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- [00:01]
Susan Glasser
Hey, this is Sarah. Look, I'm standing out front of a.m. p.m. Right now and, well, you're sweet and all, but I found something more fulfilling, even kind of cheesy. But I like it. Sure, you met some of my dietary needs, but they've just got it all. So farewell, oatmeal. So long, you strange soggy.
- [00:19]
Tim Miller
Break up with bland breakfast and taste AM PM's bacon, egg and cheese biscuit made with ktree eggs, smoked bacon and melty cheese on a buttery biscuit. AM PM too much. Good stuff. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Glad to welcome back staff writer at the New Yorker, her most recent book, the Divider, co authored with her husband, Peter Baker. It's Susan Glasser, of course. Hey, Susan. How you doing?
- [00:54]
Susan Glasser
Hey, Tim. Great to be with you.
- [00:56]
Tim Miller
Good to be with you too. We've got so. I mean, there's just so much happening. One thing I have not covered this week because of the various scheduling demands is the secret deal or that is being drafted between Steve Wyckoff and his counterparties in Russia. This is an Axios story. The Trump administration has been secretly working in consultation with Russia to draft a new plane to end the war in Ukraine. A top Russian official told Axios he's optimistic about the plan. It's not clear how Ukraine and its European backers will feel about it. Wyckoff replied to that tweet publicly on his personal Twitter and said he must have got this from K. This, I assume, was meant to be a dm saying that this story came from Dmitriev, Kirill Dmitriev, the Russian envoy. Seems like a shit show, but I'm wondering what you make of it.
- [01:46]
Susan Glasser
Well, I think we can say we actually do know what Ukraine and Europe will think of it. And the answer is they don't think think much of it. It's not funny. In fact, Russia's attacks this week have been particularly pernicious, aimed at the civilian population, including in western Ukraine, civilians sleeping in their beds going about their business. This proposal seems to be not that dissimilar, literally from Russia's 2022, quote, unquote, peace proposal, which was essentially a series of unilateral demands. I mean, by itemizing the peace plan and making it 28 points, it doesn't make it any more viable peace plan. What it does appear is essentially that the United States, at least one faction of the United States government, Stephen Witkoff, is willing to act as an agent for conveying Russian demands and conditions for the end of the war to Ukraine. I don't see this right now as being a serious or viable proposal for Ukraine because any leader of Ukraine, including Volodymyr Zelensky, but, but any other elected leader of Ukraine would no longer be able to be the leader of Ukraine if they agreed to these conditions, which essentially would compromise the sovereignty and the future independence of the country.
- [03:03]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And among the things in the deal, cutting the Ukraine army in half, no foreign troops, ban on long range weapons, just making it an easy target for the future. It's interesting you mentioned that parallel to that 2022, quote, unquote deal, there were some members of kind of the MAGA foreign policy sphere that criticized Biden at the time for not at least agreeing to that deal or trying to negotiate based off of it. That was not the Rubio faction. Right. But the more isolationist faction. And so anyway, that's kind of interesting that the same framework comes back up and with maybe more interest from this president.
- [03:42]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, I mean, look, what's fascinating here also, Tim, is that Witkoff is essentially negotiating against Donald Trump's own previously stated positions. This wouldn't be the first time that's happening. But you mentioned that one of the conditions is no foreign forces on the ground in Ukraine. Well, what that really means is that it's saying no to the possibility of a European stabilization force, which is the thing that Trump indicated interest in earlier, so that American troops wouldn't be on the ground to secure the, the future peace. And it's just one of many examples. The other thing is it talks about a ceasefire. Whereas actually when Donald Trump had his summit meeting, quote, unquote, with Vladimir Putin, you recall him rolling out the literal red carpet for Putin on an American air base in Alaska in August, the major kind of pivot there was Trump going from demanding an immediate ceasefire to saying, no, no, we're just going to have a long term peace deal. So now we're back to maybe we're talking about a ceasefire. Again, it's all very confusing and murky and the smartest read on it I've seen is someone suggesting that this is essentially a play by the Russians putting it out there both to suggest, well, no, we are actually serious about negotiating with the United States in order to head off this sanctions bill that may or may not finally come to a vote in the US Congress. But also, it's just a way of embarrassing Trump, I have to say. Right. Not that he gets embarrassed, but showing that despite all of the public displays of frustration with Vladimir Putin, that Trump's personal envoy to the Russians continues to be played for a fool by the Russians and to be working on proposals that don't include the other parties to this war.
- [05:37]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I mean, just to reiterate, it seems pretty clearly that it was from the Russian side, given that the point person, like tweeted like what they thought was a DM to somebody suggesting that it must have come from the Russian side, which I think would, would indicate that he didn't know about it. Just, just briefly, because you mentioned at the top, but you know, there's been so much going on domestically, we haven't covered it for a little bit. The status on the ground has seemingly changed a little bit as, as far as, you know, Russia becoming more aggressive offensively than they had maybe the last time we checked in. Does that sound right to you?
- [06:10]
Susan Glasser
Well, I mean, Russia has had a deliberate strategy, by the way, in violation of all principles of the laws of international warfare, of targeting Ukraine's civilian population with long range missile and drone strikes, and in particular targeting Ukraine's civilian infrastructure. And that means heating and electricity. We're just headed into the winter. It's going to be a brutal and terrible winter on the ground in Ukraine. And, you know, one of Putin's strategies here is to maximally increase the suffering on the population of Ukraine in order to force things on his term in part, Tim, because actually the strategy of going on a fence in a more conventional way has not been very successful for Putin. It has come at enormous cost in manpower, in the strength of his military, which has been decimated on the ground in Ukraine. Basically they fought on the offensive all summer long to gain minimal, minimal territory. In fact, I was really struck by a statistic cited by the Times in its story today about this Witkoff Dmitriev peace proposal that suggested a Ukrainian think tank has come up with a number of four years, which is how long they say it would take for Russia to fight at the current rate and gain territory at the current rate to get just this additional portion of the Donbas that Steve Witkoff wants Ukraine to give away to Russia, even though Russia doesn't control it right now, four years, just to get a part of one region of Ukraine at the current pace. And so that, that tells you that actually both parties have failed on the offense in this war after the very beginning of it. We're in a sort of a kind of a stalemate, a war of attrition on the, on the front line, which is why the front line has actually become, you know, western Ukraine and civilian populations in the country. And also Ukraine itself has been striking increasingly at targets inside of Russia using its domestically manufactured drones and other long range weapons.
- [08:19]
Tim Miller
You mentioned the sanctions bill that's been percolating around Congress for a while now has been that they've had the votes, many Republican senators at least saying that they would be for a sanctions bill for Russia just hasn't been brought up. You know, John Thune presumably not wanting to get the ire of Donald Trump and Marco Rubio would be the only obvious reason why the sanction bill has not come up in the Senate. I'm interested to talk about that in the context of the other big news of this week, which was the Trump capitulation on Epstein. Right. For the first time, Trump was made to bow down by someone in his own party. In this case, it was Massie, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert. Truly. And you and I have. How many times have you. It's usually been you interviewing me or Sarah or somebody. In this case, it's like, when will the Republicans actually be able to stand up and fight to him? Many have tried. Tomorrow's guests tried. He's no longer in Congress anymore. Trump has always won any time he's been challenged inside the party and he's lost externally, but within the Republican Party, he's always won. This Epstein discharge petition is the first really major instance of someone challenging Trump going at them. He brought Lauren Bard into the Situation Room and having him be defeated. I do wonder if that makes some of. Now, I think that John Thune probably has less of a base of support than Marjorie Taylor Greene. So there are certainly some differences. But I do wonder if those cracks start to lead to other things such as this becoming maybe more possible. I don't know. What do you make of that?
- [09:48]
Susan Glasser
Was that the whiff of a little possibly irrational exuberance?
- [09:55]
Tim Miller
That was definitely irrational. I don't know if it was exuberant. It was a whiff of irrational hope.
- [10:01]
Susan Glasser
No, look, I actually did. I want to ask you because I feel like you're a keener observer of the sort of the former limbs still maybe echo for you.
- [10:14]
Tim Miller
Yeah, sure.
- [10:15]
Susan Glasser
My take is definitely it was a huge embarrassment for Trump. And if you can't get Lauren Boebert in the Situation Room to give you her vote when she owes her entire career to performative displays of support for you. Something, something is off. And capitulation is the right word. They went to extreme lengths. This is Trump. So it's like, you know, add some zeros to whatever you're doing here. They went to extreme lengths shutting down the US House of Representatives for two months from mid September to mid November in the effort to block a vote that you then failed to block. There's no script for this. This has not happened in any remotely analogous way. And so I don't want to understate that. It does seem to be quite specific to this particular MAGA base obsession with Epstein, with the files, with the idea that there's this conspiracy, that there's this cabal of deep state pedophiles that's being covered up. And so does it translate? We haven't seen that. I mean, I would like to point out that Donald Trump, in the same week that he capitulated here, has done a number of truly extraordinarily awful things, even by his own standards. And I haven't heard, I might have missed it, but I haven't heard not even the old bleats of concern from the caucuses of the concerned on Capitol Hill. And they don't even bother with that anymore. So I think they're very unlikely to break with Trump on a major foreign policy issue like the Russia sanctions. Even if they were to start ebbing away on other things, these people are going to start to get very scared for their political survival, the ones who are in frontline districts or in competitive Senate races in 2026. But they're going to care about things like the economy, which I could not believe. Donald Trump's numbers on the economy are truly mind blowingly bad right now, Tim. You know, for a guy who arguably that's what saved him from so many of the scandals and dysfunction and chaos of his first term was the per that he was good for the economy. Now he's more underwater on the economy in his polls than he is on his overall approval rating.
- [12:40]
Tim Miller
What if you could give a gift that brings your favorite holiday traditions and memories to life every day? With an aura frame you can. With an aura frame, you get unlimited free photos and video. You just download the Aura app, connect it to Wi Fi and then pop it right up there. You can preload the photos before it even ships so the recipient can have the gift of your smiling face or memories as soon as they open the box. You can share additional photos and videos effortlessly straight from your phone all year long. There's a little gift box included so, you know, shows you put in the effort. Or if you're like me and unable to wrap, that's a nice little bonus. I was in Sarah Longwell's office yesterday. See her Aura frame there and for her and she loves her family also and her children. There are pictures of everybody out there but it was an office gift. So it's a lot of pictures of all of us out there on the road at our events. All of you, the fans. That's cool. So if you have an office friend, that's a good gift or a friend friend. You know, I someone my friend was some old, old college pictures we haven't seen in a while. That's fun. So for a limited time only visit Oraframes.com and get 45 bucks off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code Bulwark at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code bulwark. Their exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year. So order now before it ends, support the show by mentioning us at ch. Terms and conditions apply. It's interesting, I want to come back to the Epstein thing, but just while we're on this point on the approval rating, because I was looking at this yesterday too. If you look at the various issues, really the only issues where people approve of him on now are the border and Israel, Palestine, Israel, Gaza, ceasefire. In some ways that's interesting because it's instructive on how Donald Trump has gotten out of focus on the things that could help his political standing because he is obsessed with that personally and he wanted the Peace Prize. And he also kind of fancies himself a deal maker and it is something he's getting positive feedback on. Right. And so I think that kind of does tie to the secret Russia negotiations and how he's focused on that. And it ties to having mbs, which I want to get to next at the White House. And it ties to what is the domestic priority right now, the escalation of ice, which we're going to get to. Right. So the things that he has good ratings on are the things that they're really doubling and tripling down on. The problem is if you're that far underwater in the economy and people are that unhappy about all this other stuff, at the end of the day, being above water on the Israel Gaza dispute is not a path to political power here. You know, might be for Bibi.
- [15:11]
Susan Glasser
You're absolutely right. People do not vote on foreign policy and ask any member of Congress whether they want 2026 to be a foreign policy election. And you know, you know the answer to that. A couple thoughts. First of all, it does underscore that Donald Trump is not on the ballot in 2026, and he tends not to care all that much about things that don't, you know, directly concern him. And he's perfectly happy to cut loose Republican members of Congress if it doesn't fit with what he wants to do at the moment. But it kind of underscores his impending lame duck status in that sense. And there's a reason that second term presidents like to focus on foreign policy. They like to focus on legacy building. Donald Trump, he's been out there musing about how he's not going to get into heaven and who can get me into the pearly gates, you know, so this is a guy, he's not raising the East Wing of the White House and building himself a grand white marble palace in the sky if he didn't have a focus right now on his legacy in all gold, capital letters. And so I think that's part of it that he wants to focus on. That foreign policy is also an area where our very unconstrained presidents really are unconstrained. And especially over the recent decades, you have seen Congress cede what role it did have largely in foreign policy to the executive branch. And so it's where you see the most undistilled kind of unconstrained power of a president, any president, and in particular, this president, he also relishes the statecraft of, you know, it's just, you know, the optics of it. It's just sort of me and some other great strongman making the world and shaping it according to the power of our will and our leadership. And so it very much plays his vision of what an American president should be and should do. Now on Israel and Gaza, wait until people find out that actually there is not long term peace in the Middle east because I hate to break it.
- [17:15]
Tim Miller
Are you sure?
- [17:16]
Susan Glasser
I don't want to be.
- [17:17]
Tim Miller
That's not what I heard.
- [17:18]
Susan Glasser
I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but actually, Donald Trump has not achieved long term peace in the Middle East.
- [17:26]
Tim Miller
Definitely feels like a tenuous place to stake your political status on maintaining a medium to long term, long term peace in the Middle East. I want to get to other news of the week stuff, but just really quick back on Epstein and because we don't want to gloss over too much Donald Trump having to bow down to Marjorie Taylor Greene. But I hear what you were saying about how Trump's defeat here has not yet spurred a wave of courage from other Republicans throughout the land. It is just meaningful in the sense that I was thinking about this as I was saying this. When was the last time he was rebuffed in such a way? And the John McCain thumbs down on Obamacare is the thing that comes to mind for the first term, but John McCain was vanquished after that. That was kind of like this last statement of resistance against Trump. The end of war that you've lost, basically. Right. It's like kind of a final charge to defend one's integrity. And obviously has used the policy which have had ramifications all the way up to this last shutdown. So in that sense, I do think this is different as far as the calculations of Republicans on the Hill, that at least now it opens things a crack. And the Epstein thing, I think is unique. As you say, Marjorie Taylor Greene's base of support is very different from all these Republicans. She has more credibility with the MAGA base than a lot of the other more establishment types do for a variety of reasons. And yet the fact that she would get him to fold, she's not really scared of a primary. She expanded it out. She attacked him not just on Epstein, but on not extending the Obamacare subsidies. And I think that issue is gonna have ramifications into. Into next year as people's premiums go up. It just gives the lame duck whiff is what it does. And, you know, it doesn't mean that it's over, that the walls have closed in on Trump, but it's meaningfully different, I do think, from what we've seen before in a way that just gives me a little bit of, I don't know, titillates me a little bit. Gives me a little bit of. A little bit of a twinkle in my eye.
- [19:24]
Susan Glasser
Hey, I'm all in favor of the Tim Miller Twinkle in the eye program. Okay? Let's just it at this. I would feel more confident in that theory of the case when, and I don't exclude that that will happen, the US Congress actually becomes a legislative separate branch of government again and, you know, stands up for itself. So, you know, totally fair telling. You know, the one act of defiance is to pass essentially a meaningless law that orders the Justice Department to release documents that they could have done so at any moment without this law, and then never seeing a word when the executive branch of the United States has usurped the most basic power that you have in the Constitution, which is, you know, the appropriation and spending of funds. Donald Trump has literally flouted the laws of the country, setting up large swaths of the executive branch. He's closed down departments without authorization from Congress to do so. He's refused to spend funds that Congress has appropriated for specific purposes when faced with this action. Congress has not even sued Trump has not acted in its own interest. So that's, that's all I'm saying.
- [20:38]
Tim Miller
Concur. Congress. Congress still. Still not exactly, you know, flexing its muscles. The aforementioned Trump atrocities of the week. The MBS visit. You posted this. You're thinking of all the heat that Biden took meeting with MBS in Saudi Arabia. And there was the fist bump, which I did. I was among the heat givers at the time. Only for Trump to lavish the, quote, fantastic prince with praise in the Oval Office and claim MBS told him that America was dead under Biden. Obviously then he lied about MBS's role in the heinous murder of Khashoggi. Things happen, Trump said. And then he goes on to have the state dinner with the masters of the universe all fetting this horrible dictator. What do you make of that?
- [21:26]
Susan Glasser
You pretty. You summed it up. I mean, you know, a lot of people didn't like this gentleman and the.
- [21:32]
Tim Miller
One other thing, gentlemen, Khashoggi was what he said. Yeah, defending Khashoggi, that's a gentleman I don't like.
- [21:36]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, exactly. And in fact defending MBS is his attack on Mary Bruce, the ABC News journalist who so calmly and professionally handled that awful situation. But I'm glad you actually brought up the dinner and the masters of the universe because I just been thinking like I know there have been a lot of call them iconic moments over the last nine months that really sort of distill this second term Trump. But for me, I think I am gonna remember the one, two punch of the lavishing. I mean, what other word is there for it than, I mean, practically just an on screen embrace of mba.
- [22:15]
Tim Miller
But you're going somewhere a little bit more prurient than embrace.
- [22:18]
Susan Glasser
I was, I was and I stopped myself. I used that line on my husband. I'm not gonna use it on your podcast.
- [22:24]
Tim Miller
On the Bulwark podcast. It's probably better received than home. We won't embarrass Theo.
- [22:32]
Susan Glasser
That would be terrible. You know, so this revolting scene of full on embrace of a murderous autocrat in service of what appears to be, you know, personal business interests as much as national interests in the Oval Office, attacking, you know, a journalist in the, in the most crude terms and threatening to withdraw ABC News's license. Again, saying this out loud in a way that would have been a scandal with any, any president of our lifetime, Democrat or Republican. And then following it up with this dinner at the White House, there's a photograph of the masters of the universe, as you put it, including Elon Musk and other tech tycoons in the White House for this state dinner. And is there any more kind of summing up of the grotesque, corrupted oligarchy in which we find ourselves then than this? I feel like it kind of sums it all up.
- [23:31]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I mean, I understand, I don't endorse, but understand there's certain members of that business class that was there because MBS is doing kind of massive data center deals for AI. And you kind of rationalize that we have to win the AI war. And so getting the financial resources of Saudi Arabia is important, though simultaneously, I think Saudi is trying to position themselves as the third most powerful country in the AI war. So I'm not, I'm not sure if that's that great. Just from a values perspective. I'm not, not sure we really, as a nationalist, from a national security matter, should be doing what we can to prop up their effort on that front. But anyway, so there's some of that, that's just direct old school geopolitical corruption and business dealings. Right? That is standard for politics. But then you had a lot of other folks that are there that's just like, is this necessary? Like, does Salesforce. Does Mark Benioff of Salesforce? Salesforce isn't in the AI chips game. You know, do you really need to go, do you need to go to this party that badly? Do you not get invited to other parties that you need to, like, put on a tuxedo and honor somebody that once again took a bone saw and be handed and chopped up a journalist just for the crime of speaking out against the regime and using their free speech rights? I thought many of these tech guys were free speech maximalists. And there they all were partying with this guy and Trump and doing selfies with Pam Bondi. It felt, well, I mean, it felt a little bit French Revolutionish, I guess I will say in some ways it was gross, but in other ways, I look at it and I think, man, he's giving a lot of material for someone from a populist left standpoint to come and use Trump's own populist kind of rhetoric against him.
- [25:30]
Susan Glasser
I think, well, I mean, grotesque is a word. I mean, what I'm struck by in the very, I think, calculated and largely opportunistic embrace by the tech tycoons of Donald Trump this year. And remember these Are the people who were given prime seats at the inauguration booting the political leadership of the country from the stage and relegating them to the cheap seats, so to speak. I take your point that geopolitics requires a certain amount of business engagement with unsavory parts of the world, but it doesn't require you embracing the Bonesaw murderer. We can stipulate to that. It doesn't require you embracing Donald Trump in such public ways. There are ways to keep integrity that do not involve this. And you know, when you see, I don't know the CEO of Apple whose products you use every day, you and I and all the people are funding this. Right. He doesn't have this power, this clout, this agency in the world that prizes high agency individuals like him, that's my son informs me, a Silicon Valley term. What are they doing? They're giving Donald Trump millions of dollars to knock down the east wing of the White House with no process, no sense of history and gildify his environment, the People's House. Knock down our history. You know, I'm not sure that business requires that. It seems to me that that's a form of rot and corruption that anyone can be against because it's, I just don't think it's, it's wrong to do the right thing. I think there are many people who have shown you can succeed in business, even in the Trump environment without engaging in these things.
- [27:21]
Tim Miller
And I mean Tim Apple has more money on his balance sheet at that company than any company in the history of the world. It's not as if like this is absolutely necessary to keep things afloat over there. So. No, I'm with you. Tim Cook is doing a sick.
- [27:36]
Susan Glasser
I think it means that these companies pay zero price for our entire kind of public space. Right. They think that the rest of us should fund the democracy part of the democracy and they should reap its benefits and be willing to do things that are antithetical to the, the public comments. Oh, sorry, that was just somebody honking.
- [28:02]
Tim Miller
That was a great point though. That was the honking. I think it was an unlike. Hell yeah. Susan Glasser, while we're on just anything, do you have anything on the F35 sales to Saudi? I haven't followed that that closely but.
- [28:16]
Susan Glasser
Well, I think the F35 sales and that greeting, I'm sure a lot of people saw Trump coming to the portico of the White House to greet MBS in a fanfare laden ceremony, not only rolling out the red carpet, according him the full honors essentially of A state visit. Even though he's not the head of state, his father, technically speaking, still is. And this flyover of the F35s, which the US government or which Trump has agreed to sell, that's something that previous administrations had, including Trump's own previous administration, had resisted. Saudi Arabia already has a military cooperation channel with China. And one of the concerns is, you know, possible proliferation of sensitive defense technology that the US Has. And, you know, this goes back to what we mentioned with Trump, Trump and Israel and Gaza, which is that Donald Trump wants to be seen as a deal maker, seen as a peacemaker, especially in the Middle east, but is often really not a very strong negotiator, not a strong dealmaker. So he appeared to give Saudi Arabia a lot of what it had wanted in terms of security promises from the United States and defense cooperation, without the part that the US had been demanding in exchange, which was, please join the Abraham Accords and normalize your relationship with Israel. And Donald Trump just threw that conditionality out the window, right, and sort of said, like, oh, well, we didn't get there on this one. So here, I'll just give you all this stuff anyways. And, you know, a tough negotiator wouldn't have done that. So it seems like Saudi Arabia came here and got a lot more of what it wanted. And it's not clear to me what the US Got out of this, aside from possibly more. More side business deals that would benefit Trump's family or the family of some of his cabinet members.
- [30:14]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Good investment for MBS into Jared Kushner. It turns out a lot of other people were counting Trump out. Mbs, I guess you don't have to hand it to MBS or anything, but it certainly has paid off. One of the other atrocities of Leak is this investigation of Jim Comey. This is another thing. I was just thinking of watching these tech guys do selfies with Pam Bondi. And just like Pam Bondi should be treated like a pariah, right now she's running a Department of justice that is totally out of step with the rule of law and the separation of powers and the traditions of the country, targeting political foes because her boss tells her to. And then they appoint this Lindsey Halligan, who has no idea what she's doing. And on the third day of her job, she is in front of the grand jury going after Jim Comey because the statute of limitation on this alleged crime is about to run out. And because Donald Trump and Pam Bondi. You want a scalp of a political foe, essentially the only reason she's doing this and she fucks it up. We'll have lawyers on the podcast next week to explain all the details of it. It's kind of boring. I was on with Nicole yesterday and I was listening to it and my mind was, I wasn't a lawyer for a reason. I'm a humble podcaster for a reason. But long story short, they screw up badly. And a federal judge castigated the Justice Department over possible misconduct, said it could have tainted the proceedings. It is simultaneously just an utter clown show and quite pernicious what the Justice Department is doing with Comey.
- [31:41]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, I think you're right to make sure that we talk about it because this is a signature moment in Donald Trump's campaign of revenge and retribution. And that I think is a huge part of what he wants to do with the White House in his second term. And the fact that he's got himself an FBI and a Justice Department that he's reshaped in the mode of personal loyalty shock troops. This case is going to be kind of one of the signature examples of that. I was reading some of the filings in this case and it really, it is remarkable because the allegation, as I understand it in total laypersons terms here, is that they had two different versions of the indictment of Comey and that it's possible that the magistrate judge misinterpreted when Lindsey Halligan brought us the second version of the indictment and it was presented by the grand jury foreperson that it's possible the grand jury actually never saw the second indictment of Comey, which was entered under their name. And that would be truly a remarkable thing if that is what happened. So that, that's my understanding when what's going on here, and it does bespeak to the possibility of an enormous screw up by an inexperienced person who never would have passed muster for this job under any president, Democrat or Republican. And that is a through line here. Look, abusive power is the kind of thing that should rattle people. It has nothing to do with ideology. This kind of power being wielded by an unchecked executive is literally like the nightmare that the founding fathers envisioned from the very beginning for a reason. It's completely devoid of ideology. And what it speaks to is something that, you know, anybody can be targeted.
- [33:36]
Tim Miller
Yeah. On the one hand, good for Jim Comey because things seem to be going well for him in this meritless case. I think it feels less scary to people the abuse of power if they don't feel like they're Threatened. Right. And I think that with Trump right now, immigrants, migrants feel like they're threatened. I think Spanish speaking citizens feel like they're threatened because they're going to be targeted. I don't think that the powerful feel threatened right now because I think they look at this and like, these guys are, come on, these guys are clowns. And I'm going to get what I can in the meantime. And that's the wrong way to look at it. Right? Like, just because it's a clownish abuse of power does not mean that it is not putting us on a very scary trajectory if it was allowed to continue. So they do want to talk about the ICE expansion that we've seen in Charlotte and in my hometown of New Orleans. They've reported that Bevino, the little, little Nazi guy, the 5 foot 4 guy, was supposed to be coming to New Orleans December 1st. But there's already some local reports of ramping up of CBP and ICE activities at construction sites. And we've been hearing from general contractors and such about people not showing up out of fear and people being grabbed. In Charlotte, there were 21,000 kids that missed school earlier this week because they were scared. I've heard from a friend who has everyone's legal in the family but has mixed immigrant family about fear and their children because of what they're hearing at school and on the news. And it's pretty frightening. And I do think, kind of going back to that original point, if Trump feels like this is the area where he still has control over things and they now have added budget to this, this is where things really ramp up through the winter. I don't know what you make of all that.
- [35:20]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, I mean, I think that is really important through line, actually, from we were talking about Comey and the abuse of power. When you get to this question of immigrants and who's afraid in this society right now, who's being targeted most explicitly in the society? You know, it's the spreading of fear on some level that is the most kind of strikingly at odds with the US Right? Seen as a safe haven, seen as the safe place in the world for generations of people. I'm, you know, certainly all of my family, I'm guessing, you know, most of your family, you know, they're all immigrants at some point. And they came here in part because they thought it was safe. Right. It was a place to get away from, you know, the horrors of the old world, whatever they were. And it's this spreading of fear. I think all of us are infected by it to a certain extent, because I, you know, those videos now are pretty inescapable. Whatever media platform you're on, you're, you know, you risk being exposed to horrific scenes at any given moment in your day. You can see a clip of, you know, some poor woman being, you know, dragged out of her car, possibly beaten up by these ICE agents, masked men, possibly in front of her children on the school line. I mean, you know, so we're, we're all being exposed to these on purpose. On purpose to these horrific scenes. And I think that's very much by design. And, you know, to bring it back to Donald Trump. Trump, it is a reason among many for his falling approval ratings in the society while people still support, very much so Democrats and Republicans. What he's done at the border and the idea of not having essentially an open way into the country for new illegal migrants, there's not a lot of support and including ebbing support inside the Republican Party for the tactics that are being used inside this country. And I think there are a lot of people, my guess is including a lot of people who voted for Donald Trump because he thought he was going to bring down prices on day one like he said he was going to do. I don't think they voted for cutting research funding for cancer. I don't think they voted for, like, beating the crap out of immigrant mothers in front of their children and large groups of armed, masked men roaming the streets of our cities. I heard a horrific story recently about our neighbors to the north in Canada, which is very much integrated with the United States in so many different ways, and children at a high school in Canada who decided not to go to their mock trial competition in Chicago because some of the participants from the Canadian team were Canadian immigrants. They had, you know, Canadian citizenship but were afraid to go to Chicago. And the other kids agonized over it, took a vote, said, we got to stand in solidarity with our team members. I mean, come on.
- [38:20]
Tim Miller
That's so sad. The Democrats are, it's so related to this. They're folks in the military. A lot of veterans in Congress, Mark Kelly and Justin Crow and Ellis Slotkin and others, put out a video talking about it kind of as a message to soldiers. And I think this would also apply to people working for Border Patrol, et cetera, telling them to follow their oath and not follow unlawful orders. This video has been getting a lot of attention on Fox in particular. So I want to play for you a little bit of Jason Crow. He's Democratic congressman from Colorado, from my original home district in Colorado. And then a little bit from Stephen Miller responding to that.
- [38:56]
Jason Crow
Let's listen, Martha. We're standing by our troops, our service members, who are often put in very difficult positions, and Donald Trump has put them in very difficult positions and has alluded to putting them in even more difficult positions in the months and years ahead. So we are reminding folks about what the Uniform Code of Military justice is, what the Constitution says, what the law of war says. You know, this is really no different than what I did with my infantry platoon in advance of deploying to Iraq in 2003. I trained these young soldiers on their obligation to comply with the law of war, to comply with the Constitution. And what is a lawful versus a lawful unlawful order?
- [39:36]
Tim Miller
An incredible video, Stephen, and one that you see as insurrection. It is insurrection plainly, directly, without question.
- [39:46]
Susan Glasser
It is insurrection plainly, directly, without question. And up is down, and yes is no. And the truth shall set you free. Tim, you know, it's, look, this is a Norwellian full scale moment. That's, you know, that's a scene where the regime's, you know, chief propagandist goes on his propaganda network and, you know, shoulder pads puffing, you know, says, you know, arrest this man. He's a traitor. He's a, you know, he's treasonous. And just to connect it to our, our previous conversation, I mean, and I don't mean to, to make light of it, but it's so absurd. I, I, we don't need to analyze this, okay? It's, it's literally absurd. It's, it's actually absurd to say that the people who are saying, please, you know, in a time when you're being asked to push the boundaries of what is lawful, what is legal, in a time when the leadership of our country is telling our uniformed military that their new job that they did not sign up for is to fight the enemy within this country, that is a radical shift in the definition of what national security is. It is radically at odds and antithetical to what our nonpartisan military actually is designed for. And what they take an oath to bears reminding and repeating. And they take an oath not to Donald Trump, but to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of this country. Just a final note, because it connects, I think, this question of the immigrants and this idea is the fear that's spreading in that community by design of Stephen Miller and others. It might not have penetrated to the masters of the universe of Silicon Valley, but I think it is for many people starting to connect. And I know you detect the whiff of something. And I hear you on Republicans breaking with Trump on Capitol Hill over the Epstein vote. But for me, it is about understanding that they spread the fear not just to the immigrants. And my very favorite sign that I saw in the recent round of no Kings protests really speaks to this. And you know, it's, it's a little literary here. But, you know, first they came for the immigrants and I spoke up because I knew the rest of the effing poem like that, you know, and, and that's right. I mean, that's, that's the difference, hopefully from the 1930s, is, is that, you know, people, they, they're onto the script. They got the plot line. Stephen Miller.
- [42:31]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I like that one political note on this. I want the Democrats to stand up and speak out on everything. So I encourage them for doing this. I do think that, like I can think about 100 topics I would like Democrats fighting on FOX about over this one. So just that's, that's all. So I'm just saying it's kind of like sort of like a compliment sandwich with a kid where you're encouraging them. It's like, good job. Okay, you're fighting him and you're going on Fox. That's good. But I've got, I've got a couple other suggestions on topics for going on Fox where I think we're maybe on a little stronger turf with the audience. Lastly, it's been a veep week for me. I had Vice President Harris yesterday. We are headed to Vice President Cheney's funeral after this. We're taping a little early, so I leave it to you. Do you have any thoughts on either veep or discussion items? Anything that you want to get off your chest before you end the show?
- [43:22]
Susan Glasser
Feel free to dish to us on, you know, what was the backstage vibe with, you know, the former Vice president, President Harris? I mean, did you feel like this is her return to the political scene or is it just, is it kind of book sales extravaganza?
- [43:39]
Tim Miller
I don't, I think that she's open to all of it. I do think that she was, it was funny and she was a little looser during our conversation. We were joking and I was, I made a couple off color jokes, as I do, and she went along with and you know, but she was sort of of vacillating back between that and kind of talking points and stump speech and stuff. And that's natural. But it didn't feel like it was the sign of somebody who didn't have at least the Possibility of political future in the back of her mind still. I guess I would just say, you know, a politician. It wasn't Al Gore with the beard and the sweater and the midlife crisis. It wasn't that. It was definitely certainly somebody that had a political ember still. And I will say, look, and I think that we're so far away from 2028 hot stove stuff, so I almost hate to engage in it even. And certainly there'd be people that would say that she should not do it for a variety of reasons, we're not going back. Which was one of her comments, maybe being one of them, but I can see how she might think the other way. The lines were wrapped around the block in Tennessee, and it was in Nashville, but it was sold out. Ryman Auditorium, massive auditorium. People in there were pumped to see her. Very diverse crowd. And she still has a big well of support, particularly in the black community. But across the board, I've been in those shoes. I remember I always tell a story about Jon Huntsman when we were on our hopeless campaign, walking down the streets of Manchester, New Hampshire, and every block somebody being like, I'm for you. We love you, John. And then we'd get to dinner and he'd be like, I don't know, I'm feeling something in the streets, Tim. And I'm like, oh, my God, there's nothing happening in the streets. But that was eight people. This was. This was 2,500 people screaming. So you can imagine how somebody might hear that and think, oh, okay, I don't know, we'll see what the future holds. So that would be my thoughts on what the vibe was with Kamala.
- [45:33]
Susan Glasser
Yeah. And look, I mean, we're also in a world where nine months in, maybe you and I are not stunned by the series of worst case scenarios that are playing out before us. But I think a lot of people are, and they're feeling the pain of the Trump economy and a sense of, I'll do anything to show my concern about this moment. And I think that is part of the moment. Look at those election results. I know it seems like an eon ago, but it wasn't even a month ago. People really wanted to show up. They really wanted to show up. What can I do? I get that everywhere. I'm sure you get that everywhere. What can I, as an individual do? So that definitely meets the moment, but I don't know. We're going to Vice President Cheney's funeral right now, and I feel like, to me, it'll be interesting to See, and I think Vice President Harris will be there, Vice President Gore, who you mentioned, will be there. Biden will be there, George W. Bush will be there. But just listing those names, it's not names of the moment. In many ways, it's a portal to the past, right?
- [46:38]
Tim Miller
Yeah. I suspect it will be an interesting thing to watch. I suspect that there will be significantly more Democratic elected officials there than Republicans. Republicans.
- [46:47]
Susan Glasser
I don't think I. Yeah, I'll be shocked if there's many Republicans there at all, frankly, which is remarkable when you consider who we're talking about here.
- [46:56]
Tim Miller
Not to compare myself to Dick Cheney. We're different in many different ways.
- [46:59]
Susan Glasser
I'm gonna endorse that.
- [47:01]
Tim Miller
But the. It is reminiscent of my book. I was like, I came to D.C. for my book launch party, and it was like there were more people from Pete Buttigieg's campaign at my book launch in D.C. than there were from any job that all of the jobs I had had actually in my life in politics combined. There were a couple brave soldier friends who showed up, but very few. So, you know, that's kind of how things are in politics.
- [47:24]
Susan Glasser
You know, things change. You know, the center cannot hold things.
- [47:27]
Tim Miller
Paula, Bart, Susan Glasser, I always appreciate your time and wisdom. We'll see you up at the cathedral. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow with another edition of the podcast. I'm going to see geese tonight in New York. I need. I need to cleanse the palate after Dick Cheney. So luckily we've got a guest who's going to be able to carry me if I'm moving a little slow. Susan, thanks so much, Tim.
- [47:46]
Susan Glasser
It's really great to be with you. Thank you.
- [47:48]
Tim Miller
See, y'. All.
- [47:50]
Musical Guest
I was a sailor, I was a sailor and now I'm a boat. I was a car, I was, was the car and now I'm the RO And I was kneeling on the turnpike with an angel down my throat she said, you don't know what it's like to bow down, down, down to Maria's dead bones. Now I'm in hell with Maria's bones Talking to myself. Oh no, you don't know what life she said he with least money has most to sell, sell, sell and she said I met angels so deep undercover that they sit on Solomon's Corner and you don't know what it's like, you don't know what it's like, you don't know what it's like about down, down, down, down to Maria's Borg.
- [49:53]
Tim Miller
The Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.