B (2:24)

To me, the key word in what you just said was online. Democrats online are really pissed off. This is not an online thing. This is a real life thing.

A (2:33)

Okay?

B (2:34)

And I know that people wish that the Republicans would have folded because of the pain that a lot of people were suffering because of the shutdown, but. But the sad truth is that the Republican Party doesn't care as much about the pain as the Democratic Party does.

A (2:47)

He doesn't care at all. I think we can say pretty much doesn't care at all.

B (2:50)

Absolutely. And you can call that a political weakness, and I guess it is. But if you are doing the right thing, that will always be a political weakness. I don't have a problem with this deal, Okay? I just don't have a problem with it. It ends the immediate pressure on. You know, there was people losing SNAP benefits, people going hungry, for God's sake, all the federal employees who are out of work, obviously the air traffic problem. The Democrats did not sell out forever, okay? They made this deal until the end of January. That's it. That's it. It went from the four month period from where we started. What is it now? Two and a half months away. So it's a short term concession to end the immediate pain. They still have. They got the SNAP benefits extended. I don't have a problem with the deal. Plus the healthcare debate, it's not ended. People think like the, oh, you know, we should have held out more. We should have had people suffer more right now for healthcare. The healthcare debate is front and center. It will remain front and center. There's gonna be a vote next month. There's gonna be a vote in December. Our colleague Jonathan Cohen pointed out the premium hikes are gonna go into effect in January before the next time that this, this, that we have this next shutdown debate. So I don't think it's a terrible loss. I think Democrats are still standing up for what they fought for. And I think only if you are so online that you don't feel the pain that, that a lot of people are feeling over the shutdown, would you think this is a total sellout?

A (4:14)

And so here's my view on it. If you came into this shutdown fight like I did, which was what was the objectives of it, I thought it was worth doing for this reason. I thought it was worth doing to make the Republicans own something. They chose to be health care. It could have been something else. They chose health care. Make them own this, they make them own their own policies. Make clear that the Democrats are on the other side of that fight. They've done that. If the other objective was to demonstrate that the Democrats have a pulse and are awake and there's blood flowing through their veins, they did that. If you came into the shutdown fight thinking that your goal was that the Obamacare subsidies are gonna be restored, I think that you were setting yourself up to be disappointed no matter what, because the Republicans controlled the government and controlled the House of Representatives, and there was no amount of pain that was going to make the these. You can't negotiate with kamikazes. You can't negotiate with people that don't care. You're playing chicken with somebody that wants to crash. So you are never going to win a game of chicken with somebody that wants to crash. Okay? And so if that was your expectation, I can understand why you're disappointed. If your expectation is that you also want to crash, that you want as much pain as possible because you're so mad that Donald Trump won and you're so mad, and you need those feelings validated, and so you want this to go on forever, Okay? I just don't know what to tell you because that isn't real. And so, from my perspective, put this out this morning. I think the Democrats potentially could lose the shutdown fight if they end up doing a circular firing squad over it. But as of right now, they won. What will matter in the next year's midterms is that Republicans shit healthcare policies, the shit economy and the tariffs, and the Democrats can run on that. Now, the Democrats did fight like Republicans this time. We hear that a lot, where it's like, oh, the Democrats are weak, Republicans are. This is a longer shutdown than any Tea Party shutdown. This was longer than any. I remember how crazy the Democrats acted. Like the crazy Tea Partyers were like, these are insane terrorists. They're not in touch with the reality at all. They're extremists. They never have a shutdown that went this long. And I think that the idea that there was going to be the Obamacare subsidies are going to come back is wrong. Like, the idea should have always been people's health care is going to go up. That sucks. And the Democrats need to fight against it. And that's kind of where we stand. So that's where I'm at on it.

B (6:32)

I agree with that. People who think this is a sell. Look, I am a squish, okay? I am the person. I'm like an institutionalist.

A (6:39)

We're going to get to that.

B (6:39)

I mean, Tim, I like the filibuster. That's how. That's where I am.

A (6:42)

Okay? So, okay, we just. 25% of the audience just signed up. Stick around. We have other takes that are coming you'll like better.

B (6:50)

I just. I just want people to have perspective on what the Senate Democrats did here. They did not squish out like me. The blame for the shutdown goes all around. And I would put a lot of blame on Donald Trump for being the first president who didn't give a damn during a shutdown. It didn't do anything to help end it. But it is true that the Senate Democrats refused to sign off on essentially a clean continuing resolution. That was a big step for them. That was like, they really went to the mat to fight for this. Okay. They pushed it to the point where they got this issue front and center. They're going to come back to it. They already crossed that line. I want to point out one thing about the Democrats who crossed the line, the eight who voted for this. Tim. I was just looking at the list of senators who were up in 2026. Two of the senators of those eight who crossed the line are up in 2026 and they're retiring. Yeah, that's it. So nobody who's running for reelection. So this was what I think. You tell me if I'm crazy. This is a conspiracy theory. When you get exactly enough votes to pass the thing and no more. And when none of those people are up, and when, like, the two senators are in Virginia, one of them who's up in 2026 doesn't vote for this deal. The other one does. All of that says to me that there were other Democrats in the Senate who would have voted for this, but who did not. They wanted to cover their left flank by not voting for it. What do you think?

A (8:11)

I know for sure that's true. It's not a conspiracy theory. I know for sure it's true because I've heard from some that are in that boat. So that's just where we're at. Here's where I'm at. I'm a podcaster now, so I get to just say what I really think, which is that this is just. The Republicans were never going to fold and the Democrats got all they're going to get out of this politically. And. And so one battle after another, move on to win the Next battle. If I was a strategist, still, I would tell my Democratic candidates to rage about this and be mad. It's cynical. I admit that it's cynical. So I understand why they're doing it. People are fucking pissed, and you want to demonstrate that you're fighting for them. I totally, totally get it. I think that when it comes to the actual votes, there's this question about whether the type of fighting you're doing is strategically smart, whether it's just fulfilling the emotional needs of your supporters. And I said this about the New Jersey and Virginia governor's races, where I was like, I love Abigail and Mikey. They're not fulfilling my emotional needs as a supporter of them right now, by the way in which they're fighting, but by the way they fought and they won, and they won by 13 and 14 and 15 points. So I just. I think it's important to have some perspective on that. Sometimes there is strategically smart fighting that is happening, and that is not just total food fight, temper tantrum, and do anything that you need possible to make people feel better. And I literally was texting with a friend this morning who replied to my tweet, texted me, and he was like, you're wrong. I'm mad. And I'm like, yeah, I get it. I get that you're mad. That's cool. I get it. I get it. Be mad. There's a lot to be fucking mad about. I'm mad. I just mean that, like, there was not a magical world in which they were fighting so hard that Mike Johnson would have said, you know what? The scales have fallen from my eyes. I want to extend the Obamacare subsidies for people. It was just not. That was not gonna happen, or he wouldn't have been the speaker anymore. So, anyway, I think that there's just. That just might be one way to. If you're mad. I hear you. I'm mad, too. I don't wanna. I'm not. I wanna validate your feelings. But there's just ways to be mad and strategic.

B (10:17)

And for all the people who are like, mad, man, it's not over. It's not over. Stay in the fight. Stay in the fight. It's gonna be a long fight. Especially if you're a young person. Like, you're mad you didn't get what you wanted right now, guess what? Things take a long time. Civil rights took a long time. Medicare took a long time.

A (10:31)

Right?

B (10:32)

This is gonna take a long time.

A (10:33)

There was one substantive argument on the other side. It's a mutual friend of Ours that I wanna grapple with. Jonathan Chait over at the Atlantic wrote that he agrees with our stated point here, that the Republicans were not actually gonna fold ever. If your definition of winning was Republicans folding on the substance of the policies, then you were never gonna get a win. But the Republicans may have folded on the filibuster. And I do kind of agree with it is possible if the Democrats kept the pain going long enough. If you got to a point where we are literally at Thanksgiving and Republican senators flights are getting canceled or not theirs actually, because, you know, elites get whatever they want, but that their family, that their grant, that their dad or their uncle or their cousin or their nephew or their kid wasn't able to get home for Thanksgiving, maybe some of the Republicans would have said, fuck it, we'll kill the filibuster and we'll just jam this through. And that would have been a long term win that might have happened. I don't, I don't know. I'm willing to say that that was a potential sacrifice. And I also think it's possible that some of these eight senators didn't want that because they liked the filibuster. And it would be legitimate to be mad at them about that if you're somebody that feels very strongly that you want the filibuster repealed. My other side of that coin to Chade is like, nobody actually cares about the filibuster except for these same very online people we're talking about. And if the Democrats want to just make D.C. a state with 51 votes, we've learned from the last year that they could just do that if they wanted to. I think kind of it's a silly fight at this point with how you've seen how Trump has behaved. But anyway, what do you make of the Chait critique here?

B (12:08)

I get to argue with Che and with you. I think to some extent it's weird. Like when I came to the Bulwark, I was supposed to be the lib. I'm like, I feel like I'm the conservative here. I like the institutions. I want to preserve the institutions. I especially want to preserve institutions that have any kind of check and balance. Obviously, they're the ones in the Constitution. The filibuster to me is another one of those institutions. And yes, Trump's whole argument for the last week has been nuke the filibuster. The Democrats will do it anyway, let's do it to them before they do it to us. And that is the whole race to the bottom mentality, right? I just want to argue against that. I just think if we, to get our country back, we need to restore some of these institutions and we need to lead by example. And so I don't want to give up the filibuster. I don't want to give up the redistricting fight. The Democrats are like, you know, everybody's like, the other side's doing it to us, we got to do it to them. And I understand the idea of retaliation, but the preemptive argument, like, oh, let's get them to abandon the filibuster, let's get them to abandon independent commissions doing redistricting. That kind of. I'm not with that. I'm against the race to the bottom.

A (13:10)

I mean, those aren't institutions for me. I'm with you as an institutionalist. And the filibuster has been abused to the hilt. I just, like, come on, give me a break at this point. Give me a break. I mean, the Republicans are passing everything by executive fiat right now. They don't wanna kill the filibuster. Cause Donald Trump is just doing shit. The President's just like literally bulldozing the White House. He's bombing people in the Caribbean. The idea that the filibuster was some check on anything. And if you went back to the original, if you wanna be a fucking institutionalist, a small C conserv me, I'm an OG on this fight. Make them stand up there and do it. I'm with you on that. Make them stand up there and filibuster. That's fine. Making it like a 60 vote threshold. Now, that is different. But we can argue about that another day. Where was I going to this weekend where I was wearing my perfect jean? I was so happy to be trying out the new perfect dad jean that I have. You know, it's, it's, as I've mentioned y' all before, it's my baby step away from, you know, the skinny jeans that are such a part of my gay identity. I can't do the big pants the kids are wearing, but the, you know, something a little bit, a little bit more on trend, that's also comfy, you can wear to a kid's soccer match, you know, when you're, when you're sort of owning your dad vibes. The new perfect gene I tried out is great for that. And there are a bunch of other options too. And you're probably looking for new jeans as well. As you deal with the family drama this fall, football brain melts. You want something with a Little extra space, a little extra coziness. After Thanksgiving dinner, enter the Perfect Gene. Their four way dynamic stretch means you can have seconds, thirds or even the whole pie without popping a button in front of the in laws. The Perfect Gene has six fits from skinny to their best selling athletic to thick thick. For the big boys out there. They serve the humble man with no tailor required. The huge range of sizes from 26 to 52 on the waist and from 26 to 38 in length. So short Kings, Wemby and everywhere in between they got you. Don't let stiff jeans ruin the holidays. Join the half million dudes who've uncrushed their nuts with the Perfect Gene. Head to ThePerfectGene NYC or Google the Perfect Gene. And for a limited time, listeners get 15% off their first order plus free shipping exchanges and returns. Just use code bulwark15 at checkout. That's 15% off your order with code bulwark15@theperfectgene NYC. Save today and stay perfect. I want to continue to pony talk among the ponies. The Republicans have no idea how to talk about this. I mean, for like one day they'll know how to talk about it. Process wise they'll be like, the Democrats are wimps. But on the actual policy matters that matter, they don't. You were watching Kevin Hassett, Trump's economic advisor over the weekend. There's a bunch done packed there, but there's one little clip that I like the best. Let's listen to it.

B (15:53)

Under the law, we're not allowed to spend money that hasn't been appropriated. And there is a law, Anti Deficiency act that says that if a government official spends money that isn't appropriated by Congress, which will only happen if the Democrats vote to open up the government, then you could even have criminal penalties. And so people are very carefully studying the law.

A (16:12)

Trump Cabinet secretaries could even face criminal penalties in the future. This is the biggest pony I have ever heard. Will Saletan, the Trump administration spokesperson, said that their cabinet members could could have criminal penalties facing them in the future. I agree with that. I agree with that. They could have criminal penalties facing them in the future. The law will still exist when they leave. Man, that just was one example. I mean, just broader like they are, I think, really flopping around in how to talk about how to deal with the shutdown itself, but also the policies around it. What'd you make of Kevin Hassett this weekend?

B (16:49)

So, Tim, can you refresh my memory? I could have sworn that when judges told the Trump administration that their deportations to Central America were illegal and that they could not send the planes, that they continued, the Trump administration continued to send the planes over there as long as they could argue. And even when they knew that the planes hadn't even left the ground, but the ones that were in the air, they certainly, they stretched as much as they could to get those deportations done against court orders.

A (17:19)

And Kevin Hassett says that Kristi Noem maybe could face criminal penalties for that in the future. And let me say, for the first time on this podcast, I agree with Kevin Hassett wholeheartedly. I think that's a great point that Kevin Hassett made. Kristi Noem could face criminal penalties for that. Anyway, he talked about a bunch of other stuff, like their health care plan and dealing with Trump. Trump is, like, all over the place on this. I was like, I was going to play the audio, but it's so long and it's rambling because they don't know. They don't have anything to say. This is the important thing to remember. They don't actually have anything to say about the substance of the health care concerns that people have because they don't know how to fix it. Right.

B (17:53)

But let me pause just for one second on this. What does this say about somebody's priorities? You know, there's the. There's the saying about can believe and must believe. If I want. If I want something, I find a reason why I can believe it. If I don't want to, I'm like, do I have to believe it? And I think the same is true here about the law obeying the law. We have an administration that stretches every legal definition to the point of defying court orders to do what it wanted to do, which was to deport every migrant to a freaking prison in Central America. When it came to snap, when it came to, like, feeding people, this administration went to court to argue exactly the opposite. They were given, Tim. They were given court orders that allowed them to fund the snap. And they're like, no, we're going to the Supreme Court. No, we're going to challenge this ruling. No, we're going to send a memo to the states to like, to get. Tell them that they. So they did exactly the opposite. So Hassett's, like, really deeply concerned that we could face criminal penalties when we are feeding people. So let's not feed people. But, like, deportations, they didn't care. So I just think this is one of those moments where you really see what people are made of, what they, what they Care about. And that was really disturbing to me, but I don't want to take away from it. You wanted to shift over to health care.

A (19:07)

Yeah. No, no, no, no. It's a good point. I'm glad you mentioned it. That's true. Especially now. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with that just because, like, the shutdown is over. They literally went. They used every extrajudicial tool in their belt to not give people food benefits that needed it. Poor people food benefits. It's important to remember. Yeah. So just on the healthcare, I mean, Hassett more broadly and these other guys. You're watching the shows, I guess I'm going to say the Republicans probably feel good today about the process arguments, but process, I don't want to get you so far in politics. Process arguments. But the policy argument that this is going to shift to, especially if there is a vote or even if they decide to. I think this is kind of stupid. The whole thing cycle. The Democrats gained a vote promise. They gained a vote promise out of the Senate, which, which doesn't matter if the House doesn't bring it out to a vote. But so even if they renege on that promise. Right. Like, still, eventually the, the topic becomes the actual policy. People are upset that their premiums are going up. Well, how would you, how would you judge how Republicans are talking about the, the way in which they're going to address that right now?

B (20:07)

Well, they're in total chaos. I mean, you know, so Trump's like tweeting this stuff about, like, we're going to give the money directly to the people, the people, instead of to the insurance companies, by the way. People, that's not how insurance works. Like, if you give the money to some people and you say, like, you know, you can buy whatever you want and like, you have to get people to chip into the larger enterprise. But the idea that Obamacare didn't solve the problem, this is going to be the Republican argument, by the way, in next month when that, when this is voted on. And it's going to be the argument going forward for the next year. Obamacare didn't work. So these subsidies are a bad idea. We're against these subsidies. We're not going to extend the subsidies. We're not going to extend the plus up. So the additional subsidies, nobody, no ordinary person is going to be like, okay, so health insurance is really hard to afford. And the Republicans are going to solve this by defunding the subsidies. Like, that just makes no sense at all.

A (21:00)

And Trump is out there. He's like, just look at his bleeds, if you want to know. He's flailing, talking about how the insurance companies are taking too much money, want to give money back to the people, but there's no actual policy behind that. It's just he's emoting himself. And none of the Republicans in the House or the Republicans in the House and the Senate, there are a handful of them left that do actually have some genuine ideological views and that it's that they don't want to provide more health care subsidies to poor people.

B (21:26)

Right.

A (21:26)

Like, that is. That is a view that John Thune and Mike Johnson and many, many other people in the Congress share. And so they're sort of in a pickle.

B (21:35)

Totally. And like, just for context, here you have this week on Sunday, we had Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary, and Kevin Hassett, the economic advisor. They're on to represent the administration. And they're asked, both of them, what the hell is this thing that Trump is bleeding about? Like, we're gonna give money directly to the people and defund the like. And neither one of them knows. Said they're like, is this the Republican position? Like, no. They both said, like, we don't know. Hassett is like, yeah, no one's really discussed this in the Republican caucus in the Senate or the House. Like, it's just. And he says Trump is. His word was brainstorming. I mean, Tim, I used to call this shitposting, but apparently now it's brainstorming for the President of the United States to throw out a completely unformed idea on social media that he hasn't consulted with his own party about.

A (22:26)

Here you go. Your health care is going up 400%. Your premiums are going up. Well, good news is the president's brainstorming about this on Truth Social. Like, we're working on it. We've got concepts to play. And I, I should say I wanted to do one, one boot to the Democrats who, who cut this deal after giving the positive defense of them. And that is similar to Kevin Hassett. They should not be on television. I watched Gene Shaheen and Angus King this morning, and like everything that a. At a rabid online resistance or leftist person believes about the Democratic establishment who is like, these guys are cowards. They are weak. They're not fighting for me. The senators that cut the deal are affirming that position. Every time that they open their mouth, I like, Angus King literally went on morning show and was like, we lost Donald Trump. Donald Trump beat us again. And it's just like, What? No, no. If you're going to cut the deal, then go on TV and be like, guys, we fought for you for 40 days and 40 nights and we demonstrated that we are going to lower your health care costs next year. And we gave Republicans every chance to come to the table. And you know what they said? They said, we like higher healthcare premiums for people, actually, and we want. And on top of that, we want poor people to starve. Okay? That's what they said. And so the best we can do now is say, good luck with that, guys. We'll take that argument to the midterms. And I look forward to majority leader. Okay, well, don't say the Chuck Schumer part. I look forward to a Democratic majority in the House and the Senate. There you go. That's a free talking point for all the Democrats that wanted to do the deal. So anyway, that's just a Tim rant. But if you have anything to if you have any defense of the Angus.

B (24:08)

King performance, it's a good rant. Not only is it a good rant, it is better than that. I mean, when the podcasters are making better arguments than the politicians, it tells you the politicians are probably in the wrong job, at least as speakers.

A (24:22)

Angus King is definitely in the wrong job, I'll tell you that much. One in five Americans has learned a new language on their bucket list. If that's you make this year, you finally check it off. Or get a head start on your New Year's resolution with Babbel, the language app that makes grammar fun and is actually worth your time. Learning language with Babbel is all about small steps, big wins and progress. You can track and feel. Their bite sized lessons fit easily into your daily routine and are easy to remember. Just 10 minutes a day is enough to start seeing real results. Babble lets you practice real life conversations step by step without the stress. You'll build the confidence to speak up when it matters, from ordering a coffee to chatting with friends abroad. As for me, I'm doing we're pretty good because the kiddo is still in second grade. But you know, want to keep track with her on the French, right? Like I don't want her to be able to talk behind my back. Don't want her to be able to do French behind my back, right? And so you know, if you're just looking for conversation skills and being able to keep up with a second grader on French Babel, I recommend however you learn best by listening, speaking, reading or writing. Babel adapts to your style and keeps you motivated with personalized learning plans, real time feedback and progress tracking. Here's a special limited time deal for our listeners right now. Get up to 55% off your Babel subscription at babel.com bulwark get up to 55% off at babbel.com bulwark spelled B-A-B-B-E-L.com bulwark rules and restrictions may apply. Okay, more ponies. I've got two more ponies. Then we'll get to bad news. Okay, guys. You know who else gets it besides me? Besides Will Salatin. Steve. Which should be a little bit concerning Tim Dillon. I'm not going to make you listen to Steve Dan's team. Tim Dillon, who's people heard me mention before, I'm a loyal listener to his podcast now because he's the best MAGA comedian, bro podcaster out there because he actually tells people he really thinks and when Republicans are fucking up, he says so. He also does some racist stuff on there and some far right stuff. So just trigger warning for anybody that wants to become a Tim Dillon fan. But he was out over the weekend talking about the state of play here and how bad down the Republicans are on their economic messaging and health care messaging. And I want to listen to it.

C (26:36)

The only one who seems to get it, as crazy as he might be, is Steve Bannon, who goes, no, no, no, we're in deep trouble. Bannon is talking about that and he's telling the people on his side of the aisle they're in real trouble because the pendulum is now swinging back to economic concerns. Republican Party's talking about shit no one, no, no, nobody cares about. And they're having. It's infighting, it's squabbling, it's all this stuff. And the Democrats are ascendant because, by the way, why not? No one's life is better since Trump took office, by the way. So at the end of the day, it's like, why not?

A (27:16)

You know what else would be a better message than what Angus King is saying out there? What Tim Dillon, the MAGA podcaster saying, literally going on TV and being like, nobody's life is better. Trump is having his truffle party down at Mar a Lago and bombing boats in the Caribbean and maybe we should focus on helping people. That's what the Democrats are up to. That's a pretty good message. It is.

B (27:35)

I gotta. All right, so first of all, the pendulum is swinging back to economic concerns. Go with me for a minute. What if it was always There. What if it's.

A (27:44)

What if it's not?

B (27:45)

What if the 20. Like Republicans thought the 20, 20, 24 election was this big mandate for this big agenda Trump's doing. You can see from the approval rating that that's not true. You can see from the election results last week that that's not true. It was negative. People were unhappy. There was a party in power, there was a party for change. They voted for the change. Okay. Some of the stuff that Republicans ran on, like they're surprised him that the trans stuff didn't cut so well for them in last week.

A (28:10)

Right.

B (28:11)

Like, what if. Go with me. Remember the ad that, that the Trump ran against Kamala Harris? She's for they. Them. We're for Trump's for you.

A (28:20)

Kamala, what if.

B (28:21)

Go with me for a minute. What if people didn't really care about the. They. Them. What if. That was the whole point. They weren't like, like some people, you know, some boy or in a girl's sport, blah, blah, blah. That was just. Wasn't a big deal. But they thought the Democratic Party was obsessed with that, which wasn't true, but they believed that. And what they cared about was pocketbook stuff. And what if what happened last week was Republicans are like talking about boys and girls, sports. And again, people are like, I don't care about that, care about my life. I feel like that's the simplest explanation for both elections. What do you think?

A (28:53)

Yeah, just on top of to the Tim Dillon's point, the one part that was better is people's lives aren't getting better. And I do think that was true about the last election, was that the main failing of the Harris campaign, the original sin, was the unwillingness, to borrow a phrase from Jake Tapper, was the unwillingness to distance from Biden because people didn't feel like their lives are getting better. Just fundamentally, again, whether that's fair or not, whether that's true or not. And so there was no message that was saying to people, hey, if you're unhappy with inflation, if you're unhappy with this, we're going to fix it. Here's how we're going to fix it. This guy over there is an insane person, he's not going to try. But that just didn't sink in. And there was an attempt at that, but it was hard to do when you were defending the status quo so much. And so now the status quo is them. They them, if you will. Right. And like they, they are, you know, Trump is out there being like, I'm not even going to talk about the affordability. We're going to go to Mar a Lago, but we're going to have an event on Friday that featured beef filet, truffle, daffo noir, pan seared scallops, and a trio of desserts, including Trump chocolate cake. That's what they're doing. And I think that Tim Dillon and Steve Bannon are onto something. Maybe, maybe they should focus on healthcare and pocketbook concerns. And maybe the Democrats, instead of fighting about whatever Senate procedure and the cloture vote, should also be talking about that. One man's idea. One last pony for me. The Supreme Court this morning rejects a call to overturn its decision legalizing same sex marriage nationwide. And the Kim Davis case that went to the Supreme Court, this was something. Again, I don't want to dishonor people's fear and anger because they're legitimate feelings and legitimate reasons to be scared about this administration. They're doing a lot of scary stuff. But I, as a gay person, I got asked about this a lot, and I said to people, I have a lot of concerns. I'm concerned for migrants. I'm concerned for trans folks. I'm concerned that he's going to ruin the economy. I'm going to turn that he's going to start bombing random people. I'm not concerned about the gay marriage case. I don't think they're going to change it. For a variety of reasons. Some on the left were like, well, what about the abortion case? And I was just like, they're different in various ways. And so I'm happy that I was not wrong to not focus my concerns on that. So there you go. That's another pony for people. Same sex marriage. They're not going to try to unmarry me.

B (31:20)

Yeah. So I'm with you on this. Let me take these in reverse order.

A (31:23)

Yeah, please.

B (31:23)

The same sex marriage thing just, again, I want people to consider the possibility of indifference that what's going on is indifference. So, like, there's not going to be a mass movement to roll back gay marriage. There's not going to be a mass movement to go forward on transgender stuff. There's going to be like, people are just like, look, focus on me and my life. That's a reason why you should feel a little bit more at ease about worrying about that. There's going to be a big push on the, all the sexual minority stuff, on the truffle party stuff. This is a big deal. Like, it's not cutting so much yet. But the more people Become unhappy with their own lot, the more things will stand out, like the Gatsby party and the truffles and all this stuff, and especially Tim, all that can go away. What's not going to go away is the massive Golden Ballroom.

A (32:08)

Right, right.

B (32:09)

And all that. Like, that. That imagery is. And I saw Adam Schiff was out talking about the golf and the ballroom, and like, Trump didn't care about anything else, but he built this monstrosity. And that is going to be this enduring symbol. It's certainly going to be a symbol in the midterms. It's going to be a symbol for longer than that of this party. The Republican Party that always was. Was portrayed as the party of the rich. Said it was like, under Trump, going to be the populist party, but never came up with in a decade a health care plan. And we'll just see an illustration of that in the coming months. And instead built this monstrosity of a ballroom. And it symbolizes that they were always about the billionaires all along.

A (32:45)

The ballroom thing, it's early. The data, though, is showing this. And I think I said this on next level maybe one time where I was like, I'm open to the possibility that maybe it's just I'm the outlier and not having strong feelings about this sort of stuff, that a lot of people really do have, you know, emotions tied up in this or that is a real symbol for people. And. And I don't know. I like that early data on it seems really bad, like, kind of shockingly bad to me. So. Great. I love that. Whatever. Whatever it takes. I'm a little bit more mad about the masked agents and all this other sort of stuff, but if, like, the people out there are going to be mad about the ballroom, great. Awesome. That's good. That's as good a thing as any to be mad about.

B (33:27)

You're a little bit of a gold squish, right? Like, you're.

A (33:29)

You're. You.

B (33:30)

You like gold squish.

A (33:31)

His design t aren't terrible for me. I mean, the Au Bon pan, the Rose Garden is a nightmare. And this. The Oval Office thing that is like, in Cheesecake Factory font on the outside of the Wise House is horrible. So. And I'm just, you know, anyway, I said after the last election, I was like, my promise to people was I was going to not do fake outrage. I was like, I would be mad about what I was mad about, and I'd be mad about what I think was actually hurting people. And in this case, I just. I just couldn't muster it. JVL was mustering all the outrage for everybody at the Bulwark. I just, I didn't need to carry any of it because he was carrying it all for us. But it turns out people are pissed so that's great man. We hit our first chill today, Nord. It's a real chill, not a fake southern cold like brrr. Like woo Brrrr. I gotta stay warm and I was looking in my fridge at the iced coffee it's been lasting into November and thinking I need something else. And so I was happy to turn to our sponsor today at Mud Water. Mud Water is a soothing yet energizing coffee alternative that helps keep you stay sharp and balanced through the busiest time of year. Made from a blend of chai, cacao and calming adaptogens like Lion's Mane, my favorite Reishi Chaga Mud Water gives you a natural boost without the crash or coffee jitters. Mud Water is your holiday self care ritual in a cup packed with antioxidants and wellness benefits that nourish your body while keeping you centered and clear headed throughout the chaos of the season. With Mud Water, each ingredient serves a purpose for a clean natural boost. They have smooth earthy flavors that they provide a delicious and natural source of energy. Their OG blend contains Cacao and Chai for a hint of caffeine and hot chocolate like flavor, Lion's Mane for focus, Cordyceps to promote natural energy and both Chaga and Reishi to support a healthy immune system. You know I've gone full woke when an ad I talk about Chaga and Reishi and self care and I can do so genuinely and passionately like I do for Mud Water. Using Mud Water is as easy as cozying up on a crisp fall afternoon. Head to mudwater.com and grab your starter kit for a limited time. Our listeners get 43% off your entire order, free shipping and a free rechargeable frother@mudwtr.com thebullwerk that's up to 43% off your order@mudwtr.com theBullWork after you purchase, they ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you this fall. Nourish your body and mind with Mud Water, a perfect addition to your self care routine as the weather cools and the days get shorter. All right, you ready to move on to bad news?

B (36:04)

Let's do it.

A (36:05)

We're going to end with the pony too. So everybody knows. So it's not just bad news. If you are not. We'll end it with a pony. The pardons. There's another round of pardons this morning. 77 people received full, completed, unconditional pardons, including Rudy Giuliani, Mark Meadows, Sidney Powell, Boris Epstein, and a slew of other people that were involved in the fake electors plot that we talked about with Carol Leonig last week. Jonah Goldberg over the Dispatch, I think posted this was a pretty insightful point. He said, this is an important signal to future allies. I think that's the scary, to me, that is the scarier part of this. These people don't deserve this. And it sucks that they're getting pardoned because they were complicit in a plot to end our democracy. But I think the even more ominous part is as Trump's political prospects get worse and as he starts to think about other shenanigans in the coming years, this is a signal to people that want to be a part of those shenanigans that he'll let them off the hook.

B (37:02)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we forget, of course, that Trump pardoned all of the people who committed violence on his behalf on January 6th.

A (37:08)

I don't. Yeah, we don't forget.

B (37:09)

Some of us don't forget. Some of us don't forget. But, like, I mean, I was shocked there wasn't more outrage. So at this point, he's pardoning the kingpins. It's like, Tim, this list of people he just pardoned is like if you went through the Jack Smith indictment on the fake electors case and he just licked literally everybody in there. Trump said a lot on the campaign trail last year. He was like, I got indicted more than the late, great Alphonse Capone. And Capone was a joke. But if Capone had been elected president, this is what he would have done. Just like, I'm going to pardon all of my accomplices. And you're totally right about the signal. Remember the two guys who worked at Mar A Lago who helped Trump with the COVID up, the classified documents thing? They didn't buckle. Well, the investigators tried to get them to turn on Trump. They wouldn't do it. I'm sure Trump promised them, look, stick with me and I'll bail you out. And he has. And that was a big signal. I think Jenna Ellis actually did plead guilty in Georgia. Right. So she already lost whatever protection she was going to get. But all these other people, if you don't turn against the crook, Capone, Trump, whoever it is, and he gets elected president. Yeah, he's got this pardon power and you're good to go. I guess the one pony. I got my little pony over my shoulder here. It's that these are only. He can only pardon for federal crimes. So the Georgia case, I think funny. Willis is out of it. Right. But the case can still go on. Could still go on.

A (38:29)

I don't have a for that. Do you? Yeah, yeah.

B (38:32)

I don't want to, like, get people up. But like, in Arizona, that case still technically exists against Giuliani and these other guys. But we're kind of left with am grateful we have Nancy Pelosi. I don't know if you wanted to get to her, but like Nancy Pelosi, among the great things she did, she's. She's going to be retiring. Among the things she did was she made sure that there was a brief moment in history when we had a January 6th committee that could tell us the truth, investigate and tell us the truth about what happened. And that turns out to be really important because since then, the crook and all of his accomplices have been elected, and there's a massive campaign to pardon them, to exonerate them, to rewrite history. So at least we have that report to remember the truth by.

A (39:10)

One other pardon thing is Jared Kushner. It's important to always just at least bring up how bad the corruption is in this family, because it might be the thing that ends up sticking over the course of the years ahead. A violent felon and either friend or friend of a friend of Jared Kushner, somehow in the Jared Kushner circle got a pardon on the very end of the Trump first term. His name was Jonathan Braun. Since then, he has sexually assaulted a nanny, swung an IV pole at a nurse, threatened a congregant in a synagogue, and made usurious loans to struggling small businesses. He will get his new sentence today. So this stuff has longer ripples, you know, than just the initial news cycle. I just felt like that was worth mentioning.

B (40:01)

Yeah, yeah. And this is a point that Trump and other people around him have made about criminals in general. Oh, don't let them out. Look, look, an illegal alien got out, and look what he did. And, like, that's bad, but that's literally knowing that that is a problem, that recidivism is a problem. They did this. They sent people, the January 6th people, Jonathan Braun. When the criminal is on their side, when they commit their crimes for Trump, the Trump people put them back out on the street. And this is what happens.

A (40:30)

Moving on to immigration. On the list of things that I had genuine Outrage about the four months that we sent folks to that hellhole in El Salvador. There's a New York Times article on this. Four months in an El Salvador prison I'd encourage everybody to read. It's brutal, though. It's a tough read. It's all the kind of stuff we were expecting. But it's interesting to kind of hear the stories. They interviewed 40 of the men that we sent there. They said they're shackled, beaten, shot with rubber bullets, and tear gassed until they passed out. They're sexually assaulted, they're driven to the edge of suicide. One of the folks that they're interviewed, he's a father of three. He had been working as an Uber Eats driver in Milwaukee before being detained and sent to the foreign prison. His low point came on the day of his oldest child's seventh birthday. He said this. We had heard that if there was a person who died among us, they would let us all go. He thought maybe he should be that person. He climbed on a bunk bed and tried to hang himself with a sheet. The other men pulled him down. So there you go.

B (41:33)

I don't want to go too far with drawing an analogy, but there are other countries in this world that have gone through periods when their nations, when their governments did evil. This is a period when our government has done evil. And this excellent story about what these. These atrocities that were done to people, that the United States government deliberately sent people into a prison where we knew this kind of thing had happened to other people and would happen to these people. It is a moment of shame we should never forget.

A (42:00)

With no due process and ethically racially profiling. I mean, just like these people got sent there just because they happen to be Venezuelan or they had the wrong tattoo or whatever. It's just unbelievably heinous and remains the most heinous thing on a long list of heinous things that we've seen so far from Trump 2.0. Obviously there's so much other stuff and I could, like, we could do a whole segment on various, like, immigration atrocities that we've seen. Every show there's a picture of the guy. It really struck me as sitting outside the detention center at Broadview, the ICE detention center in Chicago, Just kind of like with his head in his hands, his wife, I guess they were going through the legal process. They keep doing this fucking thing where people that are going through the process trying to do it the right way, show up to their court date, and then they get taken and disappeared. And there are A million of those stories. And because it was El Salvador, it made me think. I was reading this weekend the book that Peter Hamby had suggested on a podcast a couple weeks ago, Everyone who is Gone is Here. It's by Jonathan Blitzer. And it kind of starts at the original root cause of all. That's the Kamala Harris job, trying to solve the root cause of the silent crisis. It starts in, like, 1930 in El Salvador with the mass murders there, then kind of fast forwards up to the 70s in El Salvador. And I talk about this. The archbishop there, Oscar Romero, who. It's interesting. I wanted to bring this up to you today in part because we have this story from the Times about El Salvador, but also because, like, I was reading the book and then, like, that sent me down a Romero hive this weekend. So I was watching, like, a documentary about him, and I was like, okay, because he was very bulwarky. He's kind of very, well, Salatin. He was like a moderate consensus choice to be the archbishop there, right? Because, like, a lot of the establishment types in the government did not want one of the radical priests that was speaking out against the way in which the government was cracking down on unions and agrarian farmers and dissidents, et cetera. And then his. His friend, a Jesuit priest, gets killed, and then another friend, a Jesuit priest, gets imprisoned and electrocuted and gets treated the same way that now these guys were treated in the el Salvador prison 50 years later. And he slowly radicalizes, and he ends up. He's now a sainted Oscar Romero. I remember watching him, and it's just like sometimes our instinct, like moderation can be a vice, and Romero, like, lives up to the moment. At times, it made me kind of think about how I sort of reflect on that, about my instinct towards. Just as we were arguing earlier about moderation, these institutions. And it feels good sometimes to be the radical, but other times call for it. And I just wonder if over the course of the first year, as a stated institutionalist at the Bulwark, if you've thought about that at all.

B (44:48)

Well, it's a really interesting question about what radicalization means and what moderation means. Right. Like, you can be. There's moderate temperament, there's moderate positions. What I would personally argue for, and I'm willing to have this discussion with you or anyone else. I am not radical in my politics, but that doesn't mean you should just roll over when. When bad stuff happens, when. When your country commits or sanctions or is complicit in torture, you have to stand up. That is just wrong. Romero was. He was conservative in the sense that he was a Catholic, he was a Christian, and he stood for those principles and he stood for them against the government, and he stood for them against the left when the left was violent and was committed atrocities. Right.

A (45:31)

That's.

B (45:31)

You could call that moderate, but the radicalization that you're describing here is coming forward to speak out against evil. I'm not just going to hang out, you know, and not speak out about political matters because I'm a religious figure. I'm going to. I must speak out. So I am for the courage. I am for the standing up. It's a question of what you are standing up for. That kind of, in my mind, divides the institutionalist from the non institutionalist.

A (46:00)

That's true. It is true. Romero also did. They're like the vigilantes that were also killing and that he spoke out against. To me, it was interesting because it was about the tone. And it's something I do feel like we're missing now for the moderates. That's why maybe it was between the El Salvador story and watching Angus King this morning. I don't know. The Romero lesson was really hitting for me because it was like he went from being a moderate in the sense of his first speeches were about how sermons, not speeches, sermons are about kind of being opposed to radical solutions and the need for, you know, being cautious, judicious. I don't have the words in front of me. It was the radical difference in tone. Right. To your point, it was not necessarily, oh, I'm throwing in league with the vigilantes. We should start killing people. Right. But it was more of. No, actually, like, it is incumbent upon us, even if it is not our traditional role in these moments, to have moral clarity and to be unapologetic about it and to fight. And I don't know, I think that we're seeing a little bit of that now, but. But not enough. We kind of need more of our people that have moderate temperaments to. Not to. To. To dispense with the moderate tone, I guess, would be my lesson from it.

B (47:11)

Yeah, I can only speak for myself here. I mean, I've never done anything as brave as what Romero did my whole history. And, you know, and I. I have been a squish. I've been like a person who believes in practical. I'm like an Abigail Spanberger type of person in terms of my politics. But we are not living in normal times. We are living in times of evil. And as a moderate, Squish type person. I have to look at the reality the is the United States of America is in the middle of an authoritarian takeover. It is partial, it is incremental. It's on a spectrum of authoritarianism. But that is what it is. And it extends to the point of this torture that you were just talking about. And in moments like this, all of us have to stand together. The Mamdanis, the Spanbergers, the Sheryls. We've all got to be united against the evil. And you can say that's not our moderate position. I don't think I'm abandoning my political views when I say that I'm gonna join arms with the Mamdani wing of the Democratic Party against the Trump administration. That is just. I think that is a very practical thing to do.

A (48:18)

Concur. All right, final topic you wrote this morning. No one matters to Trump but Trump. And one of the examples about that is sort of talking about how after Tuesday's election, he's not reflecting on. On the ways in which Donald Trump could do things that would better support the Republican Party or the people that voted for him or anything. One example of that is how, apparently he's demanding that the commanders name their new stadium after him in Washington as part of the deal to get, you know, to get approval to move the stadium out of that godforsaken spot in Maryland into. Back into Washington, D.C. and then on the heels of Donald Trump wanting to get a stadium named after him, he went to the commander's football game this weekend, where I think he was expecting a huge, positive reception. And from the box there, he was giving to the whole stadium the oath of enlistment. And I'm not sure that many people could hear the oath because. Well, let's listen together.

B (49:17)

Please raise your right hand. I and state your name. Do solemnly swear.

A (49:35)

Not great. Doesn't seem like things are going great for Mr. Trump. It is a free country still, which is nice to see.

B (49:41)

So Trump lives in a bubble, obviously. He's, like, got his own people around. He got rid of anybody who told him the truth. And so he thinks that everybody loves him. I think, Tim, that he thought. And maybe the people around him, being sycophants, also thought, if I go to an NFL stadium, those are my people, right? Those, like the NASCAR thing, like, they think Biden's a jack. They love me. And he got like, you know, he didn't pay attention to the feedback he got in the election.

A (50:07)

Right.

B (50:08)

But here he is in the stadium, and he's being directly Booed. So there's no question this is about you, Donald Trump. I think this is a reality check. And sometimes, Tim, when I worry that we are Trump, that Americans are okay with Trump, it consoles me to see things like the election backlash and it consoles me to hear things like that. Forthright repudiation of him in an NFL stadium.

A (50:30)

I like Pete Hegseth's stern stab view behind him standing there trying to play the role of Secretary of War. Fake Secretary of War, the weekend co host. It's pretty good. It's pretty good. Maybe pick the wrong stadium. I don't know. You could have found a better stadium, but I don't think so. I'm trying to think what would be the most Trump friendly stadium? Jacksonville, maybe?

B (50:55)

It's a good question. Probably not a stadium that might be inhabited by lots of people whose relatives, whose loved ones have been fired or have been furloughed because of you. Maybe that would be a good move.

A (51:06)

Yeah, maybe the Titans. Maybe the Tennessee Titans. Their fans are so upset with what's on the field that they'll take Trump as an alternative. I don't know. Pretty bad. Pretty ugly. Enjoying the boos? It's a great pony. A booing pony for everybody. At the end of the show, the only podcast in America where you'll have a heated agreement about how the Democrats did the right thing on the shutdown. Will, thanks for settling in for Bill Crystal. We'll be talking to you soon. Thanks, Tim. All right, everybody else will be back for another edition of the podcast tomorrow. See you all then. Peace without even falling off Gotta be compatible Take me to my limits, girl when I break you out I promise that you won't wanna get Just once if I have the chain the things I would do to you, you and your garden. Every single portion. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.