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- [00:00]
A
How do you make an Airbnb a vrbo. Picture a vacation rental with a host. The host is dragging your family on a tour of the kitchen, the bathroom, the upstairs bathroom, the downstairs bedroom, and the TV room, which, surprise, is where you can watch tv. Now imagine there's no host giving you a tour because there's never any hosts at all, ever. Voila. You've got yourself a vrbo. Want a vacation that's completely and totally host free? Make it a vrbox.
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B
Ever wanted to stay on vacation longer? Us too. With VRBO's long stay discounts, you can stay longer and save more on select properties. Gotta love a win win Book the perfect summer getaway today with VRBO Private vacation rentals. Your future self will thank you later.
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C
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller, and boy, do we need this guest today. Because I just. I was so mad for Oasis that I felt like I needed to see him one more time. And so I flew to Chicago for the night. And so I'm not at 100% today. I'm just gonna be honest with everybody. I'm not at 100. But luckily we've recruited somebody who hopefully will carry me and who is a skilled podcaster who you enjoy. He's professor emeritus of the Naval War College, staff writer at the Atlantic. His books include the Death of Expertise. It's Tom Nichols. How do you say Tom Nichols in Russian?
- [01:29]
D
Well, you know, they would say Tom Nichols, but actually what they would call me is because my father's name was Nick. The respectful way to address me is Foma Nikolaevich.
- [01:39]
C
Fomo Nikolaevich. Well, Foma Nikolaikovich.
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D
Timofeye. Timofeyevich. So nice to see you.
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C
So nice to see you. We're all gonna be Russian eventually. Are you an Oasis man, Tom? You like a radio rock? You like little radio rocks?
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D
Dude, I'm 64 years old.
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C
They came too old for OAS.
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D
They came around when I was already starting to have to take, like, statins and stuff, so.
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C
Okay, well, you can still find new joys in old age, Tom. You don't only have to listen to music from this that came out when you were 17. You know, you can expand.
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D
I've heard that. I know. I've heard Wonderwall and all the greats, and I know who they are. I just find them to be a little on the light and fizzy side.
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C
They're fizzy and I was fizzy last night. So here we are.
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D
How were you? I think we have a newsletter.
- [02:28]
C
I'm A little fizzy. There were two newsletters yesterday that came out that were both pretty bleak. One by my colleague jvl, which we'll get to in a second. But you wrote comparing Donald Trump to Homelander. Yeah. Tell people who Homelander is.
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D
Well, first, I will never try to compete with JVL in bleakness. I mean, he is as negative as I can be. He is the prince of darkness, and.
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C
He is my spirit, and yesterday's was about as dark as it gets. So we'll get to that in a second.
- [02:57]
D
I mean, it was. You know, if I were more of a drinking man, I'd have been right there with you. Okay, so Homelander, for those of you that haven't watched the Amazon prime series, the Boys, which includes me, which. Which is based on a series of graphic novels that are graphic, and it's basically an alternate universe in which there are all kinds of these super metahumans who, it turns out. And I'll just ruin part of the show for you. Were all created by, you know, the Nazis, and whose formula is now in the hands of a corporation that literally creates superheroes. And they created this guy.
- [03:35]
C
So Stephen Miller is. Stephen Miller is one of the metahumans that was created by the Nazis then?
- [03:40]
D
No, I think in that show, he works at the Vought Corporation. He's not a meta. He's just one of the guys that gives the shots to other people. But the pride and joy of the Valk Corporation and its superhumans is this guy named Homelander. And he's obviously in the comics and in the show, he is obviously evil. Superman. Like, what if Superman were a stupid, vain psychopath? He can shoot lasers from his eyes, he's invulnerable, he can fly, all that stuff. And the backstory is he's basically created in a lab. He's raised without love. He is constantly hurting about the fact that he's never really known who his father was or had love. And he's this.
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C
I'm seeing the parallels now.
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D
Yeah, he's this neurotic big baby who also happens to be extremely powerful. And everybody around him always has to kind of kiss his ass and make sure that he doesn't, like, laser them into a pile of ashes. But one of Homelander's catchphrases, the thing he says repeatedly during the show is, I can do whatever I want. And when I was watching this just shit show of a Cabinet meeting the other day, and Trump finally said, I can do whatever I. I have the right to do whatever I want. I'm the President, United States. If I think I have to do it, I. And I said, man, this guy just is going full Homelander. And so I was stepping into my old neighborhood at the Daily, and I suggested, look, you know, why don't. Why don't we do a piece that I'll call President Homelander? And he is. He's Homelander. I mean, he's. The parallels are there. He's a bit. He's. He's a big man, baby. He's constantly. People around him are simpering, flunkies. Donald Trump is not a metahuman, but he does carry a little card in his pocket that could launch 1700 strategic nuclear weapons in the next 30 minutes anytime he wants.
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C
Do we know how does Homeland. Spoiler alert. But how does Homelander get defeated? Do you have any. Do you have any lessons?
- [05:38]
D
We don't know that yet. The next season of the Boys is until about a year from now. This is totally orthogonal to our discussion, Tim. I am tired of great series making me wait two years. When I was a boy, you kids. When I was a boy, the season ended in the spring. You had to watch reruns during the summer, and then in the fall, you got new episodes, and we liked it that way. But, yeah, so the President is just, you know, sounds just like him.
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C
I appreciate the parallel, because Trump definitely. I see where you're going with this. I'm wondering on kind of the alarm scale, you know, and this is related to what I've been calling kind of the dictator soft launch that he's been doing this week. You know, I have the right to do anything I want. I'm the president. And then he does the thing where he's like, people say they want a dictator, and I don't want to be a dictator. But people are saying, really? You're hearing a lot of people saying they want to be a dictator. Like, what. What do you think is happening there? Do you think this is. Well, I don't want to prejudice you. What do you think's happening with that?
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D
He wants to be a dictator. I mean, how many times does he have to say it? He's kind of the weeniest dictator there is because he never says, look, I want to be a dictator. He says, you know, some people are saying they might like one. As authoritarians go, that is pretty weird. You know, they usually say, I'm in charge. I speak for the nation. I am powerful. I am the mighty and powerful Oz. You know, the wizard doesn't, you know, come out and say, some people say that I am a powerful wizard. I have been called by some people. They think I'm mighty and powerful. He just, he wants to do it, but he doesn't, as usual. He doesn't want responsibility for it. This is, you saw that this week when tried to fire Susan Menarez, you know, the, the doctor at cdc. And he had somebody else that just couldn't pick up the phone and say, you're fired for all that bullshit on the Apprentice. He doesn't actually like doing that. He doesn't, he's, he's not good with that kind of confrontation. So, yes, I think he wants to be a dictator, but I think he wants someone else. He's not Napoleon seizing his own crown off the pillow. He's Napoleon saying, some people say I should pick up this crown and become emperor.
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C
It's insightful because I see it two ways. On the one hand, we are sort of saved by his cowardice at times and the tacoing and the fact that Fred didn't love him and that he doesn't really want to be seen as the worst person ever. He has a desire to be loved and he doesn't, you know, have the total sociopathy that you see from other dictators, his megalomania in a different way. But on the other hand, it worries me a little bit because it gives people, it's part of the reason why people from within his tent and other and CEOs and whatever don't challenge him directly. It's part of the reason why he kind of muddles along with this because it gives people an out to be like, oh, you know, he's just joking about. He's not serious. He's not really. This isn't really Napoleon. Right. And so in some ways, it kind of allows him to kind of keep gradually doing authoritarian things without the backlash you might expect. I don't know. What do you think about that?
- [08:50]
D
Well, I think one of the things that saves us continually, and I'm saying this analytically, rather than as a partisan or just hauling off a random insult, is that he really is kind of a case of arrested development. I mean, Donald Trump in some ways is his instincts, his language, his reactions are like those of kind of an eight year old. And I think on the one hand, that stops him from doing things because he is, if you think about children, they can be incredibly bold and cruel at one point and then completely insecure and kind of lost at the next point. So that actually works in favor of democracy and stopping authoritarianism. But it also, as you just pointed out, Tim, it stops people from taking him too seriously. You know, look, Charlie Sykes and I are always using the expression clowns with flamethrowers. Well, you know, an 8 year old with an Uzi still has an Uzi, right? You know, I mean, he still can, you know, doesn't know how to shoot it, doesn't know what he's doing, but can still, you know, spray lead all over a room and hurt a lot of people. Years ago, when I wrote that piece that I know he must have read because he, he reacted to it when I called him the least manly president. And why do, why do his supporters like someone who is so unmanly? And the answer I came up with is because he's America's problem child. You know, he's. He become. His supporters are like the parents at the principal's office saying, I know he lit the school mascot on fire, but he's a good boy. You know, he doesn't. And that gets. He gets away with a lot because of that because people don't hold him personally responsible because how responsible can you hold an 8 year old for anything? But he wants to do it. He wants to be in charge of the club. He wants to tell people what to do and, you know, play with his toy soldiers and put them in the streets and, you know, whether he's a kind of dysfunctional eight year old or not, he is the President of the United States with all of the powers that pertain to that office.
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C
Hey, y', all, I warned you. I warned you. Our Toronto show has sold out. The Canadians love Sam Stein so much that, you know, there are lines around the block to get tickets to it. But the good news is we still have tickets left for our live shows in Washington, D.C. and in New York coming up in early October. So go get those tickets now@the bulwark.com events. I'm missing LSU versus South Carolina for you guys. I'm going to be in New York for that. And so assuming that's an afternoon game, I might have a couple bourbons in me by the time we get on stage on Saturday night. So that one could be a rowdy one. So if you're looking for an excuse to get to the Big Apple, see it, you know, go see a show Friday night, come see us Saturday night. Could be a fun little weekend. Go get tickets. Like I said. TheBullWork.com events TheBullWork.com events See y' all soon. All right, so, yeah, so let's take US down the ominous pipeline to where JVL was yesterday from this time to embrace the suck. Yeah, I think his threat assessment is a little greater than 8 year old with Uzi. Let's just say the subhead of the piece was Trump is waging war against the American government. When he's done, he'll use the government to wage war against Americans. I just want to list a couple of points. And he gets into the purges. I want to talk to you about the purges in specific, but just at a macro. These are just some of the examples he gives because there's more. Trump pushed out the sitting FBI director and then purged the bureau's career leadership. He fired the Joint Chiefs and purged the ranks of senior generals. He's attempting to fire one of the Federal Reserve governors right now. And he's directing state National Guards to create special rapid deployment units that he can use against civil unrest. And he pulls on this together to say this is all the same project attacking the government and re engineering it to serve as a weapon against the American people. And that there's a part of me that doesn't want to give Trump the credit because that makes it seem like it's a plan. But it's sort of hard to argue that that's what's happening.
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D
I agree. And, you know, I don't think Jonathan's wrong. I think, you know, after I've just said all this about, you know, an 8 year old with an Uzi, the people around him are adults who know what they're doing.
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C
Some of them, I would say most of them. I mean, is Bobby Kennedy an adult? I mean, is Pete Hegseth an adult?
- [13:10]
D
Well, Pete Hegseth, you know, an absentee landlord at this point. But Bobby Kennedy, he knows what he's doing. I mean, go ahead and try and get a Covid shot in three months.
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C
Or today in Georgia.
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D
Yeah, I mean, just try Bobby out and see what happens in three or four months. They, they are marching toward doing things. And there are people behind the scenes that probably whose names you don't even know that are, you know, one layer down in the Trump bureaucracy. And they know what they're doing. The interesting thing is, is how many of them are probably lawyers. I mean, you know, but now Emil Beauvais is a federal judge.
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C
Right.
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D
My colleague David Frum, you know, in the first Trump term, we're talking eight years ago, said watch for what they're going to do. They're going to try and stock the judiciary to basically make sure that Nobody can say no to their plans. I argued back then, and in the interim when I said this is what he'll do if he's, if he comes back to office, he's going to seize the Justice Department, the Defense Department and the intelligence community. And the purges that you're seeing, I mean, I'm sorry about what's happening at CDC and hhs, but you can get those doctors back. I mean that you can snap back on that pretty fast. It's going to take a while to dig these seditionists and authoritarians out of the Justice Department. The Defense Department, the FBI, the FBI, the CIA is going through a purge now. They fired the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency, a three star general, because he didn't come up with the right answers. So somebody in there, you know, I mean, it's not Laura Loomer. I mean, that's. But it's somebody in there.
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C
We also don't actually have to be that smart to purge people. I mean, like that, like, you know, this is not exactly like 5D chess. Like, you know, like Wreck it Ralph could go in there and knock out people that have just donated.
- [15:06]
D
You know, you have to be moderately aware and intelligent. If you're doing it surgically and identifying, saying, you know, here are the people that could stand in the way and we need to just move them out of their offices. I mean, that's. So that's going on and this is incredibly dangerous right now. And again, the, one of the things that slows it down is that Donald Trump has the, the attention span of a, of a gnat. And so that's good, but it's not, it's just slowing this down and making it more chaotic, but it's not stopping it.
- [15:40]
C
It's hard to rank worries these days, but this is close to my top worry because I think it's hard for people to wrap their heads around. There is a kind of a lack of understanding about what a lot of these people do, what their jobs are, and it's hard to keep track of everything. I mean, I just was looking at the story this morning. I think the story's from four days ago and I just, I didn't missed it. The head of a Pentagon unit responsible for accelerating the military's adoption of new technology resigned on Monday. Three sources said it was because he had Don donated to Democrats in the past and he was getting hassled by DoD leadership. That's just one example. But it's like, I think it's a telling one because this stuff is Happening all across government. There are people that have serious jobs. I mean, I think that you would think that everybody would want to have an experienced person looking at adoption of new technologies for the military and that their past political donations wouldn't matter. But you're seeing this in the FBI, right? Mike Feinberg, I interviewed him a couple weeks ago and he's like, he was, was the one that came out and talked about it, and he was a China expert. But he said, and others have said, there are other people that have left the FBI you don't even know about. Right. Because they don't want the attention.
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D
But, Tim, the one place I think you're really wrong about this is you say, well, you would think one would think right, one would be wrong. Because the object, by the way, when I was an academic, I used to tell my students at a conference, when a professor said one could argue he means himself.
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C
That's not true in this case.
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D
Actually, one could argue, meaning me. And that if he. And if he says, I've been clocked, some have argued he means other people and they're wrong. But anyway, you know, if you say one would think you'd be wrong because look, what if the object is simply to move people out of offices and give your friends jobs that pay on average $175,000 plus federal benefits? You don't care if the job gets done. You don't give a shit about any of that. All you want to know is, are friends of mine getting their chance to plunder the treasury? Because the only reason, and we have to keep coming back to this, you know, yes, Stephen Miller and some of these other weirdos. Yeah, they wanted Trump to get elected because they have, you know, deep seated issues and they want to work them out through national policy and torment other human beings. Donald Trump ran to stay out of jail and get rich and replenish his personal fortune and get revenge on his enemies. And the way you do that is you fire everybody that could ever say no to you, who could possibly oppose you. And then you give jobs, good jobs. I mean, although, again, I know we've talked about this, but you know, some of these people are like, Bongino, I think figured out, it's like, hey, being a federal employee sucks, right? You know, this sucks.
- [18:31]
C
Podcasting, sounding great.
- [18:32]
D
All of a sudden, podcasting, you know, it's like that conversation and Ghostbusters, right? You've never been in the private sector. They expect results. So, you know, I think that when you look at these jobs and say, why would Trump Fire the guy who's at the office of, you know, transformational widgetry or something. He doesn't care what the office is. I mean, this is becoming death of Stalin shit. Right where somebody in the Pentagon pointed and said, that guy donated to Democrats. Give his job to a friend of mine.
- [19:04]
C
If you got a call today. We've ruminated about this in the podcast a couple times. I think it's. We're kind of at a different place now. We're nine months in. We know more than kind of during Doge when, when Elon just kind of, you know, was flame throwing at everything he could find in the government. But now, like, we're seeing more clearly what they're doing. Well, if you get a call from somebody at State or at the FBI or CIA or whatever, and they're like, I don't know what to do, man. Like, I'm thinking about leaving. Should I stay? Should I go? What do you think people should do right now in those positions? Stay.
- [19:39]
D
Stay, Absolutely.
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C
What about the cdc people who are like, I'm a scientist. This quack is coming in and he's going to put my name on some paper that talks about how autism is what vaccines cause autism, different matter.
- [19:53]
D
I think when you ask me about people in the security, law enforcement, intelligence, defense bureaucracy, my answer is it will probably be worse without you than with you. I think for people in, you know, Health, education, human Services to do mass walkouts and gain that attention, I think is really important. I think in, in Health, human Services, Social Security, you know, people resigning on mass actually has, first of all, a lot of folks are doctors and have, you know, the ability to keep practicing their trade. I mean, I think if you're a, you know, if you're a GS13 at the CIA, you're not going to hang out a shingle afterwards. But also, I think for those folks in those jobs, they have to assume it would be worse unless so many people walk out. Like, remember in Trump's first term when they were gonna make Jeffrey. What's his name?
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C
Clark.
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D
Jeffrey Clark. Thank you. The guy, they were gonna make him Attorney General. And basically the people around Trump said everyone in the top layer of the Justice Department gonna walk out at the same time, including all the people in this room.
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C
Yeah.
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D
Now that, you know, if that's where you're gonna go with that, then that could work. But I think for most of those people, I think I, I kind of agree with Susan Menarez and the way she approached it. Make them fire you, you know, don't just don't. What is Timothy Snyder's comment? Don't, don't obey in advance. If they're going to fire you, then make them have to fire you and put it in writing. And then you have then fight better.
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C
Than the me working for Kash Patel for three more years. But I agree. I think Susan Menaros has handled this very well. Just while we're, while you're mentioning the fact that he does have a layer of adults and of seasoned people keep yelling at me that I'm saying this word wrong. So since you're the expert, you can tell me how to say it. Apparatchik. Apparatchik. Aparchik.
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D
Yeah, apparatchik.
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C
Apparatchik.
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D
Someone who works in the apparat.
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C
Apparatchik. Russ Vogt was just appointed to do the final last rites on usaid.
- [22:07]
D
Well, Russ Foudt is when we were talking about people who know what they're doing, who are behind the scenes. I've been saying this since day one. Russ Voud is the guy, you know, he's one of the guys you want to watch. He's a true believer. You know, he is not there to just, you know, unlike Dan Bongino, he's not there to just get driven to work every day. He believes in what he's doing and he's smart and, you know, those are the people that are going to do this. While Trump is, you know, holding three hour cabinet meetings about how awesome he is.
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C
When you said some stuff can get fixed and can snap back, USAID is like dead forever, right? I don't know. Not forever. But could a Democrat that comes back in possibly prioritize that? Maybe, I don't know, a Democratic president could.
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D
Yeah, sure. I mean, Trump did all this stuff. First of all, I think one of the things that's really unfortunate is that Trump did things that, that I'm not sure are legal in the sense of disbanding stuff that was created by statute. Presidents can reverse their own executive orders. You know, they can mess with executive agencies like USAID and State. But if Congress establishes something, the president can't just make it go away. That would be something we would be talking about, of course, if Republicans controlled the House, but a Democrat controlled the White House, because then they would say, well, you can't run roughshod over a co equality branch of government, blah, blah, blah. Okay, but Democrats need to say the same thing. So could it come back? Because you could make the argument that it was never legally disestablished in the first place. Probably. Maybe that could happen. Or you could simply put back a lot of those programs through the State Department under a functioning Secretary of State and an actual, you know, president who cared about this stuff. But is it coming back, you know, in the next three years? No. And three years is a long time to go without it.
- [24:11]
C
Yeah. And obviously it's like in three years. I don't know. I'm kind of suspect about how it can be reanimated at all, but that's a problem for another day.
- [24:21]
B
Ever wanted to stay on vacation longer? Us too. With VRBO's long stay discounts, you can stay longer and save more on select properties. Gotta love a win win book. The perfect summer getaway today with VRBO Private vacation rentals. Your future self will thank you later.
- [24:37]
C
I want to just really quick get you on the security clearances stuff. This is related to the purges. Two news items on this. This week, Tulsi revoked the security clearance of, like, 31 CIA agents, including. And they were named, including. One was an undercover senior officer who was a longtime. Russia. They call it Russia hand. I guess that that means Russian spy.
- [24:58]
D
Or a Russia analyst. I mean, it could just be somebody who, you know, does a lot of work on Russia.
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C
And then just this morning, they revoked Kamala Harris's security detail, which just seems like an fu before her book tour. Traditionally, actually, vice president's only got six months, but she was given protection for a year and a half. I don't know why.
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D
Oh, yeah, no. I mean, Trump wants to put these. He either wants them to have to spend a shitload of money on private security. Hold up one thing, Tim. You got a hunk of glitter stuck to your eye on the other side.
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C
I do?
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D
Yeah. Your left eye.
- [25:34]
C
See it? No, I can't.
- [25:36]
D
No, no, no, your eyelid. See it? Other eye, other eye.
- [25:42]
C
That's my left eye.
- [25:43]
D
There it is.
- [25:44]
C
I get it.
- [25:45]
D
All right. Yeah, there you go.
- [25:46]
C
All right. Include that in the video.
- [25:48]
D
I mean, I know. I know you're. You know, I know you're a sparkly guy, but that didn't. Okay, thank you. I think Trump just wants these people to have to spend, you know, a shitload of money on security, the way Mitt Romney's had to do.
- [26:00]
C
Yeah.
- [26:01]
D
Or, you know, he's trying to expose them to personal risk. I mean, I wrote a piece months ago where I said, if John Bolton gets whacked, you know, if. If some Iranians get managed to get over here and they managed to scrag John Bolton, that Blood's on Trump's hands. You know, these people served their country. Whether you like them or not, they served their country. There was an expectation that their country would look out for them. And, you know, Trump is saying no, you know, if you, you, you crossed me. Well, be a shame if something happened to you while you were walking down Connecticut Avenue.
- [26:36]
C
I've got a couple of JD Vance items I want to get your take on. This first JD Vance item is really a Steve Witkoff item, actually. Well, I need to give a big lead into this, you understand, so people can understand what's happening. So Politico runs the story about Witkoff, you know, the out of borough real estate magnate who's trying to end the Russia, Ukraine war. The headline is his inexperience shines through. Steve Wyckoff struggles to manage Russia as Trump peace envoy. It includes this fact, which I guess I should have known but hadn't realized, how many times Wyckoff has met Putin. Five times over the last six months. And obviously that is not translated into anything. This feels more like a just obvious fact than any opinion that anyone has given. You don't need to go to blind sources to see this. Russia was bombing Kyiv Yesterday, killed like 18 people. JD Vance was upset about this story. And the vice president posted this. This story from Politico is journalistic malpractice. But it's more than that. It's a foreign influence operation meant to hurt the administration and one of our most effective members. The person who wrote this garbage is Felicia Schwartz. There are two possible explanations. Felicia is just not very smart and allowed herself to be used by deep state con men. Or she's in on it and used her position willingly. And used her position to willingly participate in a literal foreign influence op. That's got to be the most insane thing. A vice President of the United States.
- [28:04]
D
I mean, there's plenty of competition, but.
- [28:09]
C
I mean, Mike Pence never posted anything that crazy. And that is. That is unbelievable.
- [28:13]
D
That's a new thing. I was joking, you know, joking around with Noah Rothman the other day because somebody at Tulsi Gabbard's comms shop said, you know, Noah Rothman is part of the Deep State operation now. I mean, you know, it's like. And then they said newsmax now. Newsmax, they said, is now in on it. I mean, we're through the looking glass here, people. You know, the reverse vampires are working with the Rand Corporation. I mean, this is nuts. But they. Vance doesn't believe any of that. I mean, Vance gets briefings. And he knows better. But, you know, there are people, I'm sure, who genuinely believe this. But more to the point, they know that it will inflame the 20% of the 40% who are even more bonkers than everybody else, and they will flood the zone and start, you know, sending hate mail and death threats and all the things that happen when the Trump administration identifies you as, you know, part of the deep state or a foreign influence operation or, you know, whatever it is they do. I mean, this is just, this is authoritarian bullying in its purest form. And Vance, Vance, I think in some ways is the worst of the bunch because Vance, more than anybody knows better. He's not a stupid person. He knows what he's doing.
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C
I'm trying to understand what the foreign influence op is. He. Do you think he's saying that Ukraine is trying to undermine Wyckoff?
- [29:43]
D
Probably, I think that's right. Right. That probably this is, you know, those. That there's a Ukrainian James Bond on the loose, you know, who is, you know, convincing reporters to write, you know, terrible stories about Steve Witkoff. The terrible story you could write about Steve Witkoff is he has met with Putin this many times and nothing has happened. You could stop. That's a one paragraph story. Presidential envoy Steve Witkoff's met with Putin this many times and every time Putin, you know, the next day Putin, or within a week, Putin, you know, blasts the crap out of Ukraine. That's not a foreign operation.
- [30:21]
C
Not.
- [30:21]
D
That's like two facts that you can just place next to each other that look terrible. This is kind of the hysteria, Tim. You know, it's like, I mean, political. You're going to the barricades. Not even against the Wall Street Journal or the New York Times. Right. Or some, you know, you're saying this one reporter at Politico who wrote this one critical story about Steve Witkoff, she's one of the reverse vampires. She's, you know, I mean, it's nuts.
- [30:48]
C
It's like. It also is a totally anodyne story that I never would have read if JD Vance hadn't tweeted it. It's like, what do you think?
- [30:55]
D
One thing this administration doesn't understand, and Trump definitely doesn't understand it. These people do not understand the Streisand effect. They just don't because I haven't read that story yet. And I'm going to the minute we're done with this pod.
- [31:09]
C
He goes on this statement, I only read you part of it. It goes on. There's just more Crazy shit in here, so I have to read it. The fruits of Wyckoff's negotiations are that we've narrowed the list of open issues in the Russia, Ukraine war to a set of clearly defined issues, specifically security guarantees and territorial concessions. Well, no fucking shit, Sherlock. That's what we've narrowed it to. Russia wants territory and Ukraine wants to be protected. What were the other. What were the other like, that's what the war is about.
- [31:38]
D
Yeah, really.
- [31:39]
C
And Steve Wykoff's done nothing. Russia's killing civilians right now. So, like, it's lunacy.
- [31:45]
D
Everybody I don't like is a deep state operative or, or, you know, working for foreign agents. I mean, this is really, you know, kind of. This is just sort of Mickey Mouse Stalinism. Yeah, the next thing you know, they're going to be arresting people. I mean, then it becomes a lot more serious thing. Admit that you are in league with imperialists in Japan and Germany, comrade. I mean, it's. It's bonkers.
- [32:08]
C
But again, maybe instead of asking deep state operatives, we should ask the families of the dead Ukrainian children whether they think Steve Wyckoff is killing it or not. Like, the whole thing is just preposterous. It's insulting.
- [32:19]
D
But it's meant to put people in danger. It's meant to generate death threats and harassment and emails and, you know, all that stuff. I mean, that's basically, it's saying, shut up or I release the flying monkeys on you.
- [32:32]
B
Ever wanted to stay on vacation longer? Us too. With Verbal's long stay discounts, you can stay longer and save more on celebrity properties. Gotta love a win win book. The perfect summer getaway today with VRBO Private vacation rentals. Your future self will thank you later.
- [32:49]
C
Our Nobel vice president had another interesting statement that I want to share with you. This was to. He was getting interviewed by the USA Today about the Fed, the purge of Lisa Cook, quote, I don't think we allow bureaucrats to make decisions about monetary policy and interest rates without any input from the people that were elected to serve the American.
- [33:11]
D
No, that's exactly how we do it, Mr. Vice President. That is exactly our system. Specifically so that we will insulate the people making decisions about these policies from politically from. From elected officials. That's why we created this.
- [33:25]
C
Maybe we should just poll the public. Maybe we should just be asking people at the, you know, at the Piggly Wiggly whether they think that interest rates should be lower or higher. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? And this is. This is a prime death of expertise moment for You.
- [33:38]
D
And it's the death of expertise. Because the death of expertise is always, particularly in government, is almost always related to populism.
- [33:48]
C
Right?
- [33:49]
D
Who are those pinheads, smarty pants, with their Nobel Prize economics prizes, trying to set interest rates? Bob and I here, we got this.
- [34:01]
C
We got it.
- [34:02]
D
I think if it wouldn't be so ruinous to all of us. There's a part of me that says, you know what? Have at it. And, and when inflation is back up.
- [34:12]
C
There'S a big part of me that wants them to have at it.
- [34:14]
D
Right. I mean, you know, there's a lot of, like, when inflation is, you know, 15 and your credit cards are 40 and your car loans are 19, you know, good luck with that. But the problem is that you can't. You know, that's a kind of a shoot the hostage situation. I mean, you can't, you can't do it without hurting a lot of people. And. But again, Vance went to college, went to a decent college, then went to.
- [34:38]
C
Yale, wrote a book about it, you.
- [34:40]
D
Know, went to law school at Yale and went undergrad, I believe, to Ohio State. I mean, he knows exactly why we insulate these kinds of. He knows why the Fed was created, for God's sakes. I mean, if he doesn't, shouldn't be a senator or a vice president. But he knows, and he's just saying, look, if it were up to me, J.D. vance, who you should vote for in three years, your interest rates would be negative 5. We'd be. Every time you charge something, we'd send you money. But I can't help it, because these, these guys and these guys who take showers in the morning and wear ties.
- [35:16]
C
Read, you know, they read the footnotes. Yeah.
- [35:20]
D
And. And, you know, they. Shoes with laces, you know, you know, they're making these interest rates because they want you to suffer. And he knows. He knows what he's doing. If it weren't so destructive, it would be embarrassing because the amount of pandering that's going on, I mean, politicians always pander. Every politician, right, left, center, there's a certain amount of pandering because you have to get people who don't understand complex issues to trust you, that you basically will go in the right direction for their, for them on their behalf. But what, what people like Vance are doing, I mean, it's, it's cringy, it's. It's embed like, my God, you know, have a, have, have an ounce of dignity here, but use your. This is, this is where I think the betrayal you know, people have often asked me, after I wrote that piece, calling him a bad name in the.
- [36:09]
C
Atlantic, what was the bad name? I don't.
- [36:11]
D
An asshole. I called him an asshole.
- [36:12]
C
Oh, that's the fucking nicest thing I've said about J.D. vance.
- [36:15]
D
I know, but we. We're not. Not usually a word we use in the magazine. You know, what is it that particularly annoys me about him? I come like him. I come from the working class. And I know that he had the opportunity to educate and lead and talk to people in the working class about these issues and help them. And I guess I feel like if there's any such thing as a politician who has betrayed my people, people I feel like are my folks. Vance is the guy who really got way out ahead on this and said, no, no, you can trust me. I'm a hillbilly. I come from your background. And the minute he had, you know, a microgram of power, he just betrayed them and played them for fools. And he still does. He. Nobody has the kind of contempt for his own people and his own voters as J.D. vance. I mean, it's just remarkable the level of just outright contempt that he manages to show for his own people every day.
- [37:16]
C
I don't have much more to add to that. I should just say, though, he.
- [37:19]
D
And I am further, I am of the opinion that Carthage ought to be destroyed.
- [37:23]
C
Ended this statement with potus is much better able to make these determinations. And I just. Stealing from Matt, he knows that's not true.
- [37:30]
D
I mean, he knows it. He knows. He's like. What he's saying is the president should make these decisions. And that way I know you'll vote for me and I'll get to make some of them too.
- [37:40]
C
Stealing from Matt Iglesias. It does seem like we're speed running a century of Argentina's economic decline here with this stuff. I mean, if they actually go through with it, if they actually go through with it, that's what we're really looking at.
- [37:51]
D
Yeah, this is hype. This is, you know, peronism played at 78rpm. Oh, I just dated myself with that reference, didn't I?
- [37:58]
C
No, that's good.
- [37:59]
D
People understand that. Records.
- [38:01]
C
I know about RPMs and I got a record player. They're back now. That's like hipsters doing.
- [38:04]
D
Oh, right, right. Okay, now, so that. That reference marks me as cool now.
- [38:09]
C
Yeah, exactly. You've come right around. It's sort of like if you don't change your genes, you know, eventually, you know, the style will come back around. To you?
- [38:17]
D
Well, it is, it's, it is. You're right. It's speedrunning, Peronism. I mean, can you imagine what the Republican right would be saying if you, if Joe Biden said or Kamala Harris said, listen, we loaned some money to intel, we want 10% of that company.
- [38:30]
C
Well, yeah, we don't even have to do it.
- [38:32]
D
Wow. They'd be like burning pictures of Karl Marx on Pennsylvania Avenue. And again, you know, they know it. But I also wonder how many of them are profiting from this. When you're trying to explain this, you can't explain it via some like, what is their theory of macroeconomic policy here? Instead you have to ask like, is somebody getting rich from this? Again, who's plundering the treasury here by doing this?
- [38:59]
C
I think in a lot of cases it's corruption and plundering. I think that there are a handful of things that Donald Trump has weird obsessions with tariffs. And all of the team just wants to appease the eight year old with the Uji. And I think that that is the case here. He was a real estate guy. He likes low interest. I think that this is kind of like, you know, Japan is screwing us. Like, I think that he has a couple of core beliefs. And, and that's, that's.
- [39:25]
D
I think you're right. He has some core fixations. They're not even tariffs work. Japan is, is always bad and screwing us.
- [39:34]
C
Yeah.
- [39:34]
D
There was one other. You know that interest rates should be low unless someone's borrowing money from me.
- [39:40]
C
Right.
- [39:41]
D
You know, I mean there are. These are not even well formed idea. Again, they're kind of the way an 8 year old thinks of the world. The rules should be rules. Except when I don't want them to be.
- [39:49]
C
Yeah. And kind of Archie Bunker level racism is sort of his thing too. It's not like a deep level, but sort of, you know, he believes all the cliches, you know, about every category, you know, you can imagine him and.
- [40:00]
D
Except for the, except for the ones he knows.
- [40:02]
C
Right.
- [40:02]
D
Yeah. Right. I have to tell you, my dad was that kind of a racist. He'd say, you know, black people and Hispanic, you know, he used all the words, you know, and then he'd say. And I'd say, but dad, you work. He saw. Oh, Joe.
- [40:14]
C
No, he's ok. Joe's all right. He's a good guy.
- [40:17]
D
He's a good guy.
- [40:21]
C
I was going to end with fun. Well, we will still end with a fun topic. But I have one more. Is fun the right word? For the end topic. Oh boy. We're ending with a topic that people seem to enjoy, I guess let's put it that way. But first, we have a little breaking news here. Iowa Senator Joni Ernst is telling people that she's not going to be seeking reelection next year. It's kind of relevant because the Democrats are desperate to figure out how to expand their map to other states that could win. Conceivably, Republicans put up a total nut in Iowa. Ernst, for all the reasons why our listeners don't like her, all the good reasons, is like a decently replacement level, maybe slightly above replacement level Republican for Iowa as far as political capability. So that's interesting.
- [40:59]
D
And Iowa, you know, you saw that thing where the woman who broke the supermajority in the state senate flipped that seat by 20 points.
- [41:07]
C
Special election. You're talking about the special election?
- [41:09]
D
Yeah, the special election. I'm sorry. Yes. And you know, but I just want to say how sad I am to see Ernst go because she's been such a consistent voice defending the independence and civil control of the military and standing up again.
- [41:21]
C
Oh, no, no, no.
- [41:22]
D
I'm just. None of that actually happens.
- [41:24]
C
Yeah, right. No. And this is the thing that pisses me off. And it's just like why I'm going to be the old man in the old folks home pointing my bony finger at people and doing like they were for Trump. And I will never. These are the things I'll never be able to get over. Like she does this whole thing about how because of her experience, the one thing she really cares about is sexual assault in the military and protecting sexual assault victims.
- [41:47]
D
And therefore I'm going to confirm.
- [41:49]
C
Yeah. And then so they bring in a guy who's been. Has been incredibly accused of sexual assault and like while, you know, he had one wife he's being divorced from, his other baby mama was pregnant or I forget the exact timeline, but you know.
- [42:01]
D
And has fired all the senior women in the military.
- [42:03]
C
Exactly. And she claimed that she got some concession from him. Right. That there was going to be a czar of sexual assault. I forgot the exact word was or something like that. There'd be a special appointee that would focus on sexual assault in the military. How's that fucking going? Where's that? Have we seen that? Or have we actually just seen women get purged from the military? All these people are such cowards. Just like do stand up for something. You don't have to be Tim. You don't have to be Tom and have tds and what you don't have to become a Democrat, but, like, have some spine on something. And, like, they. None of them do.
- [42:37]
D
You would think that especially on Pete Hegseth.
- [42:41]
C
Yeah.
- [42:41]
D
I mean, I still can't form the words Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth without kind of, you know, sad JVL type blaster, you know, but you would have thought that at least a handful of Republicans would have gone and said, Look, Mr. President, we're going to do all kinds of crazy stuff on your behalf. You're going to get a lot of stuff you want, but you're going to have to take Bobby Kennedy and Pete Hegseth out behind the barn and just leave them there. You know, let them send them to a farm upstate where they can run free. You know, that's how senators do it.
- [43:11]
C
Especially if you're not gonna run for reelection, by the way. Not that it would have been more defensible, but, like, you don't even have a political reason to do it anymore. You thrust this on us for nothing.
- [43:19]
D
I wonder how many of. I wonder if Ernst really thought in 2024 that she wasn't gonna run for reelection or whether after a year and a half of this or what. How long has it been?
- [43:29]
C
It's only been seven months.
- [43:30]
D
Seven months. Shit. But, you know, after seven months of this, she's looking ahead and saying, you know what? I'm just. I need to be on some corporate boards and do some really nice home redecoration and, you know, just get the. Get the hell out of Dodge. But it's, you know, on the. I suppose that it's a small comfort to say that people. Someone like Ernst has finally said, I've had enough and I'm leaving.
- [43:56]
C
Is it. It's not a comfort to me. If you're finding comfort, that's fine. I encourage other people to find comfort anywhere. My blood pressure is through the roof right now because I just want to strangle her. It's just like I don't. Not literally strangler, but like, I don't fuck you. Joni Ernst is basically what I think it's just a total fart. Like, the whole thing is a sham. You got nothing out of this.
- [44:17]
D
And you could argue, right. Well, the person who's going to replace her, who would be. Could be worse. But based on her voting record. How would you know how. That's the problem. I mean, you know, like when you say, well, you know, Senator Cassidy is now very disappointed and, you know, and Susan Collins is very concerned, but their voting record and their behavior in terms of constraining this march of, you know, Peronism, authoritarianism, creeping Stalinism, whatever you want to call it, their record is indistinguishable from, you know, Ted Cruz or, you know, the other Tommy Tuberville.
- [44:54]
C
Right.
- [44:54]
D
There's no.
- [44:55]
C
They've stopped legislating. Like, we don't even have a legislature in any meaningful way.
- [45:00]
D
If you took 50 Republican senators, you know, blanked out their faces and put up their records, you couldn't distinguish among them.
- [45:07]
C
No. Murkowski could figure out. Yeah, I mean, it's like you might, right?
- [45:10]
D
You might say, oh, wait, oh, did that person. That person voted no on cloture.
- [45:14]
C
Right.
- [45:15]
D
That must have been Murkowski. But you know that otherwise, there's no way to tell them apart.
- [45:20]
C
Yeah. I got into a fight with Karl Rove about this on a panel a couple months ago when he was talking about the importance of having people like Thom Tillis in there. And I was just doing that same rant you just did. I was like, why? What would be the difference? Put the fucking pizza guy, put the guy in the porn, jerking off in the back of the porn shop in there instead. He's the same as Tom Tillis. At least I wouldn't have to deal with the condescending lectures from Tom Tillis about how serious he is.
- [45:42]
D
Well, and at the end of the year. At the end of the year, you could take the. Well, I'm not going where you're going, but you could take, you know, the guy in the MAGA hat who's always yelling at the Costco, Right. And Thom Tillis. Put them both in the Senate again. Blank out their names, look at their voting records. You can't tell them apart. You can't tell them, what's the difference?
- [46:00]
C
Right? So give me the MAGA hat guy. I want to know what I'm dealing with. I don't want somebody to be smugly talking about how they're the serious one while they're acting indistinguishable from Tommy Tuberville.
- [46:10]
D
Well, you know, Tim, that, as you remember, eight years ago. God, it's that long already. But when I finally took my trial separation from the Republicans, became a divorce, it wasn't Trump or Tuberville or any of those guys. It was Susan Collins. And because when Collins got out there and sounded like just every other MAGA senator voting for, you know, Kavanaugh, I said, that's it. There is no. There is no fallback position within the Republican Party. There is no moderate center in the party. There is no cadre of resistance. They are all indistinguishable from one another. People always say, oh, yeah, what, you quit? When did you quit? You know, because of January 6th or because of Trump or because of that. I'm like, well, it was actually Susan Collins who talked me out of being a Republican, which seems kind of crazy, but that. It makes a lot of sense in the system.
- [47:01]
C
Makes total sense. I adopted, I officially did it after, during the stop the steal stuff, before January 6th, because I was like, nobody's standing up to him, so what's the point? Like, how can I be finding these people again? Good riddance, Joni Aarons. Okay, final topic real quick.
- [47:13]
D
Donald Trump's ankles.
- [47:15]
C
Yeah, the bruises, the hand bruises. We've done the cankles. But what about the bruises? I mean, you know, a lot of elderly people. What's happening with the bruises? On the one hand, I keep thinking Donald Trump's the kind of guy that's gonna live forever. You know, he just. People like lizard people like that don't ever die. But on the other hand, I don't know, the bruises do look kind of like the Queen of England's bruises.
- [47:31]
D
Look, I am not, let's not have a death of expertise moment. You and I are not medical doctors, okay?
- [47:37]
C
But can't we shoot this shit? Okay, I'm not trying to tell people I'm a medical doctor, but we're just, you know, we're a couple guys at the back.
- [47:44]
D
I was gonna say we're in popt if we were sitting there in Cheers. Naming. You know, it's a, It's a known fact, Diane, that.
- [47:55]
C
Exactly.
- [47:56]
D
It's a, It's a known fact, Diane, that bruises on the back of the hand are where the aliens put the invader Mark. No, I, I, I, I'm not a doctor, but what I was going to say is I do know doctors, and I have been asking them, okay? And, you know, a, I feel like I'm doing that scene from A Streetcar Named Zara. You know, I have a doctor friend downtown.
- [48:17]
C
Okay?
- [48:18]
D
But the doctors I know say, well, this is, this is somebody who's having a lot, like a daily iv. Like, this is the bruising you get from, like, regular IVs that have to be, you know, that are, that are doing a lot of damage and maybe. And one guy said to me, they're doing a lot of damage because I don't want to do it to both hands, because then you'd have to cover up. You're going to get bruises on both hands. So he's got that one hand that they're just using and covering up over and over again. I mean, the ankles, I guess there's doctors said something about, you know, venous insufficiency. I feel like. I feel like I'm being Greg House. That's a diagnosis of exclusion, you idiots. You know, But. But, you know, I mean, the. The couple of guys that I reached out to, just as friends, and they said that looks like heart failure. You know, that's what happens when you're starting to get, you know, real circulatory problems and heart issues, and your ankles, you know, really swell up. But we're not doctors, but I think we're both safe in saying the man is not in good health. And whatever my personal feelings about Donald Trump, he's the President of the United States.
- [49:21]
C
Yeah.
- [49:21]
D
I want. I am a citizen in this country. I want to know about the health of my president.
- [49:25]
C
Maybe I don't really want to know, though. What about that? Maybe I just want to speculate. We'll see.
- [49:30]
D
Well, I, you know, I would. I think, you know, I'm a citizen. I want to know.
- [49:34]
C
Okay. You know, we're going to be monitoring the ankles.
- [49:40]
D
That's why we have. Look, that's why we have a White House doctor. The man, he. He works for us. He is a federal employee. The President and the White House physician are federal employees who work for the people of the United States. If the President of the United States is in ill health, you know, the. The Republicans are, oh, this is a story. And it's deep state. You know, yada, yada, yada. Hey, you're the guys that complained about it when Jack Kennedy had Addison's disease and nobody was telling anybody. You're the guys that, you know, claim that Joe Biden was a, you know, was basically a mummified replica of himself, you know, being held together with wax and chewing gum. You know, all of a sudden, you can't just say now, well, the president's health is none of your business. No. The commander in chief, the man who controls the nuclear arsenal, the man who is the most powerful man in the world. If he's having health troubles, then we deserve to know about it.
- [50:36]
C
Yeah, sounds right. Tom Nichols. We survived it. You had some Internet issues. My brain is not at 100%. And yet we still managed to do podcast magic today. And I appreciate you for that.
- [50:48]
D
You're hungover, I'm pissed off, and my cable company is stuttering. You know, like, what was that? What's that great Billy Crystal line. I pee, you know, with his prostate. I pee like a guy with a stutter bump. Buh, buh, buh, buh. My computer. I don't know where I was going with that joke, but my computer company has just been like shutting off the Internet every five minutes.
- [51:07]
C
Well, I appreciate you this podcast episode somewhere in the Internet will live forever. We're not sure about our president and I'll be back Monday. For people who want to know we are doing me and Bill are going to do are going to do a short one and it's Labor Day but we're gonna be here serving you the people you know if you need a little audio joy for your beach walk or whatever you're doing your barbecue before after your barbecue after you're after you are tired of all your friends. So we'll be seeing y' all on Monday. Thanks Tom Nichols. We'll see you soon.
- [51:33]
D
Thanks for having me, Tim.
- [51:34]
C
Bye Bye Keith.
- [51:36]
E
Maybe I don't really wanna know how you got and grows Cause I just want to fly lately did you ever feel the pain in the morning rain I just soaked you to the bone maybe I just want to fly want to live but don't want to die maybe I just want to breathe maybe I just don't believe maybe all the same as me we see things I'll.
- [52:13]
D
Never see.
- [52:21]
E
I said maybe I don't really want to know everybody world Cuz I just want to fly lately did you ever feel a pain in the mountain rain I just sold you to.
- [52:41]
C
The ground.
- [52:43]
E
Maybe I will never be all the things that I want to be now is now the time to cry Now's the time to find out why I think you're the same as me we see things I'll never see People I don't It's I just want to play lately in the modern way maybe I just want to fly wanna live I don't want to die maybe I just want to breathe maybe I just don't believe maybe be all the same as me we see things I'll never see.
- [54:49]
C
The board podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.