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- [00:01]
Tim Miller
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- [00:31]
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- [01:08]
Tim Miller
See why 4 out of 5 employers who post a job on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. The smartest way to hire. And right now, you can try ZipRecruiter for free. That's right, free. And@ziprecruiter.com Zip. That's ZipRecruiter.com Zip ZipRecruiter.com Zip. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is 2 July 2026. Delight. Welcome back to the show. Staff writer at the New Yorker and host Kelly, co host of its Political Scene podcast. Her most recent book is the Divider, co authored with her husband, Peter Baker. It's Susan Glasser. What's going on, Susan?
- [02:00]
Susan Glasser
Hey, man. So great to be with you. What a treat.
- [02:03]
Tim Miller
Welcome back to the show. Not much to talk about. Not a lot happening out there. Not a lot of embarrassments for America on the world stage or anything. It's hard to decide where to start, but I think I want to hit on corruption because it didn't have a time to get into it yesterday. I think Maggie mentioned it briefly on the pod, but Trump had to file financial disclosures. I guess it's something that the financial disclosures are getting filed, you know, I mean, these small victories in this day and age. It revealed just an insane amount of graft and corruption. He brought in at least $2.2 billion, which is compared to much, much less than that from before he returned to the presidency. A lot of this money is from crypto. All this money is from foreign countries, including the investment firm tied to the uae. We're going to get into the cutter plane a little bit. I guess that's more of government grift. But it is pretty astonishing that he has just decided that he is going to make as much money from this as possible, as if he is, you know, Vladimir Putin or the corrupt dictator of country that does not have a rule of law.
- [03:18]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, you know, the thing is, maybe
- [03:22]
Tim Miller
we are one of those countries doesn't have a rule of law, at least when it comes to the President of the United States.
- [03:26]
Susan Glasser
Well, I mean, actually that is Donald Trump's theory of the case, which is that no laws apply to him. And the Supreme Court in some ways has gone along with that theory. You know, there's the sort of you and what army are going to do anything about it? Challenge to this. Right. What accountability is there for a president who decides to shamelessly monetize the presidency? There is increasing evidence that he's doing things like selling off pardons. This crypto business that Donald Trump and his sons have gotten into, along with the sons, I should point out of Steve Witkoff, his all purpose everything envoy, literally making billions of dollars. We know about the investment by the UAE investment fund. We do not have a list of the other investors who have put more than $2 billion, $2 billion in the pocket of Donald Trump. This is the guy who went literally like steam flowing out of his ears, crazy over the idea that, you know, heaven forbid and Joe Biden's son had embarrassed the country by making money off of his father's name. And by the way, an embarrassment, let's be honest, that Hunter Biden was trading off of his father's name and the appearance that he might have access when he joined the board of ukra and Energy Co. When Joe Biden was vice president. You know what that is? That's an embarrassment. We're talking though, about maybe millions of dollars. Add many, many, many zeros here to the scale of corruption from Donald Trump. And from my perspective, you know, it's one of those things. Are we so inured to this that people just won't care? Or is corruption the issue that finally causes people to break with Donald Trump? I mean, to me that is the question because it's where he's so profoundly different than essentially any of his predecessors. And we've had some crooked presidents, but
- [05:29]
Tim Miller
not this crooked, not anything in even the ballpark. This doesn't even include also the stock trading. He's been doing something that our past presidents weren't doing. I want to just focus in on the Middle East. I mentioned the UAE deal, which is part of the bulk of the money, frankly, which is this massive crypto deal that the UAE is involved in. But then he also has some smaller for Trump. It'd be nice money for me. Licensing deals that are happening in these countries. 14 million in licensing deals for hotels in Qatar and in Saudi Arabia. That ties to the other corruption story from this week, which is our new Air Force One, which was gifted from Qatar. Trump took his first flight on that. The new plane that he feels is more appropriate to his status, which again I think should be noteworthy, was kind of a like a hand me down from Qatar. They wanted a fancier plane for themselves. So that's where we are right now as a country. We're taking cutter's hand me downs. But if you tie all this together, he's got a light a personal. So he's making personal money with a licensing deal in Qatar and then he also is taking gifts from Qatar for the country that he's then going to use for his presidential library, all the while being involved in negotiations with an active war that involves Qatar. I mean, Iran is attacking Qatar as part of the kind of decrease fire that we're in right now. And so I don't know if he's making decisions entirely based on that, you know, brown paper bag of 14 million or the new fancy plane he's on. But it certainly is influencing and like this is why, you know, we have rules around this sort of thing, like the corruption, the money that he's making is tied directly to ongoing life or death policy affecting American citizens.
- [07:20]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, I think that's such an important point, Tim. In fact, Gutter, which gifted Donald Trump, in effect personally gifted him a $400 million plan. The American taxpayers have paid an uncertain amount, hundreds of millions of dollars additionally to fit it up in order to have the communications and security gear required for the president to fly on it. So, you know, we've paid hundreds of millions of dollars for this gift that Donald Trump now proposes to take with him to his, quote, presidential library. But actually it seems that he, he wants to keep using this plane personally. And you know, where's the outrage? To quote Bob Dole, where's the outrage? But Qatar is not only a key country that is affected by Donald Trump's decision to undertake this conflict in the Middle east against Iran. Qatar plays a key role as an Intermediary and negotiator, both with Hamas, where it has been the key broker of talks over the last few years, as well as with the Iranians intermittently. And, you know, it's that welter of apparent conflicts of interest and the lack of transparency, that was exactly what the entire framework of post Watergate laws was designed to combat. Right. The idea that people had after Nixon's excesses and, you know, there were terrible scandals in that administration, though the dollar figures were way modest compared with Donald Trump's, including Nixon's Vice President Spiro Agnew literally taking payoffs while he was in high office. As a result of that, which Americans across the spectrum viewed as a national embarrassment, a humiliation, an entire framework of laws was passed in this country. And it seems like Donald Trump's mission is to undo the final remaining shreds of these post Watergate laws. And they were designed to have transparency and accountability, that if people were contributing to our politicians, they should do so with strict limits. They should do so with strict disclosure requirements. That's basically all gone now. It's basically all gone. The world as we know it. Growing up, I started out as a young reporter in Washington. Tim. It seems quaint. We would write these stories about, like, you know, Tim Miller, congressional candidate receives like $1,000, you know, thousand dollar PAC contribution, you know, from an industry in which, you know, his family has an interest. Isn't this a scandal? This is the world that we came up in, and it's a world that Donald Trump has sort of stood on its head.
- [09:58]
Tim Miller
Yeah, we talked about this a little bit. David French, after the Supreme Court rulings this week about the degree to which those post Watergate reforms have just been completely gutted. And it kind of informs a little bit the thinking about, you know, what Democrats might do if they ever get back into power. Where at some level, I think that my instinct and the instincts of Sarah really goes to them. Every once in a while I go to a pro democracy meetup. Sarah's usually handling that for the bulwarks. It's a little bit more in her wheelhouse. We all have our strengths, but you go to these things and it's like everybody's earnest. Everybody is thinking about what reforms can trump proof the presidency in the future. And then you look at the Supreme Court's rulings, and so it radicalizes people. You start to think maybe that you can't create rules because there will always be somebody that breaks rules. And you have to look to different types of strategies for accruing power, and then you end up in a race to the bottom. I don't know. It's a pretty depressing thing to mull on our 250th anniversary, but it's extremely relevant this week. I don't know if you have any deep thoughts on that topic.
- [11:14]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, I was thinking about the timing of this. It's sort of this painful juxtaposition between the soaring aspirations that we're meant to be celebrating of the found, the sort of gritty, cold, hard, grubby cash reality of the American presidency right now. It came up in your conversation with David French because the Supreme Court this week has basically gotten rid of the last of the meaningful kind of restrictions on not just contribution limits post Watergate, but the idea that you couldn't have unlimited amounts of essentially unaccountable cash flowing in coordination to parties and candidates. And that's just basically gone now. Which is why we've had this age
- [12:01]
Tim Miller
of the hyper empowered as well as the independent agencies. That was the other thing that was this way.
- [12:04]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, well, exactly. The independent agencies that, that predates Watergate. That goes all the way back to the New Deal. You know, people call them conservatives. They're not. It's a far right, radical court. Donald Trump is also a radical president, although, interestingly, he doesn't necessarily share the same far right ideology that the justices are imposing right now. You know, where they overlap, the justices have upheld him. Where they don't overlap, the justices have come in and narrowly reproved Donald Trump on things like tariffs and outright overturning the Constitution's guarantee of birthright citizenship. But, you know, it seems to me that the combination of an executive that knows no boundaries and a Supreme Court that is asserting powers at the expense of Congress that we've never seen before, that is something that really changes the balance of power in a way that invites us to contemplate that on the 250th anniversary. I mean, I just, I think that the post Trump presidency is going to test us still in entirely different ways. And I think our experience with the Joe Biden interregnum, I guess, as it will come to be known, shows that Democrats, they have talked about an existential threat. They talked about, you know, trying to put the guardrails back on, but they actually did not do that even when they controlled the Senate and the House at the beginning of the Biden presidency. And they missed their, their window to do it, honestly. So that tells me they didn't make it as much of a priority as their Rhetoric would have suggested, yeah, this
- [13:38]
Tim Miller
was kind of the HR1 conversation, right. Which ends up being this very big kind of grab bag of a lot of special interest, like liberal special interest groups, plans with varying degrees of, you know, merit to them. But it was like never, like not really a serious effort to get it passed. And I think they could have had a more tailored anti corruption democracy protecting bill that might have fared better. But alas, here we are. I do also want to mention it's not just Trump that's breaking the corruption rules this week. Speaking of cash, Cash Patel, his FBI director, also failed to properly disclose a six figure purchase of stock in a bitcoin fueled business intelligence and mobile software company that's contracted with the Department of Justice. I guess the one thing will be true, your colleagues at the New Yorker, the investigative reporters, the Jane Mayers of the world and her successors, they're going to have work for a lifetime following the administration. The jobs report is bad this morning, but it is a little bit of a make work for investigative reporters in
- [14:36]
Susan Glasser
2029 and it's going to be like a lifetime employment clause. I mean, remember, people are still doing investigative work and putting out books every year about Richard Nixon.
- [14:48]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [14:49]
Susan Glasser
So again, add zeros and add decades to this work when it comes to Donald Trump. And you know, that's one where I do think, you know, you listen to Trump's overheated claims. You know, he went out to North Dakota this week to have the Teddy Roosevelt Presidential library making these sort of just grotesquely, you know, historically inaccurate and inflated claims for his own grandeur and how it somehow mirrors that of Teddy Roosevelt, which, you know, is making anyone who knows the history of Teddy Roosevelt roll in their graves. You know, this sort of archetype of the Progressive era, father of American conservationism, and on you could go. But Donald Trump is what you might call a consequentialist and a maximalist in his desires to be seen as mattering. And I do think that his two terms in office mark some kind of a very definitive break with many of the norms, traditions, rules, laws and history of the American presidency. We don't know where it's going to take us, but I think it's, that's one where I'm going to say Donald Trump is right, that he is a consequential president who's, who's changing the story of our republic.
- [16:03]
Tim Miller
Yeah, right up there with Mao, Stalin, all the other people that he said he wanted to be mentioned with. Did you see the video? I'm Taking us on a sidetrack for a second. But you mentioned the Teddy Roosevelt Library. Did you see the video of Trump Talking to the A.I. teddy Roosevelt?
- [16:18]
Susan Glasser
Yeah.
- [16:18]
Tim Miller
It was extremely disorienting. Do you consider the Panama Canal your greatest achievement?
- [16:27]
Teddy Roosevelt Hologram
Well.
- [16:28]
LifeLock Announcer
Well,
- [16:30]
Teddy Roosevelt Hologram
right then, yes. Good answer. The canal stands as one of my proudest battles, no question. But greatness is a strange thing. It isn't always the biggest or boldest job that matters most. Panama Canal showed what America could achieve if we held steady and acted fast when the world dragged its feet. That said, I measure my greatest work by the lives improved, parks set aside, food and drugs made safe, the square deal given to all, not just to a few. Still, when I stood in the mud watching those steam shuttles, knowing ships would pass through, changing the world's map forever, I felt I'd left a mark that would last.
- [17:13]
Susan Glasser
Okay, you did.
- [17:14]
Teddy Roosevelt Hologram
Thank you.
- [17:17]
Tim Miller
So, yeah, Trump is asking him about the Panama Canal, and then you have this kind of Teddy Roosevelt type. What would you even call it? What did they do at Coachella where they kind of beamed in the dead artists? Avatar, there's another word for it. I'm biking on, but we're getting close to the holiday. But, yeah, it's kind of this Teddy Roosevelt visage. And it's like he's answering the questions. I don't know. It felt dystopia. I was getting very harsh, hard, dystopia vibes from it.
- [17:49]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, dystopia. But also, it was this revealing exchange, Tim. I thought it was incredibly amazing. Donald Trump is like, whoa, Teddy, what's your greatest accomplishment? Is it the Panama Canal? And Teddy Roosevelt is saying, oh, no, my thing is about the number of people that I helped. And to me, that is the incredible difference. Again, Roosevelt, the icon of the American Progressive era movement, the idea that government can constrain rampaging monopolists, rampaging Gilded Age businessmen, the Elon Musks and toxic billionaires of their era. That's what Roosevelt was about. Roosevelt was about national parks and conservation and the environment. He was about the idea that immigrants are teaming into our cities. We need to create an infrastructure to help them. This is the moment of the Settlement House movement. Teddy Roosevelt, by the way, an extremely. Not only a sort of educated man, a writer, a thinker, in fact, a prolific writer, a prolific reader in so many ways. Except for the narcissism. Right. You gotta give him that. Except for the narcissism. I would say he's about the polar opposite of Donald Trump. And in particular, because the Progressive Era was literally about the idea that government can do something and ought to do something to constrain and to work for the people of the country against the moneyed interest, which is the exact opposite literally of Donald Trump's sort of kleptocratic oligarchic view of government.
- [19:30]
Tim Miller
Also, just in the category of personal bravery, Donald Trump's not exactly a rough rider. He had the bone spurs, the bone spurs he hid from war. There's an image of the little bald eagle that goes to. And Trump gets really scared when he's in the office when he thinks the eagle's gonna peck him. So a lot of differences worry about
- [19:48]
Susan Glasser
the eagle's gonna peck him.
- [19:49]
Tim Miller
You haven't seen this video, Susan Glasser. It is so good. It is my favorite Donald Trump clip. It's the thing that I go to when I need joy.
- [19:57]
Susan Glasser
Favorite Donald Trump clip. Yeah, they're revealing something in this podcast which is unfortunate.
- [20:02]
Tim Miller
He's in Trump Tower and I don't know, they're doing like a photo shoot or something where he's trying to seem patriotic and there's a bald eagle and it's sitting next to him on his desk and the eagle goes to like peck him and Trump panics like the fucking bird is gonna kill him. It's really good. I'm gonna send it to you after.
- [20:22]
Susan Glasser
I actually don't know, although I do know that Donald Trump does not like animals.
- [20:28]
Tim Miller
There you go.
- [20:28]
Susan Glasser
Teddy Roosevelt, a big dog guy in addition to all sorts of pets. I think they had more pets at the White House in the Roosevelt presidency than in any other presidency. So contemplate that for your 250.
- [20:43]
Tim Miller
This episode is brought to you by the New York Times. It's kind of like the Ohio State University. You've got to say it with the V. Susan and I just talked about all the corruption news coming from the Trump administration. But before we able to get our takes on these stories, somebody else had to report them out. Somebody had to report out the facts. The foundation of news commentary is fact based reporting. This show and all the other blah, blah, blah podcasts you listen to depend on people doing real fact based reporting. I'm constantly consuming it from other places including New York Times going to be AP which I talked about in this podcast and their great reporting on our just tragic missile attack on the girls school in. We also got some fantastic beat reporters here at the Bulwark. My guy, Jonathan Cohn, Lauren Egan, et cetera, bringing work to you like the Times does. And also you should be supporting your local paper like I do here in New Orleans. Two Times stories we talked about today required a group of reporters doing a deep dive on Trump's new financial disclosures in the first. And the second was the breaking news report from the Times on Trump's first flight on the Qatari gifted Air Force One, just another example about how he's being bribed by foreign governments. These stories are examples of the results of fact based reporting. And now I get to blab about them and you get to decide what you think. So wherever you seek it out, nationally or locally, support fact based reporting. While we're laughing. The vice president's a jokester. Like that transition speaking yesterday.
- [22:17]
Susan Glasser
As good as your cash, Patel.
- [22:19]
Tim Miller
Thanks. The vice president was doing a little standup yesterday in front of our soldiers. I'm not sure how well it landed. I pulled one clip of it for you. Let's give that a watch.
- [22:33]
Vice President (possibly Joe Biden)
Well, because I'm speaking to all of you, our great patriots and service members. I've got the angel on my shoulder saying, JD don't be partisan. We're making this nonpartisan. And then I've got the devil on my shoulder who wants to talk about every time that Joe Biden fell up or down the stairs and the media didn't care about that. But if I did it one time, if I did it one time, it would be a major, major story.
- [22:57]
Tim Miller
I think I saw one smile there on the video, did a couple, he had a couple other jokes, fell flat. I'm not going to punish the audience with not really his strength.
- [23:08]
Susan Glasser
Hard to call that a joke, isn't it? I'm not the best judge of stand up comedy, but my guess is that, you know, JD has appropriately steered away from that line of work. These guys are masters of the whataboutism. And when Donald Trump is now officially 80 years old and he clutches that handrail like, you know, it's the only thing between him and Armageddon. I mean, Trump's age, his temperament, his ability to do the job, his ability even to stay awake in the course of a photo op is increasingly in question. And it's one of those ones where JD Is going to have a tougher time making this comparison when the argument to the American public is don't believe your own lying eyes when it comes to Donald Trump. And I will say that it's always posed a challenge to talk about a president and age, no matter what. We saw that with Biden. The difference with Trump is that there are so many pathologies to unpack and unravel. You know, what can we attribute to age related diminution versus just his general self. But Trump is aging before our eyes. That's very clear. I think we have gone for like literally like two weeks in a row where every single day he was on camera falling asleep and then he forces, you know, the people around him. One of my favorite clips recently was Marco Rubio up on Capitol Hill testifying and member, I think it was Ted Lieu plays a clip for him of Donald Trump falling asleep while Rubio is extolling his brilliant leadership. And he says, like Mr. Secretary of State, what do you think about the President falling asleep? And Mark Ruby says, how dare you say that? The President has never fallen asleep in front of me. Then they play it again and he says, you know, do you like to change your testimony? And he's like, no, how dare you say that? You know, play that for J.D. vance. That would be awesome. I would love to see what J.D. vance's answer would be to that at a press conference.
- [25:09]
Tim Miller
It also is just such a weird thing to do in front of the troops. Like we're in the 250 anniversary. You're supposed to be stirring the spirits, trying to lift them up a little bit. We're in the middle of a conflict and it's like we're going to do Biden stairs jokes. That's just kind of, I don't know, man. It didn't really have it. I know you're not a Catholic, Susan, but JVL is dealing with some family matters and he's out this week, so I didn't get to kind of sit with him and ruminate over JD's interview with Laura Ingraham where he's talking about his book Communion and his Catholic conversion. See what you want about Laura Ingraham. I think that she has some traits that go against what I learned as a Catholic schoolboy growing up, but whatever. She's been a Catholic for a while, talks about it a lot. They got together. And I do have to play for you how JD explains the administration's immigration policies in the context of his Catholic conversion.
- [26:04]
Vice President (possibly Joe Biden)
The other thing, Laura, I'd say that my faith really motivates me towards is to remember that our economic policy, it doesn't exist for corporations, it doesn't exist for Wall Street. As much as we want everybody to be successful, it exists to support the dignity of human beings. We want every American to be able to raise a family, to be able to support themselves in comfort and in dignity. That's why we're trying to Bring investment in manufacturing back to the United States of America. That's why we don't like low wage foreigners coming in and undercutting the wages of American workers. We want normal Americans to be able to live a dignified life. And I think that's a very, very Christian concept.
- [26:46]
Tim Miller
Can I just say also, I do this every time, but as a Catholic, cradle Catholic, we don't say Christian concepts about our things. It's not what we say. You need to convert to our mores. Okay? You're on your book tour. That's just not how we talk. And either way, it's not a Catholic or a Christian concept. I don't believe that. You want to make sure you only help the normal Americans. And in order to help the normal Americans, we need to punish low wage foreigners. I've never heard a Pope talk like that. I don't believe that's correct.
- [27:18]
Susan Glasser
Well, no, not only do popes not talk like that, but this Pope has proven to be the single most successful, I think rebutter of J.D. vance's warped and distorted not only theology but view of the role of government in the world. And it's in a fight between the Pope and J.D. vance over what constitutes Catholic interpretation of Jesus's teachings. I mean, you know, most people are going to go with the Pope every time. And it just, it's so flagrantly trolling us, right, to talk about normal Americans and to use that phrase, dignity. Actually, it was interesting. I hadn't seen the clip. So the word dignity repeated by JD Vance over and over again in the context of this dehumanizing, divisive, cruel policy, it sort of hit me in the stomach there, you know, Tim, I mean, it's really to talk about human dignity in the same sentence as the people who have imprisoned immigrants who've done nothing wrong except seek a better life in this country, throwing them in these ice prisons, you know, with no process, with no, I mean, thousands and thousands of court decisions have said it's not my opinion that I'm offering here. Thousands and tens of thousands of court decisions since Trump and Vance came into office saying that what they are doing to immigrants is an abusive power, that it's wrong and it's a violation not only of the rule of law, but of basic principles of human decency.
- [28:54]
Tim Miller
They have dignity as well. I've got nothing to add to that. That's really good. Hologram was what came to me.
- [28:59]
Teddy Roosevelt Hologram
Hologram.
- [29:00]
Tim Miller
It was a Teddy Roosevelt hologram. It came to me. There we go.
- [29:03]
Susan Glasser
We've got to Go to Disney and revisit the hall of the Presidents.
- [29:08]
Tim Miller
I don't know what it is. The hall of the Presidents. I loved as a kid. Loved. Talk about being a nerdy elementary school student. You're at Disney World and the other children wanted to go, whatever, meet Pluto or meet the princesses and ride on Space Mountain. I was like, we gotta go to the hall of Presidents. So as a dorky child, and I loved it. There's something about the AI Hologram that moves us into the uncanny valley in a way I don't like. You know, I don't know. It feels unhuman. The hall of the Presidents, it's so weird. It's so trippy and like, it's scripted. I'm not sure, I'm not sure what it is, but there's some kind of line there between the hall of the Presidents and the AI Hologram, Teddy Roosevelt, that, that falls to a place I don't, I don't enjoy. All right, everybody, we're taking back the Fourth at the Bulwark. Miniature American flags for some, abortions for others. Bulwark plus subscriptions for yet a third group, to borrow from the Simpsons. We are running our 4th of July sale right now. It's happening this weekend. You get a full year membership for everything we offer on our website for just 86 bucks, 14% off because of this holiday, this flag, this country, it belongs to all of us. Not one party, not one person. I got my Fourth of July playlist. It's epic. I'm giving that to you for free. All right, we're putting that in the show notes right here. $0 for the 4th of July playlist. $86 of value from that playlist and all the other reporting and commentary we're doing here at the Bulwark sale runs all the way through this weekend. Come join us. TheBullork.com July 4th that's TheBullwerk.com July 4th link in the show notes to the offer and the playlist. I want to just run through some foreign policy news. I guess this is kind of foreign policy. We'll start with the trade policy. The Trump administration decided not to renew the usmca, which is pretty interesting because Donald Trump said that was the best agreement we've ever made, the best trade deal of all time. So I think it's strange that they would not renew the best trade deal of all time. I guess the best can always get better. They're now going to do yearly reviews where Trump shakes down the leaders of Mexico and Canada, I guess, is the new plan, but not great. I mean, the farmers. Farmers, one hit after another for the farmers. It seems like every Trump policy is like. It's almost like an elaborate plot to see how much he can piss off the farmers and still run up the numbers in rural America. But I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on them backing off the usmca?
- [31:45]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, I mean, well, as far as the farmers go, Donald Trump loves to provide evidence that, you know, his ride or die supporters will be there. No matter how much he humiliates them, no matter how much he backs away from policies that would support him, no matter much how much he fails to deliver the things that he said he would deliver, that's, to Trump, that's like the ultimate sort of political own, and he loves that move. I also wouldn't underestimate the extent to which Donald Trump really has, at this point, an extremely vindictive view of our neighbors, in particular of Canada. Anything he can do to screw Canada. And Mark Carney, the Prime Minister, who has, you know, made standing up to Donald Trump and creating an alternate pathway for the middle powers of the world who still believe in quaint concepts like liberal democracy. You know, this is, I think, pretty personal for Trump in ways that we may be understating. And then I think the most important thing is the thing that you pointed out, Tim, which is that it's. It's a way of aggrandizing his power. And the more that we don't have predictable, take it to the bank, treaties, deals, rules. But everything depends upon the munificence of the czar. That's Donald Trump's preferred method of not just policymaking, but economic governance. And he sees the economy in ways that is very antithetical to traditional free market, republican capitalism. It's much more a monarchical view of the right of the Lord to intervene and control the economy, to take stakes in companies, to create national champions, and to have all deals flow through him in some way. And when all deals flow through you, you know what happens? Some of it sticks, shall we say?
- [33:30]
Tim Miller
It's a good point on the personal relationships, because it's not just Garnet Shinebaum, too, in Mexico, have really, like, shown backbone a number of times. It's interesting. Our two closest neighbors at times have shown more willingness to stand up to Trump's ridiculousness. I guess the nice thing you can say about it than some of our other allies. This is kind of one of these. We all know this stories, but I think it just bears mentioning the ap this big breakdown of what happened with the missile that we shot into the girls school in Iran. And they basically reconstruct the strike on the school in Manob. And they have a former Pentagon official telling the AP that the bombing came as a result of changes by the administration to reduce staff for mitigating civilian harm. They had these no strike lists that they were doing work on that had been stopped. Meanwhile, the Pentagon still hasn't released its findings. Hegseth just this week said that they'll do so when the time is right. Trump last week said, I don't know if they're ever going to solve whose fault it was. There are missiles flying everywhere. So, you know, the administration just refuses to do the obvious here and wants us to not believe our lion eyes when it comes to this missile attack on the school in Iran.
- [34:46]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think it's really important in a conflict. The difference between, you know, a Democratic military and something like Vladimir Putin's Russia is not only not to engage in the deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure or civilian sites like a school, but when those things happen, and they do happen in war, to investigate them, to be transparent, to make amends, to try to understand what happened and to do what you can to mitigate that. The United States actually has a long experience because of all the post 911 wars that it fought in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and trying to mitigate civilian harm. And a lot of what happened when Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth came in talking about liberating the war fighters to do their war fighting, was essentially saying, we don't want to have those guardrails. We don't want to have those constraints that the Pentagon, even under a Republican president, George W. Bush, worked to create ways of minimizing civilian casualties. You know, Pete Hegseth literally got his job by his on air advocacy on Fox News in the first term to make sure that service members who had been accused of atrocities against civilians in Iraq would not be held accountable. That's how he got his job. Donald Trump liked what he had to say on tv. And Trump actually overruled his own military chain of command, you know, largely at the behest of Pete Hegseth. That tells you a lot about Pete Hegseth and what his attitude toward civilian casualties is, unfortunately.
- [36:26]
Tim Miller
Are we still at war with Iran? Do you know what's happening, what the status is? I assume that we're coming up on the weekend. We'll probably do some. We'll probably do some shooting back and forth again. Once the markets are closed for the holiday.
- [36:37]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, I mean, you know, the usual dribble of propaganda and you know, sort of there was one that really caught my attention this week. You know, one outlet calling it Donald Trump's landmark Memorandum of Understanding. It's an interim ceasefire agreement that actually hasn't even proven effective at being a ceasefire because there's been an awful lot of firing, including this week, between two sides, for it to actually be called a meaningful ceasefire. More importantly, you know, there's no sign of any meaningful progress in the follow on talks that were supposed to be occurring in the course of the 60 days allocated in the ceasefire in which the United States and Iran were supposed to talk about the disposition of its nuclear program. The supposed to talk about new arrangements for the Strait of Hormuz. If anything, what we've seen over the weeks since this Memorandum of Understanding is that Iran's understanding of the memorandum is that the Strait of Hormuz is still under its control and essentially a spigot to be turned on and off at will in order to gain leverage in the negotiations, in order to show Donald Trump who's still in control, perhaps in order to raise revenue ultimately. But that is definitely not what Marco Rubio and others told us about the Memorandum of Understanding. And I would be very skeptical, Tim, that there will be any long term peace deal that comes out of this. They may not start a full fledged shooting war again in the short term. But I think it's very, very unlikely that there's going to be a long term stable peace between the United States and Iran.
- [38:22]
Tim Miller
As we move over to what's happening in Ukraine, obviously the same, this stuff starts to just continue and I don't ever like to lose sight of it. What happened last night in Kyiv was awful. Another just full force attack from Russia onto a civilian population of Kyiv. My guy, Kaylen Robertson, who is there and doing just really critical reporting on the ground, was taking some video last night that I just want to play for folks.
- [38:50]
Kaylen Robertson
So right behind me is a hotel on fire, bang on in the center of Kyiv. This is a major city with millions
- [38:56]
Teddy Roosevelt Hologram
of people living here.
- [38:56]
Kaylen Robertson
You can hear ballistic missiles exploding in the sky right now. I'm going to go inside and this is obviously a deliberate attack on civilians. These are residential buildings. These are residential buildings bang on in a city center of millions of people here in Europe. And this is evidence. This is evidence not just of a nation that is deeply disturbed, but a nation that's willing to commit terrorism on a daily basis. And honestly that's why it's so important to see these images like this as well, because this. Oh, my God. So it looks like the attack is over and I just got out of the shelter and dawn is starting to break over the city and the entire city is filled with smoke.
- [39:36]
Tim Miller
That was last night.
- [39:37]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, I mean, you know, look, Trump, I mean, Putin's strategy for four years has been to target the population of Ukraine itself. It's a war in many ways, of extermination of the Ukrainian state. The very idea that this is an independent nation and he's making war on the people of Ukraine. What's interesting is that this massive attack on the capital is a response to Ukraine's increased pressure inside of Russia itself. It's had targeted attacks very different than Donald, than Putin. I gotta stop doing that. Ukraine has targeted oil refineries in Moscow, has targeted targets in St. Petersburg during the St. Petersburg Economic Forum. The pressure they've managed to put on Russia has meant, you know, days long lines for gas. They've been increasingly cutting off the Crimean Peninsula, which was illegally annexed by Russia in 2014. You know, there you can't find not only fuel right now, but food or other supplies are running out. So it's this increasing pressure on Putin's government inside of Russia, I think that prompted this attack on civilian population. But what's so notable is the, the asymmetry of it. You know, you have one country that's fighting for its existence, that's trying to target military targets, that's trying to shut down the Russian economy. And then you have basically random violence against individual Ukrainian citizens.
- [41:14]
Tim Miller
Yeah, indiscriminate bombing. There's a report this week about just like the life expectancy of people that Russia is bringing to the front as non existent, basically. And so Putin is just using humans for fuel, essentially, and just like sending more and more men to the front to get killed. In order to extend this. One of the questions about the thinking in the Kremlin, and you spent some time there, is whether we're back to possible instability. There were two news stories that jumped out at me this week. One is, this is like the Teddy Roosevelt AI. It's a very 2026 story. But somebody who doesn't have a history of betting on polymarket made a multimillion dollar bet that Putin would be out this year, which is the kind of thing that was happening with regards to the Israel war and our war, where people were like, oh, hey, there's this big bet that came in on Venezuela that happened before the Venezuela Attack. So that's something to watch. And then you did have former Russian Defense Minister Sergey Ivanov, one of Putin's closest allies, died. That could have been natural causes or who knows what's happening in Russia. But do you have any thoughts or, and it's hard to get kind of reporting on what's happening inside the Kremlin at this point, but just curious what your perspective is.
- [42:42]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, well, it is fascinating, by the way, Sergey Ivanov was a former KGB official like Vladimir Putin, although he was a high ranking general, unlike Putin who never made it past lieutenant colonel in the kgb. And Ivanov interestingly was initially pegged as potentially Putin's successor. And I think the world would have been a different place had Putin gone for him instead of Dmitry Medvedev, this sort of insignificant loyalist that he chose essentially as a placeholder. And then remember, he returned to the presidency after sitting out a term under Medvedev. Ivanov was a much stronger potential figure than Medvedev. And it's interesting that Putin chose, you know, not to have him be there. It's one of the many, many paths not taken. And it's a reminder that it's not all inevitable. Vladimir Putin was a very unlikely person when Peter and I were there in Moscow and in the first few years of Putin's tenure, if you had said to anyone that this guy, this unknown, 40 something obscure former Mid ranking KGB guy is going to be the longest serving Russian leader since Joseph Stalin, going to unleash the deadlies war in Europe Since World War II, by the way, it's now surpassed in terms of casualties, even the Napoleonic wars for Russia. The only deadlier wars in Russia's history were World War I and World War II. It's a catastrophe for the human capital in that society. Going back to your question about what does it mean for the stability of Putin's government, for the possibility of Russia fighting onwards. There is inherent instability in this level of, of murderousness. I believe the latest estimates I saw were that Russia has suffered 1.4 million casualties. So that's deaths and serious injuries in the course of this conflict. That is a staggering total. The reckless disregard for the Russian people itself is of course the great tragedy here. Vladimir Putin could have pursued a very different path. He led the nation down this path of catastrophe, war, death and disaster. But he's done so by reinstating a kind of 21st century version of a suffocating dictatorship. He has eliminated most forms of civil society. There is not a meaningful liberal opposition, I would say, that is functioning inside of Russia today. So the alternative might be even worse. Hardliners who believe Putin isn't prosecuting the war enough. And so it's bad to worse the scenarios that we contemplate for Russia right now.
- [45:32]
Tim Miller
I want to close with the America 250 stuff coming up this weekend. You won't be attending. You don't have any plans. Donald Trump said yesterday in North Dakota that he's planning an extremely long speech to prove his vigor. It's going to be really hot in D.C. i assume that the orange paint on his face will be melting. I was hostile to the idea that someone even turn on the speech on the fourth of July and ruin my piece on Saturday. But I do have my interest is a little bit piqued by old man in 107 degree weather. I don't know, you can watch it on videotape. But I don't know if you have any thoughts on the America250 celebration that has turned into a MAGA rally.
- [46:13]
Susan Glasser
Yeah, there is also the great algae conspiracy that Donald Trump has recently promoted
- [46:20]
Tim Miller
because of course it was yesterday in North Dakota. It's like, who put the algae in?
- [46:23]
Susan Glasser
Who put the algae in? You know, one of the great questions of our times, when they, when they have the America 250 time capsule and you know, somebody opens it up, let's open America 350. They're going to be, what in the holy hell is this algae reflecting pool situation here?
- [46:37]
Tim Miller
Or maybe they'll say this is the beginning. You know, now we're in a dystopian future and the algae has expanded to such a degree that it has ensconced the entire monument. Who knows?
- [46:47]
Susan Glasser
You know, I feel like I watched that movie late at night as a kid growing up. Donald Trump at a 9:50pm start time July 4th speech. I don't like to make predictions normally to him, but I feel like the ingredients are in place for one of these inauguration crowd size conspiracy theories that Donald Trump will be promoting forever. Because I really genuinely, who in the hell is going to actually physically be present for this speech? Even if they paid to bus in thousands of MAGA supporters? I mean, how much would you have to pay somebody to be there in 104 degree heat on the mall? You're not even allowed to have a chair. I don't even know if you're allowed to bring in like water to drink. I mean, it's hard to imagine that even a really genuine big America First Patriot Trump fan is going to sign up for that one. So it seems you can Watch it
- [47:53]
Tim Miller
on your own TV while you do sparklers outside in the backyard. You've got air conditioning.
- [47:58]
Susan Glasser
The crowd size issue, frankly, I mean, I feel like Donald Trump has already pre written the True Social in all caps in which he complains that the Democrats have somehow lied about the greatest crowd in the history of crowds. And Martin Luther King has nothing on this crowd. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing that you will not be surprised if the crowd size grievance is one that we're litigating for a while.
- [48:24]
Tim Miller
There's nobody there all week. Our guys Jared and Brendan back at Bulwark hq. I did a video with them because they've been walking down there and it's really sad. I mean, there's nobody. That's why the masturbating Uncle Sam got caught masturbating, because there was nobody else around. So it was easy to see him at me. You didn't know about that, Susan, that there was an uncle uncle guy dressed up in Uncle Sam costume that got arrested on Livestream for doing some personal business in front of the acrobatics tent at the Great American State Fair.
- [48:51]
Susan Glasser
Donald Trump's America, man. You know, somebody said to me the other day, and it's crazy because I just was thinking of this myself, but I guess I'm not the only person to have thought that we're really living in like Mr. Potter's America. You know, like, forget about Bedford Falls, like we're in Pottersville. Donald Trump is Pottersville. And the sort of caricature of the over the top celebration of all the things that we might think of as the inversion of the American dream. I mean, for me, that's what makes it hard. You ask a young person in particular today what could make them proud to be an American. And I know Gallup found that those numbers have plummeted in the last decade since Trump Trump took the presidency. Only I think it's like 53% of Americans even can summon any notion of being proud to be an American on the occasion of the 250th anniversary. And, you know, I have a hard time making that case to a young person right now, you know, about what it is supposed to be, except the idea that giving in isn't the answer either. And I think that's really important. And that if somebody can change the meaning of that history so radically, as Trump has done, then also somebody can change it back as well. And I just think that it's never too late to show up for the ideals that you claim to have. And even if you have sort of lost them along the way over the last decade, it's still possible to sort of show back up and say, hey, this isn't who we are and it isn't who we want to be. It isn't who we want to be.
- [50:41]
Teddy Roosevelt Hologram
Yeah.
- [50:41]
Tim Miller
I'm going to have Clint Smith on tomorrow for the show to kind of talk about this, talk about America, because he had this great book called how the Word is Passed that kind of looks about the history of slavery and how we process it and how we learn about it and how we update it. He's good about talking about being real, about what America is. But going back to the themes of Dr. King and of Lincoln, et cetera, about the promissory note part of America. And it's a little bit of a tough pitch to 13 year olds, but it's the best we got and he's out there doing it. So I look forward to that conversation tomorrow. Susan Glatzer, should we end with a laugh?
- [51:17]
Susan Glasser
You've already rocked me a little bit with the eagle and the Uncle Sam.
- [51:21]
Tim Miller
We've got the eagle. Producer Jason has the eagle video. I want to show it to you live. I want to experience it together. Let's pull it up. See, there's Trump with the eagle. If you're just listening, the eagle's on his arm now. It's nice. His hair is getting mussed. Now the eagle goes.
- [51:42]
Teddy Roosevelt Hologram
This bird is seriously dangerous.
- [51:46]
Tim Miller
You can see why I enjoy that so much. You know, really scared.
- [51:50]
Susan Glasser
This bird is seriously
- [51:54]
Tim Miller
okay. It's a good video podcast for people. If you want to really experience the full joy of the Bulwark Podcast on July 2, 2026, you can visit us on substack or YouTube. That is Susan Glasser. I always appreciate your insight and your wisdom on the show. We'll talk to you on the flip side.
- [52:11]
Susan Glasser
All right, thank you very much, tim, and happy 250th.
- [52:14]
Tim Miller
All right, enjoy your Independence Day. Everybody else will be back tomorrow with, as mentioned, Clint Smith. It's going to be a good one. We'll see you all then.
- [52:21]
Vice President (possibly Joe Biden)
Peace.
- [52:42]
Tim Miller
The Borg Podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
- [52:55]
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