The Bulwark Podcast – “Susan Rice: A Cancer in the Body Politic”

Date: September 17, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Susan Rice (Former U.N. Ambassador, National Security Advisor, and Chief Domestic Policy Advisor)

Overview

In this episode, Tim Miller welcomes back Susan Rice for a comprehensive discussion of political violence in America, the authoritarian response from the Trump administration, corruption surrounding TikTok and foreign affairs, the erosion of democratic norms, and the current state of Congressional negotiations on healthcare and spending. Rice brings her signature candidness and deep experience across domestic and foreign policy, offering worry and clarity about the trajectory of American democracy.

Key Topics and Insights

1. The Charlie Kirk Assassination and the Roots of Political Violence

[01:38]–[06:50]

• The Incident: A discussion of the recent assassination of right-wing commentator Charlie Kirk, exploring the released motives of the attacker and the effect on his transgender roommate.
• Condemnation of Violence:
  Susan Rice:

  “This is a horrific tragedy and we have had so much hate-fueled violence and political violence in this country over the years and in particular in recent years. There is no excuse, whether it's speech or thoughts or actions, that in any way shape or form justify the use of political violence.” [02:24]

• Hate as a Political Cancer:
  Rice reflects on her efforts with the Biden White House’s “United Against Hate” summit:

  “This is a cancer that has been growing inside our society and inside our body politic.” [03:23]

• Bipartisan Challenge:
  She shares disappointment that not a single sitting Republican official attended the summit, even victims of political violence like Steve Scalise:

  “We could not get a single Republican elected official...to stand side by side in the White House with members of the Biden administration to show unity against hate-fueled violence.” [04:37]

• Responsibility Across the Spectrum:

  “What we need to take away...is that people of all conscience and good faith, from whatever side of the political spectrum, need to not fan this violence...but to recognize that this is a terrible path that we've got to stop going down.” [05:50]

Notable Moment:
Tim Miller highlights the uniqueness of the attack's impact on both Kirk and the killer's trans roommate, who was caught unawares and is now subject to public scrutiny and backlash. [06:14]

2. Authoritarian Backlash and Free Speech Hypocrisy

[06:56]–[10:55]

• Trump Administration’s Response:
  Pam Bondi and J.D. Vance publicly advocate new restrictions targeting "hate speech," specifically around Kirk’s death, with Trump endorsing Bondi’s efforts.
• Orwellian Tactics:
  Susan Rice:

  “It's Orwellian...straight out of an authoritarian playbook. Demonize your political opponents, accuse them falsely of violence, turn the power of the state against them.” [07:44]

• Free Speech Double Standards:
  Rice calls out the right’s hypocrisy:

  “It has been the right for decades...that has championed so-called free speech...now it's free speech for me, not for thee.” [08:39]
  “Hate speech is anything they define it to be. Quoting Charlie Kirk's own words now publicly has been deemed hate speech, which is ironic.” [09:02]

• The Danger to Democracy:

  “What this administration appears to be on the cusp of doing is worse than what they have accused their opponents of doing. It's weaponizing protected speech against political opponents...then we are all but lost as a democracy.” [09:24]

Key Quote:
“Getting random people fired for their jobs is crazy. It is exactly what they decried...talking about cancel culture. And you had the Vice President of the United States encouraging it, which is pretty noxious.” – Tim Miller [10:23]

3. Ben Shapiro, Racial Polarization, and Obama’s Legacy

[10:55]–[14:15]

• Polarization Origins:
  Miller and Rice discuss Ben Shapiro’s assertion (aired in a clip) that Obama’s comments on Henry Louis Gates and Trayvon Martin “radicalized” the right, with Shapiro suggesting Obama overplayed the reality of structural racism.
• Rice’s Response:

  “It's so offensive, I don't even want to dignify it. Yeah, it's just trash.” [12:34]

• On Listening to Opponents:
  Miller and Rice weigh the merits of even platforming such arguments, with Rice emphasizing she engages with right-leaning views—including from her own conservative son—but feels some lines shouldn’t be crossed due to bad faith.

4. TikTok "Deal": Corruption and National Security Risks

[15:41]–[20:57]

• Structure of the Deal:
  TikTok’s Chinese parent ByteDance will retain 20%; 80% will go to a U.S. investor consortium including MAGA donors like Marc Andreessen.
• Concerns Over Algorithm Control:

  “If you control the algorithm, you're able to manipulate the views and the opinions of TikTok users...which the Chinese have already shown a willingness to do, distorting facts and poisoning the minds of Americans.” — Susan Rice [17:28]

• Circumventing Congress:
  Rice notes Trump is bypassing Congressional intent, putting national security at risk and allowing “cronies” to profit from a corrupt deal.
• Capture of Big Media by Trump Allies:
  Big tech and media platforms—TikTok, Twitter (Musk), Meta (Zuckerberg), CBS/Paramount—are increasingly run or influenced by pro-Trump donors, alarming for democracy and free speech.

5. Foreign Corruption: UAE, Crypto, and Selling National Security

[22:43]–[26:27]

• New UAE-Related Scandal:
  Trump-affiliated negotiators secured a $2 billion UAE investment in a crypto startup, followed two weeks later by White House approval to transfer advanced AI chips to the UAE.
• National Security Risk to Benefit Donors:

  “If there is...an implicit quid pro quo that would be really quite extraordinary to trade off US national security quite directly for financial gain for the President and his advisors.” — Susan Rice [25:06]

• No Precedent:

  “If it is proven indisputably, there’s really no precedent like in American history to something like that.” — Tim Miller [26:12]

6. Russia, NATO, and U.S. Weakness

[28:01]–[35:12]

• Escalation of Russian Aggression:
  Recent Russian drones have breached Polish and Romanian airspace.
• Trump's Tepid Response:
  Rice notes the administration’s reliance on delays, excuses, and lack of clear support for NATO or Ukraine:

  “We need the United States and President Trump to say clearly and unequivocally that we will not tolerate any kind of incursion into NATO, air, sea or land. And if Russia wants to pursue this, then they're coming after NATO as a whole. But you hear nothing like that.” [31:33]

• Summit with Putin:
  Trump’s red-carpet treatment for Putin on U.S. soil is described as “genuflection to a dictator.” [33:57]
• Danger of U.S. Retreat:

  "Every day that passes is a day that the US by default, is allowing Putin to continue to pulverize Ukraine." — Susan Rice [34:49]

7. Israel, Gaza, and Loss of American Influence

[35:20]–[38:33]

• Netanyahu’s Gaza Offensive:
  J Street statement: claims Israel’s current government is focused on “the destruction and indefinite occupation of Gaza.”
• Rice’s View:

  “How this leads to an end state that ultimately makes Israel more secure is a mystery to me and to many who believe that Israel has a right to security...There's no strategic objective, Netanyahu has no end game...not only is the human cost absolutely intolerable, but the strategic cost to Israel's interests, to the hostages, to Israel's standing...is astronomical.” [36:05–37:46]

8. Domestic Policy: ACA Subsidies and Budget Battles

[40:22]–[48:01]

• Democratic Strategy:
  Rice argues Democrats must forcefully confront the Republican agenda for harming Americans—particularly in health care—while defending constitutional norms.

  “That big, ugly bill will do more to harm regular Americans...It's a Robin Hood bill that steals from the poor, gives to the rich, and leaves many...desperate and poor and sick.” [40:43]

• ACA Subsidies Fight:
  With Obamacare subsidies expiring, Democrats face a strategic choice: fight to restore them (help the public, even if Republicans benefit) or let the pain become politically salient.

  “Healthcare costs...will go up 75% [without subsidies].... I think the American people will understand that it was the Republicans that took away their health care and it was the Democrats...that helped get it restored.” [45:21–46:30]

• Rejecting ‘Rope-a-Dope’ Budget Games:
  Rice insists Congress can’t tolerate the Trump administration’s “rescission” tactics—ignoring laws and spending limits as they please.

Memorable Quotes

• “This is a cancer that has been growing inside our society and inside our body politic.” — Susan Rice [03:23]
• “It's Orwellian...straight out of an authoritarian playbook. Demonize your political opponents, accuse them falsely of violence, turn the power of the state against them.” — Susan Rice [07:44]
• “Hate speech is anything they define it to be. Quoting Charlie Kirk's own words now publicly has been deemed hate speech, which is ironic.” — Susan Rice [09:02]
• “They are literally taking steps that will kill ordinary Americans.” — Susan Rice [41:13]
• “If there is...an implicit quid pro quo that would be really quite extraordinary to trade off US national security quite directly for financial gain for the President and his advisors.” — Susan Rice [25:06]
• “Red carpet, the troops, the flyover was all over the top. And...a disgusting genuflection to a dictator in Putin.” — Susan Rice [33:57]

Recommended Listening Segments (Timestamps)

• [02:24]–[06:14]: Rice’s powerful call against political violence and her summary of the “United Against Hate” summit
• [07:44]–[10:55]: Authoritarian moves on “hate speech" and free speech hypocrisy
• [15:41]–[20:57]: Dissection of the TikTok “deal,” tech/media concentration, and corruption concerns
• [22:43]–[26:27]: The UAE crypto scandal and trading national security for donor gain
• [28:41]–[31:33]: Russia’s escalation, NATO risk, and Trump’s tepid response
• [35:20]–[37:46]: Gaza’s devastation, Netanyahu’s motives, and loss of American influence
• [40:43]–[45:21]: The stakes of ACA subsidies, Republican budget maneuvers, and the Democratic path forward

Tone and Style

• Candid, urgent, at times with dark humor and incredulousness, especially regarding the authoritarian drift in American politics and the scale of corruption.
• Non-partisan concern for American democracy is at the forefront, supported by Rice’s deep experience at the highest levels.
• Rich in historical background and insider perspective, juxtaposed with frustration at current events.

This episode offers a thorough, unflinching examination of the current threats to democratic norms, both domestic and foreign, and the “cancer” of hate and violence growing in American political life. Tim Miller and Susan Rice provide both context and urgency for listeners alarmed by the erosion of democratic guardrails.