The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Stephanie Ruhle and Tom Saenz: Why Aren't People Freaking Out?
Date: September 10, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Stephanie Ruhle (NBC/MSNBC), Tom Saenz (MALDEF)

Overview

This two-part Bulwark Podcast episode dives into two of the nation's most pressing and under-discussed topics:

1. America's elite and the troubling Epstein network, plus the political and economic climate under Trump, with Stephanie Ruhle.
2. The Supreme Court's emergency decision effectively legalizing racial profiling for immigration enforcement, with Tom Saenz.

Threading throughout is the episode's titular question: Why aren't people freaking out more about these seismic, norm-busting changes?

Segment 1 – Stephanie Ruhle on Epstein, the Elite, and Political Gaslighting

(00:12 – 38:56)

Epstein's "Birthday Book" and the Culture of Elite Perversion

• Tim Miller kicks off—with dark humor—by referring to the recently reported "birthday book" full of crude, sexually explicit jokes, marking an "escalation" from typical rich-guy bad behavior.
• Stephanie Ruhle contextualizes the one-of-a-kind depravity of the Epstein network:
  • "This is a different level. Like, there's pictures in there... real deep perv... And it's super gross because these are like giant men of substance." (01:00)
  • She speculates that Epstein's real appeal to these men was providing a "safe" environment for them to indulge in secret sexual escapades, not necessarily always illegal, but always "naughty" and shielded from reputational risk.
• Ruhle underscores the calculated secrecy:
  • “Jeffrey Epstein offered for all these business dudes... just a naughty euphoria for them to get their groove on. And it’s super gross.” (02:45)

Impunity and the Call for Transparency

• Tim Miller notes all the "jokes" in the book are about young women—no other interests are present.
  • "There’s no other interests in this book. Everything is about young women, but that's it.” (02:58)
• Ruhle highlights the normalcy of this abnormal behavior among the elite and the stunning PR indifference:
  • “Every person who participated in that birthday book has a PR department... And no one thought to say, dial it back on this. Which just makes me think they were so far off the rails." (03:26)
• There’s broad consensus: The truth needs to come out, and the appetite for releasing the Epstein files is huge.

Reactions to Trump's Alleged Involvement and Media Reluctance

• Tim expresses frustration at media outlets downplaying evidence of Trump’s wrongdoing, being so cautious as to sound absurd:
  • “There's like a decent amount of evidence of wrongdoing at this point... There has obviously been some type of wrongdoing. Right. Like, that's okay to say.” (05:53)
• Ruhle replies that media caution is rooted in legal fear under Trump, where organizations could be sued out of existence:
  • "We're now in such an oppressed situation where you have a president who's threatening to sue you... so if people are being extra, extra careful... so be it." (06:57)

Press Resistance and the Weaponization of ‘Hoax’

• Ruhle invokes Maggie Haberman's persistent questioning at a White House press briefing:
  • “...she's like, what is the hoax exactly? Is the signature the hoax? Is the friendship the hoax? And they just can’t answer it." (08:52)
  • Ruhle: “Good on Maggie Haberman to just say, I'm gonna press pause... Explain to me, what's the hoax?” (09:26)

Biden Economy, Trump’s Economic Narrative, and Market Reality

(After midroll ads, resumes ~12:00)

BLS Jobs Revision and Its Impact

• The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) revised its numbers: 911,000 fewer jobs added (March 2024–March 2025) than previously estimated.
  • Tim: “...the economy is worse than we thought. It seems like, number two, this adds to the Trump ability to just sort of eliminate the credibility of statistics coming from our government.” (11:50)
  • Ruhle: “Trump going after the BLS and the numbers is like slashing your neighbor's tires at midnight...and then waking up...and screaming...that their car is sitting in your front yard.” (12:20)

Why Market Stability ≠ Economic Health

• Stephanie draws a distinction: between how investors react (with agility) and how actual businesses must plan long-term.
  • “If you are a CEO...it takes you months and months and years to plan your business...So real businesses, where you have hiring, that's where you're seeing this huge disruption, these giant swings.” (13:42)
• Key stat: "The market and the economy are two different things. And getting these giant revisions is another sign that we are having huge disruptions..." (14:36)

Corporate Subservience to Trump: Tim Cook, Zuck, Tech, and Wall Street

(21:10–27:39)

Tech Leaders’ Obsequiousness

• Tim Miller plays the audio of Tim Cook lavishing praise on Trump at a recent White House dinner.
  • Cook: “Very very few people have been able to do what you've done. Congratulations... I want to thank you for including me this evening. ... It’s incredible to be among everyone here, particularly you...” (21:10)
  • Ruhle: “I want to thank you for learning that my last name is Cook and not Apple.” (22:04)
• Tech leaders act subservient, despite their immense wealth and "F-you money".
  • “They're just so cucked though. Isn't this the point of having... fuck you money?... What do they need from that? Tim Cook could just not go... couldn't you dial it back 80%?” (23:47, 24:38)

Market Power, Authoritarianism, and Lost Business Resistance

• Ruhle and Miller contrast:
  • Then: CEOs faced boycotts and pressure just for attending White House events during the first Trump term (Charlottesville).
  • Now: ICE raids, Supreme Court approving profiling, and barely a peep.
  • “You now have ICE raids happening...and no companies are saying to their CEOs, you can't do business... I'm more of questions than answers about that.” (28:23)

Why Aren't They Freaking Out?

• When comparing leftist politicians' threats (e.g., Mamdani in NYC) to Trump's real consolidation of power:

  • Stephanie: “...these people here are just panic stricken over it. Yet none of them are saying boo about an actual president who is blowing through the rule of law, who is taking control of every single element of government..." (30:25–31:18)

  • Tim's possible answer: “My gut is they think they know how to work Trump. ...they fear Mamdani because... he actually wants to stop us.” (31:16–32:17)

Resisting Blue Anon: Facing Hard Truths

(32:45–38:56)

Reality vs. Fantasy in Resistance Politics

• Discussion of the "Blue Anon" tendency to believe only comfortable narratives (Kamala, Trump’s popularity, US Open booing).
  • Tim: “You can't figure out how to do things better if you don't accept any information that you don't like.” (34:35)
• Ruhle recounts backlash for reporting Trump’s US Open appearance was “a non event”:
  • “Two things can be true. Donald Trump can be doing terrible, horrible things. And he also went to the US Open and it wasn't the end of the world. It was kind of a whatever.” (36:48)
• Both agree: Denying reality helps no one.
  • Ruhle: “Everyone doesn't hate Donald Trump... people still would vote for him that aren't hardcore magas. I'm not defending that, but I'm acknowledging that...” (37:13)

Segment 2 – Tom Saenz on Supreme Court Greenlighting Racial Profiling

(40:45 – 56:11)

Legalizing Racial Profiling: What Just Happened?

• Backstory: The Supreme Court, via emergency order, lifted an injunction against ICE racial profiling in LA, meaning ICE can now stop/detain people “on little more than” perceived Latino-ness, Spanish language, job type, etc.
• Saenz: “It was a very surprising ruling from this court...they change precedent to say that you cannot consider race...for university admissions...But in this case, the majority...concluded...that [for ICE] race can be a relevant consideration...” (41:18)
• Tim: Highlights the mind-boggling double standard: “We can use your race to detain you, but not to give you a leg up and get into college.” (42:29)
• Saenz: “Punitive, okay. But ameliorative, not okay. Gotta explain that to us.” (42:36)

Unworldly Justifications and Real-World Harm

• Kavanaugh's opinion: Suggested ICE can just “let go” citizens or legal residents quickly if stopped.
  • Saenz: “It is very much ivory tower reasoning...It’s not some polite encounter that ends once I say I’m a US citizen is ludicrous. That’s not what happens. This is violent assaults...” (43:10)
• Saenz emphasizes: The precedent (US v. Brignoni-Ponce, 1975) says race alone can’t justify stops; now that's effectively being ignored.

Misuse of the Shadow Docket

• Tim: Why was this done as an "emergency"—was there an urgent need?
  • Saenz: “The misuse of the shadow docket...is very troubling because it means that this was not argued before the justices...” (47:48)

Real Cases: Targets of Racial Profiling

• Case example: Hob Garcia, US citizen, videotaped ICE at a Home Depot; was tackled, arrested, and held 24+ hrs for “obstruction.”
  • “As you know, this is not unusual. What we’re seeing...if US citizens...have the temerity to take out their phones...they will be taken down, violently arrested and detained...That’s what’s happening in too many places across the country.” (49:49–51:00)
• Another example: George Reddis, US Army vet, detained for three days in a cannabis farm raid. Pattern: ICE targeting “Hispanic-appearing” individuals regardless of status.

Political Motivation

• Saenz argues: These tactics are deployed mainly in blue states/cities as political retribution.
  • “...it is designed to intimidate. It's designed to inspire fear. It's designed to catalyze people leaving, leaving the country. And that's not just undocumented immigrants...it is designed to catalyze people leaving who do not support his agenda.” (55:10)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Stephanie Ruhle (re: Epstein’s elite): “They actually don't have access...to find some hot young thing... Jeffrey Epstein's like, I have six different Shangri La palaces...” (01:10–01:40)
• Tim Miller: “There’s no other interests in this book. Everything is about young women, but that's it.” (02:58)
• Ruhle: “Trump going after the BLS and the numbers is like slashing your neighbor's tires... and...screaming... that their car is sitting in your front yard.” (12:20)
• Saenz: “It is very much ivory tower reasoning...This is violent assaults on individuals based largely on race, language, and the fact that they may be dressed like they're about to engage in construction or day labor or landscaping.” (43:10)
• Saenz (on policy’s real intent): “If it’s so...productive...you would think he would deliver that...to the folks who have supported him first...But the truth is he’s using this as political retribution...” (54:27–55:10)

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• 00:55 – Ruhle on Epstein’s “naughty euphoria” for the rich
• 04:13 – Tim on the damning list of Epstein guests
• 06:57 – Ruhle on media fear under Trump
• 09:26 – Discussion of “hoax” as right-wing codeword
• 12:20 – Ruhle’s “slashing tires” BLS metaphor
• 14:36 – Differentiating economy vs. stock market
• 21:10 – Tim Cook’s effusive praise for Trump clip
• 24:38 – Tim and Stephanie on cowardly CEOs
• 27:39 – Discussion: Absence of corporate pushback in Trump II
• 30:25–31:18 – Why elites freak out at the left and appease Trump
• 32:45 – Blue Anon/Resistance denialism
• 37:13 – Ruhle: “Everyone doesn’t hate Donald Trump”
• 41:18 – Saenz: SCOTUS greenlights racial profiling
• 43:10 – Kavanaugh’s "ivory tower"
• 49:49 – Real-world ICE violence and citizen arrests
• 55:10 – Saenz: “designed to intimidate” blue states
• 56:11 – Closing thoughts

Conclusion

The episode is a sweeping indictment of several interlocking crises: an elite culture above accountability; media forced into legal caution; economic disruption obfuscated by market euphoria; and courts greenlighting racial profiling, all under a retreating resistance by both elites and the public. Stephanie Ruhle and Tom Saenz do not mince words—offering both sharp critique and a call to face reality, not comforting illusions.

If you’re wondering “Why aren’t people freaking out?”—this episode offers a sobering, multi-faceted answer: exhaustion, cynicism, normalization of the abnormal, but above all, the mistaken belief that someone else will stand up.