Van Lathan and David Jolly: How To Beat Middle Finger MAGAism

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode: Van Lathan and David Jolly: How To Beat Middle Finger MAGAism
Date: September 30, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: David Jolly (Democratic candidate for Governor of Florida, ex-GOP Congressman), Van Lathan (Media personality, Higher Learning co-host)

Episode Overview

Tim Miller delivers a double-header episode focused on the fight for liberal democracy in the MAGA era. In the first half, David Jolly discusses his campaign for Florida governor, dissecting issues like the state’s affordability crisis, political branding, and GOP culture wars. In the second half, Van Lathan joins for a deep, candid conversation about empathy, dehumanization, and how both sides are wrestling with the rising anger and threats to pluralism in American political life.

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Segment 1: David Jolly — Florida, MAGA, and the Democratic Path Forward

Timestamps: [02:36] – [33:44]

Life on the Campaign Trail and Perspective Shift (03:00)

• Jolly shares how running for governor is different than being in Congress or on TV, saying it enables a more refined understanding of voters' everyday issues:
  • “You realize how the issues we talk about every day get distilled differently in a lot of different communities. Some of the information isn’t digested at all—the finer points of what does it mean to lose your democracy is a conversation that not everybody’s having.” — David Jolly [02:55]
• He quotes Nicole Wallace, who told him gubernatorial candidates develop a “different perspective” because they have a real, executive job.

The State of Florida: Costs Over Culture (04:00–06:00)

• Affordability crisis (insurance, rent, property tax) is the overwhelming concern of Floridians—50% name it as their #1 issue.
• Culture war politics, fueled by Ron DeSantis, are impacting the state's environment, but do not override basic economic fears.

National Headlines: Vanity Leadership and Military Readiness (05:15–11:34)

• Jolly and Miller riff on a Trump cabinet speech by new Secretary of War Pete Hegseth, criticizing its vanity and Fox News theatrics:
  • “[Hegseth is] tolerated, but they’re not followed… he’s not being respected. The most important thing is, what rings hollow is… I don’t believe he really pointed to readiness concerns… it was our looks.” — David Jolly [05:33]
• Concern over the politicization of military leadership, the impact on morale, and how such culture war moves play to MAGA audiences but not real governance.

Why Run for Governor, and Why as a Democrat? (14:02–22:06)

• Jolly tells a deeply personal story of weighing the demands of a campaign against family life:
  • “The reasons why not to run are our two children, but the reasons to run are our two children. I believe we can win this race… the data shows this is now largely a toss up…” — David Jolly [14:04]
• On choosing the Democratic Party despite being a former Republican:
  • “What I see in today’s Democratic Party are the values I’ve always had as a Republican and independent… The economy should work for everyone… government has a role… we should be a place where everyone is welcome and empowered… those values are Democratic Party values.” — David Jolly [18:31]
  • He stresses independents are “natural allies” and need not change registration to support Democratic candidacies.

Florida’s Democratic Prospects and Building a Winning Coalition (22:06–25:37)

• Jolly attributes previous Democratic losses in Florida to “the cycle”—COVID, culture war backlash, etc.—but now sees a structural shift.
• “This cycle, we are already seeing Democrats overperform by 15 or 16 points… The cycle is different now.”
• Emphasizes authenticity: “People say, ‘Oh, Jolly was a Republican. The party left him.’ No, that’s part of the case. I also changed as I served… there’s an authenticity to it that we need in politics.” — David Jolly [22:34]
• Governor’s races offer a different path, focused on state issues, not the president.

Florida Issues Lightning Round (25:37–33:36)

• Personal freedom: Jolly slams “The free state of Florida is a lie,” citing attacks on LGBTQ visibility and classroom censorship.
• Housing/affordability: Proposes a state catastrophic fund for insurance, expanded workforce housing, and increased tax relief for first-time buyers.
  • “My Republican friends call the state catastrophic fund for insurance socialism. Maybe it is. I just call it cheaper insurance because the private market’s failed.” — David Jolly [28:28]
• Tariffs/inflation: Tariffs are impacting local businesses; Jolly predicts this will drive more Democratic wins.
• Public health: criticizes Florida’s surgeon general for anti-vaccine policies and pledges to “bring back data and science and math and public health.”
• Opponent contrast: On likely GOP nominee Byron Donalds, Jolly says, “I’m prepared to lead and he’s not... he represents more of the same and I represent change.” — David Jolly [31:28]
• Coalition building: Final plea for Democratic unity—“My race is not about lifting my voice. It’s about lifting yours…” [32:28]

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Notable Quotes from David Jolly (w/ Timestamps)

• “The free state of Florida is a lie.” [26:13]
• “When you have a chance to change the world, you take it.” [16:23]
• “We always mistake the independent voter as being a moderate… most are just reformers, solution-oriented, what I call pluralists.” [20:30]
• “This coalition that is available to us just wants big answers to big problems.” [20:44]

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Segment 2: Van Lathan — Empathy, Anger, and Living with MAGAism

Timestamps: [33:47] – [85:01]

Framing the Debate on Empathy and Dehumanization (35:24)

• Van Lathan expands on a text to Tim after hearing Tim’s conversation with Ezra Klein, who argued for empathy even toward MAGA voters:
  • “It’s not that I have an objection to showing empathy for people, but I think it’s important to realize what robs people of empathy. Tyranny and misery are married… They both rob you of your humanity.” — Van Lathan [35:24]
  • Uses slavery as an example: To oppress, you must dehumanize.

The Double Standard on Who Gets Empathy (36:00–40:00)

• Society holds marginalized people to a higher standard (“rise above” responses) rather than expecting the perpetrators or systems of tyranny to do better.
• Touches on recent violence against conservative figure Charlie Kirk and how lionizing problematic figures without honest reckoning allows their harmful ideology to be “sane-washed.”

The Challenge: How Do We Talk About Opponents' Humanity? (43:28–50:43)

• Miller wrestles with the difficulty of remaining empathetic when anger and fear are justified—or even exploited.
• Van acknowledges the “cycle” of feeling empathy for those denied it themselves:
  • “Me showing empathy to them is understanding why they feel the way that they feel… as a brother, as a member of that community… to remember that terrible things are terrible.” — Van Lathan [44:36]
• Explains how marginalized groups are exhausted by calls to “rise above”—“People feel like they’re in an existential fight… rather than me look at them and judge… the question is, stop, let’s talk about it, but also think about what led to the climate.” [49:23]

On Political Violence, John Brown, and Historical Memory (53:49–60:50)

• Discuss John Brown as a metaphor:
  • “What I think we need are more people that have the moral clarity to say, this, in fact, is wrong. It’s wrong on Monday, it’s wrong on Thursday, it’s wrong on Friday, and my voice will be as loud as it needs to be…” — Van Lathan [56:16]
• Miller worries about escalating violence and the risk of “us becoming them.”
  • “I abhor political violence... any place where ideas can get you killed is grotesque…” — Van Lathan [60:25]
  • Van clarifies: true change needs both truth-telling and the willingness to compromise when necessary, depending on one's social role.

How to Beat "Middle Finger MAGAism" (66:53–81:40)

• The MAGA hat as a “middle finger,” a symbol of defiance and intentional offense to “the people that are right” (Miller’s paraphrase).
• Both Miller and Lathan share stories about reckoning with family, community, and not letting anger or polarization rob us of basic shared human decency (“the truce at the tailgate”).
  • “All I have control over is my own self. And what I’m hoping to offer... is I don’t want us to become so consumed by fear and anger about this threat that we do not look at people across the street and see them as humans…” — Tim Miller [63:33]
  • Van responds: “Everything you said has a place in discourse. What I’m trying to figure out—and I think the central question that we’re all asking—is with this particular political movement… what would you like me to do?” [65:35]
• Shared sense that the "overt meanness" and loss of cross-group community makes “the middle finger” MAGAism harder to counter, but still worth attempting.

Biting Satire: Paul Finebaum, SEC, and the Cult of Culture (78:05–84:53)

• Miller and Lathan lampoon the spectacle of figures like Paul Finebaum considering Senate runs as symptom of the “how bad can it get” right-wing grift.
• “Let’s just see how far the rabbit hole goes… Can we get an N-word out? How bad can it get for the gulag?” — Van Lathan [79:29]
• College football, for all its flaws, sometimes provides fleeting moments of community across otherwise unbridgeable divides (“It’s almost like a little truce…” [81:07])

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Notable Quotes from Van Lathan (w/ Timestamps)

• “Tyranny and misery are married… They both rob you of your humanity.” [35:24]
• “We need more people that have the moral clarity to say, this, in fact, is wrong.” [56:16]
• “Sometimes you must not shake hands. Sometimes you must say, ‘We will shake hands after we found something to agree with…’” [77:30]
• “It’s mean and it’s aggressive and it’s not for you. And that’s kind of how it feels.” [82:30]
• “There used to be something… even an attempt, and man, that’s gone. There’s an overt meanness, an overt us versus them.” [82:59]

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Key Takeaways

• David Jolly’s campaign is banking on an exhausted Florida electorate ready for pragmatic, Democratic leadership after years of culture wars and mounting living costs.
• Building winning coalitions requires appealing to Democrats, independents, and moderate Republicans with a message grounded in economic opportunity, practical governance, and respect for pluralism.
• Van Lathan challenges the audience to reckon with the emotional cost of living in a society rife with dehumanization, while also warning against being consumed by anger or stooping to the same tactics as MAGAism.
• Empathy and courage must go together: “Compassion and courage in a fight go hand in hand….”
• Defeating ‘middle finger’ MAGAism means maintaining moral clarity, not descending into reciprocal hate or political violence, but also not “sane-washing” the harm and lies of right-wing populists.

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Suggested Listening Timestamps

• Jolly on campaign motivation: [14:02]
• Jolly on Democratic values for red states: [18:31]
• Van Lathan on empathy and tyranny: [35:24]
• On the emotional toll of being “dehumanized”: [36:00–40:00]
• John Brown, moral clarity, and violence: [53:49–60:50]
• How do we live with MAGA neighbors? [63:15–68:53]

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Overall Tone:
Sharp but earnest, alternating between Jolly’s measured policy focus and Lathan and Miller’s raw, searching emotional dialogue. Both segments blend hot-take, humor, introspection, and political strategy.

Memorable Closing:
Van Lathan sings lines of “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do”—an apt spiritual coda about forgiveness, struggle, and community. [85:16–86:44]

Transcript

[A]

Hey everybody, I got a bunch of notes for you. So just real quick. On today's show, we are taping this as Donald Trump is giving a very sleepy, ambient esque speech to our generals. I will have much more on that on the Next Level, which is coming out on Tuesday this week. I'm traveling tomorrow, so we need to move that around. So the Next Level POD will be in your feeds tonight, Tuesday night. So go ahead and check that out. We've got a bunch to discuss, including JBL's newsletter about how we are past the worst case scenario. A very, a very typical JVL take which we're going to chew over on the Next Level on this show. I've got a double header for you. David Jolly in the first segment, Van Lathan in the second. Just a quick peek behind the corner about how I'm trying to do this. I understand a lot of y'. All. This is like your daily news show. So I want to cover the news of the day. I also want to give candidates are doing interesting things an opportunity to come on and talk about it. You can support David Jolly, by the way, jolly.com if you like what you hear in segment one. And I also want to have interesting conversations. We're trying to do all that stuff for you and I'm juggling it. So I'm doing my best. I'll take your feedback in the comments on how well I'm doing. But Van is just a really thoughtful guy. He's one of those guys. I went to have a drink with him a couple months ago and it was supposed to be a 30 minute drink. We were together for three hours. He's just got a really interesting insight and he texted me about the convo that I had with Ezra Klein and he said, he goes, man, I want to go deep with you on empathy and dehumanization and I want to be able to have those conversations here too. So if you want, if that's something that interests you, you can, you can pop ahead to Van in segment two of this show. And that goes a little long. And that's why when you look at your POD feed right now, this is like a seven hour podcast instead of the set of the normal length. Lastly, we still got tickets for the DC Show. Sarah McBride is going to be there with us. It isn't just going to be me and Sarah and jbl. We're bringing on some of our other Bulwark fam. It's going to to be a fun show. We had such a great time in Canada. No singing from me in D.C. but it'll be, it'll be worth your time. Go to the bor.com events bor.com events to get your tickets right now for Washington, D.C. all right. Up next, my friends David Johnley and Van Lathan. Stick around. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome a former member of the US House of Representatives. Back then he's a Republican. Now he's a Democratic candidate for governor of Florida. My former Nicole Wallace co panelist, it's David Jolly. What's going on, man?

[B]

Good to be with you, Tim. Great to be with you. Good to be back in whatever this is kind of world. I've been in the governor's race for four or five months. I've missed it.

[A]

You can't have missed it too much. You get to be out there with the people. How's life out there with the people? It's a little different than being in our holes looking at the camera. What, what, what are you noticing out there?

[B]

You know, Tim, it is fascinating you, you name dropped Nicole. I'll tell you something she told me when I was at the table with her maybe a month after having gotten in the race. And I was sharing with her a little bit of a different perspective, just reflecting on my time at MSNBC and a different perspective on the ground running for governor. And you realize kind of how the issues that we talk about every day get distilled to differently in a lot of different communities. Right. Some of the, some of the information isn't digested at all the finer points of what does it mean to lose your democracy Is a conversation that not everybody's having. But Nicole said something that day that was kind of forecasting, I think, where I would end up going eventually. She said, you know, I always enjoy speaking to gubernatorial candidates because their perspective is refined in a very different way. And she was absolutely right. Right.

[A]

I mean, you gotta, you have a, actually have a job to do.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You have a job unlike the, unlike the Congress, which isn't really a job anymore. They just, they post. Their job is kind of indistinguishable from my job at this point. That's right.

[B]

And look, it's, it's kind of like a big city mayor. I mean, it is an executive job responsible for the administration of government. And every state's different. Right. In Florida, our affordability crisis has manifested in a home insurance crisis, a property tax crisis, obviously chasing rents as well, car insurance, utilities. And then we have unique Issues of culture wars, because Ron DeSantis really launched the culture war six or eight years ago. You could almost argue nationally, we have the war on immigration, fighting communities and not fighting crime. So that's the basket of goods in Florida. But it all starts, I mean, if you. I can tell you from the trail, but you can also look at the data. Nearly 50% of Floridians, when asked, what's the number one issue for you? Not directed, not given multiple choice, just free form. What's the number one issue? Costs. Costs in the economy. That's right.

[A]

All right, I want to get into Florida issues here for most of the show, but we, as we're taping, there is some news in that national basket of goods that we have to talk about. Unfortunately, the new secretary of War, former former weekend talk show co host Pete Hegseth, was doing kind of a Joel Osteen meets Fox and Friends performance in front of the the generals that he made fly from all over the world. To hear him this morning, did you have a ch. Look at it at all?

[B]

I did. I did.

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

A couple things ring out. It's clear the poor guy misses his Fox News appearances. Right. I've missed the relationship with the audience, but I haven't missed the vanity of it all, if you will. I think Pete Hegseth misses the vanity of it all and so had to create this.

[A]

He's got the vanity mirror, actually, that he put up.

[B]

Yeah, right, right. But the other, the other side of that coin is people see through that. Right. Someone who is not respected never really commands a room. And so they're tolerated, but they're not followed. And I think that's what we're seeing in that room today. Hegseth is being tolerated because of the position he holds, but he's not being respected. And the most important thing is what also rings hollow is I don't believe he really pointed to readiness concerns. You know, for people who may or may not be familiar kind of with DoD and war fighter language and metrics, readiness is what is our national readiness? What is the troop readiness? What are the qualifications to engage if it needs to be in combat or in offensive operations? I'm not sure so much of what he was concerned about was our readiness as much as it was our looks. Our looks. Right. I mean, he was attacking people's weight and their beards and their gender in some really odd ways, as opposed to focusing on are we going to increase the raw metrics of readiness, of qualifications of our force? Because that also allows us to recognize that a force that feels confident and respected and welcomed and empowered actually could perform better than one that simply looks like a bunch of strong white men. I think that's going to ring through in a lot of people's eyes and ears today.

[A]

Yeah, I just want to play one audio from that to that point, Kinzinger, your fellow former Republican congressman, turned away from the party. He posted this. This is what you would expect to hear from somebody speaking to the freshman class at the academy, not to our most decorated generals. And I want to play one clip that I think speaks to that.

[B]

But today, at my direction, every member.

[C]

Of the Joint force at every rank is required to take a PT test twice a year, as well as meet height and weight requirements twice a year. This also means grooming standards. No more beards, long hair, superficial individual expression.

[B]

We're going to cut our hair, shave.

[C]

Our beards and adhere to standards. Because it's like the broken windows theory of policing. It's like when you let the small stuff go, the big stuff eventually goes. So you have to address the small.

[A]

Stuff, telling these fucking generals who've been leading soldiers in wars for decades that they gotta, they gotta worry about the beard length of the 19 year old recruit. It's just, it's crazy, crazy stuff. And he's out there saying like, no more beardos. I'm interested in whether Donald Trump counts as being in the chain of command of having to do the twice yearly pt, because I will tell you, I'm on board for the new policies if it means Donald Trump has to do the PT as well.

[B]

That's exactly right. On Fox and Friends, on Fox News. Put him on a treadmill. Let's see how he performs though.

[A]

One more ominous thing about his speech was he did talk about how if the generals didn't like his little TED Talk, they should do the honorable thing and resign. And I was a little bit worried that that was going to be the ominous part of this, that they were trying to get out people that weren't on board with the full MAGA program. And then Trump came on and spoke afterwards and we'll have more on this in the next level because it's happening as we talk now. But he was very low energy, talking about sleep and, and election fraud and tariff as being his favorite word and how he likes certain paper and I don't know, all of a sudden it didn't feel quite, quite like that. But what like, I mean, there, you have a lot of, there are a lot of military folks in Florida. And this does intersect with your, you know, your remit, running for governor. And how much do you worry about that? Like this, like the change in, you know, like demanding, not commitment to the Constitution in the country, but to these two TV hosts.

[B]

Yeah, look, I mentioned readiness as a metric. Another metric, truly a measurable metric, is morale. I mean, that is something that is often discussed, Right. Morale is actually injured when you have these vain leaders without qualifications who, through raw power, begin to try to, you know, influence people who truly are qualified and are capable and are ready to lead our men and women in uniform, whether that means on the front lines or an IT command that sits thousands of miles away in a remote small town in the United States. I think we should, and this is important, this is a reflex I have tried to unlearn on the campaign trail. I think where there are areas for improvement, we shouldn't approach this through this reflexive. They're always wrong or they're always right. Or if I'm an R or D. Right. And so if there are needed improvements with readiness or morale or whatever the other metrics are, sure, let's pursue those. But I think to have an unqualified Secretary of Defense basically speaking down and insulting the people who are truly qualified and suggesting that because our military, in his mind, doesn't look like something sufficient for central casting on Fox News, that somehow that makes us unqualified and insufficient. First, I'm not sure we've really seen that anyway. Right. I mean, we live in the Tampa Bay area where we do have Special Operations Command. We have a lot of Special Ops and Special Forces folks that come through the Tampa Bay area. I can promise you I have not seen a reduction in the fitness level of our special operators that call the Tampa Bay area home. Those are true warriors, true warriors who are available to us. But we also need a force that actually embraces a lot of other billets or mos or the assignments or the requirements, depending on your service. What does that mean? From IT to linguistics to engineering, we actually naturally will end up with a very diverse, super qualified force of men and women in uniform because of the different requirements and responsibilities that the DoD has the feel on this with Hegseth is led with vanity, inexperience, a lack of qualifications, and just trying to fix a problem that we don't have. And that's where I think a lot of it falls flat. But look, it'll probably play well in the MAGA Fox News echo chamber.

[A]

It's amazing how much you guys are listening to all the details of my life at the Toronto show. Among the things people wanted to talk to me about the most were the Fingering Trio. If you're not on our YouTube feed, you're really missing out. And the part time cat I've quasi adopted. Aretha, the neighborhood cat that comes on by. And a big reason why Aretha's coming by more and more is because of our sponsor, Smalls. This podcast is sponsored by Smalls. For a limited time, you can get 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com thebullwork Smalls Cat food includes protein packed recipes made with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your fridge. And it's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. Starting with Smalls is easy. Just share info about your cat's diet, health and food preferences. Then Smalls puts together a personalized sampler for your cat. No more picking between random brands at the store. Smalls has the right food to satisfy any cat's cravings. Smalls was started back in 2017 by a couple of guys home cooking cat food in small batches for their friends. A few short years later, they've served millions of meals to cats across the US including my Aretha. The boy named Aretha. Aretha, I had to tell you it's staving off the demand that I'm gonna eventually have to concede to, which is having an actual pet. I'm getting really pressured on this 7 year olds the negotiation skills of my 7 year old. I mean, I don't know, she might end up being a prosecutor. We'll see how things go. But she is relentless. And I keep trying to have the neighborhood cat satisfy as the pet. And the best way for me to do that is the neighborhood cat will come if I shake the smallest treats. The main smallest food is good as well, but the treats the cat can tell that it's the treats that it likes. We're gender neutraling the cat right now because it's a boy named Aretha. Aretha can tell. And so then Aretha will come in and then that buys me another couple days of not having to negotiate over a more permanent pet. What are you waiting for? Give your cat the food they deserve for a limited time because you are a bulwark listener. You get 60% off your first order plus free shipping when you head to smalls.com the Bulwark one last time that 60% off your first order plus Free shipping when you head to smalls dot com the Bulwark. All right, let's talk about your race a little bit. I want to just first do some kind of big picture stuff about why you got in the race. Then we'll get into the issues before we talk about the decision to run as a Democrat. Why run at all?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You had a nice life.

[B]

Yeah. It's a great question. Some of it is going to sound esoteric, but politics is all about timing and sometimes a moment kind of reaches out and grabs you. You're right. I've been out of office for 10 years. I'd be okay never to be on a ballot again. I'm not interested in just chasing a generic ball, finding something to run for. Our kids, Tim, are 6 and 4. This is an incredible time for us as parents and it is a sacrifice for our whole family to kind of spend some time on the campaign trail. But we are in a moment of dramatic change. We're in a moment of dramatic change nationally, but also in the state of Florida. The affordability crisis is real. The culture crisis. The culture wars have victims. Have victims. And I say this as a family whose orientation is a white Christian family. But at 6 and 4, I don't know who my kids will end up loving or worshiping as they grow old, what pursuits they will want to pursue either professionally or vocationally, avocationally. But I know because I can already see in front of my eyes that depending on what that life looks like, they may or may not be welcome in the state of Florida. We have had culture and communities under attack in the state of Florida. At the same time, we've had an affordability crisis. Florida has also become this, this home for experimenting with all of the, the really bleeding edge of right wing stuff like we're going to abolish taxes is something we're going to consider in the next six months. It sounds great, right? But it's also important to fund the police and teachers and you know, on teachers, look, we pay our teachers 50th in the nation. It's a moral wrong. There's a lot that's wrong with our state. The broader question though is why are we running? Look, the reasons why not to run our are our two children, but the reasons to run are our two children. And I believe that we can win this race. I know the data shows this is now largely a toss up all of the data. And so that moment is kind of grabbing us. But Tim, I told my daughter, who I tell this, I tell this story on the stump a lot. She started crying one night and she said, dad, I don't want you to run for governor. Now, a six year old child telling you what to do or not to do through tears is. They could convince you.

[A]

It's powerful. But I have a seven year old child and sometimes they change their opinion two minutes later, you know, so it's powerful but fleeting.

[B]

She does like all the hotels in Florida with lazy rivers.

[A]

Yeah. I don't.

[B]

But the words that I found where I said, sweetie, when you have a chance to change the world, you take it, you take it. And that doesn't mean you know how it's going to turn out. But I would say from our national politics to our state politics, the level of activism right now is demanded by the dangers and the threats nationally. The dangers and threats to democracy in Florida, the threats to whether or not people can afford to live here, whether they feel welcome here, whether their democracy is slipping away through attacks at the ballot box. And so I think we all have to do what's within reach. For some people that's registering to vote or taking somebody to register or organizing or going to a protest. For others, it's standing on the ballot. The last thing I'll tell you is something I've had to reconcile with, particularly in the last few weeks since the Charlie Kirk shooting and some of these other just incredible Trump moves. I don't believe that one election or one candidate fixes the problem. And the moment we're in, I don't think it's that easy. I really don't. And I had to question myself a little bit, is the juice worth the squeeze? And where I have arrived, because I know this to be true when we win, when there are new leaders, because there is a new coalition, right? Not just new candidates, but a new coalition of voters who say enough is enough. We're not going in this direction anymore. We have begun to turn the tide and make the incremental progress that begins to create the long term recovery that I think we need.

[A]

There's a lot of conversation, I have a lot of conversation on this pod. You and I have talked about this offline about what is the right strategy for winning in red states? Right. And part of that, the first level of that choice is should candidates run as an independent? Is a Democratic brand too toxic to run as a Democrat in red states at this point, for whatever reason, fair or unfair, you chose to run as a Democrat? As a former Republican, I've talked to other formers who are hesitant to do that. My instinct is that you made the right choice on this. But, but for listeners like, why don't you explain why you, you went that route rather than saying, oh, I'm going to be an independent candidate, sure, so.

[B]

Let'S lead with values and then talk kind of electioneering. Because I found, I, I found my, my home in the Democratic Party negotiation. Frankly, I think the independent space. I've been an independent for the last six to eight years. The independent space, I think, has been a natural ally of the Democrats for the last six or eight years. I often called myself through those years a member of the Democratic coalition. But what I see in today's Democratic Party are the values I've always had as a Republican and independent, and I see them in today's party. The three basic values that I mentioned are the economy should work for everyone, everyone. Now, that doesn't mean we condemn success. We should congratulate success. We should hope it creates additional opportunity, find ways to ensure that it does create additional opportunities and investment. But the economy should work for the lowest wage earner, for the person who lost their job, the person trying to afford health care. The economy is not working for everybody right now. We know that. The second value is the government does actually have a role and responsibility in our lives. It's our government. We pay for it. It should be lean and efficient. But we need services for our seniors, our veterans, our storm victims, families in need of excellence in public education, fighting crime, safe communities. Right there is a role for government at a time when it's under attack. Pediatric cancer research. Go through the list. The third value is very simple. We should be a place where everyone is welcomed and empowered, regardless of the color of your skin, where you were born, who you love or who you worship. Those values are Democratic Party values. From the young socialist to the last blue Dog standing. I do believe those are the actual values that tether the Democratic Party's coalition together. But why then can we win in Florida if we have so fewer registered Democrats? It is because those values, when we amplify them to the independent community and to soft Republicans, those values are broad enough to bring them in as well to our coalition. And so I disagree with a lot of Democrats who say, nationally, we've got to pivot, we've got to change. We can't be who we were two years ago. I disagree fully the values we have. We need to amplify more into faith communities and ag communities, into the gun communities, into the common sense community, and not ask them to register as Democrats if they don't want to. You don't have to register as a Democrat to vote for a Democratic governor. And so that's why I'm running as a Democrat, because I found a home. To your point about the independent space, I spent six years or so trying to organize it with Chrissy, Todd Whitman, Andrew Yang, a bunch of others, and learned so much. It unlocked my personal politics in a big way. We always mistake the independent voter as being a moderate. Some are far left, some are far right, some are moderate. Most of them are just reformers, solution oriented and what I call pluralists. Like some. Some answers for them are the left, some are on the right, some are in the middle. That's my politics. I think we need a state catastrophic fund for insurance. Republicans call it socialism, I call it cheaper insurance. I still think government needs to be lean, but it needs to provide services. I don't know if that puts me in the middle or a little to the right. I don't care. This coalition that is available to us just wants big answers to big problems. James Carville told me when I was trying to organize the independent space, we were on a panel or somewhere, he said, jolly, you're just, you're just taking votes from Democrats. And I said, james, these voters are available to Democrats, they're available to Democrats. Not once have Republicans or Democrats tried to reach those independents. And so I'm running as a Florida Democrat on Democratic values, but building a coalition broad enough for people outside of our party.

[A]

Let me ask you, though, okay? Generic Democrats have done pretty poorly in Florida recently. You know, whether it be Charlie Crist or Val Demings or I. Nothing against any of these people, but they've run statewide races and things have gotten worse, worse for Democrats. So I'm wondering in what ways do you see yourself as different from them? Either ideology, ideologically or otherwise, are able to offer something that maybe a generic Democrat has not been able to offer to Florida voters?

[B]

Yeah, I love that question because this is. Heilman told me, stop being an analyst, start being a candidate. But I'm going to be an analyst for a minute because. Well, because national analysts in the media and national Democrats need to get coached up on this a little bit. And I understand it's too easy to accept conventional wisdom. The answer is not first about the candidate. It's first about the cycle. Every cycle is different. Right? You know that as well as anybody. So the last cycle for Florida governor was coming out of Covids and lockdowns and culture wars and Democrats got wiped out. The Entire ballot. Charlie Crist lost by 18, Val Demings lost by 16, our CFO by 20. But all of the metrics in other races were looking the same. This cycle, we are already seeing Democrats overperform by 15 or 16 points. Florida had two congressional special elections that overperformed by 16. A state legislative race just overperformed by 21 national elections. Frankly, the Mandami race, despite the fact that none of his answers are right for Florida and none of my answers are right for. For the city, voters are screaming for change in this cycle, and they are resentful that leaders aren't listening to them. So the cycle is different now. How am I different as a candidate? Look, one, as I just mentioned, I'm trying to build a coalition bigger than the party. Now we have to amplify our party, but we've got to build a bigger coalition. The other thing is, Tim, I tell my story of change, and I think there's an authenticity to it that we need in politics. People say, oh, Jolly was a Republican. The party left him. No, that's part of the case. The party left me. I also changed as I served. I actually, look, I moved on reproductive freedom in my early years in Congress when I realized how my faith teachings were wrongly being applied to a constitutional question. And I saw the impact on communities that needed access to reproductive care. You know, I became the only Republican to vote against the Planned Parenthood investigation. I tried to save money for reproductive care through community health centers. I started to do these things. I've moved, I've changed, and I tell that story, and most people have done that as well. The last piece, though, if the cycle is different and the candidates different, the office is also different. This is very important because whether I'm a candidate or not is keeping my analyst hat on. I do think one of the ways to come back for Democrats is through governor's races, where we do not have to litigate the president. Now, I'm not setting aside my convictions or asking others to do that about the country and the president. My convictions remain where they have been for a long time. But I'm talking about insurance and taxes and crime and education. And if we focus in on delivering Democratic values and solutions to people's lives, to their communities, it's how you get an Andy Beshear in Kentucky, Steve Bullock in Montana. That's the race we're running. That's how you get a David Jolly in Florida.

[A]

A couple of Florida issues really quick. Should people in Florida be free to paint sidewalk chalk rainbows on the sidewalk or not.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, they should. Let's go back to local control and home rule. And if communities want to recognize, in this case, the LGBTQ community or another community, God bless them. Go do it, Ron DeSantis. And the governor should keep his hands out of it.

[A]

Do you think it's interesting, in a free state of Florida, you're free to say whatever you want, you're free to say slurs, but you are not free to just draw some rainbows on the sidewalk. That's where the line is.

[B]

You're not free to recognize who you love in a classroom. You're not free to speak about your faith in certain environments. Look, if I'm to have one bumper sticker in this race, it's probably that the free state of Florida is a lie. The free state of Florida is a lie. One, it's becoming the most expensive place to try to buy a home or live. But second, your personal freedoms have been trampled for six years now.

[A]

Let's talk about that. On the expenses. I mean, there are two things that jump straight to mind for me. Living in Louisiana, we have some similar problems to Florida, some differences. But number one, you've mentioned insurance. And number two, I think is even greater problem in Florida is just housing abundance, like availability of housing. Like what are some state solutions you have for those issues?

[B]

Look, we're not going to control supply and demand, although we can control a little bit of supply. We're not the Fed. We can't control rates. But in natural disaster states, the homeowner's insurance market has collapsed and it's not coming back. And it's being held together by band aids and popsicle sticks. We need a state catastrophic fund, a true cat fund. I introduced one in Congress, I would lead one in the state. If you remove hurricane coverage from the private market, it cuts homeowners insurance by 60 to 70% in a lot of cases. We have plenty of ways to fund that CAT fund. We have tourist development dollars coming into the state every day. A couple other things you can do. You could provide direct in new workforce housing models, right? Where currently we have a little bit of money going to workforce housing where the developer agrees to a 40 year tax credit or subsidy plan to keep rents at a certain rate. We could just expand upon that and do that. And then taxes is also a huge piece of this. If we provide first time home buyer tax relief, you know, $150,000 homestead exemption or a three, four, five year step up and taxable basis, you've eliminated more Than half of that. What is driving the cost of a home? Because right now insurance and taxes end up costing more than the person's note on the home. If you're a first time home buyer, those are Florida solutions. But I think the principle, maybe for this audience is important. I wish the private sector had the solutions for affordability. It doesn't for housing in a lot of states.

[A]

Well, we could build more. We could take some of the regulations off and let people build.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

In some parts of Florida at least.

[B]

We could also, we could also use government subsidies to make it easier to build. The point that I'm getting to is where I think private markets are not satisfying the need right now on affordability. The government does have a role to step in. Look, my Republican friends call the state catastrophic fund for insurance socialism. Maybe it is. I just call it cheaper insurance because the private markets failed and it's not coming back and the government has to step in and solve a problem for people.

[A]

Are you seeing the tariff impact anywhere? Like local, locally, like, like some examples? I might not be familiar, you know, because you're just out and about. You see the impact on people.

[B]

Oh, yeah, listen, we, I, I still think there's a latency to it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the, the cost of goods is real. We have good friends who own a coffee shop and right now they're eating all the additional expenses of the increase in goods for coffee. But it is real. It is. I mean, it, it is real. And so the relief that Trump promised is not going away. The relief that DeSantis has talked about is not there. And so I do think this is going to contribute to Democrats having an incredible cycle next November. This could be a sweeping generational cycle for Democrats next November.

[A]

Last thing on the vaccines, there is some discussion about banning vaccine mandates in schools in Florida.

[B]

Like, really, there are very few things a governor can do on day one in the state of Florida. But one of them is I can fire the Surgeon General of the state of Florida. He should be fired. He is making the state less safe. He is suggesting repealing vaccine mandates for school children and admitted to Tapper that they didn't do any research, any public health research on this. It's just a question of freedom. He doesn't think families should have to do this. But our surgeon General serves at the pleasure of the governor. This is Ron DeSantis's problem. This is Ron DeSantis vision. Ron DeSantis is making Florida less safe. And so, yes, you know, one of the things I talk about, about one, I Like being a Democrat because I get to believe in data and science and math and public health. Well, guess what, as governor, I'm going to bring back data and science and math and public health and vaccines. And it's amazing, Tim, how that is resonating. Whether it is is fear of natural disasters and climate science that has not been paid attention to, to public health or to actually returning to places of leadership. Subject matter experts in our state university system, our water district boards, our public service commission that regulates utilities. The idea of actually putting in leadership in Florida adults, adults with experience and subject matter expertise is something that's resonating in this cycle. It just shows you how bad Republicans have left this. But it's also why we have a historic opportunity to change direction.

[A]

I lied. One last question. One more last question. You're not running against Ron DeSantis actually if you get the Democratic nomination. And the person most likely to get the Republican nomination right now is Byron Donalds congressman. Not exactly a ton of experience, you wouldn't say. Managing experience. Interesting background. Give us a little bit of a 1 minute contrast with Byron Donalds because.

[B]

I'm prepared to lead and he's not is probably the main thing. And this is a question of change versus more of the same. He represents more of the same and I represent change. This is an open seat, which is also why we're going to win. Look, we have polls on both sides, both sides now showing this race even up. That was our goal for next summer, Tim. Not only can we win this race, we are going to win Florida. For the first time in 30 years, Florida's voters are going to elect a Democratic governor next November. I do think Byron Donalds, who has the backing of Donald Trump, will be challenged by a proxy candidate for Ron DeSantis that might be his wife or his lieutenant governor. There will be an epic Republican primary in the state of Florida for the next year. They will destroy each other. The dirt that, that the DeSantis camp is already shoveling around on Donald's makes Mark Robinson blush. I mean that Republicans are about to go at it. They are about to go at it in Florida. And so my what I bet Is there any pizza?

[A]

Is there any, are there any pizza stories for Myron Donald's or I'm gonna.

[B]

Leave that to Republicans. ROBINSON BLUSH the only reason I know about this is the press has asked me to comment and I've said I don't know about it. I don't want to know about it. That's their family feud. But what we know from Robinson is Donald Trump will still get Donald's back. And I think Donald's comes out beating the DeSantis proxy candidate and is very wounded. So then my job as a Democrat for the next 14 months is to unify our party. And I say this to Democrats where I am insufficient. Make me smarter where I need to be made stronger. Help me. I want to lead shoulder to shoulder, not out front. My race is not about lifting my voice. It's about lifting yours. And so if we build a coalition across Florida that amplifies Democratic values, gives reason for independents and Republicans to say, you know what, I might still vote for a Republican in the Senate race or my congressional race, but in that governor's race, I can actually see a new direction. Maybe I'll vote for a Democrat for the first time. This is the opportunity Democrats have. The fail point for us will be if we turn on each other. And so that's why I say these values are big enough to hold us together. Let's go. Contrast that with Byron Donald's or DeSantis Proxy, and I think we win.

[A]

All right, David Jolly.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Good to see you with your candidate jacket on. Good luck out there. Good luck with the kids. Have fun in the lazy river and keep us posted on the campaign.

[B]

All right, I'll do it. Thanks, Tim. Good to be with you.

[A]

All right, everybody else up next, Van Lathan. All right, and we're back. Pumped for this. He's the co host of Higher Learning, which covers the biggest topics in black culture and politics. He's also the Ringer Tailgate show, which is my new college football pot of choice. And he's a periodic sparring partner for Scott Jennings on cnn. It's the pride of Baton Rouge himself, Van Lathan. What's up, man?

[C]

What's up, man? What a fantastic intro.

[A]

How's that? That's pretty good. I just wrote that two seconds ago. I know I can do it. Just myself, right? I'm just fucking freelancing, writing your intros, gassing you up. All right, this is what happened. And I've been wanting to have you on for a while. Anyway. We did the YouTube thing a while back. People should check out but for the pod here. And you sent me a text last week. This was before the text about LSU's disastrous performance in Oxford, but this was a text about my interview with Ezra Klein last week. You said this. We need to have a big convo about empathy and dehumanization. Listening to your convo with Ezra, and I assume you're kind of referencing. We had a broader conversation about how essentially we all agree, we all don't like that MAGA dehumanizes trans people, immigrants. We go down the list and how I had. Me and Ezra were talking about some of my concerns about sometimes a dehumanizing attitude towards maga, America, whatever you want to call that, and how that might lead us to some dangerous places and how maybe we can show a little empathy. It seems like you maybe had some objections to that point of view. So I'll just let you cook and we'll take it from there.

[C]

It's not that I have an objection to showing empathy for people, but I think it's important to realize, like, what robs people of empathy. Tyranny and misery are married in a way. They both rob you of your humanity. If you are acting in a tyrannical way, then most of the time that comes with a mentality that you've created to dehumanize the people that you are lording over. Give you an example, slavery in the economic capitalist system. But a tenet of slavery, a tenet of that white supremacy and that economic system was the belief that black Americans or black people or Africans that they were bringing over were subhuman. And in order to continue that, you had to paint them as subhuman. You had to take their humanity away. Because if you see a child, or if you see a mother or if you see a father, if you see human beings with souls, then you're going to start asking questions about why it is you're doing what you're doing, right? So you have to say, these people are beasts. These people have different brains. You get phrenology. You get all of this technology, this cultural technology that's invented alongside the prevailing belief that we have to have free labor. But also misery dehumanizes you. Misery dehumanizes you. Because when you are perpetually and cyclically immiserated, you start doing whatever you have to do to get out of the misery, like, whatever it is. And whereas your opponent or your oppressor or whatever, whoever they are and whatever they're doing, their thing no longer becomes something that human beings are engaging into. It just becomes the force that is immiserating you. So those things are married. I think what society, particularly this society that we live in, what we tend to do is look at people who have been dehumanized by their misery and hold them to a standard that we don't hold tyranny to them. Like, it's an interesting conversation to say how do we find empathy in humanity for the MAGA crowd when their job has been to other and minimize and dehumanize everyone? So the people that are othered, that are dehumanized, that are immiserated, they riot, they yell, they say, hey, we don't want to hear from you. Hey, we don't want to eat with you. Hey, we don't want. That feeling comes from the thing that I am. The human being that I am is under a direct attack. And it's not being negotiated, it's not being discussed. There's no conversation around it. What is being said is we're establishing a standard of Americanism. We're establishing a standard of what regular Americans are. Well, what's normal. A lot of this has revolved around Charlie Kirk. Well, what Charlie Kirk said was. Part of what he said was I want a cookie cutter person doing like operating on me. I don't want a black lesbian. That's a profound statement. When we hear that, we go, wait a minute, so I can't fly. We can't operate. Like what? Like what are we, what are we supposed to do? And then coming out of that, after he is like brutally murdered, right? Something that nobody that I know that's thinking clearly, whatever, in any way endorsed. We have people like Ezra, who I watched on you guys pod and then I watched go back and forth with Ta Nehisi say, doing politics the right way. There's a lionizing of that. And what we're trying to say is that if in fact you sane wash that type of rhetoric, you make it true. And if you sane wash that rhetoric, you make it true. Like you make that true. If you don't say, wait a minute, hold on, stop, pause. Timeout, Out. Time out, time out, time out, time out, time out, time out. This is bad. This is racist. This is mongrelizing the people. This is putting them in a position where they have to fight not only for every right that they have, but to be taken seriously as contributors to society. If you look at that and you in any way don't call it out on its face when you see it, then you're essentially saying it's okay to say from a freedom of speech standpoint, it might be, but. But that it also has some merit. If you say he's doing it the right way. And I'm like, really? The question is like, what are we supposed to do?

[A]

I want to disaggregate a couple of those things. Because I don't. I mean, I push back on Ezra on the he's doing politics the right way thing, I think that. I don't even think really it's worth like obsessing over that because I like said, do you want to edit that? Because, like. But the broader point, I think about whether empathy should be shown for these folks, whether that this should be a moment for de. Escalating versus escalating. You know, the killer, Tyler Robinson, he wasn't immiserated by Charlie Kirk. I mean, right. And he wasn't a black person. He wasn't like me as in a gay person, as a family. Charlie Kirk was against my family. He wanted to make that illegal. Like, he wasn't targeted by Charlie Kirk in any meaningful way. I mean, I guess apparently he had a trans roommate that he felt empathy for, love for potentially that he wanted to avenge. But Tyler Robinson didn't have anything to do with slavery or gay rights or any of that, any of the stuff that civil rights, you know. So I get a little bit. I'm like, well, why are we wrapping all this up in that opposing Charlie Kirk's opinion on all those issues? I feel I can live healthily and separately from the conversation about this man's assassination.

[C]

Well, we also don't know why he did what he did.

[A]

We kind of know. Not really put it on the bullets.

[C]

Well, he's put a lot of things on the bullet, but he hasn't talked about anything. What we're doing right now is we're assuming that we know why he did what he did. I'm not looking to get into his mind as to why he did what he did. Because if we were to try to get into his mind, we'd have to come to terms with something else. As we sit here talking right now, there have been another rash of mass shootings that happen all in the same time. And those mass shootings have a profile. A disaffected young to middle aged white male who has decided in his rage, for whatever the reason that the rage exists, that that rage needs to be taken out on innocent people at a restaurant, at a bar, wherever, and shooting them up. So that's a completely different phenomenon.

[A]

But this is to my point, like, wouldn't we be having a more healthy conversation right now if everybody's focused on that, like the fact that this is a lot of people with mental health issues, too easy access to guns, and how nobody deserves to be killed by a fucking crazy person with access to guns than like having a conversation about, like what the appropriate amount of meanness is to Charlie Kirk in The wake of his death. You know what I mean? Like, that's the part I don't get. Like, why. Why is it so necessary to rehash, like, his worst opinions on the podcast when it doesn't seem like that had anything to do with his death?

[C]

Because they talked about building a statue of him in the rotunda. They gave him a day of remembrance. What I'm saying is the. The conversation around Charlie Kirk's death was quickly, quickly overshadowed by the lionizing him.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

By saying things that we have to be like, wait a second. And then it went from that to, well, how nice should we be to the people that are cheering as masked people march around the streets of America snatching people off. Like, it just. It's like. It's an odd thing. I don't really know how to. How to describe it. It's like Charlie Kirk was killed, and the first thing that I did was get my ass kicked. I went out and said. I came across that video and I said, hey, that was terrible. What I just watched. I don't care what anything I said, that was terrible. That was a terrible thing that just happened. And a lot of people got mad. A lot of people were like, well.

[A]

Man, doesn't that worry you, though? I guess this is my point. Doesn't that worry you, the people that got mad, whether or not they're rooting for it? I guess this is the core of my question. The people that got mad at you for being upset about that. They did in, like, a legitimate way. Maybe. Again, maybe it's less fair to say this or that they are oppressed, so they deserve it more. Whatever. They dehumanized him and his family, like, his kids. They made him a non human. It doesn't matter if his little kids are gonna have to watch videos of him get assassinated, because to me, he's a non human because he had bad opinions. Again, I'm not trying to compare that to slavery, but just in, like, the more narrow definition of dehumanization. Isn't that what that is? Like, I don't care. He's not a human. Because he had bad opinions.

[C]

So this is what I would say to that. Two things. Number one, I have empathy for them. So having empathy for them is understanding why, which is. First thing we did. We did on higher learning was talk about why empathy is important. Why robbing yourself of your empathy is actually has nothing to do with your opponent. It has to do with, like, you've voluntarily taken away a piece of your humanity and why I'm not going to do that. Right. But my empathy for them comes from.

[A]

The fact that them being who just so 1. Clarice, your empathy for the people that are upset at you, for my empathy.

[C]

For black people in that particular situation, because that's the cohort of people that I'm in most community and conversation with is understanding that Trayvon Martin, right? That Mike Brown, that Sandra Bland, Brianna George, all of these people, that they watched these people be killed, some of them by crazed vigilante types, some of them by police action. And then they were told that these people were criminals and thugs and that they deserved it and that they weren't treated like human beings. And so now they're in a cycle where they're saying, if it's me, then it's you. Me showing empathy to them is understanding why they feel the way that they feel and talking to them as a brother, as a member of that community, as to why we have to remember that terrible things are terrible.

[A]

I have empathy for that too. I should just say. I probably would have had a different reaction to my lack of empathy came from. I had a lot of privileged liberal white people telling me that I shouldn't be, shouldn't feel empathy. And I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. You're mad on behalf of other people. I was like, charlie Kirk said my family should be illegal, all right? And you're telling me that I don't get it because it's my, because of my privilege. And I'm like, you're, you're a fucking straight white liberal that lives in a blue city. Like, so. So anyway, I, I hear you. I have empathy for people that, that have that emotional connection, but I didn't really love being lectured by, by people that had less skin in the game.

[C]

Well, I mean, there was all kinds of stuff. Charlie Kirk himself said that empathy was overrated. And what he was actually, I'm not.

[A]

Trying to be him, I guess is my point though.

[C]

I get it. But what I'm saying is they hear that. And what they hear is intellectual and political argument as why their suffering shouldn't count. They hear an intellectual political argument to why their immiseration doesn't mean anything. Like, he said that. And then they go, okay, well, he's making excuses. This is a Christian. He's making excuses and backing them up with what he believes is real world examples about why your tears and why your fear and why your existence, why that shouldn't matter. And then something happens to him. And if you go by his book, people automatically Say what a terrible person you are.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

My thing is, I don't let somebody else's lack of empathy or lack of whatever define me. I'm defined in myself with a connection to something that's greater than me, which is God and then community. And that's what I am. And we have to have a conversation about that. While we were in the middle of that conversation of really talking about how we stay whole and don't become ghosts of ourselves as we continue to move forward and press things forward, the same washing of some of this rhetoric started. The flags at half mast started. The pictures up at baseball games started. The celebration started. And when the celebration started, whereas we could have disagreed on the stuff before, when the celebration started, I thought that there would be a really united front that came from the left that went, hey, wait a second. This part of it, we shouldn't do. This part of it we can't do. The way to be. To have this conversation is to have a conversation about the reality and the truth of the words that we're saying and what actually happened. And. And even in that, what we're told is, like, why it's better to tell nice lies than inconvenient truths about the life someone led.

[A]

I agree with that. I agree with that. Just so we can find a bridge to try to just narrow down our areas of maybe difference here. Yeah, 100% agree with that. My point is, I think you took the first step of the empathy step. I was pretty alarmed by the number of people, and I'm not. Because you're specifically talking about your audience, which is mostly black folks in a community. I'm just talking about broadly speaking. I was pretty alarmed by the number of people. I kind of skipped the first step. That's a red flag for things that might come later. So I'm with you on the fucking. I don't. Charlie Kirk statues. People should fight that and protest that, and that's fine. I'm cool with all that.

[C]

You understand that those people feel like they're in crisis. Right. I looked at that and I stepped back and I go, wait, hold on a second.

[A]

Some of them are not in crisis. I talked to some people who weren't in crisis who were living pretty dec lives, actually, that were pretty happy.

[C]

No, no, no, no, no. When I say I don't mean in crisis in terms of they're broke or they don't. I'm talking about they're angry and they're not seeing straight. They're using the wrong part of their brain. Right. Now to. To analyze all of these problems, and it's like.

[A]

And that's bad, right? That's what I'm saying. That's bad, isn't it?

[C]

It's bad.

[A]

Be that unhealthily angry at this guy that you're like, kind of. It's cool.

[C]

This is what I would say. The anger isn't useful. Well, hold on. That's bullshit. The anger is definitely very useful. It's insanely useful. The anger is what's keeping people motivated. But understand, people feel like they're in an existential fight. And when they feel like that. And by the way, they didn't conjure that belief, the fact that they are in an existential fight comes from them watching history being ripped away and trans people on the run and brown people on the run and freedom of speech and every single norm and the authority of the court and all of that. They feel like it's go time right now, bottom of the ninth inning, and things are up. So rather than me look at them and judge them from a reaction that doesn't show them on their best day, in my opinion, the question is, stop. Let's talk about it. But as we talk about it, let's look at it in a holistic way and think about what led to the climate that we're in right now. Because if we don't do that, then what we're saying is rise above. And I think people are being. They're sick of being told to rise above because it's not working.

[A]

Yeah, I hear that. And Ezra taped his Ben Shapiro interview before all this happened, so that got a little bit warped, I think. But, like, I've said this on several pods. I've discussed, like, the Ben Shapiro being like, you're saying we need to discuss how we got here. And Ben Shapiro's like, we got here because Barack Obama said Trayvon Martin, like, could have been his son. And it's like, well, wait, no, the opposite of that. Actually, we got here because of Trump, like, running against Morocco. Trayvon, you know, because of what happened to Trayvon, and then because Trump ran on a racist lie and then he was nominated. Right.

[C]

Can I say something about Ben Shapiro in that statement? Because we got here because Barack Obama said that Trayvon Martin could have been his son. Ben Shapiro, trusted voice on the right. Ben Shapiro tweeted something like, trayvon Martin would have turned whatever today if he hadn't gotten in a fight with a guy and tried to murder him in a street fight. Right.

[A]

In a hoodie, whatever.

[C]

He tweeted. That on Trayvon Martin's birthday every year.

[A]

For a couple years. Sick.

[C]

What type of fucking ghoul do you have to be to see a collective people mourning the death of a kid that was stalked, provoked, and then killed by a would be vigilante? And then every year to draw glee and joy out of trolling those people over the death of a 16 year old boy? And then you come back and you crazy. Do people think that we don't know when we're being fucked with? You're fucking with me. You're fucking with me and you're fuck with me on such a level that I can't even put my arms around the anger. Every time I see him sitting down and talking to someone, I go ask him about it. Yeah, just ask him about why you would do that.

[A]

Yeah, I'd love to see you defend it outside the keyboard. I agree. Ask him about why you would invite him on. I'll ask him if he ever comes on.

[C]

You're only doing that to make people sad. And they'll throw red meat to your base that enjoys the fact that you're trolling us and poking fun at us over a tremendous tragedy, the loss of a black child. If we were talking about empathy, whatever you feel about the stand your ground law, all of that shit is bullshit to me. But if we were talking about empathy, the empathy would be like, you know, however we feel about this, and I have no illusions about who I think is responsible for the death of Trayvon Martin. I want to say that clearly. But however we feel about this, people are hurt, they're grieving, and it's just not shown. And you get so rich and you get so up there. And then when it's time to have a salient conversation, you sit down with somebody from the New York Times after you've done all of this, we're looking at it, it, we see it and then we're being told we're the people that need to act better. And I'm like, yo, it's like, what's what?

[A]

Yeah, okay, I agree with that. Agree. Crazy. It's crazy making. I understand how it's crazy making, but we're called to not become crazy. It's kind of just sort of wrap this all around because you sent a tweet today, I think is another area potentially of disagreement that we have that I just want to hash out on this. You wrote this. We're in need of John Brown's, but absolutely flush with Ezra clients. And for most of, I think my Viewers, listeners are familiar with John Brown, but he was kind of vigilante during the Unionist. An abolitionist vigilante from Missouri, my birth state, during the slave days. And a hero, really, in a lot of ways. Also a murderer. Also a murderer. Right. And I just. Seriously, I don't think we're there, and I don't think that our brains sometimes are made to deal in the gray. I know you deal in the gray a lot on your show, but the human brain is not made for that. That it's like, wait, this is a really bad time. We're in a very serious fight. We are in a fight for our way of our governance. The other side does want ill for most people. The other side is ghoulish. They're doing things, particularly to immigrants and trans people, that are completely unacceptable. But also they're coming for gays and black folks next. And then some black folks are getting it too. But in particular, migrants and trans in particular, they're at the tip of the spear right now in this very moment. But, you know, we also still got elections ahead of us.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

They also have demonstrated weakness lately. Like, some of their ghoulish plans have been pushed back on through normal systems. We're in a bleak place, but I don't know that we're in a place of vigilantism. I just. I reject that. I think we have a lot more. I think we have a lot more cards left to play before we have to play the John Brown card.

[C]

Let me ask you a question. When I say the word George Washington, like, what do you think about. About. I'm not asking. Don't give a woke answer. Just tell me what you think. Don't give me. Don't. Don't give me. When I think about George, first president.

[A]

Apple pie, $1 bill.

[C]

President, you know, wooden teeth. Right. Father of freedom.

[A]

The establishment thought he did a really good thing. First thing comes to mind, actually, is that he could have become a king and he chose not to. That's the first thing that I think of, actually. Okay, that's my non woke answer.

[C]

The first thing that I think about when I think about John Brown is not how many people he killed. And the reason why I asked you that question about George Washington is because George Washington was a warrior.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

George Washington was a general in army. George Washington had a lot of blood on his hands. But when you think about him, that's not the first thing that you think about. Why? Because you think about the cause. And so the cause is what you think about. When I Think about John Brown. What I think. I don't think about the. The. The vigilantism. What I think about is someone who was unabashedly, directly engaged with a politic at a time where it was unpopular. John Brown was, in many ways, did things that I might not have done. I might have done them then, but in many ways did things that, you know, I certainly wouldn't do today. Let me put it to you. Let me put it like that. But. But what he was, was at a time when it was unpopular to caucus with black people, to be in line with something that he thought was a moral abomination. He gave his life and did some things that were terrible because he thought what was happening to this group of people was wrong. When I say that we need more John Browns, I don't mean that we need more people to go as far as what he did. That's not what I'm saying. What I think we need more people that have the moral clarity to say, this, in fact, is wrong. It's wrong on Monday, it's wrong on Thursday, it's wrong on Friday. And my voice will be as loud as it needs to be in decrying the thing that is happening. That is what I mean. The reason why I bring up Washington or whomever else is because I could tell you right now one of the most dedicated slavers in the history of America. Right. Like, legitimately, and we could talk about all of these guys. But when we think about them, we think about the things that are inherently good, about the causes that we believe them to have been involved in.

[A]

I hear that.

[C]

And John Brown was an abolitionist. And an abolitionist who eventually was hung and killed because he stood by people at a time when it wasn't popular to do so. And that's what black people need, particularly from our white friends on the left. I'm not saying we have to agree about everything. I'm definitely not saying that we need to go out there and commit any acts of violence or terrorism. But what I am saying is, if Ta Nehisi Coates tells you I live and walk every single day of my life with existential dread. I know people that have stories of lynching, and you come back and you go, yeah, but how Democrats gonna win the Senate seat in Arkansas?

[A]

What?

[C]

What?

[A]

I hear you. No, look, man. But I guess this is. I guess so. I'm with you. I have empathy for that totally. And in that definition of John Brown, I don't have any issues with your tweet because obviously there's A lot to admire about that cause and that fight. I guess I just worry that. How do I want to put this? Here's what I worry about. I see a lot of people out there that are going back to your point earlier about how people that are angry. I see a lot of people out there that are letting their anger consume them. And in my world, I'm mostly talking about white folks, to be honest. But I think that this speaks to what Ta Nehisi was trying to say and what you're trying to say about what people's reactions were to this. There are people that are legitimately afraid and legitimately scared right now. And I worry a little bit about my people letting that own them and letting the craziest. Just 1% of that crowd feel emboldened to do something about it. And, and I just. I'm a little shook by what we've seen the last few weeks. And I'm very morally clear eyed about the other side being bad. And I just don't want us to become them. I guess is where I'm leaving it. Is that a legit concern? Do you not. You're not worried about that? You don't feel that in the air?

[C]

Am I worried about becoming the other.

[A]

Side or are you worried about just kind of escalating political violence back and forth and people feeling like they are justified because of the legitimate past grievances they have because of their anger and because of their fear.

[C]

I abhor political violence. I know abhor it. Just any place where the ideas can get you killed is. It's grotesque to me. I think I have a different relationship to violence than most might certainly have.

[A]

A different relationship to it than I do. So we can. I'll say it so you don't have to.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so like, I think that the specter of violence and everything that surrounds it is not paralyzing enough for me to make me stop short at anything in terms of my ideals. So what I mean is I don't feel the need to ratchet any part of truth telling down because of what could happen. It's impossible for me to feel that way because I had to walk to the bus and go to school. I had to walk through South Baton Rouge and go to my grandfather house. Like going to a party was an exercise in luck. Right? Right. Like you start getting calls. Jason's dead, Teer dead, Delvin's dead. You put the, the, the whole thing together. George Temple, your man George is dead. Well, he gets pulled over by police. Him and the police get into some sort of altercation, somebody walks out of an auto zone and shoots him four times. The specter of violence has been a part of my life for a long time. So it hanging over this political climate is saddening to me and it's certainly, I certainly move with caution and I think it's a terrible and a horrible thing. But if in any way that would stop me from saying something that I felt like needed to be said with the fervor and the aggression and the truth that needed to be said, I think I can't consider that. And it's interesting because like for years and years and years, I don't mean to laugh but for years and years and years we've been looking into screens and going places and being like, hey, our lives are on the line. Just to let you guys know and not even with, from the police or anything like that, or from inter community violence or anything like that, we're saying, hey, we're drinking dirty water. Hey, the water's dirty. Just to let you guys know the water's dirty like just to let you guys know this chemical plant or like it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us, it's killing us. Ah, just go, go vote. Ah, do all of that stuff. And now it seems like sometimes that some of you are afraid in a very real way and your reaction to the fear is to say, how can we make nice with the thing? And we're saying.

[A]

I'm not saying make nice. Not saying make nice. I'm just saying that we shouldn't. Okay, well what do you mean by make nice? I'm not saying make nice. I'm not it, I, I'm not making nice with any of the MAGA people. I'm spending most of my days arguing with them and, and shouting at them.

[C]

So what are you saying then? Like tell me. Maybe I'm going over.

[A]

I'm saying, I'm saying that all I have control over is my own self and, and all I have influence over is the people that are listening to me, right? So I, I speaking for my own self and the people that are listening to and, and what I'm hoping to offer to the people that are listening to me is like, I don't want us to become so consumed by fear and anger about this threat that is a real threat that I want us to fight with our words and at the ballot boxes and everywhere, but I don't want us to become so Consumed with it, that we do not look at people across the street and see them as humans that have sins and skills and good traits and bad traits. And I don't want us to become so consumed by it that we become. Feel so hopeless that some percentage of us decide that that hopelessness necessitates extreme action. I want us to feel like this is a very real and dangerous threat that we can meet in a liberal democratic society and we can do so and be clear eyed about it. But we don't want to go so far as to have it be like some kind of civil war. Right? Like, no, this is there. You know what I mean? No, this is where the end times, extreme measures are called for. I'm just like, that's all I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to make nice. I'm just trying to calibrate with people where we're at.

[C]

Okay, that's fair. This is what I would say. I agree. I took a walk this morning and I walked around and I do my whole, like, when I take the walk, y' all gonna think this is. But this is true. When I take the walk, I have a good morning diet, meaning I have amount of good mornings I have to say. Now, I wish I could take credit for that, but my therapist, my therapist says you're taking a walk, you're out walking in the sun.

[A]

Hey, listen, now, this is actually kind of normal here in my neighborhood in New Orleans. I'm wondering how that's playing in la, how your good mornings are playing.

[C]

You know what's funny is people say that, but it's just fine. You say good morning to somebody and you flash the smile, they're happy that you said it. Like they're, they're happy that you, that you said the good morning to them. You would think in Louisiana, you walk around, somebody will stop you, be like, hey, I said good morning, God damn it. Jesus made this morning for you. Why don't you say it back? But in la, you walk around, good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Hey, good morning. Good morning. Good morning, sir. Good morning, sir. You see it all. It's fine. I love being a good part of somebody's day. I love that. That's one of my favorite things. I see so many people that feel unseen, they feel unheard, like nobody's talking to them, nobody's thinking about them. Just being the good portion of somebody's day is an amazing thing for me. Everything that you said has a place in discourse. What I'm trying to figure out And I think the central question that we're all asking is with this particular political movement, one that wields the MAGA hat as a stop sign. It's a stop sign. It's a rallying cross.

[A]

It's a middle finger. I mean, it's a middle finger. Yeah, it is. I like Rich Lowry, the National Review, said it like that. Said it that much. It's a middle finger to the people that are right.

[C]

So, like, in that situation, when it means so much and it's insulting and it's debasing and it's all of that, what would you like me to do? I mean, that's the question. Like, what would you like me to do? I don't look at you as not a human. I can't look at you as not a human because you are the reflection of God as. As we all not to turn this into. Because I'll start praise dancing in this motherfucker.

[A]

Let's do it. If you got a hymn you want to do at the end, we usually end with a song, but we can do an end with a hymn instead.

[C]

Yeah, but. But I guess it's a. It's a real interesting place to be in because other than be the person that I am, I have to tell the truth about what it is that your politics and your worldview represent. Like, I have to tell the truth to you, and that truth will not be polite. Not going to call you a name. Not going to call you. But I have to let you know that. That the political movement that you are a part of is a political movement that seeks to other so many people in this country and fundamentally change. Fundamentally change the trajectory that America was on. In my opinion, that, like, I can't tolerate some of. Not the views, but the actual actions. I can't tolerate sending people to deport them to countries they've never been to. I can't tolerate the subversion of the rule of law. I can't tolerate the FCC chair taking Jimmy off the air because the President wants. These are things I can't tolerate. So you tell me, for the people like me, how do we continue to see humanity in people who seemingly want to strip us of the rights that we're supposed to have gotten, have never really gotten into country.

[A]

It's really hard. It's really hard, man. I don't know. I struggle with it. I'm not out here going, like, I want to go to Charlie, a family member. I don't want to go to Ben Shapiro's house and hug him. I'M not trying to like vote for, you know what I mean? It's hard. I don't know. It's hard, but I don't, I'm just, I don't think that the other path is one that's going to yield a result that's any better for any of us, I guess is my point. Right.

[C]

Like, what do you feel like the other path is?

[A]

Essentially, I think about it, obviously there are differences because there's no racial component, et cetera. But like, I think about the troubles kind of in Ireland. I don't think like we're so far away from something like that or. The other example I gave on a show recently was like the Balkans, like, and, and, but you know, in both of those cases it's, it's religion and nationality, ethnicity. Right. In this case it's kind of like, like it's a little bit more vague than that. Right. And there's some race to it, of course, and, and sexuality part of it, or gender at least. And, and it's kind of where you live and your communities. But like we get to a place where like we go through, now some people, like where everybody is so upset at each other, we go through some period of, you know, randomized violence. I just, I don't think we're that far from that. And I'm just trying to put brakes on it, that's all. I'm not telling, I'm not asking. And I'm, I'm just saying like, if you got a fucking maga aunt, you know, I don't think you should be calling her every day and saying, great job Aunt Jane. But I'm just saying, like, you can just go to her Christmas and just give her a fucking hug and just like talk about the fucking cardinals. I don't know. That's what I'm asking of you. That's all I'm, that's all I'm asking. And I'm not saying I fucking struggle with it. You don't think I struggle with it? People watch this channel. I say some nasty ass things about these people, like, you know, but I just, I worry we're a little bit of an inflection point that I'm, that scares me.

[C]

Me. I get that. By the way. I have conversations with and, and know people from all sides of the political spectrum.

[A]

But I know you said, yeah, I.

[C]

Think it's important to even like a gentleman, because I am a gentleman. I think it's important to unmask things. So I was having a conversation with a pretty Big broadcaster not too long ago, we're having a conversation about, like, after Trump was elected, how he. He rolled back some environmental justice initiatives that literally, like, the week that he was elected, he rolled back some environmental. Or said that he was going to roll them back. He wasn't president yet. So, hey, we're going to be getting rid of this, we're going to be getting rid of that. And, you know, some of these things were about environmental standards in black and brown neighborhoods. And I'm having a conversation with this person, and we're. We're talking about different things. And I said to them, I guess they said they were rolling these things back because they were a woke overreach. Do you think that it is woke for black children to drink clean water? Is that woke?

[A]

I do not. Was that a question for me or is that a rhetorical question?

[C]

Shut up. And so if there is a specific initiative to the DOJ case in Alabama, when there's legitimately shit in the water and Trump's doj, like, it's like such a.

[A]

You, man.

[C]

Like, they get up, like, do you think. Is that wrong? And if you don't think that it is, it's not that our converse. Nah, I'm not with it, man. I'm sorry, bro. I try. I'm trying. If, if. If you tell me that in order to. For your side to have power, then my cousins in Alabama gotta drink shit in the water. I really don't know what I'm supposed to do.

[A]

Beat em. Beat em. This is. I guess this is my point. Beat em. Beat them. And so I think this is what Ezra would say, and I totally. I take your point about that conversation with Ta Nehisi, and it's like he's talking about all of this legitimate fear people have and the fucking decades of oppression, and you shouldn't respond to that by saying, let's win a Senate seat in Alabama. I get that. Like, as a human, we have to have empathy for people who, for anybody that is, like, dealing with kind of. That kind of trauma and fucking oppression, state oppression at best. Now, we are here, though, and, like, my suggestion would be, like, getting really fucking pissed. And, like, there's a place for fighting, there's a place for persuasion. There's a place for, like, there's a place for all this stuff, right? Like, like, sporadic violence is not going to help. That's going to let them fucking crack down more, right? Like, look at Portland, right? If people start throwing Molotov cocktails at those troops next week and they Go to Portland. Is that going to help the anti fascist cause or hurt it? I think it's going to hurt it. You know what I mean? And so the thing is, it's like if you want to get fucking clean water to those black kids in Alabama, then you need to have 51 fucking senators that want to put that environmental rule back in. And so to do that you got to win a fucking Senate seat. And I Iowa, you know what I mean? And like that's not a crazy point. Like that's like, it's a little less fulfilling than like speaking truth. I want to speak truth, but I also want to win a Senate seat in Iowa. Are those two things incompatible?

[C]

Well, everybody has different jobs, first of all.

[A]

Yeah, that's true.

[C]

So the politicians have to politic and the people that are talking directly to people and to their concerns, they have to be as pure in their connectivity as they can be. Right? So everybody has different jobs. So it's some people's job to compromise. It's some people's job to not compromise. Right. And I'm saying guys like you and me, we should trade Cs. You trade me some compassion and I'll trade you. Not necessarily coming at you. Yeah, sure, I'll trade you some curses. Right. So it's bad. It is bad, right? It's totally bad.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And before we go, it's so bad that we're going to sane wash things that don't make any sense. Let's understand that we're in the bad time and we're going to walk through a little bit of a fire. They're going to be some burns, right? But let's each keep our eyes on the fact that compassion and courage in a fight go hand in hand. They are together. You have to orient what it is that you're doing around sort of universal truths for people, things that you believe in. People have a right to health care, they have a right to shelter, they have the right to vote. They have the right to move around freely, unfettered and unmolested by the state. They have these things and these are the things that you're fighting for. And the equity and equality that you want for people, if that is in the crosshairs from other, from other groups, then you have to be courageous in standing up to that. Do you need to have compassion to live in society and community with people? Yes, you do. To share community, there has to be compassion. Almost everything that we have right is built upon pro evolutionary traits that have furthered humanity into being a race that can cooperate with one another. Right. I get that, and I understand that.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

But it. There's really no but. There's an and. And on top of that, what I also understand is that there are specific threats that are inflamed. Lies are like steroids to them. And not just lies, but. But being passive is like steroids to those things. They take you sticking your hand out and shaking it sometimes as a sign of weakness. Sometimes you must not shake hands. Sometimes you must say, we will shake hands after we found something to agree with. Sometimes you say, you are safe in talking to me, but after we've established that, that there's a framework for humanity on both sides of this table, we can then shake hands. But I don't know. I hear you. The thing that I took away from Ezra and Ta Nehisi's conversation is that they were having two different conversations. Ezra Klein is like, hey, I want to protect people by politically moving and shaking and making sure that we're empowered to protect them. And Ta Nehisi was saying, I want to protect people by being a beacon of truth to them. So they know that somewhere, someone with a huge voice hears what they are saying and sees themselves, sees himself in them. Both of those things are equally as important. But what it seemed like was in the aftermath of Kirk's death is that some of our. Our white friends on the left were saying, it's okay that they're going to build this guy's statue. They should. If building this guy's statue tampers things down, fine. If giving a national day of remembrance to him tampers things down, then that's fine. And we're like, no, I can't do that now. Lest we be overlooked. And at the back of the bus.

[A]

In perpetuity, let me be abundantly clear. No statue for me. All right, last thing. Paul Feinbaum, the Voice of the South. For folks who are not big SEC football consumers, Paul Fine Bounds. You're probably the biggest whatever commentator. The Rush Limbaugh of SEC football, maybe. Radio host. How about that? That's espn.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The story today is out with Clay Travis. We could do a whole nother podcast on Clay Travis. We're just going to let that sit in the air. And he said to Clay that he was inspired by Charlie Kirk's tale death. And he's been getting some calls from Washington and he's thinking about running for Tommy Tuberville's seat. And I have to know what Van Lathan thinks about that.

[C]

This is one of my favorite things that's happening recently. I want to see just how disgusting Paul Feinbomb can get. Let me tell. Let me tell you why, because there's something that. That's, like, been happening recently, and it's been like a fun journey. Well, not fun, but really interesting journey to see just how disgusting. Like Dr. Oz, you know Dr. Oz?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Let's see just how fucked up Dr. Oz can become. Dr. Phil. We know Dr. Phil. Let's see just how fucked Up Dr. Phil can become. Yeah, the list goes on. Tommy Tuberville.

[A]

You know my Bruce Pearl recently.

[C]

Bruce Pearl. Let's just see how far the rabbit hole goes. Can we get an N word out? You like, like how.

[A]

Like, how bad can it get for the gulag? Does Fine Bomb want to send people to El Salvador? I don't know.

[C]

I'd like to learn what is Fine Bomb gonna say? When are we gonna get the boys and girls sports rant? When are we gonna get the. Like, what is Fine Bomb gonna do? I want to see how bad it can get. And so when I saw them, I'm like, paul, just to let you know, you can't get a little bit pregnant if you jump into that seat. You gotta go full on demon time. And I'm not talking about being on the phone with legend, the Alabama fan or whatever. I'm talking about Paul. You gotta go all the fucking way.

[A]

Did you know Paul was a maga? Paul once followed me on social media, and so I thought he might be a normal until this news came out. Then I went and looked, and I guess he's unfollowed me. So at some point he must have got radicalized. I don't know. Unless he was just a MAGA interloper the whole time.

[C]

Do you know I've done the show before? I. I had no idea. College football is an interesting thing because you follow the college football voices. These are normally white Southern gentlemen and you assume. But let me tell you something about college football that's like super interesting. It's not always like this. I don't want to wax poetic, but when you're in Tiger Stadium on a Saturday now when you're on the yard, it's a different situation. When you're on the yard on Southern's campus, we just having fun. We getting into it. It's the whole deal, right? There's so much celebration going on. It's a cultural celebration with a football game happening. LSU is a football game happening with a cultural celebration around it.

[A]

Right.

[C]

When you're in the stands, not all the time. Because there's, you know, how it goes. But it's almost like a little truth sometimes. College football sometimes feels like a little truce. You know where you at, you know where you are.

[A]

They know where I. They can look at my outfit. They know where I'm at.

[C]

They. We know where you at. But it feels like a little truth. So when. When those guys get to talking politics, you can assume what their politics are, but almost feels. Feels like it breaks the fourth wall of college football to get into that stuff a lot of times, because when they go, they go hard and they don't ever come back.

[A]

Yeah, I like the truce, man. I guess that's what I'm saying, you know, you see, See, you even like it. You're getting soft like me in there for a second. One second there, a little soft van came out. You like the truth. You like the truce right there at the tailgate. At the tailgate. You're down for the truce.

[C]

Yeah. It's so funny. It's so funny, man. It's like this right here is. People know me. I'm here to have a good fun and talk about all of our differences, you know? This is the last thing I'll say. I don't want to take up too much time, because I know you got more important white people to talk to, but Christianity is an interesting thing. I'm from Louisiana, born and raised in Baton Rouge. We talked about that. That, man, there were. It's just different. It really is different. It's like there were people that I saw take people in, feed them, clothe them, look after them, bring them in the house. Baby, are you okay? You need something to eat? And then you look up and it's a picture of Ronald Reagan on their wall. It just used to mean something. There was always a part of it that was political. But there used to be. Where I'm from, there was a sense of community. It's difficult to explain. There was a sense of community, even, that shattered the intense racial divide that's always existed that you could still feel right. You always realized your situation. You always saw what they had and what you didn't have. But there used to be something, even an attempt, and, man, that's gone. Like, there's an overt meanness, an overt us versus them. Yeah, that is. I can't. I don't. I don't. I don't really even know how to talk about it. In a way, it's just. It's mean. Like, it's. It's mean and it's aggressive and it's not for you. And that's kind of how it feels.

[A]

Yeah, that sucks. It's on Louisiana. I always said there about Kim Mulkey, who's MAGA and all this, but it's just like, oh, she women's basketball coach. Like, she kind of represents Louisiana. It's like she's coaching all these black girls and like, at some level you can, like, see the heart that she has for him. But, like, then, you know, she's going to go to the fundraiser for Jeff Landry, like on the backside, you know, and there just isn't as much of that happening. All right. You really think the LSU tigers are 8 and 4?

[C]

I saw you tweet. We can't run a ball.

[A]

Come on. No way. Not 8 and 4, though.

[C]

You tell me where you see a victory.

[A]

Can I get nine?

[C]

Can I get where you see a victory?

[A]

Like, I think. I think we. I think we'll beat South Carolina.

[C]

We should be talking.

[A]

We're to be Western Kentucky.

[C]

Kentucky.

[A]

We're going to beat A and M at home.

[C]

It's a fucking game.

[A]

And. And what? So that's three and two, Vandy. We're going to go Vandy get a win. That's four more wins.

[C]

For a second you can Georgia State.

[A]

That's five more wins. That's five more wins. Nine and three.

[C]

At this point, you want to bet? You cannot assume.

[A]

I bet you I got nine. I bet you bet you got eight and a half over. I'm over eight and a half.

[C]

What are we betting is if. If they win nine or 10, me, you and Ezra can host the nice a thon when we.

[A]

Just like that. That. No. You're buying my ticket to the playoff game. We go to the playoffs. You're buying my ticket to the playoff game. We don't go to the playoffs. You can fucking yell at me or whatever you want to do.

[C]

Gotcha. That's done.

[A]

I'll take you to dinner. I'll pay for dinner. You can yell at me the whole time. There you go. That's the bet, everybody. That's fan lady.

[C]

Appreciate you, man. That was a lot of fun, bro. Peace.

[A]

All right, thanks so much to David Jolly and Van Lathan. Check out TNL for more tonight. We're just loading you up with podcast material today and I'll be back tomorrow as usual for another edition of this very podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace.

[C]

Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do. Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.

[A]

For real and not a clue.

[C]

Beware the false motives of others. Be careful of those who pretend to be brothers and you never suppose it's those who are closest to you, you to you. They say all the right things to gain their position. They use your kindness as their AM to shoot you down in the name of ambition Them father, for they know not what they do. Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do.

[A]

Forgive them. Forgive them.

[C]

Love your while them rip you to shs.

[A]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.