Tom Nichols: This Is What They Want

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: Tom Nichols – "This Is What They Want"

Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Tom Nichols, Professor Emeritus at the Naval War College, Staff Writer at The Atlantic, Author of The Atlantic Daily Newsletter
Episode Title: This Is What They Want

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1. Introduction and Current Political Climate [00:38 – 02:30]

Tim Miller opens the episode by welcoming Tom Nichols, emphasizing the camaraderie needed to navigate the current political turmoil. He poses an urgent question about the direction the country is heading under the current administration.

Notable Quote:

"What we should do is be on a beach somewhere right now, just with a couple of Mai Tais."
— Tom Nichols [00:58]

Nichols acknowledges the frustration but underscores the importance of resilience: facing another four years by holding the administration accountable without succumbing to despair.

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2. The 2024 Election and Voter Sentiment [02:30 – 10:59]

The discussion delves into Nichols' recent article for The Atlantic, where he asserts that Trump voters essentially "got what they wanted" in the previous election. He explores the reasons behind this outcome, suggesting that the core issues driving voters towards Trump were not adequately addressed by the Democrats.

Notable Quotes:

"This is what they want. Okay, so we're all strapped into the same rocket and we're just going to have to deal with."
— Tom Nichols [01:50]

"I'm not gonna let the United States off the hook. First of all, we're supposed to be smarter than that."
— Tom Nichols [02:30]

Nichols argues that the Democratic Party failed to connect with a significant portion of the electorate, particularly those who felt alienated by issues like economic struggles and cultural changes. He emphasizes that Trump capitalized on these sentiments by presenting himself as a relatable, if unconventional, leader.

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3. Democratic Strategies and Communication Breakdown [10:59 – 24:52]

Miller and Nichols critically examine the Democratic Party's approach in addressing the concerns of the working class and other marginalized groups. They argue that Democrats often focus on identity politics and niche issues, neglecting broader economic and societal concerns that resonate with a larger voter base.

Notable Quotes:

"If you have 42% of the country that their impression of you is that you think that they're racist and stupid and idiots... then you're already starting from a pretty low base."
— Tim Miller [05:57]

"The Democrats are constantly getting these kinds of hostage letters from various constituencies saying, remember us or this section of the vote gets thrown in the river."
— Tom Nichols [22:59]

Nichols highlights the irony that Republicans often express resentment towards the rural poor, while Democrats are perceived as indifferent to their struggles. He criticizes the Democratic focus on specific issues like transgender rights, arguing that it alienates voters who prioritize economic stability and job security.

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4. The Role of Media and Public Perception [24:52 – 37:11]

The conversation shifts to the influence of media narratives on public perception. Nichols points out the disparity in how Trump and Biden are covered, suggesting that Trump's unconventional communication style receives disproportionate attention compared to Biden's more traditional approach.

Notable Quotes:

"The economic experts were like, of course... and good policy created a soft landing."
— Tom Nichols [11:03]

"But on the other hand, a lot of those folks live in such an epistemic bubble at some point."
— Tom Nichols [14:57]

They discuss how media portrayal can shape electoral outcomes, with Trump benefiting from widespread coverage that keeps him in the public eye, while Biden's policies may not receive the same level of scrutiny or praise.

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5. Addressing Polarization and Finding Common Ground [37:11 – 44:58]

Miller and Nichols explore strategies to bridge the deepening political divide. They advocate for Democrats to return to grassroots engagement, communicating directly with voters in their communities rather than relying solely on policy papers and high-level rhetoric.

Notable Quotes:

"You can talk to people and realize that not everybody went to grad school and not everybody is on Twitter."
— Tom Nichols [24:53]

"We are in an epistemic bubble, I am building one from the inside out."
— Tim Miller [41:32]

Nichols emphasizes the importance of empathy and genuine interaction, suggesting that Democrats need to better understand and address the everyday concerns of ordinary Americans to regain trust and support.

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6. Responding to External Influences and Future Outlook [44:58 – 46:10]

The dialogue touches upon external threats and ideological battles, referencing Alexander Dugin’s views and the global context in which American politics operates. Nichols cautions against overreacting to extreme viewpoints but acknowledges the need to remain vigilant against authoritarian influences.

Notable Quotes:

"Dugin is a nut, and even Putin has kind of held him at arm's length on occasion."
— Tom Nichols [44:09]

"The fight ahead is really not about conservatism and progressivism or whatever. It's the survival of the liberal order."
— Tom Nichols [45:15]

They conclude with a recognition of America's resilience but stress that preserving democracy requires ongoing effort and strategic engagement.

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7. Conclusion and Final Thoughts [46:10 – End]

As the conversation wraps up, Nichols and Miller reflect on the challenges ahead, urging listeners to remain informed and involved without falling into despair. They advocate for constructive actions like supporting quality journalism and participating in local governance.

Notable Quotes:

"Take care, Tim."
— Tom Nichols [46:08]

"We've learned America's resilience. Maybe people need to get it good and hard so that we can get back to an equilibrium."
— Tim Miller [40:27]

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Key Takeaways

• Voter Alignment: Trump effectively captured voter discontent by addressing economic and cultural anxieties that Democrats overlooked.
• Democratic Disconnect: The Democratic Party needs to engage more directly with the working class and address broader economic concerns to rebuild trust.
• Media Influence: Media coverage plays a significant role in shaping public perception, often favoring high-profile figures like Trump over policy-focused leaders.
• Grassroots Engagement: Reconnecting with voters through genuine, community-based interactions is crucial for Democratic resurgence.
• Resilience and Vigilance: Preserving democracy requires both resilience in the face of political challenges and vigilance against authoritarian influences.

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Final Remarks

Tom Nichols provides a sobering yet insightful analysis of the current American political landscape, emphasizing the need for strategic engagement and empathy to bridge the widening political divide. Tim Miller and Nichols collectively underscore the importance of resilience, informed participation, and genuine communication in safeguarding liberal democracy.

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Note: Timestamps correspond to the points in the provided transcript and are included to contextualize the quoted segments.

Transcript

[Tom Nichols]

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We're bringing in friends and fam this week. That's the only way to deal with it. So I've got Tom Nichols, professor emeritus at the Naval War College. He's staff writer at the Atlantic and author of the Atlantic Daily Newsletter. Tom, what should we do? What do you want to say? What happens?

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, what we should do is be on a beach somewhere right now, just with a couple of Mai Tais. But what do we do? You get up in the morning and you square your shoulders and take a deep breath and say, okay, four more years of this crazy shit. And I think as long as he doesn't bumble us into World War three, we just kind of get up and do the work every day, try to hold this administration to account the way we would and criticize and discuss and write about them the way we would look, Tim, the saddest part, American people made their decision and 51% of the American people made their decision. This is what they want. Okay, so we're all strapped into the same rocket and we're just going to have to deal with. It's all we can do.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, they're going to get a good and hard as many people have sent me lately at the HL Mencken.

[Tom Nichols]

They just don't believe that that stove is hot and they've decided to touch it three or four or five or ten more times.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I want to talk in a little bit more detail about what actually the next steps look like practically, but I want to go back first. So you wrote for the Atlantic this week saying Trump voters got what they wanted. But in the article you kind of talk about the various explanations and the various excuses and recriminations that are happening. And I guess you have a more, you have a different view. Why don't you talk about what you think?

[Tom Nichols]

Well, first of all, as you know, I was never part of the yeah, she's going to make it chorus. I said I hope she makes it. She's running a good campaign, doing the right things. She's not taking Trump's bait She's doing all the stuff she needed to do. But I always had this kind of sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that if Trump could win the Republican nomination and this country had not shunned him and driven him out of the public space, then he was going to win. Biden couldn't have won. Let's get that. Let's just stop all that right now. There's no way Joe Biden had the energy for the kind of schedule she was on. I don't understand a lot of the criticisms of the Biden first term. People say, well, she should have run away from the Biden record. His first term was awful. Maybe it's the former Republican man. I keep. I keep looking at his first term and going, that was a pretty good term. That's a term. That's a term most people would have run on, you know, hands down. Oh, she's got to talk about the economy because people are suffering with, you know, full employment and 2 1/2% inflation. I just couldn't get my arms around what she was supposed to do there. So I think a lot of the recrimination and the what ifs, and, you know, I think he was just going to win because. And this is the part that's hard to say, Tim, she was going to win because that's who most of us are now. You know, that millions of people have become. They're not accepting of Donald Trump. They have become like Donald Trump. They. They identify with him, and that means that he was just going to win. But now, with that said, I think if the Democrats are having a come to Jesus moment about the baggage that she had to carry with her, some of which she packed herself earlier in her career, you know, then fine, have that argument, you know, about how far left. Just this morning, before you and I started talking, I saw the numbers for Dearborn, Michigan. Okay. You're going to have that kind of, you know, loss in Dearborn. First of all, I think the tweet was from Jim Manley, who basically said to the Arab voters of Dearborn, good luck now that you've got Trump and Netanyahu. Okay, I guess, you know, wow, you showed them. But, you know, if you're gonna lose a place like Dearborn, place that you used to win handily, and you wanna have a discussion about whether college students ought to be, you know, driving big chunks of the Democratic Party, great, have that conversation. But I don't think it was gonna matter that much in 2024. I think the American people, a lot of The American people, especially in the swing states, just said, still believe presidents have the magical ability to do things. And Trump especially plays into that. Right. You know, I'll make gas cheaper. How, you know, Jedi mind trick. I just can because I'm, I'm magic because I'm Superman. But also the other thing that he did is he said I want basically. And I take a lot of static about this. He said, I'm not boring. I'll bring back the drama, I'll bring back the reality TV show that you all love so much and they got what they voted for.

[Tim Miller]

I'm torn about this, and that's undoubtedly true, and I'm torn about the response to it because I have, I have like the two wolves inside of me in response to that. And the one is, fuck the rubes. These people are going to get what they want. Like you want it. Good luck. We'll see. Let's see.

[Tom Nichols]

I can afford those tariffs, you can't.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And the other, the angel inside of me also says the Dems actually didn't really do a good job of trying to care to trying to show that they care. Right. And that's hard, right, because at one point you're like, what? You're supposed to show that you care about their like, deep seated concerns about transgender reassignment surgery in prison or what, you know, whatever the others, you know, thing is. But it's like, I don't know to me, if there is any recrimination and you look back, it's like there's a big part of the country that rightly or wrongly feel like the Democrats don't care about them. And I know it's the Republicans who are like, facts, don't care about your feelings. But you know, we're in politics. This is politics. The whole point is to win campaigns. And if you have 42% of the country that their impression of you is that, is that you think that they're racist and stupid and idiots and you want to make fun of them and look down on them, then you're already starting from a pretty low base, you know, of achievable vote, especially when some of these people had voted for Democrats in the past. So I am genuinely torn. This is a genuine question. I'm wondering what you think about it.

[Tom Nichols]

Okay, I think three things. First of all, there's an irony here because nobody hates the kind of rural working poor as much as the Republicans do. You and I know this. I mean, Trump hates them. Most of the people who represent them hate them. Don't want to be around them, don't want to have to visit those community centers and schools. I mean, look at the lengths to which so many of these Republican legislators go. Not to have to live in their own districts. But the sense that there is a big chunk of the Democratic Party that just doesn't care is true. But let's split that into two things. First of all, maybe the anxiety about, like, prison, transgender reassignment. But you know something, the Democrats, I'm going to say the Democrats helped to bring that on themselves. I mean, at one point, there was a really revealing moment when Kamala Harris was getting prodded about this by Bret Baer. And in kind of frustration, she said, why are you focusing on something that affects such a small number of people? And I was watching this and I wanted to say to the screen, because you did, because your party does, you know, because you've made this a kind of symbol. And, and I was watching the day after I was on Morning Joe and just before I, you know, my hit time came up, you know, you can watch the show. And I think it was Donnie Dwight saying, look, you know, the Democrats have to not be, they have to move to the center. And one of the panelists said, the center. So we don't care about trans people. And I was like, oh, there it is again. It's like, why is everybody so obsessed about training? Well, because if it's the first thing you think of when someone says you need to move to the center, then maybe you're playing into that. But the problem that I have in joining those Democrats who don't care when people say, Tom, you don't care enough about how people are suffering in this economy because eggs are five bucks a carton. Yeah, they're five bucks a carton here in Rhode island where, you know, Trump increased his share here in Rhode island, too. He lost the state. But, you know, I have a hard time with the typical American who complains about $5 eggs driving, you know, the big truck and spending the money that we spend on gambling and sports and all the other stuff. I mean, there is a part of me that says the very poorest people in this country nobody seems to care about except the Democrats at this point who have always kind of been there to say we need to have free the Tim Walsh Democrats. Right. We need to have free lunches for hungry kids. But that other argument about you're supposed to really empathize with the suffering of people who are living in half million dollar houses and driving big trucks who just happen to be pissed off because eggs for a year or a year and a half have been a couple of bucks higher, even as all the other stuff. Cool. I admit it. I have that same problem of saying, you know what? I give up. I don't know how to talk to you. And when Trump starts dumping tariffs on things, here's the part that really worries me. If I can just jump from that subject to the thing that the popcorn kernel really stuck in my teeth. Trump is going to inherit a great economy.

[Tim Miller]

Ugh. I can't even think about it. It's so annoying, right?

[Tom Nichols]

And the day after he's inaugurated, he's gonna say, there it is, we solved everything. Economy's great flow, interest rates are raging.

[Tim Miller]

I can't even think about it.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, and he's going to take credit and for a year he's going to skate on Biden's soft landing. The thing, the problem of not caring, right? When people say, but Tom, the economy, I'm like, listen, two years ago we were expecting a massive recession. The soft landing that got pulled off by this administration and by the Fed nobody thought was possible. And now you're bitched out about it because the recession didn't happen. But gas is only 299 a gallon now.

[Tim Miller]

The death of expertise. All your experts failed us on that one. All the economists said there was a recession coming.

[Tom Nichols]

The economic experts were like, of course. You know, there's always that trapdoor phrase, if current trends continue, right? Hey, listen, when I was gaining weight, if current trends continue, you know, I'd be £3,000. At some point you try and do something, and that's what policy does, right? It's to make sure you don't end up weighing 3,000 pounds to make sure that you don't end up in a recession. And good policy created a soft landing. Trump's going to take total credit for that. He's then going to screw the pooch. He's going to do that thing with tariffs. He just like, we don't have to guess at this, right? Remember, he had to bail out the farmers. He had to do relief for small businesses that he screwed over by messing with China because he didn't understand how supply chains work and doesn't understand how tariffs work. And then he's going to say, I had a great economy. Democrats messed it up. I don't know what happened. I take no responsibility at all. That's where my lack of empathy overcomes me, because I know that's going to happen and I know that the people that are going to believe that horseshit are the same people right now telling me, I don't know, Tom, eggs were five bucks. And, you know, I mean, I know fascism is bad, but, you know, eggs.

[Tim Miller]

I'm with you on the fucking rich Trumpers and who are complaining. And we'll spend unfortunately, way more of my brain power than I would like, unraveling all of their fake grievances for the foreseeable future. That said, when I think about the Democrats problem, and maybe this is wrong, I'm open. I'm going to try over the next few months to have like some lefty populace on. Maybe they need to be do lefty populist policy. Maybe. My instinct is. I don't think so, though, actually. I think that the Democrats answer is always a policy paper. And to me, the reality is when I think in my mind's eye, who could go to a town hall, not call town hall? Who could go shoot the shit with the guys at the MMA fight that Trump goes to? Who could go to the SEC tailgate and just shoot the shit? Who could go to a farm gathering in Lamar's, Iowa, where everybody's sitting around doing coffee and demonstrate that they actually care about these people and are listening to them. I don't think the Democrats have anybody. I literally can't think of any. I can't think of anyone.

[Tom Nichols]

They had Sherrod Brown until 10 minutes ago.

[Tim Miller]

And he's okay with that kind of Fetterman, I guess the answer is Fetterman, but he struggles to talk. Fetterman, maybe so he's not a particularly strong communicator, but to me, it's as much about like, some of it is policy, but some of it is like, they're just not showing up. And for a group of people, the Democrats are always like, oh, you've got to show up. You've got to listen to this group. You've got to elevate that group. You got to do like, that is the Democrats ethos. And so I just don't understand if you're like, oh, you have to make space for the native community and you gotta make space for the LGBTQ, but you don't make any space for 42% of the country. Like, listen to yourself. I think to me, like, that's my instinct, is that is the main issue.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, I'm of two minds of this as I am about everything now. One is, I don't want presidents doing that. I liked, you know, I mean, yeah, Reagan used to put on his hat and all that. Stuff. But remember that the big slam on Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan was that they were too regal.

[Tim Miller]

Right, right.

[Tom Nichols]

That they had this kind of lazy majesty, you know, the designer dresses and the whole thing.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. But fast forward. W could do it. Obama could do it.

[Tom Nichols]

Obama. All right, I will give you Obama and I will give you. Bill Clinton could do it.

[Tim Miller]

But among Republicans, Bill Clinton could do it. Every president. That's every president except Biden, who was elected during a pandemic. Clinton. No, Bush. Obama.

[Tom Nichols]

Bush 41 couldn't do it.

[Tim Miller]

43, though, after 41 message. I care.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, but there are still only three.

[Tim Miller]

Networks in Bush 41. In the modern media era. In the modern media era, all of them have been able to do.

[Tom Nichols]

I know, and I don't. I think that's a problem. I don't want presidents. I want presidents that are competent, who know their job, who know foreign policy, who are people of steady character and steely nerves. I don't really.

[Tim Miller]

I want that too.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, I don't really care if they can go do the corn dog, you know, and all that populist bullshit. I think part of the reason that we're in the situation we're in is that people have come to expect that. You know, it's like, well, he needs to be just like me. No, I don't want the president to be just like me. I'm not that competent. I'm not that good. I'm just a middle aged guy in Rhode Island. I want the president to be somebody who has real talent and ability. And whether he can hang around with me down at the Clam Boil here in Middletown, I don't give a shit about that. But I understand, as you just said, in the words of Hyman roth and Godfather 2, this is the business we've chosen. Right? This is politics. And you have to win those elections. But on the other hand, a lot of those folks live in such an epistemic bubble at some point. Today, I'll tell you more about this conversation. I had two hours I spent talking to a Trump supporter in Pennsylvania and it was trippy. But I will agree with you about this. How many times, and I know you've said this to friends, and I know I've said it when talking to other, never Trumpers or former Republic Republicans or centrists. Stop scaring the normals. Right? That's all you have to do to win these elections. Don't scare the normies. And I think Harris, to her credit, figured that out fast. Because in 2019, you know how I felt about Harris in 2019 and 2020. I was like, oh, man, this is really a bad idea. Far to the left and doesn't. But, you know, she was a different candidate by 2024. I'm glad, you know, people learn they can change. But I think too much of the Democratic Party, I think on this, the critics that have argued that the Democratic Party now being the party of college educated people, basically has lost its ability to talk to people who come from working class backgrounds who are not steeped in the latest, you know, gender studies controversies. And I think that that's something that has to be recaptured. And I think a lot of Democrats think it's, like, dirty to have to do that. There's an impurity involved in that. It's funny you brought up trans issues, because I was talking to a Democrat and I said, not a winning issue right now for the Democrats. If you're swimming upstream against Republicans, they're going to take out all these ad buys and they love this issue and they go after it. And the answer was something like, well, trans people can't wait for their rights. Well, okay. They're not better off today, that's for sure. As is anybody, any minority community. No minority community is better off today after what happened on Tuesday.

[Tim Miller]

I also hate the false binary. You know, and this is what I'm talking about, about being able to talk normal. Like, you can talk about protecting trans people in a manner that is reminiscent of how American politicians have talked for a long time about how everybody has dignity. We're not trying to throw anybody under the bus. Like, there's ways to do this. That is not. I'm sorry, Kamala Harris. I'm sorry to obsess about this, but Kamala Harris has her pronouns in her bio still. Okay. It's just like, I get it, I get it. But like. And by the way, I respect this if you prefer to be identified as they them or if you're trans, like, awesome. I have trans friends. I love trans people. Okay? But like, Kamala Harris is obviously she her. And so my point is to people that don't like that aren't involved in this, in this sort of debate and aren't familiar and don't know any trans people and aren't familiar with all this, they look at this and they're like, like, this is ridiculous. This person doesn't actually care about me, you know?

[Tom Nichols]

Right. Or it opens the door for them to say, I don't know what that's about. What is that about? And of course, the Republicans interpose very quickly and say, we'll tell you what it's about.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right.

[Tom Nichols]

It's about an attack on you and your family and God and country and all that other stuff.

[Tim Miller]

So you can protect trans people and speak like a normal human. This was the frustrating thing to me.

[Tom Nichols]

You can protect everybody. And.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I was, like, on Ms. Yesterday, and I was just listening to some of the politicians and just the way in which Democrats talk, like, to me, that's the wake up call. I know you love this. This is why I wanted to have Tom Nichols on. Because you want the highfalutin rhetoric. You want the creed of corps, right? You want the reference to Montesquieu.

[Tom Nichols]

No. Come on. Oh, now, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You forget. You forget who I am and where I come from. I have never quoted Montesquieu. And I mean, like I said, remember, I'm the guy in my stuff. You're gonna more often find a Don Corleone quote than you're gonna find Montesquieu.

[Tim Miller]

I know.

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, look, I agree with you. We're in heated agreement about this, that if we're gonna keep bashing the Democrats for a moment more, because I think we have, you know, this is part of the bashing.

[Tim Miller]

It's like, it's. We're all.

[Tom Nichols]

We're grieving process.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. We're all in this together. It's just like, you know. You know, I think it's worth trying to figure it out. What else are we gonna do?

[Tom Nichols]

Well, I think it's especially important to figure it out. Not for the presidential election, which, you know, look, Kamala Harris spoke like a completely normal person for three months in this election, and Donald Trump talked like a gibberish.

[Tim Miller]

A completely normal politician.

[Tom Nichols]

Yes, a normal politician, but Donald Trump also was, you know, a gibbering, delusional old man going on about, you know, sharks and all that stuff. So, you know, this double standard where we say, well, not Democrats have to talk. Like, then Donald Trump can sound like, you know, he's. He's off his medication and wandering the streets in a hospital. Johnny. Right? I mean, that's. Every time I hear Trump, I just think of this guy with the Johnny open in the back and a New York City policeman saying, come in. Come out of the road. Come out of the road.

[Tim Miller]

Sir, I just want to again, set the table. There is no shortage of complaints about Donald Trump's language, policies, behavior, character here. My point is, we're doing politics, and when you're doing politics, you're trying to win campaigns. And so what? So, and this was, this was a devastating loss.

[Tom Nichols]

And it's the down ticket campaigns where I think that really can hurt. A lot of that language can really hurt. And you saw the Democrats already started to pay that price with people like Cori Bush and Jamaal Bowman. And you know that look who won.

[Tim Miller]

Yesterday in red districts. Jared Golden, Marie Glusenkamp Perez. You know, they are working class. Like these are some Dems that exist. Actually, I should revise and extend my remarks about Fetterman earlier. Both of them are people that I think could go into these spaces and talk normal and do a hang. Right. And they're not Joe Manchin, corporate moderates.

[Tom Nichols]

My last criticism here, while we're on the subject of Democrats, is when you're putting pronouns in your bio, it's because you're trying to send a signal that part of it's well intentioned, right to say, I see you, I care about your issues, I'm an ally, and so on. But you're also trying to shore up these shaky flanks all the time. The Republicans, you know this as a former Republican guy, Tim, the Republicans never have to do that.

[Tim Miller]

Look at how they treated Nikki Haley. Didn't matter.

[Tom Nichols]

Didn't matter. I always think of that. Great. It's possibly apocryphal, but I think it's been attributed to deaver back in 84 when somebody told the Reagan campaign, the evangelicals are really mad at you. Right. Because Reagan didn't get prayer in schools and outlaw abortion and do all this stuff on the campaign show. Yes, yes, of course we're gonna do that. Of course. Then he gets an officer. Yeah, we're not doing any of that. And so they told the campaign they're really mad at you. And this Reagan aid says, fuck them. What are they going to do? Vote for Mondale? Because they won't. The problem is that the Democrats are constantly getting these kinds of pasted up hostage letters from various constituencies saying, remember us or this section of the vote gets thrown in the river.

[Tim Miller]

And it's also part of the nature of the coalition, though, because the fuck them strategy actually didn't work with Arab voters that were concerned about Gaza and potentially young progressives and we got to wait for the numbers to come in.

[Tom Nichols]

But like, I mean, she did try to, I mean she did stay away from that third rail. And I think part of the reason that she didn't pick Shapiro, and I don't think that was a, I think that was a good call not to pick Shapiro, for a lot of reasons, is that she didn't want to have to walk with him through Michigan and go through all that.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

But the problem is that there is always something, you know, you and I and other never Trumpers went through this in 2016 when we were trying to make the big tent argument to our friends in the Democrats Democratic Party to say this is the nature of coalitions. I mean, Roosevelt didn't like Stalin, but they managed to work together. And I think that there is just this kind of purity testing among Democrats that makes that really difficult. And it's not about Gaza or trans people or anything else. It's about all of it. It's about a very segmented coalition that is like a parliamentary party where every small party says, I must have my issue satisfied or I will withdraw during the vote of no confidence. And I think Harris, again, going to give more kudos to Harris. I think she held that together pretty well, and I think she threaded that pretty well. And I'm not sure that in 2024 there was any abandonment of, you know, wokety pronouns or any of that stuff that was going to help her. But I think now going into 2026, which could be, you know, really the speed break on a lot of. I mean, if the, if the Democrats can do what you're supposed to do in a president's first, second, first term and put the brakes on Trump, you're right. They're gonna have to learn to talk to. And can I add one more thing? As a son of the working class and a man who grew up with an accent that I had to shed, by the way.

[Tim Miller]

Let's hear it.

[Tom Nichols]

My accent.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Say this last point in your old accent that you shed us.

[Tom Nichols]

All right? So, you know, so I grew up near Springfield and them guys, let me tell you about them guys. They come in here, okay? They come in and they don't want to hear nothing about, about those things, okay? And I grew up that, I mean, I had to, I had to learn how to pronounce th, you know, this, that, them, those. Okay, fine. Don't mimic these things. Don't be a college educated, you know, go and say, and now I'm fixing and I'm a gunner and you know, just be yourself. It's okay. You know, I don't need to. Don't do that. And I think both parties do that. Except that Republicans get away with it because Republicans are so. Their party discipline is so strong. They just don't give a crap about any of that. But you don't have to walk in. I mean, I know she got accused of code switching and all that stuff, but you can talk to normal Americans in your normal voice and not have to pantomime caring about that stuff. Just talk to people. Talk to people and realize that not everybody went to grad school and not everybody is on Twitter.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, y'all. After this election, having been out there so much speaking against Donald Trump, I've had to just take some basic precautions when thinking about me and my family's security. If you're feeling the same way because.

[Unknown]

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[Tim Miller]

All right, we spent 28 minutes of hair shirt. I want to go forward. But one more quick back question, which is the anti hair shirt question. I'm going to put the link to this in the show notes for people who want to look at this. Derek Thompson, who we've had on the pod, posted a chart that goes back to, I don't know, like the middle of the 20th century about how global incumbent parties did in a given year. And in 2024 is the only year, I guess we're in November. So I guess some incumbent party could, I don't know if there any elections between now and January, but it's the only year we're not where every incumbent party lost share everyone all around the world. I find this very strange that 2024 is the year of suffering for everybody. I mean, the inflation, certainly inflation's annoying. I'm with it. And some people really suffered through inflation, but there's been a lot of suffering over the course of the last 80 years. It's a little strange to me that it's an outlier, I guess, in levels of suffering, but maybe there was just nothing. Maybe this is all just hot air. And it was just. It was literally just the eggs. It was just the eggs and that's it. And the phones. It's just the eggs and the phones. People hear more complaints now than they did back then. And the inflation was annoying. And that's it. All incumbents were fucked.

[Tom Nichols]

Okay, But I saw Derek's chart, and the explanation for why now, by the way, is that, like, in the first wave of inflation, people got it. It's like, yes, it's the pandemic. Nobody can do anything. But then when, because prices persist and stay high for another year after that, that's when people said, okay, the government should do something about that. Of course, governments, unless they want to institute price controls, they can't do anything about it. This is part of that myth of executive power. The difference is, in the one place, I'm not going to let the United States off the hook. First of all, we're supposed to be smarter than that. And in those other countries, getting rid of the incumbents did not mean trading off for a sociopath.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not letting us off the hook either. Okay, Bill Kristol has a newsletter this morning that is a stealing your spine. The fight must go on. We must fight. We must band together again. And, I don't know, we few. Yeah, we few. We marry few. We band of brothers. I'm letting the devil inside me talk. No, this is just going to be this podcast for the next month. So if people want that, that's great, you're welcome here. Do we actually. Shouldn't we let him burn it down? Shouldn't we let them just fucking. Shouldn't we let them just stew in their own shit for two years? Do we fight? Like, do it? Why? Why what? Well, I'd let him have it. Let him. Let him get it. Let him get Trump. And I guess there's strategy of how to fight, right? Like if he appoints an insane person to one of these cabinet positions. Great. Let him point this craziest fucking person that he can find to all these things. Why would we push back? Why fight?

[Tom Nichols]

I think it depends on what it is. I'm gonna tell a tale out of school from the days when Bill and I were at these early, you know, holy crap, never Trump meetings.

[Tim Miller]

I was. I'd show up sometimes.

[Tom Nichols]

You were there. That's one of the ways we met. I love that. We practically met in a bunker. Remember that?

[Tim Miller]

It was literally. Yeah, it was a basement. It was dank.

[Tom Nichols]

It was like the man from U.N.C.L.E. you know, it's like, go over to the elevator and a guy nods and you go down and, you know, a typical elevator in a big city. Or is it. And I remember one of the discussions that I had with Bill back then was. And there were other people, you know, Elliot Cohen wrote a very famous piece about this about, should you work for Trump? And I said this in my piece yesterday. The decision that the Republican Party, the people that worked for Trump came to, is to put baby bumpers and pool noodles on all the sharp edges around Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

And I remember that, that was a big discussion among that group and among a lot of other Republicans of saying, you know, do we let them just. But, you know, Tim, it goes back to the thing you said earlier about, okay, but then a lot of people suffer, you know, needlessly.

[Tim Miller]

I think we might need that. Well, okay, but not needlessly. Actually, maybe there's a need.

[Tom Nichols]

I don't want to be one of them, is the thing. So when it comes to places like the Defense Department, look, if Trump wants to, I think tariffs is a great example. He keeps on tariffs, tariffs, tariffs. Hey, go for it. I mean, I'm the guy that, back when I was still writing at USA Today, I said, let's have that trade war. Get it started. You know, do it. Touch that stove, you know, embrace it, because that's the only way you're going to learn. But I do think, you know, if he wants to put Robert F. Kennedy in charge of national health, I mean, I think in that case, Bill's point is well taken, that you have to really square your, you know, square up and say, no, I'm not going to let this, you know, deranged weirdo kill children, you know, simply because it would be fun to watch it happen and watch the world burn. But there's a different way to approach it. Say we have to fight. The first thing I wrote, the thing that I finished writing at 3 o'clock in the morning, you know, with a bottle of bourbon next to me was to say, look, deep breath, square your shoulders. One foot in front of the other. Don't run into the streets screaming, you know, but start talking to other people. You know, citizen associations. Figure out the candidates you're going to support, the organizations you're going to donate to, places that are going to, you know what I'm saying? I'm sorry. You know, no more demonstrative canceling of subscriptions. You know, help pay for journalism that, you know, hold these people to kind.

[Tim Miller]

You may hate some of the people, local ones.

[Tom Nichols]

Subscribe to your local paper if you have one. Be engaged, but not obsessed. Don't stare at the TV like, I haven't, I don't know about you. I've been, I haven't watched the news.

[Tim Miller]

For like two days, unfortunately. I've been on the news for fucking two days and I'm considering jumping off the 30 Rockefeller.

[Tom Nichols]

But I was, I was on, I was on Morning Joe yesterday. So, yes, I watched an hour of tv, but the minute it was over, you know, I said, okay, I done. Because it was like, okay, we have more results coming in. No, I know the result. I don't need to know. You know what? Hamden County, Massachusetts, I was sitting there.

[Tim Miller]

At five in the morning and Steve Kornacki is like, and in Winnebago county, you can see this. Trump is plus 5. And then you go to, you know, whatever, we're in county and he's plus nine. And I'm like, he's plus in every county. Steve, I don't need to listen to this for 20 minutes. You don't need to keep. He's pressing every new county, you know, okay, Oakland county, he's up 11. And I'm like, yeah, he's up in every county.

[Tom Nichols]

Steve's got a job to do, dude.

[Tim Miller]

I know, but I'm just saying there, as a consumer of it, it was driving me insane.

[Tom Nichols]

Like that character on See, I don't go for Montesquieu. I was thinking of that character on Galaxy Quest who says, repeats what the computer says. I have one job on this ship and it might be stupid, but I'm gonna do it. You know, all systems are normal, Captain. All systems are normal.

[Tim Miller]

I needed that laughter. The election might be over, but if that post election anxiety is still hanging around, Pod Save America is here to help you process what's happening now and what comes next. Every Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday, failed Survivor contestant John Lovett, Tommy Vitor, Jon Favreau and Dan Pfeiffer deliver expert political Analysis you can trust, and no BS takes on where we all go from here. Tune in to Pod, Save America, wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube. I want to make one more case for that. Resistance is futile. And we're like, 40 minutes into this.

[Tom Nichols]

And we're slap happy on it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I know. Here's Nick Cataggio over at the Dispatch, and if you indulge me, I just need to read quite a bit of it because it spoke to my dark soul in a deep way. Trump's voters broke America and deserve to get what they've bought economically, politically, and morally. I was right about the rottenness of the electorate, and I'll be right in spades about the rottenness of Trump's abuses in a second term. And when millions of our friends and neighbors decide they don't care how abusive of his being, so long as he's hurting the right people, I'll remind everyone who scolded me for assuming the worst about our wonderful fellow Americans that I was right about that, too. If you've been dismayed by what Trump voters have been willing to condone in the past, get ready. You ain't seen nothing yet. We're going to hear a lot of nonsense from Never Trumpers in the months ahead about how the valuable work of democracy goes on and we must fight to save America or whatever. And that's fine. It's human nature to answer defeat with defiance, but it's also silly. Ultimately, a country is just as people, and you can't save these people from themselves. Whoo.

[Tom Nichols]

Whoo.

[Tim Miller]

That's a heater. That's a heater. I don't know if I agree with it, but there's a lot of truth there.

[Tom Nichols]

I do agree with it. And I think that's, you know, that's why I love to read Nick, because as you know, that's the 180 proof white lightning right there. But, you know, look, he's. I. This is the misanthrope in me. You know, after the 2016 election, I gave a talk at a college in upstate New York, and one of the faculty, who was actually a Trumper, there are college professors who are Trumpers. Believe it or not, I wrote about this in my last book, this incident. He said, you, contempt for the voters is palpable. And I said, yeah, for some voters, it is. I'm not required to, you know, I'm not Jesus. I'm not required to love them for their votes. I'm required to love them as human beings. But I don't have to love them for, you know, what they've done. He said, yeah, that contempt is palpable. And I said, so is yours. I said, you just hate a different bunch of people and you hate them.

[Tim Miller]

Deeply and you think it's okay to hate them because of the power dynamic or whatever you justify.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, the power dynamic. And right away he went to an abortion. Well, they support something evil.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, all right, so we're about to see some evil.

[Tom Nichols]

Yes, exactly. And I think the one thing I hope and that I really liked in Nick's screed, there is enough of this double standard. You know, you can't judge them for their votes. The hell I can't. You need to reach out to them, and we're all in this together. And no, no, you know, I respect their right as citizens to vote the way they want to, but I'm not required to affirm them. And I think that's the thing, that double standard where we infantilized Trump voters for so long. Right. This is, this is the same dynamic, and I think Nick's railing against this quite rightly. This is the same dynamic that had well meaning reporters trumping out to diners in East Cupcake, you know, to say, you know, you're a 65 year old retiree driving a Cadillac. Why are you so angry? What can we do to make you less angry? In a sense, I've always said, you know, the answer is like, well, you can get that girl at the Starbucks named Rainbow out of there because I don't like her nose rings. You know, I mean, it's like, you can't reason with any of these folks, you know, when you're asked, well, are you saying that by making this choice they're bad people? Some of them. Some of them, yeah. I mean, I'm willing to grab millions of people who said, I really don't know that much about this. I mean, I've come to accept that there are people who literally are so detached from the day to day affairs of their own country that they really don't know the difference between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris in any meaningful way. And they say, like friends back home and say, well, I don't know about any of this. Republicans are always better for the economy. Okay, I think that's irresponsible and it's bad citizenship, but I don't think it makes them bad people. But the people who want what Trump was selling, and there are tens of millions of them. Yeah, yeah, this is a. I, I think Nick is right on the money. About something here that. No more talk concierge, no more, you know, no more rationalizations about this. This is. These are people making a moral choice, and it's really a bad one. Stop me before I rant some more.

[Tim Miller]

But. No, no, no, that's right. No, I have one edit, to Nick's point, and I think we don't have time to hash this out now. But I just. So people know where my head's at and there will be much discussion about this in the months to come. You know, I do think that the valuable work to save America goes on. The valuable work of democracy goes on. I guess, maybe, I don't know, my edit to him is maybe there is some element of. For this year, for 2025, letting people see unadulterated Trumpism actually might be the work of saving America and trying to do little things to make yourself feel better about putting bumpers on it might not be it. So, anyway, much to discuss on that.

[Tom Nichols]

You know me, I argued from day one, don't put the bumpers on things other than things that could produce nuclear disaster or the deaths of millions of children. The rest of it, especially the economic stuff, have at it.

[Tim Miller]

We've learned America's resilience. And maybe. Well, I just go back to the top of the podcast. Maybe people need to get it good and hard so that we can get back to an equilibrium. Because if not otherwise, then you're in a total nihilistic place, which is like, well, nothing. It's unfixable and I'm not there.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, and also, I think people to our left, one of the big arguments that I had over the years was because I will do this when he becomes president, I will write about him. I'm going to cover those crazy press conferences I want to amplify, partly as a way of keeping the record, but also because I think that the more you see of Trump, the less you can deny it. And I don't want people on the left saying, stop amplifying him. Stop sending out his message.

[Tim Miller]

That's all over and done, I think. And my other argument, which we'll be discussing over the next year, is I do think that maybe a refocus on the details of what is happening in the Trump administration over the words coming out of his mouth is probably going to be a useful pivot and one that I'm going to try to focus on myself.

[Tom Nichols]

Okay, I'm going to have to add one more thing about that. About.

[Tim Miller]

Please, one more thing. And I have one more serious topic we need to close on.

[Tom Nichols]

All right. This person I spoke to in Pennsylvania voted early. And then I said, but you're not concerned about what you're seeing? Like, you didn't think that matter? Because she said, oh, I'm not a racist. And I don't go. I don't like any of that. Like, you know, like, like that was somehow like any of that other stuff.

[Tim Miller]

As if it's not central to Trump's being.

[Tom Nichols]

Exactly. And. But I said, well, you didn't like Madison's great. She said, no, once I voted, I turned off everything. I don't fall. I don't watch the news anymore. Now, that is alarming, deeply alarming, because that is. Not only am I in an epistemic bubble, I am building one. I'm building it from the inside out. And that's why all of that stuff, everything he does, it needs to be covered and not normalized. Because I will say we were a little hard on the Democrats today, I think, because I want to be kind of hard on at least some journalists who did engage in sane washing and really indulging that bias toward coherence and not really covering. I mean, there is no argument Donald Trump was not covered the way Joe Biden would have been covered if he had done the same things.

[Tim Miller]

For Democrats are getting sensitive. There's no criticism I can offer of Democrats that is deeper than my criticism of myself. So trust me, it's. All the shame is on this side of the microphone. All right. You know Alexander Dugin, Putin's brain.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, brain, brain.

[Tim Miller]

He sent some tweets this week. You see those by chance?

[Tom Nichols]

Yes, I did.

[Tim Miller]

I'm going to read a couple of them to you because I think that there's a little bit of mocking, but also some very serious worries for us to close the podcast with. So we have one that is decisive. The world will never, ever be like before. Globalists have lost their final combat. The future is finally open. Now we have to rethink our global strategy, how the world traditionalist circle should shape their common policy. We need to reintroduce our society's traditional values here. Post modernity meets pre modernity. And then he cites J.D. vance saying he's announced that. I don't know if J.D. vance actually announced this, but Dugan said that he did. The post liberal right wing era is coming. This is exactly what's needed. No alliance between the right and liberals, only traditional values. They're pretty happy in Moscow.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah. Although, listen, this is where I'm going to be a little bit of a. Hopefully a calming influence.

[Tim Miller]

Great.

[Tom Nichols]

Don't overreact to Dugan. Dugan says this, you know, every 45 minutes. This is what Dugin does.

[Tim Miller]

There's no doubt they're happy, though. Medvedev.

[Tom Nichols]

They are. Oh, in Moscow. They're popping champagne again in Moscow. And in Beijing, America's enemies rooted for the election of Donald Trump, as the kids say, let that sink in. So there's no doubt about it. But Dugin is a nut, and even Putin has kind of held him at arm's length on occasion. But Dugan does bring up something that people should think about that as. As nutty as Donald Trump is, and he makes no sense, and there's going to be a lot of terrible policies. Vance and the tech bros around him are really dangerous because they have really stupid ideas. They think they can be implemented. They have no experience in politics. We just elected a vice president who had literally 24 months of experience in politics.

[Tim Miller]

To me, I think the thing about the Dugan thing that is right. I hear what your point about his clownishness and braggadocia is. We're all liberals now. I think it was Bill Kristol that wrote that the fight ahead is really not about conservatism and progressivism or whatever. It's the survival of the liberal order is the fight ahead.

[Tom Nichols]

It's the global Democratic coalition against a global authoritarian movement. Had Americans thought about it more in that way. Of course. I don't know if that would have broken through the big egg scandal. It's like, hey, China and Russia, you're electing a guy who says that Nancy Pelosi is dangerous than the guy pointing 1500 nuclear warheads at us. Would that have, you know, really broken through the. The horror and the pain of $5 eggs? I don't know. Maybe not.

[Tim Miller]

Tom Nichols. The eggs are expensive. It's a mad world out there. I think that the laugh about the Kornaki map was the first real laugh, not like doomsday laugh, I've had since Tuesday night. So I appreciate you indulging me and. And sharing that with me. And we'll be talking soon, all right? In a basement, probably.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah. Take care, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

We'll see you. Thanks to Tom Nichols. We'll be back tomorrow with an old friend, Friday edition of the Bulwark Podcast. See you then. Peace.

[Unknown]

All around me are familiar faces Worn out places worn out faces Bright and early for their daily races Going nowhere, going nowhere the tears are filling up their glasses no expression, no expression Hide my head I wanna drown my sorrow no tomorrow no tomorrow and I find it kind of funny I find it kind of sad the dreams in which I'm dying Are the best I've ever had I find it hard to tell you I find it hard to take when people run in circles It's a very, very mad Mad world.

[Tim Miller]

Mad world.

[Unknown]

Children waiting for the day they feel good Happy birthday Happy birthday Made to feel the way that every child should see Sit and listen Sit and listen Went to school and I was very nervous no one knew me no one knew me hello, teacher Tell me what's my lesson look right through me look right through me and I find it kind of funny I find it kind of sad the dreams in which I'm dying Are the best I've ever had I find it hard to tell you I find it hard to take when people run in circles It's a very.

[Tim Miller]

Very Mad world.

[Tom Nichols]

Mad world.

[Unknown]

Enlarge your.

[Tom Nichols]

World Mad world.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.