The Question That Left Trump’s NIH Chief Squirming

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: "The Question That Left Trump’s NIH Chief Squirming"

Date: August 10, 2026
Host: Will Saletan

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Episode Overview

This episode critically examines Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, the newly-appointed NIH director under President Trump, and his public statements in recent interviews. Host Will Saletan contrasts Bhattacharya’s claims about Dr. Anthony Fauci and vaccines—particularly those made during high-profile interviews—with factual records and expert consensus. The episode unpacks the political and scientific distortions now emanating from the leadership of the NIH under both Trump and RFK Jr., scrutinizing the implications these have for public health and trust.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bhattacharya’s Critique of Fauci on School Closures

• Bhattacharya’s Claim: Fauci personally and irresponsibly kept schools closed for excessively long periods, harming students, including his own children.
  • Bhattacharya: “There is in the diary a recommendation to people in California to close down schools. My kids stayed out of school for a year and a half. It kind of hurt to see that.” [01:07]
• Saletan’s Rebuttal: The claim that Fauci alone bears responsibility for prolonged closures is inaccurate. The original shutdown was a generally agreed 15-day precaution at the start of the pandemic, and by June 2020, Fauci was publicly advocating reopening schools.
  • Saletan: “In June, Fauci said, send the kids back, but also importantly, always make the goal that it is very important to get the children back to school…” [01:46]
• Contextual Clarification: Many subsequent closure decisions were made at state/local levels, often beyond Fauci's direct influence.

2. Misrepresentation of Fauci’s Role and Authority

• Bhattacharya’s Assertion: Fauci acted beyond his authority, making himself the de facto head of US public health.
  • Bhattacharya: “He acted as if he were the head of public health in this country.” [03:07]
• Saletan’s Response: Fauci was appointed as the chief medical advisor to the President—public advocacy for pandemic policy was within his role under Biden.
  • Saletan: “Joe Biden literally appointed Fauci to be his chief medical advisor. That was Fauci’s title. It was his job.” [03:25]

3. The COVID Origin Debate and Baseless Accusations

• Bhattacharya’s Accusation: Fauci, via NIH-funded research, could have been involved in creating COVID-19.
  • Bhattacharya: “NIH under Tony Fauci made decisions to support research that…might have led to the creation of COVID.” [03:58]
• Saletan’s Fact-Check: Exhaustive genetic comparisons disprove this; funded viruses studied in China were over 1,000 nucleotides different from SARS-CoV-2.
  • Saletan: “It is virtually impossible that the virus on which Fauci and NIH sponsored research in China could have become the COVID virus because they're just too genetically different.” [04:18]

4. Vaccine-Autism Non-Answers: The New Party Line

• Interviewer’s Direct Question: “Do you think vaccines cause autism?” [05:00]
  • Bhattacharya: “I mean, I don’t know for certain...Do I know for certain that all vaccines don’t cause autism? Well, that’s a different question.” [05:05]
• Saletan’s Analysis: Bhattacharya hedges because the Trump/Kennedy administration has mainstreamed skepticism—even inscribing this ambiguity on the CDC website. In reality, this claim is refuted by decades of global medical evidence.
  • Saletan: “The idea that vaccines cause autism is one of the most thoroughly studied questions in medicine.” [05:21]

5. Blaming Declining Vaccination on Fauci

• Bhattacharya’s Claim: Global drops in measles vaccination rates are the result of Fauci’s (allegedly) aggressive COVID vaccine messaging eroding trust.
  • Bhattacharya: “A lot of this is stemmed from the fact that during the pandemic, there were claims made about the COVID vaccination for kids that caused many people around the world to lose confidence in all vaccines.” [06:34]
• Fact-Check from Interviewer and Saletan: Anti-vaccine sentiment and measles resurgences predate COVID and are closely tied to campaigns led by figures like RFK Jr., not Fauci.
  • Gutman (Interviewer): “I distinctly remember covering a measles outbreak in…Vancouver, Washington, before the pandemic. That was largely linked to a cultural shift there that parents believed that childhood vaccinations were linked to autism…” [07:24]
  • Saletan: “It was people like Kennedy with their scare talk about autism. They drove the decline in vaccination and the increase in measles.” [07:51]

6. The Impact: Undermining Scientific Authority

• Saletan’s Conclusion: Bhattacharya, although an accomplished scientist, now echoes talking points designed to undermine scientific consensus, bowing to the new orthodoxy demanded by his political superiors.
  • Saletan: “Bhattachary is a real scientist, but he’s trapped in an insane administration.” [05:21]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On School Closures:
  • Bhattacharya: “He was making decisions about closing schools, in my view, against what the actual evidence was saying at the time… European countries opened their schools…He ignored.” [02:35]
• On Fauci’s Role:
  • Saletan: “Joe Biden literally appointed Fauci to be his chief medical advisor. That was Fauci's title. It was his job.” [03:25]
• On Lab Origin Theories:
  • Bhattacharya: “What I do know is that the decisions made by Tony Fauci during… the years leading up to the pandemic very well could have led to the cause that caused the pandemic.” [03:58]
• On Vaccine/Autism Hedge:
  • Bhattacharya: “Do I know for certain that all vaccines don’t cause autism? Well, that’s a different question.” [05:05]
• On Blame for Vaccine Erosion:
  • Gutman (Interviewer): “I distinctly remember covering a measles outbreak… before the pandemic… parents believed that childhood vaccinations were linked to autism and they elected not to vaccinate their kids.” [07:24]
• Saletan’s Synthesis:
  • “Bhattacharya works for Kennedy. Kennedy has been trying to scare people away from vaccines forever. But Bhattacharya says… the reason people stopped getting vaccinated is that Fauci… was too pro vaccine.” [06:53]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:07] Bhattacharya claims Fauci kept schools closed; Saletan fact-checks timeline.
• [02:35] Discussion: Did Fauci really ignore evidence on school risks?
• [03:07] Bhattacharya minimizes Fauci's public health authority; Saletan counters.
• [03:58] Lab origin theory accusations against Fauci.
• [05:00] Interviewer presses Bhattacharya on vaccine-autism link; evasive response.
• [06:34] Bhattacharya blames Fauci for global vaccination decline; historical context given.
• [07:24] Interviewer Gutman cites pre-pandemic measles outbreaks and anti-vaccine attitudes.
• [07:51] Saletan underscores the real origins of vaccine mistrust.

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Summary

This episode lays bare the contradictions and evasions of Jay Bhattacharya, the Trump/Kennedy-aligned NIH chief, in light of science and recent history. Through a detailed critique, Will Saletan exposes how politicized talking points are overtaking evidence-based public health guidance—especially on school closures, the origins of COVID-19, and vaccine trust. The discussion is both a fact-check and a warning about the consequences of subordinating science to politics at the very top of American health agencies.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's Will Saletan from the Bulwark. By now, I'm sure you've heard the Republican attacks on Tony Fauci, the guy who used to run the federal Covid response at the National Institutes of Health. But now there's a new sheriff in town. Donald Trump has a new NIH director, Jay Bhattacharya. And Bhattacharya says Fauci was totally wrong about COVID And now he says, under Robert F. Kennedy Jr. We finally have medical advice we can trust. Right. I want to show you two interviews that Bhattacharya just did, because it turns out these guys who tell you that Fauci couldn't be trusted are even less trustworthy themselves. Okay, let's start with an interview that Bhattacharya gave to CBS News about a week and a half ago, right after the Republicans got a hold of Fauci's diary. Bhattacharya said the diary showed that Fauci recommended closing the schools in black and white.

[B]

There is in the diary a recommendation to people in California to close down schools. My kids stayed out of school for a year and a half. It kind of hurt to see that.

[A]

A year and a half? Bhattacharya says his kids were out of school for a year and a half, and he blames Fauci. So let's check that out. Here is the diary entry where Fauci said he advised New York and California to close the schools. The date on that diary entry is March 15, 2020. That was at the start of the pandemic when Trump and everybody else agreed that we were gonna shut down for 15 days. And then we figured out that the schools were relatively safe. So in June, Fauci said, send the kids back, but also importantly, always make the goal that it is very important to get the children back to school for the unintended negative consequences that occur when we keep them out of school. That that was June of 2020. So I'm sorry that Bhattacharya's kids were kept out of school for another year and a half. But when Bhattacharya blames Fauci for that, he's just wrong. In the interview, Bhattacharya said countries that reopened their schools in the fall of 2020 were acting against Fauci's advice.

[B]

He was making decisions about closing schools, in my view, against what the actual evidence was saying at the time. Like the Europe. European countries opened their schools in the fall of 2020. Based on a lot of that evidence, that he ignored.

[A]

First of all, Fauci didn't make any decisions about closing schools. What he did was he gave recommendations, and closing the schools in the fall of 2020 was not what he recommended. So then Bhattacharya took another shot at Fauci.

[B]

The NIH is now focused on actually doing scientific work that advances health and long. I think the way that Tony Fauci acted during the pandemic, you know, he was the head of a research institute. He wasn't the head of public health, yet he acted as if he were the head of public health in this country.

[A]

Wait a minute. Joe Biden literally appointed Fauci to be his chief medical advisor. That was Fauci's title. It was his job. Now, Bhattacharya might not like that, but when he tells you that Fauci was. Was just a director at NIH and he had no business taking on this, the whole larger health portfolio, that is just not true. And then Bhattacharya suggested that Fauci, that Fauci himself may have caused the pandemic.

[B]

And I think that the. That the NIH under Tony Fauci made decisions to support research that. That actually might have led to the creation of COVID What I do know is that the decisions made by Tony Fauci during. In the years leading up to the pandemic very well could have led to the cause that caused the pandemic.

[A]

You've got to be kidding me. Okay, I've been over this before, but I guess I got to do it again. It is virtually impossible that the virus on which Fauci and NIH sponsored research in China could have become the COVID virus because they're just too genetically different. I've cited this fact check before, but here it is again. The viruses it says were 1,000 nucleotides apart. But Bhattacharya keeps trying to pin Covid on Fauci, and then Bhattacharya says he can't be sure that vaccines don't cause autism.

[C]

Do you think vaccines cause autism?

[B]

I mean, I don't know for certain. I mean, if you ask me specifically about, like, what my view of the evidence is, that I'd say that there isn't evidence that any vaccine I know of for certain cause autism. Do I know for certain that all vaccines don't cause autism? Well, that's a different question.

[A]

Look, technically, you can never be 100% certain of anything. I mean, look, you can drop a basketball 100 times, and it. It still won't prove that basketballs never float up. But the idea that vaccines cause autism is one of the most thoroughly studied questions in medicine. So why does Bhattacharya mumble and stumble and tell you he doesn't know for sure? Because that is the new orthodoxy under Trump and Kennedy. They literally changed the CDC website to say that it is not, quote, evidence based to say that vaccines don't cause autism. Look, Bhattachary is a real scientist, but he's trapped in an insane administration. And that is why he won't tell you bluntly that vaccines do not cause autism. And guess what happens when kids don't get vaccinated? We get these outbreaks of measles. But Bhattacharya says, oh, no, that's not my fault. It's not Kennedy's fault. No, no, no. Bhattacharya blames Fauci.

[B]

Right, so you've seen Canada lose its measles vaccination eradication status. Mexico's on its way the uk A lot of this is stemmed from the fact that during the pandemic, there were claims made about the COVID vaccination for kids that caused many people around the world to lose confidence in all vaccines.

[A]

This is just amazing. Bhattacharya works for Kennedy. Kennedy has been trying to scare people away from vaccines forever. But Bhattacharya says, no. The reason people stopped getting vaccinated is that Fauci. Fauci was too pro vaccine. Okay? But fortunately, fortunately, the interviewer, Matt Gutman, knows that that's not true, because Gutman reported on the decline of measles vaccination

[C]

before COVID I distinctly remember covering a measles outbreak in a community called Vancouver, Washington, before the pandemic. And that was largely linked to a cultural shift there that parents believed that childhood vaccinations were linked to autism and they elected not to vaccinate their kids. So I'm not sure that it is linked to Covid so much.

[A]

In other words, it was people like Kennedy with their scare talk about autism. They drove the decline in vaccination and the increase in measles. But Bhattacharya doesn't want to offend Kennedy, right? So he glosses over the history and he just repeats this line that it all goes back to Fauci and Covid.

[B]

But the real worldwide collapse in trust in public health that happened during COVID I think is the root cause of the drop in vaccination.

[A]

Okay, all of that is bad, but this is worse.