The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Will Sommer
Release Date: March 11, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller welcomes Will Sommer, the Bulwark's newest senior reporter. Sommer brings extensive experience from the Washington Post, where he covered media, conspiracy theories, and related topics. He is also the author of Trust the Rise of QAnon and the former host of Fever Dreams at The Daily Beast. The conversation delves deep into the complexities of the MAGA movement, the interplay between Trump and influential figures, and the current state of political conspiracies in America.

MAGA Movement and Trump's Influence

Backstory and Evolution of the MAGA Movement

Will Sommer reflects on his early exposure to right-wing ideologies, mentioning his teenage years in Texas listening to figures like Bill O'Reilly, Ayn Rand, and Michael Savage. He highlights the disconnect between voter desires and political actions within the GOP, culminating in Trump's presidency, which he views as a response to deep-seated voter urges.

• Sommer: "I was like in 8th grade listening to Michael Savage and he was like, we just gotta nuke China... If this is what one of the main voices in the party wants, I feel like there's this disconnect between the voters and what the politicians are doing." [04:19]

Entrenchment in "Fever Swamps"

Sommer expresses concern over the MAGA movement's deep entrenchment in conspiracy theories and extremist ideologies, questioning the future trajectory of the party.

• Sommer: "The idea that we're at the point where Dan Bongino getting appointed to the FBI or Cash Patel even to head the FBI... raises questions about what's going to happen in two or three years from now." [02:57]

Key Figures in the MAGA-Verse

Dan Bongino and Cash Patel

The discussion shifts to key MAGA figures like Dan Bongino, a former talk radio host turned Deputy FBI Director, and Cash Patel, the current FBI Director. Sommer critiques Bongino's lack of prosecutorial experience and questions the appointment decisions within the Trump administration.

• Sommer: "Dan Bongino is a guy who's never been in the FBI and... now he's going to be the FBI Deputy Director." [44:35]

Sebastian Gorka

Sebastian Gorka, appointed as the counterterrorism chief, is another focal point. Despite his controversial past and confrontational demeanor, Sommer notes that Gorka has presented himself as a voice of reason amidst chaotic administration dynamics.

• Sommer: "Gorka has kind of presented himself as a voice of reason... still, it's disturbing." [50:42]

Elon Musk and the Trump Administration

Trump's Support for Elon Musk

The conversation touches on President Trump's recent announcement to purchase a Tesla, perceived as a gesture of support for Elon Musk amidst Musk's struggling businesses.

• Miller: "Elon's the one that's pretty obviously unraveling. I don't think it's easy to look at that interview and be like, this is a man that is losing his grips on things." [08:38]

Implications for MAGA Supporters

Miller and Sommer discuss the mixed reactions among MAGA supporters regarding Musk's actions and the potential fallout for Trump.

• Sommer: "It is striking... President being like, look, my buddy's company's in trouble. You got to go buy, buy, buy." [10:31]

Steak and Shake Rebranding Controversy

Anti-Woke Branding Efforts

Steak and Shake's attempt to rebrand as an anti-woke fast-food chain by switching to beef tallow for fries sparked backlash. Influencers scrutinized the move, leading to confusion and criticism over the actual implementation.

• Miller: "They said, well, we're going to start doing our fries only in beef tallow... Alex Clark said, well, actually no, it's pre-treated in seed oil." [19:14]

Public and Influencer Reactions

The rebranding effort led to debates within the MAGA community about authenticity and commitment to anti-woke principles.

• Sommer: "It's very like citizen journalists trying to figure it out." [19:27]

Pam Bondi and Conspiracy Theories

Seth Rich and Epstein Documents

Pam Bondi's handling of sensitive documents related to the Seth Rich and Jeffrey Epstein cases became a contentious issue. Sommer criticizes Bondi for selectively releasing previously available files and entertaining right-wing influencers who propagate unfounded conspiracy theories.

• Miller: "Pam Bondi was said to have sent these binders as a party favor for visiting the White House... everyone is like, we got evidence of the child trafficking," [27:00]

Impact on Administration's Credibility

The mishandling of these documents has undermined Bondi's credibility and exposed fractures within the administration's approach to handling conspiracies.

• Sommer: "She's being set up to take the fall for a lot of these conspiracy theories not coming true." [24:53]

Crypto, Grifting, and the 1789 Venture

Crypto Manipulation and Presidential Endorsement

Miller and Sommer discuss the Trump administration's involvement in the crypto space, highlighting concerns over potential manipulative practices and grifts involving Vice President Pence's venture, the 1789 Capital.

• Miller: "There's a little bit of this intra-MAGA divide... the greatest grift that's going out there." [53:44]
• Sommer: "They're trying to pump the bags... real heavy bag holders are getting frustrated." [56:15]

Venture Capital and Political Funding

The intertwining of venture capital with political agendas raises questions about the motives and integrity of funding within the MAGA-aligned businesses.

• Sommer: "These are people who have connections to the administration... donate to my VC fund." [53:44]

Administrative Outright Absurdities

Immature Leadership Decisions

The appointment of figures like Cash Patel, who allegedly meets with FBI unions to promise experienced deputies but instead selects inexperience-driven individuals like Dan Bongino, showcases the administration's flawed decision-making.

• Miller: "Cash Patel has requested a direct line... shows exactly what they're doing here." [48:07]
• Sommer: "This is the guy who's posting the letters... a total clown with no prosecutorial experience." [42:30]

Counterterrorism Chief Sebastian Gorka's Feud

Gorka's aggressive interactions, including public confrontations, demonstrate the volatile nature of the administration's high-level appointments.

• Miller: "He lashed out at me one time in the hallway of CPAC... stick your head in a bucket full of eels." [50:55]

Tribute to Kevin Drum

Honoring a Respected Blogger

In a heartfelt segment, Tim Miller pays tribute to Kevin Drum, a longtime liberal blogger who passed away. Drum is remembered for his fair-mindedness and commitment to truth, even in the face of internal conflicts at Mother Jones.

• Miller: "He was a great writer. He influenced a lot of writers that I like and he'll be missed." [59:33]

Closing Thoughts

Final Remarks and Future Reporting

Tim Miller wraps up the episode by highlighting the ongoing complexities within the Trump administration and the MAGA movement. He thanks Will Sommer for his insights and anticipates future episodes that will continue to unravel the intricate web of MAGA-related politics and conspiracies.

• Miller: "I am super looking forward to all the reporting on these weirdos and characters that you're going to do to educate us." [59:51]

Notable Quotes

1. Will Sommer on Disconnection within GOP:

   • "If this is what one of the main voices in the party wants... there's this disconnect between the voters and what the politicians are doing." [04:19]

2. Tim Miller on Pamela Bondi's Handling of Documents:

   • "Instead of a sort of a party favor for visiting the White House... we have Mike Cernovich and Jack Posobic... kind of like notorious pizzagate promoters." [28:40]

3. Will Sommer on Dan Bongino's Appointment:

   • "Dan Bongino is a guy who's never been in the FBI and... now he's going to be the FBI Deputy Director." [44:35]

4. Tim Miller on Sebastian Gorka:

   • "He's an unusual guy, the counterterrorism chief of America... Does he sound safe, listeners?" [50:57]

5. Will Sommer on Crypto Grifting:

   • "They're trying to pump the bags... real heavy bag holders are getting frustrated." [56:15]

Conclusion

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the current state of the MAGA-Verse, highlighting key figures, internal conflicts, and the broader implications for American politics. Will Sommer provides a nuanced perspective on the intertwining of conspiracy theories, political appointments, and the manipulative tactics within the Trump administration. Listeners gain valuable insights into the challenges facing liberal democracy amidst the ever-evolving landscape of political extremism.

Note: Advertisements and non-content segments were excluded from this summary to focus on the core discussion between Tim Miller and Will Sommer.