The Bulwark Podcast: Tom Nichols – Don't Descend into Darkness
Released on December 17, 2024

Introduction

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in an in-depth conversation with Professor Emeritus Tom Nichols, a respected staff writer at The Atlantic and author of several noteworthy books, including The Death of Expertise. The discussion spans a range of critical topics, from the implications of Democratic Congressman Jared Moskowitz declining a potential FEMA director position under the Trump administration to the pervasive influence of tech oligarchs in American politics.

1. Jared Moskowitz and the FEMA Nomination

(00:00 – 02:15)

Tim Miller opens the discussion by addressing recent political developments involving Congressman Jared Moskowitz, a Democrat from Florida. Speculation had surrounded Moskowitz being appointed as FEMA director in the Trump administration. However, Moskowitz publicly declined the role, choosing instead to run for re-election, an action Miller commends for its strategic significance.

Notable Quote:

"Moskowitz tweeted that he is not going to be interested in that job and that he'll be running for reelection as a Democrat in Florida, something that I commend him for."
— Tim Miller [00:00]

Miller emphasizes the broader implications of this decision, highlighting the strategic questions it raises about how Democrats and anti-Trump Republicans should engage with the current administration.

2. Tom Nichols' European Sojourn and Global Perspectives

(02:15 – 05:30)

Tom Nichols shares his recent travels through Europe—visiting cities like London, Paris, Brussels, and Prague—with his wife. The purpose was to detach from the overwhelming American political climate post-election. Nichols notes a significant difference between American self-absorption in politics and the more geopolitically aware atmosphere in Europe.

Notable Quote:

"I just found myself and them with that sort of same vibe we all have over here of like, I don't know, you can't even sum it up in a word. It's more like, you know, this sort of... this kind of sigh of exhaustion."
— Tom Nichols [03:13]

He reflects on the normalization of turbulent political nominations and the general sense of exhaustion and acceptance among Americans regarding the Trump administration.

3. Trump Administration's Cabinet Nominations

(05:30 – 12:04)

The conversation shifts to the Trump administration's cabinet picks, which Nichols criticizes as being ill-suited and seemingly comedic. He expresses surprise at the lack of serious, knowledgeable candidates among nominees like Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense and Tulsi Gabbard as DNI.

Notable Quote:

"Pete Hegseth comes in, right? Because he's the Secretary of Defense now... it's like, just astonished that how quickly we've normalized saying things like defense Secretary nominee Pete Hegseth, as if that's like, a thing you would say outside of a parody."
— Tom Nichols [06:25]

Nichols warns against preemptive despair, urging listeners to recognize that while the current state is dire, proactive efforts can still mitigate damage and influence future political landscapes positively.

4. Balancing Optimism and Pessimism in Politics

(12:04 – 19:42)

Miller probes further into Nichols' assessment of the political climate, especially following his Europe trip. Nichols shares a nuanced perspective, balancing a measure of optimism with a recognition of the pervasive challenges. He underscores the resilience of American democratic values despite the current turmoil.

Notable Quote:

"Patriotism is an act of will. I still love this country. I love what it stands for."
— Tom Nichols [12:04]

Nichols reminisces about past elections, comparing the existential dread today with previous political shifts, and emphasizes the importance of maintaining faith in America's foundational principles.

5. The Influence of Tech Oligarchs in American Politics

(23:41 – 35:13)

A significant portion of the episode delves into the growing power of tech oligarchs like Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, and Marc Andreessen. Nichols critiques their centralization of power and the problematic intersections between their business ventures and political influence.

Notable Quote:

"These guys have this sense that I am fantastically wealthy, and somehow that hasn't bought me the respect that I crave in all of these areas. And the one place where I can really get it is in the place where expertise and knowledge just don't matter. Which is going to be the Trump administration."
— Tom Nichols [35:13]

The discussion highlights Zuckerberg’s controversial appearance at Mar-a-Lago [29:52], where he stood with January 6th prisoners during a rendition of the national anthem, symbolizing the blurred lines between tech leaders and political hegemony.

6. AI Regulation and Tech Industry Influence

(37:18 – 43:41)

The podcast addresses alarming claims from a conversation involving Marc Andreessen, who allegedly discussed stringent government control over AI development, mirroring Cold War-era secrecy. Nichols debunks the feasibility of such control, emphasizing the decentralized nature of AI knowledge.

Notable Quote:

"The fact that Matt Gaetz got turfed so fast should tell you something... but also then I thought, what do you gain from this?"
— Tom Nichols [25:55]

Nichols criticizes the unrealistic expectations of tech leaders regarding government intervention in AI, highlighting a fundamental misunderstanding of technological advancements.

7. Journalism, Global Politics, and Misinformation

(45:02 – 47:54)

Nichols praises journalists like Clarissa Ward for their brave reporting amidst geopolitical chaos but also acknowledges the challenges they face, including misinformation and the high-stakes environment of conflict zones.

Notable Quote:

"People should understand how epical this is. I mean, the Assad family has been in charge of Syria since I was a boy."
— Tom Nichols [45:54]

He underscores the importance of supporting frontline journalists who navigate dangerous and rapidly evolving situations to bring accurate information to the public.

8. The Epidemic of Loneliness and Online Radicalization

(47:54 – 50:29)

Addressing a tragic school shooting influenced by online radicalization, Nichols identifies loneliness and internet-induced isolation as critical factors fueling extremist behavior. He laments the transformation of the internet from a tool of connection to a breeding ground for extremist ideologies.

Notable Quote:

"The Internet is a giant bad neighborhood that you can wander around in if you don't. If you just have too much time on your hands and it'll just lead you into trouble."
— Tom Nichols [48:26]

Nichols advocates for real-world connections and community engagement as antidotes to the isolating and radicalizing effects of excessive internet use.

9. Concluding Thoughts and Holiday Reflections

(50:29 – 56:34)

The episode wraps up with a lighter discussion on favorite Christmas playlists, where Tim and Tom share their differing tastes in holiday music, symbolizing generational and personal differences. They exchange humorous jabs about each other's playlists, ending on a festive note despite the heavy topics discussed.

Notable Quote:

"It's only bangers. All right?"
— Tom Nichols [55:43]

The conversation concludes with well-wishes for the holiday season and a hopeful outlook for the new year, emphasizing the importance of maintaining personal connections and traditions amid challenging times.

Key Takeaways:

• Strategic Political Decisions: Jared Moskowitz’s decision to decline the FEMA director role highlights the intricate balance Democrats must maintain in opposing the Trump administration without jeopardizing key legislative seats.

• Global vs. Domestic Focus: Nichols' experiences in Europe underscore the contrast between American political self-absorption and the broader, more geopolitically aware perspectives prevalent among European allies.

• Problematic Cabinet Nominations: The Trump administration’s cabinet picks are criticized for lacking depth and appearing as caricatures, raising concerns about the administration's competence and the future of American governance.

• Tech Oligarchs' Power: The increasing influence of tech billionaires like Zuckerberg and Musk poses significant challenges to traditional democratic processes and raises questions about the intersection of technology and politics.

• AI Regulation Concerns: Discussions about government overreach in AI development reflect broader fears about the loss of innovation and increased control over emerging technologies.

• Loneliness and Radicalization: The link between internet-induced isolation and the rise in extremist behavior points to a societal crisis that needs addressing through community-building and real-world engagement.

• Resilience and Hope: Despite the overwhelming challenges, maintaining personal connections, fostering community, and upholding democratic values remain essential for navigating the current political landscape.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Moskowitz tweeted that he is not going to be interested in that job and that he'll be running for reelection as a Democrat in Florida, something that I commend him for."
  — Tim Miller [00:00]

• "I just found myself and them with that sort of same vibe we all have over here of like, I don't know, you can't even sum it up in a word."
  — Tom Nichols [03:13]

• "Patriotism is an act of will. I still love this country. I love what it stands for."
  — Tom Nichols [12:04]

• "These guys have this sense that I am fantastically wealthy, and somehow that hasn't bought me the respect that I crave in all of these areas."
  — Tom Nichols [35:13]

• "The Internet is a giant bad neighborhood that you can wander around in if you don't."
  — Tom Nichols [48:26]

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast provides a comprehensive exploration of the current American political climate, the influence of tech oligarchs, and the societal issues exacerbated by the internet. Tom Nichols delivers a poignant analysis, urging listeners to remain engaged, foster real-world connections, and uphold the foundational values of American democracy to navigate these turbulent times.