Sen. Tina Smith: The Bulwark LIVE from Minneapolis

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast — LIVE from Minneapolis

Guest: Senator Tina Smith

Date: February 19, 2026
Host: Tim Miller

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Episode Overview

In this lively, candid live episode from Minneapolis, Bulwark host Tim Miller sits down with Senator Tina Smith to discuss the political moment in Minnesota and the country at large. The conversation weaves together reflections on Minnesota’s unique sense of community, the fallout from aggressive federal immigration tactics, the political climate in the Senate, Republican leadership, and introspection on Democratic choices. Delivered with humor, honesty, and a Minnesota edge, the episode is both a political dispatch and a meditation on the values of liberal democracy in trying times.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Minnesota Mindset & Radical Empathy

[02:05–05:28]

• Minnesota’s harsh climate as a metaphor for social reliance and resilience.
• Smith claims Minnesota’s “radical empathy” and strong organizing culture are the “secret sauce” for its social cohesion, in sharp contrast to narratives from figures like J.D. Vance.
  • Quote: "What Minnesota has shown...is that, I mean, we've shown like this radical empathy for one another, and then we're like fucking good organizers. Those two things go together." (Sen. Smith, 03:42)
• Examples of neighborly support—shoveling driveways, delivering meals, or quietly protecting each other’s safety.
• Stories of mutual aid for immigrants (see Timestamps for story details).

2. Immigration Enforcement & Federal Cruelty

[05:51–10:41]

• Smith recounts harrowing constituent stories, such as:
  • A local restaurant owner, an asylum seeker, fearing ICE raids while neighbors protect him. (Story at 05:51–07:01)
• Viral images (e.g., child Liam Conejo Ramos) breaking out of progressive circles and affecting some Congressional Republicans.
• Smith and Miller agree recent immigration crackdowns aren’t about policy, but cruelty and political narratives.
  • Quote: "When you see...what they have done here, you can really only conclude that cruelty is the purpose. You know, meanness is the purpose." (Sen. Smith, 08:58)
• Minnesota as a “proving ground” for authoritarian policies — attacks not just on immigrants, but on journalists, political opponents, voting access, and social benefits.
  • Quote: "Minnesota is basically saying, like, leave us the fuck alone." (Sen. Smith, 10:34)
• The normalization of strong language reflects the seriousness of the moment.

3. DHS Shutdown & the Senate’s Role

[11:56–15:43]

• Current “partial DHS shutdown” is a sham; ICE already well-funded due to previous appropriations.
• Miller and Smith debate strategy: fight for harm mitigation versus refusing any deals.
  • Smith: “We’re not asking...I think that this agency needs to be ripped down to the studs.”
  • But short-term, she’s focused on pressing for basic legal compliance for federal officers and harm mitigation.
• Smith vows not to vote for more ICE funding, noting they already have a multi-year financial cushion.
  • Quote: “They already have…more money than the Marines, more money than Israel’s military.” (Miller, 14:44)
• The challenge for the future: “clawing that money back.”

4. War with Iran – Congressional Authority

[15:54–19:24]

• Recent military buildup vis-a-vis Iran; lack of Congressional consultation.
• Miller satirically notes the misuse of old AUMFs; constitutional crisis highlighted.
• Smith calls for “balls to the wall” Democratic opposition to unauthorized war.
  • Quote: “No, I'm not going to send your kids to the Middle East to die in a war that you have no reason to want to be in.” (Sen. Smith, 18:13)

5. Loser Republicans & Reflections on GOP Figures

[20:27–26:23]

• Pete Hegseth (Trump Defense Secretary) roasted for incompetence and performative bravado.
  • Quote: “What a loser, right? I mean, not only is he incompetent, not only can you just tell that the generals don't have any real respect for him…” (Sen. Smith, 21:12)
• Minnesota’s special culture somehow “produced” him—teasing banter about state pride.
• Mike Lee confronted for spreading disinformation; Smith shares how Republicans aren’t used to direct confrontation in the Senate.
  • “He usually is looking at his shoes.” (Sen. Smith, 23:54)
• J.D. Vance examined for his charm, opportunism, and hardline transformation; concern about his ideological steadiness and potential as a disciplined “authoritarian project leader.”
  • Miller: “He is able to explain…deeply offensive and pernicious points of view, but make it seem like it’s the common sense view.” (25:34)
  • Smith: "He's trying to own it. He's trying to lead it." (26:58)
• Smith refrains from calling Vance a "douchebag" outright, citing Senate decorum.

6. Katie Britt & Republican Responsibility

[27:05–30:17]

• Discussion of Britt’s public empathy for mistreated immigrants (like Liam Ramos) versus her powerful role enabling such abuses.
• Smith: Many Republicans plead helplessness, blaming “Crazy Uncle Albert” or the primary calendar for their inaction.
  • Quote: "That's what a lot of my Republican colleagues do...I'd like to do something about it, but I can't do it..." (Sen. Smith, 28:55)

7. Democratic Self-Reflection: Dean Phillips and Al Franken

[31:17–36:34]

• Miller challenges Smith: was Dean Phillips “right” about Biden? Smith agrees Biden shouldn’t have run again, but criticizes Phillips’ approach.
• On Al Franken, Smith reflects on the “almost impossible” calculus, noting Franken was a "really good senator," but events unfolded in a specific cultural and historic context (“if it had happened at any other time…it wouldn’t have ended the same way").
• Larger debate about Democratic standards—do they sometimes undermine the party by holding leaders to impossibly high bars, unlike the GOP?
  • Quote: “We do hold our leaders to a very...different standard. And yet I don't always think that the standard is the right standard.” (Sen. Smith, 35:09)

8. Mount Rushmore Rapid Fire (Fun Segment)

[37:55–41:44]

• Tina Smith’s “Loser Republican/MAGA Mount Rushmore”: Pete Hegseth, RFK Jr., J.D. Vance, Stephen Miller.
• On Miller: “He is so ideological...Miller seems to me to be driven by ideology and a really cruel and heartless ideology.” (39:21)
• Minnesota’s real Mount Rushmore: Paul Wellstone, Prince, Bob Dylan, Judy Garland (after audience debate).
  • Paul Wellstone’s outsider status and radical approach cited as a needed model.

9. Leaving the Senate: Smith’s Reflection

[42:03–43:42]

• Smith on why she’s not seeking reelection:
  • “One of the important things about leadership is to do a really good job, do the best job that you can, and then open the door for the next leader...” (Sen. Smith, 42:31)
  • Not delusional that she’s the only one who can serve Minnesota.
  • She’s endorsed Peggy Flanagan as her successor.
• Miller and Smith agree that the authoritarian overreach has sparked political backlash, shaping 2026's landscape in Minnesota.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Minnesota Toughness:
  “That is the secret of why we are so scary.” (Sen. Smith, 02:28)

• Community Story:
  "There are these three people who have anointed themselves to sit by the door of this restaurant to make sure that he is safe inside while he cooks food for people..." (Sen. Smith, 06:15)

• Sharpest Epithet:
  “Minnesota is basically saying, like, leave us the fuck alone.” (Sen. Smith, 10:34)

• On Republican Cruelty:
  “Cruelty is the purpose. You know, meanness is the purpose.” (Sen. Smith, 08:58)

• War Authority:
  "No, I'm not going to send your kids to the Middle east to die in a war that you have no reason to want to be in." (Sen. Smith, 18:13)

• On Departing the Senate:
  “I don’t suffer under the delusion that… I’m the only one who can do this job.” (Sen. Smith, 42:56)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Minnesota Mindset & Radical Empathy: 02:05–05:28
• Community Stories & ICE Enforcement: 05:51–10:41
• Senate Politics, Shutdown, and Funding: 11:56–15:43
• War Powers & Iran: 15:54–19:24
• Republican Figures Discussion: 20:27–26:23
• Katie Britt Republican Accountability: 27:05–30:17
• Democratic Reflection (Phillips/Franken): 31:17–36:34
• Mount Rushmore/Humor Segment: 37:55–41:44
• Smith’s Farewell & Looking Forward: 42:03–43:42

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Tone & Style

The conversation is direct and unvarnished, often profane but always sincere. Both Miller and Smith employ Midwestern self-deprecation, humor, and candid critique—of others and their own party. The tone is at once urgent and personal, engaging the audience in high-stakes political critique but returning always to the ground realities of Minnesota life and the responsibilities of leadership.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We're live in Minneapolis, And I'm excited to bring out our guest, Tina Smith.

[Senator Tina Smith]

You invited my bass vote to the podcast.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have a bass vote anymore? I thought you were done. I thought you were done. This is. I've just. I've been trying. I was backstage trying to tell them I think Tim and Tina, it might be a good podcast. All right. They're going to be out on the market.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Tim and Tina, cut loose.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. What would it look like?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Terrifying.

[Tim Miller]

Glass of. Bottle of wine. Share a bottle of wine.

[Senator Tina Smith]

I'll carry all of my glasses. My tin cup that looks like a coffee cup, except on the outside it says probably wine.

[Tim Miller]

Yes. So I want to start here. You know, we've been gassing up the people of Minneapolis. I'm very inspired. The courage. It's been very moving. That said, I don't really understand why people live here. This is. It's uninhabitable. Can you give me a little bit of insight into the Minnesota mindset? Like, you choose to live here, Right. You're not forced.

[Senator Tina Smith]

That is exactly right. And that is the secret of why we are so scary. Right?

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Senator Tina Smith]

And today is a perfect day because we not only have, you know, growing inches of snow, but we also have a layer of ice under the snow. Which means that every single articulated bus that I drove by on my way here has over articulated and is blocking the road. So it's a mess.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I noticed that. You know, I was talking to. Who was I talking to about this. Adam Serwer was saying this to me, and I thought it was a really interesting insight. We're going to talk about your former colleague, J.D. vance, your friend J.D. vance in a little bit. But one critique he has of the American system is he's just like, social cohesion is just not happening anymore in this country. Too many immigrants, things are going too fast. And Minneapolis in particular has demonstrated the lie of his theory. This is a city that has a lot of immigrants. And we have seen, like, the type of social cohesion and unity and commitment to liberal values that he says is gone. And I wonder, like, what you think that is.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Well, so the first thing is, I mean, J.D. vance and his ilk wants us all to believe that we're all just in it for ourselves, that there actually isn't any cohesion, that everybody, It's. Everybody's on their own. They want people to believe that because that is how they maintain power, right? By dividing us and by making us be afraid of each other. But yet what Minnesota has shown, the people of Minnesota have shown is that, I mean, it's. We've shown like this radical empathy for one another, and then we're like fucking good organizers. And so that's the other side of it. That's those. Those two things go together. And it is. It is that the reality is that people actually feel better when they are working on a common project, when they are doing something together with other people that they think makes a difference and is going to matter. And I believe that that is a lot of the secret sauce of what has been driving people to show up in places that they've never shown up before for people that they will probably never know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Because that's like what matters. They know that that's what matters.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe there's a tie between these two things that I'm saying. Like, it's so uninhabitable, you know, that you need your neighbor's help, you need to communicate across difference, you know, in case you need your driveway shoveled.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Totally, totally. Like, yeah, well, like, we'll shovel your driveway, we will bring you food, we will deliver a doula to your door if you're having a baby and you don't feel safe going to the hospital. And not only that, but we won't brag about it, but we actually do think that we're pretty much better than everybody else.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I sense that.

[Senator Tina Smith]

So we don't really want to have to say it out loud. We just want you to notice us.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, we're noticing and you're starting to mention it from time to time, but that's okay. Is there anything in particular you've heard? Just inspiring stories before we get into the, you know, politics. Politics just felt like what you've been hearing from constituents and, you know, people in the community.

[Senator Tina Smith]

I mean, I have been moved to tears more times than I can count by just the random people telling me things. Just, I mean, just, just yesterday I was at a restaurant in St. Louis Park. I won't tell you the name of the restaurant because they haven't been able to open their door for over five weeks. The person who owns this restaurant, his wife is a US citizen, his child is a US Citizen. He is an asylum seeker. He know that if ICE pulls him over, they will consider him illegal and they will take him away. He's already lost two of his cooks. He has no idea where they are. He burst into tears as he's telling me that he doesn't know where they are and he knows that they're gone. And there are these three people who have anointed themselves to sit by the door of this restaurant to make sure that he is safe inside while he cooks food for people who pull up. And I'm like, why are you here? Why are you here? And they're just like, well, I live in the neighborhood and I really like, I'm not going to say his name because I don't want to target him. He's like a really good guy and I just thought he needed help.

[Tim Miller]

That's unbelievable.

[Senator Tina Smith]

And that's like, that really happens every single day in every single place. I could tell you a thousand stories and I bet people in this audience could tell you the same number of stories.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I put out a request. I just was asking our listeners, like, who are in the area to send me stories. And it is mind boggling because you do wonder, you know, when you're at a remove, right? And it's like hard in our social media age to grasp like what is really happening. Like, am I seeing the four worst viral clips is like one of this, one of these, an old clip, you know, and every person I talked to, to a person is like, no, it's worse.

[Senator Tina Smith]

The worst thing on social media has been worse. I mean, the thing that's so tragic about this is the viral clips. I Mean, everybody has seen the picture of little Liam Conejo Ramos, the little boy with the rabbit ears. Conejo in Spanish means rabbit, and that's why he wore the hat. Now, that is an example. Okay, so that clip went so viral that it broke into the Republican algorithms, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Senator Tina Smith]

And there's a lot of Republicans who really aren't seeing any of this because it's not getting into their feeds. But that got in. I mean, I talked to Katie Britt about that, my colleague.

[Tim Miller]

We're gonna get back to her, too.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Yeah, okay. No, and so she's like, yeah, I didn't wanna see that. But that's just. That's truly the tip of the iceberg about what's going on.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. The other frustrating thing, just about the policy of what they've been doing here, is it was pointless. And that, I think, is the most frustrating thing about all of this. Right. Like, if it was, you know, even if it was part of the ideological project for the. Like, we have to. You know, we're choosing Minneapolis because there's a disproportionate number of illegal immigrants that we want to deport. Like, that's not what it was.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Like, 23rd in the country.

[Tim Miller]

It's not for any of that. Like, all of this pain. It was towards their, I guess, more narrative project. Right. Like the authoritarian project. Like, it wasn't about fixing anything. It wasn't about a policy. Like, you can't meet them in the middle on it.

[Senator Tina Smith]

No, that's exactly right. That's exactly right. I think that. I mean, two things. First, when you see how what they have done here, you can really only conclude that cruelty is the purpose. You know, meanness is the purpose. And maybe it's towards their ideological goal of convincing people, you know. You know, don't come to the United States because we're like. We're like assholes. Maybe that's what they're trying to convince people of.

[Tim Miller]

Not quite the shining city. It's a little different.

[Senator Tina Smith]

A little different. Like Statue of Liberty? Not so much. No. We will, like. We will, like, rip you away from your children and we'll put you in a detention center in Texas and never let you out. So I think that is part of it. But. But the other thing Tim and I think is really important is that Minneapolis has been Minneapolis, but it's not just Minneapolis. It's the whole state has been. We're like the proving ground, the testing ground for their authoritarian project. And, yes, it is about the attack on immigrants and people that are different and not white. Yes, it is about squashing public dissent, including arresting journalists. Yes, it is about launching investigations into the people they perceive to be their political enemies. Keith Ellison and Tim Walls. Yes, it is about the saying, we are not going to send the money that Congress has appropriated for SNAP and for agricultural projects. And yes, it is about give us your voting rolls so that we can control what happens in the election in 2026. And Minnesota is basically saying, like, leave us the fuck alone.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Nah.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Am I allowed to.

[Tim Miller]

No, thanks.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Am I allowed to swear on this podcast? I forgot to ask.

[Tim Miller]

I was supposed to swear on the podcast, and you were supposed to be Minnesota. Nice. But, you know, things have changed. We can do a role reversal. Please swear.

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[Tim Miller]

All right, let's. Let's talk about what's happened in the Senate. So we're in this partial DHS shutdown now over this fight?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Well, except for the $75 billion that they have.

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Right.

[Tim Miller]

But, yes, that's not like a real shutdown. But. But you know, the funding has been approved. We would have an internal discussion here at the board because it's not that. It's actually not that easy of a call. Right? Like, it's easy to sit on the Internet and be like, don't give them anything. You know, fight, fight, fight. And like, that appeals to me deeply on an emotional level. Like, on the other Hand when you think about whatever city they go to next and the folks that are still here, like some meaningful concessions would be good. Like I would like to be able to see these guys faces, you know, just like every other public servant. Right. And so if you could get meaningful consent. So how are you thinking about that right now? Like, you know, are there things on the table they could bring that it would be worth coming to a deal on or is it just. No, no. Hard. No.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Well, so I am in a phase of really looking at harm mitigation. We need to minimize, mitigate the harm of what they are doing here in Minnesota and what they will do to the next place that they go. And so, you know, that is why I think we have to be serious about trying to get wring some concessions out of them. And let's be clear, we're not asking like I think that this agency needs to be ripped down to the studs. I think we need to start over. We need to start with a blank piece of paper and reimagine what it should look like.

[Tim Miller]

That's the moderate position now, right?

[Senator Tina Smith]

That's the moderate position now. But that's not what I'm talking about now. I'm talking about just basically saying these federal law enforcement people need to comply with the same laws that any local police department complies by. And yet they don't seem able to even get there. It doesn't seem like they're there yet. And so what does that say about them? That they cannot even have the basic constitutional protections apply to these, this sort of masked secret police force that's been raiding our cities?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no, it's for our friends, everything for our enemies, the law. Right. Like they don't feel like they have to follow the law, you know, or, and I think that essentially the entire Republican Senate, except maybe Rand Paul. Right. Is essentially okay with how ICE has been acting. They want them to be able to act with impunity and be a quasi Trump secret police. So if that is their position, like where does this end?

[Senator Tina Smith]

So where do we go? Right, where do we go? Yeah. So you know, my, my view of it is that I won't vote for another penny for ICE and border protection. And we need to understand that they already have because of the big, so called big beautiful bill.

[Tim Miller]

They have what a ludicrous amount of money. More money than the Marines. More money than Israel's military.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Exactly. So I mean, so they're not. And you know, people will say, well we should be funding, you know, what's the rest of Department of Homeland Security, you've got fema, you've got the Coast Guard people that are actually contributing to the public safety of this country rather than tearing apart the public safety of this country. But I mean, they've got plenty of money. What we need to do, I think right now is to stand firm on this principle because if we don't, they're just going to do it again someplace else.

[Tim Miller]

What's your, what's your read of the. Among your colleagues? Are folks with you or are people getting a little wishy washy?

[Senator Tina Smith]

I think that, you know, we'll take it a week at a time, but I think that people are pretty strong on this. And everybody knows what I know, which is that they, you know, they have all this money. And so it's not as if you are starving the beast. The beef has, the beast has enough food for, you know, four, five, six years.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Senator Tina Smith]

So.

[Tim Miller]

And that's the challenge for next year. You won't be there. But, you know, you could give your advice from the outside in the TMNT podcast about clawing that money back.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Yes, that is exactly.

[Tim Miller]

Next step.

[Senator Tina Smith]

That's a good point.

[Tim Miller]

The other thing that I wish was coming before the Senate, but I don't think so. I saw some news this morning we might be going to war with Iran. Just see that. It feels like you should have some say in that. Have you, have you got a call from Pete Hegseth?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Strangely, nobody has called to ask whether I've given my approval for that.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't believe the 2001 Iraq AUMF qualifies here because Iran and Iraq kind of sound the same.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Yeah, no, no, I don't think that.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think that works. But I mean, it's, I don't know if you know any more than I do, but it seems like they're maybe planning on going forward with more military action there without any congressional approval.

[Senator Tina Smith]

But this massive buildup that's happening and no conversation with, as far as that I'm aware of, with, you know, any of the, you know, the Gang of Eight or any of the leaders of Congress. And I mean, the question is, and really the question is

[Tim Miller]

when are the

[Senator Tina Smith]

Republicans in the Senate gonna go hold the phone like I'm over here, the

[Tim Miller]

legislative branch, maybe the America first senators. Where's Josh Hawley on this? Like what?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Right. Exactly. I mean, the unwillingness to stand up. And I think that, you know, my party needs to also be really, really clear that we're not gonna just, you know, go along to get along with this kind of radical behavior that we're seeing.

[Tim Miller]

And is this an area to fight on with the party? Because I do think sometimes Democrats get a little worried. Look, I used to be a neocon, all right, I want freedom for the Iraqi, for the Iranian people. I just fooled my, I just tricked myself with the Iraq Iran. But I want them to be free at the same time. This is, this is absurd. You know, I mean, like the president is acting totally lawlessly. We cannot trust him. We cannot trust the clown running dodge. Like just even if it happened to work out by accident, still, like the Democrats should be against this. It seems to me on policy, on the politics of it. I don't think the American people want this. But sometimes I do feel like Democrats get a little bit worried to be hard line on this stuff because like, what if it turns out okay? You know, like we've seen this in the past on or I don't want to be seen as being too much of a peacenik. You know, there are just these political considerations. But I think the Democrats should be balls to the wall on this. Like, no war with Iran.

[Senator Tina Smith]

No, I do. I totally, I totally agree. And I think that, like, we all need to like, people who are in elected office, people who are in the Senate and in Congress need to understand that like, Americans can hold more than one idea in their brain at a time. People are smart and they don't, you know, people, people don't wake up every day and go, oh, like I'm a Democrat, I need to take my kids to school, or I'm a Republican, I what am I going to fix for dinner? But they know when they're being lied to and they know when they are being just trampled on. And Democrats, I think any party but Democrats right now need to show that we can fight for them. And whether it is on, no, I'm not going to send your kids to the Middle east to die in a war that you have no reason to want to be in. Yes, I'm going to care about lowering your prescription drug costs, but I'm also going to fight for your freedom. I don't have to just do one thing right.

[Tim Miller]

All of them, all of the above. So we're counting you on as a no on a Pete Hegseth run war in Iran. That's a no for you. Okay, good.

[Senator Tina Smith]

That's right.

[Tim Miller]

That's it.

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[Tim Miller]

to the section of my notes called Loser Republicans. So here we go. Why not start with Pete? He was supposed to be at the towards the end, but he's from here, right? He's one of your great Minnesotans.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Not too many people.

[Tim Miller]

You guys said there was something special about your state. You know, people came together. What happened to Pete? Did you guys not bring him enough hot dishes?

[Senator Tina Smith]

See, these are the Minnesotans that didn't care that the weather was really terrible tonight and they still came out.

[Tim Miller]

So what do we think? What's happening over there? You know, do you have any oversight of Pete Heiken? Yeah, what's your, what's your. Pete Hague. I just want you to kind of cook on Pete Hegseth for a minute. Okay.

[Senator Tina Smith]

All right.

[Tim Miller]

Your fellow Minnesotan.

[Senator Tina Smith]

I mean, what a. What a loser, right? I mean, not only is he incompetent, not only can you just tell that the generals don't, you know, have any real respect for him. I mean, how about when he called like every general from around the whole world in for like a class meeting so he could tell them that we like, we're gonna be, we're gonna be tougher now.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we're gonna butch up.

[Senator Tina Smith]

And that's exactly. And is that like really a safe idea from a national security perspective to have everybody in one room? I mean, I would say my only

[Tim Miller]

problem with that is I kind of did want him to make everyone in the chain of command do like a push up contest and then like a one mile run. Cause I'd be interested to see how the top would do. I'm not sure what the Commander in Chief would have done in that.

[Senator Tina Smith]

What was the thing that RFK Jr did with kid Rock Y Sauna? And maybe we should all be doing that. I don't know. Not me.

[Tim Miller]

Were you giving that a close look?

[Senator Tina Smith]

That was really, really. What was it? I read someplace online somebody was like, could we just please be normal?

[Tim Miller]

No is the answer to that rhetorical question. I want to talk about Mike Lee also. He's another colleague of yours you had a confrontation with. He posts a lot on social media and was posting a lot of things that were not true.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

What was. How's that going? Are you guys seeing each other in the lunchroom or. Tell us about you and Mike Lee.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Well, so you all know the story, I think, about how I wanted to talk with Mike Lee personally about the posts that he put up about our dear Melissa Hortman. Just yesterday, we was the first day of the legislative session in Minnesota, and there was a big acknowledgement of Melissa. The first day that everybody was back in Congress, I mean, in the state capitol after that happened. And I mean, Tim, I would say that Mike Lee is the kind of person who is not used to having people actually confront him directly, like in a person to person way about, like, the bad shit that he did.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And you notice he doesn't go out of the Fox safe space. We've invited Mike Lee onto the podcast to discuss. He's not interested.

[Senator Tina Smith]

He seemed like, truly. When I confronted that, he was like, truly sort of like, nonplussed. He didn't even know really what to do.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Like, why are you mad? It's Twitter.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Right, Exactly.

[Tim Miller]

You're just smearing. You're doing.

[Senator Tina Smith]

This is real life. This was my friend. People in Minnesota feel really are hurt by this. So now when we cross each other occasionally in the hallways of the United States Congress, he usually is looking at his shoes.

[Tim Miller]

He's looking at his shoes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. This takes us back to the aforementioned former colleague, J.D. vance. I guess by the time he was in the Senate, he had already made the full turn. Right. The full mega turn. So you didn't even really know before this iteration of jdi. And he's on his fourth name, his second religion, his second political ideology. But, like, what, you know, were you getting anything different from him in the Senate than what we're seeing now?

[Senator Tina Smith]

So in the Senate, JD Was one of those people who could be like one moment, like, super charming and really friendly and all smiles and sweetness and light as My mother would have said. And then the next minute, he's in a committee hearing where I served with him on the Banking Housing Committee. He's in a committee hearing, you know, grilling some poor witness about how we wouldn't have a housing shortage in this country if all the illegal. In his words, the illegal aliens weren't filling up all the houses.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Senator Tina Smith]

And so you kind of. I mean, just sort of like, well,

[Tim Miller]

tell me more about the sweetness and light. I don't get to see that much of him. What was it like? What does nice JD Sound like?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Do you know people who are really good at, like, flipping on the nice light?

[Tim Miller]

That's a talented Mr. Ripley thing.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Yeah. And then. And then. And then it flips right off again. And you really wonder, what's the real deal?

[Tim Miller]

But you think, you know, he's concerning to me for that reason. I think that people. Because he's. He is extremely unappealing as a person. Like, he is, like, one of the most unappealing people. And so, yeah, so for those of us, we look at him and we're like, this guy. But, like, he has a way about him that he is able to explain, like, deeply offensive and pernicious points of view, but make it seem like it's the common sense view. Like, he's good at that. He's skilled at that.

[Senator Tina Smith]

That is true.

[Tim Miller]

And I worry about him because he seems to have taken, like. I think he's been pretty much on board, not pretty much, like, fully on board with the Minnesota program. Like, and I think that a J.D. vance presidency would maybe be, in some ways, be, like, less crazy than Trump. He probably wouldn't be up, you know, like, weird tweeting at night. But, like, the ideological.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Maybe he's more disciplined.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but the ideological program, the Stephen Miller program, that's just what we'd be getting.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Totally. And, you know, remember when it was shortly after Renee Goode was shot and killed and we could all see the video, and Vance stood there and said, These officers have 100% immunity. Yeah, that's what he said. He later tried to deny it. There's no such thing as 100% immunity. That's right. There isn't. But that's what he tried to claim.

[Tim Miller]

It's like he chose to go out, and that was so notable to me. It's like they killed somebody.

[Senator Tina Smith]

It's not like he's trying to distance himself from the worst of what this administration is doing. No, he's trying to own it. He's trying to lead it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, he was the vp, Right. So after your masked goons murder somebody in the street, as the vice president, you could just like take the day off, right? Or like try to focus on oversight or do stuff behind the scenes to try to reach out to the community. He chose to do the press secretary's job that day and to inflame and needle more. Is it because he's a douchebag, do you think?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Or that's what. That's the feedback from the audience.

[Tim Miller]

Do you concur?

[Senator Tina Smith]

See, I'm still in the Senate, so there are some things I won't say.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, so you're not going to concur on that? We're going to count Senator Tina Smith as A. Maybe J.D. vance being a douchebag. I want to ask about. You mentioned Katie Britt, which I was happy about because I got rankled a little bit by a New York Times article about Katie Britt a couple weeks ago where she was discussing with the reporter how moved she was by Liam Ramos and how upset she was and how she was doing so much behind the scenes. Apparently she called you and she called Christi Noem and she wanted to get something done. And yet she's the subcommittee chair that oversees a lot of this stuff.

[Senator Tina Smith]

It's a very powerful role on the Occupation.

[Tim Miller]

She could stop this right now. And so when you talk to her, help me understand. Has she convinced herself she's actually helping? I mean, or is it I don't. You help me understand what's going on with Katie Britt.

[Senator Tina Smith]

So, you know, I'll just say this. You know when you're in a negotiation with somebody and you are trying to see whether you can accomplish. Whether you can accomplish something in the negotiation, and then basically you're saying, I'd like to help you, I'd like to work with you, but crazy Uncle Albert over here won't let me.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure.

[Senator Tina Smith]

And this is, I think, what a lot of my Republican colleagues do when it comes to trying to address what is clearly the illegality and the immorality of this administration. They're like, you know, there's. I get what you're saying and I'd like to do something about it, but I can't do it until. I can't do it until after the primaries. I can't do it because this person won't let me. And I think that when I read that New York Times story about how heart rending it was for Katie to hear about Liam, you know, I sent her a message and I said, you know, the Trump administration is threatening to redetain Liam's dad. And you obviously care so much about this. Could you, like, what are you going to do to make sure that that doesn't happen? And she said, oh, I will look into that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Senator Tina Smith]

So.

[Tim Miller]

Well, that was nice of you to do that. I think that's important and grown up. And I'm not in the Senate because I would be like, you funded this. She did this to Liam. They did it. Like, they wouldn't have the money for all these goons if the Republican Senate didn't do it. John Thune did it. Like, not Crazy Uncle Donald, right? Like, not Stephen Miller, actually.

[Senator Tina Smith]

That's not the Academy.

[Tim Miller]

Jonathan Thune has agency and they did it. They funded these guys.

[Senator Tina Smith]

That is exactly right.

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[Tim Miller]

This is the hard part of the podcast. We have to do a little bit of, like, reflection on the Democrats for one second. We're here in Minnesota, so I have a Minnesota themed reflection on the Democrats. I think I'm going to get some booze about this one, but I'm just going to say it anyway. Do you have to apologize to Dean Phillips? Was Dean Phillips right? I think Dean Phillips was right. Fair.

[Senator Tina Smith]

I'm shaking. For those who are only watching the audio, I'm only listening to the audio. I'm shaking my head.

[Tim Miller]

That's a no. We don't think so. I mean, he was right. We can take the apology out of it. He was Kind of right. Was he kind of right

[Senator Tina Smith]

in the end? At the end of the day, Joe Biden never should have run for president again.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, we're gonna count that.

[Senator Tina Smith]

But the way in which Dean went about it was not useful, did not accomplish anything. And I felt at the time that I want to pile on. I don't want to pile on to what, you know, everything that's gone on since then. But I told it the way I saw it in the moment, and I don't apologize for that.

[Tim Miller]

I have apologized to him already. His mother's a listener, so hopefully she'll appreciate that because. Yeah, I don't know. I think he had it, unfortunately. Okay, one more. Not you, per se, but the Democrats in retrospect. Seems I kind of missed it on the Al Franken thing, too, in retrospect. I know that. I know you ended up in the Senate because of that. So that was good. Like, there was some good outcomes. But, like, just setting your. That part aside, your personal interests, what do you think? Was that a miss in retrospect with the Democrats a little too hard on him?

[Senator Tina Smith]

That is like an almost impossible question for me to answer. But not that I haven't thought about this a lot.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I'm sure.

[Senator Tina Smith]

And I mean, first of all, wasn't like, I was sitting in the wings saying, oh, great, maybe something terrible will happen so I can become a United States senator. That was not. That was not at all what was going on in my life or anybody's life in Minnesota. And Al was a really, really good senator. He was a really good senator. And, like, what happened in that incredibly complex, like, multi, you know, several week period, if it had happened at any other time in the history of our country, I don't think it would have ended the same way.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Senator Tina Smith]

But, you know, like, what had. What was going on. What was going on here in Minnesota with issues around MeToo? What was going on in Washington, D.C. what was going on with. What was his name, Roy Moore? It all snowballed in a way that was terribly harsh.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And I just think sometimes, you know, my point in asking. It is not as I got you, but it's like sometimes it is important for the Democrats to reflect that there is this. There's this imbalance. It feels like. Right. Where the Democrats hold themselves and the media holds Democrats to this really high standard. Right. And it's like Al Franken gets run out on the rail for something that's like, pretty borderline, and he's a comedian. It's kind of like we can have some grace. And like, meanwhile, like the two time President of the United States is an avowed sexual predator.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Right?

[Tim Miller]

Like an admitted sexual predator. Like he admitted it on radio. I like to, I like to sexually assault women. It's one of the benefits of this job. And that's frustrating. And I just think that going forward, it doesn't mean the Democrats should have, shouldn't have standards, but maybe, maybe they should like be a little bit more, you know, mercenary.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Well, it's an interesting question, right, because we, I mean, we do hold our leaders to a very, to a different standard. And yet I don't always think that the standard is the right standard. I mean, like, are we looking for people who are perfect on paper or are we looking for people who actually can connect and communicate and who are not afraid to risk, to take some risks in order to get something done? And not just something done, but in order to fix the dramatic income and inequality in this country, in order to address the deep unfairness that exists in this country and in order to challenge the status quo and not be safe all the time in the things that you do. And so to me, that's what we should be looking for. Not like, you know, not going after people's private lives.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, no, that kind of takes you to one of my hobby horses. It's like sometimes you need rough around the edges people to do to achieve those things. Sometimes you need people that have flaws in their past or did stupid Reddit posts to think about one Senate candidate or whatever. Sometimes you need people like that. Right. And I do think the Democrats have been selecting a little bit for people who were sitting in the front row of class and like raising their hands and never got any demerits and don't like to rock the boat, you know, and Al Franken rocked the boat a little bit.

[Senator Tina Smith]

I totally agree with that. People who are people, you have to. I mean, right now, the United States Senate, just as one example, is fundamentally broken and it's not going to get better by people who are not willing to rock the boat and challenge what is so wrong about how the Senate works. So I agree with you. I didn't realize I was wasting $415 a month until I downloaded Rocket Money. I thought I had my finances under control until the app laid out all my spending and categorized it for me. Takeout shopping and unused subscriptions were quietly draining my account, and as a result, my savings took a backseat. But rocket money doesn't just tell you what you're wasting money on. It takes action to save you money. First, the app looks at your income and monthly expenses and calculates how much you can safely spend each day to stay under budget. Rocket Money also fines and cancels unwanted subscriptions for you, and even negotiates better rates on your bills so you have more money in your pocket. On average, Rocket Money members can save up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features. Users love the app with over 186,000 five star ratings. It's time to simplify your finances and take control of your Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Cancel to get started. That's RocketMoney.com Cancel RocketMoney.com Cancel

[Tim Miller]

all right, we're going to end with some fun Mount Rushmore theme questions. Donald Trump wants to be on Mount Rushmore. Where are you on that? Are you a yes or a no?

[Senator Tina Smith]

I'm opposed. I'm opposed to that.

[Tim Miller]

Right, so we'll start with the mean ones. Back to our loser Republican category. If you had to make a Mount Rushmore of Republican and MAGA figures that are the most annoying to you, who would your top four be, do you think? Who gets your blood pressure up the highest of your top four?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Hegseth, RFK junior Jada Vance, and Stephen Miller.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, that's a great list. Okay.

[Senator Tina Smith]

I mean, how do you think, do you think that things would be, like, dramatically different in right now if Stephen Miller just, like, went away?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know how to do that, but I do think so.

[Senator Tina Smith]

I'm not suggesting that we should do it. I'm just.

[Tim Miller]

I didn't think you were suggesting that. I do. I mean, I think that he, you know, I think that he has a lot of hobby horses. He's running roughshod around there, you know, And I think that, I don't think Donald Trump, this is not to absolve him at all because obviously, all his faults, but, like, cares about the particulars of what's happening here. Right. Like, he wants there to be stories of immigrants getting deported. Like, he's not down in the nitty gritty. Like, it's Stephen Miller's obsessions that are driving a lot of this. No, I think absolutely for sure.

[Senator Tina Smith]

I think he is so ideological. Trump is driven by power, and Miller seems, seems to me to be driven by ideology and a really cruel and heartless ideology. And so I think that's right.

[Tim Miller]

All right. On the more positive side, we're honoring Minnesotans here. So if you created a, if we put a. Do you even have A mountain in Minnesota. Do we have any mountains? Do we have a hill?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Yeah, yeah. Mount Lutzen. We have some mountains up by Lake Superior.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. So if we were gonna. We have.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Our mountain is a hill.

[Tim Miller]

Is a hill. Okay. What was it called?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Buck Hill.

[Tim Miller]

Buck Hill. Okay.

[Senator Tina Smith]

That's where Lindsey Graham learned how to. Lindsey Von learned how to ski.

[Tim Miller]

Created a monument on Buck Hill to four great Minnesotans. Who would you want to have on the Buck Hill? Mount Rushmore?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Four great Minnesotans. Yeah. This is good. They're really. So what the audience is suggesting, and I would agree with, is Paul Wellstone. And so here's an. This is interesting. It's part of the conversation that we're having. When Paul Wellstone ran for Senate in 1990, nobody thought he was going to win. He was rough around the edges. He had never really been elected to anything before. And he was considered to be way too radical to win statewide and Minnesota. And he won. And he was an incredible senator. And I think he is a bit of a model right now for the kind of leaders that we need in Washington who aren't afraid to challenge the conventional wisdom. We could do a poll.

[Tim Miller]

Any other ones? You don't have any other nominations?

[Senator Tina Smith]

Oh, gosh. I mean, right now. Yeah. Prince. We are hearing Prince. Bob Dylan.

[Tim Miller]

A hockey player. Maybe Kirby Puckett. World Be Free. Anthony Edwards. Okay, we're gonna workshop it.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Yeah, I know.

[Tim Miller]

We're gonna workshop it. We know. We've got Wellstone and Bob Dylan and Prince. That's not a bad start. We need a woman. Put a woman on there. Who's the famous. Not. Probably not you.

[Senator Tina Smith]

No, I couldn't put myself on Amy Klobuchar.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. Okay, well, our next governor is Judy Garland from Minnesota.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Yeah, Judy Garland is in Minnesota.

[Tim Miller]

How about that? Hot damn, Judy Garland. Okay, okay, that's enough suggestions. That's enough suggestions. We get it. You guys have a lot of famous people from here for some reason. Last thing. Why are you leaving? Because it's just, you know, this time.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Well, Joe Biden, I mean, I'm going to be 68 in about three weeks and only in the United States Senate.

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[Senator Tina Smith]

You could be 68 and you're like fresh blood in the United States Senate. But, I mean, I will have done this job for nine years. That's actually the longest I've ever done any job. What's the longest you've ever done a job?

[Tim Miller]

God, this job. I'm on year three. It feels like a decade. I don't know. Yeah. Probably five or six years. Yeah.

[Senator Tina Smith]

So I actually believe that it is. One of the important things about leadership is to do a really good job, do the best job that you can, and then open the door for the next leader to come in. I don't suffer under the delusion that a lot of people in politics do, which is that I'm the only one who can do this job.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Senator Tina Smith]

And there are. There are. There's an incredible group of leaders that I know are more than ready to do this job. I've endorsed Peggy Flanagan to be my successor. And. But it's not up to me. It's up to Minnesota to figure it out. And there's going to be a. There's going to be a spirited competition, and I think that that is good for our democracy to not have people who just stay there forever.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. I appreciate that. And one thing, these guys, you know, if it was a worse political year for you, I'd be like, tina, what are you doing? Okay, I gotta hold this seat. But these guys have created a backlash in this state, and it's not just in that senate race, but it's state house and state. And the state legislature. Those races. It is time to put it on them this year.

[Senator Tina Smith]

I feel so confident. I feel so confident that this will be a good year, and I'm excited

[Tim Miller]

to see what's on Governor Wallace. I want you guys to put it on him in the state legislature, and then we're gonna. Gavin Newsom this bitch next time. He said that there are some legal issues with that, and I was like, that's a problem for Amy, I guess. I don't know. Well, she'll have to deal with it. Senator Tina Smith, thank you so much.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Thank you, Tim.

[Rocket Money Advertiser 2]

All right.

[Senator Tina Smith]

Thank you.

[Tim Miller]

Appreciate it. Singing through the bloody mist we'll take our stand for this land and the

[Senator Tina Smith]

stranger in our midst.