Danielle Crittenden on Losing Her Daughter

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bulwark - "Danielle Crittenden on Losing Her Daughter"
Date: May 23, 2026
Host: Mona Charon
Guest: Danielle Crittenden Frum

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal episode, Mona Charon interviews her long-time friend, journalist and author Danielle Crittenden Frum, about the sudden loss of Danielle’s daughter, Miranda, and Danielle’s new book, Dispatches from Grief: A Mother’s Journey through the Unthinkable. The conversation is raw and unfiltered, delving into the surreal aftermath of losing a child, the experience of grief, interactions with others, rituals of mourning, and the unique complications of digital legacies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shock of Sudden Loss

• Danielle recounts the unexpected loss of her 32-year-old daughter, Miranda, who died suddenly from complications related to a rare, non-malignant brain tumor first discovered seven years prior.
  • Quote:
    “Within hours and days, you're suddenly having to make these decisions that are just surreal.”
    — Danielle (00:00)
• Danielle describes the immediate period as entering “an alternative universe” where everything looks the same, but nothing is.
  • Quote:
    “Although I look the same, I am completely different.”
    — Danielle (09:18)

2. Miranda’s Life and Illness

• Miranda was a vibrant young woman working in media, managing social media for celebrities, and living independently in Brooklyn. ([05:19] - [07:16])

• The diagnosis of her rare, dangerous, but non-malignant brain tumor was a major life disruption.

  • Only three of this type had been seen since the 1950s.
  • Surgery was high-risk due to the tumor's vascular nature; it destroyed her pituitary gland, necessitating lifelong medication.

• Danielle:

  • “Of course you would have an original tumor.” ([06:54])
  • The potentially fatal side effect of medication imbalance was never clearly communicated by doctors.

3. The Aftermath & Surreal Duties

• Danielle describes the shift from everyday life to sudden grief, making funeral arrangements for a young, vibrant daughter.
  • Quote:
    “Three days before she died...she sent me a selfie. And I said, ‘You look beautiful. Send me a full shot when you have one.’ And she said, ‘I'll try.’ And that was the last text I had.” ([10:28])
• Immediate, practical decisions (funeral, burial) felt bizarre and unbearable:
  • “Within hours and days, you're suddenly having to make these decisions that are just surreal.” ([00:00], [10:55])

4. Grieving Within Society – What People Say

• People often say unintentionally hurtful things (“she’s in a better place”) trying to comfort, which can be alienating:
  • Quote:
    “What you want is for people to lean into your grief and just say... ‘Yeah, this really sucks. This is horrible. I'm so sorry. Can I get you another glass of scotch?’” ([13:45])
• The need for genuine presence and support from friends, not platitudes.
• Danielle credits friends like Mona for “just listening and listening and listening,” and emphasizes the importance of simply showing up during grief. ([14:39])
• Notes that many in this “alternative universe” of grief are left isolated.

5. The Jewish Rituals of Mourning (Shiva)

• Danielle, a convert to Judaism, finds profound wisdom in Jewish mourning rituals:

  • Shiva: Seven days of communal grieving at home, with friends and food, is emotionally sustaining and keeps mourners surrounded when company is most needed ([16:07]–[17:45]).

  • Burial: Swift, honest confrontation with death, without avoidance or delay ([18:24]).

  • Year of Grief: Jewish tradition provides a full year before headstone unveiling—a merciful allowance for prolonged mourning ([19:01]).

  • Quote:
    “That ritual understood that for the first week you needed to be with people. And you shouldn't have to feed yourself. You shouldn't have to honestly get out of your chair. Things are brought to you.” ([17:07])

  • Quote:
    “You have to face it. There's no getting away from it.” ([18:58])

6. The New Challenges of Grieving in the Digital Age

• The digital remains of a loved one are like “emotional IEDs”—unexpected photos, memories, and emails that resurface suddenly through technology ([20:51]).

• Lack of access to Miranda's digital accounts (phone, email, etc.) compounded the grief and left much of her daughter's life “locked” due to passwords and tech company policies. Legal steps were needed to retrieve even limited content:

  • Quote:
    “We never got access to her phone and I don't think we ever got access to Google. So people have written me and said, you know, I know this hacker and...I'm thinking of going that route.” ([23:42])

• Advice to listeners:

  • “Get your loved one's passwords. Put them in a file, let people know where it is, and if you have a will, put it with your will. It's so critical.” ([24:03])

7. What (Sometimes) Helps – Therapy and Time

• Danielle describes the yearning for relief from pain and the difficulties accessing grief therapy, even when desperately needed ([25:12]).

  • National centers told her new patient wait times were 18 months.
  • She was shocked to reach the point of suicidal ideation, driven purely by overwhelming pain, despite having a supportive family.

• The turning point was discovering EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy:

  • EMDR helps the brain “file” traumatic memories that remain ever-present and overwhelming.
  • Quote:
    “The only way to get a song out of your head is to listen to it all the way through. The same is true with trauma.” ([28:39])

• Emphasizes that while nothing can take away the pain, finding the right therapy, support networks, and rituals can help survivors endure and begin to heal.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Although I look the same, I am completely different.” — Danielle (09:18)
• “This is horrible. I'm so sorry. Can I get you another glass of scotch?” — Danielle (13:45)
• “That ritual understood that for the first week you needed to be with people.” — Danielle (17:07)
• “It's a whole other world now of possessions that we have to be self conscious of.” — Danielle (24:46)
• “The only way to get a song out of your head is to listen to it all the way through. The same is true with trauma.” — Danielle (28:39)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–04:53 — Introduction, origins of grief, Danielle & Mona’s connection
• 06:29–09:09 — Miranda’s life, diagnosis, sudden death
• 09:18–11:28 — Entering the “alternative universe” of grief
• 12:05–13:45 — Being on the receiving end of well-meaning but unhelpful comfort
• 15:47–19:01 — Jewish mourning rituals and their psychological wisdom
• 20:17–24:46 — Challenges of digital legacies and the struggle to access loved ones’ digital lives
• 25:12–29:08 — Difficulty accessing therapy; EMDR as a breakthrough in processing trauma

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Tone and Language

The conversation is intimate, unguarded, and courageous, with both women reflecting honestly on pain, mortality, and the challenge of moving forward after a profound loss. The episode blends sorrow with moments of dark humor and practical advice, modeling how to talk about grief with candor and compassion.

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Conclusion

This episode stands out for its honesty, emotional depth, and practical clarity about the realities of grief—especially the wrenching pain of losing a child. Danielle’s story, insights, and hard-won advice will resonate with anyone navigating loss, and Mona’s empathy and friendship provide a model for supporting loved ones in mourning. Both the content and the conversation highlight the importance of rituals, supportive presence, and honest dialogue in surviving the unthinkable.

Transcript

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Within hours and days, you're suddenly having to make these decisions that are just surreal.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah, making funeral arrangements for a gal you thought you would be planning a wedding for. You know, it is staggering. Hi everyone. You are about to hear a deeply personal conversation with a dear friend of mine who is working her way through grief and has written a really powerful book about it. But before we get to that, I have another book note to share with you if you haven't picked up on it yet. I am a reader. I read constantly and I know a lot of you do as well. And I love hearing from you. So we decided to start a Bulwark Book Club. About once a month. I'll pick a book. We'll have a few weeks to read it and then we'll talk about it. Sometimes we'll have the author on, sometimes we may dig in with another guest or two. We may even feature the occasional movie as we did the other week with A Man for All Seasons. The main thing is this is going to be interactive. I'm excited to hear from you and the rest of the Bulwark community. So my first pick. It is a new book called if I Don't A Father's Wartime Journal. You may know the wonderful author, my Bulwark colleague, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He started writing years ago, never imagining it would become a book. The writing began with letters to his young sons as he faced one of the biggest challenges of his military career. So please pick up if I don't return at the library or at your favorite bookseller and then start telling us what you think. Any thoughts, questions? We want to hear all of it. You can do that in the comments section of the Mona Charon Book Club announcement on Substack. It's linked in the show notes for today's show and also pinned to the Mona Charon show page on thebullwerk.com Please get your comments in by Friday, June 5th. I may read some during our discussion with Mark. That will be a members first chat on Monday, June 8th at 7pm Eastern. Say that again Monday, June 8th at 7:00pm Eastern and then we'll publish it as usual if you can't make it that night. Again, all of this is@the bulwark.com can't wait to read and interact with you all Right now on to today's episode. Welcome to the Mona Charon Show. So glad you could join me today. I am going to be honest, this is not a typical sort of arm's length interview. Today I am speaking speaking with my Dear friend, Danielle Crittenden Frum, who experienced a real tragedy in her life and has been able to turn it into really a gem of a book. And that book I have here, it's called Dispatches from Grief, A Mother's Journey through the Unthinkable. Danielle, thank you so much for being here.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Thank you for having me. Mona, you grew up with our daughter Miranda. Our children, I should say, grew up together pretty much.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah. It is. You know, when this happened, it was just such a thunderbolt, such a, you know, terrible bomb going off. And, you know, of course we were at a distance, but I felt it, as I said at the funeral, I sort of felt referred pain. You know, as they say in medicine, you know, it may not be be your hip, but it's your friends and whatever. It's a bad image. But, but let's, let's. For people who don't know what happened, I'd like to just tell the story. By the way, has this been hard for you, all these interviews? Is it?

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Weirdly, I've been able. I've had a lot of trepidation about doing them because it's one thing to publish a book like this.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

And then go talk about it over and over. So, you know, I say, yes, Miranda died, you know, two years ago, several times a day. And yeah, I've learned now to compartmentalize it a little bit. So there's my private grief and then the public face. But, you know, at the end of the day, it kind. I kind of dropped down exhausted. But, yes, but I am able to talk about it and you should feel free to ask me anything because the frankness of the book about experiencing the loss of your child and is important to be able to talk about. So don't hesitate.

[Mona Charon]

It is so raw, it is so true. It is so beautifully done. I really cannot. I can't believe you were able to produce this book at all. And far less under the circumstances. It is. It's an amazing thing. And I think maybe a superpower of yours is just your unbelievable honesty and willing willingness to just do it.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Just sometimes it's not a superpower. Mona, do you know?

[Mona Charon]

All right, okay, so let's. For people, let's go back. So what was it? It was seven years before. So seven years ago that Miranda found out about the brain tumor. Right, right. Okay. So she's this gorgeous mid-20s gal. She has done all kinds of things. She's been a model, she's been journalist. At one point she was doing social media for celebrities where she had control of their Twitter feeds. And I remember her saying at one point that one of these people that she was working for, and this was in the height of, you know, when everything was so sensitive and you could get a dogpile for saying the slightest wrong thing on Twitter. Right. And one of them was not so nice to her. And she said, do they not realize that in the. With a flick of my wrist, I could ruin their career?

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

It's so true. It's so true. Yeah, she managed there. Or she could post an awful photo of them on the Instagram. You know, it was. It was funny.

[Mona Charon]

But anyway, so. So she's. She's living her best life, and then she suddenly says that she is having some physical problems and she started seeing some white, like floaters or something. What was it?

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Spots.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah. And so that, you know, you look into it, and it turns out that she has a brain tumor. Right. So then what?

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Well, it. It happened just over when she was visiting for Thanksgiving. She was diagnosed with a rare but non malignant tumor. And I mean, it was so rare that only three of them had been seen since the 1950s. And I did say to her, you know, of course you would have an original tumor.

[Mona Charon]

In the world of medicine, you don't want to have something rare.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

No. And we had to find the right surgeon, because what made it rare, it was very vascular. And if it was to remove it was like medically diffusing a bomb, because at any moment she could suffer a hemorrhage if it wasn't just carefully removed. But it did destroy her pituitary gland, and for that you can take medication. And she came out fine. It was a very successful surgery. And the surgeons and her doctors said, well, look, you can live a totally normal life. You just will be taking some replacement hormones and medications and go on, live your life. And so she did, and what her endocrinologists and she was very dutiful about her health. What her endocrinologist did not tell her is if you get the cocktail wrong, because, as you know, there are always side effects to medication. So you want to kind of balance it so your mood, your weight, all those things. And they didn't tell her that, well, if you get it wrong, you know, there is a chance you could just drop dead. And. And that's what she did. Do you think they knew that?

[Mona Charon]

Or maybe they didn't know. Did they know that?

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

I know her endocrinologist was saying she was a little low on one of her meds and was saying she should up It. But there was never any kind of suggestion that this could be fatal. And so in the middle of the night, February 16, 2024, she collapsed and died. And in her bedroom. She lived at that time by then in Brooklyn. And. And then we got that. The call the next day.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah. And so you say you entered another country.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Yeah, I called it the alternative universe. That you're suddenly everything in your life, although it looks the same, is completely different, and although I look the same, I am completely different. And in the book, I liken it to one day, you're sitting in your house, you're having your coffee, you're reading the news, you're getting ready to go out and do whatever you're going to do next. And then a bomb hits your house. And everything that you knew it is now just a smoking ruin. You know, your family has this big hole blown in it. All of us, you know, my two younger children, Nat, who was two years younger than Miranda, so was 30, and Bea, who was a junior in college and actually on a semester abroad, 22. And David, we were all just, just reeling and. Well, you, you were there. You've been such a good friend, Mona. So you saw it, you saw it close up. Our zombie shocked, like states and all the things that you have to go through in those days, the immediate aftermath that are just so horrible. So three days before she died, it was just around Valentine's Day, she had been sending me a selfie. She was getting ready to go to some fun event and she sent me a selfie of herself. And I said, you look beautiful. Send me a full shot when you have one. And she said, I'll try. And that was the last text I had. Sorry, Mona. I think it's because I'm talking to you. I'm much more emotional than I. Hard to have a facade with you, Mona. And then three days later, I'm sitting on a computer with a funeral director saying what coffin would suit Miranda best? And the contrast is. And it's just within hours and days, you're suddenly having to make these decisions that are just surreal.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah. Making funeral arrangements for a gal you thought you would be planning a wedding for, you know. Yeah, it's. Yeah, I know, it is. It is staggering. And. And people say, I mean, let's talk then a little bit about what happens with other people in the world. Because you talk about this a lot in the book, that. Or not a lot, but you mentioned that people don't know what to do. They don't know how to approach you. But Some people really do say things that are unhelpful. Right. Like, and some of the things you mentioned, like, she's in a better place.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Yeah. The, the Brooklyn Hotel greeter who was just like, well, at least, like literally like, well, at least she's in a better place. Am I right? And I was like, she was in a really good place. She had a nice apartment, you know, near the waterfront of Brooklyn Heights. And even. Oh yeah, okay, well, that's good. But anyway, so, so yeah, I, I, it's when you get transported to this alternative universe, and I do write that it's. You suddenly realize how well populated it is. There are so many people around you walking in grief and sadness, and a lot of them have lost children or, you know, lost someone else through tragedy. And you start speaking another language. And the people who have not experienced this kind of tragedy in their lives. And I mean, like people. And I have lost parents and David lost his mother, you know, at a relatively, she was relatively young at 54. But there still seems to be an order to, to the universe in those types of losses. But these are tragedies that just upend your life and are unexpected. And so people, I get why people don't know what to say. I mean, people don't know what to say. A lot of people don't know what to say in general, even if your parent dies, they're very uncomfortable with it. But I know, and I wanted to make clear that I knew this came from a good place. Except maybe the hotel clerk, you know, well, even him, you know. Yeah. Putting a bright side on things. But they want to say the right thing. They see you in pain, they see their friend shattered, and they want to comfort you and they want to try make you feel better without realizing that not only you're not going to feel better, but trying to make you feel better is like the least thing you want at that moment. What you want is for people to lean into your grief and just say, basically, yeah, this really sucks. This is horrible. I'm so sorry. Can I get you another glass of scotch? That's what you want. And, and you, Mona, and some of our other close friends here were so good about it because the other thing that you want is people just to show up for you. You know, just to go on a dog walk or have coffee and, and just listen. You know, at times I worried I was becoming this grief bore with my, my friends, but you guys were all so great. You just listened and listened and listened and, and that really, really helped. But just Having that company was so important and supportive. And as I've also discovered entering this world, a lot of my fellow immigrants, they don't have support systems, they don't have a lot of friends. And it can be really, really lonely, especially as the world moves on as it does, and your friends move on as they do, and. And you don't move on and you're left to feel, you know, self conscious and maybe there's something wrong with me that I'm not getting over this so quickly.

[Mona Charon]

Talk for a minute, if you would, about the Jewish rituals of mourning, because you've talked about the importance of having people around, and I think you agree that the Jewish tradition sort of has the psychological insight to understand the importance of being surrounded by people when you're grieving. Can you talk about that a little bit?

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Yeah. So I'm a convert to Judaism. I converted, actually, when I had Miranda. She and I converted together. She was three months old and she didn't appreciate being dunked in a. I'm

[Mona Charon]

sure she had strong views.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

She always said she had strong views from the beginning. But anyway, we converted. And the first time I really encountered the Jewish rituals of death up close was when David's mother died. As I mentioned, she had been fighting leukemia for 19 years. She was a beloved public person. And, you know, we're both from Canada. She was this huge broadcaster and it came as a shock to so many people. And one of the things that you do is sit shiva, which means for seven nights, people come to your house every evening. A rabbi usually comes as well. Prayers are said, and everybody in that Jewish way brings food. And when I first heard about this, that this was going to be happening for the next seven days, by now, Miranda was about eight months old. I thought, this is terrible. Why would you want to have to entertain these people for eight days? And I was really nervous. And in fact, it turned out to be the absolute best thing in the world because that ritual understood that for the first week you needed to be with people. And you shouldn't have to feed yourself. You shouldn't have to honestly get out of your chair. Things are brought to you. People tell stories. It's like a prolonged wake, in a way, but it gets you through those first seven days in a really beautiful way. The other rituals that help, and I don't know what, you know, a lot of people, if you're not particularly religious, whether you're Catholic or whatever, and you don't have a kind of ingrained ritual, and we're not super religious, Jews, we're not super observant, but these really guide you at a moment where you, like I said, you're in shock. You don't know what to do.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

And the Jewish tradition is to bury very quickly. Like, you can't put it off. You can't. You know, Jews do get cremated, but it's not a Jewish tradition. So you can't just send your dead off and, you know, wait for them to come back in a little urn that you then put on a shelf and decide what to do with. You have to have the funeral, ideally within three days, bury the body. It's very graphic. It does not turn away from what is happening.

[Mona Charon]

You have to face it. There's no getting away from it.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

You have to face it. And then once the body is buried and the Shiva takes place, then you have, like, a year before you even have to think about putting up a headstone. And that is very merciful because, you know, there's haste at the beginning, and there's that company at that necessary time. It also recognizes that you need, like, a full year, four seasons of grief to think about, you know, that task. And then you have another ceremony and unveiling where mourners gather again, and you literally pull a sheet off the headstone, the marker. And in Miranda's case, I had the time to really think and plan what I wanted for her, which was a wildflower garden out near where we've spent every summer since she was born in Canada at our lake. You know, our lake house, cottage. And so I was able to do that. And so when the unveiling happened, it was a very beautiful thing.

[Mona Charon]

It is a magnificent spot. Beautiful. So you did an amazing, amazing job. You've also written recently a really great piece in the Wall Street Journal about something that's unique maybe to the time we're living in, about having lost someone, which is. I think you might have even used this expression. But like these, because of our devices, because of our digital lives, there are these little hidden IEDs that every now and then just explode. So can you talk about that a little bit?

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Yeah. So when people used to die before the digital age, you know, your possessions were all physical. You had papers, you had books, you had files, you had clothes. And those alone are hard enough to go through. I mean, I couldn't open Miranda's clothes for 18 months. But what you're not prepared for is these wonderful curated carousels from Facebook that pop up on your phone and you have no control over and say, remember, you and Miranda in 2016 or remember this vacation. And then suddenly you're bombarded and you're just going about your day, trying to cope, and then suddenly you look at your phone and you, you know. Yeah, I call them emotional IEDs. They just explode and you're leveled. You know, for the next hour, my car keeps wanting to connect to Miranda's iPhone and we, you know, you'll do searches in your emails for something, then suddenly there'll be all these emails from Miranda and there's her voice, there's her alive again. And it just, it just slays me. But the other point that I made in that article was so you get all this unwanted stuff that you can't control. But Apple, the phone company, Google, if you don't know your, the person's password. And we didn't know Miranda's password, although we tried every combination of her dog's name, Ringo, dates of birth and all that. Yeah, all that. And we even had her clue, which was roommate and best friend. I'm thinking that has to be Ringo.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

But anyway, we tried and tried and it ended up that the only way we could access anything on her computer was to get a court order. And they had to be separate court orders. One for Apple, one for the phone company, one for Google. And Apple in the end only allowed us, after, you know, going to court only allowed us access to her photos, which was good. And the, the like headlines of her emails, but no contents of her emails. Like you, you're made to feel like some sort of prurient.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Person or sleazy hacker who is just trying to recover your daughter's life that remains now locked in those items forever.

[Mona Charon]

Those digital vaults.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Those digital vaults. We never got access to her phone and I don't think we ever got access to Google. So people have written me and said, you know, I know this hacker and believe me, I'm, I'm thinking of going that route.

[Mona Charon]

You recommended that people get their loved ones passwords. That is one concrete suggestion.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Right. Everybody of any age, it doesn't matter. Put it in a file, let people know where it is, and then, you know, that's. That it's, it's what you need to do. And if you haven't done it, or if you're older and you have a will, put it in your will or put it with your will. It's so critical.

[Mona Charon]

So then your husband will find out about all your affairs and all that after.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Well, I know, but. Well, you know, I think we used to find all, you know, go through your parents, old love letters. And it's kind of sweet. Absolutely, I understand. And look, you can delete things you don't want people to see, but.

[Mona Charon]

Right, right.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

But yes, it is a whole other world now of possessions that we have to be self conscious of.

[Mona Charon]

Yeah. So tell me a little bit, tell us a little bit about things that did help. I mean, that you have this catastrophic pain, your world explodes. But you found this therapist who did this eye movement therapy. Talk about that a little bit. Because it's not that nothing at all can be done.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

Right, right, right. So the first thing I did, and I think a lot of people do, is you turn to the grief advice books, of which there, you know, is a universe, a whole library of them, and I went to some of the more prominent ones, and especially Elizabeth Kubler Ross, who writes about the stages. Because you're in such pain. I mean, you, you're not just in emotional pain, you're in physical pain. I mean, I wrote that it felt like there was an ice pick going into my heart, you know, every minute of every day. And your, your nervous system is off. You're not thinking clearly. You're very vulnerable to addiction and all kinds of things. In fact, your mortality goes up within five years of a child that you're much more likely to die, whether it's clumsiness, which certainly I had, or addiction or even suicide. So you want to get help. You want this pain to be at least managed. And I was astonished how hard it was to get that help, that even a very famous grief center here in Washington, D.C. you know, you call up and they're just like, you know, thank you for calling. We will not be taking new patients for 18 months. If this is an emergency, hang up and dial 91 1. Yes, I must heard that recording a hundred times. You know, psychiatric practices, grief specialists, all booked up. So I was getting quite desperate and thinking, because I was, I think, as you know, I was really feeling suicidal, which as you knew me before this happened, would be the last thing you think I would be capable of. But you're, it's the pain is that bad that you start to, to believe or think that it would be easier to not exist than to have to keep existing with this pain. And, and it's a weird thing, an awful guilty thing for a mother to think about, you know, when you have two living children and a husband. But that's how bad it is. That's how bad you feel. So finally I was just googling and I came across EMDR therapy which was discovered or started in the late 1980s by a female therapist who speculated that traumatic memories don't get filed the same way other memories do, that the brain actually can't process the memory and doesn't know what to do with it. And so she developed this method originally. And sometimes they still do this. You watch a dot go back and forth across the screen, and in this therapeutic setting, you recount the trauma so in detail. Like, as my therapist later explained, she said, you know, the only way to get a song out of your head is to listen to it all the way through. And I didn't know that, but that's, you know, good to know. Pro tip. But. But the same is true with trauma. And then just a few years ago, they were watching this process. You know, we can now look at it on MRIs. And it was true that when people were asked, you know, remember a happy memory, remember an ordinary memory, and the brain just, you know, worked away. And then when they said, okay, now I want you to think of this traumatic memory, the brain just. It started lighting up in weird places where it wouldn't normally in memory processing.

[Mona Charon]

Interesting. Yeah. Didn't know where to put it.

[Danielle Crittenden Frum]

No, no. And it meant that the. The memory or the trauma is ever present. So when you think about.