The Bulwark Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode: Van Lathan and David Jolly: How To Beat Middle Finger MAGAism
Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: David Jolly (Democratic candidate for Governor of Florida, ex-GOP Congressman), Van Lathan (Media personality, Higher Learning co-host)

Episode Overview

Tim Miller delivers a double-header episode focused on the fight for liberal democracy in the MAGA era. In the first half, David Jolly discusses his campaign for Florida governor, dissecting issues like the state’s affordability crisis, political branding, and GOP culture wars. In the second half, Van Lathan joins for a deep, candid conversation about empathy, dehumanization, and how both sides are wrestling with the rising anger and threats to pluralism in American political life.

Segment 1: David Jolly — Florida, MAGA, and the Democratic Path Forward

Timestamps: [02:36] – [33:44]

Life on the Campaign Trail and Perspective Shift (03:00)

• Jolly shares how running for governor is different than being in Congress or on TV, saying it enables a more refined understanding of voters' everyday issues:
  • “You realize how the issues we talk about every day get distilled differently in a lot of different communities. Some of the information isn’t digested at all—the finer points of what does it mean to lose your democracy is a conversation that not everybody’s having.” — David Jolly [02:55]
• He quotes Nicole Wallace, who told him gubernatorial candidates develop a “different perspective” because they have a real, executive job.

The State of Florida: Costs Over Culture (04:00–06:00)

• Affordability crisis (insurance, rent, property tax) is the overwhelming concern of Floridians—50% name it as their #1 issue.
• Culture war politics, fueled by Ron DeSantis, are impacting the state's environment, but do not override basic economic fears.

National Headlines: Vanity Leadership and Military Readiness (05:15–11:34)

• Jolly and Miller riff on a Trump cabinet speech by new Secretary of War Pete Hegseth, criticizing its vanity and Fox News theatrics:
  • “[Hegseth is] tolerated, but they’re not followed… he’s not being respected. The most important thing is, what rings hollow is… I don’t believe he really pointed to readiness concerns… it was our looks.” — David Jolly [05:33]
• Concern over the politicization of military leadership, the impact on morale, and how such culture war moves play to MAGA audiences but not real governance.

Why Run for Governor, and Why as a Democrat? (14:02–22:06)

• Jolly tells a deeply personal story of weighing the demands of a campaign against family life:
  • “The reasons why not to run are our two children, but the reasons to run are our two children. I believe we can win this race… the data shows this is now largely a toss up…” — David Jolly [14:04]
• On choosing the Democratic Party despite being a former Republican:
  • “What I see in today’s Democratic Party are the values I’ve always had as a Republican and independent… The economy should work for everyone… government has a role… we should be a place where everyone is welcome and empowered… those values are Democratic Party values.” — David Jolly [18:31]
  • He stresses independents are “natural allies” and need not change registration to support Democratic candidacies.

Florida’s Democratic Prospects and Building a Winning Coalition (22:06–25:37)

• Jolly attributes previous Democratic losses in Florida to “the cycle”—COVID, culture war backlash, etc.—but now sees a structural shift.
• “This cycle, we are already seeing Democrats overperform by 15 or 16 points… The cycle is different now.”
• Emphasizes authenticity: “People say, ‘Oh, Jolly was a Republican. The party left him.’ No, that’s part of the case. I also changed as I served… there’s an authenticity to it that we need in politics.” — David Jolly [22:34]
• Governor’s races offer a different path, focused on state issues, not the president.

Florida Issues Lightning Round (25:37–33:36)

• Personal freedom: Jolly slams “The free state of Florida is a lie,” citing attacks on LGBTQ visibility and classroom censorship.
• Housing/affordability: Proposes a state catastrophic fund for insurance, expanded workforce housing, and increased tax relief for first-time buyers.
  • “My Republican friends call the state catastrophic fund for insurance socialism. Maybe it is. I just call it cheaper insurance because the private market’s failed.” — David Jolly [28:28]
• Tariffs/inflation: Tariffs are impacting local businesses; Jolly predicts this will drive more Democratic wins.
• Public health: criticizes Florida’s surgeon general for anti-vaccine policies and pledges to “bring back data and science and math and public health.”
• Opponent contrast: On likely GOP nominee Byron Donalds, Jolly says, “I’m prepared to lead and he’s not... he represents more of the same and I represent change.” — David Jolly [31:28]
• Coalition building: Final plea for Democratic unity—“My race is not about lifting my voice. It’s about lifting yours…” [32:28]

Notable Quotes from David Jolly (w/ Timestamps)

• “The free state of Florida is a lie.” [26:13]
• “When you have a chance to change the world, you take it.” [16:23]
• “We always mistake the independent voter as being a moderate… most are just reformers, solution-oriented, what I call pluralists.” [20:30]
• “This coalition that is available to us just wants big answers to big problems.” [20:44]

Segment 2: Van Lathan — Empathy, Anger, and Living with MAGAism

Timestamps: [33:47] – [85:01]

Framing the Debate on Empathy and Dehumanization (35:24)

• Van Lathan expands on a text to Tim after hearing Tim’s conversation with Ezra Klein, who argued for empathy even toward MAGA voters:
  • “It’s not that I have an objection to showing empathy for people, but I think it’s important to realize what robs people of empathy. Tyranny and misery are married… They both rob you of your humanity.” — Van Lathan [35:24]
  • Uses slavery as an example: To oppress, you must dehumanize.

The Double Standard on Who Gets Empathy (36:00–40:00)

• Society holds marginalized people to a higher standard (“rise above” responses) rather than expecting the perpetrators or systems of tyranny to do better.
• Touches on recent violence against conservative figure Charlie Kirk and how lionizing problematic figures without honest reckoning allows their harmful ideology to be “sane-washed.”

The Challenge: How Do We Talk About Opponents' Humanity? (43:28–50:43)

• Miller wrestles with the difficulty of remaining empathetic when anger and fear are justified—or even exploited.
• Van acknowledges the “cycle” of feeling empathy for those denied it themselves:
  • “Me showing empathy to them is understanding why they feel the way that they feel… as a brother, as a member of that community… to remember that terrible things are terrible.” — Van Lathan [44:36]
• Explains how marginalized groups are exhausted by calls to “rise above”—“People feel like they’re in an existential fight… rather than me look at them and judge… the question is, stop, let’s talk about it, but also think about what led to the climate.” [49:23]

On Political Violence, John Brown, and Historical Memory (53:49–60:50)

• Discuss John Brown as a metaphor:
  • “What I think we need are more people that have the moral clarity to say, this, in fact, is wrong. It’s wrong on Monday, it’s wrong on Thursday, it’s wrong on Friday, and my voice will be as loud as it needs to be…” — Van Lathan [56:16]
• Miller worries about escalating violence and the risk of “us becoming them.”
  • “I abhor political violence... any place where ideas can get you killed is grotesque…” — Van Lathan [60:25]
  • Van clarifies: true change needs both truth-telling and the willingness to compromise when necessary, depending on one's social role.

How to Beat "Middle Finger MAGAism" (66:53–81:40)

• The MAGA hat as a “middle finger,” a symbol of defiance and intentional offense to “the people that are right” (Miller’s paraphrase).
• Both Miller and Lathan share stories about reckoning with family, community, and not letting anger or polarization rob us of basic shared human decency (“the truce at the tailgate”).
  • “All I have control over is my own self. And what I’m hoping to offer... is I don’t want us to become so consumed by fear and anger about this threat that we do not look at people across the street and see them as humans…” — Tim Miller [63:33]
  • Van responds: “Everything you said has a place in discourse. What I’m trying to figure out—and I think the central question that we’re all asking—is with this particular political movement… what would you like me to do?” [65:35]
• Shared sense that the "overt meanness" and loss of cross-group community makes “the middle finger” MAGAism harder to counter, but still worth attempting.

Biting Satire: Paul Finebaum, SEC, and the Cult of Culture (78:05–84:53)

• Miller and Lathan lampoon the spectacle of figures like Paul Finebaum considering Senate runs as symptom of the “how bad can it get” right-wing grift.
• “Let’s just see how far the rabbit hole goes… Can we get an N-word out? How bad can it get for the gulag?” — Van Lathan [79:29]
• College football, for all its flaws, sometimes provides fleeting moments of community across otherwise unbridgeable divides (“It’s almost like a little truce…” [81:07])

Notable Quotes from Van Lathan (w/ Timestamps)

• “Tyranny and misery are married… They both rob you of your humanity.” [35:24]
• “We need more people that have the moral clarity to say, this, in fact, is wrong.” [56:16]
• “Sometimes you must not shake hands. Sometimes you must say, ‘We will shake hands after we found something to agree with…’” [77:30]
• “It’s mean and it’s aggressive and it’s not for you. And that’s kind of how it feels.” [82:30]
• “There used to be something… even an attempt, and man, that’s gone. There’s an overt meanness, an overt us versus them.” [82:59]

Key Takeaways

• David Jolly’s campaign is banking on an exhausted Florida electorate ready for pragmatic, Democratic leadership after years of culture wars and mounting living costs.
• Building winning coalitions requires appealing to Democrats, independents, and moderate Republicans with a message grounded in economic opportunity, practical governance, and respect for pluralism.
• Van Lathan challenges the audience to reckon with the emotional cost of living in a society rife with dehumanization, while also warning against being consumed by anger or stooping to the same tactics as MAGAism.
• Empathy and courage must go together: “Compassion and courage in a fight go hand in hand….”
• Defeating ‘middle finger’ MAGAism means maintaining moral clarity, not descending into reciprocal hate or political violence, but also not “sane-washing” the harm and lies of right-wing populists.

Suggested Listening Timestamps

• Jolly on campaign motivation: [14:02]
• Jolly on Democratic values for red states: [18:31]
• Van Lathan on empathy and tyranny: [35:24]
• On the emotional toll of being “dehumanized”: [36:00–40:00]
• John Brown, moral clarity, and violence: [53:49–60:50]
• How do we live with MAGA neighbors? [63:15–68:53]

Overall Tone:
Sharp but earnest, alternating between Jolly’s measured policy focus and Lathan and Miller’s raw, searching emotional dialogue. Both segments blend hot-take, humor, introspection, and political strategy.

Memorable Closing:
Van Lathan sings lines of “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do”—an apt spiritual coda about forgiveness, struggle, and community. [85:16–86:44]