Lis Smith: A Very Vengeful President

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: The Bulwark – Lis Smith: A Very Vengeful President

Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Lis Smith (Democratic strategist, author, campaign advisor)
Date: May 29, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode features host Tim Miller in conversation with seasoned Democratic strategist Lis Smith. They dive into the Trump administration’s increasingly vengeful tactics—from targeting critics and political opponents, to escalating international tensions with Iran—and examine how this approach is backfiring at home and with voters. The conversation is candid, irreverent, and blends personal anecdotes with sharp analysis about the political and policy dangers of a presidency fueled by retribution.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lighthearted Banter and Eventful Week (00:06–02:33)

• Personal Updates and Banter: Tim and Lis open with playful exchanges about family, with Lis noting her mom is recovering from a pelvis injury and joking about Tim’s rapport with her.
• Tim’s “Foreign Agent” Flap: Tim humorously recounts being labeled by the White House as a possible violator of FARA (Foreign Agents Registration Act) for quote-tweeting an Iranian news agency, underscoring the absurdity:
  • “I was just commenting on what they said. I don’t take any Iranian money. Obviously, we’re supported...at thebulwark.com.” (Tim, 01:21)
• Lis’s Take on the Flap: She jests about Tim’s excitement at the attention and the irony of being called soft on Iran (given The Bulwark’s hawkish reputation):
  • “This is probably the first time in history that anyone associated with Bill Kristol has been accused of being soft on Iran.” (Lis, 02:16)

---

2. Weaponization of Government Power (02:33–04:54)

• Hostility from the Administration: Tim and Lis discuss the Trump administration’s incompetence and growing vindictiveness toward perceived enemies—from the “seashell crimes” (Trump’s minor legal pursuits against opponents) to high-profile Dems like Adam Schiff, who remains unshaken:
  • “[Adam Schiff] did everything by the law. He's pretty much a Boy Scout, so I don’t think he’s too concerned.” (Lis, 03:27)
• Psychology of Being Targeted: Despite Tim’s enjoyment of the notoriety, both agree most people dislike being in an administration’s crosshairs.

---

3. The Iran War: Policy, Politics, and Public Opinion (04:54–07:59)

• Widespread Unpopularity and No Clear Endgame: Lis strongly critiques the rationale for the Trump administration’s actions on Iran, likening it unfavorably to historical wars and citing direct consequences for voters:
  • “It is a dumb war...there really was no rationale for going in. There’s no end game. The effects of it are being felt immediately. Gas prices are so out of control.” (Lis, 04:54-05:49)
• Trump’s Broken Promises: The discussion highlights Trump’s failures to deliver on key campaign promises (“lower costs,” “no new wars”), noting how voters are directly feeling the sting:
  • “He is getting us into wars and as a result, raising our costs. So it’s a very clear connection...directly connected to the price that people are paying for gas at the pump.” (Lis, 05:21-05:49)
• The Phantom “Victory” Over Iran: They mock the perpetual media claims that a big diplomatic breakthrough is just around the corner. Tim questions what an actual “win” would even look like, given the costs:
  • “Even if the Iranians...are like, ‘Mr. Trump, whatever you want, we’re opening the Strait tomorrow’...was it worth it? Was it worth pissing off our allies?...the cost to consumers of gas. I don’t even know what a win looks like.” (Tim, 06:22-06:53)
• Political Fallout and Gas Prices: Lis predicts no quick relief before election day, and that consumers—especially those who abandoned Biden over inflation—are losing the most:
  • “The biggest losers...are going to be consumers. It’s going to be the voters who went to the polls...because costs are too high and he [Trump] doesn’t give a shit about inflation. And Donald Trump very clearly gives even less of a shit about inflation than Joe Biden does.” (Lis, 07:30-07:59)

---

4. Vengeance and the DOJ: The E. Jean Carroll Case (07:59–10:14)

• Escalation Against E. Jean Carroll: Tim highlights the “sick” development that the DOJ is investigating Carroll for perjury after her civil suit against Trump, decrying the blatant retribution:
  • “It’s so disgusting to think that E. Jean was victimized by Trump...and now he becomes the president and he’s trying to victimize her again...Is this what we want the fucking DOJ doing?” (Tim, 08:23-08:44)
• Dangerous Precedent and Misplaced Priorities: Lis emphasizes the broader danger of using government power for vendettas and the risk of Democrats adopting similar tactics:
  • “If Donald Trump can do this...Democrats could go in and do it against theirs. But beyond that, the DOJ—doesn’t the DOJ have bigger fish to fry?” (Lis, 09:09-09:44)
• Impact on Justice and Priorities: They both agree targeting Carroll is “petty,” “frightening,” and not what the presidency should be focused on.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This is probably the first time in history that anyone associated with Bill Kristol has been accused of being soft on Iran.” (Lis Smith, 02:16)
• “He is getting us into wars and as a result, raising our costs. So it’s a very clear connection...directly connected to the price that people are paying for gas at the pump.” (Lis Smith, 05:21-05:49)
• “Even if the Iranians...are like, ‘Mr. Trump, whatever you want, we’re opening the Strait tomorrow’...was it worth it?...I don’t even know what a win looks like.” (Tim Miller, 06:22-06:53)
• “It’s so disgusting to think that E. Jean was victimized by Trump...and now he becomes the president and he’s trying to victimize her again...Is this what we want the fucking DOJ doing?” (Tim Miller, 08:23-08:44)

---

Important Timestamps

• 00:06 – Show introduction and guest welcome
• 01:21 – Tim discusses being accused of foreign agent status
• 02:16 – Lis jokes about The Bulwark’s hawkish image
• 03:09 – Adam Schiff in the administration’s crosshairs
• 04:54 – Iran war: public opinion and political analysis
• 05:49 – Discussion of “victories” and their meaning (or lack thereof)
• 07:30 – Gas prices, voters, and Trump’s political vulnerabilities
• 07:59 – E. Jean Carroll and the use of DOJ for vengeance
• 09:44–10:14 – Conclusion of the Carroll discussion

---

Tone and Style

The episode is fast-paced, sharp, and irreverent. Both Tim and Lis balance incisive policy critique with personal, sometimes dark humor—never pulling punches in their criticism of Trump’s vindictiveness or the broader consequences for democracy and everyday Americans. For listeners seeking an honest, insider perspective on the high-stakes intersection of politics, policy, and presidential personality, this episode delivers directness and depth.

---

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We are live and in person in New York City. So I'm excited to have my old pal, a Democratic strategist, advisor to the bench and majority Dems, author of Any Given A Political Love Story. And we are here in kind of a mommy blogger studio. So I have a mommy. It's Liz Smith. How you doing?

[A]

I'm good, thank you. It's good to see you again.

[B]

How's your mom?

[A]

My mom is great. Yeah, she's great. She's recovering from a broken pelvis, but nothing can keep her down.

[B]

Does she miss me?

[A]

Of course she misses you. I didn't tell her that I was going on your show today. This is gonna be the highlight of her week.

[B]

Okay. Maybe I should swing by. Does she need ice cream or something? Does she need a delivery?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Maybe some pt? Are you qualified for that?

[B]

I can't do pelvic pt. I don't think she wants me touching her pelvis.

[A]

I feel like she would be more comfortable with you touching her pelvis than most other men.

[B]

Sure. Okay. Well, we'll get back to that. We might have to have a little parent corner at the end since we, you know, since it feels like a parenting vibe for Friday. We've got some fun stuff for people. There's a little bit of concerning news in my life. Not for me, actually. I'm not really worried about it. My husband doesn't. Didn't love it. Like when he saw that the White House sent out a tweet earlier this week accusing me of violating Farah, which is the, you know, where you have to register as a foreign agent. The reason that they said I violated Farrell was because I, quote, tweeted a report coming out of the farce Iranian news agency. I was just commenting on what they said. I don't take any Iranian money. Obviously, we're supported by our lovely viewers and [e-mail] Donald Trump does take money from foreign countries. Quite a few.

[A]

His family does too.

[B]

Yeah, his family does. Yeah. Uae, Saudi, Qatar. He's getting a plane from Qatar. Seems like he might be a foreign agen, but I don't know. What do you think? Is this kind of good news for me? Should I be concerned? Should I be lawyering up?

[A]

I could see why your husband is unhappy about it, but I feel like you are gonna be absolutely insufferable about this. You are just gonna talk about this nonstop. Even like last night, you texted me five times just Making sure. I knew that one of the topics was gonna be you and Farrah. You're gonna be at the bar saying, hey, did you guys see the tweet? I'm now Farrah. But I mean, what's incredible to me is that this is probably the first time in history that anyone associated with Bell Kristol has been accused of being soft on Iran.

[B]

An Iranian agent even. Forget soft on Iran.

[A]

What a world.

[B]

Yeah, it's a strange world. Yeah. We had Bob Kagan on earlier this week, and he was sounding like a downright leftist. So things are changing. But I am going to be insufferable about it, in part because there's no reason to be scared of these guys on this front because they've been competent in a lot of areas with their nefarious goals. Immigration, for example. They haven't really been very good at going after the foes, I don't think. The seashell crimes. I had Jim Comey on the pod a couple weeks ago. He didn't seem to be shaking in his boots about going to prison over the seashells. I don't know.

[A]

And I work with Adam Schiff, worked with him for a number of years now, and it seems like they've been trying now for over a year to get him and haven't been able to do so.

[B]

How does he feel? How does Mrs. Schiff feel? Is she nervous, or are they.

[A]

I don't think anyone's ever stoked to be, you know, in the crosshairs of a. Of a very vengeful president, but he's an upright guy. He did everything by the law. He's pretty much a boy Scout, so I don't think he's too concerned about things. But no one likes being in the administration's crosshairs, except for maybe you.

[B]

I have to admit, you have me clocked. Yeah, I enjoyed it. And I'm hoping that they attack me more. The more they attack me over their stupid Iranian policy, it feels like the better.

[A]

Yeah. More eyeballs you get, the more money you make. What are they gonna do, kick you out of the White House briefing room? You don't need access to the White House.

[B]

And also, I mean, I think that as a broader level, I mean, you're talking to a lot of Dems. I feel like the more that they're talking about this just as a general issue, the worse it is for them. It'd be one thing if they were, I don't know, coming at me on something from an area of strength, but the reason why. A tweet that comments on how the Iranians are not really folding to Donald Trump's demands has them shook is because the Iranians don't seem to be folding Donald Trump's demands. And this thing was supposed to be over in a couple of days. It was going to be unconditional surrender. We're going to have the Iranian. Delsey Rodriguez was gonna be. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was coming back, whatever their stupid plan was. And, like, they're kind of fucked right now. And I don't know, do you say to your dumb clients, like, press on the gas on Iran right now?

[A]

Yeah, I do. It's incredibly unpopular across the board. I mean, it is a dumb war. If you go back to 2001, 2003 with Afghanistan, Iraq, there are at least some, you know, at least half baked excuses for going into this. There really was no rationale for going in. There's no end game. And the effects of it are being felt immediately. Gas prices are so out of control. And Donald Trump ran on two big things, which is, I'm gonna lower your costs and I'm gonna stop getting into wars. And he is getting us into wars and as a result, raising our costs. So it's a very clear connection. This is not just some amorphous thing that' happening across the globe. Hard to follow. It is directly connected to the price that people are paying for gas at the pump.

[B]

Yeah, I don't even know what a win is. Like your friend Scott Jennings posted yesterday, this looks like a huge win for President Trump. He was posting the 19th report from Axios saying that we have a deal right around the corner. They're going to be right eventually. And the folks at Axios, they just, one of these times they're going to be correct. Like they keep saying, a deal's around the corner. And I mean, in the kind the broad sweep of history, a deal is around the corner because we'll eventually have one, you would assume. But Jennings says this was a huge win. I don't even know what could be a win.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Like even, even if the Iranians gave them everything, even if the Iranians woke up tomorrow and they're like, we're crying uncle, the blockade is hurting us too much. You know, AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI, Number two, the maybe gay one is just like, Mr. Trump, whatever you want, we're opening the straight tomorrow. We'll give you the dust. Even then, it's like, was worth it? Was it worth pissing off our allies? Was it worth all the munitions we've lost, the cost of this war. We'd have to rebuild our military, the cost to consumers of gas. I don't even know what a win looks like.

[A]

Yeah, and that's the problem, is the cost. And thinking about all of that money that could have been spent here at home, and that was a big thing Trump talked about in 2024, is, why are we spending all this money in Ukraine when we could be spending it here at home? But he's doing that in Iran. And. And this Iran times 100 makes a lot less sense than intervening with Ukraine. And then the other thing that's even more troubling is when you see now that because of all the block industry of Hormuz, gas prices are not going to go down for a very, very long time. It's not like they come to a deal and gas prices immediately drop. So gas prices are going to remain high through the election. I do not see them getting a win before November. And the biggest losers of all this are going to be consumers. It's going to be the voters who went to the polls in 2024 and said, I'm not going to vote for Joe Biden because costs are too high and he doesn't give a shit about inflation. And Donald Trump very clearly gives even less of a shit about inflation than Joe Biden does.

[B]

All right, so just because I'm enjoying the administration threatening me doesn't make it good for the administration to threaten people. So I did want to mention one other story that's happened this week that I find pretty sick. Somebody else that seems like they're actually being targeted by the administration, not just by tweets is E. Jean Carroll. Cnn, reported that DOJ opened a criminal perjury investigation into her testimony during her deposition about how her lawsuit was funded. Nobody's confirmed that reporting, but there's also some other related investigations. Trump's trying to get immunity from having to pay her the 83 point. This is insane that he's going after her to the extent that they even are looking into it. It's so disgusting to think that Eugene was victimized by Trump. They took it to a jury of their peers, there was a result, and now he becomes the president and he's trying to victimize her again. I don't know what's your perspective on this? Because to me, it's just like, is this what we want the fucking DOJ doing? Does anybody want this? Does anybody feel like this is justice or makes anybody safer or anything? It makes me fucking pissed on her behalf.

[A]

It makes me pissed. And no, I don't think anyone wants this. I don't think anyone asks for this. And there is always that fear. If Donald Trump can do this against his enemies, Democrats could go in and do it against theirs. But beyond that, the doj.

[B]

Does that sound kind of good to you now? Are you thinking, are you changing your mood on whether the Democrats should do more vengeful.

[A]

I think Democrats should hold people accountable. But I'm not for just like, you know, bloodthirst vengeance, at least not, you know, politically in your personal life. All for it. But the other thing is like, doesn't the DOJ have bigger fish to fry?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, you know, drug trafficking, sex trafficking, all of these things. And instead of focusing on these big problems, we're focused on E. Jean Carroll, who had a, you know, legitimate claim that Trump had sexually assaulted her years ago. And I think it's frightening to people. I think it's really petty. And this is not what he was elected on, and this is not what people care about, and this is not making anyone's lives better.

[B]

Yeah. 82 year old Eugene Carroll. It was.