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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Conspiracy Theorists Are Behind the Wheel in the Republican Party
01:03:30
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- [00:00]
Will Sommer
This is Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers.
- [00:02]
Tim Miller
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- [02:07]
Will Sommer
Hey, happy to be here.
- [02:08]
Tim Miller
It's good to have you. It is perfect. I've been wanting to just sort of do a deep dive on all of the Real Housewives of Maga infighting with you. And we kind of penciled you in for today a while ago and little did I know that it would be the day after the historic Candace Owens Erica Kirk summit. So I feel very good about that. We're going to get to it in a second. First, it is for people who maybe aren't. And they should be following the False Flag newsletter as closely as they should be. Since you've joined the bulwark, I want to read just a couple of the stories you've done for us this year. You reported on how the Blaze, Glenn Beck's outfit, identified the wrong pipe bomber from January 6th, and they identified the wrong person based on a gait analysis. G A I t like a horse's gait. And it seems like they're about to be sued. You've reported on a MAGA influencer who has healing centers where people sit in front of big screen televisions and supposedly that heals them. You went to a center. You have reported on a right wing meme account accounts allegedly taking money from India, including defiant Ls. You report on Laura Loomer accusing Marjorie Taylor Greene of having Arby's in her pants. The aforementioned fingering incident in the lobby of Turning Point USA conference. Mike Lindell, pillow man, texted you from the courtroom. I think the people are probably wondering like, how does, how do you get all this? What is, how does this come to you? What is your consumption? We see your output. What is your input that leads to this?
- [03:37]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I'm consuming this stuff pretty much constantly, obviously very online on places like Twitter. You know, when the family goes to bed, that's when I hit the videos. When I'm cooking, you know, pancakes for the morning, I say, okay, it's Candace Owens time. And I fire it up. And so, you know, I, I have a true passion for the Dr. And so when someone says, here's a video of a guy getting punched out, I go, oh boy. And then I dive in.
- [04:01]
Tim Miller
So you bring a joie de vivre to the job I do. It's not a burden for you.
- [04:05]
Will Sommer
You know, you have to. I would pay to do is such a pleasure. There are so many absolute lunatics in this field and they love betraying each other and talking to reporters. So it's a lot of fun.
- [04:16]
Tim Miller
It's interesting. There's the old phrase that gets brought up a lot during the Trump era about you have to be careful when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back into you. That doesn' seem like a problem for you. You seem to be have like a detached separation from these people in a way that I kind of admire but also wonder how like I, I also like you enjoy laughing at them from time to time. But I find myself consumed with rage at times. I find myself, you know, wanting to use their tactics back against them. These temptations don't seem to afflict you. Why? Why is that? Talk to us about your inner self, you know.
- [04:55]
Will Sommer
Well, you have no idea what kind of dark, twisted stuff I'm getting up to privately. No, I mean, you know, it's. I think often, you know, and there are certain people, you know, who I cover, who have sort of a sense of humor about it. And so, you know, they're personally nice. Even if they're, I think, up to awful things for the country and other people, some of them are not. And they're, they're rude and unpleasant people. And I think, you know, seriously, you know, bad guys. But on the other hand, you know, at least we can take solace in the fact that I think for a lot of these right wing media personalities, you know, karma does catch up to them. I mean, I think about you, you know, people who are just really awful people and then they'll get indicted. You know, the We Build the Wall guy was running a grift, you know, or they'll turn out in some cases to be a pedophile or, you know, texting underage boys or something. And so, you know, often there is sort of a recompense waiting.
- [05:42]
Tim Miller
You've been doing this now for, God, who knows, like a decade, maybe more.
- [05:46]
Will Sommer
Yeah, a decade now.
- [05:47]
Tim Miller
Yeah. The Daily Beast, you had the Fever Dreams podcast. We've been blessed to have you with us for the last year or so. I'm just wondering, like, that trajectory and this is going to take us into Candace and Erica, but how do you assess where we're at now versus 2015? Do you feel like the fever swamps have gotten hotter? Do you sense any cracking? Just biggest picture?
- [06:13]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I think the world of right wing media influencers, social media figures, has gotten a lot bigger. I think they've gotten more influential. If you had said to me a decade ago or whenever seven years ago, Laura Loomer chained herself up to Twitter headquarters, and if you had said, by the way, in a few years she'll be getting people fired from the presidential administration or able to block refugees from visiting America, stuff like this, I would have said no, that lady, she's nuts. And she still is, but now she has all this influence, or I think the audiences have gotten bigger. And I think so much of the right now is really being controlled and influenced by these personalities. I look at Fox News and obviously they have a huge audience, but I don't think those people are really deciding what the direction of the party is, what the future is going to look.
- [06:59]
Tim Miller
Like, what was the Laura Looma refugee story? I missed that. Oh, yeah, she blocked.
- [07:04]
Will Sommer
So crazy. So it was Palestinians who had been injured during the war and had legs blown off, including a lot of children, and they were visiting the US Temporarily to get medical aid. And basically she said, oh, my gosh, like, look at all these, these Muslims coming into the country. This issue did not exist as a talking point on the right. No one cared. You know, no one knew this was happening. And then within 48 hours, the state Department said, okay, don't worry, we blocked any Palestinians from coming to receive medical aid.
- [07:28]
Tim Miller
That is an interesting transition to Candace, because there is this horseshoe that people talk about, and sometimes I feel like we throw that word around and not all listeners understand what we're talking about. But essentially there's this horseshoe theory that the far right and the far left end up intersecting at a point and overlapping. And you see, Tulsi Gabbard is a good example of this. She was like a left wing populist who ends up now in Trump's administration, you see, And I talked about this in the last couple of weeks with Chris Hayes and Tommy Vitor. You see, you know, sometimes folks who are, you know, on the left and are critical of Biden, maybe legitimately critical of Biden for, you know, the policy of our administration in the Middle east and upset at the Democratic establishment and upset at aipac, and they find themselves online receiving Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson content, and they hear them talking quite passionately about how bad Israel is, and they start to get, like, kind of drawn in. It's interesting, you know, and that this is one of the lines, right? Like, I think that some of those people who were drawn to Trump because they felt like he was the anti war candidate or because they maybe sensed an anti Semitic streak that they liked or whatever, that he didn't seem like he was part of the military establishment. They liked him, and now they get him. And Trump is in there. And what Trump is doing is banning injured Palestinian citizens from being able to come to America to seek medical care, to seek asylum. I mean, it's. It's insane. But that shows you kind of the limits of that little horseshoe coalition, I think.
- [09:07]
Will Sommer
Yeah. And I mean, I think that's a lot of the strife that we're seeing right now in MAGA is this disappointment from what they're really billing themselves as sort of the America first wing. And a lot of these people don't trust one another, and then they're kind of disparate ideologically. But whether It's Marjorie Taylor Greene or Nick Fuentes or Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson. You have these figures who kind of thought they were getting a new Republican Party out of Trump. And in a lot of ways is. It's sort of the same old, at least in terms of foreign policy.
- [09:35]
Tim Miller
Yeah, you're getting the Muslim ban. Trump, you know, he wasn't exactly subtle about this, Right?
- [09:40]
Will Sommer
Exactly. Well, I guess the one difference is he's willing now to take graft from Qatar. So he's willing to also take bribes from Muslim countries.
- [09:48]
Tim Miller
Yeah, that's a good point. There's some great news this morning. My old boss, Susie Wiles, she wasn't my boss for long, but for people who don't know, she was the campaign manager, the first campaign manager for Jon Huntsman's presidential campaign in 2012. That was the campaign I was the spokesman for. He was the most moderate candidate in the race. We hated Trump. We're very nasty to Trump, very nasty to Mitt Romney. When he went to get Trump's endorsement, Susie ended up having kind of like an emotional break during that campaign and left. So I never quite understood how somebody that could not handle the high pressure of the Jon Huntsman campaign could succeed in Trump world. But here we are. She's in Vanity Fair. Maybe she won't survive. She has a very lengthy interview, or not one interview, I think 11 interviews with Vanity Fair. The details are out this morning. Among other things, she says that Trump has an alcoholics personality. J.D. vance has been a conspiracy theorist for a decade and his conversion to Trump was, quote, sort of political because he was running for Senate. She said Elon Musk is an avowed ketamine user. That was the one thing she said she's denied this morning, but it's on tape. She also said he's an odd, odd duck whose actions were not always rational and left her aghast. She said Russell Vote, the budget director, is a right wing, absolute zealot and that Bondi completely whiffed on handling the Epstein files. I feel like anytime a Trump person kind of speaks honestly about the administration, they sound like me, which makes me feel good. Those quotes could have been right here on this podcast. But do we have any sense at this point for how it's being received?
- [11:30]
Will Sommer
Yeah. I mean, so right now, looking out at maga, as far as you said, it's been a few hours, I think people are kind of trying to figure out how to react. I mean, there has been this sort of. Among the people I cover, there's been this Kind of simmering resentment at Susie Wiles, this feeling that, you know, she's this gatekeeper who won't let them truly run amok in the way they want. And so periodically you get these kind of thinly sourced stories that are saying, you know, Susie's the one who, you know, won't let us do really ramp up deportations or something like that. I don't think that's necessarily true, but I suspect that they'll be happy. You know, this interview sort of suggests that she's on her way out.
- [12:04]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Susie says in the interview, you know, basically that she hasn't had any big fights with Trump. So she's had a lot of little fights over little things. So I, you know, and she essentially says, like, she's not gatekeeping. I mean, she might be gatekeeping, you know, whatever, like, random pet issue that, you know, people in the Maga swamp want to push onto Trump, but, like, on all the big ticket items. And she. She says bluntly that she doesn't. She's not pushing back. One other thing for the story, we're going to go deep into the next level pod on Susie, but one thing that's, I think, particularly relevant for your beat, I just wanted to flag is she was asked during one of these interviews about Gillian Maxwell's transfer to a less restrictive facility is what the Vanity Fair is calling it. Kindly. Weil says this. At first she said the President was ticked. It happened, he was ticked off. She adds, the president was mighty unhappy. I don't know why they moved her. Neither does the president. And then she followed up and said, if that's an important point, I can find out. The reporter followed up several more times, and Weil said she's still not found out. So magical, a mystery tour. In the course of the interview, also talking about Epstein, she basically acknowledges that there's this new part of the coalition, the kind of conspiracy theorists. And she's like, JD Is kind of the point person for this. She doesn't say that exactly. She's kind of implying that. And it's like they care a lot about it. Epstein in Gaza. And like, we got to figure out how to. How to message to them. I don't think that's going to assuage any concerns that they just. They just can't figure it out. I don't know. Who knows? It's a mystery how that happened.
- [13:43]
Will Sommer
Well, that's a funny one, because it's almost like they're suggesting, you know, this Epstein network goes deeper than we could ever imagine. You know, they're in the Bureau of Prisons. They got Ghislaine, this cozy transfer, coincidentally after this interview with Todd Blanche where she exonerated Trump, which I'm sure had nothing to do with it. The Ghislaine thing, I'm so glad you're focusing on this. Every time we talk about Epstein, and there's gonna be more Epstein news later this week when the files are supposed to be released. We'll see if they are. It's just crazy how relatively rarely Ghislaine comes up because that is such a smoking gun that there was some kind of quid pro quo. She's sent to the nicest possible prison. There's no explanation for it. And now, you know, I mean, obviously Susie Wiles, I think, detects that this is a problem because she's, you know. Oh, I don't know. You know, I mean, they'll fire people in this administration at a drop of a hat. And yet the Bureau of Prisons apparently operates autonomously, you know, doesn't have to answer the President for anything like, how.
- [14:33]
Tim Miller
Can you not find out? Like, what is there to. Like, how hard could it be? You know, she was in one prison, she's in the other prison. Ask the person that transferred there, why did they do that? Who told them to do it? It doesn't seem like this would be very challenging to figure out.
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Will Sommer
She says, well, if it matters, I guess I could look into it for you. Well, yeah, I would say one of the most notorious criminals in the country. Yeah, I would say it matters.
- [14:54]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Going to the Club Fed, it sure doesn't leave you feeling comfortable that there's not a cover up afoot if they can't. They can't come up with a clear answer to this. So we'll keep monitoring that. There'll be much more Epstein this week. Right? Guys, I got good news. If you've been listening closely to my ad reads, last couple of weeks, I've purchased some Christmas presents. I have, all right, not all of them. Got some more work to do. Need to find some stocking stuffers. Just as I'm talking about this right now, I realize that I haven't got anything for either of my godsons, but I'm working on it. And I don't know that the aura frame is going to be perfect for either of my godsons, but if you have a grown up that you need a last second gift for aura frames, just do it. Just do it right now. The aura frame is a perfect gift for a colleague. You know, you can Send them a frame with pictures, funny little pictures from the workspace. It's a perfect gift for an old buddy, an old college friend. One of my besties from college, I decided to get a gift for this year. We haven't got each other gifts in a long time, but sometimes it's nice. Just tell somebody you're thinking about them. Gather up some old pictures of yourself from when you were younger. Send it to them. Be something they can put up on their little desk. That's fun. The prime person to send an aura frame to, obviously is a grandmother or a great aunt. Somebody who doesn't get to see the grandkids. And you can send them all the latest pictures that are just backed up on your phone. It's the right answer for last second shoppers. Just a couple other things. With the Aura frame, you can upload unlimited photos and video. You can preload the photos before it ships. So when they open up the package, it's already, you know, it's already bringing them the joy of seeing your smiling face. You can personalize the gift. You can add additional photos and videos effortlessly throughout the year. I got a gift box included. If you are like me and don't know how to rap. And so for a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 bucks off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames named number one by wirecutter by using promo code Bulwark at checkout. That's auraframes.com promo code bulwark. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. All right, back to the main show, the Candace thing. So I'm trying to figure out about the right way to set the stage for this. Why don't we just start here? She meets with Charlie Kirk's widow, Erica Kirk, yesterday for four and a half hours. And after the meeting, she does not have the usual live stream that she does. Instead, she puts out this video. Let's listen. Four and a half hours later.
- [17:38]
Katie Miller
I'm alive. I'm alive.
- [17:40]
Tim Miller
I'm totally fine.
- [17:41]
Katie Miller
And I am sorry. I was gonna do a show for you guys this evening, but I am truly exhausted. Very productive conversation. I asked every single question. I mean, from Egyptian Planes to Turning Point USA Faith. And I was very surprised by some of the answers that I got. And I think they were also very surprised when I shared certain intel. This probably should have happened a Very long time ago. But I wanted to let you guys know that I am alive.
- [18:07]
Tim Miller
She's alive. Candace is alive. People were worried about that, that she might be killed at the meeting.
- [18:14]
Will Sommer
Yes, this was a big issue. So there's been about two weeks of discussions about how exactly Candace would meet with Turning Point. She said one ground rule, no assassinations, which I'm sure they were happy to agree with. But she and her fans, I mean, she had claimed there was a hit team from France and Israel out to get her. And so her fans were really like, oh my gosh, where's our Candace update? They posted Instagram videos and TikToks of themselves, you know, pacing the house. Where is Candace? And so, yeah, I mean, she had a lot of people convinced that, you know, this was going to be some kind of the French Legion was going to be waiting to snipe her or something like that.
- [18:49]
Tim Miller
So let's just back it all the way up. I want to get into kind of like why this matters for folks who have been blissfully unaware. Like, let's, let's just take the lens all the way back. What is the backstory here? Why is Candace afraid she might be assassinated like Charlie Kirk? Why did she have to have a beer summit? Well, not beer. I don't think they drink, but whatever. Why'd they have to have a sparkling juice summit between Candace and Erica Kirk? Can you just kind of walk people through the basics?
- [19:19]
Will Sommer
Sure. So, I mean, Candace Owens worked for Turning Point usa. She was very close with Charlie Kirk years ago. She left in, I think, roughly 20. 20, 2019 over some ardently pro Hitler remarks. I would say she said, Hitler wasn't so bad if he had just stayed in his. And so then there was kind of a distance there. She sort of went off into the right wing media cut to the Charlie Kirk assassination. She has built this huge YouTube profile of her own. And then after the assassination, she basically says, you know, I'm going to get to the bottom of what really happened. I don't believe the story that Tyler Robinson did it or the FBI's official narrative. And so for three months now, she's been spinning these conspiracy theories that increasingly were implicating Turning Point usa, suggesting that specific people on Charlie's staff had betrayed. And I think we're also suggesting that Erica Kirk was involved. You know, she, she kind of does a lot of insinuations, but basically that there was this grand plot and that everyone around Charlie Kirk was involved. And it was starting to, I think, damage Turning Point's brand. Everyone was saying, you know, certainly online, whenever they would post kind of some milquetoast turning point thing about how great Trump is, people would say, you know, hey, you, you murdered Charlie Kirk. So, you know, it was becoming a real problem for them.
- [20:31]
Tim Miller
She does do a lot of the insinuations. I did a video over the weekend on kind of Tucker and Theo Vaughn's interview where they were discussing Candace and where they're like being very just absurdly open to the notion that she might have some points. And you go back and watch Candace's videos and it's a lot of like, I'm not saying a Jew jumped out of the trapdoor beneath Charlie, but here's a close up picture of a trap door that was, you know, behind Charlie, right? Like she does a lot of that, a lot of mentioning of foreign potential influence. You know, the cell phones there, a lot of foreign cell phone numbers and the French Legion was on the ground. And, and, and she, she does a lot of this, you know, kind of conspiratorial stuff. And, and I think that like the main fissure, right, like obviously there's like the interpersonal Real Housewives part of this, like Candace is mad and so, and so Erica's mad, you know, whatever. But like the main fissure here really is related to Israel. Like Candace, like since the assassination has done a lot of stuff like where she like leaked text messages where Charlie would said to her, allegedly, I don't even. Who knows if these text messages are even true. Like said to her that like he was starting to get annoyed with the donor class. It was like forcing him to do something about Israel or get annoyed with the donors who are complaining that he's having Tucker Carlson speak at his events. And there's a lot of kind of like stuff papered over. But it does kind of come down to, I think that there's like a suspicion that Erica Kirk is more on like a traditional Judeo Christian, we should be aligned with Israel side of the Maga movement. And Candace is more on the side of this like America first conspiratorial nationalists, we got to separate from Israel, et cetera. Like, there's a lot of other stuff that's getting thrown out there, but that seems like the main breaking point. Does that. Is that fair to you?
- [22:26]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I think that's right on. I mean, Candace Owens is extremely anti Semitic. She has a history. I mean, you know, I mentioned the Hitler stuff. I mean she has a history of, you know, she's talked about Jews drinking, children's blood done blood libel stuff. She's very critical of Israel and American support to Israel, but it goes way beyond that as well. And I think you're right. That's the kind of the key fault line. This conspiracy theory, I think really got going a week or two after Charlie Kirk's death when she started saying, well, you know, the donors, the pro Israel donors to Turning Point were getting really mad at him. Charlie was about to flip and become more critical of Israel. And I mean, a lot of those text messages were authenticated by Turning Point. They said yes. You know, he was saying, essentially these Jewish donors are. They're alienating people. I'm getting fed up with them because they're so demanding. They demand this kind of total fealty to Israel and support. They don't want any criticism. And so I think that that really got a lot of it going. And so that is sort of the fault line there.
- [23:19]
Tim Miller
Just kind of like setting the table about like the influence and how important this is. And even this morning, like I was, as I was preparing for this on social media, kind of looking at the reactions to Candace, I see a couple of, like, more like mainstream Fox type Republican influencers. You know, basically saying that Candace has zero real life influencer presence outside of social media. Like, this is not important. One of them says, all my IRL friends are normies. Most have no idea who she is. And, and I, I do think that's just wrong. Like, I think that, like, Candace has 6 million YouTube subscribers. Like, the word normie, like, is interchangeable. Sometimes people say normie. They mean people who have normal views, like mainstream views. And sometimes they say normie and they mean average person. And like, if your person is a normie in the sense that they are college educated, they read the New York Times or Wall Street Journal, depending on which party they're in, they are probably not big cannabis consumers. Right. But if you are younger, if you are a normie in the sense you're a regular person that doesn't read like news articles really, but get your news from TikTok or Instagram Reels. Candace is huge again, has a massive, massive reach in that world. That's always my assessment. How do you, like, judge, like, what matters and the extent of her influence?
- [24:37]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think she's really, really popular outside of not just kind of like hardcore online politics people. But I mean, you know, she got really into like celebrity gossip, the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni lawsuit. So I think she's expanded her audience beyond sort of a typical Talk radio, Ben Shapiro world. And, you know, look, I mean, you look at her metrics on YouTube, which I'm not saying are, you know, down to the view count accurate, but each video she's hitting 2, 3, 4 million views. She's all over TikTok, Instagram. And, you know, I mentioned these videos of people saying, you know, is Candace going to make it out alive? These do not seem to be, like, lunatics. You know, they are people who are living in their homes. They, they, they seem like otherwise regular people who might be watching the Bachelor or something like that. And then they're, they're also tuning in like a soap opera to this kind of Candace Owen versus Erica Kirk thing. So I think she's very influential. I mean, when I talk to, you know, regular people, I mean, people know who Candace Owens is. As you said, she's huge on TikTok. Among other things.
- [25:31]
Tim Miller
I was describing her this weekend as like, having a psychotic break over this, and I feel less confident about that assessment now. I think maybe I was a little bit, you know, rash with my language, because there does feel like a very reality TV ification of this, like, getting caught up in kind of liking the drama and wanting to create new drama. And so it kind of doesn't really matter, like, honestly, like, what her motivations are, but, like, she's, she's super skilled at, like, continuing to get attention from people outside of, like, the traditional political news, I think. And that's, that's important. It's meaningful. That's how Donald Trump got power.
- [26:09]
Will Sommer
Yeah. I mean, I think people keep tuning in because it's, there's this drama. And I mean, I, I think it was savvy of her. She's played this thing with Erica Kirk very well, I think. You know, I felt like she was kind of running out of steam. The conspiracy material, if you, if you actually listen to the show. And, you know, I would not recommend people listen to it as intensely as I do, but, you know, you'll, you'll kind of tune out. It's like, wait, it's about Iran Contra now, How did this get involved? You know, she doesn't do a great job of explaining it, but Turning Point, I think they made this decision about two weeks ago. Okay. You know, they were kind of like, saying some of her stuff was accurate, some of her text messages, and I think trying to mollify her. And then there was this sense of, okay, enough's enough. We have this big conference coming up, America Fest, at the end of this week. Let's Close the book here. And so they sort of issued a challenge. They said, meet us in person in Phoenix and we're going to have a showdown over Charlie Kirk conspiracy theories. And she said no. And I think, you know, it kind of seemed like she was wimping out, but somehow she managed to broker this sort of in person private meeting with Erica Kirk. So I think ultimately she, at least from this round, has sort of emerged the victor.
- [27:10]
Tim Miller
Okay, it's kind of embarrassing how bad I am at budgeting.
- [27:13]
Katie Miller
Let me see your charges.
- [27:15]
Will Sommer
Fine.
- [27:15]
Katie Miller
You spent over $600 on takeout last month.
- [27:18]
Tim Miller
I can't cook.
- [27:19]
Will Sommer
You know this.
- [27:20]
Katie Miller
Yes, I have had your disgusting food, but you're literally paying for a meal subscription on top of that.
- [27:25]
Will Sommer
Whoa, wait, wait, wait.
- [27:27]
Tim Miller
That can't be right.
- [27:28]
Katie Miller
Look, just get Rocket Money. It shows you all of your expenses in one place and even tracks your subscriptions. And if there's a subscription you don't want, which for you there are a lot you don't need, you can just cancel right in the app with a few taps.
- [27:41]
Will Sommer
So you mean I don't have to call anyone to cancel?
- [27:43]
Katie Miller
No, nope. No hold times or anything. And they'll even try to get you a refund on some of the months of wasted money, which is a lot of money for you.
- [27:51]
Tim Miller
Okay, okay.
- [27:52]
Katie Miller
And if you thought I was done, I'm not. The app can also help you make a budget that works for your income. Anytime you get close to your spending limits, it alerts you so you know exactly where your money is going at all times.
- [28:03]
Will Sommer
Alright, Emin, what do I have to do?
- [28:05]
Katie Miller
Go to RocketMoney.com cancel or download the app from the Apple or Google Play stores.
- [28:10]
Tim Miller
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
- [28:12]
Will Sommer
Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
- [28:16]
Katie Miller
Could you be more specific?
- [28:17]
Will Sommer
When it's cravinient. Okay, Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at am, pm. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM.
- [28:26]
Tim Miller
I'm seeing a pattern here.
- [28:28]
Will Sommer
Well, yeah, we're talking about what I.
- [28:29]
Katie Miller
Crave, which is anything from AM pm.
- [28:31]
Will Sommer
What more could you want? Stop by AM PM where the snacks.
- [28:34]
Tim Miller
And drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient.
- [28:37]
Will Sommer
That's cravenience ampm.
- [28:39]
Tim Miller
Too much Good stuff you wrote. Your last newsletter was like this, titled what to do about the Candace problem. It seems to me like just basically that you've got kind of Candace and Tucker and unclear, like kind of who else like on one side of this. And then you have like more traditional type Fox Republicans and like Ted Cruz, Ben Shapiro, those types on the other side. And then you've got some folks kind of like trying to straddle the fence. Is that right? Or how would you kind of explain the battle lines?
- [29:17]
Will Sommer
Yeah, that's right. I mean, I think on one hand you have people who are really. And again, I think a lot of it comes back to Israel. You have people who are really sort of staunchly pro Israel, often Jewish themselves. So people like Mark Levin, Ben Shapiro and they are ardent Candace haters. Then you have people who I think are less tied to Israel as an issue and are maybe willing to sort of brook a little, you know, maybe hosted anti Semite on their show, like in the case of Tucker Carlson with Nick Fuentes. So let's say like we have like kind of like Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson there. And then you have this sort of insurgent and often, you know, racist or anti semitic group people like Nick Fuentes, although he's clashed a lot with Candace Owens himself. Candace and these kind of like lesser figures like Ian Carroll who's another conspiracy theorist. And so there's this challenge that I think people like Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly face where they want to be kind of cool and with it. And you know, Tucker certainly has his own kind of pet anti establishment issues, like being critical of Israel, praising Qatar.
- [30:14]
Tim Miller
I would maybe separate Tucker and Megan from this because I mean, Tucker is Tucker's brother. Seems like even crazier than Candace Buckley who's posting a lot.
- [30:23]
Will Sommer
I think that's accurate.
- [30:23]
Tim Miller
And then if you believe, well, it's in the Olivia Nutzi book in Ryan Lizzo, like in private Tucker was telling them that Israel is part of the plot. You know, that is, that is either supporting RFK or trying to stop rfk. It was kind of unclear, but he was, he was very clear that Israel was involved in the nutsy RFK plot. And that was like in private convo. So I don't know, it seems like he might be more on the legit side.
- [30:47]
Will Sommer
I think you're accurate. That's right. I think in this case I'm trying to just say that these are people who, and I think it's an exact. But Megyn Kelly and Tucker, I think both, they want to kind of straddle this world and she wants, Megyn Kelly wants to have ties to this younger crowd like Tucker, but they also want to maintain ties to this sort of establishment, establishment TPUSA world. And they're being pulled because TPUSA is basically saying, look, you got to stop saying that Charlie Kirk's staff murdered him.
- [31:11]
Tim Miller
Here's the key person that is straddling the line. The Vice President of the United States, the chief of staff, as I mentioned, said he's a conspiracy theorist, has been for 10 years. In the interview with Vanity Fair, there was an article in the Atlantic yesterday that quoted me and other people talking about just kind of this generational divide on the issue of Israel where there's like some legit elements to that and there's also generational divide on anti Semitism. Right. Like both things are happening where it's kind of increasing anti Semitism issues among the youth. And JD quoted that article saying it was wrong. And basically the only issue with antisemitism is that we're importing too many people with ethnic grievances. Everything's about immigration for jd and then this influencer, Sarah Stock, I'm going to ask you to explain just in a second. Replies to jd Right wing influencer. Actually white conservative Gen Z don't like Israel anymore either. Jd, JD replies, I would say there's a difference between not liking Israel and anti Semitism. So JD's kind of trudging the anti Zionism is not anti Semitism path there in a response to a right wing influencer, which is kind of crazy enough as it is that the, that the Vice President is engaging with a random right wing influencer on X. But like what you see here is JD now, who's the top billed person at this TPUSA conference and who has Tucker Carlson's kid on his staff. JD is very much trying to straddle this and trying to be acceptable to mainstream folks but also really send a lot of signals to people in the Tucker Candace Fuentes world that he is hearing their arguments when it comes to nativism and anti Zionism at a minimum.
- [33:03]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean I think he's really trying to avoid alienating this kind of young or you know, in the case of Tucker, not so young, but this kind of anti, sort of anti establishment when it comes to, to the view on Israel in the Republican Party, this group. And so you can see why he's trying to deflect it, I think onto what's a safer issue for him, which is immigration, saying look, why don't we just ban people from these countries coming in? I mean clearly Piercey's talking about Muslim immigrants in particular.
- [33:28]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Who is Sarah Stock? She also replied to jd he didn't go back to Editor again. But he said, well, I have your attention. Can you please include India in the third world country ban? So this is. She wants to ban people from India from coming to the country. This is the type of person that the Vice President's engaging with online. Who is this?
- [33:46]
Will Sommer
Yeah, it is pretty odd when you put it that way, that the Vice President is just sort of getting her thoughts and input there. I mean, Sarah Stock is, I would say a C tier right wing influencer. She really shot to fame seven months ago, maybe in the. If people remember the Sam Cedar jubilee video. I know you're a jubilee veteran, Tim, but basically she was one of the kind of people who pop up. And in her case she was really sort of an avowed white nationalist. And Sam Cedar said, well, you know, I just don't want to bother debating with you. You know, she had some kind of like light turning point connection. I don't think she does anymore. But she's definitely on kind of that more harder. Right. Racist.
- [34:22]
Tim Miller
And so that's the person the Vice President's taking input from. Somebody that was kind of doing white nationalist stuff in a jubilee video as Sam Sater.
- [34:30]
Will Sommer
Well, you can see her sliding that in. Yeah, as long as I have you, you know, here's another brown country. It'll be a real. I don't like.
- [34:36]
Tim Miller
I gotta tell you, I think maybe the biggest sign of my success in my jubilee video is that I did not create a single right wing influencer. None of them went viral at my expense.
- [34:48]
Will Sommer
So far.
- [34:48]
Tim Miller
So far.
- [34:49]
Will Sommer
So far we might look back and say this is where we got a future Republican president. You know, he made a big splash.
- [34:55]
Tim Miller
I don't think so. I think that I neutralize them well enough for that. So anyway, it's more meta on the JD Thing because then I want to get to the impest because he is obviously trying to shore up any potential vulnerabilities he might have. Assuming Donald Trump steps aside and he wants to be the next in line to carry the banner for the mega movement. And you could imagine a vice president in a different world thinking, well, okay, I need to focus on appealing to the more kind of non political manosphere types who are a little bit less ideological or I need to kind of shore up our issues with the Christian base. There are all kinds of different factions. The faction that JD seems the most concerned about shoring up is like the most conspiratorial, like MAGA nationalist element of the party. Like he's got Tucker's kid on his staff. He will not Disavow Fuentes or disavow anyone that is making anti Indian comments despite his family. Who he chooses to engage with online is like generally, usually going after, you know, more whatever establishment types and being more defensive of kind of the fringe. Right. And I think that tells us where he assesses the juices in the party. And I think that is more important than where we assess. I think that it seems to me like the juices with the. Whatever Candace Tucker wing of the party. But I think it's pretty telling that the vice president agrees with that.
- [36:38]
Will Sommer
I think that's right. I mean, this is a world he's very familiar with. I mean, he's obviously a big fan of Mencius, Moldbug, Curtis Yarvin, the would be monarchist guy. I think he's saying, you know, I have to court this group. You know, I think it's also a group that he potentially could. Could lose control of. I mean, you look at someone like Nick Fuentes, who's been very critical of J.D. vance's ties to people like Peter Thiel. You know, there's this. Even within this group we're describing, there's a lot of different factions. And I think one of those groups is very concerned about things like Palantir, this kind of techno surveillance, authoritarian state that Peter Thiel represents. And so I think you're right to assess that. That J.D. vance sees that he has to kind of keep the regular Republicans that he inherits as the vice president, while also not really angering the groipers and people like them.
- [37:25]
Tim Miller
Okay. It's kind of embarrassing how bad I am at budgeting.
- [37:28]
Katie Miller
Let me see your charges.
- [37:30]
Will Sommer
Fine.
- [37:30]
Katie Miller
You spent over $600 on takeout last month.
- [37:33]
Tim Miller
I can't cook.
- [37:34]
Will Sommer
You know this.
- [37:35]
Katie Miller
Yes, I have had your disgusting food, but you're literally paying for a meal subscription on top of that.
- [37:40]
Will Sommer
Whoa, wait, wait, wait.
- [37:42]
Tim Miller
That. That can't be right.
- [37:43]
Katie Miller
Look, just get Rocket Money. It shows you all of your expenses in one place and even tracks your subscriptions. And if there's a subscription you don't want, which for you, there are a lot you don't need, you can just cancel right in the app with a few taps.
- [37:56]
Will Sommer
So you mean I don't have to call anyone to cancel?
- [37:59]
Katie Miller
Nope. No hold times or anything. And they'll even try to get you a refund on some of the months of wasted money, which is a lot of money for you.
- [38:06]
Tim Miller
Okay. Okay.
- [38:07]
Katie Miller
And if you thought I was done, I'm not. The app can also help you make a budget that Works for your income. Anytime you get close to your spending limits, it alerts you so you know exactly where your money is going at all times.
- [38:18]
Will Sommer
All right, I'm in. What do I have to do?
- [38:20]
Katie Miller
Go to RocketMoney.com cancel or download the app from the Apple or Google Play stores.
- [38:26]
Tim Miller
Let's go to the folks who are trying to straddle this divide and can keep it together. Mericafest. This is the end of the year turning point USA Fest. I've been to several times. The lineup is out. They do a Coachella style lineup. You know where they put the, you know, the top build people in the first row and then you get all the way down. I want to read through the first couple rows of who is speaking there because I think it's pretty telling about where things are going with the party. And just again to set the scene like this is, this is the biggest event of the year now and like it's way overshadowed cpac. There isn't really even equivalent of it on the left. I mean you of tens of thousands of people coming from around the country to gather in Arizona at the end of the year for this. Like it's just hard to judge this as not being like the most significant gathering on the right. And here, here are the headliners. J.D. vance is in slot one, then Erica Kirk. Slot three is Tucker. Four is Bannon, five is Don Jr. Then Tulsi, then Megyn Kelly. That's the first row. Okay. Megyn Kelly is the only person there that's like at all like at any point could have been considered like a traditional type conservative. Then you get the next row. You get some Fox people and Ben Shapiro on there. Then you get Glenn Beck who is just fresh off his efforts speaking to the AI George Washington that he created. And then you get the first actual candidate on the ballot candidate besides JD Is Vivek running in Ohio. And then you get Benny Johnson, Pizzagate, Jack Posobiek. Then you get the first cabinet member, Sean Duffy. You get Tom Homan after that. Then Ken Paxton, not John Cornyn, he's in a primary in the Senate. You get crazy Ken Paxton, not Cornyn. And then you get a bunch of weirdos after that. Doesn't that list tell you everything you need to know?
- [40:18]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean look, I mean you can see how big the kind of the right wing media of it all is. And as you said, I, I mean people like these are not typical kind of Fox News Republican media figures either. I mean Steve Bannon, Tucker Carlson, Amfest is very Much. I think who's invited and who's not is really says a lot about the direction of the Republican Party, at least as TPUSA wants to control it to be. It was a huge deal even before Charlie Kirk's assassination, whether or not Tucker Carlson would be invited to speak because he's become increasingly anti Israel. And that's a lot of what the drama with Charlie Kirk and his donors was about, whether he would take Tucker off the Speaker's list this year. So I think it's something that people on the right watch really closely in terms of who's in and who's out.
- [40:58]
Tim Miller
Yeah, like who's not on this list? Let's just go through Mike Johnson, John Thune, Nikki Haley. Is Ted Cruz on here? I don't see Ted Cruz. I'm gonna get to Ted Cruz in a second. Those types of people. I mean, I don't know. Spencer Cox was the more mainstream governor of Utah, who was the governor in the state where Charlie was killed. You might imagine a different world where he gets invited to speak about that, that nobody in that vein is speaking at all. You do have Russell Brand, if you go down the list a little bit, and a bunch of other characters that you'd be familiar with that I don't know that our listeners will. So we won't waste our time. But like, I think that if you look at this, it's a very easy to see what the trajectory of this thing is. There's kind of this discussion of the crack up. It's kind of like there's still this fight over Israel that is happening. And like, Ben Shapiro is still there, like holding the ground on that side of the fight. But like, like the rest of it is over. The people that are running the grassroots movements of the right are nationalist populists in the vein of Tucker and Steve Bannon. And like, that's where things are going.
- [42:07]
Will Sommer
Yeah, that's right. I mean, it is striking that someone like Ted Cruz isn't on the list. I would say Turning Point is also. I mean, you mentioned that it's kind of Amfest has surpassed cpac. I mean, this is where the energy is, particularly after the Charlie Kirk assassination. I mean, the question is sort of is it going to be Turning Point or is Candace going to get a slice of the action? Something like that. That rather than is it going to be, you know, the National Review or Ben Shapiro? I mean, those people are more or less out in the cold. They have kind of their legacy audiences, but they're not really driving anything Just.
- [42:33]
Tim Miller
On ted, really quick, I was joking with Bill Kristol about this. I think it was last week about how like Ted seems to be now positioning himself to kind of carry the banner for, you know, non conspiratorial, more traditionalist, you know, Republican values and strong military and strong role for America and the world. He went and had the fight with Tucker where he was supportive of the Iran strikes and Tucker was opposed. There's a lot of videos went out about that. I noticed yesterday Ted Cruz on his podcast, he's a competitor in the podcast space, did a kind of a tribute to Rob Reiner that was very much in contrast with the rhetoric we saw from Trump and his biggest allies online trashing Rob Reiner after he was murdered. It does seem like Cruz is going to try to kind of carry the banner of, I don't know what would be the type of person that would put bumpers on the most extreme elements of this and position himself as a counter to Vance and probably get a decent amount of more traditional Republican 70, 80 year old stoners to fund that effort.
- [43:42]
Will Sommer
Yeah, it seems like he's trying to set himself up as sort of like a little mix of Trumpism and a little mix of the old Republican Party and we're gonna combine it. Whereas JD Vance seems sort of like this. We're gonna go really mega on the sort of, the least I would say, appetizing aspects of Trump to the, the non sort of MAGA base with a little like kind of this techno authoritarianism, this, this new right aspect of, you know, we got to do it to our enemies before they do it to us. And, you know, Certainly I think J.D. vance's people see Ted Cruz as potentially their biggest rival amid the previous controversy over Tucker Carlson. Interviewing Nick Fuentes, the Heritage foundation got caught up in all this stuff the Vance partisans were saying. This is really kind of like a proxy war between basically Ted Cruz's people, people like Mark Levin, Ben Shapiro. They're only heightening this issue because they know that J.D. vance has ties to Tucker and they're trying to damage JD Vance over it.
- [44:34]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it's interesting. I think that effort is gonna fail. My assessment is that the MAGA vase and Republican voters and the Trump coalition is not interested in foreign wars or entanglements at all. I think that there's a, obviously a vein of anti Semitism. There's also just a vein of, just a rejection of the neocon orthodoxy on foreign policy that is the majority view in the right. And Ted Cruz, whatever, fighting a good fight Against Tucker Carlton Carlson's bigotry is fine. There's room for kamikaze soldiers out there in the world. But I don't know that JD has any vulnerability there. You mentioned another thing though, that I think might be a vulnerability of J.D. vance, and that is the. I believe the word he used was the techno authoritarianism. JD has like combined. Part of his coalition within the smaga. Infighting is basically, you know, the nativists, the MAGA nativists, and you know, kind of dipping his toe into the right wing conspiracy world. But he also has combined that with very close ties to Peter Thiel and Marc Andreessen and David Sacks and that like the tech maga world. And you've seen him take criticism on that from Bannon and others who say that JD is in the pocket of these big tech oligarchs. And I think that to me, as I project out to 2028, that could be a more interesting fault line than the Israel and foreign policy stuff. Because I think that the MAGA base is probably more sympathetic to anti big tech arguments and to the argument that JD is their puppet than they would be to what Ted Cruz is putting forth. What do you make of that claim and what are you seeing in that kind of fissure?
- [46:22]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think there are a couple issues there. I think the anti big tech stuff operates on a couple angles. Potentially the surveillance aspect, these sort of. Steve Bannon talks a lot about his fears of the singularity when we all become robots, but sort of on the less extreme aspect, the sort of. More practically, I think there's a growing anger over like AI data centers in these communities and people's fear that, you know, you'll get taken over by a server farm. There's a lot of anger on the populist and I think really young white men over H1B visas. And the idea that. And this dovetails with the kind of the anti Indian hatred we've been seeing rising and the idea that these tech companies are really like, you know, just importing all these workers. So I think there's a lot there. And then, you know, the other thing is what's another like big movement within the right right now is Maha. And these are people who are like crunchy, you know, they often want to like, you know, go away for less technology in their lives. So I think there's a couple little vectors here that I think J.D. vance's ties to big tech companies could be an issue.
- [47:17]
Tim Miller
And I do think that there is like an anti elite sentiment in Both parties, like on the right, where a lot of these big tech guys are, you know, kind of representative of what they thought that Trump was going in there to, you know, dismantle. Right. Like the power of folks like that. And I think that potentially there's just an issue there, just like coziness. Like these guys are globalists. Like, sorry, like Sam Altman, Peter Thiel, like Mark Andrews. They might try to like pretend like they're not, but like they are.
- [47:48]
Will Sommer
I think that's right. I feel like the tech oligarchs have been so successful at aligning themselves with the Trump administration that in some ways it's become a problem for J.D. vance. And how is he going to separate himself, leaving aside his own personal.
- [47:59]
Tim Miller
I want to go through a couple of other things, just kind of to close. Thinking about the amfest and the right, the feud between Candace and Erica and where the energy is. Are you seeing any movement of the right or any excitement around, I don't know, like a three legged stool of cutting taxes, cutting regulations, family values and a strong military? Seeing any interest in that?
- [48:24]
Will Sommer
No, I'm really not. I thought you were going to say and punishing the French Foreign Legion for their misdeeds to Charlie Carter. No, I'm really not. I feel like so much. I mean, it's so divorced from policy in a lot of ways. I mean, besides maybe some big ones like immigration restriction. I think that's why someone like Candace Owens has been able to be so successful, because she's so entertaining. The one thing I'd add here, as we close on Erica and Candace says, you know, I think we're going to be hearing a lot more about this meeting. But I think it's already clear that there's a real difference of opinion in what happened there. I mean, Erica Kirk said it's time to get back to work, you know, so she's like, it's over, we're done. We're moving on from the conspiracy, the theories. Candace Owens says they were really interested in the intel I offered, so clearly she's trying to subsume them into the Candace intelligence agency.
- [49:04]
Tim Miller
Did you have a favorite Candace take on the Kirk killing? I mean, the French legionnaires being on the ground has got to be it. But the B cult and the men in maroon were also intriguing. The guy with the hoodie was also intriguing to me. Did you have one that caught your eye?
- [49:20]
Will Sommer
You know, I feel like the B cult and the trapdoor, I mean, you got into this in your bulwark takes. You unearthed a Lot of classics that I had forgotten. I mean, for me, the craziest has been that she's still. She still says she's being hunted by a multinational team of assassins, yet she's willing to go hang out with Theo Vaughn at, of all things, Tucker Carlson's nicotine pouch party.
- [49:41]
Tim Miller
You would think that would be an area where the French Legion and the Israeli assassins would want to look, you know, and if they're on the hunt for Candace, I feel like Tucker Carlson's nicotine pouch party in Nashville would be like. Like something you'd want to stake out.
- [49:57]
Will Sommer
Well, those French guys, they're probably smoking cigarettes. They're sticking out like sore thumbs. They're not packing the lip. That's. Candace is safe.
- [50:04]
Tim Miller
Yeah. The Tucker pouch, can I just say, has also penetrated the marketplace. I was somewhere over the last couple weeks where a friend was telling me that they had switched from Zyn to Tucker's pouch because they, like, I don't know, whatever, the wetness or something, the way it feels like Tucker has, like. I think it's important. I gotta. Don't know if people realize this, like, Tucker has, like, now is like a. Is a nicotine pouch magnet. Like, it's not, you know, it's one of these things where some of these right Wing, you know, products are like. It's just for, like, the freaks that consume right wing media, and they're like, I'm gonna eat the alternative Cheerios for patriots or whatever. And it's like, not really a business business. Tucker's nicotine pouch business feels like a real business.
- [50:54]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, he was obviously an early adopter of the sort of the Zinn style nicotine pouch. I remember the nelk Boys on YouTube gave him a Zinn pouch the size of a car. They airlifted it, and he was so excited, and I think he clearly decided to, you know, get his beak wet on this business himself.
- [51:09]
Tim Miller
Be quiet's kind of a gross thing to say because he also says that the pouches help him, you know, engorge. That's what he says. You haven't seen that?
- [51:19]
Will Sommer
No.
- [51:21]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Well, anyway, I don't know. Yeah. Tucker claims that Zyn is the product for people that want to put the nicotine. Insert the nicotine pouch anally and that. That his product is for people that want to. Want to put them in their gums and want to get extra. Anyway, we'll leave it there. It's a family podcast.
- [51:46]
Katie Miller
Think about the last time you had to cancel a subscription. There was probably some waiting on hold Some guessing at your password, some mind numbing small talk, and maybe after all that, you still weren't able to cancel it. Good news, it doesn't have to be this way. Thanks to Rocket Money, Rocket Money tracks, manages, and can cancel your subscriptions for you. When you connect your account, you'll see a complete picture of all of your recurring subscriptions all in one place. Rocket Money organizes your subscriptions by due date and notifies you when something is coming up. So you'll never be caught off guard when you get charged. If you see a subscription you want to cancel, Rocket Money simplifies the process. Instead of waiting on hold for an hour, you can cancel it right from the app. Rocket Money will even try to get you a refund for the money you spent on subscriptions you forgot about. Stop wasting time trying to cancel subscriptions the hard way, make your life easier and go to RocketMoney.com cancel. That's RocketMoney.com cancel or download the app from the Apple app or Google Play stores.
- [52:47]
Tim Miller
What else do we got here? Oh, our friend Katie Miller, another competitor in the podcast space, Stephen Miller's wife, is interviewing today. Cash and his girlfriend. I want to play a little bit of the teaser from that interview.
- [53:03]
Katie Miller
We are so excited to be joined by Cash and his beautiful girlfriend, Alexa. So I just want to clarify, you're not Jewish?
- [53:09]
Will Sommer
I'm not.
- [53:10]
Katie Miller
You are not from Israel?
- [53:12]
Will Sommer
No.
- [53:13]
Katie Miller
So how did we get to Are you a Mossad agent?
- [53:16]
Tim Miller
You know, that's a great question.
- [53:17]
Katie Miller
Where's her ring? Just to clarify, how often has he traveled to see you since January 20th?
- [53:25]
Tim Miller
That's a sizzle reel. That's Katie sort of doing a highlight reel of her questions to them, teasing us about the answers. I can feel the how did we get to Are you a Mossad agent about Cash's wife? Just the aforementioned 53 minutes of this podcast. There's a lot of obsession on the right with Israel. Conspiracy theories would be the answer to that question. And her husband and bosses, former bosses, are encouraging it and playing along with it. The other question she mentioned is something that you did a lot of reporting on, which was the fact that the bureau chief of the FBI has been using the FBI plane to go visit the girlfriend in Nashville a lot. And I guess they had to address that on the podcast. Talk about what you're seeing out there from Cash and the girlfriend. If you have any updates since your last newsletter on that front.
- [54:11]
Will Sommer
Well, you know, I think they've been laying low since the big kind of the private jet Incident, obviously, if he famously took it to go see her sing at a, took to the jet to see her sing at a wrestling match in Pennsylvania and then took her home to Nashville. And then after that, you know, I started looking at the jet stuff and I mean, there were like a lot of jet trips and now the FBI director has to travel by jet. That's the rule. By a private jet. But, you know, it was a lot of trips and real quick ones too, to Nashville. It makes you wonder what was he picking her up, what was going on there. The New York Times did some reporting on this as well. There's been a lot on her use of BO bodyguards. I guess that's the latest is that, you know, not only does she have an FBI security detail, which is very unusual, but then, you know, I believe the Times reported that she was at one point demanded that the, the security detail takes one of her drunk friends home, drive her home a couple times. The FBI has denied that because, you know, I was about to say they've been kind of keeping themselves out of controversy, but I guess not. I mean, they're really still in the mix. I, I guess they're trying to, you know, it kind of, you know, here we see Katie Miller ask when are you going to get married? So maybe that's the next step.
- [55:12]
Tim Miller
Yeah, the girlfriend's drunk friend getting the security detail. I'm not sure why a girlfriend should be getting security detail. Cash, though. This feels a little risky to do this kind of soft Oprah couch interview about where the FBI director is with his girlfriend, much younger girlfriend, who he's been traveling to see amidst a lot of controversy about the fact that they, they identified the wrong shooter at the Brown University campus shooting. That shooter at the time of this taping is still at large. Like doing this kind of interview when you have that high stakes of a job seems like poor judgment. I noticed on Twitter this morning Segar and Genti posted that you have to have a sub 60 IQ to take this interview. I saw a lot of right wing accounts retweeting that you've been reporting with Kyle Serafin, who is a former character, a former FBI agent who's been ginning up a lot of people upset at Cash. It does seem like Cash is really playing the fire here.
- [56:16]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I agree. I think his move here should have been to really lay low and to focus on being the FBI director. In the past we didn't see, I don't think Robert Mueller or James Comey sitting for these kind of Oprah type interviews. With their wives. But Cash is a different breed.
- [56:34]
Tim Miller
Timu Oprah.
- [56:35]
Will Sommer
Yes, exactly. Well, yeah, very much so. I mean, whatever. Whatever Temu's Teemu is. I mean, this is. It's very strange. And I feel like it was just a few weeks ago that it was reported that Trump was getting fed up with. With Cash's kind of publicity hound ways.
- [56:48]
Tim Miller
But.
- [56:48]
Will Sommer
But I guess, you know, Cash thinks things have blown over.
- [56:50]
Tim Miller
I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about Katie Miller for a second. Who has the tea moves? Teemu's Oprah. It's kind of like the old Bill Simmons was like, you know, there's the phrase where this player is a poor man's version of someone else. And he's like, we had to upgrade that for like, really bad players. This is a homeless man's ver of someone else. Like, we need whatever's below TEMU for this. Temu Oprah has 25,000 YouTube subscribers. I've got some friends with kids who have Roblox YouTube accounts that have more subscribers than that. Katie's had Elon Musk, Pete Hegseth, Kash Patel, Cheryl Hines, Pam Bondi, Mike Tyson, and JD Vance on this podcast. I mean, that's quite the booking, I guess, of people doing favors for her husband. And yet literally nobody is watching it.
- [57:36]
Will Sommer
Yeah, these numbers are brutal. I mean, for some of these, that's.
- [57:39]
Tim Miller
The question.
- [57:43]
Will Sommer
She'S trying to crack. She had Cheryl Hines on, who's a relatively prominent figure. She couldn't crack 10,000 on views on that, which is. These are really poor numbers. And Katie Miller, I feel like she didn't really intend to become an influencer. She had this thing where she was working in the White House. Then she left to work for Elon when he left the administration. I guess that didn't work out. And so she said, well, I guess I'll become kind of like this, this. This Mom MAGA figure. But, you know, there's a lot of competition in that field already among it, you know, Candace Owens and. And so I think she's sort of stuck, even though she's getting these big. These big guests.
- [58:18]
Tim Miller
It's pretty sad. I mean, it's a sad state of affairs. You'd think you there'd be a little bit of shame. I guess you just know that you're Gollum husband is essentially running the White House right now. So the Secretary of Defense just has to do what he says. What other rationale is there for it? You have to go and say to Hegseth And Vance and Bondi, the three most powerful people in the administration that. Yeah. You spent two hours with me on my TEMU Oprah podcast and you got 12,000 views.
- [58:49]
Will Sommer
She has a funny thing going where I feel like she's always having these people on when they're in the midst of some scandal. Maybe it's because they're always kind of embroiled in some scandal scandal. But she had Pete Hegseth on right around the time that he had ordered this sort of no survivors strike. I don't think she asked about that. She had Cheryl Hines on and had like a. You asked about Olivia Nuzzy, I think to her credit. And Cheryl Hines said, you know, not really going to talk about it. She goes, okay, you know, and now she has Cash who's sort of embroiled in, I don't know, several scandals at once. So she's getting these, I think what would be interesting guests. But they're, they're sort of using her to launder to have, you know, a nice sit down about when are they going to get engaged?
- [59:23]
Tim Miller
Must be nice to have the in house North Korean podcast at the White Katie Miller. Don't have to do any numbers. Okay. Two other things. I'll let you go. You've been covering this guy that is a little bit below the radar I think nationally at this point. And his name is James Fishback. He's running for governor of Florida as a Republican. Talk to us about that campaign.
- [59:45]
Will Sommer
Yeah, so James Fishback is a guy I bought in on early as a character to watch. So this is a guy who, he was a hedge fund analyst, sort of seemingly very low level level. And then he kind of fashioned himself as a. He's also very active in the anti woke high school debate scene.
- [60:00]
Tim Miller
And so I'm sorry, the anti woke high school debate scene. What's.
- [60:05]
Will Sommer
Yes.
- [60:06]
Tim Miller
Is there like a rival debate organization out there?
- [60:10]
Will Sommer
So he felt that high school debate had become too woke and so he launched his own nonprofit of anti woke high school debate. And if you believe a lawsuit filed earlier this year, he met his new girlfriend now when he was 26 and she was 16. And so that has been litigated. She ultimately didn't get a restraining order.
- [60:28]
Tim Miller
16.
- [60:28]
Will Sommer
16. Yes. He denies kind of broadly that anything untoward took place.
- [60:33]
Tim Miller
Epstein is jealous. Think about that idea. Like I'm going to create an anti woke. You would think that would draw mostly boys though. You'd think a gay predator would do that. Create an anti woke debate club. But anyway, and so now he's Running.
- [60:46]
Will Sommer
For governor of Florida. Florida. And a lot of his critics have been making that Epstein comparison. I think there's a lot still unresolved there. And again, he denies it, but he also had this whole thing where he kind of got in an imbroglio with this hedge fund he worked for. They said he was inflating his title. Then he got into a lot of sort of schemes around getting revenge at the hedge fund. And now he owes them. I believe once the legal fees are calculated, it's going to be like $2 million. So they repossessed his Tesla. He's just getting a lot of scrapes. I've written about it in False flight flag. And now he's really kind of positioning himself as like the groiper candidate. He's being really racist about Byron Donalds, who's the Trump candidate, who's black in the race. And he's saying, I'm going to make the trains run on time like Mussolini. So he's really leaning into the kind of Nick Fuentes of it all.
- [61:29]
Tim Miller
Do we know how he's polling?
- [61:31]
Will Sommer
You know, he's been putting out his own polls that show him very favorably. I think, you know, on the prediction markets, he's at about 20% in the primary. I think, weirdly, because Byron Donalds doesn't really have another competitor, I think it looks like he might, you know, be kind of the other, the, the sort of the DeSantis pick. Christina Pushaw, the DeSantis aide has reportedly been working with him, according to NBC this week. So, you know, it's so bizarre. I mean, this guy, to be frank, like shouldn't be, you know, running for dog catcher. I mean, he. I can't imagine what his credit score is going to be over this $2 million debt. And yet he's, you know, he's getting some traction. He got endorsed by a member of the State Board of Education.
- [62:07]
Tim Miller
Desantis spokesperson is working for the Groiper Canada. It.
- [62:11]
Will Sommer
So NBC reported that Fishback's uncle was saying that, that Pushaw was working for him and there were some other ties there. People can look it up. Pushaw denies that she's really linked to him, but there appears to be at least some elements of DeSantis world backing.
- [62:24]
Tim Miller
Fishback and they don't like to. They don't like Donald's. Why didn't Mrs. DeSantis run? I thought that was going to be the whole thing. I thought Casey was going to run against him.
- [62:32]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I remember that. And you know, people like Laura Loomer, you know, were really gearing up to attack her. And there was all this sense of like a DeSantis, you know, Casey DeSantis showdown against Byron Donalds. But I gu not. But so far, Fishback's been doing kind of like Fuentes tactics. He has young people stand up at Byron Donald's events and say, when will you debate James Fishback? And Donald seems kind of flummoxed by it, so I think he might get some traction out of that.
- [62:59]
Tim Miller
Well, I guess if Byron Donald becomes governor of Florida, the good news for me here in Louisiana is that we might not have the worst and stupidest governor in the country anymore and we can kind of look askance at Florida again. Final thought topic when you came aboard the Bulwark, something I did not realize is like, there are, there are some like will Summer hipsters out there, okay, that are like people that are deep in your oath, you know, that read like the last little item of the newsletter or go back to archival versions of Fever Dreams podcast to see what is happening with old characters from the MAGA world. And just, you know, just I want you to give one to the real ones. Is there somebody you're following right now that's a little bit off the radar that's, that's catching your eye?
- [63:41]
Will Sommer
Yeah, this is a figure who really excites me. I'm glad to bring one for the, the real heads, the ones who know like the real lunatics who could never lead a newsletter but because they're too niche. But I got onto this guy recently named Gary the numbers guy. And this guy, he, he's kind of like, he looks like kind of like a Midwest uncle. He's got a big beard, it's kind of hunched over and he wears a hat with a series of numbers on it. And he is like the manosphere Successful seven. Well, no, that would be good. I haven't seen him weigh in on, you know, whether that's a favorable number. But basically he does numerology for like these right wing manosphere guys that people are familiar with, fresh and fit. So he's kind of like one of their minions. And so they'll say, hey Gary, like, you know, here's my birthday. And he'll say, that's very auspicious. And so he was on, on Tim Pool. Tim Pool's raging against Candace Owens. And he says, you know, and now my guess why, why is Candace Owens being so awful to everyone on the right? And he goes to Gary and he goes, well, I'm afraid she's a year of the year of the dragon. And this is the year of the dragon or whatever. And that's why she's so powerful right now. You know, what. What can we do about it? And, I mean, this whole other universe he exists in, but I think he just consistently says, like, your horoscope is going to be fabulous. And they go, wow, you know, you're a genius, Gary.
- [64:55]
Tim Miller
Gary the mega numerologist. Well, I would have. I would have mocked this more if it wasn't for the fact that it was just yesterday that I was scrolling through the YouTube comments. Yeah, I look at your comments from times. From time to time, I want to hear your feedback, people. We care, particularly if you're a subscriber. Look at those comments. And someone replied to me and Sam Stein in the potpourri video we did over the weekend and said that both Sam and I have really favorable birth year date numerology.
- [65:27]
Will Sommer
That's huge.
- [65:28]
Tim Miller
Very good. And I felt really good about that because I feel like I probably have good numerology. And so I don't know what Gary thinks. I don't know if there's competing numerologies, but I'm open to hearing about it. Will Sommer, thank you so much. It's the False Flag newsletter. Go sign up for that. There'll be a bunch in the False Flag newsletter this week as we hear more about the Erica and Candace meeting. The Epstein files coming out later this week. So it'll make good reading for you, you and your family over the holidays. Will, I'll talk to you again soon.
- [66:01]
Will Sommer
Hey, thanks for having me.
- [66:02]
Tim Miller
Everybody else will be back tomorrow. We're gonna. We're gonna get a little more serious tomorrow. Okay? We're gonna get a little more serious. So it'll be good, though. It'll be good, important and serious. You know, we got balance in all things in this world. So make sure to come back for tomorrow's show. Check out the mailbag from yesterday. We'll see you all soon. Like a circle in a spiral Like a wheel within a wheel Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel Like a snowball down a mountain Or a carnival balloon Like a carousel that's turning running rings around the moon Like a clock whose hands are sweeping past the minutes of its face and the world is like an apple whirling silently in space like the circles that you find in the windmills of your mind Like a circle in a spiral Like a wheel within a wheel Never ending or beginning on an ever spinning reel as the image is unwind. Like the circles that you find. In the windmill of your mind. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.