Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: Tom Nichols on "Covid Trump 2.0" Release Date: March 7, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a deep and critical conversation with Professor Emeritus Tom Nichols, a distinguished staff writer at The Atlantic. They dissect the tumultuous political landscape shaped by the Trump administration's policies, with particular attention to foreign affairs, economic strategies, and internal party dynamics. This summary captures the essence of their discussion, highlighting key points, notable quotes, and insightful analysis.

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1. Introduction and Context ([01:45])

Tim Miller opens the episode by welcoming Tom Nichols, emphasizing Nichols' expertise and extensive experience in analyzing contemporary political dynamics.

Notable Quote:

Tim Miller (01:45): "It's Friday. We have survived another week, barely. And I am here with one of your favorites."

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2. Trump's Foreign Policy and Betrayal of Ukraine ([02:45] - [08:58])

Nichols expresses his disappointment and surprise at President Trump's swift and seemingly reckless foreign policy decisions, particularly regarding Ukraine. He criticizes the abrupt shift in American support, which he perceives as a betrayal that aligns inadvertently with Vladimir Putin's interests.

Key Points:

• Speed and Severity: Trump’s rapid reorganization of foreign policy and withdrawal of intelligence support to Ukraine.
• Unintended Alliances: The shift inadvertently strengthens Putin’s position, undermining Ukraine’s defense.
• Senators' Inaction: GOP senators like Roger Wicker and Don Bacon are criticized for their passive responses despite the dire consequences for Ukraine.

Notable Quotes:

Tom Nichols (03:37): "He is going to reorganize American foreign policy into a de facto alliance with Vladimir Putin."

Tom Nichols (08:58): "It's trying to achieve an unjust peace on Vladimir Putin's terms so that the people who do the dying are going to be mostly Ukrainians from here on out."

Tim Miller (07:06): "It is an astonishing, sick betrayal of our ally."

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3. GOP Senators and Political Cowardice ([12:38] - [15:43])

The discussion shifts to the Republican senators who have failed to oppose Trump's detrimental policies effectively. Nichols laments their prioritization of political survival over national interest, highlighting fears of backlash from Trump loyalists.

Key Points:

• Fear of Reprisal: Senators are intimidated by threats and fear for their careers if they oppose Trump.
• Lack of Action: Merely wearing symbols of support (e.g., Ukraine pins) without substantive policy changes.
• Careerism Over Conscience: Senators like Susan Collins are noted for their reluctance to challenge harmful policies due to personal and political concerns.

Notable Quotes:

Tom Nichols (12:38): "If you're a senior U.S. senator and you're not going to vote your conscience because you're afraid of Donald Trump and people in your district, then go home, don't be a senator anymore."

Tim Miller (14:20): "You’re not gonna do something about this? Cuz you’re scared that you’ve gotten some empty death threats."

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4. Economic Policies and Tariffs ([36:50] - [43:57])

Miller and Nichols critique the Trump administration's inconsistent and erratic tariff policies, which undermine economic stability and consumer trust. They discuss the arbitrary nature of these decisions and their detrimental effects on various sectors.

Key Points:

• Inconsistency: Frequent imposition and removal of tariffs create uncertainty in the market.
• Lack of Rationale: Decisions appear capricious without clear economic justification.
• Impact on Consumers: Tariffs make goods more expensive, harming ordinary Americans who rely on affordable products.

Notable Quotes:

Tim Miller (40:04): "You don't care about cheap goods."

Tom Nichols (41:38): "These are our fellow citizens, you know, like the policies or not. These are our brothers and sisters as American citizens."

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5. Department of Defense’s DEI Policies ([28:05] - [33:42])

The conversation turns to the Defense Department under Secretary Pete Hegseth, who has mandated the removal of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) content. Nichols criticizes the draconian approach to erasing historical records and reflects on the broader implications for institutional culture.

Key Points:

• Censorship: Removal of LGBTQ+ references from Defense archives, including significant historical events.
• Stalinist Overtones: The attempt to erase parts of history echoes totalitarian practices.
• Cultural Backlash: Leaders within the department are seen as reacting out of fear and panic rather than strategic reasoning.

Notable Quotes:

Tom Nichols (29:00): "It's panicky. It's like a gay panic, almost."

Tim Miller (31:24): "It's openly homophobic and... a cross between the closeted colonel in American Beauty."

Tom Nichols (32:00): "There's a Stalinism to it."

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6. The Role of Elon Musk and Technocrats ([43:31] - [51:56])

Nichols and Miller delve into the influence of technocrats like Elon Musk within the Trump administration. They argue that these figures prioritize personal ambition and technological ventures over public service responsibilities, further destabilizing governmental functions.

Key Points:

• Musk's Autonomy: Elon Musk operates with significant independence, contributing to policy inconsistencies.
• Lack of Government Oversight: The administration appears unmanageable due to the unchecked power of wealthy technocrats.
• Consequences of Wealth: Extreme wealth leads to a detachment from public accountability, fostering ungovernable entities within the government.

Notable Quotes:

Tom Nichols (50:06): "Doesn't matter to him anymore... If Tesla tanks or SpaceX doesn't work, eventually it's going to matter."

Tim Miller (50:42): "The Tesla Stock is down 5.6% on Thursday, 29% for the month."

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7. Future Outlook and Conclusion ([49:34] - [56:14])

As the episode nears its end, Nichols and Miller reflect on the future trajectory of American politics under Trump’s continued influence. They express pessimism about the administration's ability to sustain its policies and the potential for internal collapse or external ridicule to reign in excesses.

Key Points:

• Sustainable Governance: The current administration's practices are deemed unsustainable and likely to lead to systemic failure.
• Hope Through Ridicule: Public and media ridicule may serve as a check against the technocrats' unchecked power.
• Emotional and Organizational Strain: Key figures within the administration are stressed and on the brink of emotional collapse due to the overwhelming pace and magnitude of their responsibilities.

Notable Quotes:

Tom Nichols (53:52): "There are several people in this administration who are headed for some kind of major emotional break sooner rather than later."

Tim Miller (54:43): "The Bulwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown."

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Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast presents a scathing critique of the Trump administration's policies and the GOP's failure to counteract detrimental actions effectively. Through incisive dialogue, Tim Miller and Tom Nichols illuminate the cascading effects of erratic foreign policies, economic instability, and internal censorship. Their analysis underscores a profound concern for the future of American democracy and the well-being of its citizens under current political leadership.

Final Notable Quote:

Tom Nichols (54:14): "We're taking on water... and we're taking on the ship is listing and we're taking on water."

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For listeners seeking an in-depth exploration of America's current political challenges, this episode offers a thought-provoking and critical perspective that cuts through partisan rhetoric to address underlying systemic issues.

Transcript

[Matt]

Hi, I'm Matt.

[Leah]

And I'm Leah and we're from the Grown Up Stuff podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season, on this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes and 17% of Gen Zers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense. So can't blame them. It's really important to do your taxes.

[Matt]

Listen to Grown up stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

[Leah]

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Friday. We have survived another week, barely. And I am here with one of your faves. Professor emeritus at the Naval War College. He's a staff writer at the Atlantic. His books include the Death of Experts Expertise, which has an updated and expanded edition. Go get it. It's Tom Nichols. And maybe Cat Lilly. We'll see. How's it going, Tom?

[Tom Nichols]

Good, Tim. Lily's sitting right here. She's waiting for her close up. So we may have a Lily sighting.

[Tim Miller]

All right. So somehow I went back and looked at the archives. Time is a flat circle. I feel like I'm living a lifetime every day. I also feel like I'm hearing from you constantly in all your various platforms. And so I was like, when was Nichols last on the podcast? And it was the day after inauguration. Oh, yeah, that was a real upper for people. So it's been six weeks since then and I wanted to start by just kind of asking you your biggest takeaways from this interminal Six weeks. What has surprised you? What has outraged you most?

[Tom Nichols]

I think a lot of things have not surprised me because we lived through the first term, but also because he's doing what he said he would do. He's trying to get even and get revenge and troll the country with this bizarre slate of cabinet officials and, you know, letting Elon Musk loose on, you know, federal workers who were just trying to do their jobs. I think the speed with which he betrayed Ukraine was a little bit surprising. I thought he would sort of ease his way into that with, you know, Kellogg over going overseas and doing something shaky at the negotiating table. I didn't expect him to basically, like, just reorganize American foreign policy into a de facto alliance with Vladimir Putin.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, well, that's a good place to start. Then there is the frog boiling element of this. It's hard to say what is surprising. I guess I thought that the Elon element has been a little bit more surprising to me just how much he's run roughshod over everything. And I think the way that he's fucked up the economy was a little quicker than I expected. But I don't know, this is like something that Nicole and I talk about, Nicole Walls and I talk about, which is like, we were the only ones that took him seriously. It seems like, like, there are a lot of people that were his supporters that didn't really, like, expect him to do all the things. And so, like, there's been anything in particular that shocked me, but like you, the speed of some of it is. Has surprised me.

[Tom Nichols]

I wish I could go back and, you know, the, the Trump folks that I talked to just before the election, and one in particular just swore to me they're not going to do tariffs. That's, you know, that's just. And I said, he loves tariffs. This is. He is going to rattle the economy. This wasn't hard to see coming, but it was hard to predict both how fast and how completely nutty it is. You know, it's. It's someone. Actually, a few folks have asked, like, who's out there? Who. Who knows what he's about to do? Who's, like, shorting them? Like, this is a day. If you have any inside information, it's a day traders paradise, right? It's like, okay, here comes the tariff, you know, thing. Oh, now he's going to roll it back. Oh, now the market's back up. The one thing I remember you and I talking about, I remember cautioning and saying, well, Elon Musk, he doesn't have that much power yet. I didn't imagine that Trump would deputize him to do this, that he would be able to pay Doge staffers six figure salaries. Which, you know, just always proves the point that these folks aren't about getting rid of government waste. They just prefer that it goes to them and that Congress and the courts would just say, okay, Article one doesn't operate anymore. The appointments clause doesn't operate anymore. The president can just pull a guy off the street and say, hey, go fire people. And the Constitution and the law just don't operate. That. That I guess surprised me a little bit.

[Tim Miller]

I guess we'll have to go to give ourselves a grade. I punish myself a lot with the amount of information that I'm consuming and the various sources I'm consuming them from. I don't re listen to myself, but maybe I'll punish myself by re listening to our January 21st one to see how it stacks up onto the Ukraine news. So over the past 24 hours, Russia has carried out massive strikes across the country using drones and ballistic missiles. It happened a day after the US Stopped sharing intelligence with Kyiv that had previously given advance warnings of attacks. Just before we got on, I interviewed a reporter, Kaylen Robertson, who's on the ground in Ukraine. People can check that out either on YouTube or on the Bulwark Takes podcast. He was reporting from Kyiv and says basically in the last 24 hours, the amount of air attack material that has gotten through onto the ground has been unlike anything previously. The air raid sirens were going off in Kyiv more often than they had been in the previous months. And all of this is just a direct one to one correlation that, like Trump just decided to flip the switch. We're no longer going to share intelligence with Ukraine. He told the Brits they can't share our intelligence with Ukraine. And Putin has taken advantage of it. And there's been deaths and destruction, targeting of energy infrastructure, and it is an astonishing, sick betrayal of our ally.

[Tom Nichols]

And just to make the point that it's not about some sort of strategic calculation, he's also decided to send home Ukrainian refugees. He wants to take that refugee status away from them. You know, this is basically operating in concert with Vladimir Putin. My colleague David Frum had a great line. You know, the Trump Russia theory is like now one of the most durable theories in political science because you're watching it play out in real time. You know, we're getting confirmation of it every day. Was there any overwhelming strategic or American interest reason to do this? And the Answer, of course, is no. And it's amazing because MAGA world always reacts to this like, well, we have to bring our boys home.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right. You know, it's like, what, what, what boys, boys. Where are they going?

[Tom Nichols]

What are you talking about?

[Tim Miller]

You know, here's the reason to do it. Just, just to be blunt, I give you as looking at the facts on the ground and you look at what happened in the Oval Office, we haven't touched since then. And the reason to do it is as if you are essentially on Putin's side and you're trying to force Zelensky to the negotiating table. Like, that is what this is. It's like, we're going to force Zelinsky to negotiate. And you see, he sent a tweet this morning that was basically thanking France because they still did have some F16s to protect their air that were French that they had borrowed. And he said basically he wants to go to the negotiating table to try to get a ceasefire for air and sea because he can't protect his country. And like, that is, I guess, if you're going to art of the deal this and say that it's something besides just capricious Trump advanced temper tantrums. It would be that he is in league with Putin and trying to push Zelensky to the table.

[Tom Nichols]

It's not trying to achieve a just peace so that people stop dying. It's trying to achieve an unjust peace on Vladimir Putin's terms so that the people who do the dying are going to be mostly Ukrainians from here on out.

[Tim Miller]

The Macron press conference, I guess it wasn't a press conference, it was addressed to the nation earlier this week, was just. It still is astonishing. Again, we all saw this coming, we all saw the Trump of it coming. But sometimes you just watch a video and you're like, how is this the world that we're in? We're like, the President of France is giving an address to his nation that's like, don't worry, the French nuclear umbrella will protect the rest of Europe from Russia if it comes to it. Like, we hope that the Americans are on our side, but we will go forth to help defend Ukraine as if they're not.

[Tom Nichols]

To get across to the. To your listeners just how astonishing this is. I'm going to go into like nuclear professor mode for a minute and say, okay, you know, remember that the French created their own nuclear force because they felt cut out of the U.S. british kind of nuclear dumber it right back in the, in the 50s and they literally said one of their leaders said, we can't have our security be at the sufferance of lace Anglo Saxons, you know, like, France will have a nuclear force that is not for anybody but France. And they literally did things like they had a couple of icbm. They're gone now, but they had a couple of icbm. So they put them on the French border so that they could say to the Russians, listen, you know, no matter what you do to the rest of Europe, once you roll in here, you're going to roll over these things and we're going to fire them. And that's separate from NATO and the Americans and their little cousins, the Brits. And this has now turned everything on its head where the French, they haven't made a policy decision yet, but for France to say, okay, basically, we'll take over as the nuclear guarantor of NATO. What? Wow. And considering that the French, you know, nuclear force is relatively small, that doesn't mean, you know, nuclear war fighting or tit for tat. I mean, that basically means that the, you know, if war comes, and I shouldn't say if war comes, if Russia starts another war, that this is going to be the French, you know, responding to nuclear force with nuclear force, and it's going to be, you know, it's going to be World War iii.

[Tim Miller]

And.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah. And the idea that somehow this will exclude us, that Americans will just say, okay, we're out of it. You know, that's. That's not going to happen. That's not how it goes in the International.

[Tim Miller]

I'm sorry. Trump told Zelensky, don't tell me how to feel about this. It might not affect us. I've not read a history book. I don't know anything that happened outside of, like, my field of vision right this second. It's boring at this point to do the wither the Republicans thing, and I'm sick of doing it. And yet sometimes you have to. And I do think this is a moment where Ukrainians are dying, Ukrainian infrastructure is being attacked for no reason except for, I guess, us helping Putin pressure Ukraine to the table. And you had these guys, Roger Wicker is wearing a Ukraine pin during the confirmation hearings. Brian Fitzpatrick, Don Bacon, the guys that I'm supposed to like, the Republicans that I'm supposed to like, who are out there saying, oh, I will go to bat for Ukraine no matter what. John Thune. Nothing. Nothing. And we're not hearing anything that they're not using the power of the purse. They're not pressuring Trump. Don Bacon is Meekly criticizing him, using no. But not using any of his power. It is astonishing. These guys are just gonna let Ukrainians wither and die because of Trump. Advance's whimsical and they're doing nothing and.

[Tom Nichols]

Because they don't want to get primaried and because, you know, I keep thinking about Thom Tillis saying, well, you know, I got, I wasn't going to vote for Agseth and I got threats, you know, like they're off the record, you know, you're hearing, or unattributed, you're hearing Republicans saying things like, well, you know, I fear for my family and my staff and well, you know, I'm sorry, but if you're a senior U.S. senator and you're not going to vote your conscience because you're afraid of Donald Trump and people in your district, then go home, don't be a senator anymore. You know, I'm sorry, you know, if it's. That's. And I understand, I mean, you know, everybody who's ever criticized Trump, including two guys sitting right here, has gotten death threats. It's just part of life in the 21st century with Donald Trump. But if you're a senior US senator and you're saying, well, I couldn't really vote this way because I'm wor. Well then, you know, then come on home with the rest of us, you know, and, and just get out of that, that business. But I think the bigger issue is that they really just love being in Washington and they don't want to go home. I mean, Susan Collins, very concerned, very, very concerned. She's running again next year at 74 years old for another six year term. So this kind of incredible amount of political cowardice and careerism and opportunism that says, yeah, in my heart, I know it's wrong to let all these people die under Russian bombardments. But you know, I got a, I'm 74 and I gotta run next year and you know, and my constituents are mad at me and we're getting ugly phone calls. And so, you know, that is not the Republican Party that you And I knew 30 years ago.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no. And number one, Tom Tillis, sometimes people get mad at me when I say this, but like, I have no sympathy for their fear. Like, are you kidding me? You're not gonna do something about this? Cuz you're scared that you've gotten some empty death threats. Literally, people died, like Ukrainians died yesterday because of what Donald Trump did. And you're a fucking US Senator, so do something about it. I tweeted a version of this complaint, and somebody sent me this. This tweet by Representative Joe Wilson from South Carolina. You might remember him from. You lie Fame. Simpler times. It was retweeted by Don Bacon when I was like, yeah, so when I was like, where is Don Bacon? People are like, well, here's Don Bacon. Here's this retweet he sent. Here's what Joe Wil, War criminal. Putin launched a ballistic missile at a hotel where American UK and Ukrainian aid and health volunteers were staying. Four dead, over 30 injured in his deliberate bombing of children's cancer hospitals, maternity wards, et cetera. Putin further confirms his cowardice and contempt for life, including the lives of the Russians he sends to die in his pointless war. Great tweet, but fucking do something about it. Like, the ballistic missile hit a hotel where Americans aid workers live because your president that you supported stopped giving intelligence aid to Ukraine. So fucking do something about it. Don't tweet, call Donald Trump. Mention Donald Trump in the tweet. This is virtue signaling. This is the shit that Republicans and conservatives make fun of. That's all this is. This is virtue signaling.

[Tom Nichols]

That's the equivalent of holding up a little paddle.

[Tim Miller]

It's worse than holding up a paddle, actually.

[Tom Nichols]

Putin is bad.

[Tim Miller]

Putin is bad. Like, you don't even. At least if you held up the paddle when Donald Trump was in the room, it would have sent a message that he was speaking about Donald Trump. Like, this is just an empty critique of Putin. Great. These guys just fucking boil my blood. So much. So anyway, since we haven't talked since Friday, before we move on from this, any other thoughts? And you wrote about it, called it one of the grimmest days. Any other thoughts about that scene?

[Tom Nichols]

Well, I mean, it was a setup. I mean, it shows you what JD Vance's real role is in this administration, which is sort of chief Internet troll, you know, hey, bring JD in and let him rile up Zelensky so that Trump can then say, I couldn't do it. He said, he's disrespectful. He got. But to know that you're just being brought in to be, you know, the kid throwing spitballs from the back row is really. It was just embarrassing. I felt a little nauseous watching it, but I could feel. I felt like embarrassment by proxy. I was like, just, oh, my God, this is so. These are grown men. You know, I find myself with this administration so often just saying, these are grown men and women acting this way. Like, these are. These are adults. And it's pathetic. It's just, it really is pathetic to say to watch people that are, you know, in middle age acting like they're 15 during study hall, you know, trying to piss off all the other kids. I mean, it's really astonishing. But I think, you know, once again, I mean, I, you know, I've criticized JD Vance comprehensively, but I think it really brought home that, you know, Trump runs the country. All the lights are plugged into the Oval Office at this point, which means eventually it all breaks down because nobody can manage that way. Musk is his. His number two, you know, running rampant. And J.D. vance is just brought in to, like, be, you know, the guy who is the living embodiment of. Of snarky tweets.

[Tim Miller]

Petulance. Yeah, petulance of snarky tweets. Hi, I'm Matt.

[Leah]

And I'm Leah and we're from the Grown Up Stuff podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season, on this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes and 17% of Gen Zers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense. So can't blame them. It's really important to do your taxes right.

[Matt]

Listen to grown up stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Grown up stuff.

[Tim Miller]

My blood is still boiling from that Joe Wilson tweet. So anyone moves to someone else that we both hate and try to get.

[Tom Nichols]

You to do that, it's Lent and I'm a Christian. I don't hate anyone. But I do have severe reserv.

[Tim Miller]

Someone else that we have some very severe thoughts about. Severe Christian godly thoughts about David Sacks. I don't want history professor Tom again.

[Tom Nichols]

You tasked me, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

At least I didn't have you on on Ash Wednesday so you don't have to talk about him with the ashes on your forehead. Like Marco.

[Tom Nichols]

Greek Orthodox. We don't do that anymore.

[Tim Miller]

Pre Orthodox. You guys don't do that. Not like Marco with the biggest ashes I've ever seen on his head talking about how Donald Trump has moral authority.

[Tom Nichols]

That was significant.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I'm like, hey, I get it. I did that.

[Tom Nichols]

Vague ashes on his forehead talking about the moral clarity of Donald Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Luckily, we have confession, so, you know, so you can get the ashes, lie about Donald Trump, then go back to confession. It's a full Day. Here's the ball, Sacks on Ukraine. And you tweeted about it, but I want to get you going a little more. He writes, interesting historical analogy. The Korean War was another three year war with tremendous losses on both sides. It was largely stalemated. The American client, South Korean leader Rhee, wanted to keep fighting. Eisenhower made him sign the armistice. Great leadership. Tom wrote a dumb comparison, but naturally attractive to diligence. So please extend those remarks.

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, right. By unanimous consent, I'd like to revise and extend my remarks. You know, Sacks is just. Yeah, I mean, Sachs and Vance and they're all part of this small circle of plutocrats who have convinced themselves that they are deep thinkers, that they are, you know, deep geopolitical thinkers, when in fact they are, you know, exactly like, you know, again, the kid in your dorm at 2am who says, you know, I think, or Cliff Clavin at the end of the bar. Well, let me, let me explain to you how Ukraine works here, Diane.

[Tim Miller]

That's a good Cliff Clavin.

[Tom Nichols]

Thank you. You know, I'm from, from the area. It was such a dumb analogy. For, for one thing, thousands of Americans were fighting and dying in Korea. Hello. My snarkiness and sarcasm failed me. So let me go into a more serious. Professor.

[Tim Miller]

I also believe, just as one other thing, just throwing it out there, that there was this kind of security guarantee.

[Tom Nichols]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

As part of that stalemate, something that we weren't going to do, we were going to steal their rare earth minerals and then not give them a security guarantee. So there were some other differences.

[Tom Nichols]

Let' to all the ways in which David Sacks was wrong. For one thing, Stalin and Ma cooked up this war. And again, by the way, this was also a war that became possible, as we now know from Doc. Again, I'm sorry to be professorial, guys, but from documentary history, from Cold War documents that were released from the Soviet archives, that the thing that motivated Stalin to say yes because he had said no to an invasion of the south repeatedly. It's when the Americans left. When the Americans left the peninsula. Exactly everything that Sachs and others want us to do. That's when Stalin said, go for it. And they almost made it. They get all the way down to the Pusan perimeter. The north rolls to the very tip of South Korea. And the Americans at the expenditure of great blood and treasure for two years, not only pushed them back, but re established the status quo ante. There wasn't like, okay, we're going to have an armistice and the North Koreans are going to keep an extra 200 miles, you know? No, it went back to the 38th parallel. There was a demilitarized zone, and the Americans who had. I mean, South Korea is, you know, full of the bones of American servicemen were still there. Yeah, it's just one of those things where I'm sure it must, you know, while you were on your way to a meeting somewhere, you thought, hey, I just microdosing.

[Tim Miller]

Whatever they're doing out there these days.

[Tom Nichols]

I will not speculate. But. But you're walking down the hall and you're saying, hey, I just had a deep thought tweet. It's one of those things. It's like, have you read a book?

[Tim Miller]

I think you read one, it seems like. Or maybe an article. I want to stick with David's ball Sacks for a little bit because not only. And I was just so excited as soon as I saw the Korea tweet, I was like, I want to get Tom Nichols to start talking about Soviet documents.

[Tom Nichols]

Oh, man.

[Tim Miller]

I was like, I just want to get him going on that. But yesterday he made some more news. There's a strategic bitcoin reserve now in the country. I've been hoping for some strategic reserves of some other things, baseball cards, Mardi Gras, beads, et cetera. But we've chosen to have a strategic bitcoin reserve. David Sacks, in his tweet about this, says, it doesn't cost anything. Doesn't cost taxpayers anything. Now, that's interesting. Why does it not cost taxpayers anything? Well, because it's funded by bitcoin seized from criminals, which I think raises a few questions about what is cost and why are there so many criminals using this product that we need a strategic reserve of. But go. I wonder your thoughts on that.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, again, you know, somewhere somebody's investing and watching all this and having the time of their life.

[Tim Miller]

I have all these, like, crypto now send me stuff that, like, he was like, there's some guy, like, made 10 million on the announcement.

[Tom Nichols]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

You can't tell who it is, but they were like 50x long.

[Tom Nichols]

Anyway, again, Trump is going through and he's kind of checking boxes and paying dues, you know, of. Yeah, if you help me get in, I'll set up all these schemes. You guys can. I mean, Trump, in a way, I don't want people to attribute too much purposefulness to this, because I think what he's really doing is saying, I achieved the thing I needed to achieve. You and I talked about this on after the inauguration. I'm not in jail.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

I've defeated all my legal cases. Thank you all. You may all now indulge yourselves. Just go do what you want. And I think that's what's happening. Hey, can you give us a crypto reserve? Sure.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, it's a lunacy to have a reserve of crypto. I also love, just not to be pedantic, but like this idea that this doesn't cost anything. I mean, if the US Government is investing in an FBI and I guess we're probably not going to do this anymore, or we'll only investigate foes of the crypto guys that are close to Trump and maybe we'll investigate them and seize their Bitcoin as part of the corrupt state that we're, you know, now engaging in, where, you know, you only investigate political enemies otherwise. I mean, the President himself is on top of a crypto scam, so he's not going to be investigated. But like this notion that it doesn't cost anything, it's like, well, no, if the FBI and the DOJ put money, put taxpayer dollars into investigating criminals and then they seize their assets, like we get that money, like that's, that is. And so if instead of using the money for the federal government, we're putting it over here in a Federal Reserve in a strategic reserv, like, yeah, that does cost something actually.

[Tom Nichols]

Right. We're paying to go.

[Tim Miller]

We could have sold it and like use that money to pay down the debt or used it for whatever. You don't exactly kind of get it.

[Tom Nichols]

We're paying to get it and we're paying to administer holding it. And with all of the, you know, attendant risk and you know, for what I think this is the part where I'm supposed to say, and I hold no crypto, so, you know, I am not in this game. It's a solution to a made up problem that benefits a very, I mean this could, you could say this about a lot of Trump economic policies. A solution to a non existent problem that benefits a very small number of people very handsomely.

[Tim Miller]

Among those people, there's somebody put out a graphic of the crypto holdings in Trump's Scam Co. And 12% of the holdings were from this guy, Justin sun, who I've talked about a couple times on the podcast. He runs the Tron Exchange, he's a Chinese national. He was investigated by the Biden sec. The Trump SEC has stopped investigating him.

[Tom Nichols]

Shocking.

[Tim Miller]

And life's pretty good for him. So, you know, we've got a crypto reserve now and he's not being investigated. And he's, you know, about 12% of Trump's holdings he put in there. So not, not a bad return.

[Tom Nichols]

I want to live in that alternate universe where Democrats did all this, where George Soros was brought in to like slash the government or Bill Gates or somebody and, you know, that they set up a crypto fund with, you know, shady and shadowy, you know, figures on the left. I mean, they would be going. This would be deep state conspiracies. Biden has to go. I mean, it's just the double. I know, you know, we've been doing this for 10 years, almost 10 years about the double standard, but it really, it really is remarkable.

[Tim Miller]

Hi, I'm Matt.

[Leah]

And I'm Leah and we're from the Grown Up Stuff podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season, on this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes and 17% of Gen Zers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense. So can't blame them. It's really important to do your taxes right.

[Matt]

Listen to Grown up stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcast. Grown Up Stuff.

[Tim Miller]

We're going to keep moving through the parade of horribles here.

[Tom Nichols]

It's time to embrace the horror.

[Tim Miller]

Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense. The merit based Secretary of Defense. No DEI there at all. Just the best qualified person for the job. He gave the military until Wednesday to remove content that highlighted the diversity efforts in the ranks. There was a little problem, though, as people started deleting various things through the program.

[Tom Nichols]

They got rid of everything with the word gay, including the Enola Gay. The bomb. The plane that dropped the bomb on.

[Tim Miller]

Tom's gonna do the hosting job for me. We got rid of the Enola Gay. That is a faggoty plane.

[Tom Nichols]

That was one gay plane. That was one.

[Tim Miller]

They loved Dolly Parton on that plane. I totally tell you, they did a lot of makeup.

[Tom Nichols]

A plane flew over Japan wearing a fruit basket on its head like Carmen Miranda.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, my God.

[Tom Nichols]

After I stop having fun with you, I gotta get off the Internet and go write about this. And I don't even know where to start. I mean, it's. It's like, it's so strangely homophobic. It's a cross between the closeted colonel in American Beauty, you know, which everybody's been kind of crapping on lately. And I rewatched it the other day, and I was like, yeah, that's a pretty old homophobic trope, but also. But also an element of truth in it.

[Tim Miller]

I kind of liked American Beauty. I know. Bad take. I know that's an inappropriate take, but I like to give people my full candor. And I don't mind homophobic tropes.

[Tom Nichols]

I was okay with it until that last scene with Mina Suvari, and I'm the dad of a, you know, college age girl, and I just didn't.

[Tim Miller]

I had to hear that. But.

[Tom Nichols]

But I do love. I do love the last line of the movie, which is that I've loved every moment of my stupid life, which I thought is a kind of a nice ending. But this whole DEI thing at the Defense Department is kind of like a cross between that and Homer Simpson in the John Waters episode where Marge comes home and he says, he didn't give you gay, did he? You know, I mean, there is just this weird kind of like, scrubbing of everything that is to be. To be a little more serious about this. It's. It's. It's Stalinist.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, it's just kind of a Stalinist. You know, throw everything in the memory hole. And, you know, I. I say this as. As. Especially as a longtime federal employee, to sit through a lot of these, you know, a lot of the training and all the other stuff. I could have been a natural ally about too much DEI stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

You know what I mean? I had to take a. I had to take a morning out of my life as a federal employee while a professor came in and tried to explain to people, like, guys. I still remember these are guys, like, much older than me, you know, sitting there nodding, trying to figure out. She's like, going, okay, so this is what CIS hetero means. And I'm like, oh, for Christ's sake, you know, we really have work to do today. And, you know, okay, I get it. That's. You could say, look, we're not gonna. We're not gonna do that. We're not gonna spend money on that. But scrubbing the Defense Department archives to, like, make sure that somebody who, you know, was gay in a 1990s story or something gets, like, you know, vanished. It's panicky. It's like a gay panic, almost.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. What is even the point of deleting? So, like, what are they doing? They're just going through their website. The control effing every page. Like, control F. Gay control. Control F. Trans control. What? Control F. Queer like, what are you doing? What is the point of this?

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, it's just. It's. It's a weird kind of panic.

[Tim Miller]

Stop doing the programs. That's fine. I had to sit through one of these things the other day, and I was like, if you're a guy and a new young woman comes in on the staff, like, you're not. Are you supposed to say, nice knockers, babe? Like, yes. No. Maybe it's like, no, that would be sexual harassment. It's just like, who is this for?

[Tom Nichols]

That's a red light. The red yellow.

[Tim Miller]

Who is this training for? Like, people that are morons. Like, anybody that doesn't know this, like, probably shouldn't have had the job in the first place. I guess there should have maybe been a better vetting. I. So whatever. Like, yeah, they're stupid shit, you know, and change some of the stuff. Like, that's fine. But, like, this is ridiculous and Stalinist.

[Tom Nichols]

That's the thing. There's a Stalinism to it. I mean, again, I could have, you know, if Hegseth had had a quick press conference and said, listen, these things cost X dollars a year. We're not bringing any more guest speakers to explain to, you know, old retired colonels what it means to be cis. Fine.

[Tim Miller]

Right?

[Tom Nichols]

Fine. That was a waste of taxpayer money. I mean, I'm not going to support Pete Hegseth, but I would have nodded and said, okay, I guess, you know, you could save a few bucks there. This is different. This is. This is something really different. And almost like it's a larger point. It shows you that MAGA world thinks of itself as this embattled minority. Even though they control everything right now, they still think of themselves as, like, Christians hiding in the catacombs, you know, drawing fish symbols on doors. And so while they have the power, they're going to, you know, they're going to set the timeline right. You know what I mean? Like, if only we can go back to 1989, the last time we had a real president, and say, okay, we're going to just scrub the timeline so none of this happened, and all the. All the gay and trans soldiers will go away and everything will be okay again, and it'll be just like when I was a kid in 1966.

[Tim Miller]

Two thoughts on that. One is just on the serious. We can make fun of the stuff, but on the serious side, I haven't confirmed this, but there's no reason to believe it's not true. I received a note from a reader about a couple of soldiers that they are aware of that have been kicked out because of gender dysphoria or whatever. People that had done nothing else. That is fucking outrageous. For a draft dodging, makeup wearing bone spurs TV star to kick people that were voluntarily serving the military out for no reason. It's fucking outrageous and it's maddening. And your point on the embattled minority? It's funny. I was watching this video, this kind of viral video that was going around. It's a guy in a MAGA hat at Disney World. He's walking around, he's by himself at Disney World. And he looks. He's kind of a weird looking guy. He's got his phone up and he's like videotaping everybody that walks by him and people are giving him a look. And the point of this is this embattled minority thing. Look at me. I'm so brave. I went into the lion's den and wore this hat and people are giving me weird looks. And it's kind of like, well, for starters, you guys won. So you have a majority of the people. Maybe not a majority of the country or maybe not plurality, a bare plurality of the people. So there are going to be a lot of people that agree with you. And number two, maybe these people are fucking looking at you because you're at a children's park by yourself filming people, filming strangers. I think it might be your behavior, not your hat, or maybe a little bit of both.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, even though I live in blue New England, you know, we. This is. We're a divided state. You know, it's like 60, 40, and there is always this kind of, you know, I dare you to say something. Look, if, you know, like, why, like the guys in the local supermarket here, you know, having these really loud conversations about John, it's like, all right, I guess I have to say something. Can you move so I can get the butter? Can you just. But there is this. There's almost this. This thirst for attention and engagement. These performative stunts that are almost like, pay attention to me, engage with me, listen to me. I mean, that's really unhealthy. No matter what your politics are, you shouldn't be going to the grocery store to exhibit your politics. And you and I, when we were concerned, we used to criticize the left about doing this. And rightly so. Yeah, you know, the people standing and saying, I'm buying the, you know, sustainable stuff that wasn't, you know, that was made by campesinos. You know, I mean, just, just buy your fucking coffee and go home, will you? You know.

[Tim Miller]

Hi, I'm Matt.

[Leah]

And I'm Leah and we're from the Grown Up Stuff podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season. On this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes and 17% of Gen Zers believe that you could write off any expense as a business expense. So can't blame them. It's really important to do your taxes right.

[Matt]

Listen to Grown up stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

[Tim Miller]

Let's talk about the economy. We had a jobs report this morning. It was mid, you know, it was a little short on jobs.

[Tom Nichols]

Joe Biden's fault.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, things ticked up a little bit. Wasn't, wasn't great, wasn't horrible. But a lot of bad signs on the economy. I mean, the stock market has been tanking. There have been some other signs that there's bad jobs news to come ahead. We'll see consumer confidence reports, very bad. Atlanta Fed projections, very bad. The treasury secretary yesterday said that cheap goods are not part of the American dream. I think it might be time for somebody to meet some real Americans. The rich hedge fund guy, maybe some media training.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, you know, like, wow, Mr. Secretary, cheap goods. Let me take you to a magical place that you and I will go. It's called Walmart.

[Tim Miller]

Walmart. And that is central to the American dream.

[Tom Nichols]

Actually, we are going to go over to the TV section, you know, and then we're going to go over to Best Buy and maybe stop, you know, at an Aldi. I mean, it was just, it was so tone deaf. It was exactly the kind of thing a rich guy says on a private. People don't care about cheap goods. No, you don't care about cheap goods.

[Tim Miller]

People are just looking to pull themselves up in the dude steps and get a good job. And I'm for all that. But like, hey, there's a lot of people out there that actually don't have the ambition or desire to become a rich guy with a house on Sullivan's Island. All right, like, and they do. Cheap goods are kind of important for them.

[Tom Nichols]

And they would like a 65 inch TV. That's their one thing in life that they're going to put in the man cave.

[Tim Miller]

That's very American, actually.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, but it's Joe Biden's fault. I heard this was just before we, we started today, Kevin Hassett was on. And he's like, yeah, these jobs numbers, no, they're good because they represent. I mean, he. Kevin Hassett is really a kind of, you know, that genial, smiling ability to just spin anything where he said, well, yeah, there was. But, you know, these were basically jobs that were created by Joe Biden and their government jobs. So really, the jobs report is just us. I mean, I'm not making this up. Right. It's just us correcting the Joe Biden government jobs. Boom.

[Tim Miller]

Good luck with that.

[Tom Nichols]

Again, you know, you're going to have people in a lot of red parts of the country saying, I don't recall Joe Biden giving me this job that I'm losing. And I think with the market going up and down again, the rationalizations are incredible. Oh, well, buy the disc. You know, it's a good time to buy. Okay. But if you're retired, it's not a good time to withdraw and say, I don't know, eat or warm your home with what. What's in your retirement. It is a remarkable inability to ever criticize Donald Trump or even to say what you just said in a kind of measured way that, you know, the jobs report was kind of meh. But there are some bad signs, but it's not horrible. But there's some clouds on the horizon. And instead you just get, the leader is good, the leader is great. We surrender our will.

[Tim Miller]

As of this date, it's totally incoherent. You have the tariffs, so on Monday, they're on on Tuesday, they might be off on Wednesday, they're on on Thursday. It's like, well, we're going to take them off for things that are already in the trade deal that some idiot me signed like five years ago. And then it's like, well, but they might be back on in April and they might be lower. But then I saw a report today where they indicated they might be higher. 25% might be too low.

[Tom Nichols]

And you just got at something, Tim, which is, all of this is happening. We talk about memory holes and Stalinism. All of this is happening as if Donald Trump had never been president.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right.

[Tom Nichols]

It's like, I'm finally going to make America great and end this terrible situation where you look familiar. You know, weren't you the. And, you know, we've got to do something with this terrible deal with Mexico. Who signed it?

[Tim Miller]

It's incoherent. Who knows. Who can speculate how long it'll last or for whatever. But it doesn't feel Sustainable. Any sentient person has to look at this and just be like, what are we doing? It's like, you're going to put on tariffs because it's going to bring about a golden age. But now the car manufacturers are pissed, we'll take the cars off and then it's like the farmers are pissed. So it's like, oh, the potash, the potash. We're going to do a carve out for the potash. Like, what? How do you even. You can't defend it without sounding like an idiot, because there's no rationale to it. It's just random, arbitrary President, the king Fiat, and like, whatever he says is good, right?

[Tom Nichols]

You can't defend it without finding yourself saying things like, americans don't care about cheap goods, right? As with Ukraine, as with all the other things we've been talking about. You can't defend it without completely sort of staring into the middle distance while your body and your mind, where your mind dissociates from your body like an accident victim and you end up having to say things that you know are just bonkers. I agree with you, but I disagree with you. I agree with you. This is unsustainable. In a, In a normal world, in the first Trump term, we would say these things are unsustainable. And sure enough, you know, Tillerson or Mattis or even Mnuchin or whoever would kind of say, all right, all right, you know, we got it. But this bunch, this is just kind of a sort of, you know, looting the ship of state and pointing out that the masts are breaking and the ship is listing and we're taking on water. They're like, look, we don't care. We're just going to take as much stuff out of the hold as we can, jump into little lifeboats and paddle away. And, you know, all the circuit breakers on this stuff are gone. And ironically, and I know, you know, people really enjoy the schadenfreude about this, but these are our fellow citizens, you know, like the policies or not. These are our brothers and sisters as American citizens. The people that are gonna really pay the price for this are ordinary Americans, and most of them are gonna be Trump voters. It just astonishes me how much he punishes his own voters and convinces them that they like it.

[Tim Miller]

I totally agree with that. And it sounds like you're with me. And I just. Who knows? I don't have a crystal ball. I'm not an economist, but I just. Looking at the tea leaves, like, I. It's like it Seems like we're in a. We're going to be in a downward spiral here. I just, it seems bad. Like, I don't, I don't know how he gets out of it. And my guess is the worst it gets. The worst he gets like, you know, just like during copa.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, normally he pays attention to the markets, but in part because he had to pay attention to the markets because that was. He wanted to get reelected. Right now he doesn't have to care. I mean, now it's am I doing good? Are my enemies? Are my enemies yowling? Remember, you know this, Tim, the one rule in MAGA world that the test of a policy being good or bad is how loudly someone else yells about it, that that's all they care about.

[Tim Miller]

If David French is mad about it, then that means it's a conservative policy. That's the new rules. Hi, I'm Matt.

[Leah]

And I'm Leah and we're from the Grown Up Stuff podcast.

[Matt]

And just in time for tax season, on this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

[Lisa Green Lewis]

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes and 17% of Gen Zers believe that you could write off any expense as a business expense. So can't blame them. It's really important to do your taxes right.

[Matt]

Listen to Grown up stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts.

[Tim Miller]

You mentioned about how, you know, the area where you disagreed with me slightly is just about like, there could be constraints. If we were in normal times, we might not be in normal times. And you wrote for the Atlantic this week about how the Democrats are acting like things are too normal.

[Tom Nichols]

Normal.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. I think it's sometimes hard to figure out exactly what to do. I find myself in this situation where I'm like, the Democrats should be out there more and trying new things and be trying to reach people in different ways. And then they do stuff. And I was like, eh, maybe not that. So I don't know. So maybe normal is better than abnormal. But what do you say normal is better than?

[Tom Nichols]

Tiktoks of female congressmen in fighting stances, which.

[Tim Miller]

It was a good try. That one was a good try for me.

[Tom Nichols]

No, no, no, no. I was cringing. I felt my cheeks get warm and embarrassment at that point.

[Tim Miller]

We don't want that.

[Tom Nichols]

It was bad, Tim. And again, it's bad. It's not just cringy. It's evidence of a kind of unseriousness. Like, that's the kind of TikTok you put out when a normal Republican president says, I'm going to lower the minimum, the marginal tax rate from 37.9 to 30.

[Tim Miller]

It's like, we're gonna fight.

[Tom Nichols]

All right, we're gonna fight that. You know what I said? And I took some static, I took some grief from Democrats. Look, Senator Slotkin gave a very good speech. It was clear, it was direct, but it was a very 2017 speech. And when I think about Democrats, you know, getting more into fighting Trump, they really should ask, always take an opportunity to put it out there, to say, we're, you know, fighting for working families, don't want to give tax cuts to plutocrats. Did you really vote to have Kash Patel run the FBI? Yes. In MAGA world, we know you did, but the voters we're talking to. Did you really vote for the. Did you really vote for. To have the President of the United States publicly draw the link from autism to vaccines and put Bobby Kennedy in charge of it at hhs? Really? You have children.

[Tim Miller]

You voted for measles.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, instead of saying, well, we have a different vision for jobs, for the future, is just. It doesn't move anything. It does in 1998. It does in 2007. It does not do it now.

[Tim Miller]

So I like to be constructive in these cases. I hear you. It's easy to nitpick. What do you want? What do you want from them, the Democratic elected leaders?

[Tom Nichols]

I am always loath to give. I'm not a Democrat, so I can't advise the Democratic Party. But no more tiktoks and kind of seriousness about both the policy issues, because part of the problem is that every time you challenge Trump on a policy issue, you realize that Trump doesn't care about policy. So you end up sounding like a wonk, and he ends up sounding entertaining. One of the things that I've got on my to do list is to talk at some point about Trump's missile defense plans. You know, which sound great. Right? But they're not. If you want to talk about cutting government spending, we're not going to create a golden dome over America. It's not. We're not going to. It'll be billions and billions of dollars to defense contractors. It's not going to go anywhere. I worked for a defense contractor that worked on the original Star wars plan. I know something of those days. I guess it's Always a tough thing to tell Democrats that they should have more unified messaging because they're Democrats, and I don't know what the legislative response is, but to act like an Article 1 power and to say, no, we're not going to allow, you know, we're going to put in bills even if they die every time. Time that they have to keep putting them out there and getting out and talking to the American people about the scary stuff. And I think they're loath to do that because Trump has been so effective at providing his surrogates with sneering, dismissive talking points. Say, listen, did you really vote to let Donald Trump leave the Ukrainian people defenseless? And then what they hear on Fox or wherever is, Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia. Oh, it's Russia, Russia, Russia. You know, did you really vote for tariffs? And, you know, then it's again, this kind of Jedi mind trick of, well, it's not really tariffs, it's equality, it's fairness. And I think Democrats have just kind of thrown up their arms now. I'll say one last thing about this and get off that soapbox. Tim, there is a good argument, and I made it myself. Let them drive the car off the cliff.

[Tim Miller]

Let him fuck everything up.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, just bring the pain. Let people experience what tariffs really do. I wrote this in his first term. I said, if people really want to trade more and they want to touch that hot stove, then let's get on with it and get it over with.

[Tim Miller]

The Alyssa Slotkin strategy could work if you're just basing it on him fucking everything up. And that's not a terrible bet in the meantime. I just want more righteous anger. That's just what I keep saying. I just want more righteous anger. Like, righteous anger. Not silliness, not goofiness, but righteous anger.

[Tom Nichols]

Cold and clear and sharp as a knife instead of kooky tiktoks and ping pong paddles. I guess that's the most you can hope for.

[Tim Miller]

I'm going to leave people with some schadenfreude they'll enjoy. Elon had a pretty bad day yesterday. I just want to go tick through it. The Tesla Stock is down 5.6% on Thursday, 29% for the month. He was demoted. Trump had to have a meeting where he was like, you don't get to fire people anymore. Actually, the cabinet secretaries do. We'll see if that holds.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, we'll see if that holds.

[Tim Miller]

Not really a great sign, though. I guess it was the first sign that, like, maybe that there will be a leash put on here at some point. They had a second failure in a row for SpaceX Starship. There was a spectacular shower of debris on the test flight and this was kind of a double whammy for him because I think he's also trying to redo the faa, and the FAA had to halt flights to several Florida airports to avoid the debris. He's being tweeted at by multiple baby mamas. As I mentioned to James Carville on Tuesday, I was at a parade on Monday where all the cybertrucks were getting pelted with beads. So, you know, I don't know.

[Tom Nichols]

And he had a French senator call him a buffoon on ketamine, which was also kind of a. Put a little cherise on the top.

[Tim Miller]

That was the righteous anger I've been looking for. I watched that speech. That speech was awesome. So, you know, I mean, obviously he's still the richest guy in the world, like, whatever, but there's certainly some signs that maybe he's bit off a little more than he can chew.

[Tom Nichols]

And being the richest guy in the world is not what's important to him anymore. I mean, that's the thing, you know, it's like Tesla could, could crash. SpaceX could and did blow up again. It doesn't matter to him. He is fine. I think you see this. To go back to him and Sachs and Teal and the others, it's like, look, we're not the rich nerds anymore. We're important. We matter. We're, we have power. I was watching an interview with Warren Buffett the other day, which was so reassuringly normal, you know, but unlike somebody like Buffett, you know, for them the money was never enough. It's about affirmation and self actualization. And I don't think it matters to Musk any. I mean, I don't know the man, but I don't think it matters to him very much anymore. If Tesla tanks or, you know, SpaceX doesn't work, eventually it's going to matter.

[Tim Miller]

To his shareholders and eventually he's going to have to get called back to the office.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, I guess he could, and he could say, fine, you know, I quit, I'm still there. I mean, all of this could go away and, and it's still like, Jeff Bezos, you know, everything could go wrong at the Washington Post. That's a rounding error in his pocket at this point. You know, all of these guys are fantastically wealthy. I'm telling you, they've, to quote our friend Bill Kristol, you know, this level of wealth is starting to bring out my inner socialist, I think he says.

[Tim Miller]

Democratic socialists, to be fair to Bill Kristol, but he might be on the way to full.

[Tom Nichols]

We're going to have to go check the quote. But, I mean, you know, but this is an object lesson. And what happens when you are so fantastically wealthy beyond, you know, any comprehension in a normal capitalist economy that you become ungovernable? You say, I don't, you know, do whatever you want. I don't care. I'll go buy an island. I'll go. I'll be Mark Zuckerberg. I'll build a bunker somewhere. I don't know how you reason with folks like that other than to, again, take legal and legislative steps to basically curtail their power and say, no, the government is not your actual. I've been thinking about this. I'm going to totally jump tracks. I'm thinking about this because I've been watching a show called Paradise. Have you been watching it?

[Tim Miller]

No.

[Tom Nichols]

All right. I won't ruin it for you. It's what happens when multi gazillionaires go completely nuts. And it's a fantastic series. So if anybody out there hasn't watched it yet, the first season is now over.

[Tim Miller]

Can you just leave us with any hope? Can gazillionaires eventually suffer the consequences of their actions? Is there any hope in the show?

[Tom Nichols]

It depends on what you mean by suffer financially. No, No. I think what Musk and the others really fear more than anything is ridicule. You know, like, that's why they're in this game.

[Tim Miller]

This is the ridicule, though. I mean, if the spaceship's breaking up and that your car company is imploding and you have to report to little Marco now before you can fire people, you know, eventually the ridicules can pile up. This is my hope. Don't take this from me.

[Tom Nichols]

I'm not. Dude, I'm not taking it away from you. And I actually think that there is a. I think that there are several people in this administration who are headed for some kind of major emotional break sooner rather than later, because I think they're all in over their heads and working at an unsustainable pace beyond their already fairly limited talents. How's that?

[Tim Miller]

We can only pray. That was a great way to end. Thank you. Tom Nichols, everybody. Enjoy your weekend. We'll be back here. Actually, Bill Kristol, I forget what he's doing on Monday. He's doing something. So I have a new guest for the Monday show, but me and Bill are gonna be hanging out on Substack Sunday afternoon. So if you can't wait till Monday for me, you can come on over to the Bulwark Substack on Sunday afternoon, get a little bit of Tim and Bill and Tom. You'll be back in six weeks. Who knows what horrors will await us then?

[Tom Nichols]

I will see you in some fresh hell next month.

[Tim Miller]

Sounds good, Tom Nichols. Thanks so much, everybody else. We'll see you soon. Peace.

[Tom Nichols]

You should have stayed at home yesterday oh, words can describe the feeling and the way you lied these games you play they're gonna end in more than tears someday oh, no, Lucky, it shouldn't have to end this way it's 8:15 and that's the time that it's always been we got your message on the radio. Conditions normal and you're coming home I know. L gave his mother proud of little boy today oh, this kiss you give it's never gonna fade away.

[Tim Miller]

The Bullork podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.