Symone Sanders-Townsend: The White House’s Goal Is Enacting Pain

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode: Symone Sanders-Townsend: The White House’s Goal Is Enacting Pain
Air Date: October 2, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Symone Sanders-Townsend (MSNBC co-host, former Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris adviser)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the ongoing government shutdown, the strategies of both Democratic and Republican parties, and the broader implications for American politics, messaging, and policy. Host Tim Miller welcomes political strategist and MSNBC host Symone Sanders-Townsend to dissect Democratic strategy, Republican objectives—especially around Project 2025—and big-picture lessons about party messaging, electoral strategies, and the contrast between principle and political tactics. The conversation is candid, energetic, and frequently laced with humor and inside-the-Beltway perspective.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Democratic Strategy During the Shutdown

• Symone praises the current unity among Senate Democrats around healthcare as a negotiating wedge in the shutdown.
  • "It's refreshing...to see Democratic elected officials coalescing around an issue, coalescing around healthcare..." (01:38, Sanders)
• The Democrats are using their limited leverage as the minority party to push for permanent ACA subsidies and restoration of Medicaid coverage threatened by Republican legislation.
• Symone expresses skepticism about Democrats getting everything on their wishlist ("this Medicaid piece I think is just a little bit tougher" — 04:12, Sanders) but sees a strong chance for winning on ACA subsidies.

2. Republican Strategy: Enacting Pain

• The Republicans’ openly stated goal—per Project 2025 and Russ Vought’s own framing—is to "enact pain on the federal workforce and the administrative state" (11:32, Sanders).
• Tim highlights the unprecedented nature of the White House admitting to, and even boasting about, using policy levers to inflict harm as “hostage taking the American citizens”:
  • “We are harming people. We are in charge. We are harming people. And if the Democrats don’t want us to harm people, then they need to give in.” (15:19, Miller)
• Both hosts agree that targeting blue states for cuts, and making policy overtly punitive, breaks with American governance norms.
  • “When the hurricane comes. I don’t think people think of hurricanes as woke yet.” (28:10, Sanders)

3. The Messaging War: Democrats’ Challenges

• Fox News and conservative media reinforce the Republican narrative with little dissent, making it difficult for Democratic messages to break through to those audiences.

  • Tim on watching Fox during travel: “It’s like a totally different universe…” (15:36, Miller)

• Symone advocates for Democrats to proactively send out aggressive, well-chosen communicators—tailored for each medium and audience (e.g., “Jared Moskowitz...Pete Aguilar...Jasmine Crockett” — 17:24–18:04, Sanders).

• Both stress the need for Democrats to enter “hostile territory” (Fox, right-wing podcasts) with a clear and unified message.

  • "To actually win this battle, you need a succinct message that is very clear, that makes the other side the bad guy and that you can take into hostile territory." (21:31, Miller)

• Technical pitfalls in Democratic comms, especially during the first hours after the shutdown, undermine their efforts (“if it were me, we'd have had our prescribers at nine...” — 20:58–21:07, Sanders).

4. Policy and Principle: On Targeting Opponents

• Responding to Jon Stewart’s idea that Democrats should “punish” red states as Republicans do (i.e., reward allies, punish adversaries), Symone strongly disagrees:
  • "I think this idea that the goal should be to enact pain on the people is wrong... Do the black people in Nebraska deserve to be defunded because Republicans acted a fool?" (29:11, Sanders)
• She distinguishes between accountability for bad actors (businesses, institutions, individuals complicit in illegal or bad-faith actions) vs. inflicting collective punishment.

5. Electoral Reality: Red State Senate Races & Democratic Strategy

• The path to Senate control requires new thinking, not just repeating strategies that only work in blue/purple states.
  • "The Democrats have been running the same types of candidates for the Senate in these red states... and they keep losing..." (41:35, Miller)
• Symone stresses organizing, candidate selection, and the need for sustained investment—highlighting examples from Nebraska and Iowa.
• Both express frustration with the Democratic establishment (notably Chuck Schumer) for lack of investment or support for winnable red/purple state races (e.g., the lack of support for Sherry Beasley in NC — 41:35–43:18).

6. Project 2025 and Conservative University Clampdown

• The Trump administration’s Project 2025 includes dictating university policies—tuition freezes, capping international students, policing conservative “feelings”—which Symone notes is both crazy and illegal.
  • "There is not a college campus I’ve been a fellow at…where the university is not thinking about how to ensure that the students on their campus that are conservative...are not adequately accommodated." (47:49, Sanders)
• She calls for universities to fight such directives in the courts: "The only way to potentially win is to fight. That's the only chance we have." (51:03, Sanders)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Republican Strategy:

  • "Russ Vogt has said from the beginning that his goal was to enact pain on the federal workforce and the administrative state." (11:32, Sanders)
  • “They're hostage-taking the American citizens...they are like, that is crazy messaging...” (15:19, Miller)

• On Democratic Messaging:

  • “I don't want to nitpick them like they're doing something... But to actually win this battle, you need a succinct message that is very clear...” (21:31, Miller)
  • “You have to get different voices for the medium and then say, this is your home base and hammer at home.” (18:04, Sanders)

• On Opposing ‘Punish-the-Red-States’ Thinking:

  • “The goal if Democrats get back in power is accountability...I don't believe...the goal should be to inflict pain on the people. That is, one, un-American, but two, again, as a person from a red state, do the black people in Nebraska deserve to be defunded because Republicans acted a fool?” (29:11, Sanders)

• On Trumpist Executive Tactics:

  • “...Trump is being more...responsive. To the winner go the spoils element of this.” (32:00, Miller)

• On Universities and Project 2025:

  • “Conservative students are not being ostracized...my experience has been that the administration actually tries to over-index on the conservative students.” (47:49, Sanders)
  • “The only way to potentially win is to fight. That's the only chance we have. So don't take it, folks.” (51:03, Sanders)

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Important Timestamps

• Democrats’ shutdown strategy & ACA priorities: 01:38–06:46
• Republican “enacting pain” agenda, Project 2025: 11:32–13:37
• Media landscape & messaging war: 15:36–23:45
• Internal Democratic strategy and candidate selection: 34:12–43:18
• Punitive governance debate (“should Dems punish red states?”): 28:10–31:39
• University crackdown and legal resistance: 46:33–51:03

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Tone & Atmosphere

The discussion is candid, occasionally profane, and rich with insider knowledge—reflecting both hosts’ experience in high-stakes politics. Tim and Symone are animated, empathetic, and regularly challenge each other’s arguments while sharing mutual frustration with the current moment. The episode is laced with humor (“I’ve got a bridge I wanna sell you in the middle of the Antarctic…” — 06:47, Sanders) and a sense of urgency about the state of American democracy.

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Bottom Line / Takeaway

This episode offers a detailed, no-nonsense look at how Democrats are approaching the government shutdown, the dangers of the Trumpist "enact pain" governance philosophy, and the continual struggle to win the messaging war in partisan America. Symone Sanders-Townsend’s practical, justice-oriented perspective anchors the conversation, reminding listeners that the stakes are high—and that Democrats have to fight harder, communicate better, and play the long game both in policy and politics.

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All timestamps in MM:SS format refer to the provided transcript.

Transcript

[Simone Sanders]

Foreign.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back my friend, the co host of the Weeknight on msnbc. She was a top spokesperson and communications director and strategist for Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris and I don't know, a million other people. It's Simone Sanders. How you doing, girl?

[Simone Sanders]

Greetings. I'm well, Simone Sanders Townsend. And my, my little. I don't even know what we're calling this, but my coiled situation are checking in.

[Tim Miller]

You're looking good, Simone Sanders Townsend. Excuse me for not giving you your full, you know, your full name.

[Simone Sanders]

I just want to be able to go home at night, that's all.

[Tim Miller]

I don't want to get in trouble with your man, you know, I'm just throwing, I'm just going to throw back to where we first met. We're going to talk about this at the end. I just want to shout out on October 11th, MSNBC is hosting MSNBC Live 20 in New York. Simone will tell you more about that at the end. But if you're interested in that, the Bulwark also has a show that night, October 11th, but we sold out. That's a smaller venue, you know, so we're more indie. Right. But if you can't make it to see us, you should go see Simone and some other people.

[Simone Sanders]

Come see us. We're at the Hammerstein Ball right now.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, man, it's gonna be good. October 11th. So check that out more at the end. We gotta talk shut down politics. So the government is shut down right now. You were agitating back in whatever it was, March, that the Dems do what they're doing right now and go to the mat on this. And so I'm wondering what you make of the strategy, what we've seen so far, you know, now that we're what, about a day and a half into this thing.

[Simone Sanders]

First of all, I think that it is refreshing, frankly, to see the Democratic elected officials on Capitol Hill coalescing around an issue, coalescing around healthcare and saying, we know what is about to happen to the American people in this country. So we are gonna use the tools that we have, the one tool, the one piece of leverage that we have as the minority party in this Congress. And that is they need our votes. We're not going to supply our votes unless we can do something for the health care of the American people. I think that's amazing. I think it makes sense and I think it's great. I was very frustrated back in March because The whole argument, which was crazy, was about, like, if we let them shut the government down, they're just going to fire people and run roughshod over. Congress kept the government open, and they were doing it anyway, so didn't seem like a good strategy on this one. I do think that Democrats are going to be able to exact some concessions from Republicans because that's the only way the government is going to get back open. I think that it is refreshing that we're, what, about two days in, as we're having this conversation that the Senate caucus has held for the most part. The last time, 10 Democrats voted with the Republicans in March to pass that spending bill, to pass the criminal. Four of those were folks in leadership, right? We have not had the four in leadership join the ranks of Captain Cortez, Mastow, Fetterman, and Angus King. So to me, that is important. I'm watching Jon Ossoff, okay? He's the most vulnerable Democrat in the United States Senate up for reelection next year, and he right now believes that this is a fight worth having. So fingers crossed, Tam, that these Democrats can pull it together.

[Tim Miller]

So I have a couple questions for you. What do you think is the end game here for the Democrats? What's the exit plan? I guess that's a main issue. I've got two issues, I guess, with the strategy. That's one of them. What do you think it is?

[Simone Sanders]

Okay, so one I have asked. I said, well, what's the off ramp? So, like, what is it gonna take for y' all to say, okay, we are pleased here? And they say, well, we want the subsidies that are gonna expire, the Affordable Care act subsidies, the things from the inflation Reduction Act. We want those permanent. And I'm like, okay, permanent for a year, permanent for two years. They were like, we will take some form of permanent. And then they want the Medicaid p. From the one big beautiful bill, or as the Democrats like to call it, the one big ugly bill. I just like to say the bill that was passed, they want those restored because they don't want people kicked off their Medicaid next year. I. I don't know if they're going to be able to get number two.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know if they're gonna be able to get number one.

[Simone Sanders]

Well, I think, number one, I think that they're able to get number one, to be honest. I mean, because people have had the help. Like, I do think that the argument about people's prices going up 300% when in an economy where they are already str stretched thin, especially when it comes to health care. I think that that is a very solid argument and you can get Republicans across the board who say, look, I don't care about Obamacare. I don't like the Affordable Care act, however, I cannot support raising prices of my constituents by 300%. I think that they could get that. But this Medicaid piece I think is just a little bit tougher. Even though you've got Republicans like Josh Hawley who, remember after that bill was passed, he himself introduced some legislation to undo what they did on the Medicaid pieces. I just think if they gave Democrats that they would be acknowledging the thing that they have never wanted to acknowledge and that their bill kicks people off Medicaid and cut services for all these people. And I don't think the Republican apparatus in Congress or the political apparatus is willing to do that.

[Tim Miller]

So let's say that the Republicans hold the line and decide they don't give a fuck. The people's health care prices are going up. And the Democrats say, okay, we see this as a winning issue for us. We're going to keep talking about this and focusing on this and if your healthcare premiums are going up, so we want you to know who's to blame. That's kind of irrational on both sides. And so then the question is, where does it end? And I just, I hearken back to, I guess I'll have to anonymize. I had a, I had a conversation with a Democratic senator a while back and they were like, you have no idea how, how weak kneed some of my colleagues are. And I, you know, to me, I just think it ends up in a place where, you know, six more, seven more. What does it need to be? Four more.

[Simone Sanders]

They had three. They need four.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, four more of these. More old school, you know, traditional. You know, I still think that I'm, I'm dealing with Tip o' Neill and Ronnie Reagan. Democrats, like four more of them fold on this. And then you know what? You didn't have a lot to show for it. I guess you drew attention to the health care issue would be the argument.

[Simone Sanders]

Drew attention to the health care issue. That is still an issue, frankly, if they do not get what they are asking for in terms of the, like, people's premiums are gonna go up 300 plus percent, people are going to be kicked off their healthcare, people are gonna die. Like that's just the reality here. People are going to die. So look, I think if the scenario that you are laying out happens which is very plausible because you're right, Folks are weak. Need Catherine Cortez Masto, you know, respect the lady very much. She was the most vulnerable Democrat in the last cycle. She won reelection. Damn.

[Tim Miller]

She's got six years.

[Simone Sanders]

The girl got six years. Hold your dang gone vote. But she proactively has been. Again, it's her, Angus King and John Fetterman. So I think if somebody like Catherine Cortez Mastow, who has nothing to lose, is unwilling to go out on a limb on this one, I can foresee that's my question is, well, how long? I'm watching to see how long Senate Democrats hold. And if they can pick off four more, and if in fact they do, then I think that there are questions to be had to the Democratic senators. There are questions to be had about Senate leadership on the Democratic side. But when it comes to the House, again, there are people that are like, oh, the Senate might be in play next year. Well, I got a bridge I wanna sell you in the middle of the Antarctic. Okay. And I want you. Really?

[Tim Miller]

You're that negative on it?

[Simone Sanders]

On the Senate? Yeah, because I'm realistic, okay? I'm realistic. Like, shh. Is there a universe where the Senate could potentially be in play? Maybe. But again, if we're talking in the scenario where Senate Democrats don't hold the line in the cave after a couple days or maybe a couple weeks, then that does not bolster the argument, frankly, to the American people about why these are the folks you should put back in charge of the United States Senate. But on the House side, I think that their strategy is very sound. First of all, it's good politics and it's good policy. Tim, what they are doing is good politics, but what they are also doing is good policy. It is right. Health care is not an ancillary issue for folks. And frankly, the clarity that I heard Hakeem Jeffries espouse during his weekly press conference this week where he said, they keep saying they're going to negotiate with us later. Why should we trust these people? Thank you, Leader Jeffries. I've been waiting on y' all to. Why should y' all trust them? Because at every turn, they have demonstrated that they, Their Republican counterparts in Congress cannot be trusted, that they cannot be trusted to negotiate in good faith, to have good conversations. Which is why Jeffries and Schumer pressed for a meeting with Donald Trump directly and the people at the White House with the Senate, with the congressional leadership there, because that is where the ball game is. So, look, I'm Very heartened by what I'm seeing from House Democrats. Will they eventually get what they're asking for? We don't know. I will remind people, though, the last time the last shutdown really ended, it's because the airlines got involved. Airline executives was calling folks up. They were like, look, y' all gonna have to figure this out. We've let it go on long enough because when it starts affecting the businesses, the travel industry, the airlines people are not gonna stand for, you know, letting this back and forth go. I guess the last thing I'll note is the Republicans in Congress are not standing on like a good faith argument. Right. I could see if they were like, well, look, we had been negotiating with our Democratic counterparts and they're just trying to get us to acquiesce to all these things. And they had not been negotiating. They were very clear that they were not going to talk to them. And they're lying about health care. They're lying about what this is about. They're not coming at it from a good faith argument. And they're using the very real crisis that is a government shutdown, to fire people. What are we doing?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, let's talk about that. Them firing folks. I agree with you. The other thing, in addition to the fact that they're lying about what the Democrats are pushing for on health care and the fact that they didn't negotiate, the other thing is they haven't let any of these rules stop them so far from doing whatever they want. Right. And so like the idea that it's like, oh, you know, we needed, like we're doing this because the Democrats aren't giving us their votes. Like, what are you talking about? They did. They doged and they fired a bunch of people illegally as soon as they got in there. The, the president is doing unilateral tariffs and essentially unilateral sales taxes on the American people without going through Congress, even though Congress has the power of the purse. So, like, don't tell me that. Oh, you can't. You're only doing this because you don't have the extra four Democratic votes. That's just not how they've done business since they've been in there. But on these firings, because substantively, this really matters. We've got Russ vote. They said that they're cutting the, quote, what they call the Green New scam projects. There was no green. The Green New Deal never actually passed. So I don't even know what they're playing on here. But whatever, they're cutting some of these Environmental projects. They're cutting some transportation projects in blue states. My colleague Jonathan Cohen wrote a great article about this about David Langlais and the Ironworkers Local 37. He's a wind turbine guy and he's like, his project is cut. And these are like, these are supposedly the Trump coalition, blue collar, working class manufacturing guys. They're being hurt by this. Right? So it's not just like, you know, the liberal HR person at the EPA or whatever in D.C. that's being hurt. Like, everybody's being hurt. When you cut these projects, you cut people that are working on the projects. That's a lot of working class folks. To me, this strategy feels like they're overplaying their hand on this.

[Simone Sanders]

No, I think you're right. I do think they're overplaying their hand. But I would also. I mean, we have to understand that they are also being wildly consistent. Russ Vogt has said from the beginning that his goal was to enact pain on the federal workforce and the administrative state, that they wanted to dismantle it. They literally wrote it down in Project 2025. And you got the president, like, right before we're having this conversation today, he's posted on his social media site, talk about Russ vogt of Project 2025 fame and is essentially bragging about what his OMB director is doing and saying, look, if Democrats don't get it together, he's just going to keep doing this one. Who is in charge of the government? Is it Russ Vote? Is it the president? Is it Stephen Miller? Is there a power sharing agreement that the American people don't know about over here? Why is the president acting like he's a bystander in this situation? So that's first. But secondly, in terms of these firings, I do think that narrative is a very powerful thing here. Data has never been the thing that moves people. It's stories that do. And you can bet, just like the article you're talking about about the iron workers and like the folks that are talking about how, you know, this was a project, it was creating jobs and we've lost it. Like, we don't understand the rationale here, there are going to be many more stories like that. People are going to need to tell those stories loudly in many different venues. Because that is the thing that is going to move the needle here for folks just like the farmers. You know, we talk about the tariffs. Last time the farmers were all like, look, the president's doing what he needs to do. We're with them. We're gonna stand up to China as.

[Tim Miller]

Long as we get our bailout.

[Simone Sanders]

As long as we get our bailout. And they got it this time. The soybean farmers are like, hold up. Okay. But the soybean farmers are pissed off. The soybean farmers are pissed, okay? Because China hasn't purchased not one American soybean ever since these tariffs popped off. They done got their soybeans from elsewhere, honey. The soybean farmers in Nebraska, where I'm from, they're like, what is good? Minnesota? They're ready to knock a few buck for lack of a better term. So I just, this is, this is not a clear cut strategy.

[Tim Miller]

All right, everybody. We are sold out of tickets to all of our shows on the fall Tour except for October 8th in Washington, D.C. and was on a call yesterday planning out what we've got in store for you. It's going to be fun. Obviously JVL will be there, so there'll be elements of darkness. But we're also bringing in Sarah McBride for a conversation with Sarah Longwell that I'm super excited for. Maybe we might get Will Sommer up to talk about some of the crazy shit that's happening on the MAGA ride. I've got some other plans in store for you so it's not too late. Get your tickets now. Washington, D.C. october 8th. Go to the bulwark.com events. The bulwark.com events. I hope to see you all there. It's at Lincoln Theater. Awesome venue. Appreciate them for hosting us. And so I hope to see you all in Washington October 8th. I want to read this to you. This is the strangest thing about the Republican messaging I want to give. I have one other nitpick about the Democrats messaging I want to get to in a second, but the Republicans don't because they're so crazy. A lot of times people don't even call them on just the level of depravity and insanity that's coming from the White House. This is the White House press secretary. Today on Fox, she says if the Democrats don't want further harm on their constituents, open the government. She talks about that in the context of Russ vote being unleashed on federal agencies that may need to be halted or permanently cut. So she's saying like we are harming people. We are in charge. We are harming people. And if the Democrats don't want us to harm people, then they need to give in. Right? And they're hostage taking the American citizens and they're saying that they are like, that is crazy messaging, Tim.

[Simone Sanders]

They think that they are going to get the benefit of the doubt. They think that the broad swath of the American people are not actually gonna understand what is going on here. That is the premise of this messaging. This is what happens when you got nine comms professionals out here trying to put together the messaging.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, well, they have a good reason for this. Actually. Let me. Cuz this goes to. On both sides. They have good reason to think that people won't buy it. Why I was on a plane to New York. I'm about to tell you, I was on a plane to New York. And I do the thing that I do. I don't, I don't subject my family to Fox News. I think that's just fair. You know, I just don't want it to be on the TV at my house. So when I'm traveling, I watch it, just go see what's happening. Spent an hour with Fox News on the plane yesterday and it's like a totally different universe. Right? I mean like they, I mean we can get into a bunch of other stuff and they're mad about Bad Bunny.

[Simone Sanders]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Multiple segments about how great Erica Kirk is and tpusa and like that. Like the just hagiography of Charlie Kirk. Multiple segments about that. But on the shutdown stuff like the only dissenting voice is Rand Paul. Like it's just Republicans talking about how this is all the Democrats, all this, all the Democrats fault. We can't do anything without them. We're trying to do what's best. They only care about the crazy left. They play Elon Omar, they find the craziest thing that they can hear and play a clip of that. There's no dissenting voice. There's nobody on the network saying what you're saying that no, your healthcare premiums are going up. The Democrats are doing this.

[Simone Sanders]

Then that's the problem. I mean, Jessica Tarlov, bless her heart, she was on the five making the same case the other day and the panel like essentially tried to shout her down and she's like, I'm just telling y' all the facts. So I will say that I'm heartened by what I've seen from the Democrats. But the other thing is you gotta be everywhere all at once, consistently. That takes somebody standing up. Like a booking, like a coordinated booking apparatus. Now I'm getting technical from my like campaign days.

[Tim Miller]

Can somebody do that? So let's, before we, before we get into the booking side of it, this is what I was thinking about as I was sitting there suffering through Fox News on the Southwest Airlines flight yesterday, just trying to survive. I was like, I want to ask Simone who could go onto this show.

[Simone Sanders]

Jared Moskowitz.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Jared Moskowitz. Pretty good. But he's like trolling half the time, which is good. We appreciate a troll. We love it. The Democrats could use a troll. We love that. We love that about Jared Moskowitz. But, like, who could go out there and just succinctly make the point about what the Democrats rationale is for this shutdown?

[Simone Sanders]

Pete Buttigieg.

[Tim Miller]

He's not even. He doesn't have a job. He's just a dad.

[Simone Sanders]

He doesn't have a job.

[Tim Miller]

He's just a guy with a dad. So sure, Pete should go on more.

[Simone Sanders]

That means he's available.

[Tim Miller]

That's true. He's available.

[Simone Sanders]

He's available to be built.

[Tim Miller]

It's concerning, though, that you didn't say, Hakeem Jeffries, that we don't. That there's not a point person in Congress that you're like, you know, this person has done a really great job.

[Simone Sanders]

I think Pete Aguilar is great on it.

[Tim Miller]

I'd like to see Pete Aguilar.

[Simone Sanders]

I think Pete Aguilar would be great. I think Cathyn Clark has been really great on some of these pieces. I just. The reason I say not Leader Jeffries on this is just because I think you gotta send out. If it were me. If it were, you know, if I was the senior advisor for the House Democratic Caucus, which I am not, baby, I have a job. But if I was a senior comms advisor. Well, you don't in this economy honestly talk about it, Tim. I would say, okay. I would try to identify, like, my best messengers for the various mediums. Right. Like, I actually think Jasmine Crockett has been. We had her on our show the other day. She has been great on this. I wouldn't put her on Fox News. Greg Cassar was really great on the shutdown and what they were doing. I wouldn't put him on Fox News, per se. Brendan Boyle, very good. But in person. So I would send him up there with Bret Baer. Right. He's the ranking member. He could talk about the things. Like, I just think you have to get different voices for the medium and then say, this is your home base and hammer at home. There are folks that can do it. But the problem here is the way it works in these. You know, I never actually worked on the Hill in Congress. I was always Hill adjacent. I did campaigns and then obviously I worked in the White House, so on and so forth.

[Tim Miller]

Same cuz we're not dweebs.

[Simone Sanders]

That's why, you know, you know, the Hill people are gonna hate us after this. But whatever.

[Tim Miller]

Real ones were out on the campaign trail, you know.

[Simone Sanders]

Correct. We were out there going to the Hawkins in the trenches. But you know, Tim, it's kind of crazy when you realize how the Hill people operate. It is not a centralized situation like it is in a campaign apparatus or whatnot. There's not somebody who's on staff regularly whose job is to track like what are the people's bookings, where are we from cable to podcasts to radio to like what is the social. There's not a caucus wide on the Republican side or the Democratic side where that is a role that somebody has. Like this is a mini campaign essentially like Democrats and frankly, Republicans are running a mini campaign campaign around the shutdown. And it is a messaging war at this point. And you have to have a very strong campaign apparatus so you can aggressively get out there and win the messaging war. And that requires some logistical backing. I mean, just a very, very simple example. The morning after the shutdown, the Vice President was out and about making the rounds. The speaker of the House was out and about the head of the Republican conference, Lisa McClain. They were out everywhere. Hell, they was on MSNBC. Lisa McClain was on morning Joe.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[Simone Sanders]

And the Democratic leadership and the top voices that the Democratic side of the aisle have, they weren't out that morning. Hakeem Jeffrey's press conference wasn't until 2 and then after 2 o' clock they went out full force. But the entire morning, the framing, you know, JD Vance and the speaker were just out there spouting their stuff. If it were me, we'd have had our prescribers at nine.

[Tim Miller]

That's a technical complaint. But it is related to my point. It does matter. It's related to my point, which is like, okay, I forget who I was. I was, I was, you know, you know how it is. Nicole or Simone. It's. I see I'm calling you the wrong name. It's a whirlwind. I'm on all these shows. I forget which fucking show I was on when I was talking about this. But whoever I was on with said something about like this is a PR battle. Right. Like this is not real. I mean like it's a policy battle to the stuff that you laid out correctly about health care. But like for the Democrats to actually win a win is to make sure the American people know.

[Simone Sanders]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

That it's the Republicans that are the Ones that are to blame for their increased health care premiums. That's the fight they've picked. Could have picked maybe tariffs or something else. They've picked the healthcare premium fight. So now it's a PR battle. And that is where I'm just like, okay, so the Democrats did a live stream. That's good. I don't, I don't want to nitpick them like they're doing something. Doing something's better than nothing. Like they're out there. They're, you know, in their kind of more left and center left kind of echo chambers. Right. But like to actually win this battle, you need a succinct message that is very clear that makes the other side the bad guy and that you can take into hostile territory. And to your point, say what you want about fucking J.D. vance. And I've said plenty of nasty shit about J.D. vance and I will continue to.

[Simone Sanders]

But J.D.

[Tim Miller]

Vance will goes on to the Sunday shows, it goes on to CNN. He won't come onto my show. You're always welcome, Mr. Vice President.

[Simone Sanders]

He's welcome on the weeknight as well. We have yet to see.

[Tim Miller]

He's also on the weekend, so there's certain places he won't go. But he's out there making the point he's lying. He's lying, but just not grading on the merits of the argument, just saying he has an argument. It's clear. It's about the illegal immigrants. Now it's the Democrats fault that they want to fund illegal immigrants. He's willing to say it in any venue and that is going to win this battle. If the Democrats don't have a messenger and a message that they can take into Fox and elsewhere, I guess I.

[Simone Sanders]

Would argue they do have a message. Their mess. I heard it all day yesterday after 2pm and the message is that healthcare is not. Healthcare is not a narrow. They have to wash their hair. It's not a narrow.

[Tim Miller]

They had to get ready to get the makeup done after 2pm Maybe if.

[Simone Sanders]

It were me, we'd have been up and out that morning. Okay, I know it was a long night, but we gotta, gotta Earl the bird gets the worm. They do have a message and their message is that healthcare is not a side issue. And frankly, we're happy to negotiate with anyone. This is what they should be saying. They're happy to negotiate with anyone. But these folks have not wanted to talk to them. So like, come talk, Mike Johnson, come talk. But they have to take the message many places, consistently everywhere. I mean, I do think it's breaking through. I've been seeing folks, Madeline Stansberry. She did, she did a. Melanie, Pardon me, Madeline. I'm looking at Madeline Dean over here.

[Tim Miller]

She's good. Get her out more.

[Simone Sanders]

She's excellent. She had a video I saw the other day where she was like getting out of her car, just like had her phone. She's getting out of her car, like, I would be going to vote, but da, da, da. Like I, I thought, I've seen a lot of those as of late. Those are great. And I think that they matter because they break through for the people that are not watching the news. But for the people that are watching the news that are watching Fox, you gotta go there too. But you also gotta get on your own socials and be consistent and organic and just answer people's questions. I think they're doing that. But I disagree with you when I'm, when you say that like they're gonna, that the Republican argument is one, it's simple, but it'll win. It is a lie. And every time they say it, anybody with just an ounce of integrity has to say that's not true. And more and more we're starting to hear people do it. It happened to Donald Trump in the Oval Office the other day. He said his piece and I believe a really great reporter from TBS News, Weijia, she says undocumented people do not receive benefits. It is not allowed. So what are you talking about? That is a very generous framing. Okay, I think we have to get to the place of you all keep saying something that is literally not true. Do you expect the American people to just believe what you say? Like, we gotta get there. Even George Stephanopoulos pushed back on the speaker. George Stephanopoulos was like Speaker Johnson, da, da da, da, da, da, da. And you know what Speaker Johnson said? Well, that is incredulous. And George is like, well, no, I mean, like they're not saying what you're saying they're saying, so help me understand. Kaitlan Collins had this speaker on pushback. I think when the Republican elected officials are going out there, if they are lying now in some instances on other things, they have an argument that is not an outright lie. Right. That like there's some nuance there and one could argue some of what they said makes sense. This is not that on this, you've got Democrats saying your premiums are going to go up if we don't do something. And by the way, we're also going to try to get all these people that are going to lose their health Insurance, not to lose their health insurance by asking them to roll back the stuff that they did. And the Republicans are like, they want to get health care to undocumented people. Okay, please, please, please, let's go. Can we just come back to reality here? And that is, I think, what's frustrating for me as a person that does this every single day. I'm just like, well, how much longer are we just gonna let the lies stand before somebody was like, this is a lie.

[Tim Miller]

I'm with you on that part. It's a lie. They're full of shit. They're lying all the time. I guess my thing is you gotta fight. You gotta fight on the field with the opponent you got, and the opponent they got is opponent that is, well, as they lie. But they lie everywhere, and they lie brazenly, and they lie a lot. They lie loudly, and they don't give a fuck. They're shameless about it. I'm not saying the Democrats need to be shameless about lying, but I'm saying that they need to have a message that they can take, you know, to people that are, like, outside the little social media bubble. That's. That's all I'm saying.

[Simone Sanders]

I mean, I think you're right. And I also. I mean, we just want to be frank. You know, working at the White House is amazing because the White House is the biggest bully pulpit in America. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

They got a huge advantage with that.

[Simone Sanders]

Correct. And so you are. The Democratic elected officials are up against the fact that, yeah, if the vice president wants to call up, you know, any cable news outlet or any local, like, they're going to take him. Because, of course we want the vice president. Right. Like, the president wants to call oppressor and then talk for 45 minutes about the health care situation and tell the lie about undocumented people. He's the president of the United States. And so. But that is the. You know, elections have consequences. That is the situation they find themselves in. So what are y' all gonna do? Kamala Harris on a book tour. Hello. Maybe y' all need to ask that lady to talk about the situation.

[Tim Miller]

Go on Fox. So I'm saying, Democrats, I know some of you are listening. Go on Fox. Do it. You know, make your message. Show me, show me. I'll clip it. I'll push it around. One other thing on the actual policy, on the elections have consequences. Back to vote. One thing that they're doing that they're unabashed about is we're like, we're just going to target blue states Obviously, we're going to send troops into blue cities, but now we're just going to say we're going to cut projects. We are going to cancel projects that are happening in blue states. We're going to cancel projects that have whatever progressive goals behind them, you know, via environmental or otherwise. We're going to cancel transportation infrastructure projects in New York. Like Russ Vought said, it's so crazy.

[Simone Sanders]

When the hurricane comes. I don't think people think of the hurricanes as woke yet. They want the. You know what I'm saying?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's crazy they're doing that. But here's my question for you. Like, it's the opposite of Biden did. The Biden idea was, oh, we're going to build a lot of infrastructure, we're going to build a lot of plants, we're going to build chips plants, we're going to do infrastructure in red states and maybe that'll help the Democrats. That obviously didn't work. Democrats didn't gain any ground in those places. I was on Jon Stewart's weekly podcast yesterday, and Jon Stewart is. Was making the argument and people can listen to the whole thing. So I'm just going to paraphrase him to hear exactly what he was saying. But he was basically saying if the Democrats get power again, they need to govern like this. Like this is the new reality. Democrats should punish red states, target red states, use. I mean, the blue states is where a lot of the tax money's coming from. They're giver states, red states are taker states. And it's time for the Democrats to play hardball when it comes to actual policy, if they ever get in power again. And the governors of those states should do so. Now. That made me a little uncomfortable. People can listen to our exchange.

[Simone Sanders]

Yes, it makes me very uncomfortable.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So I'm just wondering what you thought about that.

[Simone Sanders]

I disagree with that. I think that there are a lot of lessons from the second Trump administration in this current iteration of the Republican Congress. One of the lessons that I've taken away is that the next time I hear Democratic elected officials say, oh, well, you know, there's just some things we can't do. No, no, you can do them. You can do them. And there's actually very, very little pushback that you will get if you just push the good thing through, like you could have done the build back better. You could implement the care pieces. You can pass an executive order, like, I think the short term, like good goals. Whether whether or not it is lasting is another question. But like do the thing now, but this thing about. And I'm gonna go and listen to the conversation. But like the targeting the red states, I like to always remind people, I grew up in north Omaha, Nebraska. My mother still lives there, one of my brothers and my sisters still live there as a community that I am from. Yes, there are black people in Nebraska and Nebraska is a red state.

[Tim Miller]

Omaha.

[Simone Sanders]

Shout out to Omaha. Shout out to the blue dot. Okay, I hate the frame red states, blue states because it totally discounts the people that live in those communities across the country. Heck, at one point, Michigan was a red state. Hell, it could go right again if people ain't careful. I think this idea that the goal should be to enact pain on the people is wrong. I think the goal if Democrats get back in power is accountability. Accountability for the businesses, the individuals and the institutions and the people and organizations that thought that they could get away with going along with Donald Trump and the Republicans illegal power grabs. So the businesses include like any of these people that cut deals with the Trump administration. If the Democrats take back the House, I think that those people should expect more than just a strongly worded letter. They should expect a freaking investigation to be hauled in front of Congress with the cameras out like the Republicans did the leaders of Columbia and Penn and so on and so forth. That's what these businesses should have to do. For these lawyers that went along with the get along and did these illegal things, I think that they should expect to be hauled before Congress and then find some way to charge these people if they committed a crime. That's what needs to happen. But I don't believe in another. If Democrats ever get power back, that the goal should be to inflict pain on the people. That is one un American, but two again, as a person from a red state, do the black people in Nebraska deserve to be defunded because Republicans acted a fool? That's what you basically saying to me folks out there with that argument. And I just, I can't get down with that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, people should listen to the whole thing, I guess. I think John would frame it as he was saying, no, we should actually reward, you know, whatever. Take the money away from the stupid ICE shed and use executive orders to, you know, fund, you know, whatever like.

[Simone Sanders]

Agreed. I think that the money. I think that the money from ICE should go away.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Simone Sanders]

Why does ICE need all the money?

[Tim Miller]

Right. And people listen to the whole thing. I mean, I think that it's kind of something we're still kicking around. There is an element of punishment to It. But I think the idea is that. Is that Trump is being more. For all of his craziness. And I played the clip earlier about how they're like, fuck, we'll punish people if the Democrats don't do this. We don't care. There's, like, a responsiveness to it that comes from the executive order policy that's like, okay, you voted for me. Here's my response. Like, I'm gonna do an executive order, and we're gonna bail out the farmers, and we're gonna stop funding New York City subways, and we're gonna give this to you. And, like, there's a little bit of a. To the winner go the spoils element of this.

[Simone Sanders]

I believe that those things are fine. I mean, look, I worked for Joe Biden. He did not believe in executive orders. Okay? He didn't. He came from Congress and believes that one should not be governing by executive order. That in America, you have to work with the other side, get legislation passed, and that's how you get things done. Okay, well, I think the next time there's a Democratic president, if there is a Democratic president, the next time. Executive orders. I'm not saying don't try to get things through Congress. Legislation is very important because it is last. But I don't think there's anything wrong with an executive order. Okay? My first president I could vote for was for Barack Obama, baby. And he signed a lot of executive orders, much to the chagrin of a lot of folks in Congress and some of the people that worked for him. But.

[Tim Miller]

And me, the executive order and you. Yes, but the executive orders, you and John ended up aligned on that one. So you're on my side on one, his side on the other. That's okay. Two other things you just mentioned I wanted to get to before I let you go. One is the universities, but first, so let's just talk about that red state Senate stuff you've mentioned a couple times. You're from Nebraska. Dan Osborne's running there. It's a different kind of model. He's independent running, but we had him on the show. And obviously he's got a lot of progressive views on economic issues in particular. That's one model. He ran way ahead of Kamala Harris last time. Lost. But there's maybe something there. There's just a lot of conversation that's been happening out there over the last couple of weeks, which I think is good that this is finally happening on the Democratic side, where it's like, okay, what exactly do we need to do to Win in some of these states. Right. Like, if the Democrats ever want to have more than 52 senators again, they need to have a senator from Nebraska. It wasn't that long ago they had a senator from Nebraska.

[Simone Sanders]

It's not Ben Nelson.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's not. I mean, you know, he didn't vote the way everybody liked all the time, but it was certainly, it was certainly better than having him in there than, you know, having the Rick, Pete Ricketts, whoever's doing Trump lick spittle stuff that they got in there now. And so, you know, that's, that's one side there was. You know, obviously there's been kind of back and forth about Ezra Klein saying that maybe going more.

[Simone Sanders]

You don't want to have me on the Ezra Khan tip, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I'm just saying there's a lot of. Some of your old Bernie pals, like, the only path is to do Bernie style candidates. Like, I'm open to any but like, but people got to talk. I didn't love when you earlier, you're like, well, it's, it's, you know, I'll sell you a bridge in Alaska, in Antarctica, before the Democrats win the Senate. It's like, shouldn't they try to win the Senate? Shouldn't there be a plan? Shouldn't they, they try new things?

[Simone Sanders]

I think they are trying, but like, there's a difference between trying and then, like, if I think it's actually gonna happen this time. You know, the vice president used to always say, publicly you gotta see what can be unburdened by what has been. But privately she would always tell us, but you gotta know what it is. And I have a radical clarity of what it is. But that doesn't mean we don't try because we can't get to the progress if people are not trying. But I don't, I'm not about to lie to people and say, oh, Democrats are going. They have a real good shot of taking the Senate next year. No, they could potentially be on track to make a dent and if all the stars align.

[Tim Miller]

But what do they need to do? What do you think they need to do? What do you think? You're a red state girl. What do they need? I mean, Iowa's right there.

[Simone Sanders]

Democrats, I think that they're doing the right thing. Candidates election. This is not a, I'm just telling people, you know, Tim, unlike a presidential, these state based races, state legislative races are very different. And I think that people like Ezra Klein try to apply presidential metrics to Senate and House races and Even state legislatures and governors races. And it goes to show, I can tell the people that have actually worked on those kind of races won and lost them and the folks that haven't because you can't be applying presidential metrics to what the freak is going on in North Carolina. In North Carolina, Democrats have put up a candidate that makes sense. Right. Roy Cooper is a former governor. He's a former attorney general. He is somebody that folks have voted for before. He's somebody that knows the state. He makes sense. He is somebody that Democrats and Republicans and maybe some people that find themselves being independently minded could vote for. In Iowa, Joni Ernst being out. For whatever reason, she's out. We not gonna get into it, but there's a lot going on in there. For whatever reason, she's out.

[Tim Miller]

Well, don't just leave me hanging.

[Simone Sanders]

I'm just saying they said that those reports about the inappropriate relationships that they were threatening Joni Ernst with those. And like she didn't wanna weather a campaign with that on top of the Pete Hegsett stuff and everything else. She didn't think she could win a primary, let alone go and then go into a general bloodied if she did win politically bloodied. So that's why she bowed out. That's what my. That's what my Iowa streets tell me. Okay. My next door neighbors just talking about it. So now there is some movement in Iowa again. The farmers in Iowa, they are pissed off about what is happening and the kind of candidates that are being put forward.

[Tim Miller]

That's your. That is your neighbor. What is a cand. What does a candidate look like that can win Iowa? This is my problem. I think that a lot of times the Democrats are like, okay, well yeah, we need to win this and then we're going to put up. I kind of want to pick on Jamie Harrison. Good guy. I like Amy McGrath. She's on MSNBC with me sometime. Good person. But they were just generic Democrats.

[Simone Sanders]

Right? But I mean candidate elections can't. Correct. But candidates.

[Tim Miller]

What do you think could work in Iowa? Do you want a Dan Osborne type or a Joe Manchester?

[Simone Sanders]

Well, no, there are cooperative. There are three people right now running who could all potentially win the Senatecy. To be clear, in Iowa they all make sense. These are sons and daughters. Yes, I do think so. I think that they could wage very competitive campaigns. Rob sand, who is right now the only Democrat elected statewide in Iowa, he is running for higher office. He's saying he want to be the governor now. Now Rob sand is the only Democrat that people in Iowa have consistently voted for to be in statewide office. So he has a shot. Now. Do I think Democrats are gonna win the senate seat in Iowa this cycle? I don't think so, but I think that the numbers are gonna be a lot closer than they were in previous years. And that means the next Senate seat and the Senate seat, maybe two Senate seats from now we will see a Democratic senator from Iowa.

[Tim Miller]

But this, I hope we still have a country that same. Okay, same.

[Simone Sanders]

But you asked what year are we in?

[Tim Miller]

Well, 2030. 2032.

[Simone Sanders]

Tim, I think it's a valid concern, but there are some people that have to be thinking about, okay, how can we move the needle so that the next time, and I'll give a real example in Nebraska. Nebraska currently has a Republican in the 2nd congressional district. Don Bacon is the representative. Prior to Don Bacon, a man named Brad Ashford was the representative. He was a Democrat prior to Brad Ashford. Lee Terry represented that seat since like I had been alive and the prevailing thought was like, oh, Lee Terry's just always going to have this seat. Well, a cycle before Brad Ashford ran, a man named John Ewing, who was the Douglas county treasurer who now serves as the mayor of OMaha, Nebraska. The first African American mayor who unseat a two term Republican, by the way. He, when he was a county treasurer, ran for Congress against Lee Terry. He got close, but he lost. The next cycle, folks were like, john, you should think about running again. And it was John Clyburn that said, Jim Clyburn that said, actually you should not run again. You need to get your bearings and come back stronger and see if this is really what you want to do. Well, the next cycle, Brad Ashford ran. And because of the groundwork that John Ewing's campaign laid, Brad Ashford beat Lee Terry. He served in that seat. But it didn't happen overnight. Right? It was cycles and cycles of organizing and work of running a candidate that made sense for the district, that had ties to the community, that people could get behind that they knew they weren't gonna get everything. Brad Ashford didn't always vote. How Democrats, God rest his soul, how Democrats in the state always wanted him to vote, but he got him elected. And so that is the mentality that folks that do electoral politics, not Ezra Klein that writes about it, okay. But people that actually do electoral politics like yourself.

[Tim Miller]

I'm gonna defend Ezra's honor on this.

[Simone Sanders]

Go ahead.

[Tim Miller]

His idea might not be exactly right, but like it comes from a place of this is an emergency. Like I just, sometimes I feel like I'm taking crazy pills it's like, what is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. The Democrats have been running the same types of candidates for the Senate in these red states for, you know, a hundred years now. And they keep, you know, they keep losing season and no progress has been made. So this is why I'm like, when the populist lefty people get mad at me and they're like, oh, Tim, you just want to moderate like you. I'm like, no, try it. I'm okay, try. Try your strategy. That's fine with me. I'm down with Graham Platner, oyster farmer guy running in fucking Iowa. It wouldn't be an oyster farmer, you know, soybean farmer or whatever. But like, I'm down with that. But, like, let's try something. And I think that the point that Ezra's making is like, the Democrats are never gonna have power in the Senate again ever, if they don't start trying to win in places like Ohio, Iowa, Texas, Florida that are all up this time.

[Simone Sanders]

Right. But then that means you have to make investments. And I think that there is a lot to. I mean, let's just be frank. If we. Again, I think that talking about it in broad strokes sounds lovely, but sure, Ezra is right. And on that. But you're not gonna win unless you try to win some of these seats. Okay, well, how do you try to win some of these seats? I go back to a couple cycles ago in North Carolina, specifically, Sherry Beasley, who was the Supreme Court, a Supreme Court justice in North Carolina. And that matters because in North Carolina's state Supreme Court justices are elected. She was elected to the state Supreme Court. She was the Democrats candidate. And you know what? Could not get time, energy, or real funds from the Democratic Senatorial Congressional. From the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee. Chuck Schumer was like, okay, Sherry Beasley, with some investment, with some support, could have won her race. She would have been the senator from North Carolina. Right. And so, yes, I agree. But when we drill down to.

[Tim Miller]

It was Ted Budd. I forget. Was that race against Tillis or Bud. Yes, I forget.

[Simone Sanders]

Yeah, but you have to drill down. And so what my frustration is people that have not you, because you like to give specifics. And you've worked in the places, so you understand how things work. And you're not trying to be pie in the sky. And when you don't know, you like, I don't know. But these other folks that have large microphones that people listen to are just out here spouting this bs that doesn't make any like, yes, sure, Democrats are never gonna have the Senate again if they don't win some seats in some formally red or red places or purple places. But how do you win those seats? Where is the onus on the Democratic leadership? Where's the onus on Chuck Schumer? Why has he never had the answer for why he didn't support Shari Beasley?

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that.

[Simone Sanders]

If we really wanna get gully on North Carolina, on South Carolina, people didn't wanna tell Jim Clyburn no.

[Tim Miller]

Yep.

[Simone Sanders]

It sounds very insidery and interpolitiky, but that's the reality of the situation. So if you wanna win, you the nature of electoral politics in all the places across this country, the infrastructure and what it takes to win, you just don't get to sit on your little podcast and write your little article and say, this is what Democrats need to do. Maybe they need to run pro life Democrats. Joe Biden was a pro life Democrat. He was the freaking President of the United States. He just didn't believe that because he's pro life, women shouldn't be able to get the health care they need. Shut the F up. That's how I feel.

[Tim Miller]

Ish. And Joe Biden didn't win any of those states.

[Simone Sanders]

He became the president. Hold on. He became the president?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but he only won 25 states, Simone. He only won 25 states. So if the Democrats won, all this is fine. It's fine. But if Democrats won, that's just the nature of the Senate. If they won all the states Joe Biden won, they have 50 senators.

[Simone Sanders]

If the argument is we need more pro life. If the argument that some people have made, Ezra Klein being one of them, and I would also near tandem plus it and was like, yeah, I think this is right. We need to open up the aperture for more pro life Democrats. Democrats. It's like, well, hold on, let's back up. What are we saying? Because there are pro life Democrats in the coalition where the, where the line that people have is. Are you saying that what somebody personally believes can color the kind of policy that they and the access to health care that women in this country have. There are real ramifications for what people are talking about. And if we need more pro life Democrats, Joe Biden was a pro life Democrat. So, like, what are people saying? Like, I am frustrated because there is a lack of intellectual depth sometimes to the arguments that folks are talking about when we talk about the electoral situation. Because for somebody like me, a black one in America, it has been an emergency for a while now.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I hear that. No doubt. It's been an emergency for a while now.

[Simone Sanders]

Tim's like, I can't argue with black women in the.

[Tim Miller]

I just keep feeling like, okay, let's act like it, let's act like it. And I mean, I hear you on the podcasters, but I just. This is my message for the strategists, too. That's why I'm picking on them. Strategists are good at winning at some states, but, like, I think there's a lot. There's a little bit of a lack of creative thinking. It's just like we're going to go with the obvious candidate in a lot of these places. And I don't know if we're in a time we're looking for the obvious candidate. And I'm putting abortion separate from that.

[Simone Sanders]

I mean, I agree with you, but I think that there is, again, candidate selection matters. But when you have the apparatus, like, let's just be very clear, if you are a Democrat running for Senate specifically, you need the support of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. You do. And Chuck Schumer is deciding really, like, in concert with.

[Tim Miller]

I don't want Chuck Schumer kind of involved actually, at all.

[Simone Sanders]

People have to talk about that, though.

[Tim Miller]

Okay?

[Simone Sanders]

He didn't support Sherry Beasley, and maybe if he did, Democrats would have another seat in the United States Senate. But that is the reality of what we are talking about. There are specifics here. There are mechanics and logistics and like, internal workings that go to how these candidates get picked. So if folks don't like how the candidates are being picked, we gotta call out the structural infrastructure barriers to the kind of people that are getting elevated.

[Tim Miller]

All right, before I lose you, you mentioned the universities. We have to mention this because it's so fucking insane. Right before we go on New York Times story, Nine Universities. The Trump administration is shaking them down. Linda McMahon, the former fake wrestling executive, is shaking down the best universities in the country, and she's dictating to them what they need to be doing. That's where we're at in this country right now. I just wanted to read you a little what the deal is that they're pushing. Deal? Quote, unquote. The compact. They call it a compact, actually. Excuse me, what's a more fancy term? The compact would require colleges to freeze tuition for five years. Okay, that's all right. Cap. The enrollment of international students commit to strict definitions of gender, and they would also be required to change their governance structures. To prohibit anything that would, and I'm going to quote this, anything that would punish, belittle or spark violence against conservative ideas. Belittle. These fucking little babies. They want it to be put into the law that universities don't get life saving research grants. If there is anything that happens on campus that belittles the feelings of the conservative snowflakes, it is mind boggling that that is what they're doing. It is fucking so outrageous anyway. You just get the floor.

[Simone Sanders]

I agree, it's very crazy. It's also illegal. I think first and foremost it's illegal. And so all of these that are being threatened with this, they should sue. And if passed is prologue, they will be rewarded by the courts because it is brazenly illegal what the government is doing. I at one point was a professional fellow. You know, I've done the Harvard Institute of Politics program. I was a fellow there. I was a fellow at Georgetown last semester. I was a fellow at usc. Like I'm a queen fellow, you know, professional fellow. There has not been a, and I used to do a lot of speaking on college campuses. There is not a college campus I've been a fellow at that. I've spoken at university presidents that I have in my previous life consulted with and consulted for done work for where the university is not thinking about how to ensure that the students on their campus that are conservative, that have a more conservative leaning and bent ideological bent, that they are not adequately accommodated. Matter of fact, my experience has been that the administration's, these administrative bodies of these various schools, they actually try to over index on the conservative students. They bend over backwards. And so the idea that on our college campuses across this country, our institutions of higher learning, that conservative students are being ostracized in the classrooms and by the mechanics of the administration of these various entities is laughable. It is absolutely laughable because it's not happening. But the narrative, the narrative narrative is a very powerful thing as we said earlier. And I just think that it is, it is easy to say that in the age of like cancel culture and like asking people to use different words, so on and so forth, that people who maybe have a quote unquote contrarian view, but nowadays I guess the contrarian view is that slavery wasn't all bad, which in my opinion, I just, I'm not with it. But yes, I'm supposed to make space for that, that the contrarian views are under attack. And it's like that's not happening. And so because it's not happening, these administrations, these schools all across the country, they have to stand up and fight back against this administration in the courts because the courts will be on their side. And I point you to the president of, what is it, George Mason, who is like, I'm not, not taking it. No, no, no. I'm gonna take you to court. No, no, no, no, no. I point you to the other schools that have decided to fight the only way, the only way to win against this administration, the only way to potentially safeguard the protections for the people that you serve, whether you're elected official or the students and the parents that you serve. If you are institution of higher learning, an organization or a law firm, the clients that you have, the people that work for you, the only way to protect your interests is to push back. Because this administration, this president, his greatest superpower is actually exhaustion. And the idea that because so much is coming at you that you will just get tired and roll over, that you anticipate what the fight requires and decide not to do it. The only way to potentially win is to fight. That's the only chance we have. So don't take it, folks.

[Tim Miller]

All right, we're doing a home and home. I'm on the weeknight tonight so people can check me out. MSNBC, 7pm Eastern. I can check Simone there every night. October 11th, we said it. You go to msnbc.com live25. They got like a dozen MSNBC hosts. It's the Hammerstein Ballroom. It's going to be fun.

[Simone Sanders]

It's going to be amazing.

[Tim Miller]

It's a weekend. So you can come to New York. Come to New York and just kind of hang out. I mean, looks like, I guess even if you have tickets to our event, looks like that's a day long thing that you guys are doing.

[Simone Sanders]

So you could do, you could do.

[Tim Miller]

Kind of a day, day, night, doubleheader kind of thing.

[Simone Sanders]

Correct? Go see the Bulwark in the evening, see MSNBC Ms. Live in the morning, throughout the afternoon. You might even want to stay until the evening and be a little late to the Bulwark. But that's just me. It'll be a great time. We've got everybody, the, as I like to say, the cats.

[Tim Miller]

Look at this. That evening session's over at 7:30. You could do both, baby. You could do both.

[Simone Sanders]

I'm trying to tell you.

[Tim Miller]

Get out here. Weekend in New York City. That'll be good. MSNBC.com live25 Go get there, get some tickets. Simone Sanders, I'll see you in a couple hours. All right, girl. Thank you for joining always hold space for you. I always make space for you. I love you on this podcast. All right, we'll see you soon, girl.

[Musical Guest]

Baby left in Omaha? She's got too much just going on? All these options forcing me to find myself? Why on earth would I ask you for any help? I was thinking wrong? Yeah, you're already gone, baby? I was thinking wrong? Yeah, already gone?

[Simone Sanders]

Oh.

[Musical Guest]

Who said it's forever? You've got to set your mind free? I don't have time for this weather? I let it pour over me? Cuz you're thinking wrong? Yeah, we're already gone, baby? Cause you're thinking wrong? Yeah, you're already gone?

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.