Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters" – The Bulwark Podcast | January 30, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a robust discussion with Tommy Vietor, co-founder of Crooked Media and former national security staff spokesman during the Obama administration. The conversation spans a wide array of pressing political issues, offering insightful analysis and sharp critiques of recent political events and figures. Below is a comprehensive breakdown of their discussion:

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1. Introduction and Current Political Climate

Timestamp: 00:00 - 01:00

Tim Miller opens the episode by highlighting significant ongoing political events:

• Cash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard Hearings: These are taking place simultaneously, indicating a day filled with high-stakes political maneuvering.
• Press Availability with Donald Trump and J.D. Vance: The focus is on Trump's comments regarding a tragic plane crash in Washington.

Miller introduces Tommy Vietor, emphasizing his background with Crooked Media and his expertise in national security.

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2. Trump's Reaction to the Washington Plane Crash

Timestamp: 02:10 - 05:26

The discussion shifts to the tragic midair collision outside Reagan National Airport, where Donald Trump attributes the disaster to the Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) diversity initiatives.

• Trump's Claim:

  "They put A big push to put diversity into the FAA's program. Then another article, the Federal Aviation Administration..." (02:10)

• Miller’s Analysis: Trump suggests that the FAA's diversity hiring, targeting individuals with intellectual and mental health challenges, contributed to the crash. He also criticizes Pete Buttigieg, labeling him a "disaster."

Tommy Vietor's Response:

• First Bucket: Blaming the crash on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) without any investigative findings.
• Second Bucket: Comparing Trump's response to previous administrations, noting the deviation from traditional presidential mourning speeches to more self-centered declarations.

"It's just, this is like the Trump era, right? It used to be you didn't want to own bad stories or disasters, and now he's just puts himself in the middle of everything." (03:25)

Key Insights:

• Vietor Highlights: The lack of meritocracy in appointing reality TV personalities to significant roles and their inability to effectively respond to crises.
• Human Impact: Miller underscores the insensitivity of Trump's remarks to the victims' families, particularly minorities and those with mental health issues.

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3. Critique of Biden Administration's Nominees: Cash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard

Timestamp: 11:03 - 39:05

Vietor delves into the qualifications and controversies surrounding current Biden nominees, focusing on Cash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard.

a. Tulsi Gabbard:

• Nomination Concerns: Gabbard's handling of sensitive foreign affairs, particularly her meetings with Syrian President Assad, raises significant ethical questions.

  "She met with Assad's wife and then Assad himself, lying about the spontaneity of these meetings." (21:36)

• Vietor's Critique: Questions Gabbard's ability to manage intelligence briefings and the potential bias in information she might present to Trump.

  "Is she going to bring in credible stuff? Is she going to filter intelligence information to the President in an ideological way?" (25:08)

b. Cash Patel:

• Controversial Actions: Patel's alleged misinformation during a Pentagon mission, nearly jeopardizing a Navy SEAL operation in Nigeria, is a focal point of concern.

  "Cash Patel ... lied about getting access to Nigerian airspace, nearly blowing up a successful rescue mission." (30:16)

• Vietor's Analysis: Highlights Patel's untrustworthiness and lack of relevant experience, questioning his suitability to lead the FBI.

  "He's an unqualified, deeply dishonest person. That seems like a bad thing for an FBI director." (29:40)

Miller’s Observation: Both nominees exhibit a pattern of denial and dishonesty, undermining their credibility and raising doubts about their capability to hold significant governmental positions.

"Republican senators see things happen where they know a nominee that they're about to vote for just lied and don't care." (34:13)

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4. Medicaid Reform and Policy Misunderstandings

Timestamp: 11:03 - 13:00

The conversation transitions to Medicaid, with Vietor criticizing Trump’s misunderstanding of the program.

• Trump’s Misstatements: Claims Medicaid has premiums and deductibles, which is largely inaccurate for the majority of beneficiaries.

  "Medicaid is not working for Americans... premiums are too high, the deductibles are too high." (12:21)

• Vietor's Response: Emphasizes the federal-state funding structure of Medicaid and Trump’s lack of understanding of its fundamental aspects.

  "Medicaid is fully paid for by a combination of federal and state funds." (13:00)

Key Takeaway: Misrepresenting Medicaid not only undermines public understanding but also hampers effective policy reform discussions.

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5. Foreign Aid Freeze: Implications and Consequences

Timestamp: 39:14 - 44:05

Miller and Vietor analyze the administration's fluctuating stance on foreign aid and its potential fallout.

• Aid Freeze Details: The administration's inconsistent policies—freezing, rescinding, and unfreezing aid—create uncertainty, particularly in critical areas like anti-AIDS programs (PEPFAR) in Africa.

  "They're going to cut all USAID... undermining our soft power and influence globally." (40:08)

• Vietor's Analysis: Highlights the strategic importance of foreign aid in combating global health crises and maintaining geopolitical influence, especially against China's expanding footprint.

  "PEPFAR is George Bush's greatest accomplishment... cutting it would remove our influence in critical regions." (40:31)

Impact Assessment: The aid freeze not only disrupts essential health programs but also diminishes U.S. influence in regions where China is actively expanding its presence through infrastructure and aid.

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6. Democratic Party Strategy and Messaging

Timestamp: 44:16 - 59:36

Vietor provides a critical evaluation of the Democratic Party's current strategies and suggests ways to enhance their political effectiveness.

a. Messaging Critique:

• Current Approach: Emphasizes collaboration and common ground, which Vietor argues is ineffective in the current opposition landscape.

  "These Democrats are an opposition party with no power... you have to act accordingly and raise the awareness and the cost of some of the most egregious things Trump is doing." (46:27)

• Suggested Shift: Focus on aggressive opposition to Trump’s policies rather than seeking common ground, to better resonate with voters and media.

  "Be interesting, talk like a human being, pick a fight, go into places that are unusual so that whatever you're doing gets shared on social media." (47:50)

b. Leadership Void:

• Vietor's Observation: The Democratic leadership lacks a charismatic and assertive figure to galvanize the party and effectively oppose Republican maneuvers.

  "There is not a Democratic leader... there's not a nominee." (50:07)

Recommendations:

• Democrats should adopt more combative and distinctive messaging strategies.
• Highlight and escalate their opposition to key Republican policies to increase visibility and voter engagement.

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7. Crypto Market and Democratic Engagement

Timestamp: 54:58 - 59:36

The conversation briefly touches on the cryptocurrency market, with Vietor expressing frustrations over missed financial opportunities and discussing the need for regulation.

• Crypto Critique: Vietor laments the prevalence of fraudulent activities within the crypto space, such as rug pulls and Ponzi schemes, while acknowledging the aspirational aspects that attract users.

  "Trump coin thing and how this whole thing is just like such an obvious fraud... it's a Ponzi scheme." (57:05)

• Democratic Opportunity: Suggests Democrats capitalize on the anti-establishment sentiment within crypto by promoting regulatory measures that protect consumers while acknowledging the innovative potential of blockchain technologies.

  "Capture part of the aspirational narrative while also addressing the fraudulent aspects." (58:15)

Strategic Insight: Balancing the regulation of crypto to prevent fraud while fostering innovation could position Democrats as protectors of both consumer interests and technological advancement.

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8. Search for Hope in Global Leadership

Timestamp: 59:36 - 61:21

In a lighter segment, Vietor discusses global leaders he admires, though both participants express skepticism about finding truly inspiring figures amidst current international turmoil.

• Preferred Leaders:
  • Anthony Albanese (Australia): Noted as a positive but lacks detailed discussion.
  • David Lammy (UK Foreign Secretary): Mentioned without extensive elaboration.

Conclusion: While global leadership presents challenges, identifying and supporting competent and ethical leaders remains crucial for international stability and progressive policies.

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9. Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: 62:11 - 63:35

Miller and Vietor wrap up the episode by reflecting on the necessity of persistent and strategic opposition within the Democratic Party to effectively counter Republican narratives and policies.

• Vietor's Final Insight: Emphasizes the importance of obstruction and strategic moves to safeguard Democratic interests and maintain political influence.

  "Obstruction works. Mitch McConnell built an entire career off of that." (51:51)

• Miller’s Acknowledgment: Recognizes the value in Vietor’s strategic recommendations and underscores the ongoing struggle within Democratic messaging and leadership.

Closing Quote:

"Let's come together, Libs. We can do this. We're going to make it through this." (63:15)

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Notable Quotes:

• Trump on FAA Diversity:

  "They put A big push to put diversity into the FAA's program..." (02:10)

• Vietor on Trump's Communication Style:

  "It's just how communications is now... this is the Trump era." (04:26)

• Vietor on Tulsi Gabbard’s Qualifications:

  "Why her? No one can answer the question why does this person make sense for this job other than some kind of payback for a political favor?" (25:08)

• Miller on Democratic Strategy:

  "If Republicans are going to vote for this guy anyway, are we sure that giving a speech that goes on YouTube or TikTok isn't a better use of time?" (35:27)

• Vietor on Obstruction as Strategy:

  "Obstruction works. Mitch McConnell built an entire career off of that." (51:51)

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Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast offers a sharp and critical examination of the current political landscape, highlighting the inadequacies and missteps of both Republican and Democratic strategies. Tommy Vietor provides valuable insights into the flaws of Trump’s responses to crises, the questionable qualifications of Biden's nominees, and the Democratic Party's need for a more aggressive and engaging strategy. The discussion underscores the complexities of modern political communication and the urgent need for effective opposition to safeguard liberal democracy.

Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the interplay between political narratives, leadership decisions, and policy implementations, all delivered with Vietor's seasoned perspective and Miller's incisive questioning.

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the episode, providing a thorough overview for those who have not listened.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Foreign hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. We have a massive day today. The Cash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard hearings are happening as we speak, as is a press avail that Donald Trump and J.D. vance are having about the tragic plane crash in Washington. So we'll get to some of that. For Board plus subscribers, we'll do a full wrap up at the end of the day. That link will be in your inbox or you can go to thebullork.com subscribe if you're not a member yet. I don't know why that would be and of course I'll be back tomorrow for a recap. But for today we've got the co founder of Crooked Media, co host of it's something called Pod Save America. He also has another podcast I like called Pod Save the World. He was a national security staff spokesman during the Obama administration. It's the man Ben Shapiro calls Tayron. Tommy. Tommy Vitor. How you doing?

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, I'm good, buddy. It's great to see you actually. I think in like 2018. I emailed Ben because I used to call him Baby Bannon, which honestly was kind of unfair because I think he left the Bannon world and so we agreed to not be quite as mean to each other online. But I've never actually met Ben, so I should probably do that someday.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't know. I listened to his podcast for the first time in a while yesterday and it is unlistenable. And the fact that he beats us in the ratings sometimes is, well, me always. But you sometimes should really make you have to reflect on some things.

[Tommy Vitor]

How do you do a show without someone to talk to? I just, I don't get it. It's just a monologue.

[Tim Miller]

It's just a monotone. What did Sarah call him? A castrated chipmunk. Just like a castrated chipmunk giving you a 50 minute lect in the same tones. It's an interesting podcast, you know, teach their own right. You know, everybody, people like different things, different strokes for different folks. All right, as I mentioned, there was a just horrific midair collision last night outside of Reagan national dca. There were no survivors. The collision was between a passenger jet coming in from Wichita and an army helicopter. As we're coming on here, I believe still happening in the Brady briefing room is Donald Trump and J.D. vance talking about this, the program I want to play one clip from the president talking about what he thinks was the reason that this crash happened.

[Donald Trump]

They put A big push to put diversity into the FAA's program. Then another article, the Federal Aviation Administration. This was before I got to office recently, second term. The FAA is actively recruiting workers who suffer severe intellectual disabilities, psychiatric problems, and other mental and physical conditions under a diversity and inclusion hiring initiatives spelled out on the agency's website. Can you imagine?

[Tim Miller]

So I guess it's black people and the people with mental health problems that cause this. He went on to say that Pete Buttigieg was a disaster who's just got a good line of bullshit. Then he followed up that by saying, now we mourn and we pray. So, thoughts on the president's reaction to this tragedy?

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, I have two sort of buckets of thoughts, Tim. I mean, the idea of blaming this crash on DEI before there's an investigation and then handing the mic to a real world Boston cast mate turned Fox News host turned transportation secretary with Sean Duffy, who then hands the mic over to Fox News weekend anchor turned Secretary of defense Pete Hegseth is a lot. It's a lot for me to take in.

[Tim Miller]

You don't feel like that was a meritocracy there, having two reality show stars and one weekend host being the point people for responding to this? You don't think that. And they are all white males. So, I mean, they had to overcome the obstacles of the DEI to get to their jobs.

[Tommy Vitor]

They succeeded somehow in spite of all the obstacles in front of them. So that was one bucket of frustration. And then I just started to think about, like, what would Obama have done? What would George Bush have done? What would Reagan have done in a moment like this? I think you go out and give a speech that's thoughtful and that is about the victims and mourning and this sort of like, collective wound that the nation is experiencing because of this tragedy. I don't think any president in history would go out and do like a freewheeling press conference, even if they did have command of the facts. But it's just, this is like the Trump era, right? It used to be you didn't want to own bad stories or disasters, and now he's just puts himself in the middle of everything. And it's just, it's an interesting. I guess it's just how communications is now.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, not really. And it's how communications is for Trump, I guess, not for Biden, that's for sure. Yeah, well, that's another. That's another challenge.

[Tommy Vitor]

But maybe there is value to this, right? You are, you are commanding like you're owning every story. You have the attention on you at all times. Like, it goes against my instincts, but I'm wondering, I don't know, is this the right instinct?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, maybe there's political value. I don't know. But just like from a human standpoint, it's just so atrocious. Oh, for sure. There are people that many people that lost loved ones. I saw an interview last night with a local news. There's a guy waiting for his wife, hoping that she survived. Obviously she didn't survive. I assume that there were people there who are not white, who are minorities, who have mental health issues in their family. Do they really want to see the president the next day talking about his speculation that maybe it was a black lady that was in the cockpit? I just don't get that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, no, the substance is atrocious and that is unequivocal. There's a stylistic and sort of process point that was interesting to me that I guess what we're going to be living with for the next four years.

[Tim Miller]

No, obviously it's atrocious, I guess. What is the point? He's also not running again, I guess. You know what I mean? So it's like, what is even the political point? Right? This is the one sort of element of all of this. Like you would think that he also had a written statement. It was classic Trump that's talking about uniting the country. We don't even really know what happened. I saw this kind of right wing pilot of somebody that had been a pilot of a Blackhawk helicopter. That was the helicopter that crashed into the passenger plane. And dude gave a very detailed list of all the things that could go wrong and how it's more challenging than you think and how there's a watch person, there's two. Right. We know nothing. And so to pop off on that is pretty ridiculous. It is Trump. But as you're saying about just kind of how things are right now, at some level, it reflects a little bit of a just kind of breakdown of our entire society. That also is maybe Trump's faults. But you know, I saw some other, some of our YouTube competitors out there yesterday that were blaming it on the fact that the FAA administrator got fired already and we didn't have a replaced FAA administrator and that saying that it's Trump's fault. Democratic congressman woman Norma Torres said that the families deserve answers because Trump gutted an aviation safety committee, which I think, I think that was really a TSA committee. But like, again, this happened on the other side. I got into fights with Republicans back during the Palestine East Palestine train Derailment, you know, where there were like, Rudy Giuliani and other people were out there talking about how Pete Buttigieg's paternity leave was to blame for this. So maybe Trump is just taking advantage of, like, our broken society.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, I think he's speaking to, like, a really hard reality in politics in that, like, sometimes really bad things happen in the world and there's no rhyme or reason to it. And it makes us feel better when we can throw a conspiracy theory around the chaos, around the pain or something to explain this to ourselves. But that's not always going to be the case. And, you know, this might have just been a horrible accident here. Like, we'll figure it out. Right. But I saw the same things you did, like people blaming the air traffic controller shortage or the buyout proposal or like, like, you know, firing the head of the tsa. And my instinct was to find that gross. And then I saw Trump this morning and I thought, I don't know, maybe I'm not built for politics anymore, Tim. Like, maybe this is how it goes. Gross is what it is.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe you aren't built for this. You're kind of a softy. Yeah, I don't know. I do have to tell you my initial instinct to be like, fuck it, blame Trump. Fuck it, why not blame Trump? I mean, you know, he blamed Newsom for the fires. And Pete, like, caring for his kids in the NICU was blamed for like, everything that happened all over the country for two years, so why not? But, you know, I took a couple breaths and I was like, well, you know, we could probably just see what actually happened. We could probably just see what happened. And I don't think that, like my tweet or Norma Torres, his tweet is really going to be the thing that takes Trump down here. So then we can probably wait to see what actually happened. Somebody who didn't wait to see what actually happened on various things is the nominee to be the Secretary of Health and Human Services, Bobby Kennedy. Were you a big Bobby fan before the last couple?

[Tommy Vitor]

Huge, Huge Bobby fan. I also just want to, before we get into substance again, point out how tan he looks all of a sudden. I know he lives in California, but it hasn't been that nice out. So I'm wondering if there's a bronzer adoption is kind of a administration wide thing now.

[Tim Miller]

I gotta say, despite the fact that he wants to Maha, I've seen the shirtless pictures on the golds and that does not look like a natural human body.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, that looks like trt.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that looks like. Well, I don't know anything about trt. That maybe something you're into?

[Tommy Vitor]

Nor do I, but I'm thinking about getting into it because he looks pretty shredded, if we're being honest.

[Tim Miller]

He looks shredded in some ways, but he has parts of his body that are, like, malformed, the size of which is not natural. So that's not for me. I just. I like guys with muscles, but I like them to actually look like male humans, not like, male humanoid kind of avatar combos.

[Tommy Vitor]

You're a Schlossberg fan. Living in an RFK world. We get it.

[Tim Miller]

I am. I do like the noodle voice. I want to listen to some of RFK's testimony yesterday. What should we do first? Let's fuck it. Let's do heroin first. Let's listen to RFK talking about heroin.

[Donald Trump]

Listen, I know people, including members of my family, who've had a much worse time getting off of SSRIs than they did, than people have getting off of heroin. It's. The withdrawal period is. I mean, and it's on the label.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

I have some experience myself.

[Tim Miller]

Has he watched a movie about the opioid crisis or, like, read a magazine article about this? It's pretty. Kind of a pretty big deal lately, like, how hard it is for people to get off of heroin. And it caused, like, a nationwide crisis and many thousands of deaths.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, I don't have a lot of experience with either SSRIs or heroin. I'm not aware of them. SSRIs causing, like, a euphoric high or a craving or the need to take another one an hour later. I don't know. Maybe you have more experience with these things.

[Tim Miller]

Me neither. I've got my own vices. Neither of these are them, but, like, again, I've read the news, you know, and I've watched Dope Sick. Really good. Really good series.

[Tommy Vitor]

The book. Yeah, it's great.

[Tim Miller]

I haven't heard any stories of people that are like, you know, of course, getting off Lexapro. These sorts of things. I do think is not. I don't want to be like, oh, this is nothing. It's easy. But, like, there aren't any stories of people that are so jonesing for their Lexapro that they've turned to fentanyl. I haven't seen anything like that out there.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right. That's exactly right.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, certainly your body can adjust to their presence in your system, and then getting off them can cause challenges, can lead to withdrawal symptoms. But to Your point? I think this is kind of a few days or a few weeks long process, not an addiction that can plague people literally for the rest of their lives and can ruin their lives at a moment's notice if they relapse. So it's an outrageous and absurd comment.

[Tim Miller]

Well, luckily, the Secretary of Health and Human Services doesn't need to know anything about this. There are some other things that he. He didn't show a ton of knowledge about. I want to play a couple of clips of him being asked about Medicaid.

[Tommy Vitor]

Mr. Kennedy, do you know how many babies born in this country are covered through Medicaid?

[Donald Trump]

I would guess. I don't know the answer. I would guess about 30 million.

[Tommy Vitor]

I have it. Mr. Kennedy. About 41% or 1.4 million babies births are financed by Medicaid, according to the national center for Health Statistics. Republicans, again, are looking at ways to potentially reform Medicaid to help, you know.

[Donald Trump]

Pay for President Trump's priorities, but to improve outcomes.

[Tommy Vitor]

What thoughts do you have regarding Medicaid reform?

[Donald Trump]

Well, Medicaid is not working for Americans, and it's specifically not working or the target population. Most Americans, like myself, I'm on Medicare Advantage and I'm very happy with it. Most people who are on Medicaid are not happy. The premiums are too high, the deductibles are too high.

[Tim Miller]

There aren't premiums and deductibles on Medicaid. How many people does he think is in the country if there are 30 million babies on Medicaid, 1 billion Americans. Matt Iglesias would be happy, but I don't think that's true. Were you impressed with his command of these very important healthcare policy matters that he's going to be in charge of?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, he's such a slippery, terrible person. And it did seem like he crammed for the test, but he kind of skipped like the 101. I mean, if you're going to merge Medicare and Medicaid, which is a proposal he floated, you should probably have an idea for how that would work. But when pressed on that, he's like, I don't have a plan. I'd love to work it out with you. Member of Congress. At times it didn't seem like he understood that it was Medicare old people, Medicaid poor people. He said Medicaid is fully paid for by the federal government. That's wrong. It's actually paid for by a combination of federal and state funds. And again, you know, you made the point about how he was wrong about premiums and deductibles. They don't exist for the vast majority of Medicaid recipients. We're Talking about nearly $2 trillion worth of federal spending. I think. I think Medicare was 14% of total spending in 2023. So these are enormous programs that he doesn't understand the basics of, let alone how to administer them.

[Tim Miller]

What are your thoughts on what the Democrats are supposed to do with this kind of thing? Now, we get into cash and Tulsi in a little bit. That's happening right now as we speak. But about him and Bondi and Hegseth, we get into nitpicking, right? Like how they're handling the Q and A, and could they have a better plan or could they coordinate better? They ask tougher questions. That's on the one hand. On the other hand, I'm like, this is all a farce. RFK is like, during the hearing yesterday, pretended like he's for vaccines. Now he has no idea what he's talking about, about the major programs that are going to be, you know, under his auspices. So, like, what is a useful, valuable use of Democrats time on a hearing such as this?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, look, we're looking. The no votes you're looking for are what Collins, Murkowski, McConnell and Cassidy. That's kind of like the four that people have ID that you need. So knowing that list, I mean, presumably the ways to reach them would be through talking about the fact that he's clearly pro choice and now he's pretending to be anti abortion. Maybe they don't believe him. I'm curious what you what you think about this pitch, Tim. The problem with attacking RFK is you kind of de facto end up siding with Big Pharma, the drug companies, the healthcare industry. Right. Which is not where I like, ideologically am. Like, I don't like those guys either. I also don't think it's smart politics. So the question is like, okay, how do you pick an enemy to kind of counteract that? I've noticed that the Wall Street Journal and their editorial page have decided that the enemy is trial lawyers. And they're saying that Kennedy is just going to open up a whole bunch more litigation pathways for his trial lawyer buddies and that he might personally profit from some of those lawsuits. And I'm just curious if you think that angle is effective. Like, I remember ATLA being an enemy from my John Edwards for president days back in 2004. People didn't love trial lawyers. I remember my dad referring to Edwards as an ambulance chaser and 24 year old me got very offended. But I don't know, is that an effective approach?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, I love going after trial lawyers, so that works for me. It is confusing to me that like the Republicans are now the party of trial lawyers and just love, they love passing legislation that lets people randomly sue. Like that was, that's what underlines the don't say gay bill in Florida. You know, you can sue the school if a teacher says something too gay. And so it underlines the bounty abortion bill in Texas. You can sue, you know, a woman or the provider if they break the law. Right. So there's a lot of new pathways for suing. I don't know if that's really going to land. I don't know. I'm torn. I think the Medicaid, why I wanted to play the Medicaid clips and the whole hearing was a fucking just farce and clown show. So we could have played many clips. But to me, I think that the Medicaid ones are probably the best bet for Democrats. And I think that like this is a program that serves poor people and it serves a lot of poor working class whites in red states who are for Donald Trump. And Trump has been pretty deft at claiming that he's not actually coming after the services that they like. So I think going after that and I guess going after the Republicans for being phony, it does create a pickle here on this whole thing. Right? It's just like the whole thing is ridiculous. I mean, you have Thom Tillis, you have corporate Republicans out there being like, boy, I really love this guy that sued companies on behalf of environmentalists, sued pharmaceutical companies on behalf of anti vax kooks. So like maybe going after them instead of going after RFK and trying to wedge is is a better strategy because I hear you like, defending the status quo is not really a winner for Democrats. You saw polis try to navigate this a little bit.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it's not really a winner. I mean, then there's the specific stories. I mean, I don't know how much you guys have talked about the Samoa incident on the show, but I do think it is. It tells you everything you need to know about this guy. Like the quick and dirty version, right, is in American Samoa, there was this horrible incident where two babies died because the nurses administering the vaccine mixed the measles vaccine with an expired esthetic and it killed these two children. It was this horrible, horrific mistake and it ultimately though, the two nurses went to jail for it. But it led to Samoa stopping vaccinations for about 10 months and then starting them up again. And then obviously people were very hesitant. So into the breach jumps RFK Jr and the anti vax crowd and this sort of information vacuum and climate of fear. And according to NBC News, what he was hoping to do was basically set up a study comparing the health outcomes of vaccinated and unvaccinated babies in Samoa and what inevitably happens, right, someone comes from New Zealand, they have the measles, an outbreak starts, like dozens and dozens of kids die. In response, Samoa launches this vaccination campaign and in the midst of that, RFK is still having, as people say, no, no, no, just give them vitam and vitamin C. But fast forward six weeks, 95% of kids in Samoa are vaccinated and there's no more measles related deaths. But just like the fact that what this man wanted was to run this giant, you know, eugenics adjacent experiment on babies, I think kind of tells you everything you need to know about him and how he will approach overseeing the medical community. I mean like this is fucking deadly, completely unethical, immoral stuff that he's going to do. And like this is his approach, this is what he believes.

[Tim Miller]

Just a couple other thoughts are coming to me. As you say that like on the one hand, I do think vaccinations are just broadly, generally popular. I know that maybe just focusing on the reemergence of the whooping cough is something that is useful. I do wonder though, is there a way just to sort of reframe this whole thing back to him being a Kennedy? These guys like Trump and Kennedy, they're pretending that they're going after the status quo, but they're not really. They're taking cash for themselves. They've now aligned themselves with the richest men in the world. I don't know, I'm just spitballing live here, but I do think maybe that's a more fruitful line than I guess, going after him for being a kook. I don't know.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, I guess going against, you know, the establishment or American royalty, that could work. But I think, I mean, you know this better than I do. Like what the MAGA movement loves more than anything else is a convert. Whether you are a person of color or you're gay or you were once a liberal. That's why they love Tulsi. That's why they love RFK Jr those are the people that prove that they've been right all along over in the MAGA movement. And the libs were stupid So I think that's kind of his entire power is his last name.

[Tim Miller]

It has to be somewhat appealing to you though, when you think about the incoming administration, that you do have a far left polygamist, environmentalist. Right. And you have somebody representing Aloha in Hawaii. A lot of diverse. That's kind of a woke cabinet in a way.

[Tommy Vitor]

It is spirit of Aloha.

[Tim Miller]

Let's talk about Tulsi for a second. Some of the reporting people in the Hill say that their concerns about Tulsi, but Tulsi had Tom Cotton doing the intro for her. I mean, like, if there's ever going to be somebody that was going to be opposed to her, it'd be that she's totally flipped on all of her, you know, all of the things like FISA and that the national security Republicans don't like. So I don't know. I'm wondering what you think about the Tulsi nomination.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, she's not remotely qualified to do the job, but I think it's just good to remember kind of first principles here. I mean, like, they're like, oh, she was in the military, she had a security clearance. That doesn't mean she had access to any information. It doesn't mean she knows how the intelligence community works. It doesn't mean she knows how to manage all of these people. It does seem like her biggest problem is her willingness to believe bad information and discount good information, especially when the bad information is coming from like the Russians or the Syrians and the good information is coming from the US but then the second biggest problem I see to have with her or I see for her is that she is a liar. You probably talked about her trip to Syria in 2017 where she met with Assad for three hours.

[Tim Miller]

You're not a daily listener of the pod, I take it?

[Tommy Vitor]

Of course I am. Of course I am. I do nothing else. Met with Assad's wife for an hour and then met with Assad again. When she got back to the U.S. her staff was trying to scramble to like report to the Ethics committee why she met with Assad, since that wasn't cleared in advance and they left like all the Google Doc changes on. So some reporter found the Google Doc and could see all their spins and lies. Long story short, she goes to Lebanon, dips over to Damascus for a meeting with Assad and pretended that it was spontaneous. She got there, Assad just wanted to meet with her. But actually the meeting was within one hour of her arrival. So she lied to her colleagues, she lied to her own staff. She lied to the Ethics Committee about all this. And it just leads you to the question, why is a general matter. I'm not, like, offended by meeting with adversaries, but meeting with Assad in the middle of this brutal civil war where he's killing half a million people is bizarre and gross. And also, did you know that she brought her spouse and she went with Dennis Kucinich, who brought his wife. Like, who brings a plus one to a civil war.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And then she spun for him. Right. That's the other thing again, it's like. Because that's the quick response you hear from her defenders. Right. It's like, well, we should have open dialogue. It's like, okay, well, I mean, we can. I don't know. I'm probably less keen on open dialogue than you and Tulsi, but okay, that's fine. That's one thing. But then it's like you have the dialogue and then you come back and you are a propaganda tool for Assad. Right. And that is the thing. And then our own intelligence services at the time, this is a story I was reading yesterday, you know, said that they caught chatter of Hezbollah terrorists they were monitoring that were talking about how Tulsi was meeting with the big guy.

[Tommy Vitor]

So. Joe Biden, I assume.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Joe Biden. Joe Biden. 10 for the big guy. It's always a question, who is the big guy out there?

[Tommy Vitor]

So many big guys.

[Tim Miller]

To me, it is just, just. It's absurd to think that national security Republicans would go along with this. But, like, at this point, we've learned that they don't actually care about anything besides suckling up to Trump. But I guess as somebody that has actually had security briefings and been kind of involved in these conversations where you're getting intelligence and trying to translate it and figure out how to use it, what to do with it? Like, what would be the legitimate concerns that people would have about somebody like Tulsi managing that process?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, like, ultimately, Tulsi and the agency she runs is going to be charged with putting together the pdb, the President's Daily briefing, which is the most, you know, crown jewels of all US Intelligence on all the issues happening in the world that Trump needs to know about. And is she going to bring in credible stuff? Is she going to put that document together in an ideological way? Is she going to continue to disbelieve, you know, the CIA or other components, the intelligence community, when they say Assad used chemical weapons and blame somebody else? So I think the question Is like what information is she getting? How is she constructing that document for Donald Trump and filtering intelligence information to the President, United States and other top decision makers. And on top of that like every National Security Council meeting will usually begin with a lay down from the DNI of the most relevant information on like whatever the topic is, Afghanistan, you know, Yemen, whatever it is. So she's going to be kind of doing the PDB process and then repeating that in every national security meeting. It's like, why her? No one can answer the question why does this person make sense for this job other than some kind of payback for a political favor?

[Tim Miller]

Well, I mean she's probably the most in line with Donald Trump out of all the nominees as far as like processing intelligence and what you like turning out something that. Yeah, turning out something that you like. I mean Tulsi like got tricked by Gateway pundit.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

And that's kind of what Trump's looking for, I think in somebody that is going to take the craziest shit that advances his narrative that is out there in the ether and like presents that as the main narrative and just, you know, blocks out or pushes out things that are contrary. Right. I mean that's what her skill set is, I think.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And she's also, I mean, I don't know the things that the kind of the some parts of the MAGA movement liked about her anti surveillance pro Snowden. She seems to have flip flopped on a lot of that. Like it sounds like she's now in favor of section 702 intelligence collection which is the US government working with American technology companies to get access to stuff. It sounds like she was a huge proponent in 2019. I think she went on Rogan and said that she would drop all charges against Edward Snowden if she were president. Now it seems like she flipped on that position. So I guess I just don't know where Tulsi stands on anything anymore.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean I guess I'm going to sound like a cliche. Never Trump cuck. But it is noteworthy in these hearings. I've had to suffer through that. Like all of the controversial that is out there in MAGA world that we say are conspiracies and that they're like, no, I don't know, there's, there's really something here. We're just asking questions about that across the board on all of that stuff. These guys are flipping. Right. I mean Tulsi is flipping her view on Snowden and on the corruption within the intelligence community. RFK is flipping his view on vaccines. When you get to Cash next, he's flipped on the January 6th cop beaters. That trend you would think would be noticed at some point. The QAnon cash flipped on, you know, and all of these things. A like generic msnbc. Watching wine mom who we love, love them, who has no experience on anything would have been more correct than the people that are now nominated to run these agencies who have now flipped their views to match the view of the generic MSNBC wine bomb. I do think that's a noteworthy trend.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And I guess that's all that's required for Tom Cotton. He's just like that credulous.

[Tim Miller]

He's like, all right, cool.

[Tommy Vitor]

It works for me. 702 supporting Snowden's staying in jail. I'm good.

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of credulous, I'm just getting pissed her and Pister as we go on here today. Tommy, I'm gonna have a heart attack before I get into this administration. I was just thinking backward. I am still mad about the about Trump advance. I'm just like the more we talk about it, this was happening live so I'm processing it live. And the poor family members of these victim of this plane crash like have to watch the president rant about dei. Yeah, I mean that's just the whole thing is pisses me off.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, all the secretaries in jd, I mean they just got up there and they just fluffed the President and said how amazing his leadership had been. It's like, I don't know, sounds like he did a commerce call.

[Tim Miller]

Some of the worst people. All right, credulous. You talked about how credulous Tom Cotton was. He's got nothing on Jamie Lankford and Thom Tillis. Here's James Langford today. There's a social media, national media Persona of who Cash is and then there's who he actually is. There's this cartoon of him that's out there that he's mean, hateful, intense. And then when you meet him, you think, where is that person that's being described? I don't know. James, have you ever watched a show about a. About a bad guy? I don't know, maybe Tony Soprano can be pretty charming in a 20 minute meeting. Like you can. You can be a person that is advanced, hateful, intense and mean material and conspiratorial material and then also be able to pull it together for 20 minutes to suck up to a senator.

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh, there's a bad social media perception and Persona of Cash Patel out there. Whose fault is that? Maybe him tweeting that he's going to chainsaw off the heads of various elected officials or going on every right wing podcast and talking about his enemies list and all the evil happening in the deep state and lying about his background and pretending he was, you know, the lead prosecutor. And Benghazi when he was just like a junior lawyer kind of helping out on the edges. Like, yeah, there's a bad sort of sentiment out there about Cash Patel because he's an unqualified, deeply dishonest person. And that seems like a bad thing for an FBI director.

[Tim Miller]

He's a clown that had a podcast on Epoch Times, which as the conspiracy website.

[Tommy Vitor]

I didn't know that actually.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. He was a competitor of yours. You didn't see him on the charts, but he had a podcast on the Epoch Times with Cash's Corner. I've had to suffer through it a few times. He didn't. Doesn't even deny any of the things that people say he said. It's just like. Well, I guess that's just part of the kayfabe. It's like wwe. It's like Rowdy Rowdy Piper getting on the mic. It's like, that's not the real Rowdy Rowdy. You know, he's just. He just. He's just saying what he said about Jake the Snake Roberts because. Because that's part of the show. I guess that's their argument.

[Tommy Vitor]

A lot of people confuse is a good person with nice. To me, you hear that with a lot of these kind of bro influencers who like, oh, Trump was great when I met him at UFC 64 or what. It's like, it doesn't mean he's a good person. The single most troubling story about Kash Patel to me, Tim, comes from his time at the Pentagon at the very end of the Trump administration. Long story short, there was a hostage being held in the kind of Nigeria area. The Pentagon launched this rescue mission. They had a bunch of Navy SEALs in an airplane who are going to parachute out of that plane, land, traipse over, like, walk a couple miles and rescue this guy. And to conduct a mission like that, you need to get permission to fly into the country's airspace, in this case, Nigerian airspace. And they're about to turn on this operation. Green light it. Cash says the State Department got us access into Nigerian airspace. And then right as the plane with the Navy SEALS in it is about to fly into that airspace, they figure out that he had lied and he just made that up. And so Kash Patel nearly Blows up what was ultimately a successful rescue mission. And also, I mean, the worst case scenario is you fly a bunch of US Military aircraft into Nigerian airspace and it gets shot down. And to this day, no one knows why he lied about it. Like Mark Esper, the Secretary of Defense at the time, writes about it in his book. There were top Pentagon officials screaming at Cash, and he was like, who cares? Everything worked out in the end. And it's just the most irresponsible thing I've ever heard.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, I just want to say, just for the record, in case there are lawyers listening, that that story that Tommy shared was shared by Tommy. That is alleged. And former Secretary of Defense Mark Esper also shared it. But Cash is currently suing Olivia Troy, my friend, for relaying that same story on msnbc. So I just want to say that if there are any lawsuits pending, that was Tommy Vitor that said that. And I'm open to any facts that might emerge.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm very open to any facts. If Cash Patel wants to come on this show or any of the shows on crooked media and correct the record and correct me, I am absolutely willing to listen. This is what I read.

[Tim Miller]

That's great. You're a fair questioner. I've watched some of your interviews. Speaking of Cash lying, I've got a clip here from today's hearing that I would like to play. Stu Peters.

[Donald Trump]

Does that name ring a bell?

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm sorry, what?

[Tim Miller]

Are you familiar with Mr. Stu Peters? Not off the top of my head. He made eight separate appearances on his podcast. He promoted outrageous conspiracy theories and worked.

[Donald Trump]

With a prominent neo Nazi.

[Tim Miller]

This is like when my mother was like, sarah, was there a glass bong in your room? I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, what?

[Tommy Vitor]

Is there marijuana at the party?

[Tim Miller]

She's like, glass bong. I'm like, ooh, that doesn't ring a bell. And she's like, this glass bottle. Eight times he's been on the podcast. A guy named Arjun Modi, who's a GOP Senate staffer, came to Cash's defense on this. I tweeted about this exchange, and he came to Cash's defense. He writes this in context. Cash did over 1,000 media interviews submitted to the committee. I don't remember what I had for lunch yesterday. Okay, what do you think about that, Tommy? Do you think there's anybody who's done eight podcast interviews with you who couldn't recognize your name?

[Tommy Vitor]

I am forgettable. I do.

[Tim Miller]

You are just a white guy named Tom.

[Tommy Vitor]

Just a D.E.I. hire it just. What that story tells me is the degree to which Republican senators see things happen where they know a nominee that they're about to vote for just lied and just don't care and they just think it's a game and they think that deniability is all that matters and the truth is irrelevant and it sucks. It's incredibly frustrating because what do you do there? You know, it's like the worst fight in a relationship ever. It's like when you say to someone, you know you did this and they just won't give you an inch and they give no quarter or they deny it and you know they're lying. But where do you go from there?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I might revisit it, I guess. I don't know, I'm feeling like the joker. But in the afternoon session of this, I might just kind of revisit Cash.

[Tommy Vitor]

Pay My Money Stu Peters.

[Tim Miller]

I'm sorry, I know this might seem silly, but I've gotta go back to the Stu Peters thing. Does it ring a bell now that you've been reminded you did eight podcast interviews with them?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, that's a good way to do it. As a general matter, what I think love to see every single senator at these hearings do is stop giving fucking speeches and just use your eight minutes for questions. But that's a perennial problem.

[Tim Miller]

I've been torn on this cuz I've also been giving the Democratic senator shit. I had Mark Kelly on this pod last week and I was like, why don't you guys coordinate better? He didn't have a good answer to that. Really? I thought his questions were good, but some of the others weren't. That was with the crust of Hegseth hearing. But I don't know man, if the Republicans are going to vote for this guy anyway, are we sure that giving a speech that goes on YouTube or TikTok isn't a better use of time than like asking him questions he's going to lie about? That's a genuine question. I'm kind of going back and forth on what is a useful. Like if you thought that you could stop it, then I think strategy is important. But if we're just accepting that the Republicans are totally shameless and are going to vote in these unqualified people, then maybe the strategy mindset that changes a little bit. I don't know.

[Tommy Vitor]

I. Look, I think use your time to get information, try to pin them down on things, whether it's policy or perjury. But I mean, if it's a really good speech, it's an incredibly compelling, passionate speech that goes super viral on TikTok. That's great. But like, I was watching Peter Welch spend.

[Tim Miller]

He was horrible.

[Tommy Vitor]

Several minutes talking about how much, you know, he was like a RFK scholar in college. I really like Peter Welch. I think he's like good on policies and a lot of great stuff. But I was like, what are we doing here? It's like four minutes of your time.

[Tim Miller]

You also just know your skills, you know. Yeah, Peter Welsh is a nice person. He's fine. But maybe give your time over to somebody that knows what they're doing. Yeah, Amy Klobuchar was pretty good.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, that's what they did at the Jan6 committee, right? Like they kind of gave it to a prosecutor or gave it to one individual and let you really narrow in. It's much better way to go.

[Tim Miller]

You know, it'd be like if the Bulwark had a like weightlifting competition against crooked media. You know, I'd be like, don't. Probably don't put me in on that one. You know, like, put me, put me in on one of your events where I know where I. Where I can add some value. Is JVL your ringer, Joe Perdicone. I think losing Caputo is pretty big on that, unfortunately. But I don't know.

[Tommy Vitor]

Sam Stein.

[Tim Miller]

I've been over to crooked headquarters. I don't think the competition's going to be very stiff on the weightlifting. Oh, I had one more thing on cash. I think Tom Tillis might be my least favorite sender now, Tommy, the thing I want the most in the world, which means it won't happen, is I want the porn store pizza man to challenge him in a primary and beat him. Like, I just, I want it. I want it really badly. Tillis passed out a cash K money sign h bingo card game today that, you know, check the square if a Democrat says subjects such as deep state or enemies list or QAnon. And it's just like the problem with him is some of these guys. Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't pretend to be serious. So give me Marjorie Taylor Greene over this. Tom Tillis is condescending lectures about how the Democrats are the ones that are asking unfair questions amidst a hearing where you have legitimate questions about an incoming FBI director that was producing the January 6th choir. To act like that is some preposterous thing for the Democrats to bring up that you should just mock with your silly bingo card game. Like, fuck you, Tom Tillis. Like, what? What is this?

[Tommy Vitor]

You got a 44 year old guy with no relevant experience. Barely any relevant experience. Who's nominated to lead the FBI for a decade. Because Trump fired the last guy he nominated to leave the FBI for a decade after firing the first one. Jim Comey. Yeah. So we should be asking this dude questions. I mean, the enemies list thing is the part of that that pisses me off the most. It's in his book. He published a book with a list of enemies. Does that. If that does not bother you.

[Tim Miller]

And he talked about it a lot.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

On Several of those 1,000 podcasts he talked about it.

[Tommy Vitor]

It is exhausting. Yeah. Tom tells. He's up in 26. I guess he must have decided that this is the one he's gonna kind of go full mega on. They're never gonna like you. They're not gonna support you. You're not gonna get like. You're not gonna be your own man.

[Tim Miller]

I will say it was interesting. Much more on Cash Tomorrow. We got Andrew Weissman on. But just one other thing that was interesting from today. He didn't ally the question about the pardons for the cop beaters. He specifically said he disagreed with that.

[Tommy Vitor]

I did not see that. Interesting.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I found that interesting. I mean, it's fake.

[Tommy Vitor]

Probably have to say it. Yeah. For the building.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And I'm sure he cuts the deal behind the scenes. He calls Don Jr. Or whatever and is like, just, you know, tell Dabby. Maybe he calls Shadow President Elon Musk. I don't know. Maybe he calls Donald directly. But it's just like, hey, I'm just gonna. You gotta give me one here so that we can get through.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's a weird one, though. Like, who is that for? It's for the building, I guess for the FBI when you get there. But does it get you anything from the senators who vote on you, who give you the job?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Who's the fourth senator that would've cared about that? That's a good question. I don't know. Not Thom Tillis. I wanted to. Your take also on. And there's just been this kind of clown omb. We're freezing and then we're rescissioning the freeze and then we're refreezing and then we're unfreezing. And a lot of the stuff kind of the details are going to bleed out. But the one area where they do seem to be pretty serious about freezing grants and funds is in foreign aid. And they brought up the fake story about the Gaza condoms as one of the things that they're going to freeze. That's not true. Actually, the condoms are going to Africa as part of the anti AIDS program, as part of pepfar, which was a Republican program initially, but they're going to cut that, cut all usaid. So I'm just kind of curious, given your experience in that world, what you think the potential ramifications of this are.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, I think they're calling it a freeze. I think we should assume that all of these programs are gone unless otherwise indicated and gone permanently.

[Tim Miller]

Right, but they didn't freeze, just to be clear, they did not freeze the aid to Israel in Egypt or Egypt.

[Tommy Vitor]

Which is for Israel.

[Tim Miller]

So heck of a job to the Egypt bagmen and to, you know, our friends who protested the genocide. Joe.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, well, yeah, the Egypt, the Egypt money is all about Israeli security operations. So I mean, in 2023 there was $63 billion of foreign aid. That's less than 1% of the federal budget. But as you know, Tim, when you do focus groups or polling, people think the foreign aid budget is closer to 10%. So there's political, you know, it's a.

[Tim Miller]

Political winner for sure.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. But like the money we're talking about goes to fund things like combating Ebola or Marburg virus outbreaks abroad, or monitoring the avian flu or cleaning up mines and cluster munitions that didn't blow up in places like Ukraine or Laos in Cambodia. But it also, you know, there's also money for like, you know, education in the, in Jordan, the country which gives us enormous leverage in political influence in these places. And if we just turn that off, like that influence is now gone. And you mentioned, I mean like there is a lot of political attacks on foreign aid. But you mentioned pepfar. I mean, PEPFAR is George Bush's greatest accomplishment. It saved 25 million people. It was like universally supported recently. I forget which Republican senator started attacking it because like $4,000 were accidentally spent on abortion services in some country and that money was refunded. And I don't know if that got it on the chopping block, but now it sounds like there's AIDS drugs on the shelf in clinics that they're not allowed to distribute. It's insane.

[Tim Miller]

There's also the soft power and you're kind of forgetting at this in the Jordan example, but the soft power element to this, particularly in the context of China. The thing to me that's the most incoherent about this is you've got some elements of the Trump administration and Trump world that are very saber rattly about China and China hawks and the threats from China and this great power struggle that we're in. And part of that is the fact that China has been buying influence with a lot of countries throughout the world, particularly some in our hemisphere now doing programs such as the one you described in Jordan. Right. And so if we kind of get off the playing field there, you know, you already saw this little dust up with Colombia. If you're petro, like, why don't you. Like, well, I don't know. I guess I'll just deal with China. I'll do trade with China. Right. They might feel like a more reliable ally right now. Like, to me, it just undermines the whole China hawk element of what they're. Of what they're arguing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Totally. I mean, the China infrastructure projects often are devastating for countries down the road because they create these debt traps that the countries can't get out of. But you know what? They don't come with.

[Tim Miller]

You're saying you can't trust the ccp, that's not sinophobic. Now that you're on the now you're on the Bulwark podcast, you can, you can say it without any accusations of.

[Tommy Vitor]

Sinophobia, war and pandemic. We're on the show, we're talking about the ccp. But the Chinese money doesn't come with any strings attached around, like, human rights, you know, so it's a little. A little bit easier. But you're right. I mean, it's not just that we're turning off money that gives us influence in places and China can fill the breach. It's that we're actively being dickheads to people in Panama, Colombia, Denmark, for absolutely no reason. And these are like, Denmark's a NATO ally. Like, okay, play this out for me, Tim. The United States military sends a whole bunch more US Military members to our base in Greenland, and we just decide we've annexed that and occupied it. Like, what happens? Does NATO have an Article 5 responsibility to respond to this US invasion of Greenland on behalf of Denmark? Like, this whole thing is just. It's like a farce in some ways. It's insane. But this is kind of the reality of what we're talking about right now. And it makes us look like clowns and unreliable when you talk to folks.

[Tim Miller]

In, like, advocacy world. And is there anything in particular that they're the most alarmed about? I guess in the first week and a half, particularly kind of with the pod save the world hat on?

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, the most interesting kind of thread I saw on this was by a guy named Atul Gawande who got into all the public health projects that were being impacted by this, the funding freeze. And that, I think, was where people's heads instantly went just in terms of the risk to Americans, like something that could boomerang back on us pretty quickly.

[Tim Miller]

I want to do a little politics and then every time you're on, I like to give you a world leader quiz, looking close with that. But I was talking with Chris Hayes on Tuesday and he's got the new book about the attention economy and how Trump has successfully leveraged this. And this is, I guess, kind of related to our first topic and the the darkest sense of how Trump has leveraged this leverage, so to speak, this tragedy outside of Reagan airport. But one of the things we're talking about were the Democrats just are struggling with this in part because they have to kind of go through this deprogramming from what was a smart politician behavior 15 years ago versus what is smart politician behavior now. And I played him a clip of Gretchen Whitmer. And I hate to pick on Gretchen Whitmer because I think this is across the board something that all Democrats are doing. But I just want to use it as a example because she is type of person that might be up in 2028 and because it is just spot on what, what we're talking about here. So let's listen to Gretchen Whitmer on cbs.

[Tulsi Gabbard]

I think this is the story of Michigan, right? We're a very diverse state. We are a state that tends to go back and forth and like some balance in our politics. And I've won twice with big margins within two years of Donald Trump also carrying Michigan. And so, so as I said in my recent address, I'm not out looking for fights. I'm always looking to collaborate first. Won't back down from an important one, that's for sure. But I got a job to do. And we're going to stay focused on moving forward and trying to find common ground where we can.

[Tommy Vitor]

What's the lesson in that split ticket situation for you as governor now?

[Tulsi Gabbard]

I think it's to keep listening to the people. And it's part of what I talk about in my book that we've just made for young adults. These are lessons that you can use at any age. Right. Learning how to listen is a superpower that not enough people tap into.

[Tim Miller]

All right, Tommy, I want you to pretend we're at a DNC media training session. We just played that clip and you're talking to the candidates. What kind of feedback do you have for Big Gretch?

[Tommy Vitor]

I Guess where I'm struggling with this is I do think that voters want to hear about common ground and working together and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But. But right now we're an opposition party with no power, so it doesn't fucking matter if we work together with them or not. They don't need us, they don't want us, they don't care. And so I think you have to act accordingly and raise the awareness and the cost of some of the most egregious things Trump is doing. And that gets complicated when you're talking about areas where clearly Democrats are offsides, like immigration. The Lake and Riley act got a bunch of Democratic votes. It does things that I find, like, indefensible on a policy level, like just deporting people accused of a crime that just discards all due process rights for people in this country. I think mostly it's like, be fucking interesting, talk like a human being, pick a fight, go into places that are unusual so that whatever you're doing gets shared on social media. I mean, Tim, you and I both spend a lot of times in safe spaces with people who agree with us, like msnbc, whatever. But, you know, I went on Fox the other day with Jesse Waters, and that interview is. I heard from more people. It got more pickup than, like, anything else I've done. So I don't know, maybe we need a little more. A little more combat. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I've got some feedback for you in your Jesse Waters interview. I want to stick with Webmer here first. Or not Webmer, just with the Democratic challenge broadly, because, like, I'd like to rally, act as an example. So you said, right, that, like, they don't need us, they don't want us. Republicans kind of do need Democrats actually, to get stuff done, and we'll see what they can do. I think that they're going to be in a big challenge on the Hill to get things passed. Republican Study Committee put out a statement the other day that I think 180 House members that were like, we're only going to vote for a reconciliation bill if it cuts the deficit. And if you go back and listen to the Liam Donovan article interview I did a couple weeks ago, like, you can hear how that's impossible, Right? So, you know, they're going to come to the Democrats for bailouts on budget stuff.

[Tommy Vitor]

So get something for them to get.

[Tim Miller]

To the 60 votes on the Lake and Riley thing, maybe that was the right strategic thing to do, but maybe not. Or, like, are people really going to be voting on the Lake And Riley act in 2026. We're 20 months away from another election. I don't know, actually. I mean, is saying that we're going to collaborate with the Trump administration really getting you anything?

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, it's just like the most anodyne talking point. And so whether or not those are the right words to say, who's going to hear that? Right? Like, well, there's, I mean, no pickup of this, of just kind of very boring comments about.

[Tim Miller]

I've played it twice on the podcast now because it was so boring. So there's so kudos to you for that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Listen, like on the politics question, like, I don't know, the politics for Ruben Gallego in Arizona are probably very different than a lot of other members. Right. And Ruben was like, very vocally for the Lake and Riley Act. And will people be voting on immigration in the midterms? I don't know. I mean, Trump's goal presumably is to lock down the border and solve all our immigration problems. And it doesn't mean they'll stop talking about it or making up caravans. But does that reduce the salience? Like, I don't know. It's interesting, bet. But yeah, no, I think we're an opposition party and we have to act accordingly and talk like people and be nimble and be interesting.

[Tim Miller]

Has anybody done well in the last week and a half? Again, it would be one thing to be complaining about this in December, but he had an inauguration. We've had all these hearings. We had this press conference today. There have been plenty of opportunities to go say interesting things, to go to different types of places. Is there anybody that you think is really nailing it?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, like Congressman Pat Ryan sort of been saying and doing interesting things, trying to be out there, trying to be clear cut, clear eyed. I mean, I think, I think what you're getting at and what Democrats are feeling is that there is a leadership void. We have, you know, Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries are the leaders in both houses, in the Senate or in Congress. But there's not a Democratic leader. Like, there's not a nominee.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, Schumer talked about how aroused people. That was pretty good.

[Tommy Vitor]

That was hard to watch.

[Tim Miller]

I'm all right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, flaccid little tepid. Yeah. So, you know, I just go to.

[Tim Miller]

Like, look, this is the thing. In 2016, I used to make fun of it. So I'm the person I used to make fun of now. So I will admit it. But in 2016, when I was working for Jeb, we would mock the defense of Trump among Winnie the Pooh and the Tuxedo. Defense of Trump back then in 2015 was like, but he fights. He might have some issues in his personal life. We want somebody that fights these evil Obama bros. Right. And that didn't resonate with me then because, you know, I think you made some mistakes, but I wasn't, I didn't really feel deep in my core that you needed to be fought by the stupidest American. But so that obviously is why I'm disconnected from my former party. But like now I feel that you could sell me on that like a. But she fights or but he fights. As somebody that I don't agree with on every issue, I want to fight her too. That I know is going to go there and go to the mat against this farcical shit, this sham that we have to, that we've been subjected to for the last week and a half. And it's like nobody's really given me that. I know, see a little bit, you know, you mentioned Pat Ryan, Chris Murphy, a little bit, but no guttural, nothing from the gut.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yes, I want to fight her. I also think obstruction works. Mitch McConnell built an entire career off of that. So the senators should, should find ways to bog down everything Trump does. It's also just like when Barack Obama won in 2008, got 365 electoral votes. We had huge majorities in the House and the Senate. Did Republicans wipe their hands and give up? No, they fought everything we did tooth and nail and they drove down our favorables into the midterms of 2010. And that to me is the roadmap. It's just all focused on the midterms.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I've been saying the word sham too much. So people, I gotta, I gotta get out my, really get out my. The thoris or farce. I mean, I've been saying too much sham to. I don't know. We'll see. There's a lot of bad stuff. Speaking of farces, you went on Waters World, as you mentioned earlier. If we're going to make fun of the other Democrats and give them some feedback, I've got some feedback for you. So I want to listen to a clip of you on Waters World.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'd love to hear your media training. How many genders are there, Tommy? How many genders are there, Tommy? The honest answer, Desi. I don't care. I'm a libertarian. I don't care. You can be what you want to be. True.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I'm not a Democrat and that we know what happened. I didn't know you were a Libertarian.

[Tommy Vitor]

I actually run the New Hampshire Democratic Party's Libertarian Party. Speed. Yeah, I really, first of all, I don't think that anyone who goes on an unserious show should treat, be forced to treat unserious questions like they're serious. The subjects I was sent in advance were like, we're going to talk about Biden's legacy, the pardons and Democrats going forward. So that just gives you some insight. Also, though I am libertarian on most social issues, I think the role of the government should be to leave people the alone. If you decide your gender is something other than male and female, good, good for you. Live your life however you want. If you want to have an abortion, the government should leave you the alone. I, I, I'm very much am a libertarian on like a whole basket of issues.

[Tim Miller]

The liberal Tarian moment is back. I just, I was just happy to hear it. I'd never heard you say you're a libertarian before. I was like, man, we've got more, we've got more in common than I thought.

[Tommy Vitor]

I wasn't expecting that.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know, I might have used it as an opportunity to go after Jesse to be like, yeah, Jesse, you know, I, I don't know. I think that they're two genders, but like, sometimes people, you know, process like their alignment, which with each gender differently. You see this in sex as well. You know, like they're men with two balls, they're men with one ball, they're men who gave both of their balls over to Donald Trump.

[Tommy Vitor]

Wow. Okay.

[Tim Miller]

You know, like you, like that'd be one thing to do. Like there are only a couple ways to do a marriage, right? You can have a closed marriage, you can have an open marriage, or you could have a closed marriage where you cheat on your wife with a woman that works for you and you're a sex pest at the office. Like, that might have been another thing to consider. I'm just spitballing here.

[Tommy Vitor]

Different, those are different approaches and I think they all worked. The one thing I thought about after the fact that I should have done was just be like, can we talk about Dominion voting or what was the one? Anything they'd been sued for, for various defamation cases. Just try to repeatedly bring that up. That's a next time thing.

[Tim Miller]

Dominion. All right, I've got, I think you should keep going on there. Is there anything else you want to do? Just generally speaking, like bro pods, crypto. Like what, like what do you think could be a useful use of your time. Now using the Jesse Waters appearance is kind of like a training room.

[Tommy Vitor]

I want to practice what I preach a little bit. Get out some more. I really respect the fact, Tim, that you do a lot of adversarial stuff like you're kind of at press conferences.

[Tim Miller]

That was not a fish for compliments.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, listen, you found one fish on.

[Tim Miller]

In seriousness though, like what is actually useful. Sometimes it's not actually useful. Like me yelling at. At Clay Travis I find kind of satisfying. But am I convincing it? You know what I mean? Is that useful? I don't know.

[Tommy Vitor]

I've been thinking about this a lot. I've actually taken your counsel. I'm happy to be public about this. I find Steve Bannon very interesting. I listen to his show often. I think when you listen to Bannon talk, you're usually like a couple weeks ahead of the curve on where the MAGA movement is going. I would like to better understand what he thinks Trump 2.0 is like. I'd love to press him on whether the MAGA populism he's voted for is represented when you have billionaire liberal tech oligarchs sitting on stage and Elon running huge swaths of the administration. I went on a barstool show when I was in New York. I want to do more stuff where we're just. I hate the fucking platforming debate. I'm done with the platforming debate where people are platformed and I just want to go into places where there's a little more. I don't debate. I hate the Ben Shapiro owns a 19 year old content. But a conversation with someone that disagrees with you vociferously, like that's a good thing.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. And I just. And particularly the non political. This is I guess what I'm trying to think of. I think it's more challenging. But I think it'd be valuable for you and all your fellow bro. Probably not Lovett, but Favreau and other fellow bros. Pat Ryan's to go on non political conservative coded shows.

[Tommy Vitor]

Totally right.

[Tim Miller]

Like because I think that there's limited, maybe minor value in me yelling at Clay Travis. I think there'd be very real value and go again going on the barstools, the Theo Bonds, some of this other kind of stuff. The Aiden Roth like the streamers. Doing some of that I think would be. Would be useful. I do. It is all kind of tied up in crypto.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Do you. Do you own any crypto?

[Tommy Vitor]

I own like a little Tiny bit. I wish I owned a lot more.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have any regrets over that? Because I've been thinking about this lately. Yeah, I'm so fucking pissed about the Trump coin thing and how this whole thing is just like such an obvious fraud and like how so many of these coins are such an obvious fraud and like how these rug pulls are going to screw people over. And it's been making me mad, but I've been doing some self examination and I'm wondering if part of my anger is related to the fact that I've left so much money on the table. So I'm wondering what you think about that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, we all missed a generational wealth opportunity. I lived in San Francisco in 2015. If I just listened to like one nice nerd who said, hey, you should buy Ethereum or whatever it was at the time, it would have been cool. A couple thoughts on this, Tim. I think we all have to stop saying like, bro tech bro, crypto bros, because it's obviously like, I'm a, I'm a pod bro. It's obviously pejorative and condescending and like, you know, I think they don't like it. It's no mystery why. Whatever comes after that, leave it to the libs.

[Tim Miller]

More speech codes for me. All right, I can't say bro. I've got to say Latin. Yes, I get. Whatever, Tommy. All right. We can say what we want.

[Tommy Vitor]

We can say what we want, but we should probably not to be surprised when people tune out everything after.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, fair.

[Tommy Vitor]

I was talking to Ro Khan about this the other day. One thing I think Democrats miss is there is a piece of the crypto story that is aspirational. It's not just like get rich quick, but there is that. It's also anti establishment. It's people who felt like they were sticking it to the big banks in the system and kind of operating outside of the control of, you know, whatever they. They're kind of pushing against. And I do think Democrats can sound overly negative in like, who are just oppositional to this stuff. So we have to, we have to capture part of that narrative in the hopeful message, but also talk about the fact that Trump coin and meme coins and so much of this stuff is a grift. It is a Ponzi scheme. It is going to hurt people. You're going to have more like kind of SBF collapses and Luna Terra collapses and there need to be like regulations that protect people. So that's the other part, part of the message.

[Tim Miller]

It is tough, right? That's that's my problem with the whole Roe talking point on all this. Right. It's like, okay, I've got to be more open minded towards the Ponzi scheme that's getting the worst people in the world rich. I guess. All right, sure. That's good.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's just about how you talk to people. It's just about like persuasion and hearing people and trying to like not make them feel attacked. And I think, you know, Biden did some good things trying to regulate these tech companies. It was obviously long past time, but. But in the process, seems like we radicalized a lot of rich people who poured money into Donald Trump and Republican coffers.

[Tim Miller]

Final area. Before I get you on the where in the world is Carmen Sandiego pop quiz, I am curious about. You're monitoring the world. We're looking for positives out there. Not a lot of positives happening domestically. Do you have a favorite world leader? I wish I could like Milei. You know, he'd be right in my actual libertarian bones. But he wasn't such a suck up to Trump. And so I'm like, you know, I'm looking. Give me a, give me a lib. Give me a good lib around the world that I can be excited about.

[Tommy Vitor]

Anthony Albanese in Australia.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Tommy Vitor]

He doing anything for you?

[Tim Miller]

I know nothing about that person. That's a good project for me this weekend. Anthony Albanese, progressive.

[Tommy Vitor]

You can Google him. The problem is right now things are a little messy internationally. You don't see, you saw the Canadians. You said, trudeau, step down. There's a real chance that Pierre Poliev comes to power in Canada. The Conservative leader. We got, it looks like the G7. You got south Korea. They just had a little martial law incident. They're trying to prosecute, impeach and remove their president. That seems bad. The Germans are about to have an election. We got Elon kick it up. Dust for the far right party. So things are a little messy. Man, I don't know. There's not a lot. I'm especially hopeful. I mean, Keir Starmer and the Labor Party, they had a rough start, but they're going to be in power for a while. They could do some good things. Does that help? David Lammy, Foreign secretary in the uk I like him a lot. Know him a little personally.

[Tim Miller]

David Lammy. All right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Big New Yorker piece on him this week.

[Tim Miller]

I'll check out that New Yorker piece. I'm just looking for hope anywhere. All right. That takes us to the final topic. You know that George W. Bush was embarrassed when he was asked to name random foreign leaders. And all the. All the lips were so excited to make fun of him for not knowing that. And since you have a podcast about the world, I'd like to ask you about that. I've got some friends who are traveling through Asia.

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh, God.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not going to know where you are this winter. And so I'd like for you to tell us the Prime Minister of Japan or the president of Vietnam or the Prime Minister of Thailand. Any of those three world leaders. Can you get any of those?

[Tommy Vitor]

Would you say Thailand is Japan?

[Tim Miller]

Thailand and Vietnam?

[Tommy Vitor]

Thabison.

[Tim Miller]

Thabison is which one?

[Tommy Vitor]

Thailand.

[Tim Miller]

Hmm.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

Current. The prime minister is Shinwarata, actually. Are you sure? But maybe there's. Are there multiple. I don't know what the Thai system is.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe it's a multiple.

[Tommy Vitor]

Just. I'm going to cheat on this one.

[Tim Miller]

You're Googling?

[Tommy Vitor]

No, no, I'm just going to Google Thavason.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah, no, Thavasin's been gone since August 24th, to be fair to you. Thavasin just went out August 2024, so that's pretty good. We'll give you half a point for that. Shinra is the new prime minister.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, and then. Yes, sorry, you're right. That's a good point. And then the Japanese have had, like, a bunch of leaders very recently. Sheba is the current one.

[Tim Miller]

That's correct. Sheba.

[Tommy Vitor]

Okay, good. What was the other country you asked about?

[Tim Miller]

Vietnam.

[Tommy Vitor]

No fucking clue.

[Tim Miller]

No clue about Vietnam. I can't pronounce this person's name, but it looks like since 21. Another new one. A lot of turnover over there. General. That's a general. Oh, watch out for Vietnam. Kong Kwong. General Kwong. So there you go. One and a half points out of three. That's a C. I don't know. But Pakistan.

[Tommy Vitor]

Shabazz Sharif. I brushed up.

[Tim Miller]

It's a good podcast, though. Pod Save the World. I do listen to it on the plane and I doze off to it, actually, usually. So it's kind of have you and Ben Rhodes. In my dreams, oftentimes when I'm on flight. So. I appreciate you. Thanks for coming back to the podcast. Do you have anything else you want to promote? Any other final thoughts for everybody?

[Tommy Vitor]

No, let's just. Let's come together, Libs. We can do this. We're going to make it through this. Two years. I get into some doomer places, like. I know you do, tim. Usually around 10pm at night on Sundays, and we got to pull up, got to pull up the plane.

[Tim Miller]

No Sunday scaries with Tommy Vitor, guys. We're going to be back here tomorrow with Andrew Weissman. Look forward to seeing y'all then.

[Unknown]

Peace, ice age, heat wave can't complain if the world's at large why should I remain? Walked away to another planet? Gonna find another place maybe when I can stand I move on to another day To a whole new town with a whole new way? Went to the porch to have a thought? Got to the door and again I couldn't stop? You don't know where and you don't know when? But you still got your words and you've got your friends? Walking on to another day? Work a little harder, work another way? Well, baby, I ain't got no plan? Float on maybe would you understand? Gonna float on maybe would you understand? Well, I flew hold on maybe what you understand? The days get shorter and the nights get cold I like the AR but this place is getting old I pack my belongs and I head from the coast? It might not be a life but I feel like I'm making the most? The days get longer and the nights smell green I guess it's not surprising but it's spring and die should lean I like songs about drifters Books about the same they both seem to make me feel a little less insane Walked on, off to another spot I still haven't gotten anywhere that I want Did I want love? Did I need to know? Why does it always feel like I'm cotton and under toe?

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.