience for you?

[Sam Stein]

Well, I didn't realize I was going on the couch at 7:30am but it's interesting. Do you want the honest assessment or.

[Tim Miller]

The I want the. I want just full. This is the ethos of this podcast is radical candor.

[Sam Stein]

It's been kind of out of body at times. I literally. I do remember, like, 2006, 2007 HuffPost saying, Bill Kristol is the devil. Bill Kristol is the devil. I cannot believe he did this to our country and got us into Iraq. And so things change, obviously. Obviously, we're. There's some overriding principles that have brought us together. And also, it is. I will say this. God, I don't want to get in trouble for this, but he's a lovely man. He's just genuinely.

[Tim Miller]

Who'd you get in trouble for with that?

[Sam Stein]

You know, the lefties online who still hold grudges. Bill's a great guy. And also, the truth about this stuff is Oslo. And I discovered this a long time ago, but ever more so now. So much of what we do nowadays in communication is just online and bomb throwing, and you never actually talk to the person. When you do actually talk to the person and get to know the person, realize they're a human being, it radically changes your perceptions of them, for obvious reasons. I used to do this thing, and I'll shut up after this, but I used to think I don't do it anymore, where someone on Twitter would be harassing me and saying horrible, nasty things, and I would try to find their actual. These are, like, not like total bots, but, like, real people.

[Tim Miller]

Not like John Podhoritz, but, like, actual people. Like, normal people.

[Sam Stein]

Putting John aside, I would find their phone number, and I would call them up, and I would say, hey, I just want to talk about, like, why you think I'm the scum of the earth. Like, can we. Can we? Like, oh, yeah. I would do it once a month, and I would just be like, you know, in this tweet I saw of yours, you, like, call me, like, the dumbest human being since, you know, whatever. Like, can you explain why you feel that way? I just, like, do that. And like, almost every single time, with a few exceptions, person be like, oh, shit, man. I didn't mean that. I didn't realize you would see that and, like, let me take that down. And I'd be like, no, no, keep it up. It's important. Like, just keep it up. But, like, let's talk about it.

[Tim Miller]

Did anybody say, fuck you, K word?

[Sam Stein]

Oh, yeah, I got. Well, I would try to avoid the anti Semitic ones because those people are lost, but I would definitely have some people who'd be like, how the fuck did you get my number? Like, don't ever Call me again. But more. More often than not, it was people who realize that you're a human.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And Bill's kind of more than human, though. He's kind of superhuman.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, Bill's amazing. Bill's. Bill's the best. And, you know, would I like him to stick on topic for the newsletter every now and then? Yeah, of course.

[Tim Miller]

But, you know, you don't like his newsletters where he does imaginary voice of Donald Trump and he writes a screenplay.

[Sam Stein]

While I may not appreciate the artistry of them, our subscribers do because metric wise, they're great.

[Tim Miller]

Do you see the same trajectory for you with J.D. vance? Do you think you'll be editing his newsletter in eight years, or do you think there's kind of a red line on this principle?

[Sam Stein]

I'm happy to edit JD Vance if he wants the sentence of the bulwark. I think it'd be an interesting thought experiment.

[Tim Miller]

I am not eat addiction. Okay, so you're. You do this. The morning newsletter talks about the news. So we'll start with the most important news of the day.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Diddy was acquitted on racketeering and sex trafficking charges. People were smothering themselves with baby oil outside the courthouse.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Bill's actually writing on this one. He was there with the baby oil. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Is it doing a freak off?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, he said.

[Tim Miller]

What was the.

[Sam Stein]

What was the thing? They're saying it's not a rico. It's Freeco Frico.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's not rico, it's rico. Says you, Andrew Egger and Bill kind of just rubbing each other with baby oil.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, we haven't. We're actually doing a YouTube component for this as well, so stay tuned.

[Tim Miller]

All right. I'm really sad to miss that while I'm in Madrid. The actual news, the big whatever. Bill, it was late last night, so that's why Sam is punchy. He was staying up to watch it. There were some Republican House members that were showing some spine. They were like, Mike Johnson, you cannot bully us. We are going to hold out on this vote for the rule to proceed. Very. A very principled matter. Several of them didn't. One actually ended up doing it. I'll talk about him in a second. In the end, they did the same thing they always do. All of them ended up folding. That vote was to pass it so they could vote on it. And so the actual vote will be today on the substance of the bill. But it's done. It's a fait accompli at this point. So talk about what you make about that whole Story, what's your top takeaway?

[Sam Stein]

I never thought they were going to hold out. I don't think you did either. I mean, I just seemed performative. It is kind of funny, the contortions that they make. It was like right beforehand, they're like, we're going to vote for this, but not today. We need a day. We're not going to do it today. And the speaker would be wise.

[Tim Miller]

My friend Chip Roy, the goldfish, was like he had narrowed his complaints to one thing and it was like, I just don't think I can do it unless the green energy subsidy program has a one year moratorium. It's like, that's really where you're going to hold the line on this bill, Chip. It seems like you should just shut up and just vote for it at this point.

[Sam Stein]

What's funny to me is that they just continue to draw lines in the sand that they know they're just going to flagrantly violate. Like, Don Bacon, 500 billion Medicaid cuts is my red line. I know.

[Tim Miller]

It wasn't.

[Sam Stein]

You voted for a trillion. The one that killed me was. It was David Valadao in California who.

[Tim Miller]

Like, three days ago, tough one for me because he was one of the impeachers.

[Sam Stein]

I know.

[Tim Miller]

There are only two left.

[Sam Stein]

I know. Well, I mean, sorry, but like, you can't put out a statement three days ago being like, I will never vote for the Senate version. I'm a no. And then like three days later be like, all right, I'm ready to bs. Yeah. It's like, I guess if I had a piece of advice, I would tell them or whoever is doing comms for them to like, don't do red lines. Like, you're going to cross them. Like, you should know this by now. I was waiting for Victoria. My favorite is Victoria Spartz.

[Tim Miller]

Like, she's just the best Ukrainian immigrant. People should Google her. Her voice is interesting. If you don't know her, you're always.

[Sam Stein]

Going into the superficial and I want to stay elevated.

[Tim Miller]

I apologize.

[Sam Stein]

She always has, like, the most hilarious twists. And last night it was like, I will not vote for the rule, but I will vote for final passage, which made no sense whatsoever. And then, of course, she ended up voting for the rule. These people are spineless, obviously, and they don't really have any principles other than we need to, like, get something done for Trump. I actually thought the most interesting tweet about this came from the Trump Rapid response account when right before they were voting and they were like, trying to get everyone Ginned up about it and I think that I don't have it in front of me, but the tweet of kin was like, let's go Republicans beat the crooked Democrats. And it's like that sort of encapsulated everything for me, which is like nothing about the bill was like worth pitching in that moment for them. It wasn't like, hey, let's extend the tax cuts or let's fund ice. It's like we need to shove it in the face of crooked Democrats who have nothing to do with this at all. Like they're not involved. You don't need their votes. But it's all about scoring victories and making Democrats look bad. And it's a horrible way to legislate. And we can get into the sort of more substantive matters because I was intrigued by this idea, like the J.D. vance stuff about minutia and the fact that he seems to not be all on board all the bill, but loves the immigration stuff. And then of course, Elon Musk stuff where he hates the bill. It's like I'm stealing chait here. But that is really interesting that the two sort of tent poles of the new Republican ideology don't like what's in this bill.

[Tim Miller]

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[Sam Stein]

What?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, like, then he kind of goes on, some liberals don't value work. He's like, this bill is going to create work requirements for healthy adults. And like Favreau kind of replies with some actual substance here about how well, like that's about 3% of the people that are on Medicaid who can work but aren't. You know, this bill is going to result in healthcare being lost for people that are not able bodied, childless adults. Which is who Don was trying to focus on. And less interesting than the kind of boring back and forth on the details for me was just that like, Don is a retiring congressman. He could do whatever he wants. And you could imagine him being mad at the Senate for jamming him when he said he had a red line. Like you could imagine being mad, right? He said he had a red line. He could be mad at his Senate colleagues. He, you could imagine him, you know, being mad at Trump that he has to retire because of how stupid politics has gotten. You could imagine him like being mad at himself and like instead he's gonna lash out at liberals on Twitter.

[Sam Stein]

So you're suggesting it's self soothing, right? Like, yeah, he needs to find a way to tell himself that what he did was right when he knows what he did was wrong. And yeah, I think that's the case for a lot of these people.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

But I also think like, I don't know, is our politics attracting these people who just don't give a shit about the actual principles of the legislation? And maybe I think that's a problem. And I just found, I found this whole process to be dumbfounding. I mean it's so arbitrary. Like what are we doing? Why did we have to do this by July 4th?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, they keep saying we have to do it because taxes are going to go up on people. Like not till, not until next year. No, we have half the year to figure.

[Sam Stein]

It's crazy. I mean if there was a deadline, it was about the debt ceiling, but that's in August and maybe September they could have figured it out and they just decided, well no, we have to do this. And I don't think if you, if you put like true serum in them, I don't think that they would say this bill is good. I don't even think they would say this bill is better than the status quo. I think a lot of them would say this bill like kind of screws things up in a way that is really obviously problematic. I mean, the best policy anecdote about how stupid this whole bill is is what they did to snap. So the food relief program, they created this insane incentive just to win over Murkowski's vote. They created this insane incentive where if you're a state who has a horrible error rate in administering this program, you actually get financial relief, you get the feds to cover the full SNAP benefits. And so states are now going to say, okay, we're kind of at the cusp. Should we make our administration more efficient or should we just worsen it and hand out benefits to more people erroneously and they're incentivized to do the wrong thing. I just find that in what world would you want legislation passed that way? But it goes back to your point, which is they need to self soothe and they need to say, well it's great for Trump, it's great for Republicans and I think mainly it's bad for Democrats that we get a win.

[Tim Miller]

Like literally the only substantive, like I said, Dan Crunch, I make this point others argument about the merits of the building better than the status quo is that the Trump tax cuts will expire, there'll be a massive tax increase. But again it's not like. So in their view that's better than the status quo. But you could have just done that. You could have just Stopped. There are plenty of other options. There was one Republican I mentioned this earlier that did oppose this and did something that I've been asking Republicans to do for a while, so I want to at least mention it. It's Brian Fitzpatric Patrick out of Pennsylvania. He wrote a letter earlier in the day that said he wanted to express his concerns with the letters to Trump with reporting that the U.S. is withholding defense material already pledged to Ukraine. Among Those was the PAC3 Patriots that is protecting Ukraine from the missiles that they're getting bombarded with right now and essentially says, we need to resolve this if I'm going to vote for this bill. And me and Bill have been asking for this for a while. It's just like, there are a lot of Republicans that wear the Ukraine pin, but it's like, okay, well, why don't you use this for leverage the way that conservatives do for spending or whatever. Brian Fitzpatrick actually does it, and then he runs away and they can't find him. That's like a video of him running through the basement, running through the tunnels of Congress. So I don't know. I would have walked out with my chest puffed after doing that if I was Brian Fitzgerald. But that's okay. That's more of a style.

[Sam Stein]

No, no, I like it. Come find me, bitch.

[Tim Miller]

Hiding in the CO closet, turning my phone on.

[Sam Stein]

Silence.

[Tim Miller]

Dnd. So, anyway, that. That's good, but, you know, it's just, again, it's one guy, and he only had two other guys to. To do it. They would. They could have killed it.

[Sam Stein]

It's crazy because there's so many things that these guys claim they want to, like, you know, effectuate and that they need leverage for. And this is the one opportunity, really, that they have. I don't really know what else they're going to do legislatively. And, like, they could have done. You know who used leverage pretty well? Lisa Murkowski. Yeah, she did. And, like, it's hilarious to me that, I mean, I didn't like how she did it, and I thought it was kind of ridiculous, the end sum. But, like, it's kind of surprising that more people weren't like, you know what? Let's band together. Five Ukraine supporters could have banded together and been like, we will not vote for this bill unless you put, like, those weapons back. And Brian Fitzpatrick was the. Was the only one on. You know, plenty of people with universities who are getting, like, stiffed by the federal government of research funds could have been like, we are not gonna vote for this bill unless you Turn the spigots back on. And they just basically handed all their leverage to Trump because, what, they're fearful of a primary or something?

[Tim Miller]

You probably risked a primary on this bill if you were like the one person that was the final.

[Sam Stein]

It's a collective action problem, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but like David Valadao in a top. Who you mentioned earlier, the guy who's. He's in California. So it's a jungle primary. It's a top two. They've tried to primary him for the right ever since the impeach. He voted to impeach Trump. He could have survived voting against this bill. There are other people that could have survived.

[Sam Stein]

Well, he might.

[Tim Miller]

Still.

[Sam Stein]

As we record this, it's 8 o'. Clock. We haven't really seen the final vote. He voted for the rule.

[Tim Miller]

You're generous. You're generous. I'm sorry. Once you voted for the rule, it's over for me. Okay. You can't sell me on. Well, I voted for the rule, but I voted against final passage. John Kerry. Okay, whatever. We're not going to do that.

[Sam Stein]

He was for it before. He was against it.

[Tim Miller]

That doesn't count. So you mentioned earlier, the JD Stuff, we talked about this earlier in the week, that it is worth just, just ribboning on a little bit more since he's like double and tripled down on it. He sends this tweet where it's like everything else in this bill is immaterial.

[Sam Stein]

DC Minutiae. Immaterial.

[Tim Miller]

Immaterial.

[Sam Stein]

Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Immaterial was one of the words it might have been. Immaterial. Minutiae I don't have in front of me. Immaterial except for ICE funds. And the interesting thing here is he continued digging in on that and I got into a Twitter war with Matt Iglesias on this topic.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, that was amazing.

[Tim Miller]

And this number comes out here from Ian Bremmer today, when you just kind of put in context how much the immigration funding is once this bill passes, the funding for ice, our domestic police force, now, immigration police force is greater than the amount of funding for all, but, like the top 10 militaries in the world. The ICE funding the ICE budget at 37.5 billion is greater than Israel's defense budget at 30.5 billion. Really? That's what's needed. And we did this on the next level a little bit. As far as the. There's no judges. You know, we're not funding any judges. Immigration judges.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

So we're just going to fund these massive detention centers and more contractors to like, wear masks and hassle people. Like, that's, that's what we're doing.

[Sam Stein]

Yes, that's what we're doing. I mean, it's very obvious. It's, you know, it's very obvious that that's this, this is the country that they want. Right? I mean, I think in addition to JD Vance's tweet and tiff with glaciers, which is just like, I don't know, maybe if I were vice president, I probably would not spend my time that way. But I thought the other thing was, like, Trump deciding, like, you know what, all this shit's going down with this bill. I'm gonna just hop on a plane and go to Alligator Alcatraz and, like, check out this Everglades prison that we set up. And there's like, you know, they were, like, taking photo shoots and they brought along Benny Johnson for some, you know, sizzle reel footage. And it was just like, the celebration of the creation of a immigration police state is really remarkable. They get off on this stuff. They really do. And we're going to have militarized huge portions of our cities. I suspect we're going to have people in cages, we're going to have mass deportation ramped up from even where it is right now. And I take J.D. vance very seriously, literally, not just figuratively or whatever the fuck the phrase is, when he says that this is the main thing in the bill for him, I really do think this is Stephen Miller's administration. I think they're totally focused on this stuff. They believe in it. They think that throwing immigrants out of this country is gonna unlock jobs, it's gonna unlock the welfare state to make sure it's more stable, it's gonna give people more benefits because immigrants are draining our benefits. All this bullshit. I think they really do believe it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it was a wild press conference. I'm not gonna punish people with it. But Trump gave like, a rambling three minute long. Did you watch this, like, answer to how long people are going to stay in these detention centers? And it's like, I mean, a, his mental acuity doesn't seem quite there, but he's also just like, kind of going on about how there's going to be a connection of camps. And I, I, to me, it seemed less. Some people were sharing it as, like, how ominous this is, that he, like, he wants you to stay indefinitely in internment camps. And that's. That is ominous. I, like, interpreted it as, as like a, like you said, he gets off on this stuff. And he is. And he wasn't all there and he was like losing his train of thought and kept kind of rambling about it, but so he does that. And then Ron, Desanctimonious spokesperson, was kind of refined to the backlash to this, I noticed. And she was like, essentially this is misinformation. We're not going to keep people here indefinitely. An alligator Alcatraz. We're going to be sending them back to their home country immediately. And I just don't think that people like, who are not deeply involved in the immigration system can really process what that means and what that looks like because they keep going back to this whole like, well, Obama deported a lot of people. Bomb deported a lot of people. It is such a misnomer because those numbers are all people coming across the border and then going right back around. A people aren't coming to the border right now, but if they were, they weren't being sent then to the Everglades to then be deported. Right. Like they're being kept on the border.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

So the people that are going to the fucking Everglades camp and all these other prison camps that going to start to build are people from the interior of the U.S. yes. And their plan, I guess is then to take the like the Cuban guy that died in their custody and instead of leaving him in Alligator Alcatraz, I guess their stated plan is that they're just going to send him without a judge or with some fake judge, you know, fake, like militarized police, just straight to some country hasn't been in for half like century. Like that's. That is literally their plan.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, 100%. And I think you made a really important point, which is yes, deportations under Obama were high. They did it because, one, I think Obama actually did believe in enforcement more than people recognize. But also two, they're trying to get buy in for immigration reform from Republicans and they thought that would get it to them. But also to your point, a lot of people cross the border, they're sent back, they turn around, they try to cross the border again, they get sent back. That kind of juices the numbers in this case.

[Tim Miller]

That's two.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, that's two right there. Right? It's like repeat offenders in this case. A lot of this is, well, almost all of it now because we have no border crossing, interior enforcement. I forget who I was talking to. Maybe it was Edgar. But just the way the Overton window has shifted on this stuff. I mean, Trump 1.0 is famous for public recoiling at images of kids in cages. That was the defining moment of when people turned on his immigration policy. Trump 2.0 is they are going down with paparazzi, political paparazzi, to show you the cages they've built with branded hats and shirts with branded hats and fun alligators and, you know, the dehumanization of it all is, is. It's sad, honestly. It's. We've gotten to a really dark place where we treat people like we're treating people now. And I'm sure Trisha McLaughlin will say, well, they all have these. Every single one of them has a horrible record that we can't see. Yes, I'm sure it was like the.

[Tim Miller]

Cuban guy that died, you know, he had a drug arrest in 1984 in Miami. I was like, oh, somebody was doing drugs in Miami in 1984. Oh, really? Breaking news.

[Sam Stein]

That's a shock to the system. We should have been deported back then. No, it's crazy. They come up with. You didn't see his social media posts where he threw up a peace sign that looked like an MS.13 symbol. It's like, come on, man.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of social media posts, I just got a text this morning from one of my friends who I'm meeting on my holiday, and he said he's already talking to foreigners about, like, why they aren't coming to America.

[Sam Stein]

And, like, I could guess.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right, right. But like, the social media thing, I don't know if it's really, like, sunk in with people, like, the degree to which, like, people that are coming in on travel visas now, like, they're being asked to look through their phones.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Like they're go, I again, it is, it is like you're going to an authoritarian state. You know, like, when I land in Spain, you know, after the red eye, like, they're not going to be like, hey, Tim, have you said anything mean about the Catalonian party? Like, you know, before you come in.

[Sam Stein]

Are you a Basque separatist?

[Tim Miller]

Memes about that, like, where you make Basque separatist leaders look like they have a fat face. It's like, no, that's not what's happening. But that, like, that is. It's a small thing. Like, when you combine it with the interior enforcement and with the fear. I don't know, it paints a picture that I just think things are going to look worse than a lot of people realize by next year.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Also, I don't think it's that small thing. I think we'll see what the numbers end up showing. But just think about the downstream ripple effects, even economically, from this Less tourism, less international business. Adrian had a piece for us about the Latino music industry. The concert venues are just getting absolutely shredded because no one wants to. No one wants to show up at a Latino music festival because they think ICE will come down and rate them, like, right legit. They don't want to do it. Artists aren't coming here because they can't get their visas satisfied. I mean, and you might say, well, is that like, profoundly impactful? And yeah, like, yeah, it's a profound.

[Tim Miller]

We are coming up. I'm going to end with some, some, you know, patriotic pains to the American spirit, To the American declaration.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Like, even if it's not that big of a deal to you, practically, whether or not you're going to have a big Bad Bunny concert here in the country, it, like, is extremely impactful about what the spirit of the country and what the country is supposed to be about and whether you want to be able to live in a free country. If there are people that decide they can't sing their songs here because they're race.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. And then you think about like, well, every music venue has vendors who need customers. You know, they have, you know, surrounding restaurants and shops that need clientele. I mean, just the ripple effects of it all. And then you get to like, well, the farming industry, the hotel industry. I know he's trying to create carve outs for that, but they're not showing up. They might not believe there's carve outs yet. And. And that's just like this. That's just like the surface level stuff. I mean, think about it under the surface. And then you get into a place where the country is closed off, the economy kind of slows down, and culturally we're so homogenous that we become less and less recognizable.

[Tim Miller]

I want to talk about the econ stuff because you mentioned it. Our man friend of the pod, Stan Voiger over at aei, was posting that the US will fall to net zero immigration or below this year as a result of everything we're talking about. And so what that means practically is that the country only needs to create 10 to 40,000 jobs per month to keep unemployment at 4.2%. So on one level, you're like, okay, well, unemployment won't be spiking like it was in the Great Recession. That's good. On the other hand, this is a picture of a country that is stagnant. You're slashing public sector jobs across the board, and we're not bringing any new people into the country. And as is the great stagnation I thought that's what Peter Thiel and Marc Andreessen were fighting against. But that's what we're doing.

[Sam Stein]

When you get to a place where you just don't have people coming to the country to do more work, to pay into our social insurance programs, to pay taxes, even if they're not citizens and they do this, they don't get the benefits they pay into it, but also to be customers, to buy things, to generate economic growth. Sure, we can have. Our unemployment rate's going to be fine because we're going to have a lot of open jobs and very few people, or fewer people, I should say, able to fill them. So, yeah, we'll have a fairly low unemployment rate. But Joe Biden had a fairly low unemployment rate. Right. And inflation really sucked. And I'm not saying we're going to have inflation here, but my point is unemployment rate does not always mean good economic vibes. And I think we're going to be in a place where, you know, economic growth seems like it's going to be real close to stagnant.

[Tim Miller]

We'll see.

[Sam Stein]

Maybe these tax. Extending the tax cuts will help us.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, and it is true that they're doing the tax cuts. Like, I got a text yesterday from somebody who's on Medicaid that are like, how screwed am I? And it's like, well, these fuckers are like extending the tax cuts and funding the private prisons immediately.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

And they're cutting health care in a year and a half.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

So it takes time for all this stuff to sort of seep through the entire economy.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. I wish I had the data in front of me. I think Cohen told me some stuff is going to get triggered earlier than that. But I think mostly the pain is coming down the pike past the midterms.

[Tim Miller]

The 2027 side of things.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And that's the Josh Hawley argument. That won't ever happen. We'll fix it before 2027. We'll just give you your tax cuts, which I'm sure Ron Johnson excited about. We covered the Ukraine weapons thing. I just have one other thing on it. Like, the story's kind of weird. I know you've been kind of deep in BBB world, but have you been following this?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. So what happened? Colby. What's his name?

[Tim Miller]

Ridge Colby. Ridge Colby. Who is the guy? Yeah. Who is the, you know, kind of J.D. vance stand in. In the Pentagon, you know, kind of more of the nationalist America first doesn't want to do stuff.

[Sam Stein]

I guess my theory of the case Is like, was Rubio not, like, looped in on this? That's kind of what I want to know about, because I don't really understand how they could just. It seems like it just came out of nowhere. And the second thing is, if you're Zelensky, right, like, you just cut this minerals deal with Trump. You've literally conspicuously said thank you every single time you meet with him. You tweet thank you every time, because you know that that's what they demand. You had a fairly smashing success with the drones, but the Russians are still pounding you. There's not much more you can do to over the favor of the administration. And for a bureaucrat at the Pentagon to then suddenly decide, you know what, we're gonna hold these weapons, that's gotta be incredibly deflating. Obviously, it's frightening, too, for the country. You know, I don't know. It's like. It just seems like Trump just doesn't care for Ukraine. He just wants to get the Russians to a point of yes so that he can end the war.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So Keith Kellogg, this guy, he was at the NSC in the first Trump term.

[Sam Stein]

That's his old guy, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. There's an adv. And so he currently serves as Trump's envoy for Ukraine. And he is pretty MAGA as far as the generals are concerned, but on the right side, from my perspective. Well, from just the accurate perspective, since they were. From the moral perspective. Yeah, from the moral perspective, since they were invaded. He's been good on the Ukraine issue. So he's Trump's special envoy to Ukraine. So the story is out there. Like, you're mentioning about how the weapons aren't going there. Bridge. People are saying, bridge, Colby, you know, put a stop on these weapons being sent there. Kellogg's daughter, Megan Mobbs, who is at one of these foundations, is, like, tweeting about how, like, this isn't true, this is fake news. This is people leaking stuff to try to advance an agenda. And there are other people out there saying that Trump didn't even know about this.

[Sam Stein]

That's what I was getting at. Like, did they not. Did Rubio not know about this? Trump not know about this? Are they just, like, allowing this dude to just decide on a whim, hey, we're not going to do this anymore. Like, is there not a process here also? It is true. It's been confirmed by about 15 outlets.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. It kind of seems like no is the answer. And they're happy to have the, you know, fog of war element out there because I don't know, Trump seems totally schizophrenic on this. I know the popular thing on the resistance YouTube is to be like, Trump is Krasnovich. And he was. He's been a Russian asset since 1983 by the time when a Russian hooker peed on his face. And I don't know, I don't. I would say there's not a zero percent chance of that. Maybe 1% that's possible. But to me, first of all, it seems more just like Trump is. Just like Trump likes Putin because Putin sucks up to him. Putin helped him win. Putin's been on his side. But then he gets annoyed with Putin sometimes because he doesn't do exactly what he wants. And you know what I mean? He's like, he's a little bit. He has an instinctive tendency towards the strong man. First of all, like he's been kind of schizophrenic on it.

[Sam Stein]

The rumor was that the hooker peed on the bed, not on his face. Let's not exaggerate. Okay.

[Tim Miller]

I thought the rumor was the hooker peed on the other hooker, that it was two hookers. They were peeing on each other. He was watching.

[Sam Stein]

I think they just peed on the bed. We got a pause.

[Tim Miller]

Why would they just pee on the bed? Clearly you've never been to a freak off. Sam. What would be the sexual.

[Sam Stein]

I've been to my.

[Tim Miller]

She just pee on the bed like it was a toilet. Like just pop a squat on top of the pillow.

[Sam Stein]

I've been to my share of ditty parties. Do not question my credentials on this. Okay. No, I think we're gonna have to go back to the dossier and figure these one.

[Tim Miller]

I'm pretty sure it would be one hooker peeing on another hooker. That would be the turn on, I would think.

[Sam Stein]

See, this is why you should have had Fremont because he could have.

[Tim Miller]

I.

[Sam Stein]

Don'T think from would have gone down this path. What were we talking about? Oh, Trump. Is he Russian asset? I don't know. He's not. I don't think so. But I think he talked about Hucker Pitt. I think he does. I think he does. Like, I think he's partial to Putin though. I mean, isn't that very evident that he kind of appreciates?

[Tim Miller]

Of course that's very evident. I guess my point is like this part of the reason. I guess I'm trying to say that like he doesn't want to make the final decision that I'm abandoning Ukraine.

[Sam Stein]

He doesn't want to make any Tough decisions, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. He wants it to be like, you know, all of these cut, little cuts, and like, slowly but surely the Ukrainians lose access to our weapons. But then he can, like, kind of say to people that he wants to that, like, oh, he was the first one to do it.

[Sam Stein]

But what's the end game then for him?

[Tim Miller]

I think he hopes that the Ukrainians just give Russia some land and we get our minerals and he gets the Nobel Peace Prize. I think that's. I think that's the end game for him.

[Sam Stein]

I don't doubt that he's obsessed with the Nobel Peace Prize. Like, he's so weird.

[Tim Miller]

I thought he didn't like the elites.

[Sam Stein]

Well, no, he's the most obvious. He so wants to be considered among the elites. It's such a driver of him. He just feels totally disrespected by that class that he needs to join it.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of Russian assets, I've got one piece of audio I do want to play for you an interesting story. Candace Owens, one of my competitors in the podcast space. We've talked about this. Have you? And I talked about this. Her obsession with the fact that Brigitte Macron is a man.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, my God. Yes, I'm obsessed with this. But you're also going to be stepping on Will Sommer, who's got original reporting coming down the pike on this one.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not stepping on. I'm excited to hear the original reporting.

[Sam Stein]

I don't want to give away too.

[Tim Miller]

Much, Candace, for listeners who have not really fully engaged or glazed over when I bring this up. Candace Owens isn't obsessed with the question of Brigitte Macron being a man. I get the level of, like, me being obsessed with the nuggets or something. Like, she has done a full documentary on it. Like, if you go to the YouTube page, it's like, about as likely that it's about this as any other issue. I mean, she has just totally embraced it as her cause celeb. And so she got, according to her, got a phone call from the president about this. And I want to play the audio. President Donald J. Trump, he is calling me. He tells me that Emmanuel Macron is requesting. To his face, I stopped speaking about his wife. I said to him, you know, respectfully.

[Sam Stein]

Mr. President, it's not my fault that.

[Tim Miller]

He married someone with a penis. Could that be real? I think it's real. I think it's real. I think Donald Trump called Candace Owens and was like, I need you to do me a solid with Emmanuel Macron and stop talking about Whether his wife is secretly trans.

[Sam Stein]

Again, I don't want to get ahead of our colleague.

[Tim Miller]

How can you not get out of the reporting? It's our show. When is it going to come out? When's the newsletter coming out?

[Sam Stein]

It's supposed to come out today.

[Tim Miller]

Great. This podcast comes out at 3 o'. Clock. You're keeping a secret.

[Sam Stein]

No, no, no, no.

[Tim Miller]

Subscribe to the Bulwark People. This is where you get the.

[Sam Stein]

There's two things. So Will has a newsletter today that's not the Candace own thing. He has a newsletter that is so ridiculous. This one, I'm fine teasing, because it will be out, I think, by the time it's podcast. His newsletter today is about this report that Cash Patel sent to Chuck Grassley about Chinese election interference in 2020. It's supposed to be this groundbreaking report. And it turns out that the source of the stuff that the FBI was Investigating back in 2020 also may have pushed the rumor that the Chinese had built a bunch of underground tunnels in America to spread the COVID virus and that the issue of passing around fake IDs was also an Internet hoax that this person found. So clearly not the bombshell, but Chuck Grassley ran with it. Anyway, that's his newsletter today. He, in addition to that, has a story come out of this Candace Owens stuff. I will say this, I think based on what Will has told me, that it is likely true that Trump called him.

[Tim Miller]

Do you think Trump thinks it's true?

[Sam Stein]

I don't know what Trump thinks about her allegations. I do know that Macron, according to Will Macron, has publicly talked about this where it's like, this woman, this commenter, needs to stop. And it's just so ridiculous. Like, if ever there was a symbol of, like, how far we've fallen, the fact that like Candace Owens is fucking around with geopolitical affairs and has the president, two presidents, two heads of state, kind of needing to respond to her absurd anti trans commentary is, I don't know, man, we're in trouble.

[Tim Miller]

It's hard for me to also disentangle. So maybe this is what we'll look forward in Will Summer's newsletter, which I won't read until July 14th because I'm going on blackout. But her claim is that the peace in Ukraine was hinging on this in some way and that Macron needed her to stop as part of, I don't know, maybe a negotiation with Putin.

[Sam Stein]

I like that you try to make some sense. That's what you're here for.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's strange. The White nationalist affinity for Candace is another thing that. I don't know. It's hard for me to wrap my head around.

[Sam Stein]

That one's easy to wrap around for me, but I won't get into it.

[Tim Miller]

The husband?

[Sam Stein]

No, I think that she's black. They like the fact that she kind of echoes what they say.

[Tim Miller]

Interesting. A friend once asked me if I would rather my daughter grow up to be Candace Owens or a stripper.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, my God.

[Tim Miller]

How would you feel? That one. Would you rather your child grow up to be a conspiracy theorist, MAGA commentator or a. Or a stripper?

[Sam Stein]

Kind of a. I can't believe someone asked you this. It's a weird person. How drunk were you guys? Her husband?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. Probably both. Yeah. What are we talking about? It's a. It's a tough world out there. Which one would you go with? I have a very serious class.

[Sam Stein]

What are the. What are the options?

[Tim Miller]

Your child. Your child.

[Sam Stein]

White nationalist.

[Tim Miller]

Either going to. Yeah. Grow to a white nationalist podcaster or like a. Like a stripper. Like a Chippendales person.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Because I. I have voice. I definitely. Chippendale.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Not even a close call. This person was outraged at me, actually, when they. When I made that suggestion. I. It took me. It didn't even take me as long as you. I was like, are you kidding me? A stripper? Amazing. Great, great life, whatever. I don't know. Have you seen Anora? She seems awesome.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I would way rather be a. Nora's mom, Candace.

[Sam Stein]

She really struck gold there.

[Tim Miller]

Nora went through some issues, but I don't want to spoil it for people. Great movie. Okay, we're going to close with some seriousness. Are you ready? This would have been better with David Frum, but we're going to do it with you. The whole pod would have been better. Really? But that's okay.

[Sam Stein]

You pod with the guest that you have.

[Tim Miller]

It is the fourth union. Whoa.

[Sam Stein]

Okay, deep cut.

[Tim Miller]

This is the fourth of July podcast. As a former Republican. Well, I guess. Let me ask you this first. Does the patriotism of the bulwark make you uncomfortable as part of your transition here?

[Sam Stein]

Why would that make me uncomfortable?

[Tim Miller]

The jingoism.

[Sam Stein]

The jingoism. We're not jingoistic. No. We're patriotic. I think we're.

[Tim Miller]

We have some traits.

[Sam Stein]

I don't know. No, of course not. I love this country.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I do, too. So, fortunately, during campaigns, I would read to the staffers, from the letter from Thomas Jefferson to Roger Waitman on the 50th anniversary of the declaration, are you familiar with that letter?

[Sam Stein]

Fucking loser.

[Tim Miller]

Know, it's fucking. It's really something. It's truly a banger, if you want. I mean, obviously when you read it, you start to, you know, think about maybe the. The elements in which Thomas Jefferson did not live up to this message of the letter. Even still, it says a lot about what we're trying to be. So I'm going to read. Read a part to you right now, and I would like to get your reaction. Are you ready?

[Sam Stein]

Okay. Do I need to get some tissues ready?

[Tim Miller]

If you want to. It's up to you. I mean, I have. I've made several people cry on this podcast recently, so it could happen to you. He's talking about what the Fourth of July should mean. I think he dies the next Fourth of July. He says to Waitman, may it be to the world what I believe it will be, to some part sooner, to others later, but finally to all the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves and to assume the blessings and security of self government. The mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately. These are the grounds of hope for others, for ourselves. Let the annual return of this day forever refresh our recollection of these rights and an undiminished devotion to them. Do you feel like this 4th of July we are going to forever refresh our recollection of the rights of the Declaration? Do you see that spirit in the country right now, Samuel?

[Sam Stein]

No. No, I don't. It's difficult time to be in here. You know, I don't want to, like, be too negative about things, but I think you have to be realistic that we're in a bad spot. I guess the thing that really, like, gets me is the. What we're doing to migrant communities. And I just find that to be, like, not in the spirit of what that Jefferson letter represented. I don't want to be too, like. I don't know what the word is, but I find the discourse in the way that we're conducting the, like, political conversations that we're having with each other to be really depressing, too. I don't know if, like, that's historically, you know, different than any other time. I'm sure, you know, we're not beating each other with canes. I know that's always the thing that they say, but, like, I do find, like, people are just nasty to each Other in a way that I found really unfortunate. And I think we basically have forgotten how to learn to talk to each other. It's pretty bad.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I just look at this and I did a separate thing. People should go check out the Bullock takes feed if you want to really cry. I did a separate thing on the Kilmar Abrego Garcia lawsuit where he makes a lot of allegations about what happened in Sukkot and to him, and who knows exactly what the truth is of it, but he paints an extremely bleak picture. And to me, when I think about the letter and the most distressing thing to me about all of it is, no matter. There was something to be said for the fact that we were flawed. We fucked up. We did Abu Ghraib, we didn't let Jews in. After World War II, Thomas Jefferson fathered a slave's kid. It was not that we were a perfect country, but that there was an aspiration that was like, we are going to try to do this, not just for us, but for people who wanted to come here. And Jefferson's telling for people around the world like, that these are grounds for hope for others, that they can also be blessed with these rights. And now the thing, to me that is the most disheartening is that with Trump, they have dispensed even with the notion that we should aim for this right. That it's like, actually, who gives a fuck if others have saddles on their back?

[Sam Stein]

And it's a virtue to go after those people. With Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And it's a virtue. And you're mocked, actually, like, in his speech in the Middle east, you're mocked if you say that we want these rights for others. Right. Not just like, oh, we don't want regime chain wars or whatever, but to even express the view that the US should want and encourage people to have the rights. And the blessings of the Declaration is now something that is derided. And to me, that is the sad part about this Fourth of July.

[Sam Stein]

That's a really interesting point. It's a really interesting point. To even think that way makes you either unrealistic or naive. Yeah. And it kind of saps you of any sort of sense of idealism, and it just reduces you to their level of cynicism. And that is actually pretty sad.

[Tim Miller]

I won't be reduced. I will be half a world away, though, on this Fourth of July.

[Sam Stein]

Congrats.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you so much. You guys survived the week without me. Do you think you can do it? Think you'll be okay? Will I be replaced when I come back. Do you think you'll live? Will your life be better or worse without me next week? Do you think?

[Sam Stein]

Sam, I'll probably have to do more takes, but I think that's going to be okay. I'll be all right, right? I'm gonna make it all right.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have any vacations planned?

[Sam Stein]

No. August. God, I gotta get out of town.

[Tim Miller]

You gotta do it. All right. And I owe your wife one, so, you know, we'll cover for you. Thank you for coming in this morning for an early call. I appreciate you very much. Everybody else, we'll be back here July 14th with Sam's favorite neoconservative, Bill Crystal. For Bill Crystal Mondays. And we'll see you all then. Enjoy the break. Bye.

[C]

I would like to leave this city this old town don't smell too pretty and I can feel the warning signs running around my mind and when I leave this island I book myself into a soul asylum Cuz I can feel the warning signs running around my mind so here I go still scratching around in the same old home My body feels young but my mind is very old so what do you say? You can give me the dreams of your mind anyway Half the world away Half the world away Half the world away I've been lost, I've been found but I don't feel and when I leave this planet you know I'd stay but I just can't stand it and I, I can feel the warning signs running around my mind and if I could leave this spirit I find me a goal and I'll live in it and I can feel the warning signs running around my mind Here here I go I'm still scratching around in the same old home My body feels young but my mind is very old.

[Tim Miller]

So.

[C]

What do you say? You can't give me the dreams of the mind anyway Half the world will away Half the world away Half the world away I've been lost, I've been found But I don't feel down no, I don't feel down no, I don't feel down don't feel down don't feel down don't feel down don't feel down.

[Tim Miller]

Sam The Bulwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.