Raphael Warnock: Fight for Your Democracy

Summary

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The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Raphael Warnock: Fight for Your Democracy

Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Senator Raphael Warnock
Date: June 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Senator Raphael Warnock, senior pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church and Democratic Senator from Georgia, in a forthright and deeply personal conversation about American democracy under siege. With Warnock’s new book, The Crooked Places Made Straight: Reflections on the Moral Meaning of America, as a backdrop, the host and guest traverse the mounting threats to American democracy, faith in public life, concerns about gerrymandering and voting rights, and the challenge of galvanizing voters in a period of despair and division. The episode balances political analysis, moral advocacy, and vulnerability, as both men grapple with the state of the nation in the run-up to pivotal elections.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump Administration Nominations and National Security (13:00)

• Bill Pulte as DNI:
  Warnock expresses deep concern over President Trump’s fast-tracked nomination of Bill Pulte to Director of National Intelligence despite zero relevant experience and a history as a “MAGA scam artist.”
  • Warnock:

    “Bull Pulte is a non-starter, full stop. ... The man is unqualified. He knows nothing about national intelligence. ... Apparently one of the qualifications for appointments to the Trump administration is that you have to be wholly unqualified.” (13:36)

• Dangers for Democracy:
  The guest stresses the risk of unqualified appointees weaponizing the intelligence apparatus for political vendettas—specifically referencing raids in Fulton County, Georgia, and threats to election integrity.
  • Warnock:

    “He's trying to cast doubt on the coming election, which he knows he is on target to lose by continuing to besmirch an election that happened six years ago. ... They went to Fulton county to smash windows … ballots from 2020.” (17:36)

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2. Redistricting and the Supreme Court's Kalay Decision (21:15, 22:06)

• Consequences of Gerrymandering:
  Warnock decries recent Supreme Court rulings and actions in Southern states (Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee) that change election districts mid-cycle, diluting Black representation.
  • Warnock:

    “This is Jim Crow in new clothes. … Rather than the voters picking their representatives, politicians are busy trying to pick their voters.” (25:04)

• Strategies for Resistance:
  Warnock advocates for a ban on partisan gerrymandering (and has a bill to do so), but acknowledges there’s been “no Republican takers.”
• Importance of Grassroots Turnout:
  Emphasizes the essential role of voter engagement to counter despair and disenfranchisement:
  • Warnock:

    “Part of what we got to do is we've got to beat back against those who would try to so demoralize us, who would try to weaponize despair in such a way that people don't even bother to show up and help voters to understand that you got to fight for your democracy now.” (27:26)

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3. Despair, Faith, and the Civil Rights Tradition (28:12)

• Contemporary Parallels:
  Warnock draws a line from the post-civil rights South to current efforts to suppress Black voters and representation, referencing the words of LBJ and Martin Luther King Jr.
• Personal Struggle Against Despair:
  Warnock opens up about his own fight to “beat back the shadows of despair,” referencing encouragement—and the example—of civil rights leaders like John Lewis and Andrew Young.
  • Warnock:

    “We've been at this a long time, and it's ironic that as we approach the 250th birthday of the American grand experiment in democracy, we're fighting just to hold on to that idea.” (29:18)

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4. Reaching & Re-Energizing Disaffected Voters (34:09, 35:25)

• Engaging Black Men & Young Voters:
  Warnock stresses the importance of meeting voters where they are, using approachable language and policy relevance rather than Beltway jargon.
  • Warnock:

    “I think sometimes people around the Beltway get caught up in a kind of vocabulary and way of talking, which is why I go to my pulpit every Sunday and go back to my community. ... Black men want what other people want. What's the path to a prosperous life... dignity that comes with work…” (35:25)

• Democrats & Religious Voters:
  The conversation turns to Democrats’ struggle with faith communities—both Black churches and white evangelical communities—where perception of elitism remains a challenge.
  • Warnock:

    “I see no evidence at all that Donald Trump cares about those people. ... Washington, D.C. is too captive to interests. ... Poor white people in Louisiana, they rightly see that there's a disconnect between where they live and the conversation. Poor black folk growing up in rural parts of Georgia, same thing. And somehow we got to get back to a politics that centers ordinary people.” (39:03, 42:26)

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5. Faith and Politics: God Talk (43:55–50:18)

• The Role of Faith in Public Life:
  Warnock eloquently explains how his values—justice, truth telling, centering the poor—are rooted in his Christian faith yet resonate universally.
  • Warnock:

    “There's a way to live in your faith and talk about it that does not force that upon others in the public square. ... It's not my creeds that I bring to the work. It's my values.” (45:30)

• Hypocrisy and Political Faith Journeys:
  Lighthearted but biting commentary on Republican politicians' recent religious conversions:
  • Warnock:

    “J.D. Vance is perhaps the most craven politician in the American landscape. ... He called Donald Trump America's Hitler, and then... literally campaigning not just for a Senate seat, but campaigning to an audience of one to become his running mate.” (48:19)

  • On Mike Johnson:

    “They’re literally taking the food out of the mouths of hungry children… with these draconian cuts to SNAP that have disproportionately hurt rural red districts. … I was speaking to him as a Christian brother. ... I will continue to hold all of us accountable on both sides of the aisle.” (51:53)

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6. Personal Integrity, Political Hypocrisy & Standards (56:14–59:28)

• On Character and Holding Leaders Accountable:
  Warnock insists that integrity and character do matter, regardless of political party.
  • Warnock:

    “Character matters. ... All of us at best are sinners, saved by grace. ... Mr. Platner, whom I have not met, has some very serious accusations. I take these women seriously. And I think that the people of Maine… deserve an answer from him about these things, full stop.” (59:28)

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7. Faith, Doubt, and Raising Children (61:33–64:50)

• Faith and Doubt:
  Warnock is candid that faith is not certainty—it contains doubt. He models that relationship for his children by living his values, rather than just preaching them.
  • Warnock:

    “I think people who say they don't have any doubts have not thought seriously enough about it. ... Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Doubt is an element in faith. ... Sometimes I argue with God and I think that's what it means to have an authentic relationship.” (61:46–62:24)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Bull Pulte is a non-starter, full stop.” — Raphael Warnock (13:36)
• “This is Jim Crow in new clothes.” — Raphael Warnock (25:04)
• “We've got to beat back against those who would try to so demoralize us, who would try to weaponize despair in such a way that people don't even bother to show up and help voters to understand that you got to fight for your democracy now.” — Raphael Warnock (27:26)
• “There’s a way to live in your faith and talk about it that does not force that upon others in the public square.” — Raphael Warnock (45:30)
• “J.D. Vance is perhaps the most craven politician in the American landscape.” — Raphael Warnock (48:19)
• “Character matters. ... I take these women seriously. ... The people of Maine deserve an answer from him about these things, full stop.” — Raphael Warnock (59:28)
• “Doubt is not the opposite of faith. Doubt is an element in faith.” — Raphael Warnock (61:46)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 13:00 — Trump’s Bill Pulte DNI nomination and national security concerns
• 17:36 — Raids in Fulton County & election integrity threats
• 22:06 — The consequences of the Supreme Court’s Kalay decision on redistricting
• 25:04 — “Jim Crow in new clothes”: Modern gerrymandering and disenfranchisement
• 29:18 — Senator Warnock on fighting despair and the “shadows” in dark moments
• 31:49 — How civil rights leaders coped with hopelessness after setbacks
• 35:25 — Democratic engagement with young Black men and ordinary voters
• 39:03 — Alienation of religious and rural voters from the Democratic Party
• 45:30 — Warnock on bringing faith values (not creeds) to public service
• 48:19 — On J.D. Vance’s religious conversion & political hypocrisy
• 51:53 — Meeting with Speaker Mike Johnson and holding faith leaders accountable
• 59:28 — Discussing standards, integrity, and candidate misconduct
• 61:46 — Warnock on doubt, faith, and authentic spirituality
• 64:50 — Rapid-fire closer: Warnock on cursing, fitness, and parenthood

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Tone & Language

Throughout, Warnock’s language is candid, deeply moral, and accessible, often returning to scriptural storytelling and the “call and response” tradition of the Black church. Humor and sharp political insight intermingle with urgency about democracy and empathy for ordinary voters.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a window into Senator Warnock’s thinking as both a faith leader and a senator at a time of extraordinary challenge for American democracy. He underscores the interconnectedness of voting rights, economic justice, and faith in forging a more perfect union, pressing listeners—regardless of despair—not to outsource democracy but to fight for it themselves.

“The way you respond is you keep walking.” — Raphael Warnock (34:09)

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Transcript

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[Senator Raphael Warnock]

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[Tim Miller]

Amazon.com hey, everybody, we've got a good one with Raphael Warnock. Up next, we get into some heavy matters. You're speaking to a pastor and I kind of, you know, I feel like I've got the presence of God with me. I don't want to be a sinner and I don't want to completely give in to my worst impulses of mocking my neighbor. And so I decided to keep this little section where I mock Nancy Mace right at the top without Raphael Warnock involved. So I can do it free of any lingering Catholic guilt. Nancy Mace, don't know if you saw it, lost last night in her South Carolina race for governor. I'm going to go through for you the final election results here in the South Carolina governor's race. There were some other elections last night which we've talked about. Platner wins in Maine. Unfortunately, Lindsey Graham avoids a runoff in the Senate. The only one that really, really catches my eye is this, is this governor's results. So if you hadn't seen it, stick with me here because it might take a second to get to Nancy. First place. Advancing to the runoff, Lieutenant Governor Pamela Yvette. She received 28.9% of the vote, which is kind of an embarrassment for Trump as well. While we're adding embarrassments to this, Trump endorsed her and couldn't even get her to a third of the vote. She Almost loses that first round. Alan Wilson, who Nancy Mace accused of being a pedophile protector. He ends up at 26%. Unclear if that's because the voters of South Carolina did not believe Nancy Mace's attacks on Allen Wilson or whether South Carolina Republican primary voters are into pedophile protectors. Now, since that's what the President's doing. I'm not sure why it was that he did so well, but there it is. 26% for Allen Wilson. Ralph Norman, insurrectionist. Ralph Norman turned Nikki Haley endorser in the 2024 primary. Strange character. He finishes at 17%. So I think that's important to note. Somebody that endorsed against Trump in the 2024 primary. Third place, 17%. A man named Rom Reddy. R O M. It's a strange name. R O M Ready. He's a weird looking fella. I can't lie. I don't know anything about Rom Reddy. I can't give you one fun fact about him. He got 14.2%. Fourth place. Coming in. In fifth place, Congresswoman Nancy Mace, 12.1% of the vote. Fifth place. Many people on social media noted that was the same place that anti trans activist Riley Gaines finished in her swim meet that started her career as somebody whose number one issue is making sure that trans girls can't participate in women's sports because it's unfair to her. As somebody who tied for fifth place in a meet that she did not get fifth place as a standalone. That's what Riley Gaines wanted. Her and Nancy now have this in common. They are both singularly focused on checking the genitals of middle school sports athletes and they've both finished fifth place in their most significant campaigns. So it's nice that they have that bond together. Do have to note the deliciousness of this. As happy as I am about it, I'm not sure there's anybody happier than Delaware Congresswoman Sarah McBride, who has been the victim target of Nancy Mace's smears and slurs and Nancy's repeated comments about how Sarah should not be able to go into the women's restroom and how she feels at risk because of it, et cetera. We had Sarah McBride. She was at our free Andree event. I also interviewed her subsequently on the podcast the Best. She's great and tried to bait her into going after Nancy, but she was being a respectful leader, you know, and demurred little sly remarks about how Nancy would never say anything like that to her face, which I think was funny. All of these tough MAGA guys and gals you know, are really aggressive keyboard warriors. But when it comes to actually, you know, confronting someone and being a grown up, like Raphael Warnock did to Mike Johnson, we'll get into that. They don't have the gumption for that. They don't have the ovaries for that. I think that if you're Sarah McBride, you're like, you get one kind of pass one night on the night that Nancy Mays finishes in fifth place in her race. We get one chance to kind of revel in it. And I think that we can all just kind of give her a hall pass on that. More than a hall pass. We can all maybe just enjoy it together. Just have a little sweet treat together. So I'm going to play for you, Sarah McBride last night, who she happened to be on stage at an equality event while the results were coming in. And let's take a listen to what she had to say. My colleague and Congress's top bathroom sheriff, Nancy Mace, is on the ballot. And while not all of the votes have been counted yet, she is in a respectful fifth place. I don't like punching down and I believe in the politics of grace. So all I will say is happy pride. Nancy, bathroom, sheriff, the head bathroom. Get her a badge. Get Nancy Mesa badge. She's not going to be a congresswoman for long and she's not going to be the governor. And so she could get one of those kind of like children's sheriff badges, say bathroom sheriff on it. And, you know, that can replace her congressional pin. And she can walk around South Carolina monitoring bathrooms at Talbots for kids stores and youth baseball games and, I don't know, water parks might be a good job for Nancy Mace. The other funny thing about Nancy Mace is not just about the trans stuff. Nancy Mace ran the most ridiculous campaign imaginable. And there is this rule of thumb we've all been playing by, which is that the Republican primary voters want to vote for the craziest son of a bitch in the race. That was Thomas Massey's coinage. All great aphorisms, though, such as that have an exception that proves the rule. And it turns out that crazy Nancy Mace is the exception and approves the rule. She is too crazy even for the Republican primary voters. She ran on a campaign of blocking Sharia law from coming into South Carolina. It's like there are nine Muslims in South Carolina. Nobody was worried that Sharia law was going to be taking over the state. She offered, I think, probably the stupidest tax policy that I've ever heard, saying that only elderly People should not pay property taxes. This was a last ditch effort to win over the olds that vote in Republican primaries. It's like, you know, hey, if you're a recent college grad living in Charleston or Columbia and you know, you've had a couple of jobs, you've saved up enough money, you're going to buy your first home, a little starter home, you've got to pay property taxes. But the boomer who's watched their 401k go up 200% while they've, you know, had four weeks of vacation, they've got a pension, they're sitting on their ass, you know, out in their McMansion that only has three rooms that they use out of 12, that person doesn't have to pay property taxes. That was Nancy Mace's proposal. Honestly the stupidest, most insulting tax proposal I've ever heard. So there's that. So Sharia law. There's just her disgusting behavior, the nastiness with which she treated her colleagues, her willingness to just be totally shameless in sucking up to Donald Trump. She's been a scourge on the Congress and she would have been a scourge on the state of South Carolina, a state that I still do have some affinity for. And so she will not be the Palmetto Rose and the Governor's Mansion. We'll head to a runoff between Alan Wilson and Pamela Yvette. We'll keep an eye on that. But I just wanted to wish a Happy trails to Nancy Mace. You will not be missed. We hope you disappear into the ether of News Nation panels or, I don't know, going on swinger's boat cruises where you may or may not contract a virus that RFK stopped doing research into preventing. Godspeed to you, Nancy Mace. Very delicious. I am enjoying in your pain. And I did want to get that out of the way before I talked to the pastor at MLK's church shop. Next, it's Senator Raphael Warnock. Stick around. I don't know about you, but for me, if I'm excited about something, whether that be a POD interview, an article, I want to write a hot take I want to pop off. Like, for example, I just popped off a bonus hot take that you should go check out in the Bulwark takes feed on this insane New York Times article about a Situation Room meeting about the Epstein cover up. Absolutely. Got to go. Listen to that. If I'm excited like that, if I'm so excited I'm going to promote it in the middle of an ad read, it means I'M going to do a better job at it, you know, means the content's going to be better. If I'm half assing something, you know, like the laundry, it means you're going to get wrinkled shirts like I have on right now. And this is a lesson that you can apply to hiring. When you're hiring for your business, you need to figure out how to separate the candidates who are really excited about the opportunity from the ones that are like me. ZipRecruiter can help you do just that. ZipRecruiter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested qualified candidates first so you meet the right people faster. And now you can try it for [e-mail] Bulwark ZipRecruiter's new feature puts the most interested qualified candidates at the top of your list. ZipRecruiter's smart matching technology connects you with qualified candidates instantly. And candidates can tell you in their own words while why they're interested in your job. Use ZipRecruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com bulwark that ziprecruiter.com bulwark meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome to the show a Democratic senator from Georgia, senior pastor of Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta. He's got a new book coming out next week, the Crooked Places Made Reflections on the Moral Meaning of America. It's Raphael Warnock. How are you doing, Senator?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

I'm great. Good to see you. Great to be with you, man.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you. Welcome to the show. Been wanting to do this for a minute. We're going to do some God talk, some book talk at the end of the pod, maybe take me to church a little bit. But we got to do a little news first, if that's all right.

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[Tim Miller]

Yesterday, the president put out a post saying that he was actually moving up the timeline for Bill Pulte to be the Director of National Intelligence. Pulte obviously has no experience for this, no background. He was like a MAGA scam artist before taking over the housing group inside the administration where they were going after people based on their mortgages if they were foes of the president. What do you make of that? I mean, there's been a lot of pushback in the Senate against the president on this nomination. And not only is he not pulling back on Pulte, he's stepping on the gas, trying to move it up 11 days.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Yeah, I don't know what the President is thinking. Bull Pulte is a non starter, full stop. You know, as someone who represents the people of Georgia, Fulton County, I'm deeply troubled by the prospect of Bill Pulte having his hands on our national intelligence. You know, the Fulton County Board of Elections was raided by the Trump administration. It was an FBI raid. But for some, you know, the, the, the DNI was there. Tulsi Gabbard Pulte has already demonstrated that he's more than willing to lie, more than willing to engage in scandalous behavior, at best to try to besmirch the reputation of whoever Trump perceives to be his enemies. And so that should be deeply concerning for all Americans, because that's Democrats and Republicans. So I don't know what the President is thinking just in practical terms, in terms of his agenda. We are in the midst of debating the FISA legislation right now. That legislation cannot pass without some Democratic votes. And I don't see how he gets, how he has a shot with Polti being the fly and the ointment. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And I guess it seems to me that he cares more about having a hatchet man at DNI than he does about fisa, because this was really some of the biggest pushback we've seen from a bipartisan group of senators saying that they're not going to go forward with fisa. And his response to that was, okay, well, we're just going to put them in earlier.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Exactly. I looked at this appointment when it was announced a few days ago, and I said to myself, is there any part, any part of Donald Trump's job that he takes seriously? These are matters of national intelligence. The man is unqualified. He knows nothing about national intelligence. And, you know, apparently one of the qualifications for appointments to the Trump administration is that you have to be wholly unqualified. So that. That would be Pete Hexaf. That would be rfk. We could go on and on, but we're talking about national. We're talking about the nation's national security, and that's serious business. There are enemies that want to hurt us, who want to kill Americans. And, you know, the same problem that we face in a way with the CDC is what we're facing with this administration in this sense, that our national intelligence agencies, like the CDC often protect us from things that would harm us, that we Never see whether we're talking about bugs and viruses, CDC that's been attacked by this administration or our adversaries who would love to do us harm. And most Americans don't think about it every day because you don't get much credit for the things that others who are working and whose job it is to stay up at night worrying about these things are holding at bay. Now, let me be really clear. There are some issues with fisa, there's some reform that needs to be happening, and we need to be engaged in that debate right now in a fulsome way, because it's really about how do you balance security on the one hand and civil liberties on the other. And those are issues that I take very seriously. And I wish we were having a robust debate about that in the Senate right now and in the Congress rather than having to be aggravated and distracted by a ridiculous nomination of the likes of Bill Pote.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have a sense for what they're trying to do in Fulton County? Like, I mean, at this point, have you had any additional oversight or information? I mean, why was Tulsi there? Do you have a sense for what kind of shenanigans Bill Pulte could get up to, you know, with regards to the elections?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Donald Trump knows he can't win. He knows that the American people are not buying what he's selling as a candidate. He said he was going to keep us out of wars and lower our costs. He's done the exact opposite. Regardless of your politics, you got to acknowledge that what we're witnessing is the exact opposite. We are in yet another war in the Middle east with no apparent endgame, no clear objectives. This president has ordered more attacks on more nations than any president in modern American history. And meanwhile, Georgians are standing at the gas pump today wondering why is it costing so much of their income just to be able to get around in their cars and then to go to grocery stores where they can't afford the groceries? So, you know, what is he up to in Fulton County? What he's up to the same thing he's up to in the whole country. He's. He's trying to cast doubt on the coming election, which he knows he is on target to lose by continuing to besmirch an election that happened six years ago. Think about that. They went to Fulton county to smash windows, if you will, smash and grab ballots, ballots from 2020. Some of the folks who were elected in that election are no longer even in office, apparently. My election and John Ossoff's election and Joe Biden's election was a fraud. And on the same ballot, the members of the Georgia congressional delegation, most of whom are Republican, I guess there was no fraud in that part of the ballot and fraud on our, I mean, explain it to me. It doesn't make sense. Which is why he, you know, he stormed off the other day when a journalist on Meet the Press when Kirsten tried to challenge him on this issue. He's trying to muddy up the election and sow the seeds and seed the ground for the ways in which I think they're going to come for the democracy and come for the integrity of the elections if he doesn't get the outcome he wants in the fall.

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[Tim Miller]

Yeah, let's talk about the other ways they've been trying to muddy with the elections. And that was this mid decade redistricting fight that they kicked off that then culminates with the Calais ruling a little bit ago. Now we've seen changes in Louisiana, where I live, that canceled people's votes and are going to have a new election with new districts to get rid of one representative like the Cleo Fields in Tennessee they made changes so Memphis doesn't have representation In Alabama they made changes in Georgia where you're at. I Guess it's next week they're going to start their special session to look into a gerrymander for looking ahead to 2028. I wonder where your head is at now, today, now that like the dust has settled on this, on the best way to fight back against this effort to attain our elections from the White House and the Supreme Court.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Let's be really clear. The Kalay decision, what the Supreme Court did the other day is a devastating and deeply consequential blow to our entire election system. Donald Trump, to be sure, in a real sense, started this fire by calling into Texas and saying, I need five more seats. And that's how this episode, at least of gerrymandering began. And then the Supreme Court poured fuel on the fire. And as a result of that, we're seeing Louisiana, we're seeing other states, Alabama, in the, in the middle of elections, busy trying to jimmy rig the outcome of the election, trying to give politicians a louder voice than the voters during an election, literally turning our Democratic system on its head so that rather than the voters picking their representatives, politicians are busy trying to pick their voters. That's what gerrymandering is. I have a bill that would ban gerrymandering. I support what California did. I support what Virginia did. And because we can't, as Democrats, we can't afford to unilaterally disarm. I think we've got to not just win this election, we got to save our doggone democracy. And so in light of that, we can't unilaterally disarm. But, but I would support banning partisan gerrymandering altogether. I think the democracy would be much better off. I have a bill to do that. So far I've had no Republican takers. If folks are watching this and they don't like seeing this race to the bottom, we could end this tomorrow. But I've been speaking to my Republican friends. I actually said to the speaker of the House yesterday when he and I had a private meeting, hey, Mr. Speaker, why don't you join me in this anti gerrymandering bill? So far, no takers.

[Tim Miller]

No takers. I want to come back to that meeting in a second. I'm just wondering, though, okay, so they're not going to play by the rules. We know that they're trying to rig the system. They don't care. They'd be happy for there to be no majority minority districts in the South. This is not a vapor value to the Republicans at all. And so, okay, what are the tools at disposal? You mentioned California and Virginia fighting back. Another one is just galvanizing people, pushing back with people, power, turnout in the next election, trying to use this against them in places where there's a backlash, where people might tend to want to be more conservative, but they don't want to rip away all the black representation in the South. People don't want to go back to 1964 in the country. Some people don't. Where does the energy come from to change something before this midterm or as we look forward to 2028?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

No, we should be very clear. This is Jim Crow in new clothes. This is a move thanks to the Supreme Court, thanks to partisan politicians who are only focused in getting an advantage. They're busy trying to move the south. And it breaks my heart. I'm a child of the south, representing the South. They're trying to move us back to the darkest days in our country's history when there was no representation of black people, no black representation in Congress. And they're going after these districts. And when people ask me what the Supreme Court, let me just say what the Supreme Court did was deeply, intellectually dishonest. They basically said not only to folks in terms of congressional districts, but even local races that you can engage in gerrymandering, Just say that it's not about race. Just give us another explanation. And the onus is on the other folks who are petitioning to prove what's in your mind. And it's deeply dishonest because the racial lines and the partisan lines in the south, particularly, sadly, they're not the exact same lines. But there's a lot of continuity between those two things, for obvious reasons. When President Johnson passed a civil rights bill into law, he said, I'm sorry that I have probably signed the south over to the Republicans for a very long time. And sure enough, the Dixiecrats of old in the old Democratic Party went to the Republican Party, and there were a lot of Black Republicans, including Dr. King's own father, pastor of the church that I now lead. Daddy King became a Democrat. And so there's a history to this. And the idea that you can disaggregate race from partisanship in the south when race was at the center of the thing in the first place and continues to be, is deeply dishonored. So what we've got to do in this moment, because it's not just about black voters, it's really about our whole coalition, it's about this new multiracial, multi generational American electorate that they're trying to stop at the. At the corner. We're talking about women voters. They're still trying to pass the SAVE act, which would disproportionately hurt women. We're talking about Citizens United. That squeeze the voices of ordinary people out of their election, gives corporate entities an outsized voice in our politics. And we're seeing the direct result of that is more and more wealth is concentrated at the top in our country. And so this is really about saving the voices of ordinary people. Black people, brown voters, young people, poor working class people, women. It's about having representation that looks like America. And so part of what we got to do is we've got to beat back against those who would try to so demoralize us, who would try to weaponize despair in such a way that people don't even bother to show up and help voters to understand that you got to fight for your democracy now. You must show up more now than ever.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, let's talk about that despair. I mean, you mentioned the lbj. I pulled up the quote. It was, I think we just delivered the south to the Republican Party for a long time to come. I don't Even know if LBJ would have believed you if you said, yeah, 20, 26, I mean, 60 plus years later, not only did you deliver the south to the Republicans, but they're still trafficking in this same race based divisive politics in order to grab hold on the South. And I think that would have even surprised him. In your book, in the introduction, you wrote this. I find that I must labor assiduously just to beat back the shadows of despair lurking in my own heart. And I assume you wrote that before Kalei, since it takes a while for a book to come out and that's pretty striking. Labor assiduously to beat back the shadows of despair. I imagine a lot of our viewers and listeners can relate to that and like, go through times of despair. And you got to get up every day and actually work. And I'm just wondering for you to talk about, like, what that looks like. How are you laboring to beat that back?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Well, you know, we shouldn't sugarcoat it. This is a dark moment in our country. It really is. And we're fighting to hold on to the best in the American story, a story that I'm deeply committed to. I love my country. That's why I do this work. But we've been at this a long time, and it's ironic that as we approach the 250th birthday of the American grand experiment in democracy, we're fighting Just to hold on to that idea. And we literally have an administration that is at war with diversity, which is at the core of the American experiment. E pluribus unum. Out of many one, that's. That's who we are. We've had to fight to get there. And I. I have to tell you, as I move around, every now and then, I literally have people, some folks have pulled me out of a parade that I was walking in, and they're literally grabbing me by my lapel and say, please save us. Please save us. And what I say to those citizens is, I'm going to do everything I can to fight for you because, you know, I'm inspired by. By leaders, some of whom are still with us. You know, I live in Atlanta, so I walk among the giants of the civil rights movement. Andy Young is my friend and my mentor. John Lewis was my parishioner. I know that there are folks who came before us who didn't have any reason to believe that they could win. And so what I say to those citizens who say to me, please save us, I'm going to fight for you. But you don't get to outsource democracy. All of us have to fight. And the good news is that the tools, I do believe the tools in our democratic experiment, if we have citizens of courage who are willing to wield them, showing up to vote, protest, raising your voice, engaged in the system, that the way to fight this assault is to expand the margins of the democracy, even as they're trying to contract them. And this midterm election is an important moment in that struggle. But we can't wait until November. We gotta be engaged in the fight right now.

[Tim Miller]

Did you talk to those civil rights leaders that came before you about that personal quest, though, that personal challenge, like how you deal with lack of belief that things could get better? I mean, they all had to go through that, right? I assume they felt like that things weren't ever gonna get better.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Well, you know, right after the civil rights bill was passed into law, Dr. King and other members of his staff went to see President Johnson. Andy Young told me the story, and he said that they walked in the office and the president, of course, was ebullient and joyful that they had passed the civil rights bill in the law. And Dr. King said, great, we passed that bill and the law, wonderful. I need a voting rights law. Like, he didn't skip a beat. I need voting rights. My people cannot vote. And if you can't vote, you're not a citizen. Fifteenth amendment had passed, remember 100 years earlier. So folks who say, well, who's stopping you from voting? They just, you're ignoring our history. Black people had the right to vote on paper when the 15th Amendment was passed 100 years before the civil rights movement, but they couldn't vote. And so Dr. King said, My people can't vote. And the president began to say, well, I hear what you're saying, Dr. King, but I can't get that done right now. I don't have the power to do it. They left the meeting and the staff was feeling demoralized and feeling dejected. And they said, Dr. King, what are we going to do? The President of the United States said that he doesn't have the power right now, doesn't have the power to get us the franchise. And Dr. King looked at them and he said, well, if the President doesn't have to. Doesn't have the power, I guess we're going to have to go to the south and get himself here. He is an ordinary citizen. What do you think about that? Nordair citizen? He doesn't hold an office. He's not a United States senator. He's the pastor of a little church on Auburn Avenue. And he said, if the President, the most powerful man on the planet, doesn't have the power to get us our votes, we're going to go and get him some. And so when you see John Lewis and Hosea Williams crossing that Edmund Pettus Bridge with brute force under the color of law on the other side, and they keep on walking, they're literally answering President Johnson's question. They're going to get the president's in power to create the context for the change that they want to see in the world. And I'm sitting here as a result of that. And so there are moments when I do have to push back against despair, but I refuse to give in to those who. Who are trying to weaponize despair. The way you respond is you keep walking.

[Tim Miller]

Thing that I worry about, and I recognize this as a white guy podcaster, this kind of is an unfair question to put it on black folks to have to fight for their own rights again after all this time. But you look at it and it just the reality of our political situation where some have succumbed to despair. And you look at the 2024 election, and turnout was higher. Obviously Trump's based among white voters, black men, younger black men in particular voted at a higher rate for Trump than they had in the past. And so now we're in the middle of the civil rights fight. And it's like, how do you engage with those voters that the Democrats lost? And Jon Favreau, you were on Pod Save America. He asked you about this question. I thought it was interesting that the first thing that you said was, like, talking to young black men. You basically just said that fighting against sexism and for women's rights doesn't mean that you're not fighting for young men. Right. Like, you can do both. And the fact that you started with that made me wonder if, like, you think that that is part of the problem where basically younger black men don't feel like the Democrats care about them and are fighting for them. Is that a challenge, you think, in trying to get people back motivated, or is there something else?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

I think that you have to meet voters where they are and talk directly to them in language that they can see themselves in the conversation. You know, I still return to my pulpit every Sunday morning. I pastor Ebenezer Church, and back in days when I had more time, I used to teach midweek Bible study. I was holding Bible studies and car washes around the corner from the church. I was creating barbershop, a barbershop at my church and inviting men to come. And then we'd have conversations there in places that they frequent. But then people have to see themselves in the conversation. And I just think that where black men are concerned, where ordinary, just not just black men, young men, voters in general, ordinary people. I think sometimes people around the Beltway get caught up in a kind of vocabulary and way of talking, which is why I go to my pulpit every Sunday and go back to my community. Because you can. You can, you know, your. Your intention. I think our policies are good. I think our policies are certainly better than the other side. But men who are just trying to figure out, how am I going to be able to afford my life, how am I going to take care of my children? Black men want what. What other people want. What's the path to a prosperous life where I can just not get by but thrive and my family can do well and I can have the dignity that comes with work and work that pays a livable wage and allows me to retire with dignity and be able to go to the doctor or send my kid to the doctor when they need to go to the doctor? I think in some ways, our party has become so captive to corporate interests that people need to see us putting forward more, I think, bolder plans around these issues, and they need to hear us fighting for them. And we need to be talking to the people we purport to represent. Which is why I return to my community every week. You know, in the black church, the preacher is just talking his call and response. They talk back to me. And it's in that give and take that I figure out what I ought to be saying and what I ought to be doing.

[Tim Miller]

It's good. At the start of the book, you learned me something about how that works in the black church. It's essentially if they agree, it's an amen if you don't agree. But I'm sticking with you. It's a Lord help me. And I'm a little bit. Lord help me on that answer, actually. And I want to talk to you about why, because I feel like you're at the middle of this of like these two groups that like Democrats are struggling with. Right. Like I just mentioned the younger black men, but also people of faith like Democrats have lost ground with religious voters. And sometimes you said that you think the policies are right. I'm not going to argue with that. I think the problem is that the

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Democrats, they're not bold enough, focused, they're not big enough.

[Tim Miller]

Well, yeah, okay, maybe that's part of it or maybe they're just talking too much about the policy papers. I don't know. I think that if you went to that car wash or that barbershop or you talked to religious voters in another part of Atlanta, white religious voters, I think that they would say that the Democrats don't care about them. The Democrats care about college educated elite woke whatever nonsense and like they care about language policing and that they don't care about their concerns. I think that's what they would say. Right. The Democrats kind of look down on them and are dismissive of their beliefs or concerns. And I think that's the problem. And I wonder how you fix that and what the way is to make those folks feel heard.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

I see no evidence at all that Donald Trump cares about those people. I think the voters are going to get another chance to think about that this November as they are seeing their groceries skyrocket is they're seeing him lay upon all of us, burden all of us with the most regressive tax policy we have seen in my lifetime rather than having wealthy corporations and wealthy people pay their fair share. He's taxing everybody. This is the biggest tax burden. I mean that, I mean you talk about, they want to, you want to call Democrats tax and spend. He's taxing everybody on everything. So I don't see any evidence that he cares about those people. He's Doing a really good job of looking out for family, his own family. They're richer than they've ever been. So people have a chance to look at that. That said, now that I'm in the Senate and I'm a part of this crazy thing that we do in D.C. hopefully on behalf of ordinary people, you do get a win every now and then. I now know more than I did as an activist that, yeah, Washington, D.C. is too captive to interests. Big money, big corporations. And in the midst lobbyists, and in the midst of all of that, the voices of ordinary people get squeezed out of their democracy. Which is why the first two chapters of my book, the Crooked Places Made Straight, are about voting rights and about dark money. Dark money in our politics. I'm proud of the fact that because I won, because I won, when I came to the Senate, we were able to pass a law that allowed Medicare for the first time to negotiate with Big Pharma the price of prescription drugs. Now I want you to think about that. First of all, the fact that we had to pass a law so that Medicare could even negotiate tells you everything you need to know about the outsized impact of these corporate interests. Big pharma, Big oil, you name it, right? We had to pass a law for you to be able to do what you ought to be able to do in any capitalist society. If somebody's trying to sell me something, ought to be able to argue with them and haggle over the price. And literally it was illegal to do so. I think most voters might be surprised to hear that. But then we passed a law to do it and it applied initially to 10 drugs. That's it, 10 drugs. And it took four years for that to be put into place. If we're honest, that says that politicians on both sides of the aisle are having to make certain kinds of concessions with big money because our system is awash in money and people feel that they're not wrong. The poor white people in Louisiana, they rightly see that there's a disconnect between where they live and the conversation. Poor black folk growing up in rural parts of Georgia, same thing. And somehow we got to get back to a politics that centers ordinary people.

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[Tim Miller]

I also do think that some religious people feel like the Democrats look down on them. And I think back a conversation I had with a young guy who's a Latino guy. He was on the show Jubilee. I don't know if you see that, where somebody says, I did this. You sit in the middle and then you have 20 people yell at you. You seen somebody do that? I think Wes Moore is doing it coming popular show with the youth. It's like an arguing show. And one of the young MAGA guys said, basically, I'm paraphrasing, but he said he thinks that the Democrats mock God. And he says, you go to a Trump event and there's a prayer beforehand and you go to a Kamala event and you have Megan thee stallion twerking before that. And obviously this is not fair and crazy and Donald Trump's a false prophet. But the perception is real. I think the perception exists. And I wonder if, if you sense that that's a problem, if there's something that the Democrats can do to talk to those folks better that have that perception. I wonder how you would react or how you talk to somebody who said that to you.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Look, I'm a pastor, I'm a Christian, and my faith is what drove me into this work. And the issues that you hear me talking about, health care, dealing with poverty, these are things that I talked about from my pulpit long before I entered a race for the Senate. I would ask those voters, you know, the scripture says everyone who cries Lord, Lord doesn't mean that they're going to enter in. And Donald Trump is many things a man of faith. He certainly is not. I think he mocks God. I think Donald Trump in the secret moments, went behind closed doors, laughs at religious people.

[Tim Miller]

Definitely.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

He's deeply cynical. He doesn't believe in anything other than himself, in his own self aggrandizement and his self enrichment. And if religion gets in the way of that, he and J.D. vance, the newly converted Catholic who recently said that the Pope ought to be careful about how he's talking about theology. They'll throw the Pope, the faith and everything else under the bus if it gets in the way of their politics. I think Democrats should not be shy in owning their faith. There's a way to live in your faith and talk about it that does not force that upon others in the public square. So part of, part of what it means to be for me to be a person of faith is to recognize that I live in my faith and under the law and that this grand experiment we have again as we approach the 250th anniversary is that we are a diverse, multifaceted democratic republic that creates space for people to live in their faith, various faith traditions. I think I owe it to the covenant we have with one another to speak up every time Islam is condemned and Muslims are condemned just for being Muslims and to stand up for my Jewish sisters and brothers and for those who claim no faith tradition at all. And I think sometimes Democrats are so squeamish in thinking about the separation of church and state, which I believe in nobody. I don't want to live in a theocracy that they're afraid to talk about it at all. Here's how my faith lives in my work. It's really. It's not my creeds when I come to this office to do this work. It's not my creeds that I bring to the, to the, to the work. It's my values. Love, justice, making, truth telling, empathy, centering the poor. And guess what? Those are values that are resonant in all of the great faith traditions and people of moral courage who claim no faith at all. And the covenant we have with one another is that we ought to be able to engage in that conversation a respectful way and hopefully create something that I think looks like the kingdom of God, a country that's big enough to embrace all of our children.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with all of that. 98% of the time, I think 2% of the time we can be disrespectful. And I might give you a chance to do that right now. You mentioned JD he managed to find two new religions at the same time. He became a Catholic, right as he was taking on Donald Trump as his personal savior, which is kind of a miracle. Amen. No attention to Lord, help me. Yeah, it isn't. The timing is interesting. I thought. I was just wondering if you had any observations about that and about our vice President's faith journey.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

J.D. vance is perhaps the most craven politician in the American landscape. We've seen a lot of folks, you know, doing about face on Donald Trump, but with him, it's striking. Here's a man who called Donald Trump America's Hitler, and then he spent a lot of time a few years later literally campaigning not just for a Senate seat, but campaigning to an audience of one to become his running mate. And he's just deeply craven. And it's hard to know really what his moral center is and what is he driven by. In some ways, he's scarier than Donald Trump. I think it's interesting. He's on a tour, you know, talking about his faith. You know, I have to take you at your word. You know, you say you're a person of faith, but I'm going to hold you accountable to that. When the Pope began to speak in a way that Pope speak and said, hey, you know, what about peace, fighting for peace. And he gets scolded by one of the newest converts to Catholic faith. And he tells the Pope, be careful. You're talking about theology, as if the Pope is out of his lane talking about theology. And here's what we know. If what the Pope was saying was consistent with what J.D. vance wanted to do politically, he'd have no problem with it at all. It's just that he found the Pope's words to be inconvenient, which is often the case. Profits and prophetic speech often makes politicians concern and creates inconveniences for the agenda that they want to put forward. Especially if it's an agenda that's focused on war, not peace, an agenda focused on enriching the folks who are already rich and are centering the most marginalized members of the human family.

[Tim Miller]

It is just fun. I mean, the timing is just ridiculous. We can laugh at it. Look, I have Catholic converts in my family. I'm a cradle Catholic. We've had some married into the family, did the conversion journey. That's. I'm for it. I recognize that some people decide that they have to suck up to Donald Trump to get power. The Republican Party, I understand it doing both. At the same time, though. It's like, wait a minute, it doesn't really compute.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Well, the problem is he has two popes. Yeah, the one in Rome and the one in Rome.

[Tim Miller]

I think Pope Leo's the subservient one, unfortunately, is the problem for the Catholic Church. My fellow Louisianan, Mike Johnson, you mentioned you had a meeting with him yesterday. I want to hear about that. But for people who missed the story, I'll give them background. A big thing that you write about in this book and yet another book we covered the same kind of turf is this question of in faith. As a faith leader, there are ways that you could focus on personal piety, and then there are ways you can focus on systemic injustice. And faith leaders should look at both, not have just one. And you're kind of criticizing a lot of conservative faith leaders who focus entirely on personal piety, but not at all about the broader injustices in the world. And within that context, you criticize Mike Johnson, York Times interview where he said, I don't understand how you read the big beautiful bill, say a long prayer, hold hands with your fellow legislators, and then cut a trillion dollars out of Medicaid.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

That's right.

[Tim Miller]

He said it's performative. Mike Johnson got his feelings hurt when you said that. And you guys had a meeting yesterday, so I'm just kind of wondering how that shook out.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Well, you know, he apparently saw what I said in the New York Times before I did, and I got in the office, my staff said that the speaker had asked could he meet with me. And, you know, I was sure. I'll meet with him every Sunday morning after the sermon is preached. We Baptists say something. We say the doors of the church are open and we invite those who want to come to Jesus, those who want to make a decision based on the sermon that had been preached. So I was glad that that got his attention. I was happy to talk to him about it. But let me be really clear. This is not about Mike Johnson and it's not about Raphael Warnock. This is about the people we represent. And the people in his own district is emblematic of the work that we must do. There are people in his own district, children. About 47,000 fewer children are signed up for Medicaid in his own state as a result of their actions. They're literally taking the food out of the mouths of hungry children with these draconian cuts to snap that have disproportionately hurt rural red districts. And so I was speaking to him as a Christian brother. He wasn't the focus of that conversation. It came up and I'm going to continue to hold all of us accountable. You know, Dr. King kept saying this line that kept appearing in his letter from a Birmingham jail. He kept saying, I'm so disappointed in the church. He said, as I travel through the south and I see its massive churches and its spires pointing heavenward, I asked myself what kind of people worship there and who is their God? In other words, he was pointing out the disconnect between the creeds and the deeds. And if we are indeed people of faith, then poor people ought to be centered. Working class people, children certainly ought to be centered in our public policy. And I will continue to hold all of us accountable on both sides of the aisle.

[Tim Miller]

Had you met Mike Johnson before that yesterday? You like actually, I mean, obviously you met him, met him, you ever like talked to him?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

We had never had a real sit down conversation until yesterday.

[Tim Miller]

Were your concerns that he's performative assuaged at all in the private conversation?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Listen, he asked me to come and talk to him. I had a conversation with him. Christian brother to Christian brother. Look, I'm a pastor and so I'm going to try to maintain the integrity of that. We exchange phone numbers. But I'm really clear eyed about his policies. Cutting a trillion dollars out of Medicaid is the antithesis of the Christian faith. I stand by that. I said it to the New York Times and I said it to him directly.

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[Tim Miller]

I want to ask you about the other side of the coin of this question, between finding balance and advocating between personal piety and systemic injustice and systemic change and caring about people at a broad level. I think that probably some on the right would say that maybe not you in particular, but that liberal Christians don't care enough about the personal piety side of things like that. Their criticism of you would just be the inverse of what you say about them. We have this conversation right now happening around. Graham Platner is running for Senate, or maybe it be Bill Clinton in the 90s and say that the Democrats are happy to look askance at people who have personal peccadilloes, who are sinful in their personal life as long as they advance their political ideology. And I'm just kind of wondering how you think about that question. And like, like, personal piety has to matter at some level. And are there any red lines that you would see for, you know, somebody being in public life when it comes to, you know, issues in their personal life?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Character matters. I was raised by two wonderful parents who instilled that in me. And so I try to live my life and carry out my life in a certain kind of way that's consistent with my faith claims as a preacher on Sunday morning. But we're all flawed human beings. All of us at best are sinners, saved by grace. But character does matter. And I do think, and I have to say to, you know, to my Christian sisters and brothers on the right, lovingly, that I do think they're on pretty shaky ground right about now because there were moments when there were many of us who were frustrated with them. And we would say, hey, don't you care about what's happening to poor people? Don't you care about state mass incarceration in the land of the free? Don't you care about people having access to health care? And they would say, no, what matters is personal ethics. And much of that centered around sex and sexuality. And they would frustrate us. We were like, well, the gospel is talking about some things other than that. And then Donald Trump comes along.

[Tim Miller]

Sure, okay, Senator, I hear you. They're hypocrites. We agree. You're on the chief podcast of Trump's

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

arrangements, boasting about Raping women. I mean, this is serious stuff. And molesting women.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. No, it's racist.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

In his own voice, he saw our. And multiple divorces and now literally burning and looting and stealing from our country on camera. And I just have to wonder, the things that they said they cared about, do they care about those either? Because I'm not so sure right about now.

[Tim Miller]

I can answer that. They don't. But we still have to have standards. Right? And I just, I kind of wonder just kind of how you think about that. And obviously, this is coming right up right now in the case of Platner, who's obviously who. The accusations against him are nothing even in the remotely in the same universe as Trump. But still, I just wonder how you think about the question of holding yourself to your own standards and integrity when it comes to these sorts of questions.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

No, let me be very clear. Character matters. And again, there are no perfect human beings, but integrity matters. Character matters. And I think that Mr. Platner, whom I have not met and I do not know, has some very serious accusations. I take these women seriously. And I think that the people of Maine, the voters of Maine, deserve an answer from him about these things, full stop.

[Tim Miller]

It's that and it's balance, you know, it's like you have to answer that. But also the systemic stuff matters, you know, and that. And that's where Planner's been really good. Right? That's why he's resonating with people, because he' talking about all that, you know, in a way that people care about. I interviewed Talarico about a month or two ago now. He cited you kind of as a mentor and a model, as somebody who's a Christian, you know, leader in the Democratic Party. I'm wondering if you've any. If you've been watching his campaign, if you have any thoughts, you had a chance to talk to him about, you know, whether he can kind of follow in your footsteps and into the Senate.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Yes, we've talked a couple of times. He reached out to me when he started his campaign and came to D.C. and sat down, met with me. He's doing great, and it's good to see someone else out there in a very clear way living out his faith. Speaking about it in relationship to issues of public policy is deeply refreshing. I think he, like me, seeks to live that out in a way that is hospitable to other faith traditions. Like there's no contradiction between me honoring that other people have other ways to the center part of what it means to be a Christian, it seems to me, is for me to stand up for folks who are coming from a different point of view and creating space for them to. And their humanity.

[Tim Miller]

We're going to do a dorm room podcast. Question, is that all right? Can we pretend like we're in the freshman dorm for a second? It's a little bit dorm room adjacent.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Sounds like fun.

[Tim Miller]

All right. Do you ever have doubts?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

About your faith?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Oh, absolutely.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have any doubts about whether it's all real? You know, and, and how do you, how do you think about that?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

No, I, I think people who say they don't have any doubts have not thought seriously enough about it. They haven't gone deep enough. I don't think the doubt, and I'm saying this as I engage with the scripture, doubt is not the opposite of faith. Doubt is an element in faith. And if you're looking at the contradictions in our world, the fact that we're here again dealing with Donald Trump again, I got some questions for God. I got some questions for us, too. I mean, we had a whole lot to do with that, but I got some questions for God, like, how are we?

[Tim Miller]

Amen.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

How are we here again? You know, why, why, why do people, you know, who, who are the salt of their suffering and folks who don't care about their neighbor and who do not fear God seem to be doing just fine? All of the great heroes of the faith, the spiritual geniuses, the, the people we lift up in scripture, raise those questions. People talk about Job being the, you know, a paragon of patience. When, when people talk to me about the patience of Job, here's what I know. They've never read the book. He is the supreme protester who said, you know, you, you, you are a God who hides yourself. Show yourself so that we might argue it out. So, yeah, not only do I have doubts, from time to time, sometimes I argue with God and I think that's what it means to have an authentic relationship.

[Tim Miller]

My daughter is 8, and this weekend she asked me whether God was real. And I've got more doubts than you and I found. And we were going back and forth, I was talking to her about it, and she gives like an 8 year old's version of Pascal's Wager to me, kind of where she's just like, well, if you believe in God, you're going to get the good stuff, and if you don't believe in God, then you won't. So I found myself doing Pascal's wager with my 8 year old, and I don't know, like how you have kids, you have a nine year old and a seven year old. Like, that's cool. How do you talk to them about that? How do you talk to them about that?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

I mean, I talk to them, but I. First of all, I just try to model the life that I want them to live. And I try to model kindness and love and I teach them to respect their neighbor and. And they, they. They learn about the faith. They're sitting there listening to their dad preached. They're not impressed. It's in those quiet moments when I'm sitting with my daughter and my son, as my parents did with me right before bedtime when I read this. You know the stories of our faith to them, and we pray together and. And you hope that, that in the midst of that, they get it, they catch it. I think, I think they're more likely to catch it than me giving it to them. And so I try to live my life in a way that they catch what gives their dad hope, even in a dark moment like this.

[Tim Miller]

All right, here's my rapid fire closers. Okay, Are you ready? Jon Ossoff, your colleague, I asked him to tell me his favorite curse word and what his workout routine was for his guns. He would not tell me either. Now you're a pastor. I don't know if you're allowed to have a favorite curse word, but I'm giving you a chance to answer either of those questions. Favorite curse word or work workout routine?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Tim Miller, you are really asking the preacher?

[Tim Miller]

I am. His favorite favorite curse word?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Curse word.

[Tim Miller]

We're all sinners, baby. You said it, Pastor. We're all sinners.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

We are. But I don't have a favorite.

[Tim Miller]

You don't have a favorite? Well, you're working out.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Notice I didn't say that. One doesn't ever slip out. I said I don't have a favorite one. Okay, so I'm a sinner, saved by grace, Trying to get it right.

[Tim Miller]

How about that workout routine, though? You're working out?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Yeah, off and on again. Struggling, trying to get there. The Peachtree Road Race is coming up. I've been doing that every year, and it's a 10k and so I enjoy doing that. And I work out at the gym. I try to stay healthy. I like to ride my bike. That's my favorite thing.

[Tim Miller]

We take people out with a song. I read a sermon of yours from February where you're riffing on samples, speaking about a song that has some words that you're not allowed to say as a Pastor, you're talking about Ti And I don't know, I was hoping maybe, given that you're. This is, you know, obvious, obviously, based on that sermon, you're somebody that you know is up to speed on music, likes, music cares. Let them know. What do you want to take us out with? Is that. Should I take people out with. I always take people out with a song that is relevant to the episode. Is that the one? Should we take them out with that or you got another recommendation?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

I like that one, but you have to bleep the whole thing.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, how about you got a better one then you got one that the kids can listen to in the car?

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

I don't know. I mean, I'm old school. I love Earth, Wind and Fire. Anything from Earth, Wind and Fire will do.

[Tim Miller]

We'll send you out with my favorite Earth, Wind and Fire song. There's some Denver people on Earth, Wind and Fire. Rafael Warnock. Thank you for the time, Senator Warnock. Always appreciate you. Keep on fighting. We'll talk to you soon. All right, brother.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Keep the faith. All right.

[Tim Miller]

I just wanted more and more. Without Raphael Warnock, I could have done another hour. And, you know, unfortunately he had some Senator Ing to do. So we appreciate him for all the time. This morning. We've got a couple of our faves to close out the week on Thursday and Friday, so get excited for that. We'll see you all then. Also, see you later to Nancy Mace. One more time. Bye. Bye, girl.

[Senator Raphael Warnock]

Maybe if we learn.

[Tim Miller]

The Borg podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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