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3. Ever wanted to stay on vacation longer? Us too. With VRBO's long stay discounts, you can stay longer and save more on select properties. Gotta love a win win book the perfect summer getaway today with VRBO Private vacation Rentals. Your future self will thank you later. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I am Punchy. I was up early. I've had a lot of caffeine. We're taping late and we've got a troublemaker with us. He was a graduate of Kenyon College. He was the van driver for then Senator Obama in 2007, and now he's the co host of a couple of podcasts called Pod Save America and Pod Save the World. It's Tommy Vitor. What's up, man?
- [01:21]
B
Buddy, great to see you. You and I were both up early. Me because my children were tripping away in the nanit. You because you were covering an FBI raid.
- [01:29]
A
Yeah, we're covering the FBI, but it's important to bring that to you because I want you to be prepared for the podcast. I texted you. Let's pull this up. Let's actually get a timestamp on this. I texted you this morning with a link to the news that we were breaking at the Bulwark about John Bolton's house being rated at 6. 32 Central, 4, 32 Pacific. You replied within 10 minutes.
- [01:52]
B
Yeah, it was not good.
- [01:53]
A
What was happening with that?
- [01:54]
B
I was up, I was making coffee. I just. Sometimes you're awake and you just gotta, you gotta, you gotta just power through.
- [02:00]
A
Your podcast needs a new. Like a sleep aid. Sponsor of some kind. Because that is way too early. All right, well, the news referenced Donald Trump's. What? National Security Advisor from his first term. The man with the mustache, John Bolton. His house was raided this morning. First reported right here by the Bulwark. Our friend Ben Wittes was on site. Later confirmed by the New York Post and others, more, you know, more regime friendly outlets that it was an FBI raid. In fact, he was being targeted for national security concerns. They say it was a national security probe, I believe it was. ABC has. And Benny Johnson, another crack reporter, has that. It's related to the classified documents issue from 2020 where he put some classified material in his book, maybe that hadn't been approved through the process. I don't know if that's the kind of thing that merits a home raid, but I was wondering what your reactions were bright and early this morning.
- [02:55]
B
Yeah, I mean, my first reaction is, if you're watching this and you're not a subscriber to the Bulwark on YouTube, do so because these guys are on the scene with breaking news. That's why you need to support independent media.
- [03:06]
A
Thanks.
- [03:06]
B
They're telling you stories. No one else is. So subscribe to the Bulwark on YouTube and also become a Bulwark plus subscriber because you're. I'm serious. I'm actually dead serious. I'm not kissing your ass. Like, Bulwarks doing awesome work. I love all the journalists you guys have added to the roster. I'm like, literally begging you for contact information for, like, Will Summer every other day or somebody on the team.
- [03:24]
A
So, anyway, we're doing our best.
- [03:26]
B
Done with that part.
- [03:27]
A
You're doing okay, too. It's. It makes me uncomfortable because I usually make fun of you when I talk about your outlets. I know there's like an asymmetry, but on the actual news I'm feeling up.
- [03:36]
B
It is, first of all. So this is a case probably from 2020.
- [03:41]
A
Yeah.
- [03:42]
B
And they had. They had to execute a search warrant. Warrant five years later. That's what happened here. This was the urgent matter we're talking about. This information that John Bolton has is so dangerous that it might get leaked into the world, even though we think it might have already been in his book, that they needed to raid his house and the cash. Patel had to tweet about it. That's what we're led to believe.
- [04:01]
A
And then Pam Bondi tweeted about it with the statement, america's safety isn't negotiable. America's safety was at threat, I guess if there was not a dawn raid of John Bolton's home for five year old material.
- [04:12]
B
Also, Tim, look, John Bolton, I don't agree with his politics. He could be kind of a prick. He seems like a smart guy. Do you think that Bolton, knowing this case was still looming in the background, seeing Donald Trump get reelected, wouldn't, like, bust out the shredder? I would have.
- [04:29]
A
I mean, that's the more nefarious version. It's good to know that you're a shredding documents type. But, oh, yeah, you know, John Bolton's lawyer couldn't have worked with their lawyers. And they said, okay, hey, you know, we think you might have some documents going. And that's how this stuff is worked out usually, like, because, you know, they'll. They'll all do the what about Mar A Lago stuff. Yes. The reason why Mar A Lago was right, because they went through that normal process by administration, asked them for materials. They said that they would give it. They didn't. They stonewalled them. Then they were caught lying about the fact that they weren't giving the materials. They refused to give them. And, you know, then eventually, you know, they. They raided Margo. Like, this was not, by all accounts, not that. Right. Like, this was a situation that was kind of adjudicated, actually five years ago, and now they felt like, you know, it's just hard to think about any even fake rationale for this other than we're trying to intimidate regime opponents. And this one was an opportunity since there was already an open investigation into it.
- [05:22]
B
Yeah. And look, in the Mar A Lago case, these classified documents were sitting in a room, like, next to the shitter at a club that we know had been penetrated by, like, Chinese spies a couple times, and it's full of foreign nationals, and anyone who wants can buy their way in, get access to Trump. So there was a real kind of national security concern. These documents sitting around, lots of people.
- [05:40]
A
Going through cougars, Chinese spies, you know, anybody else. You know, to your point about John Bolton being a prick, I don't know that he's having a lot of parties. Like, the Georgetown cocktail party circuit didn't really roll through John Bolton's house.
- [05:52]
B
No.
- [05:52]
A
I think he was kind of a private man.
- [05:53]
B
And until recently, he had a security detail who might prevent these kind of espionage matters from happening at his house. But then Donald Trump got rid of that. So, you know, lots of layers to this thing. I wonder, Tim, if this isn't what the book was published. Right. So to the extent the Trump administration was worried about classified information being in the book, I don't believe that they were. I think they just thought the book was going to be embarrassing. That ship has sailed. I wonder if it wasn't just kind of handwritten notes, because just for listeners, like, if you're in a classified meeting and you take notes, those notes are considered classified. Now, John Bolton would have gone through a process with the various intelligence agencies to clear everything he wrote before he published it. But maybe they're saying the notes were. Shouldn't have been.
- [06:31]
A
So how did that work? So, like, after you were the van driver, you did rise to being, you know, spokesman for the national security team for President Obama. So you, like, I've not, I'd not been in those meetings. Like, what happens? Like, you're taking notes, you come out, is there a dude with a burn bag there asking to confiscate your notes? Is it a trust system, honor system?
- [06:51]
B
No, it's entirely a trust system. I mean, well, there's some documents that are so sensitive that they are given to you at the meeting and then taken back by the various CIA person there. Frankly, those are the kinds of documents we saw at Mar a Lago. If you look back at the photos, some of those cover pages with like bright, bright red with stripes like, those are intelligence products that came out of the NSA or the CIA or someplace that are code word sensitivity. Which means it's not like, not even top secret. It's another layer above that where you have to be read into the compartment to be allowed to have access to this information. But if you're John Bolton and you just walk into a national security meeting with your little binder or your little notebook and you're just writing stuff down like that just goes and sits in your office. But when you leave, none of that comes with you when you go home. Unless you get it cleared. Yeah, when you go home at night or when you leave the administration.
- [07:38]
A
Got it. We do have to rely on Benny Johnson for our reports now. It's like, it's like Men in Black. The real news is in the National Enquirer. It is widely known that Bolton mishandled and took classified information for use in his book after he failed to get approval for publication. The rate of his residence comes after investigation. So that's. And they're not even claiming it's something else.
- [07:57]
B
No, no.
- [07:59]
A
So, and this is like facially absurd that his house needed to be raided over this. I'm wondering what your thoughts are about. Just like the degree of alarm about kind of the broader chilling effect. Are you seeing this as very bad one off targeting of somebody that spoke out against Trump or kind of a first blow in what a broader campaign that they're going to be trying to.
- [08:26]
B
Look into Feels like a first blow. I mean, listen, I think that Donald Trump has a very specific list of enemies. Kash Patel helpfully laid out a lot of them for us in his book, I believe. And if I were someone who testified against Trump on the, you know, as part of the January 6th committee or something. This would send a chill up my spine. And, you know, maybe it's not classified information, but we're also going after people at the Fed for mortgage fraud. I mean, they're finding some novel ways right now to punish any perceived enemies.
- [08:52]
A
Do you hear from people like, there are a lot of careers in the national security world, and I guess it's been a minute since you were in there. I mean, there were the big, bold names that, you know, they're now targeting. Right. People that are on Cash Patel's enemies list and, and then subordinate to that, they're like people that worked on these investigations who are basically being run out of these institutions. They're not being investigated, but they're being pushed out of their jobs. And then there's kind of another category of people who've just sort of been around, who are career experts who maybe were there, you worked with and then stayed through Trump 1 and stayed through Biden and stayed through. Have you heard from any what the feeling is among people that have been sort of involved in all this?
- [09:30]
B
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of fear. It's worth saying that the punishment is also extended to stripping of security clearances. And to your point, like, initially was like, John Brennan kind of high profile names, but Tulsi Gabbard just did like, 35, 36 more people recently. It all came out via, I believe, a letter tweeted by Laura Loomer. I think this is how this was disclosed. And it included people who hadn't had a clearance since, like, 2021 who are like, okay, stripping away something I no longer have. So I do think, like, that kind of stuff does send a chill down the spine of anyone at the CIA or the State Department or the intelligence community. I mean, there was a report that Tulsi Grabbered was trying to gather together all the sort of internal intelligence community messaging systems data so they could search it for, like, I guess, leakers or loyalty or something. I mean, can you imagine a worse idea than pulling together a database of the most sensitive conversations ever had by the intelligence community so the Chinese could come find it?
- [10:29]
A
Yeah, so I pay grok to scrub that grok that just two minutes ago declared itself a neo Nazi. I guess the other context here is sort of on the potential next steps. Like, do you think your former boss, Barack Obama is shaking in his boots right now?
- [10:45]
B
I'm guessing no. I think the Supreme Court has led him to believe that he has broad Immunity thanks to Donald Trump. I understand he's a former president. I think he's not totally following the George W. Bush model of, like, sitting out of politics completely. He's campaigning around elections and stuff. I do wish the Obama office response to that whole thing had just been like, man, whatever's in the Epstein files must have been bad, period. Send. You know, like. Like, play ball a little more.
- [11:15]
A
Right.
- [11:15]
B
Like, we should not pretend this is on the level.
- [11:17]
A
No, it's not on the level. And that's. And I. We talked about this a little bit earlier this week, but, like, how do you navigate that balance between, like, there's some absurdity in this and, like, it's clownish. It's ridiculous for, like, the Attorney General to talk about how this raid was, like, necessary for America's safety. Their threats of Obama, against Obama are clownish, for sure. And then, like, on the other hand, I mean, a lot of these guys are clowns. And you covered it for parts of the world, like, Erdogan's kind of a clown. Orban's kind of a clown. Right. And, like, you get into this place where people. They are scary clowns. People get afraid. Right. And has, like, real ramifications on the choices people make and. And their careers and lives and, like, what they're willing to do for the country. Right. Like, how do you sort of navigate that?
- [12:02]
B
Yeah, the guy in it was ripping arms off of little kids and stuff. And, you know, down here, all the boats float. I think, you guys, I don't want to go full JVL on you, but I think you guys brought in some of the necessary historical perspective here, which is like, Hitler was viewed as a clown. Mussolini was of a buffoon. Like, you can be a buffoon and an evil buffoon and use the. The tools of government in truly evil ways. So, like, I'm not saying Trump is Hitler. Like, I think. Sure. I think we all sound silly if we. If we jump right to that.
- [12:29]
A
Like, Erdogan. Like, I don't know. I don't. I don't want the country to become Turkey either. Like, there's. There's a lot of bad steps between us and Nazi Germany.
- [12:35]
B
Yeah. Or Venezuela. Right. Like, Maduro is not the. The sharpest knife in the drawer, but, you know, he's clinging to power for a very long time. And so I think it is very concerning. I think once the power of the state is enormous and Donald Trump has filled this administration with a bunch of people who have been thinking for a long time about creative ways to Use that power to punish Trump's enemies and their own enemies. And that's what makes me a little worried, because you and I both have gone a few rounds with Dan Bongino in his former iteration as a Twitter troll.
- [13:06]
A
Cat and Cash.
- [13:07]
B
Yeah. With Minecraft head and as a podcaster. And, you know, the other day when I saw that he was layered and now there's a co. Co. Deputy director of the FBI, I found that quite funny. And I tweeted making fun of him and I was like, should I tag this guy or not? Because he can make one call and make my life a lot more complicated. But I did. Because I'm reckless and stupid. But I think about it.
- [13:27]
A
No, because you have courage. You're reckless superior. No, but, like, that's, that's what. Like these are kinds of questions that we weren't asking in this country before. You know what I mean? Like back when we were on other sides and you were working at Obama's nsc and I was like, trolling you or Liz or anybody. Like, I wasn't like, ooh, I'm worried, I'm really worried that John Brennan might come after me right now, like, if I said, you know, like, just the, the fact that that thought crosses your mind as a change. I don't know, man. I don't. I did my rant on Monday about the. The distractions, and you bring up the Epstein thing, it's easy to make the joke. Like, I don't think that John Bolton was on the Epstein list. I don't think that's his cup of tea. I think he has some other. I think John Bolton has some other vices. Yeah, yeah. You know, so I think it's easy to bring up the distraction joke, but to me, it's like, this is the core of their program. Like, I mean, maybe a secondary benefit of this is it gets Epstein out of the news, but, like, the core of their program is revenge and consolidation of power. Correct. And I don't want people to lose sight of that, I guess, is my main message.
- [14:22]
B
Yeah, I agree with you completely. Like, I think during that two week of sort of fever pitched conversation about the Epstein files, when Donald Trump kept hitting the Barack Obama did treason button, that was a clear effort at distraction. But Donald Trump sending troops to the street, like, that is his core message. That is something he wants to talk about. It's law and order. Dems are wimps on cleaning up the cities. Let's fight about it.
- [14:48]
A
You know, it doesn't belong at your Labor Day plans. Getting burned by your old wireless bill. Well, some of you guys are probably like half of the Bulwark staff on vacation right now at the beach or, you know, doing three day weekends or at Disneyland. Unlike me slaving away here in my hole, you don't want your wireless plan on those vacations to hold you back. That's why I encourage the switch to Mint Mobile. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plans. Jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of unlimited service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. Bringing over all your contacts is important. Like for me for example, I've got a lot of contacts from my previous life. So you know, if you're ever looking for the cell phone of some random 2000s era Republican, I can maybe help you. One time I was on with today's guest Tommy Vitor and he cold called Sean Hannity. That was back when we were young and troublemakers having fun. I think that was 2016. Sean answered. It wasn't a pleasant call. Anyway. It's important to be able to transfer your contacts over and you can do that with Mint Mobile this year. Skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month@mintmobile.com bulwark that's mintmobile.com bulwark Upfront payment of 45 bucks required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details to that point. Troops in the streets. This is coming across an AP We've got a lot of breaking news today. Real news. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has ordered the National Guard troops patrolling the streets of Washington will be armed. Good. That announcements that today and they've been kind of discussing that National Guard troops include troops from a bunch of red states, including my state. Louisiana has sent 135 guys there because we don't have anything better for them to do during hurricane season than sit outside the shake shack at Union Station. What do you make of, you know, kind of the threat assessment with the DC takeover, military takeover?
- [17:10]
B
I find it chilling. I mean I view this from a perspective of Someone who lives in Los Angeles. And we had our own made up troop deployment for a very long time. And I remember talking to Gavin Newsom about it and he was so, so pissed off because these were National Guard members from California who were taken off duty to like prevent wildfires or do things that really mattered and suddenly were just like kind of sleeping in random buildings in Washington D.C. to deal with protests that had gone away like three weeks earlier.
- [17:37]
A
They're doing perimeter service around like park rates.
- [17:40]
B
Random government buildings. Yeah. And so I look at the DC thing and like I can squint at it. And on one way I just see like, you know, the political fight he wants to pick, Right. Which is Dems are weak on crime and he's going to clean up the city and come at me, bro, if you disagree. But then I look at it a different way and I'm like, is this, you know, like just kind of paving the way for martial law or you know, 1.6.2.0, like. And the fact that all these other governors are so horny to get in on the deal and they want to send their National Guard guys to Washington is pretty. It's pretty gross. And look, also most of these National Guard men and women, they don't want to fucking be there. They don't want to be doing this.
- [18:18]
A
They have jobs and families.
- [18:20]
B
Humans. Yeah.
- [18:21]
A
You know, we're in back to school time. You're taking these folks, like, what if they're a single parent? Which is true in some of these cases. Right. Like, it's like they got to go find childcare now and they're going sitting on the fucking mall.
- [18:30]
B
Yeah.
- [18:30]
A
You know, in D.C. it's crazy. Your point about the red state governors being horny for this. Like, that's to be the alarming part is like they're horny for it. Nothing has happened.
- [18:39]
B
Yeah.
- [18:39]
A
Like literally like the pretext for this was nothing. Essentially. Like big balls.
- [18:43]
B
No, Mr. Balls got manhandled. Big balls was manhandled in Dupont Circle, which has never happened before.
- [18:48]
A
Big balls got knocked around on 14th street and it's like not great. I'm not for that. That's bad. Like the cops arrested the guys that did it. The cops were like there on the scene in five minutes. It wasn't like there was this, you know, it wasn't like the police weren't doing their job. It was bad that this happened. It was like police were doing. So that was the pretext for this, you know, man, a lot of bad can happen between now and 2028. If these guys are sending in the troops because big balls got manhandled, like, what is going to happen if there are actual riots in one of these cities? What's going to happen if there is, you know, other unrest? Right.
- [19:23]
B
Yes, I'm very worried about that. I mean, there's a lot of conversation you hear these days about, like, why aren't there protests? You know, where did all the, where did all the people so worried about Gaza go? Who are protesting under Biden and who are not now? And it's like, well, now there is a real threat of deport or having your visa remote or being arrested or beaten up by some ICE guy and thrown into some, you know, administrative purgatory for God knows how long before you can get out. And, Tim, the thing I think about too is, you know, it would be nice if we lived in a world where if something bad happened on Donald Trump's watch, he would get blamed for it. But I think, you know, that we have a lot of evidence to suggest that's not what will happen. And if there were a terrorist attack, I think his approval would. People would rally around, you know, toughness and God knows what he would do. So, yes, I worry a lot about that.
- [20:07]
A
Yes. Terrorist attack. Right. Like, I mean, that's. What's your message to, like, your Dem candidate buddies? A call? Because I make fun of the consultant speak and the caution, you know, and I think they deserve to be made fun of at times. I also understand, like, the notion of, like, we don't want to have our hair on fire about the stuff in D.C. we want to demonstrate we care about crime, too. People care about crime. People want crime running rampant in D.C. so I should caveat my comments on this by saying I want a secure border and I want crime, and I am against crime in D.C. too. Is that the right approach, do you think, or not?
- [20:50]
B
I mean, I just think there's an honest answer that, that you can, you can go to, which is, I care about crime, too. But the way you deal with crime in a city like Washington is not to deploy the US Military who have absolutely no training in law enforcement. Like, this is self evident crazy. They're in the wrong places. They're not in high crime neighborhoods. They're sitting at Union Station. They're, they're guarding the, the salad bar at the Sparrow. Like, it's a joke, right? Like, call out what he's doing as a stunt, which is clearly it is. It's not a distraction, but it's a stunt. It's not designed to actually solve a problem. It's to get a story about the problem.
- [21:25]
A
Yeah. The stunt is one route. Another route is to talk about it as if it is a massive scheme by the federal government and the jackbooted thugs to take away your rights. And one person that's been on that beat is a guy named Tim Dillon. I know who you listen to. Tim Dillon is a common MAGA comedian's probably wrong, but kind of a culturally conservative comedian that has some MAGA tendencies at times. He had dinner.
- [21:53]
B
Pinned down.
- [21:53]
A
Yeah. He had dinner with JD Vance recently, so his show's been interesting the last couple weeks. I know you've been monitoring like I have. I want to play one clip from him earlier this week. They've already got the cops on the street that are. I mean, that are not cops or that are the military.
- [22:08]
B
They've already got the National Guard on the street.
- [22:10]
A
They already have all your information in D.C. and now they just get to decide what is and isn't over the line. That should scare everybody. You're fucking nuts, dude. If this doesn't scare you, you're nuts. All of these things in Alex Jones, you know, and I've had Alex on. I like Alex. All these things that Alex Jones was.
- [22:29]
B
Like, worried about when I listened to him in the late 90s, early 2000s.
- [22:33]
A
Are coming to fruition. Military in the street, the FEMA camp, the. The tech company that monitors everything. The surveillance.
- [22:43]
B
This is all of that.
- [22:45]
A
Take out the aside about how he has to talk about how he likes Alex. It's kind of like how I talk about you when I'm on other podcasts. You know, if I'm disagreeing with something, you say, no, I like. I like. Tommy, it's okay. I like.
- [22:54]
B
We had.
- [22:54]
A
We have some disagreements over the years, but I like good ideas. So he has to caveat that he likes Alex. But if you take the Alex out, couldn't the Democratic senator have said that?
- [23:03]
B
Yeah, look, I think voices like Tim Dillon are really important because there is a crossover between the audience that listens to Tim and Alex Jones and Joe Rogan. And I think it kind of. He's helping you sort the difference, which is Alex Jones actually wants the FEMA camps in service of keeping liberals out of power.
- [23:20]
A
Right.
- [23:21]
B
Like, there's an authoritarian tendency there. Tim Dillon is like, this is not. We signed up for. I didn't want, like, ICE agents rampaging around cities. I listened that whole episode this morning, Tim, like, in preparation for this.
- [23:33]
A
You had a lot of time. I had a lot of time.
- [23:35]
B
This morning, he's this whole bit about how, like, what are you podcasters doing that will stand the test of time? And he goes, fascism welcoming in fascism, which is really funny. And then he did a whole bit about people getting fired at La Quinta hotels because of automation and their only job left is to join ice. So then everyone in the country joins ice and there's one immigrant family left, and we all try to deport them, and then we deport each other so that Mark Zuckerberg and Peter Thiel can divide up the world like he is, calling out the game and calling out the. And a friend of mine who is like an avid reader of the Joe Rogan Reddit and kind of understanding that world, sent me this incredible video which I actually pitched to your guy will Summer. I don't know if he'll do anything with it. There was an hour and a half takedown of Rogan's show and how it has evolved and gone from like a normal comedian who is sort of poking holes at power and worried about things in the world to like someone who is constantly welcoming on the worst politicians, the worst tech people, and kind of a part of the problem because they feed his paranoia.
- [24:35]
A
I saw some of this. It's very long. This is very long. Someone else sent this to me. Yeah, I watched a couple of minutes of it. Yeah, we'll put it in the show Notes for if somebody wants to really nerd out this week and you got nothing better to do, I'll grab it.
- [24:45]
B
I watch for things like this. I think it's really interesting when someone like a Tucker Carlson is calling out Trump for bombing Iran or someone like Tim Dillon is calling out Trump for this ICE FEMA overreach stuff.
- [24:58]
A
Yeah, I want to just go back to the substance of Tim Dillon's critique here, though, for a sec, because one thing I've been wrestling with, which is kind of this pickle the Democrats are in, which is like nobody, not nobody, but only a minority of the country, a significant minority of the country is happy with how things are going, happy with the institutions, wants them protected. Right. Those are the only people voting for you. You're not going to win a lot of elections outside the Northeast or people feel pretty happy with society up there, your homeland.
- [25:30]
B
Love it.
- [25:31]
A
So what the Democrats need is candidates that can channel outsider credentials and themselves take on the mantle of going after power, going after the things that people don't think that they like. Obama was, I think, benefited by this, a. By just his identity, but also the Iraq war had this way to be an outsider and kind of chann some outsider cred. And Democrats haven't really been able to do that the last three presidential cycles, Right? It's very much been, we're defending institutions for good reason, right? Because Donald Trump is attacking these fucking institutions. He's being a dick about it and like, and it's causing real harm. And so that puts Democrats in this bind where they're like, well, no, but, you know, the FBI is doing some good things, you know, and like, the Democrats were having found themselves in this position, right, Always defending these institutions. That argument by Tim Dillon, there's. There could. There's no reason that couldn't come from like a libertarian left Democrat or like even a leftist kind of Democrat that. That is. That's making the attack that's going out there. Like, these guys are the ones that are consolidating power. These guys are the ones that are turning the fucking military and the FBI into a bunch of jackbooted thugs. And with Palantir, they're stealing your data and they're, you know, giving shit away to the big tech executives that go to Washington. Like, that is a coherent outsider message that a Democrat could give. And I don't know who the right vessel is for that, but I don't know. What do you make of that, the Tim Dillon Democrat?
- [26:58]
B
I think that there's a real opportunity with like the Tim Dillon, Joe Rogan world to peel off some of those voters or at least disenchant them with Donald Trump. Because you're right, Obama ran against Washington. I mean, he had been a Senator for like 30 seconds, but he ran on the Iraq war, but also ran against Hillary Clinton, who was like the avatar of all things Washington. Right. But I do think what you're talking about, like, there is a ton of space for exactly the kind of message you're talking about, which is like, hey, you guys heard of Palantir? Are you good with them consolidating all of our data into one giant database so they can track everything we do? That seems crazy to me.
- [27:30]
A
Guy that started is currently doing four different sessions on the nature of the Antichrist, which is a little concerning.
- [27:36]
B
Yeah, when you love your job, it's not work. So he's doing that. The Department of Homeland Security was a mistake. It is too big, it is sprawling. It is an insane organization. You could run on breaking it up and more limited government. Some Republicans will pick up piece of this, you know, Tom Massey, Rand Paul, etc. But there should be a reform message in There for Democrats.
- [27:55]
A
I don't know. I don't. Yeah, I mean, like, there were Democrats like this. We were growing. I know the ones I didn't like, you know, because they're going after the, the Bush security state over this. But go after the fucking Trump security state. Like, I think that that's a, That's a totally legit message. Anyway. Okay, there you go.
- [28:13]
B
Look, abolish ICE was an overreach. Anytime you say, like we should abolish something, I think you lead people to say, well, what do we replace it with?
- [28:19]
A
Right.
- [28:20]
B
And we've seen that with the bosh, the police, et cetera. But picking out strands to attack ICE on is so. It seems to be so obvious to me, like, why are these guys wearing masks? We should pass a federal law where they can't wear masks. It seems like there's so many little things we could do like that.
- [28:35]
A
Oh, Canada. Hey, y'. All. We're going on tour this fall. We're going up north. I demanded it. I wanted to support our Canadian listeners and friends being attacked by this administration. So we're going to do the whole deal. Mounties, Tim Hortons, maple syrup. I'm going to be drinking Seagrams on stage. Those Seagrams Canadian anymore? I said that in the last episode. And I think they might have been bought by a multinational corporation. Anyway, I'm going to have a Canadian cocktail on stage. You guys can tell me what I should do. And yeah, we get to all be an ally ship against our terrible mega president. So come check out me, Sarah Longwell, Canada's favorite Sam Stein. We're going to be in Toronto in September. Want to see you there, especially if you're Canadian. But if you're American, you want to go support our friends up north and come hang. Would like to see you too. If you aren't up for stamping your passport. You can catch Me Sarah and JBL in D.C. or New York City in October as well. Anyone can grab tickets or more information now@thebullworld.com events. They didn't tell me to tell you this in the ad read, but since you're a friend, since I'm looking up for you, I'm letting you know that I was looking at the pre sales. That Toronto ticket's gonna be a hot ticket, baby. So if you want to go to Toronto, I jump on that now. You should jump on all of them now, but Toronto in particular. Take a look at your schedule, see if you can make it. Hope to see you in Toronto once again. It's the bulwark.com events. Another news item today. Alligator Alcatraz. We've got a ruling, some good news. Something happened. Good. A federal judge. That was last night had a ruling prohibiting state and federal officials from bringing new detainees to the Everglades Detention Camp. The ruling demanded that the state begin dismantling elements of the facility, including temporary fencing, lighting fixtures and generators, among other equipment, within 60 days. I was reading the Washington Post story on this one thing, and I knew it was bad, but I guess I just didn't realize the extent of it. The site had no electricity.
- [30:36]
B
Yes, I saw this, too.
- [30:38]
A
Yeah. So everything had to be powered by generators, including portable air conditioners, drinking and bathing water, clean water had to be trucked in, sewage trucked out, and sewage trucked out. Like, what in the fuck? Why in the middle of the Everglades, like, this is it. I don't know. I was just like, imagining the 2035 AI Netflix movie about this and, like, the scenes of the guys whose job it is to take the sewage out of Alligator Alcatraz through the fucking Everglades with alligators chomping at them like, this is absolutely insane. And again, I think it goes. You could see a Tim Dillon type voice, like, making fun of this and mocking this. But what do you make of it?
- [31:20]
B
Well, so I. Look, obviously Alligator Alcatraz closing is good news. I mean, it was just an abomination.
- [31:26]
A
We should say that they will appeal. The Desantis, the sanctimonious freaks say that they're going to appeal this.
- [31:31]
B
They will appeal. If it were to close, I think it was a good thing. I did wonder, reading the story, Tim. I mean, look, I know there's a little bit of Republican DNA still left inside you. There's like a little piece of you that wants to. To go to a cracker Barrel right now and, you know, throw a trash can through the window because you're mad about their logo.
- [31:45]
A
I do.
- [31:46]
B
What did you make of this quote?
- [31:47]
A
Okay.
- [31:47]
B
This brutal detention center was burning a hole in the fabric of life that supports our most iconic wetland and a whole host of endangered species, from majestic Florida panthers to wizened wood storks. Said this person from environmental group.
- [32:00]
A
I mean, I do a lot of shit talking about the environmentalists on here because I still have, you know, I do still have some things here. And I do have a natural instinct to not care about the wizened wood stork. That said, one cheer for the environmentalists and environmental nimbyism kind of finally does something after they took some strays yesterday on yesterday's pod. They were the leaders on this. I will say this, though. Like, the Everglades, even Republicans like Jeb and even DeSantis, actually before this, like, fucking, you know, stunt, it was sort of like how Colorado Republicans when I was growing up, like, had, like, a little bit of a green streak because you wanted to protect the mountain. You were like an outdoorsman. You want to do skiing and hiking and. Right. All that sort of stuff. Florida, like, Republicans, like, the Everglades was, like, a point of pride, right? I was like, where they went, you know, took their kids and stuff. And so there was, like, Everglade restoration was, like, a thing. And so, I don't know, man. I just, like, even down there, I would have thought that there might have been some blowback to this, but I think that was an elite. I think it was like all these other things. I think it was elite Republican thing. And most of the regular Republicans in Florida were like, yeah, give me my. Give me my alligator Alcatraz hat. Give me my alligator hat. We chomping them migrants, you know, I don't know.
- [33:14]
B
Benny Johnson, one of these. Yeah, no, I'm with you. I know some Republicans who are kind of like conservation Republicans. Right. They want clean water, and you do hunting and fishing, et cetera.
- [33:23]
A
Seven of those out there.
- [33:24]
B
Yeah, there's a couple left. Yeah. I didn't realize that alligator Alcatraz had been built on a Runway for this abandoned airport project. It was supposed to be the biggest airport in the world, but it was blocked by Marjory Stoneman Douglas on environmental grounds. So I guess there is some history and some DNA of this whole facility being blocked because it's just an environmental disaster. But, yeah, I mean, look, this is. You know, I don't know. I heard you talking about feeling like DeSantis is sort of in a nadir at the moment in terms of his political wins and losses. And hopefully this kind of adds to that downward slope.
- [33:56]
A
Hopefully. So I do. What about just the broader. How about this fight, like, just as a political question, like, so maybe this gets shut down. Right. They're building another camp.
- [34:06]
B
Right.
- [34:07]
A
Somewhere else in Florida. We're building some here in Louisiana, you know, and this is. This is boon times for the private prison industry.
- [34:14]
B
Yep.
- [34:14]
A
I just. I do feel like this is, like, do people like that in the micro? They do, but I do feel like it's something that can be campaigned against or is that. I don't know. What do you think?
- [34:25]
B
I have had the same thought and hope, which is that this is overreach and that when you're branding prisons, like, they're.
- [34:33]
A
They're.
- [34:33]
B
Ron's going to move all these people maybe to another old prison in North Florida that they're now calling Deportation Depot, when all these things are, like, branded and they're selling merch and Benny Johnson's doing live streams there.
- [34:45]
A
Some people like the merch. I went to a Matt Gaetz event in the Panhandle last summer as part of the, you know, service journalism I do for you, all of you. There were definitely some people there that would have been. And some children actually, even that would have been wearing the merch. So, like, there are some people out there, but I think it's like a.
- [35:00]
B
35, 40%, maybe there's 60% who sort of, like, I don't know. I, like, I do think we should deport the murderers, but, like, we don't have to, like, torture them. We don't have to, like, let them get eaten by alligators. And I don't think we should deport the really nice woman who, you know, like, sells fruit down the street or whatever. I think a lot of people are offended by that.
- [35:16]
A
And does America want to be known for, like, our gleaming camps?
- [35:20]
B
No.
- [35:20]
A
That's just another thing I don't think people also still have this pride of. It's like, okay, well, what are the big programs that are happening right now in the Trump administration? It's like, we've got data centers that are taking up huge amount of electricity, rising electricity costs. So we've got these huge data centers and huge deportation camps. That's what we're built. It's time to build. Marc Andreessen said that is what we're building now. Deportation camps and data centers. Is that.
- [35:46]
B
No.
- [35:46]
A
That's not the sign to me of, like, a particularly healthy society.
- [35:49]
B
No. And it's. It's just weird. And also, I saw you make this point to our good friend Dean Cain.
- [35:54]
A
Oh, yeah, Dean.
- [35:55]
B
Our population is shrinking for the first time, and God knows how long are we, like, down, like, 1.5 million people this year because of all the deportations. Like, that's not a healthy thing. That. That's not a club we want to be in. You made the point that you see that in places like Syria more often than the United States.
- [36:10]
A
Yeah. Dean's ability to move his face is also shrinking. He has a limited. He has a limited range of motion in his face.
- [36:18]
B
Also, I. One thing on that I saw you called him out for Being an actor, he got very sensitive about you saying that he was an untrained actor who wanted to be an ice agent. And at one point, he asserted that he was also an NFL player. But I believe he was a guy who went to Princeton who showed up at an NFL camp and got hurt and then never actually played. I think you got to make the 53 roster to be an NFL player.
- [36:38]
A
Dean, a little fact check for you there.
- [36:40]
B
I'm just saying. Look, I. I could never sniff the field, but I'm just saying, Dean.
- [36:44]
A
What was your high school sport, Tommy?
- [36:45]
B
Football? Lacrosse?
- [36:47]
A
Football. So did Kenyon. Was there any canyon didn't have a football squadron?
- [36:51]
B
Kenyon had a football team. The coach tried to recruit me, and I told him that I was small and slow and I didn't want to play.
- [36:57]
A
And in truth, you just kind of wanted to get high instead.
- [37:01]
B
Yeah. And we had fall ball for lacrosse. It was a lot more fun.
- [37:03]
A
Yeah. Yeah. You know, Sarah was there.
- [37:05]
B
Sarah was more of a softball maven.
- [37:07]
A
Yeah. I mean, Sarah's like, her build is a little bit more athletic.
- [37:11]
B
She's a good player. I think she's a good player.
- [37:12]
A
Yeah. All right. What else did I have on our list? I had something else on Alligator. Alligator. I felt like I had something else to talk about. We got waylaid. All right, let's talk about the Democrats a little bit. What? Your governor is Gavin Newsom. There's been a lot of Gavin Newsomisti. What's that word? Agony. Over here. We're sort of like, I guess you got to hand it to him. It's working. It's working. And I don't. I guess I don't know what I mean when I say it's working. Is it working? Like, is it convincing anybody? I don't know. Is it working in the sense that, like, he's giving Democrats and Democratic aligned and anti Trump aligned people something to rally around and something to feel good about and, like, is it breaking through outside of our little political obsessive bubbles? Like, the answer to all that is, like, obviously, yes. And the answer to the narrow question of what he's doing on the gerrymandering part is, like, everyone agrees is right and good. So I don't know if we need to spend any time on that, but, like, the broader political strategy. What do you think about that?
- [38:14]
B
Well, I think the fact that there is so much conversation about, like, a Twitter shtick tells you a lot about how desperate Democrats are for, like, something. For anything. Right. Because I think my reaction was probably Similar to yours. Like, I saw those tweets. I'm like, initially I winced a bit, but then they got better and better.
- [38:31]
A
And unfortunately, there's some funny ones.
- [38:33]
B
There's some legitimately funny ones. And unfortunately, I am Tommy Loren toilet.
- [38:37]
A
That's good material. That's good material. There's just no two ways about it.
- [38:43]
B
Yeah, and look, Tim, like you, I am unfortunately reverse polarized. So when I saw Dana Perino and all the Fox News hosts getting mad about it, I enjoyed that. Truthfully, I don't really read most of them. Like, I think it's a fun tactic to get attention. He's clearly like, meeting the moment. You see all this polling. The Democrats want to fight her. And I think this is giving them that. I suspect he won't be doing this bit in like six months, nine months. I could be wrong. But I do think there's a broader thing he's doing, Tim, that's really smart, which is you see Gavin Newsom on progressive media channels all the time. He's talking to Brian Tyler Cohn, he's talking to the Midas Touch folks, He's talking to us. And that is really smart because this is what Trump did. Trump built up those shows. He went on those shows all the time. He helped them build their channels. He built relationships with their audience. And that has to be a long game thing. You can't just do that around elections. I just like do one interview with like Adam Mockler or, you know, or the Bulwark. Like, you got to be on talking to those folks all the time. And that's something I'm really glad to see him doing because every once in a while there'll be like an op ed from some former Biden digital person about how Democrats don't have media infrastructure.
- [39:49]
A
And need to work on clarity, catching strays now in this.
- [39:52]
B
Well, you guys had four years to like, to, to try to help and nurture these things, and you didn't do it. So, like, I agree with the observation, but it's great to see Gavin Newsom kind of putting some skin in the game.
- [40:03]
A
Yeah, that is a good observation. I agree. And I do, you know, it's tough sometimes because you see him out there on the, on the circuit and not everybody is bringing the high quality material. You and Brian Tower Cohen are. There are some, some of these shows he's on. I'm like, okay, I don't know. Not my cup of tea per se, but let a thousand flowers bloom.
- [40:23]
B
You know, the Nelk boys have an audience too.
- [40:25]
A
I Don't know if we do need to build up to Biden dead enders, but that's a personal thing. And so I think that it's good that he's doing that. Here's my worry, and this is more of an existential worry. I worry it's working too well. I worry that he is. That it's working too well and that he is. He cements himself as the person that is fighting Trump and that it's hard. It gets hard to dislodge him and that he brings out. And I don't. I don't actually mean this as a judgment on Gavin because I think the strategy is good. I mean, it kind of a judgment on all of us as humans. We're all fallen, we're all sinners. John, Tommy, I called you John like Megyn Kelly did. We're all sinners. I worry that, like, it brings out the worst in everybody and everybody gets so excited and our nipples get so hard, you know, that like, Tommy Lauren is being called a toilet, that it kind of. The snowball starts rolling down the hill and it turns into an avalanche and it can't be stopped. And, like, we're living in this forever.
- [41:24]
B
Is your concern one of tone and just like coarsening of the culture or is this your concern that Gavin's gonna be the nominee and you think that's bad?
- [41:31]
A
I both. I kind of both a little bit that Gavin is the. I worry a little bit about that because I think that there's some issues that he would have reaching out to, like, people that Barack Obama got to vote for him in Pennsylvania, for example. But yeah, coarsening is the wrong word. I'm course, I don't mind coarse. It's more just like that. I don't know, man. I guess I want a fighter, but it would be nice to be able to have somebody that also fights for something that is a little bit aspirational and that the fighting is not just. I'm the best at swirling people because I love swirling maga. I love it great. I love. It's good. I don't. I don't think it's bad. I'm not worried, of course, in the culture. I just. As an end in itself, it is pretty corrupting, though.
- [42:18]
B
See here, I guess where I disagree with you is I think we are swirling MAGA in service of getting attention to this redistricting fight, and I think that is valuable. And I feel like there is actually an end game to this silly bullshit into the. Into the longer term concern that, like, I Don't like, I heard you and jbl, I think, talking about this, like, is this going to cement this guy?
- [42:37]
A
Yeah.
- [42:37]
B
As the Democratic front runner and the nominee, I just would like to give you some advice. I heard you give Democrats several months ago when they were talking, they were all worried about, should we talk about immigration, should we be pivoting to Medicaid cuts? And it's like, it's just so far away. God knows what we're going to be talking about in two months. Like, thank you. I'm so happy that Gavin's out there punching away. And I do think, I hope that we'll see some Democrats, see what he's doing, see the attention he's getting, see the growth on his socials, the people googling him and be like, all right, I got to get in the game more. I got to show people something.
- [43:07]
A
I agree with that. I needed this pep talk. Thank you, Tommy. I agree with that more. Fucking Democrats should get in the game on this. And it would. And that would assuage my concern. It's about Gavin monopolizing the playing field. Not everybody needs to do the all caps tweets. He's done a great job with that, but the concept is there. Get fucking pissed. Throw some fast.
- [43:27]
B
Make it interesting. Look, I like Andy Bashir. Seems great. He's an incredible record. His approval in Kentucky is astounding. He's a good looking guy. He's got a great family. But it's. He's got to break through somehow and solve this last mile problem of having other Democrats hear who the fuck he is if he wants to run for president.
- [43:45]
A
We've talked a little bit about kind of the Dem brand, like, challenges, issues. The thing that I'm the most wrapped around the axel in is like, how to break through outside of this narrow blue wall path to victory, which gets you 52 senators at most and 290 electoral votes at, like, how do you make Iowa a swing state again? You know, there's a pull out yesterday. Sherrod Brown down 50, 44, whatever. It's way too early. But, like, just how do you think of this challenge of how Democrats can kind of get out of their. The narrow audience that they're reaching right now. Relatively narrow.
- [44:28]
B
So a few thoughts. First of all, I kind of think we got a chance in Iowa this year. Rob sand is a great gubernatorial candidate. He's one statewide.
- [44:37]
A
He's like, he's your doppelganger.
- [44:39]
B
He, we, we looks at. He's far. He has a far more chiseled jawline. But you know, I appreciate the compliment but like, you know, he's a guy who like, he hunts and he fishes. He's authentic. And he's from Iowa and he's one. He's an auditor and it's got an interesting background. And then Nathan Sage is kind of like filling the space of the, the a little more. You know, I think lefty blue collar, union voice there. So maybe we have a chance. I know maybe I'm probably totally wrong. Iowa could be totally gone. But I, I tend to view that politics as just a giant pendulum that is constantly swinging. And when I see Chris Rufo flipping out about the cracker barrel logo, I start to think, boy, this pendulum is swung way too far back. We're going to talk about it, but people, I think people are going to start to find that shit annoying. And I think I don't want to jump us to the 2028 primaries or start talking about presidential politics yet. But I do think that is the process that gets you attention from the media, that allows you to deliver a message more compellingly. So once people start getting into that game, I do think it will help us have some fighters that actually get covered.
- [45:44]
A
If I offered to you the working theories out there for how Democrats could appeal better to some of the demos who they've lost ground with, you have the group out there that is absolutely adamant that it needs to be a populist leftist, you know, economic populism is the only path. You have a group out there that is absolutely adamant that the Dems need to hippie punch the left like that they're just too got too far to the left on progressive issues, whether it be trans or guns or whatever. You've got our abundance friends who think Democrats just should govern better. I think there's a little bit of truth to all those. But like my personal pet issue is I just think that like the vibes of the candidates have gotten really bad. I think you need to find better. Like the vibes need to be totally different with the candidates themselves. Like is really. The recruitment is about as big a problem as anything. Yeah, taking those four or you're welcome to nominate a fifth. Like where, where do you think is the secret sauce?
- [46:38]
B
I think I would probably pick, you know, little bits from each. But I do think like if I were to have to pick one, I would look populist economic, focus on kitchen table stuff.
- [46:48]
A
You live unbelievable.
- [46:50]
B
Well, that doesn't mean you have to be like the furthest left populist economic kind of guy. But I do think, like, a relentless focus on that message is what helped Zoran Mandani. And I think. What's this guy's name in Maine who just announced. Who seems pretty cool?
- [47:05]
A
Graham Planter.
- [47:06]
B
Grand Planter. Right, like that. His announcement video is like him on, you know, his oyster boat.
- [47:11]
A
Right.
- [47:12]
B
Just talking about economic concerns.
- [47:13]
A
What did you think about him saying the word oligarchy in that?
- [47:15]
B
Didn't love it.
- [47:16]
A
Yeah. Okay. All right. Didn't love it.
- [47:18]
B
I'm not. I'm not part of the third way. They. They released a long manifesto today, which is like a reverse Unabomber. It's just a bunch of words you're not allowed to say. This apparently, is based on no polling or specific research. It's just things these guys don't like.
- [47:33]
A
And by the way, I didn't like a lot of them. One of my favorite ones was the third way. It's like, stop saying small D democracy. And I was like, I will not allow that because it makes for so many good jokes. Every time Lovett says small D democracy that it's a free whack for me. So please continue saying small D democracy. But they have some other things out there. Cisgender. They don't like. Bipoc. I'm not really a huge fan of bipoc myself. Incarcerated people. Anyway. Subverting norms. We're not allowed. Why aren't we allowed to say subverting norms? Overton window. We're not even allowed to say. Why can't we say overton window? Third way? I like overton window. Don't dumb me down.
- [48:11]
B
It was a lot of jargon. It felt like a list.
- [48:14]
A
Were you triggered?
- [48:16]
B
No, it just seemed like a list triggered from a bunch of words we're.
- [48:18]
A
Not allowed to say anymore.
- [48:20]
B
It was a list from a bunch of overly online centrists that they could use to tell a bunch of overly online lefties to shut the up. Which, like, that's fine.
- [48:28]
A
Put it out there.
- [48:29]
B
But, like, there's no data backing this. Like, yes, talk like a human being. Be yourself. Like, you know, don't. I didn't like the word oligarchy either. That was the only thing that dialogue bumped me. Except the. The. I agree with you on the guitar riff. I'm going to talk to people who made that ad. I don't like that guitar.
- [48:44]
A
Please. You know the people that made the ad. Yes, please tell them it's all love. It's all love. You know, great ad, good message. They're doing good work. But, like, I just I gotta go fucking crazy if I hear the same guitar riff that's been in every democratic ad for like three cycles now, literally, it's my second shout out to him. I got. I can find you somebody. I got pals that do this. We can make. We can do other guitar riffs. There are other.
- [49:06]
B
Centering better music. We're holding space for better music.
- [49:11]
A
So you're on the economic populist left stuff. All right, well, while we furnish your credentials, can I just say, though, I.
- [49:18]
B
Agree with you like that I think candidate ID and just people who are interesting and compelling that you like, like that they're inextricably linked. Zorin Mondamni is a guy who talks about populist stuff, but he's also super compelling. Like charming, interesting, great at making videos, great at talking to people. Like, you can't disaggregate those two.
- [49:35]
A
No, he's a good hang. He was a good hang on the green drum even, you know, even after I gave him some shit. Ever wanted to stay on vacation longer? Us too. With VRBO's long stay discounts, you can stay longer and save more on select properties. Gotta love a win win book. The perfect summer getaway today with VRBO private vacation rentals. Your future self will thank you later. All right, while we're, you know, burnishing your shitload credentials, let's talk a little bit about Gaza. There's a Washington Post story this morning about, I guess a UN report, global authority on hunger says famine has been officially confirmed in the Gaza City region and is projected to spread within weeks to two more population centers in the wider Gaza Strip. You guys made some noise recently over on your pod talking about how Dems need to talk differently about this, which. Well, why don't you just talk about it? Where do you think things are?
- [50:30]
B
The sort of broader points about the war in Gaza or US relation to Israel? Generally?
- [50:35]
A
Both or both just go.
- [50:37]
B
I think Democrats and a lot of elected officials, when they talk about the US Israel relations are using talking points that were drafted by someone in the 1980s, maybe on a typewriter. They are very dusty and we need.
- [50:52]
A
To evolve them by someone. That's not an anti Semitic dog whistle, though. You're just saying that that person happened to live 40 years ago. You're not saying that they're not drafted by Harry Rosenstein.
- [51:04]
B
I'm saying that like we are. Joe Biden used to do this all the time. He would talk about the Israel of Golda Meir in this bastion of freedom and democracy in the Middle eas. And if it didn't exist, we'd have to create it when the reality is since 2009, it has been Bibi Netanyahu's government and he stayed in power by including in his government coalition increasingly radical, in fact, terrorists supporting like extremist individuals like Itamar Ben gvir, the Security Minister, Smotrich the finance Minister, and I think democrats. The reality of the makeup of this Israeli government is something that I think is really hard for a lot of people to come to terms with because they either have an emotional attachment to Israel or they have this, you know, belief from decades of just sort of like affinity between cultural or whatever it might be. And I think there's a couple things happening right now that are actually crisis. Like there's the crisis of the war in Gaza, which has been going on for nearly two years, and the starvation that's happening there, but also like the Israelis are about to escalate the war in Gaza. And then in the west bank, you not only have like these rampaging settlers, like leading pogroms through villages and like driving Palestinians out and killing them, including American citizens, by the way, but you have this ongoing constant construction of settlements that is carving up the west bank in such a way that there is no hope of a two state solution. In fact, at this point there basically isn't because there's no contiguous territory that could be a Palestinian state. And so the hope is like, let's just acknowledge reality and talk about things as they are, not as they were 20, 30 years ago or as they we wish they would be. And let's also just be honest that like groups like AIPAC are not. They don't support Democrats, they support candidates in primaries to take out progressive Democrats.
- [52:47]
A
I was with you up to the very last sentence. I think that like, just being awake to what is the reality on the ground in Gaza is necessary to being able to talk about this in a way that is honest. Right. Like, and I think, and I saw you getting in it with some folks, there have been a lot of folks that were big critics of Israel immediately after October 7, even really before the war was being fought, who are now saying, oh, well, now you guys are coming around our point of view and whatever. I guess you can try to wave the bloody shirt or something if you want, but where we are now, there's no plan and Israel set. And the plan is basically to ethnically cleanse God's Strip.
- [53:29]
B
They send people to South Sudan, right?
- [53:31]
A
They're sending people to South Sudan. So like that's where it is. Like, so if it was another things where they're like, we're going after Hamas and then we're going to figure out, you know, we have a plan to extricate ourselves, like, that's not what has happened. So we are, we are. And it's really, it sucks. It's really sad. And I just think that, like, to your point, like being clear about the situation as it actually lies with the situation, I think is necessary to be able to talk about it. Now. I find the APAC thing very strange. This is not just related to apac, it's related to all this sort of stuff. I feel like it's a lot of people that don't actually pay attention to politics, understand politics that closely, that feel like APAC is more powerful than it is. All of these donor stories. It's like we're in the post Citizens United world. It's like the fact that you took $20,000 from people on a board or whatever. I don't fucking know, man. Sometimes I feel like they're made into this all power boogeyman in a way that makes me a little uncomfortable.
- [54:29]
B
No, I don't think they're anything close to an all powerful boogeyman. And I think actually what you've seen over the last six to 12 months has, has shown kind of stark terms that they're not. I do think you, you see a lot of policing of policy and speech by various groups in this space. Like Jonathan Greenblatt from the ADL wrote a New York Post op ed where he called me an anti Semite because I said Bibi Netanyahu dragged Donald Trump into the war with Iran. And I think like 10 years ago that kind of thing would have like really stung and worried me. But now I think like you hear those kind of attacks so often and they're so cynical and they're in such bad faith that the power is wearing off. I think what frustrates me about APAC is they do have a party line. And that party line includes like bullshit like the US and Israel should never disagree in public. We should deal with our disagreements behind closed doors. I'm like, well, you know who that really helps? Bibi Netanyahu, who never gets criticized from America in public. And you know, so I think that that's kind of the stuff I'm, I'm talking about there and then on. In terms of like that tweet that got all the lefties mad at me. Tim. Basically I said like, I saw a bunch of people Tweeting like, you know, fuck you if you're, you know, just now coming around to thinking what's happening in Gaza is bad or a genocide or what have you. And I just think like, my brain is always wired to think in terms of a Democratic strategist and like, how do we build the biggest coalition to tackle a problem? And I think if we're scolding people for agreeing with us, that is unbelievably stupid and we shouldn't do it. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be accountability at some point for politicians who voted in certain ways that we disagree with. But like, in my mind, I always have like a 70 year old Jewish grandma in, you know, in New York who is like a deep emotional connection to Israel, is a big liberal, cares deeply about Israel and has watched this war over the last, you know, 22 months and is increasingly horrified. And I want that person to be part of this coalition even if she won't agree that it is a genocide. Right. Even if that is a bridge too far for her, given the connection of that term to the Holocaust. Right. But we want that person marching, rallying, voting, calling Congress like, and that's my whole point.
- [56:32]
A
Yeah. And saying, we don't want people to fucking starve.
- [56:34]
B
Yeah, we don't want to starve kids.
- [56:35]
A
You don't want that person. You want that thing. We don't want kids starving. What we don't want is, you know, anti, anti starvation reporting by the people at the Free Press, you know, talking about how, you know, we really can't talk about the malnourished boys because they also had other, you know, their arms were blown off.
- [56:52]
B
So the Free Press, they wrote this piece, I think it was 12 examples they found of malnourished children who've been featured in photos and western news reports where those kids also had preexisting conditions. And like, look, on one level, more context and reporting is fine, it's great. But like, some of the examples they used were, CNN failed to mention that this one kid who is looked emaciated, had part of his skull blown off by an Israeli shell from shrapnel. I was like, I'm sorry, what point do you think that is making about this war? And it's just clearly like this is the Free Press going after various mainstream organizations in a really cynical way to suggest that they are overplaying or manufacturing reports of famine or starvation. And it is. And I know, like, the other thing, Tim, that never gets talked about is the Israeli government will not let Reporters go into Gaza and report from the ground without an IDF minder. It would be much easier for the New York Times to fact check stories if they had people on the ground. But they're left like trying to call the mom of some kid and like, they can't. What are they gonna do? Call a hospital that's been bombed? Try to get records? Like, come on.
- [57:56]
A
It's a challenging reporting environment. You can't admit that maybe the Iranian bombing didn't go quite as bad as you thought it was going to.
- [58:02]
B
It didn't. No. I don't think it's over yet, though. I just, I don't think this is.
- [58:06]
A
It's important that we question our priors. Okay.
- [58:08]
B
Oh, do.
- [58:08]
A
I'm agreeing with you on the Gaza stuff. So it was important I threw out there a little neocon chomp.
- [58:13]
B
No, I, Well, I think it's. Look, did it lead to World War iii? No, I, I think the war ended for just. I'm giving a real answer to the kind of a funny question. I do think the war ended because we basically, like, we're about to run out of interceptor missiles for a lot of the missile defense programs. And the Israelis were like, all right, it's time to stand down. And the Iranians were ready to stand down too. I just don't think this is over. I don't think the 12 Day War is going to be how this thing ends. I think there's going to be more conflict.
- [58:38]
A
We have a few laughs we have to get to. We're running out of time. But I do, I do it. Before we get to laughs, I just want to really quick check in on your feelings. I don't know, man. I range between anger. I get a lot of anger sometimes. Mostly on the immigration stuff. Little bouts of sadness. Little bouts of sadness. But the thing that worries me the most is I self identify. We'll do a little therapy talk. Sorry, third way we're going to do a little therapy talk here. As I look internally is. I'm getting kind of numb. I think I'm self identifying as getting kind of numb and I don't like that. So I don't know. How does that strike you? You.
- [59:12]
B
Yeah, I think that's a lot. I mean, I, I feel that way a lot. There's clearly the White House's strategy is to do something outrageous every single day so that they can drive the narrative. And there are definitely times where I'm like, I, what's he doing at the Kennedy center or the Smithsonian? Like, do I have to like read about that and be like, you know, it gets exhausting. And that's their goal, right? It is to exhaust us. I, I'm sort of like you. I think the story, the more specific the story or the thing, the more outraged I am. Like the story of Andre Hernandez Romero getting rendered to El Salvador. Like seeing the photos of him crying for his mother, his head being shaved, knowing he did nothing, knowing the horrors they would inflict on him. Like, you feel that in your soul and you can't shake it. I, I feel the same way about some of the images and videos you see out of Gaza. And to just know that we're like funding this and funneling arms to bomb these kids, it like, it can break you if you really think about it. But like the day to day of Trump, like, I, I too am. It's easy to feel numb. It's constant.
- [60:15]
A
Yeah. Do you fight it though, or do you embrace them? Or do you embrace the numbness with mid afternoon cocktails, gummies.
- [60:25]
B
It's more of an edible. It's not always.
- [60:28]
A
It's California.
- [60:29]
B
It's post bedtime. Yeah. California, sober. I, I tend to find that like, if I learn about, if I dig into something, if I learn about it, then I start to care about it more. If I just sort of like, I, I need to let this one go, then, then I, I'm numb.
- [60:41]
A
Self care, self care a little. Doing a little self care, letting a few stories go. Do you have any advice for people on this, listeners?
- [60:48]
B
I think my advice would be you don't have to read all the news. Like, sincerely, that was like, remember 2017, 2018. I do think that was a feeling that like kind of resist Lib's hat. It's like, I'm going to read all the news, I'm going to watch all the panels and I don't know that that's good for us.
- [61:02]
A
I give that advice too. I'm going to take a break from my show. If you're a daily listener, we appreciate you, not you, but take a fucking break. Yeah, take a break from a show for a day or two. That's fine. That's okay. Download it, you'll survive. Also though, an equal balance to that for me, like how I want to take a break at times and people should take a break for their own, you know, to find things that are more fulfilling is. I don't want him to take away the things that I care about. Like, don't let you know what I mean, like not to be whatever corny but like, don't take, don't let him take your anger and sadness or passion or care away like that. I worry about that almost as much sometimes where it's just like, fuck, I don't know. The things that I used to really care about and feel passionate about, it's just, it's hard to. And so while simultaneously I want to break from the crazy, I also don't want to numb myself, to not care about things that matter. Does that resonate with you at all?
- [61:53]
B
Well, 100%. And. And I find it kind of playing out in some specific places, like climate change. Still a pretty big problem. Feels like we're rolling back all the things we did to stop it. I have two little kids. I have a two year old and one year old. I really worry about what planet they are going to inherit because of us. It's easy when you start to think about it. You go to a dark place, it's completely demoralizing. It's like kind of nihilistic. But yeah, I don't want to like lose that passion and sort of feeling a motivation to like actually do something about it, even if it's outside of government.
- [62:25]
A
All right, we're gonna end with a laugh. Two laughs. Tweet from Byron Donald. You've talked about Cracker Barrel quite a bit and I don't want you to be a smug coastal liberal. Okay, Smug coastal liberal. Agnostic. I'm assuming you're agnostic. I don't know. I haven't asked lately. But this is Congressman Brian Donalds. Think he's gonna run for governor of Florida. Or already is. Maybe. He says this. In college I worked at Cracker Barrel in Tallahassee. I even gave my life. I even gave my life to Christ in their parking lot. Their logo was iconic and their unique restaurants were a fixture of American culture. He really just snuck that one in there. I gave my life to Christ in the parking lot. Cool. I love that. And we all have places where we have memories. I remember where I did my first communion and all that. But what do you think happened in the parking lot?
- [63:22]
B
Do we think that's a euphemism for like, I got a handjob? That's where my head went.
- [63:26]
A
Am I wrong? No. I was thinking maybe, like, he was so fucked up, like on drugs in the Cracker Barrel parking lot that, like, he crashed out and he decided that day, like, he hit rock bottom and that day he decided that he was going to find Jesus, which I hope, I hope that is true. And that he found he found something that served him. I don't know. We need to learn more. I've got follow up questions about that.
- [63:51]
B
Jesus. Yeah, I guess I was never a Cracker Barrel guy. I think I've probably been once or twice. My memory of it is that it sucks and that I don't care and I can't believe people are talking about this. I'd love to go back to yelling about Sydney Sweeney. At least that was entertaining.
- [64:06]
A
You like talking about Sydney Sweeney's? No, I like those photos coming across the screen. Liberal men still can like jugs. Yeah, here's the thing. The old Cracker Barrel logo was great. I wasn't a big Cracker Barrel man myself either. The logo was great. The place had a vibe. Bill Crystal, the old sage and the slack correctly point or pointed out something I did not know which was that it was always phony though Cracker Barrel like was founded 1970 as like a fake old thing. Like it's not like this thing that's been here since night, you know, so saloon, whatever. It had a good vibe. It was good branding. They fucked it up. The ad wizards are terrible. The whole marketing trend towards minimalism is totally bad and wrong. And I concur with that. I don't know what it has to do with WOKE or what it has to do with Byron Donald's path towards redemption in the Lord Jesus, but I do think it was a bad change.
- [64:59]
B
Look, I'm thrilled for Byron that he found God.
- [65:02]
A
Me too.
- [65:02]
B
I found it at a Waffle House one time.
- [65:05]
A
I mean, he hasn't really shown. I guess I should just say he hasn't really shown a lot of Jesus like behavior over the past few years. I mean, he is representing a state that has Alligator Alcatraz, which we just were discussing where like we have people who did nothing wrong who are in a hellhole in the middle of the Everglades where they have to have clean water shipped in. So anyway, but I don't really think Jesus probably would have been before that. I don't speak for him, but anyway, I do. Like, whatever.
- [65:29]
B
You never know where Jesus, you know, he shows up in his way. So here's the political question I want to ask you. Like, am I being sanguine about feeling like the like absurd WOKE attacks have. Have lost some of their luster? Because there was a time when people like us would mock Kid Rock, you know, machine gunning a bunch of Bud Lights. But then it became a huge thing and a bunch of, you know, MAGA crazies, like really harmed the stock price for a long time. And I think it scared corporations right into, like, it plowed a lot of ground to get to where we are now, which is where, like, you know, Donald Trump will try to sue you for a billion dollars if you have a DEI program. But, like, when I see Chris Ruffo tweeting about the track Cracker Barrel logo, I do wonder if they've jumped the shark a little bit and if people are gonna be like, come on, man, this is so fucking stupid.
- [66:16]
A
I think so. I think we're past peak woke and past peak woke lash, and I think that's a good thing. Yeah. We have one more laugh ahead. But breaking News. Donald Trump Jr. Has just tweeted, someone's gonna have to explain why George Conway was already at John Bolton's house at the crack of dawn. So I guess Donald Trump Jr. Was watching our livestream.
- [66:32]
B
Nice.
- [66:33]
A
I will I guess, say to Donald Trump Jr. That, like, George Conway showed up like an hour after the Fed showed up, and he lives five minutes away. So you don't really need a crack investigative team to figure out how did that.
- [66:41]
B
Yeah, he was like. He lived down the street, right? He's like, I was at my apartment in Bethesda. It's not that big of a town.
- [66:46]
A
They're in Bethesda together. Great. All right, last thing. It's a long clip, so I think we'll have to play it in two. Two parts. Alex Jones, aforementioned Alex Jones has some concerns about his president that I'd like to share with you. Trump has got great genetics. He's tough. And if he takes care of himself, he can make it through these years and then after. But if he doesn't, he's gonna have. I predict Trump is gonna have some type of collapse within the next 12 months at the current trajectory. And so I'm gonna be talking about that today. He's got extremely swollen ankles, so he's gonna. A collapse is coming in the next 12 months for Trump.
- [67:28]
B
Did you watch this whole segment, by the way?
- [67:30]
A
I've got more.
- [67:31]
B
Okay.
- [67:31]
A
More is to come. That is. First, I want to know if you have any thoughts about the collapse coming in the next 12 months.
- [67:37]
B
Sounds exciting. First, I'm thrilled to hear it. Alex Jones is ahead of the curve, probably on all things Biden's health.
- [67:44]
A
Unfortunately, that's true.
- [67:46]
B
Probably admit that.
- [67:47]
A
Good point. Should probably admit that maybe Alex Jones really has his eye on elderly deterioration. Watch out, Trump fans. A collapse coming next 12 months. All right, I was most intrigued, and I gotta say Tommy, you hate to handle Alex Jones, but the man is a talent. I mean, we're here in the broadcasting space and when you listen to this next clip and what this guy's doing, he's just, he's on another level. And you do have to credit him for that. Yeah. The main piece of evidence as referenced there for that Donald Trump will collapse in the next 12 months that Alex Jones provides is his cankles. Let's listen. If you pull up the ankles from Alaska, they're straight on shot. They are big, they are swollen. They are like really big.
- [68:35]
B
My next 19 1/2 inches.
- [68:39]
A
His ankles look like they're about big. Neck 15 inches around. That's not a good sign for the heart and the rest of the body because the rest of them, he's lost weight, he's not that fat. So that's not good.
- [68:53]
B
Everybody that you've known that's having heart.
- [68:57]
A
Problems, that's not good right there. Okay, okay. They're getting bigger and bigger. Oh, someone make a TikTok audio out of that. That is good. The cankles are getting fucking thick.
- [69:16]
B
They're bigger and bigger. So, Tim, this is like a 25 minute, 30 minute segment. Did you watch all of it by any chance?
- [69:23]
A
I caught eight minutes.
- [69:25]
B
I watched all of it on 2X.
- [69:26]
A
Okay.
- [69:27]
B
It starts with this genuinely concerned rant about Trump's health and he's begging his staff to let him get enough sleep and all this shit. And it's like, look, we all know that Donald Trump is like, he goes to the golf course and he dicks around and he watches Fox News all day. But the guy does seem to never sleep, right? Like he's tweeting at 3am he's doing Fox phoners on the way back from Alaska, right? It's like, it's not terrible advice this. Then it goes into. But it's all predicated off this Fox and Friends interview where Trump makes a joke about how he wants to get into heaven, right? He wants to stop the war in Ukraine to save some lives, get into heaven. And then Alex Jones makes this in super intense call for Trump to submit himself to Christ. Did you get to see this first?
- [70:04]
A
Really?
- [70:05]
B
It's crazy, man. It gets really, really intense.
- [70:08]
A
Then they should go to a Cracker Barrel parking lot together.
- [70:10]
B
They should go, yes, Byron, you're there. And then at the end, it's like he plays this clip of Trump calling Netanyahu and himself a war hero, and he starts yelling at Trump and Netanyahu, saying neither of them are War heroes.
- [70:21]
A
It is.
- [70:22]
B
Like this is just to your point about Alex being a talented broadcaster. This is a ranging segment that starts with cankles and ends in Netanyahu.
- [70:32]
A
Boy. Well, those cankles are getting thicker and thicker. Let's zoom in on those bad boys for the YouTube neck. Tommy Vitor. What a show. So thank you for doing this with me, and I hope that your ankles stay thin and that your heart stays healthy, my friend. They're good. They're good.
- [70:53]
B
And please, let's keep George Conway out of the clink.
- [70:56]
A
Everybody, have a wonderful weekend. We'll see you back here on Monday with Bill Krystal. Peace Agent of chaos, angel of death, wanna of three ancient fates. Playing with your scissors again? How lucky are we to have so much to lose? Now don't move when I tell you what to do. Pull me by the ankles to the edge of them and take me like you do in your dreams. I'm not gonna stop you. I'm not gonna stop you this time, baby. I want you to show me what.
- [71:52]
B
You mean and help me with the.
- [71:55]
A
Crossword in the morning. You are coming. Ask me how did I sleep? The Borg Podcast is produced produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
- [72:29]
B
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- [73:02]
A
Terms apply. Buying a car in Carvana was so easy.
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B
I was able to finance it through them.
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A
I just. Whoa, wait. You mean finance?
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B
Yeah, Finance got pre qualified for a Carvana auto loan, entered my terms and shot from thousands of great car options.
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A
All within my budget.
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B
That's cool.
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A
But financing through Carvana was so easy. Financed, done. And I get to pick up my.
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B
Car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow.
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A
Financed, right? That's what they said. You can spend time trying to pronounce financing, or you can actually finance and buy your car.
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B
Today on Carvana financing, subject to credit approval.
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A
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