The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: Stuart Stevens: Say They're Not Patriots
Date: September 2, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Stuart Stevens (Author, Lincoln Project Senior Advisor, former Republican consultant)
Brief Overview
On this episode, Tim Miller welcomes back Stuart Stevens to dissect the current state of American politics, the deterioration of the Republican Party, and the necessary assertiveness Democrats must summon to counteract Trumpism and MAGA extremism. With their signature blend of wit and realism, Tim and Stuart take on Republican complicity, the rise of authoritarianism, how Democrats should respond, class warfare, foreign policy betrayals, and even indulge in some college football banter at the end.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The State of American Democracy and the Republican Party
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Stuart’s Growing Alarm (04:00–05:30)
- Stevens reflects on the surreal state of the GOP, referencing the hypothetical of "masked men chasing gardeners in Brentwood with funding larger than the Marines."
- He underscores how figures like Pete Hegseth and Kristi Noem represent Trump’s intent to humiliate Republican senators, forcing compliance and demonstrating control.
- Quote:
"Trump does this...to humiliate the senators, to prove I can make you vote for a drunken weekend talk show host to run the largest military... It is like the way Saddam would make families sit and execute dissidents. See, I control you."
— Stuart Stevens, 04:32
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Patriotism and Republican Complicity (03:00–04:30)
- Stuart calls out the GOP's abandonment of patriotism, suggesting Democrats should reclaim that vocabulary.
- Quote:
"I don't think you can call yourself a patriot and vote for Pete Hegseth or Kristi Noem. And I think Democrats need to get about using that kind of language."
— Stuart Stevens, 03:35
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Republican Party & Russian Influence
- The suggestion is made that the Republican Party has become, functionally, “an element of the Russian Federation.”
- Quote:
"Republican party's become a functional element of the Russian Federation."
— Stuart Stevens, 05:30
Assessing the 2024 Election and the MAGA Coalition
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Rejection of Trumpism at the Ballot (05:58–09:12)
- Stevens argues that the 2024 election wasn’t an endorsement of Trumpism and that the MAGA coalition is unstable, akin to "a Faberge egg."
- He details demographic decline of the non-college-educated white electorate — from 60% when Bush ran in 2000 to 39% today.
- Highlights strategic efforts to make the electorate "whiter" and "less educated" as an intentional MAGA tactic.
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Voter Intimidation and Attacks on Higher Education (07:45–09:10)
- Trumpworld's focus on lowering education and intimidating voters is described as part of a deliberate strategy.
- Quote:
"If you know that your base is non college educated white voters... you try to make the electorate whiter, and less educated."
— Stuart Stevens, 07:49
On the Possibility of Irreparable Damage
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Michael Luttig’s Dire Outlook (10:12–11:12)
- Tim plays a sobering clip from Judge Michael Luttig, who claims, "It cannot be stopped," and that even if the House flips, "there’ll be nothing left."
- Tim and Stuart debate whether, even with future wins, the damage to American institutions could be permanent.
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Democrats Must Act Like Dissidents (12:26–13:54)
- Stevens calls on Democrats to abandon the posture of governance and instead act like a dissident movement, using every lever of power aggressively if/when they get it back.
- Quote:
"Democrats have to... act like a dissident movement... Given up on the idea that the Republican Party is a traditional party... What they need to do on the first day is cut off all funding for the executive branch... pass legislation to nationalize Starlink, nationalize SpaceX, defund ICE..."
— Stuart Stevens, 12:26
The Case for Relentless Confrontation
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Using Forceful Rhetoric and Actions (13:54–15:15)
- Democrats must label MAGA extremism as fundamentally unpatriotic and racist; stop trying to be “President for all Americans.”
- Quote:
"You have to not hesitate from saying, these are not good people."
— Stuart Stevens, 14:57
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Risks of Escalation and the Death Spiral (15:59–17:13)
- Tim expresses discomfort with a full scorched-earth approach, worrying about of a "death spiral."
- Stevens counters:
"I think we are in a death spiral... You don't get to pick the fight you're in. You have to fight the fight you are in. You have to adapt."
— Stuart Stevens, 15:59
Weakness, Compliance, and the Decline of the GOP
- How the Republican Party Got Compromised (18:17–20:15)
- GOP’s transformation into an organization rewarding compliance and "weakness," tracing it back to demographic changes and civil rights era politics.
- Quote:
"The Republican party is an extremist movement. You can't negotiate with them. The only thing they're going to respect is fear and force."
— Stuart Stevens, 19:31
Democratic Strategy and Messaging Tactics
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No One-Size-Fits-All Messaging (23:45–25:52)
- Both agree a diversity of strategies—populist, centrist, fighter, technocratic—should be deployed simultaneously.
- Quote:
"I think you could and should do all of those things because the people that are drawn to it are going to hear you. People who are shopping for that will hear it."
— Stuart Stevens, 24:08
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Class Warfare & Wealth Tax Advocacy (27:21–28:37)
- Stuart, former Romney advisor, advocates a hard class war: wealth taxes, highlighting GOP hypocrisy on Biden-era accomplishments.
The Zoran Debate—Is Democratic Socialism a Liability?
- Running at, Not from, ‘Socialist’ Critiques (31:18–33:40)
- Stuart dismisses the worry that Zoran (a left-leaning NYC mayor) is a gift to GOP ad-makers, arguing Dems shouldn't allow the GOP to define their story when the GOP is so radicalized.
- Quote:
"If you allow your party to be defined by a guy who's mayor of New York because he wants five grocery stores or something, the only honorable thing to do is... just kill yourself. Because if you allow that..."
— Stuart Stevens, 33:40
GOP Foreign Policy: Betrayal and Pro-Putin Shift
- On the Trumpist Embrace of Russia & Betrayal of Allies (37:12–39:13)
- Trump’s admiration for strongmen, embrace of Russia, and soft stance on China is seen as deeply troubling.
- Quote:
"One of the two major parties of the United States in America supporting a genocidal war of kidnapping and rape and torture... it is evil."
— Stuart Stevens, 39:09
Trump’s Corruption and Crypto Scandal
- Aggressive Accountability Needed (41:07–43:15)
- Tim and Stuart discuss the new Trump crypto scam and billions pocketed, with both agreeing Democrats must promise full investigations and criminal accountability.
- Quote:
"They need to go in and... open basically a 9/11 style commission into the crimes of Trump. And they need to start using it in that language."
— Stuart Stevens, 41:33
The Case for Relentless—and Even Fearsome—Tactics
- Instilling Fear as a Form of Deterrence (45:08–46:00)
- Tim plays a right-wing podcaster's paranoid monologue about government overreach; Stuart suggests Dems should exploit that fear and make clear they’ll use the GOP’s own authoritarian apparatus against them if given the chance.
- Quote:
"We now have this masked force... funded, larger than the Marines... we're going to use that. Understand that?"
— Stuart Stevens, 45:08
The RFK Jr. Phenomenon
- RFK Jr., Roid Rage, and Populist Venom (47:46–48:56)
- Stuart critiques RFK Jr.’s history of addiction, steroid use, and anti-vaccine stance, labeling him "a tragic figure... deeply off."
Closing: College Football
- Football as an Emotional Touchstone (48:56–50:55)
- Stuart and Tim end on college football, discussing the decline of Alabama, the fortunes of LSU and Ole Miss, and the bittersweet joy of sports.
- Quote:
"Sports... will always break your heart, but at least it reminds you you have one. I think there'll be one great moment and some disappointment."
— Stuart Stevens, 50:43
Notable Quotes (w/ Timestamps)
-
On GOP Compliance:
“You will degrade yourself to that degree. It is like the way Saddam would make families sitting executed dissident's face with a bullet. It’s just that little extra. See, see, I control you."
— Stuart Stevens, 04:32 -
On Dem Strategy:
“Democrats have to... act like a dissident movement... The only thing they're going to respect is fear and force.”
— Stuart Stevens, 13:54 & 19:31 -
On the Prospect of Irreparable Damage:
"The first thing I say is to my friends, there’ll be nothing left in a year and a half. But suppose it changes. So what? The damage has been done."
— Michael Luttig (clip), 11:08 -
On Class War:
"They also need to do very tough class warfare... They should put a thing out there that they want to have a 10% wealth tax on every person worth over... half a billion dollars."
— Stuart Stevens, 27:21 -
On Messaging:
"I think the illusionary search of a perfect message is always... a terrible, terrible trap to fall into."
— Stuart Stevens, 25:01 -
On Strategy for the Moment:
"You don't get to pick the fight that you're in. You have to fight the fight you are in."
— Stuart Stevens, 16:09
Essential Timestamps
- 00:41: Real start of episode (skip intro/ads)
- 03:00–05:30: State of GOP, humiliation as Trump’s tool
- 05:58–09:12: 2024 election analysis, demographic arguments
- 10:12–11:12: Michael Luttig “irreparable damage” clip
- 12:26–15:15: Democrats must act aggressively, “like dissidents”
- 15:59–17:13: Death spiral and escalation debate
- 18:17–20:15: Compliance culture in the Republican Party
- 23:45–25:52: Dem messaging—everyone do their own thing
- 27:21–28:37: Class war/wealth tax advocacy
- 31:18–33:40: Zoran and the fear of socialist smear ads
- 37:12–39:13: Trump's foreign policy, alliance betrayals, Russia
- 41:07–43:15: Trump's crypto scam and Democratic accountability
- 45:08–46:00: Using the tools of authoritarianism—instilling fear in the opposition
- 47:46–48:56: RFK Jr. and anti-vax populism
- 48:56–50:55: College football and life’s emotional realities
Tone & Personality
- Stuart Stevens: Darkly humorous, sardonic, direct, with ex-GOP insider gravity.
- Tim Miller: Energetic, probing, determinedly rational, keeps conversation on track but quick with asides and self-awareness.
For Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode
This episode is a blistering, unfiltered look at the current American political crisis, blending gallows humor with urgent strategizing. If you want a roadmap for how anti-Trump conservatives and Democrats view the stakes—and the only language they think the modern GOP will heed—this is essential listening. The recommendations? No more half-measures. Use every available tool, rhetorical or procedural, and fight like the system itself hangs in the balance—because, as Stevens and Miller compellingly argue, it does.