Tim Miller (2:58)

And it was his whole brand, I think, is the other thing. Like the 50th birthday book. I've been going through the letters. There weren't jokes about other stuff. You know what I mean? Every joke I've been to some gay birthday, gay 40th. There are some Grinder jokes. There are some things like that that happen, but also the other interests of the person come up totally. Music or H or whatever. Like, there's no other interests in this book. Everything is about young women, but that's it.

Stephanie Rule (3:26)

There's no other. And it's not even like you like to party, you like to travel. It's like you like them young and hot and dirty and naughty. And I'm like. And think about it. Every person who participated in that birthday book has a PR department, okay? Has one or two assistants. And no one thought to say, dial it back on this. Which just makes me think they were so far off the rails. And this is why there is a huge appetite where people are like, dude, just release the files. And it's important to remember, and I'm certainly not forgiving Donald Trump. He's one of many, many, many, not just in this book, but in Jeffrey Epstein's web. Not the only political figure.

Tim Miller (4:13)

Yeah, it's not a great list to be on. There's the woman who is one of his victims, who's in the book. And she writes thanking him. And I say victim because she was young initially when he had groomed her or whatever. But he's like, thanks to you, I've met Prince Andrew, President Clinton, Donald Trump, Kevin Spacey, Michael Jackson. Not really the list you want to be on if you're the president. Michael Jackson, Kevin Spacey, Prince Andrew. And it's again, it's not even just the party boys. It wouldn't be good to be gross and yucky if it was just Donald Trump and the party boys of the 80s, but it's like a bunch of pedos. It's a bunch of pedos. That's what's on the list.

Stephanie Rule (4:53)

When you think even about these women who were. Who were targeted. Right? So, like, I have definitely been in some crazy, unsavory. I can't believe I'm here. How on earth did we, like, wake up in New York City and two days later we're in a different country?

Tim Miller (5:10)

Know what that separate podcast about that. My interest is peaked.

Stephanie Rule (5:14)

Okay? Like, I know what that.

Tim Miller (5:15)

That's for Bullock plus members only. We'll be doing more on that.

Stephanie Rule (5:19)

I know what that's like, but I also know what that's like as a, as a grown woman with a college education and a career. Okay? These were young, young women with almost no education who were pulled out of high risk situations at home in hopes that, that like, you become a massage therapist, maybe you get a job at a spa or a resort or what, because their situations were so bad. And think about what they were thrust into with these people. It's just horrible in every single way.

Tim Miller (5:53)

Yeah. Okay, last thing on this, I was annoyed by some of your competitors. We won't name anybody who are doing this thing now with the Trump book and the News face where they have to be like, now there's no evidence of wrongdoing with Trump. And to me, I'm kind of like, okay, well, if you want to say there's no. He's not been charged with anything, or there's no evidence of pedophilia, like, okay, but there's like a decent amount of evidence of wrongdoing at this point. Right. I mean, a. They're covering this stuff up. We've learned there was another letter in there that mentioned him with this check of that, you know, that that was from Trump to Epstein. Allegedly like a very bought a woman. It was a gag check, I guess, but still pretty gross. Multiple of the women have said Epstein brought them to Trump Tower. I interviewed Stacey Williams, who said that she was of age then, but she said that Epstein brought her to Trump Tower and he groped her. That's her allegation. Right. So I do feel like there's people that are kind of scared to just say the truth here, which is that, like, we don't actually know the extent yet, and there's obviously a cover up and there has obviously been some type of wrongdoing. Right. Like, that's okay to say.

Stephanie Rule (6:57)

Yes. But I don't know that people are scared to tell the truth. People are scared that their news organization won't exist anymore and they won't be able to cover any of this. So I would push back on you that we're now in such an oppressed situation where you have a president who's threatening to sue you and wipe you off the face of the earth and would like to, if you're a news organization or you're a public figure that's critical of him. And so if people are being extra, extra careful in how they couch things to protect themselves from a legal standpoint, knowing how dangerous these times are, so be it. I'm glad those news organizations exist, and I'm glad people are covering those stories. You disagree?

Tim Miller (7:46)

They're scared. No, they're scared. They're a little scared. That's fine. For some legitimate reasons because some of their corporate bosses have folded at the other companies.

Stephanie Rule (7:55)

Okay, but hold on. They're also scared because they don't want to get fired. They don't want to lose their job, they don't want to get sued. Think about these reporters at the Wall Street Journal who are reporting on the birthday book. Like Trump is suing News Corp. I mean, it's like out of Dr. Evil for $10 billion. Do you know what I mean?

Tim Miller (8:15)

Yeah. No, it's intimidation, I guess. That's point. Intimidation works. I guess. It's just.

Stephanie Rule (8:20)

But they're still covering the student. No, intimidation really would be working if we weren't talking about this.

Tim Miller (8:25)

That's right.

Stephanie Rule (8:25)

Donald Trump wants this not covered at all. Right. And now that he's onto this new line. It's a hoax. Well, what's a hoax? It's a hoax that Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile. It's a hoax that Ghislaine Maxwell was also involved in this. All these hundred women who have come forward, are they lying? Like, he's not even articulating what the hoax is. And so the fact that this remains in the news, I don't think people are as intimidated and scared as you're intimating.

Tim Miller (8:52)

Great point. And to this point, while we're defending the honor of journalists. That was a good point. I mean, I was still. I think some of the stuff that we've seen on some where we're like, well, I have to caveat that there's no wrongdoing. There's wrongdoing here. But anyway, while we're defending the honor of journalists, Maggie Haberman on that very point was awesome. In the press briefing yesterday, I didn't have this poll, but I'll put it in the show notes. She gets a lot of heat, but she was like, to Caroline, she's like, what is the hoax exactly? Is the signature of the hoax? Is the friendship the hoax? And they just can't answer it. It's just. They're just like.

Stephanie Rule (9:26)

Because hoax is like the code word in MAGA world. So, like, even in the Jeffrey Epstein case, where you've got the Lauren Boeberts and the Tom Masseys and the Marjorie Taylor Greene's who are like, we want more information. It's like as soon as the White House rolls out the word hoax, they're like, it is a hoax. Hoax. You know what I mean? Like, that's like. That's the kryptonite. And I. Good on Maggie Hamerman to just say, I'm gonna press pause to you, press secretary to the President. Explain to me what's the hoax. Those hundred women who were out there demanding justice while you ordered a flyover with our tax dollars for no reason.

Tim Miller (10:05)

Yeah, that was more than I expected. But once we start hearing about Stephanie's trips to Dubai, you know, we gotta.

Stephanie Rule (10:13)

Keep talking about it and think we're not gonna get into it.

Tim Miller (10:15)

Yeah, okay. Deleteme makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online. At a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable, it's easier than ever to find personal information about people online. Having your address, phone number, and family members names hanging out on the Internet can have actual consequences in the real world. More and more online partisans and nefarious actors will find this data and use it to target civil servants, political foes, and even outspoken citizens posting their opinions online. As somebody with an active online presence who has people that want to give me shit online, this is something that's important to me. Obviously, it's something I've experienced sometimes just from exuberant podcast listeners, which, you know, I appreciate the love, but let's not be creepy about it. Also from foes like people sending weird threats, avenging before. Kind of an email targeting bomb I was the target of recently. I know some of my colleagues have dealt with all this, so have appreciated the opportunity to use Delete Me and help make that harder for people that want to make my life miserable. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your delete me plan. When you go to JoinDeleteMe.com bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com bulwark code bulwark economy, we added 900. We being the United States, added 911,000 fewer jobs between March 2024 and March 2025 than previously estimated 900,000, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Like, a lot of elements there. Like, one, the economy is worse than we thought. It seems like, number two, this adds to the Trump ability to just sort of eliminate the credibility of statistics coming from our government. You know, they're going to weaponize this. What is happening with all that? What's your, what's your take on, on that news?

Stephanie Rule (12:20)

So I'm going to say multiple things, but like, yes, this is definitely going to feed Trump's argument that, like, the BLS sucks, their data sucks, blah, blah, blah. So I'm going to give an analogy that I'm stealing from Daniel Koh, who used to be with the Labor Department, who said Trump going after the BLS and the numbers is like slashing your neighbor's tires at midnight and in the morning waking up and screaming and yelling that their cars is sitting in your front yard. This administration has been aggressively cutting the budgets, cutting staff. Like the group within the BLS that is designed to figure out how do we use better measures, how do we optimize things? He wiped that group out. When I see these numbers, when I see these revisions, I think about investors, I think about farmers, I think about business people, I think about every type of business person out there. Farmers aren't using this number that much, but all different business verticals that depend on these numbers to plan. When we get giant swings like this, it's hugely frustrating. However, I understand why we get these giant revisions. It's a sign when we are in an economy where you get really big revisions, it means there's a giant shift, something is happening, right? A very big shakeup. So I think there's multiple components that.

Tim Miller (13:37)

Like, we have multiple shakeups happening now. Huge immigration shifts, tariff shifts, right? And so it's like.

Stephanie Rule (13:42)

And that's deeply impacted, right? I'll make this last point. So for anybody who says, like, I don't know, things aren't so crazy, the stock market is still up, let's pretend you're the CEO of a company and I'm an investor. If I'm an investor, all the Trump news tariffs, no tariffs, that's fine for me as an investor, volatility is part of the game. At 2pm I can buy an entire portfolio of stocks and at 2:05, I can sell my entire portfolio. That's me. But if you are a CEO of a company, it takes you months and months and years to plan your business, to plan acquisitions, to plan growth opportunities, to plan hiring, to plan firing. So real businesses, where you have hiring, that's where you're seeing this huge disruption, these giant swings. I mean, lots of the biggest investors out there have less than 50 employees, right? They're sitting in front of a computer, you know, in Bermuda, for goodness sakes. So anybody who says there's not a big disruption, the market's fine. The market and the economy are two different things. And getting these giant revisions is another sign that we are having huge disruptions in our economy.

Tim Miller (14:51)

The one thing, I guess, is it will give Trump what he wants by accident on the rate cuts. And I do think that it also. We might do just a tiny bit of Biden at the very end with the new Kamala book. But it also does, I think, put a little bit of a different perspective on what the real. The state of the real economy was in 2024, which is you have some people, some people in democratic world and Biden defenders who want to be like, everything was really great. It was just a vibe session. And it was kind of not like we were already kind of soft in 2024. It seems like in addition to inflation, we were.

Stephanie Rule (15:25)

And inflation was a bear. And because the Fed had to set rates where they were, it made it more difficult for businesses to operate right. Like that just is what it is. The economy was fine. The economy wasn't booming under Biden. Inflation was a problem. But I just would take you back to remember, the president said he was gonna lower prices day one. We were supposed to get this flurry of business booming, booming, booming. And we haven't. What we have is the biggest companies in the world who have something to offer. Donald Trump going to the White House, tap dancing for them, getting side deals cut for themselves, getting exemptions, getting no regulations. And their businesses are only growing. If you're a business that doesn't have something to offer this White House or the Trump business universe, you are struggling, right? Listen to any of the big retailers.

Tim Miller (16:20)

Manufacturing companies drink deer this week.

Stephanie Rule (16:22)

I mean, last week, Donald Trump. Donald Trump said, I can't wait next year when I'm walking in the palaces of genius. When he was talking to the tech leaders, I'm like, what palaces of genius is he talking about? As manufacturing numbers are showing you that they're going down, manufacturing, what we have is an AI boom that could actually end up being a bubble, and that's also masking things.

Tim Miller (16:43)

So Jamie Dimon, yesterday on CNBC saying the economy's weakening. He's not sure if we're on the way to recession or not, but it's definitely weakening. We were joking together offline about Scott Besant on the Sunday shows this weekend, trying to do don't believe your lying eyes. Things are fine. Actually, don't listen to Jamie Dimon. Don't listen to Goldman Sachs. Okay? Listen to me. A failed hedge fund investor, but that's it.

Stephanie Rule (17:07)

He even got. He gave Kristen Welker this weird attitude when Chris and Welker was literally just giving the definition.

Tim Miller (17:15)

We call that serving face of the.

Stephanie Rule (17:17)

Way tariffs work, that they are a hidden tax on the American consumer and American businesses. And he got real smirky snarky at her and he's like, you got that from Goldman Sachs? And she said, yeah, that's a Goldman Sachs report, right? A Goldman Sachs report. And he's like, I built my career trading against Goldman Sachs, and I built quite a career. Well, I would just say this. Every person that Scott Besant worked for, every major investor, and he worked for George Soros and he worked for Stan Druckenmiller. Stan Druckenmiller, the great, maybe the greatest living investor today. And I bet my life that sand Druckenmiller 100% knows who pays the tariffs, and it's ultimately the American consumer. And Scott is not being intellectually honest. And I think Wall street is giving him that pass because they still hold out for hope that he's the most rational, normal person in the White House. But he is absolutely hurting his credibility every time he goes on TV and is just dishonest about the tariffs.

Tim Miller (18:16)

And one last thing, the other thing they're hoping for is that the court over bails him out on the tariffs.

Stephanie Rule (18:20)

Okay? This is the whole thing. Trump's most graceful exit from the trade war would actually be the Supreme Court saying, yo, dude, for real, these things are illegal. You can't do them. Like, look at the case of Brazil, where everything has been, it's about trade deficits in Brazil. We have a trade surplus. And Trump said it out loud. He's doing this because he doesn't like the way Bolsonaro is being treated. I would bet my bottom dollar that Scott Bessant is behind his desk praying that the Supreme Court punts this, because if they do, Trump would get the exit he wants. Right? We won't get the trade war. Markets will soar, businesses will be thrilled, and he will get to get on his grievance soapbox and say, I wanted to bring back jobs. I do care about the heart of America, but the system, the man, the courts, they stopped me.

Tim Miller (19:11)

Yeah.

Stephanie Rule (19:12)

So we'll soon find out. If the courts knock it down, he's going to find other ways. It will continue to be a disruption.

Tim Miller (19:21)

Y'. All. Look, I've got a lot of strengths and weaknesses like everybody else in this world. And I'm just so thrilled we've got Sarah Longwell and others running the business around here because I just, I don't want to be in charge of things anymore. And one of the things that I found that I was not as good at, that I thought I would be, is hiring. It's a pain in the ass. It's harder than you think to do interviews. I trust my instincts. My instincts can be wrong. Sometimes it's hard to find diverse types of candidates. Get outside your bubble. Well, our sponsor today can help you solve all of that. It's ZipRecruiter. Well, the future of hiring looks much brighter because ZipRecruiter's latest tools and features help speed up finding the right people for your roles so you save valuable time. And now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com bulwark with ZipRecruiter's new advances, you can easily find and connect with qualified candidates in minutes. If you see a candidate you're really interested in, you can unlock their contact info instantly. Reach out to them. Make sure you can find the right person for the right job Sooner. No wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2. Use ZipRecruiter to save time hiring four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter. Get a quality candidate within the first day. And if you go to ZipRecruiter.com bulwark right now, you can try it out for free again. That's ziprecruiter.com bulwark ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire. All right, let's go back to the big tech roundtable last week. He had at the White House for dinner a bunch of people. Bill Gates, Zuckerberg, Altman, the all in podcast guys. Sundar was there a bunch of mid level tech CEOs. His finance chair was there. Wink, wink. Then there was also Tim Cook. All of these guys were pathetic. So I hate to single out Tim Cook, but I'm going to anyway. I want to listen to what Tim Cook said to Donald Trump at this roundtable with you.

Tim Cook (21:10)

Thank you, Mr. President.

Stephanie Rule (21:11)

Very very few people have been able to do what you've done. Congratulations.

Tim Cook (21:14)

Please.

Tim Miller (21:15)

Thank you, sir.

Tim Cook (21:15)

That means a lot to me. I want to thank you for including me this evening. It's incredible to be among everyone here, particularly you and the First Lady. I've always enjoyed having dinner and interacting. I want to thank you for setting the tone such that we could make a major investment in the United States and have some key manufacturing, advanced manufacturing here. I think that says a lot about your focus and your leadership, your focus on innovation. I also want to thank you, thank you again for helping American companies around the world. I want to thank the first lady for focusing on education.

Tim Miller (21:59)

It goes on another minute. Please stop. That's enough. It goes on another minute.

Stephanie Rule (22:04)

I want to thank you for learning that my last name is Cook and not Apple.

Tim Miller (22:09)

I want to thank the first lady for focus on Education. Is she focused on education? I don't. We follow this every day. What is she. What is even talking about?

Stephanie Rule (22:16)

That was. That was news to me. So here's where it's funny, but not Artificial intelligence is going to change every aspect of the way we work, live and play. We already know how damaging social media companies have been to us. Just yesterday there was a hearing on the Hill with two former Meta whistleblowers saying that the company new information about how some of their practices were harming or dangerous for young people. But they didn't care. They let it go because they wanted young people to be using their system because they were losing young people to TikTok.

Tim Miller (22:56)

Yeah.

Stephanie Rule (22:57)

And meta is doing nothing to change their practices.

Tim Miller (22:59)

They're making it worse. Really? Honestly?

Stephanie Rule (23:01)

Correct. No matter how many hearings the government has had, we've had no regulation of these social media giants. Like they truly are living the Mark Zuckerberg move fast and break things. Social media platforms that's in the rearview mirror. AI is the gargantuan future. Every person at that table was an enormous stakeholder in the AI universe. And they want to have control of how it's regulated, how they can build it and what it's going to look like here. And they will become masters of the universe. Giants among giants like we've never seen. So for them, one quick humiliating dinner. Great. They can erase that dinner. They can not listen to this podcast tune out of the news when they get back on their G5s and go home. And they got what they wanted. They danced for him and he was happy.

Tim Miller (23:47)

It's so embarrassing. They're just so cucked though. Isn't this the point of having we done this. That's the point of having fuck you money. I like, really? Zucker is another clip I didn't. Just because the audio is muffled, so I didn't play it. But, like, Zuck, okay, this is the most important. Zuck, like, Trump asked him how much money you're investing, and Zuck kind of stutter, stutter, stutters, then throws up a fake number. And then they catch him on a hot mic, like, leaning over to Trump saying, sorry, sir, I'm not sure what number you wanted me to go with.

Stephanie Rule (24:12)

Like, how insane is. I mean, literally, Mark Zuckerberg leans over and is like, sorry, I went off script for a second. Sorry I missed my line to the director of the show. And that's the most important point that you're making. Like, these people are rich beyond their wildest dreams. How much more do you want? Was it worth it to do that?

Tim Miller (24:38)

Apple's balance sheet is also huge. What do they need for that? Tim Cook could just not go. I'm not asking him to. To be the Bulwark podcast. I don't need Tim Cook live tweeting, shitposting the President. He's the CEO. He's got shareholders. I get it, but couldn't you dial it back 80%?

Stephanie Rule (24:54)

Jamie Dimon style.

Tim Miller (24:55)

Yeah, right. Jamie's fine.

Stephanie Rule (24:57)

Jamie Dimon was asked yesterday and was like, yeah, yo, it looks like the economy is slowing. Earlier this week, Ken Griffin of Citadel, like, one of the biggest hedge fund managers on the planet, who is a Republican, who left Chicago, hated Chicago, thought it was crime ridden, set up shop in Miami, blah, blah, blah. I mean, he's as Republican as it gets. He was out there very publicly this week saying how damaging it is for the President to go after the independence of the Fed. And what's so alarming and disturbing is how few voices of influence in the business community are saying anything. Right? They're either saying nothing or they're taking it to that tech dinner level where it's like, who, baby?

Tim Miller (25:39)

They're not going to regulate AI anyway. I don't know. And I guess if you're Tim Cook, maybe he worries that he targets you with tariffs of China. But I guess my beg to somebody like Tim Cook is, did you make him do it first? I don't know. Maybe I'll give you a pass. If you needed to go to the White House and tuck your tail between your legs, I know it would be bad. It'd be the sign that we're an authoritarian country. But could you at least stare him down? Could we play a little game of chicken because he's a wimp. He's a wimp. He always backs down. He tacos like, he's not really going to do this. He doesn't want people paying 800 or whatever, $8,000 for their iPhone, whatever it would be. He doesn't want that. People would be complaining about it. So stare him down.

Stephanie Rule (26:19)

Okay, you just hit the perfect point. Because the argument I've been trying to make somewhat in defense of the business community is if you're the CEO of a company, it's not your job to serve the American people. It's your job to serve your customers, to serve your shareholders, and to make sure your employees are there and thriving. So I completely agree. I don't expect a CEO to go Ben and Jerry style and rage against the machine. However, there is a middle ground between that and going to the White House and saying, and it is such an honor to be looking across from you, and I love your steak, well done, and can I cut your food for you? Like, that's another level.

Tim Miller (27:00)

Alanya, your manicure is so perfect.

Stephanie Rule (27:02)

And it's just crazy unclear to me why you'd have to get to that level. And I would. I would end with this question, though, to you. What has happened in America? Do you remember in the first Trump administration, if a CEO of almost any company even went to the White House for a manufacturing council or this council and didn't even say a word, just went there? They would have boycotts from their employees. Right? They would have movie stars who were in their commercials or endorse their products speaking out against them. I'm asking you, what do you think?

Tim Miller (27:39)

People have been beaten down. People have been beaten down by it. People don't think it worked, right? I don't know. Like, on my. On my Gen Z pon. I do with Kam Kaski, who started March For Our Lives. I asked him this a lot, and he's just like, I don't. What do you want from us? Like, we protested gun. You know, the shootings in schools, more shootings in schools. Didn't get much results. We protested Trump the first time. Trump's back. Like, what? But I think that people are beaten down by it as the answer, I guess, but still.

Stephanie Rule (28:05)

But isn't that amazing?

Tim Miller (28:07)

Leaders have a responsibility to do things. I have more contempt for the actual billionaires than I do for their employees, but I hear you.

Stephanie Rule (28:14)

But isn't that amazing that, like, it's sad for sure. When Charlottesville happened, all those CEOs were like, we have to get off the manufacturing council.

Tim Miller (28:22)

Yeah, Right.

Stephanie Rule (28:23)

And you now have ICE raids happening. Right, Right. The court's saying we're down with racial profiling on the streets of LA. And no companies are saying to their CEOs, you can't do business. You know, like, we have to stop this. Like, I'm. I'm more of questions than answers about that.

Tim Miller (28:40)

Yeah. And maybe you can give me a more satisfying answer than James Bennett did yesterday on this question. Because here's the other thing. Like, there's this asymmetry also that the Democrats don't benefit from this. And I. This is not one of those. I'm asking a question I really know the answer to. I genuinely don't understand it. Like, Elon wasn't at that dinner. I don't know what happened behind the scenes, but, like, the origin story everybody tells me about Elon hating Biden is that he didn't get invited to a dinner.

Stephanie Rule (29:03)

I think Biden was to not invite Elon Musk.

Tim Miller (29:06)

Yeah, sure. I do too. But I'm just saying Elon was there yesterday. Nobody's saying that he's going to go socialist now.

Stephanie Rule (29:10)

No, I mean. But hold on. The night Elon Musk didn't go to the dinner was the night Tesla's board was. Was communicating that Elon Musk would like a trillion dollar pay package for over the next eight years. So he was busy working on other stuff.

Tim Miller (29:30)

Okay, got it. Okay, well, let me do this. This is the counterfactual. I'll give Bennett if Zoran right now did this. He said, I'm about to be mayor of New York. I'm gonna have a dinner. All the finance guys, all your old friends, all the CEOs of the banks gotta come to this dinner. And you gotta talk about how handsome I am and how great my wife is and how you're interested in halal food now and how much you agree with my vision. And if you don't do that, then I'm gonna do a wealth tax of XXX percent and I'm gonna use all the power I have as the New York mayor's office to punish you. Everybody would freak out. Every businessman in America would freak out. And I don't understand why this is different. I genuinely don't. Like, why are they doing. Why aren't they freaking out?

Stephanie Rule (30:17)

Okay, that's an amazing question. I don't have an answer. And I'm gonna give it back to you in a different way.

Tim Miller (30:25)

All right?

Stephanie Rule (30:25)

The exact people that you're talking about, who are Freaking out here in New York about Mamdani. Freaking out. These are the people that are saying if we have five government run grocery stores with reduced prices, we are gonna turn into Soviet Russia. There's gonna be breadlines. Like they're losing their mind over Mamdani. This is what I don't understand. Mamdani is not going to get any of his extreme agenda items done. Or let's say 90% of it he's not getting done. The governor, Kathy Hochul, is going to stand in the way, the city council is going to stand in the way. Yet these people here are just panic stricken over it. Yet none of them are saying boo about an actual president who is blowing through the rule of law, who is taking control of every single element of government that he can and commingling and.

Tim Miller (31:16)

Co mingling, bullying their companies.

Stephanie Rule (31:18)

There's something important that I want people to remember that, you know, when you see the president get involved or when the government suddenly takes a stake in Intel. And we heard from Hegseth and we heard from Lutnick that maybe we're now gonna take a stake in defense companies. It's not just the companies that our government now invests in. It's every other company in the industry. As soon as you have government insert itself, distort the markets, it distorts everything. Why aren't we seeing those same people freaking out about what they think Donald Trump is doing versus Mamdani? And my gut is they think they know how to work Trump. They think at the end of the day, Trump's their boy. Like Trump can do mean things, but they're like, we can get him to do mean things to other people. Invite him to play golf, you know, line his pocket, tell him I think he's cool. Tell him I think the office is beautiful. And they fear Mamdani because they're like, mamdani actually hates us. Mamdani actually wants to stop us.

Tim Miller (32:17)

Yeah. And I don't know how to deal with a Muslim 33 year old socialist who I like his.

Stephanie Rule (32:21)

But that's not defending him. I'm not defending his policies. Like I'm not even getting into that. You said the right thing. They don't know what to do with Mamdani. Right. They look at Mamdani and they're like, hold on. Were those like the Occupy Wall street kids with the banjos outside our office 10 years ago that we stepped over, that we thought went away? If those are now the mayor, we don't know what to do with that.

Tim Miller (32:45)

That's A good point. Okay, we got around to a semi satisfying answer. If you are a rich person listening to this podcast and have a better answer, please let me know. Final topic, I want to talk about the Blue Anon. The what element? A little bit Blue Anon. This is the. These are kind of some of the resistance crowd who we love and appreciate, who listen to our various shows sometimes and who, you know, I don't know, think that Kamala really won. In some cases she did not win. Just really quick on this. Now that I didn't mean to bring this up, but I should mention this. Kamala did better in the states where the campaign mattered than in the other states. So if there was anyway. It just doesn't work. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense.

Stephanie Rule (33:27)

Are you talking about like dyed in the wool Democratic super fans who can only hear one narrative no matter what?

Tim Miller (33:35)

Yes. Yes. Don't wanna hear any bad infra. They don't hear any information about Trump succeeding or any information about the Democrats doing bad. That was one example. You had another example this week and you tweeted about how you were at the US Open and it wasn't. Trump didn't get booed as much as everybody says. And everybody's gotta calm down. It was kind of a mixed bag. We have the Kamala book out today. I just wanna mention one of the things, I'm gonna get into this more on the next level, but she, in this book, in this one excerpt lists all the things that I complained about about Joe Biden last year that people got mad at how he let his ego get in the way, about how he's reckless, about how the White House didn't defend her, how she was self conscious, about how she had to like all this stuff that some of us were saying that Biden was doing that was wrong that people got mad about. And I just, I connect all those things because it's like you can't figure out how to do things better if you don't accept in any information that you don't like. Right. And if you hear from somebody that Donald Trump wasn't really resoundly booed at the US Open and you get mad at them. You're not really, you're living in a fantasy world and you can't win something. You can't be successful if you aren't living in reality, I guess would be my point.

Stephanie Rule (34:42)

Shame on me for trying to express an experience, but shame on all of us that now that we live in a social media universe the trolls want to kill you no matter what. They need you to perform a role that they think you serve. They have put you in a category and they want you to do X. And if you're not doing X, you're. They're done with you. But it's absurd because if you don't tell the truth or if you don't just express reality, you're gonna lose anyway, right? So it was incredible. I went to the US Open on Sunday, right? Yeah, I went to the US Open and I, I'm leaving and I see all these articles like, he was resoundingly booed, Nobody wanted him there. Like, you know, and I was just like, that wasn't my experience. I'm like, there was a delay. Don't get me wrong. I was just trying to make the point. Donald Trump was a non event at the US Open, right? Many people didn't want him to go. Like we never want presidents to go. Like most presidents don't go to major events cuz it causes huge delays and expense. Like, it's annoying, it's problematic. But what Sunday was, was crazy, amazing tennis, okay? You had the number one and number two best tennis players in the world. We're all, you know, clinging to our seats. It's so unbelievable. And Trump did get dissed in the fact that when the two players spoke after the match, nobody acknowledged that he was there. When Alcaraz runs up in the crowd to get to his family, he doesn't even acknowledge that the President's there. However, I'm like, he wasn't in. Maybe they were showing more on tv. I was there and it was a really polite day of tennis. People I didn't see aggressively booing him. I didn't see people in crowds, in MAGA hats. Some people booed, some people cheered. It wasn't that big of a deal. What ended up being a big deal to me is people like Stephanie Rule is calling this news outlet a liar. I'm like, boys and girls, two things can be true. Donald Trump can be doing terrible, horrible things. And he also went to the US Open and it wasn't the end of the world. It was kind of a whatever.

Tim Miller (36:48)

And that's kind of important to accept actually, by the way, because if you're living in a world where actually everyone really hates Donald Trump and really, he didn't even really win and the end is near for him and he might be dying. Have you seen the cankles? If you live in that world, that's a fine place to live. I would like to live in that world, it would be nice. But you're not addressing any of the root causes of how we got here. Right. And we have to understand what is really happening in the world in order to fix it.

Stephanie Rule (37:13)

I think you just said the most important thing when they go, everybody hates Donald Trump. If that's what you believe, you're also wrong, because everyone doesn't hate Donald Trump. I just had a roundtable on my show the other night, and every person at the table, people in their immediate family, voted for him twice and would vote for him again. And I'm not saying that's great. I'm not saying, but. But this idea that the whole world hates him, the whole world doesn't hate him, and people still would vote for him that aren't hardcore magas. I'm not defending that they would vote for him, but I'm acknowledging that they would vote for him. It's sort of like if you remember back in sort of like Hillary Clinton days, or sometimes when people talk about Elizabeth Warren when she was running, and you'd say things like, I don't know if she could win people over. People don't like her style. They don't like the sound of her voice. You'd be like, that's sexist. That's this. It may be all those things, but if people aren't going to vote for that person, it's still okay to say it out loud. Just like you wanting to talk about flaws in Kamala Harris or Joe Biden. Those are realities, and you can talk about them or not talk about them. And when you don't talk about them and when you pretend they're not realities, then you're suddenly surprised and you lose credibility.

Tim Miller (38:28)

Amen. All right, how hot did Carlos look in person? How does Carlitos look?

Stephanie Rule (38:32)

Ay, dios mio. Caliente. My goodness.

Tim Miller (38:36)

Oh, man, what a man. What a lucky. What a lucky lady that British tennis gal is. All right, Co, I appreciate you very much. It was so hard to get you on. It was so hard to get you on. And thank you. I know your schedule is full, extremely full, and you have a lot of really, potentially.

Stephanie Rule (38:53)

I'll be available to you next March. We'll see.

Tim Miller (38:56)

All right, thank you, girl. We'll talk to you soon. Up next, Tom Saenza. Hey, everybody. We are going on the road this fall and I want to see you. Sadly, our Toronto tickets have already sold out, so I'm plotting a return to Canada. You guys just wait on that. But there's still tickets left for our events in Washington, D.C. and New York City in October. Come join me, Sarah jvl, for two nights of camaraderie and joy and resistance and podcasting and maybe some special guests at the D.C. event. We might give a big middle finger to the masked agents of Donald Trump that are roaming the city's free streets. And we'll be back in New York a couple times later. First time we've been in New York in ages. The last time we had a live New York event, it was, I can remember because it was during the Nuggets title run. And me and a handful of the folks who came out went and watched Jamal Murray, like put up 40, I think, on the Lakers after the podcast. It was quite enjoyable. Maybe we'll have a similar night. We'll see. And if you really want more time with us and you don't want to just place a bet that you'll end up at the same bar with me after, because you never know. You could pay for VIP tickets. They're included in the sale. It'll give you earlier entry into the show and you can hang with us for an intimate Q and A. You can check out all the details and get tickets@thebullwork.com events. For more, that's thebullwork.com events. See you all on the East Coast. All right, we are back. He is the president and general counsel at the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, maldef. It's Tom Saenz. Welcome to the Borg Podcast, Tom. How you doing?

Tom Saenz (40:44)

Thank you.

Tim Miller (40:45)

Been wanting to leverage your expertise on this. We have a bunch of stuff happening, including just this crazy case with one of your clients I want to get to. But first, on Monday, in an emergency decision, the Supreme Court lifted a Los Angeles District Court judge's order barring racial profiling that's now going to allow ICE to stop and detain anyone they suspect is in the US Illegally based on little more than whether they're working at a car wash or Home Depot or speaking Spanish. What did you make of that ruling and the implications?

Tom Saenz (41:18)

Well, first, it was a very surprising ruling from this court which, as you know, just two years ago decided that consideration of race, even though allowed for 45 years under Supreme Court precedent, consideration of race in a very narrowly tailored manner for university admissions was off limits. So they change precedent to say that you cannot consider race as even a narrow factor in making those decisions. But in this case, the majority of the justices concluded based on long standing Supreme Court precedent, that they're not revisiting that race can be a relevant consideration in deciding if there's reasonable suspicion to question someone about their immigration status. So the inconsistency on this very court, this set of justices, between what they did to change longstanding law in one area with respect to race and then doing nothing, indeed, taking the extraordinary action of lifting an injunction put in place by federal judges in the 9th Circuit and in the district court is really extraordinarily inconsistent and something that I think this court needs to explain.

Tim Miller (42:29)

Yeah, we can use race for detaining you. You can use your race to detain you, but not to give your leg up and get into college.

Tom Saenz (42:36)

Punitive, okay. But ameliorative, not okay. Gotta explain that to us.

Tim Miller (42:41)

The Kavanaugh ruling was particularly just jarring the language and what he wrote. He does this caveat where he writes, if the officers learn that the individual they stopped as a US Citizen or otherwise lawfully in the United States, they could promptly let the individual go. Like, it's almost as if he is not existing in the real world or he is just trolling us. I mean, like, what did you make of that statement and the rest of the Kavanaugh verdict?

Tom Saenz (43:10)

It is very much ivory tower reasoning. He has no understanding of how this actually goes down. And he could have gained such an understanding if, like Justice Sotomayor indicated in her dissent, he actually looked at the evidence and looked at what was going on in the city of Los Angeles, he would understand that. That not that it's some polite encounter that ends once I say I'm a US Citizen is ludicrous. That's not what happens. This is violent assaults on individuals based largely on race language and the fact that they may be dressed like they're about to engage in construction or day labor or landscaping. And that by itself should never trigger the kinds of assaults, often by massed unidentified individuals, that we saw widespread in Los Angeles. So his reasoning is not as supported by the evidence, and it's very unworldly. It's ivory tower reasoning.

Tim Miller (44:06)

I don't think that he would be feeling the same way if people could get detained just because they were in Lacoste shirts and doing keg stands carrying lacrosse equipment. Yeah, carrying lacrosse. Right. Well, that has happened. I mean, again, that was unfair when they were wrongly targeted, the lacrosse. That same logic does not apply to day laborers at Home Depot. I want to get into the specifics of what we saw in Los Angeles and your client, but just a little bit more on the legal side of this. It's hard for me not to be cynical about the Supreme Court. And at times, they have rebuked Trump. They've rebuked Trump quite a lot, to be honest. But in key moments, they have upheld allowing Trump to do what he wants to do, maybe out of fear that he would rebuff them if they didn't, and creating a constitutional crisis, maybe out of ideology, maybe out of. I don't. I can't get into their brains. But it all seems very strategic and cynical. In this case, you had in 1975, a unanimous ruling from Nixon appointee Powell saying that Border Patrol agents violated the Constitution when they stopped a car because the occupants appeared to be of Mexican ancestry. The justices all agreed that the Fourth Amendment protects against unreasonable searches like a motorist's Mexican appearance. And this is exactly that, right? Like, this is the same thing as that. And so what possible rationale would they have for overturning that precedent besides cynical political considerations?

Tom Saenz (45:36)

Well, first of all, I think that they should understand that the legitimacy of the Court doesn't just depend on whether the President defies them. Yes, that would be a constitutional crisis. But they are also undermining the legitimacy of the Court by engaging in this kind of decision making that, as you've indicated, you can't understand as a real person on the street. It makes no sense. And why the inconsistency between this decision and the decision two years ago in sffa, none of it makes sense. And that kind of misunderstanding of what the Court is doing also undermines respect and potentially creates a crisis in the legitimacy of the Supreme Court. The specific issue, of course, Kavanaugh would say he's only saying that race is one consideration. But again, in sffa, they said race can't be consideration, even though it's a minor and narrowly tailored consideration at all. But in this case, you can consider it as one factor of many. The problem is, as your question implies, a lot of these things really are race in a different guard. I mean, if you say, oh, I went to a particular place because a lot of Latinos are there, and therefore a lot of them are going to be undocumented immigrants, that's the same as race. So if you go to Walmart, right, because lots of Latinos shop there, that's just using race multiple times in race itself in language. And then because you pick the place based on the race of the people who are there, that's really just race all at once. And in one fell swoop, it's not race as one consideration of many, which is what he's saying. Precedent allows. So it'll be interesting to see how you comply with when in fact, what they're doing is taking race and using different iterations of it and nothing besides that to decide who they're going to go target and question and really detain an assault.

Tim Miller (47:31)

Well, what is the rationale? What is your understanding for why doing this on emergency? I mean, it doesn't seem like it was urgent or an emergency in any way. They could have done this in a normal, you know, Supreme Court session, had a full, you know, review and made a decision like, what do you make of that?

Tom Saenz (47:48)

The misuse of the shadow docket, as they call it, is very troubling because it means that this was not argued before the justices. They didn't have the opportunity to throw questions at the parties and have those questions answered. If they had done that, they might have a better and more realistic sense of what's going on on the streets of Los Angeles and elsewhere. But they didn't do that. So they only had limited briefing and they issued an emergency stay of an injunction. It's extraordinary and should be extraordinary, meaning unusual. But it's not under this court, particularly when it's something asked for by the Trump administration. Of course, you know, Kavanaugh talks about how the balance of the equities weighs heavily in favor of the government. That was in some ways the most bizarre part of his concurrence, suggesting that somehow if we stop for a day or a week or three months, this kind of activity, somehow our federal government and the people's interests will be unduly impaired in comparison to the rights of US Citizens who happen to fit the profile. Lawful permanent residents who fit the profile, and folks with other status who fit the profile, who are going to be assaulted, are going to be detained, are going to be harassed. So his balancing of the equities is perhaps the most bizarre and inexplicable element of his concurrence.

Tim Miller (49:13)

Speaking of examples of what's happening on the streets, I want to talk about one of your clients here, Hob Garcia. He was held for more than 24 hours after a violent arrest at the Hollywood Home depot. He's a U.S. citizen. He was picking up an order at the store and he's taking a video of an ICE encounter at the store for the folks in YouTube. I want to put this video in right now. That is insane. What he was, what he caught there, just the behavior of those ICE agents, masked, breaking the window of the other Hispanic looking person in the truck. And then I guess he ends up Getting detained. Talk about what happened there.

Tom Saenz (49:49)

He's videotaping that to document what they're doing to the man who is in the truck. And because he's doing it, he gets targeted, violently taken down and arrested, even though he's a US Citizen. As you know, this is not unusual. Unfortunately, what we are seeing too many places across the country is that if US Citizens, particularly Latino US Citizens, have the temerity to take out their phones and videotape the misconduct of the officers, they will be taken down, violently arrested and detained. And that's what's happening to too many folks across the country. It's an indicator of the power that these officers believe they have, despite Justice Kavanaugh's assurance to all of us that they're well trained and making decisions based on a totality of the circumstances. That's certainly not what we see in any videotape. These are folks who are acting like thugs. Whether they are or they're not. They're acting like thugs. They're wearing masks. They're not in uniform. They don't have badges. They don't identify themselves. And they take folks down for things that are clearly protected by the First Amendment, like videotaping what they're doing, like advising through shouting advice to individuals who are confronting the immigration enforcement folks. Those things are all protected. I think it's very telling that when this case first came forward, and we've now filed a claim against the federal government and the Federal Tort Claims act, but when it first came forward, the spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security said that what it was engaged in included verbal harassment. And that's obstruction. Well, no, it's not. Because the First Amendment says that verbal. Verbal speaking is protected by the Constitution. And verbally harassing cops or any other enforcement authorities is not obstruction. It is protected by the First Amendment. But that gives you an indication of what's going on, which is violations of people's rights, thinking that they will be undertaken with complete impunity in part because of decisions by the Supreme Court like the one issued yesterday.

Tim Miller (52:03)

Like, what was the rationale for detaining him for so long?

Tom Saenz (52:06)

They have not. I mean, they were supposedly considering prosecuting him for obstruction. Obviously, they had no evidence to support that and ultimately had to let him go. So your case is extended. Yeah, it's just a extended harassment. Basically, we're going to punish you because you took out your phone and were videotaping what they were doing, and we're advising the guy who they were confronting in the truck.

Tim Miller (52:33)

And also the Treatment of the guy in the truck is preposterous. Not knowing the whole details, you know, I don't know, maybe he had a weapon on him or something. But like there's no reason to be, you know, shattering the glass of a truck, pulling somebody out, being masked, manhandling them. Right? Like, what is the rationale for this type of treatment?

Tom Saenz (52:53)

There isn't. That's clearly excessive force. You're supposed to use the force reasonably necessary under the circumstances. That's way beyond, as you can see in the videotape, which is why Kavanaugh's reassurance that excessive force would be be controlled, would be deterred through civil lawsuits is ludicrous. And he asserts that recognizing in response to the dissent by Justice Sotomayor that there is potential for excessive force, he assures us all that the civil court system will work to prevent that from occurring. Well, the videotape, as you noted, pretty much demonstrates that's false. What we have is excessive force by people who are basically enforcing civil violations, not criminal violations, civil violations by undocumented.

Tim Miller (53:45)

Since you're, you know, kind of obviously seeing other examples of this out there and like hearing from other potential clients, et cetera. I mean, there's the example one that's gotten a lot of attention. There's also those in, at the cannabis farm in Camarillo. Out there was George Reddis. He's a 25 year old year old US citizen and army veteran. He was detained by ICE for three days and three nights as part of their raid of that cannabis farm. Totally falsely. Again, this is important in the context of the racial profiling. Right? This is the person that was a US Citizen gets detained as part of an immigration raid, is Hispanic, appears Hispanic. How extensive is that type of behavior? What are you seeing out there there?

Tom Saenz (54:27)

It's widespread, there's no question. What we have are a bunch of folks who have been inadequately trained are sent out without being told they must identify themselves on their uniforms without being told, you should not be wearing a mask. And they're acting like abductors of folks. They're not acting like law enforcement at all. This is widespread harassment. That then is backed up by long term. I think three days is long term detention of folks they have no reason to hold. So this is not unusual. This is what's going on. It should make us all question, what is the purpose of this activity? It is, in my view, inexplicable that the administration has undertaken this activity only in blue states and in blue cities. Because if it's so wonderful, so positive, so productive for us to engage in this kind of behavior. You would think he would deliver that benefit, that boom to the folks who have supported him first. And so he should be doing this in red states and doing it in red cities to the extent there are in. But the truth is he's using this as political retribution for communities that did not support his candidacy anytime he's been on the ballot. And it is designed to intimidate. It's designed to inspire fear. It's designed to catalyze people leaving, leaving the country. And that's not just undocumented immigrants. It is designed to catalyze people leaving who do not support his agenda.

Tim Miller (55:55)

All right, Tom Zients, thank you for the update on all this. Appreciate the work that you're doing very much. Once again, it's the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund. If folks want to support it and hope to be talking, well, I hope I wouldn't have to be talking to you again soon, but I expect that we will have to be talking again soon. Thanks again, man.

Tom Saenz (56:11)

Thanks. Thank you.

Tim Miller (56:12)

All right, thanks so much to Stephanie Rule, very challenging person to book, very important booking. And I appreciate that she came on the pod today. Also to Tom Science for all the work that he's doing at MALDEF and all the other folks out there fighting for immigrant rights. It's just such an important cause right now. Appreciate both of them. Appreciate you all for listening, being here every day. We'll be back tomorrow for another edition of the podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace.

Musical Guest (56:34)

You used to get it in your fishnets now you want to get get it in your night dress Discarded all the naughty nights for niceness Landed in a very common crisis Everything's in order in a black hole Nothing seems to pretty is the past Though every Tabasco Remember when you used to be a rascal oh, the boys are slag the best you ever had the best you ever had is just a memory and those dreams when I stack as daft as they seem my love when you dream them all Flicking through a little book of sexy tips Remember when the bars were all electric now when she told she's gonna get it I'm guessing that she'd rather just forget it Clinging to not getting sentimental said she wasn't going but she went still likes and gentlemen not to be gentle with a mecha double or a bet in pencil oh no the boys are slag the best you ever had the best you ever had is just a memory and those dreams but as d as they seem As d as they seem, my love when you dream them over where did you go? Where did you did you go? Where did you go?

Tim Miller (58:07)

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.