The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Tom Nichols: All The Circuit Breakers Are Gone

Date: October 3, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Tom Nichols

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tim Miller is joined by Tom Nichols, staff writer at The Atlantic and former Naval War College professor, for an in-depth discussion on the increasingly chaotic state of American governance under the Trump administration. The conversation highlights concerns over the militarization of domestic politics, the erosion of checks and balances ("circuit breakers") in government, loyalty purges, threats to civil liberties, and a disturbing new military engagement in Venezuela. Nichols brings historical perspective and critiques, often using sharp humor, while also reflecting on the broader implications for democracy, the military, and social cohesion.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pete Hegseth’s Speech to the Pentagon Leadership

Timestamps: 00:31–04:13

• Context: Pete Hegseth, Trump’s Secretary of Defense, delivered a tough-talking, performative speech to top military brass, echoing old talk radio clichés.
• Nichols notes:
  • Hegseth repeated a Rush Limbaugh talking point: "Kill people and break things."
  • The speech was patronizing, trivial, and "completely inappropriate" for a Secretary of Defense.
  • Critique: Hegseth focused on physical fitness and image rather than strategy, acquisition, or actual defense policy.
  • The attempt backfired, with military leaders left unimpressed and viewing Hegseth as clumsy and out of his depth.
  • Quote:
    • “He pulled all those people in to say, ‘I’m the boss and you will respect my authority.’ And I think that backfired. Eight hundred of those people looked and said, wow, this guy really is a clown.” — Tom Nichols (03:20)

Ripple Effects on Military Leadership (05:09–06:27)

• Retired General Mark Hertling argued the speech would undermine trust and morale, especially for minority soldiers.
• Nichols: Generals/officers’ main concern is the welfare of those they command. They now question whether the chain of command understands the gravity and responsibility inherent in leading the armed forces.

2. Trump’s “Enemy Within” Rhetoric & Domestic Militarization

Timestamps: 06:27–11:39

• Trump's Speech: Rhetoric about “enemies within” being more dangerous than foreign threats, justification for deploying National Guard/military to cities with little connection to actual crime rates.
• Nichols: The military resents being used for domestic political theater; “The military doesn’t want to be dragged into these domestic missions. They don’t like it. It’s not what they train for.”
• The main "enemies" for Trump are his critics, not threats to the nation.
• Highlight: The generals got “a full helping of undiluted Donald Trump.”
  • “For a lot of them, this was the first time they were really strapped down and forced to drink … the whole carton of cigarettes.” (10:09)
• The hosts note that this is evidence that inflation and “kitchen table” economic gripes were always bad-faith distractions; political spectacle has replaced real policy concern.

3. Loss of Dissent and Institutional “Circuit Breakers”

Timestamps: 12:40–16:20

• Contrast between Trump’s first term — where dissent from figures like Jim Mattis was visible — and the current state, with no pushback from those inside the administration.
• Nichols: The current leadership leaves officers without a “top cover”:
  • “They have no top cover now … that’s the bad part, that’s the bad day for democracy.” (15:10)
• Officers have to choose between following questionable orders or risking their careers, as institutional courage is no longer modeled at the highest levels.

4. The Nuclear Launch System & the Collapse of Safeguards

Timestamps: 16:20–19:47

• Nichols discusses the historic example of Air Force Major Harold Herring, who was dismissed for questioning how he could be sure a nuclear strike order had come from a sane President (during Watergate).
• Emphasizes: The system is built for instant, unquestioned presidential action — “the circuit breakers are gone.”
  • “That system is still in place today. It’s there to enable the President, not to slow him down.” — Tom Nichols (18:13)
• The NSC is a shell of itself, with unclear and unqualified leadership (Marco Rubio reference).

5. Venezuela “Regime Change” and Ad Hoc War Justifications

Timestamps: 19:48–24:26

• Critique of Marco Rubio’s push for regime change in Venezuela as a distraction and political posturing.
• Miller (and Nichols, self-described “non-isolationists”) call the Venezuela intervention “madness,” lacking any strategic justification.
• Administration has resorted to literal kinetic actions (blowing up boats) before justifying legally — calling drug traffickers “enemy combatants.”
• Nichols mocks:
  • “There is a military rationale for attacking Venezuela … it is the only front on which you can possibly stop another round of talking about the Epstein files.” (22:29)
• Legal rationale for recent strikes is “ridiculous,” and sidesteps Congress entirely.

6. Civil Liberties: ICE-Spotting Apps & Tech Capitulation

Timestamps: 28:53–34:27

• Apple removed apps used by immigrants/activists to spot ICE raids, after administration pressure.
• Nichols supports Miller’s libertarian take: citizens should be able to communicate, including about police/federal operations in their neighborhoods.
• Critiques Tim Cook and Jeff Bezos for capitulating to administration pressure (“serial caving”).
• Nichols:
  • “This isn’t Russia. It’s not North Korea. You are allowed to notice the movement of the law enforcement officers of your own city, state, and country.” (30:19)
• Double standard: COVID misinformation “free speech” takes were weaponized against Biden, but real First Amendment attacks now get no reaction from the “free speech” crowd.
  • “Anybody that got pissed about the Biden administration [regarding] Covid misinformation, who’s not shouting from the rooftops today, is a fucking hypocrite.” — Tim Miller (33:02)

7. Loyalty Purges at DOJ & FBI

Timestamps: 35:50–41:38

• Purges and forced resignations at DOJ — prosecutors removed based on online rumors, not performance (example: Michael P. Benari, key in prosecuting terrorist attacks, fired because of MAGA Internet speculation).
• At FBI, agents removed for minor “infractions” (such as displaying a pride flag on a desk — now deemed unacceptable “political signage”).
• Nichols:
  • “All of these people spend their day protecting their own positions and consolidating the president’s power… So who’s actually prosecuting crimes? Anybody?” (38:21)
• Hypocrisy: Pro-Trump political signage on government property is ignored, while rainbow flags get staff fired.
• Atmosphere is designed to chill dissent and promote absolute loyalty over competence.

8. Anti-Semitic Violence and Political Reactions

Timestamps: 43:04–51:46

• Discussion of a deadly terrorist attack outside a Manchester synagogue, and the political reactions that followed.
• Miller points out that politicians like Zoran Mamdani were condemned even for putting out proper, empathetic statements—showing the “no-win” nature of modern political polarization.
• Nichols: Our discourse now punishes any move toward empathy or correction, making it impossible to reward positive changes in behavior or rhetoric.
• Urges consistency: “If you want to send signals to your political leaders … when there’s good stuff, it’s okay to say it’s good stuff.” (50:29)

9. Farm Bailouts, Economic Policy, and Distraction

Timestamps: 54:14–55:35

• Predictable return to massive government bailouts for farmers due to self-inflicted tariff/wars — while “socialist” pilot programs in cities get outrage.
• Miller:
  • “A 5 grocery store pilot in New York City does seem a little bit less pernicious than … paying soybean farmers to not sell their soybeans with my tax dollars … or any of the other fucking MAGA communist shit he’s doing.” (53:29)
• Nichols: The right is more concerned with performative outrage than actual fiscal policy.

10. Closing: Culture, Old Man Gripes, and Humor

Timestamps: 55:51–58:23

• Nichols shares lighthearted personal updates (“my cat is now a teenager and she is hilarious”), TV recommendations ("Slow Horses," "Task"), and an "old man" gripe about mumbling in modern TV that requires closed captioning.
• Miller notes even Gen Z now watches with captions—maybe Nichols is “young at heart.”
• The show closes with chuckles, despite the dark political climate.

Notable Quotes

• On the collapse of institutional safeguards:
  • “The system is there to make sure the President can act alone and instantaneously, which should scare everybody.” — Tom Nichols (17:36)
• On double standards in tech and free speech:
  • “If you’re not upset about this … were you full of shit then or are you full of shit now?” — Tom Nichols (34:27)
• On the administration’s approach to loyalty:
  • “These people are not just being replaced with loyalists. They’re being replaced with people who are incompetent opportunists.” — Tom Nichols (37:53)
• On performative outrage and culture wars:
  • “To work at the FBI, you have to be a loyalist … Who’s doing FBI work while these guys are running around figuring out who’s got a flag on their desk?” — Tom Nichols (40:37)

Episode Flow & Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamps | |---------------------------------- |-------------| | Pete Hegseth & Pentagon Speech | 00:31–06:27 | | Trump’s Urban Militarization | 06:27–12:26 | | Loss of Institutional Dissent | 12:40–16:20 | | Nuclear Command Topic | 16:20–19:47 | | Venezuela/Military Escalation | 19:48–24:26 | | ICE Apps & Civil Liberties | 28:53–34:27 | | DOJ/FBI Loyalty Purges | 35:50–41:38 | | Antisemitic Attack; Public Discourse | 43:04–51:46 | | Farm Bailouts/Economic Distraction | 54:14–55:35 | | Pop Culture Wrap/Old Man Gripe | 55:51–58:23 |

Tone

• Candid, irreverent, at times darkly humorous
• Blunt assessment of real risks to democracy and norms
• Willingness to name hypocrisy, both left and right
• Some moments of banter and comic relief amid otherwise sobering analysis

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This installment of The Bulwark Podcast offers a sobering critique of America’s political institutions under stress, with insight and wit from Tim Miller and Tom Nichols. From feckless Pentagon posturing to authoritarian legal maneuvers, from tech giants caving to government pressure to the disintegration of prosecutorial independence, the conversation unpacks the many ways in which democracy’s “circuit breakers” are being bypassed or destroyed. It’s a must-listen for those concerned about the fragility of liberal democracy, with enough moments of levity to keep doom at bay.