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- [00:00]
A
America has always, in every single year that has existed, been great and done great things. And America has always, in every single year it existed, been awful and done horrible things in the sense that, you know, our government reflects people, and people are going to people.
- [00:22]
B
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the focus group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark, and This week it's Fourth of July. But it's not just any Fourth of July. It's America's 250th anniversary. In a normal time, that would be a great unifier and could help bring people together around some of our lofty national ideals. But it's no secret that the Trump years have complicated a lot of people's relationship with patriotism. And some polling, like a recent Fox poll, showed that 27% of Democrats considered themselves proud of the country, compared to 83% of Republicans. But at the same time, 61% of Democrats considered themselves extremely or very patriotic. Gallup also found recently that A record low 58% of US adults say they are extremely or very proud to be an American. The number for Democrats has basically fallen off a cliff during both Trump terms. So we're setting out to explore the complicated feelings people, particularly Democrats, are having about America during the Trump years. So if you're having a tough time, I hope you come out of this discussion feeling seen. As my friends and the Democratic Party say, my guest today is pretty good at staying hopeful. Heather Cox Richardson, author of Letters from an American on Substack. It is one of my favorite substacks. Heather, thanks for being here.
- [01:48]
A
Such a pleasure to be here, my friend.
- [01:50]
B
It's so fun when you're here. I had a question. I was looking back at when the bicentennial was, and I missed it by just a smidge, but you might have been like 10, eight, I don't know. I don't want to do it. But do you remember the bicentennial?
- [02:04]
A
Truthfully, I can't do the math myself. I was born in 62, and that was 76, so I would have been 13.
- [02:10]
B
Okay, so 13. So do you remember it?
- [02:12]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [02:13]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [02:14]
A
So remember when I was young, I lived in quite a rural area, so we didn't do the big, you know, we saw the tall ships, but only online. Although I have an interesting tall ship story for you if you're interested. But. But we certainly were paying attention to what was going on around the country. I had been paying a close attention to Watergate even as a young kid. So I was very conflicted about how to approach 76. But you know, there were the reenactors, which were interesting themselves. There were the focus on the, the bicentennial minutes on tv. There was the idea celebrating the Declaration and so on. So we did all that. And then actually that day was Cloudy, where I live on the coast of Maine. And we spent the day with friends. I hate to say this, but actually painting, creosoting a deck. And then we had some kind of a cookout. And my friends and I actually set off fireworks that night. And the guy that I grew up with, like a brother to me, actually got caught by one of the fireworks and got pretty bad burns. Second degree burns, not third degree burns. But ever since then I have had a real fear of fireworks. So there you go. There was the 4th of July in 1776 for Heather Cox Richardson in 1776, in 1976, 1976.
- [03:38]
B
There you go, 1976. Perfect. That sounds like a right up to the getting, to the getting burned by fireworks. That sounds like a very traditional American Fourth of July. But can, considering that it was the bicentennial, the 200th anniversary of America's founding, was there like a vibe? Like, do you remember people feeling celebratory? Do you remember people feeling proud? Were there think pieces in the newspaper about America's complicated history? Or was it a pretty straightforward celebration of the United States?
- [04:11]
A
Well, do remember that I was 13 years old and in a very rural area. But that being said, even at the time, I remember there was a lot of conflict. You know, we were just coming out of Watergate. It was not clear what the future was going to look like to some degree. My earliest memories were the Vietnam War, which was not really far in the rearview mirror. There were changes coming and good changes as well as bad changes. Right. So in 1975, you get Bruce Springsteen hitting the charts and being on the COVID both Time and Newsweek on the
- [04:43]
B
same week, which is Born in the usa. Pardon me for Born in the usa.
- [04:47]
A
Oh, you are so cute, my young friend. Born to Run. Of course, yes. So there you go, Born to Run. And that came out in 75. August in 75. And he hits the COVID of the Time in Newsweek. It was clear if you were paying attention to music, certainly that we were entering a new era. Then you've got the rise of Jimmy Carter in Georgia and the support that he has with musicians down there and so on. So you had this tension. And that's one of the things that I actually wanted to out point, point out talking to you is that I Think when you look back, everyone remembers the rosy stuff, right? You do it in your own life. You also do it in your country. But the truth is that every 50 years, there is always tension in the United States. And Curiously, at these 50 years, year intervals, sometimes the tension is higher than it is in other times, not because of that anniversary, but simply because of where those dates fall. So you have the 20s, 26, right, 1926, when the country is deeply divided between those people who are succeeding in the new economy of the, you know, the Republicans in the twenties, but the farmers and the laborers and people of color who are being left behind. And then in 1876, you've got the real problems of the American south in that period and of Reconstruction. People also forget that it's just about the time of the 4th of July, really. It's about between the 2nd and the 3rd. That news comes back east of the Battle of the Little Bighorn and the destruction of Custer's 7th Cavalry, George Custer, Armstrong Custer's 7th Cavalry. And people are like, what's going on here? So there is always, you can point to tensions in those periods, even though there are the parades and they're the barbecues and so on. You know, American democracy is never a straight shot to, you know, cherry pie and roses.
- [06:49]
B
I'm glad you set it up that way, because I want to delve into the complexity of what I'm hearing from voters, because we have been asking voters now for several weeks just. And I want to say we start every single focus group, everyone that I do, we do three to four a week, and we always start the same way. How do you think things are going in the country? That is just the opening question. Sometimes we'll ask, if it's state specific, we might ask how things are going in their state as well. And this time we did a similar version where we basically asked people, how do you think things are going in the country, considering we're at our 250th anniversary? And what you got back was just a real mix of emotions, even when we were sort of asking people, do you feel proud to be an American or do you feel negatively about being an American? People were pretty mixed on that. I want to wrestle with that today, the complexity of America and how we feel about it, especially during an anniversary. But before we get to the voters, I want to get your reaction to a clip from John Ossoff a few days ago at a rally in Georgia that I could not have loved more, in part because it feels like it speaks directly to this tension for voters. And articulate. Articulates it really well. Let's listen.
- [08:07]
D
Americans aren't a race. We're a people united not by ethnicity, but by shared convictions. And that is what makes us exceptional and a beacon to the world. Just think 250 years on, what the founders would say. See if they visited us today.
- [08:44]
E
But wait.
- [08:45]
D
They would see that slavery had been abolished. They would see that Americans without land and then women's, and then the descendants of slaves had secured voting rights. They would see that our science and discovery propelled human knowledge to unimaginable heights and that those 13 colonies had grown into a superpower that defeated the Nazis and communism. They'd see a pluralist democracy, people of all colors, descended from every point on earth, stitched together out of many nations into one. But they'd also see a nation that, at the height of its wealth and power, fell into the very traps they most feared, devouring itself in bitter conflict between warring factions captured by special interests. And they'd see a faithless president exploiting this rot to pursue the absolute power they overthrew.
- [09:48]
B
What do you make of Ossoff there? Like, not only does he do the USA chants, which I love. You read my book. But in the book, the reason I'm so impressed by this is this gets at something that I think is really important to Americans, which is they love America like they are of America. And so they, like, actually a. A pre. Not a president, but a candidate or a leader who reminds them of the good stuff while not sugarcoating or shying away from the hard stuff. And I just felt like he really caught that tension better than I've seen any politician do in quite some time.
- [10:31]
A
I agree with that. And, you know, just. Just by the way, I am of the understanding that he writes his own speeches.
- [10:38]
B
He does write his own speeches, but
- [10:40]
A
there's a longer story behind that. And one of the things that I've really encouraged people to do who are in leadership positions is to. To tie the problems of today to our history in the sense that, you know, and one of my big role models is Abraham Lincoln, who did the exact same thing rhetorically that Ossoff is doing, saying, hey, we have these great principles in the Declaration of Independence, and look what we have done with them. You know, we've. We've had this incredibly successful run, and yet that is being challenged in Lincoln's day by a small group of elite Southern enslavers who are trying to destroy those principles. And Ossoff is doing the same thing. And the. And the trick to that, then, is not only identifying that and calling out what's going on in the United States today, but making people understand that that's the reason gas is expensive. Like, it's not that you can either have cheap eggs or you can have a democracy. They're all the same story. And that I think Ossoff is doing very, very well. But he is not the only one. Zoran Mamdani has been doing it incredibly well as mayor of New York. His speech about the victory of the Knicks, I think we'll be teaching that speech in years to come. It's only eight minutes long and was just absolutely beautifully done. But you're also seeing it among a lot of Western figures. Jason Crow in Colorado, Rob Sands and Josh Turek in Iowa, certainly Tina Smith in Minnesota. You know, this idea that we're really reclaiming American democracy and taking strength from it to combat those who would destroy it in our era, I think that's the story of this moment.
- [12:29]
B
Yeah, I agree. I want to get into voters, because I could talk about you, this with you for a long time, but let's get into the voters and then we can circle back and talk more about this. But like I said at the top, the Trump administration is really complicating a lot of people's relationship with patriotism and America at the moment. So I want to start with some of the Democrats who feel downright ashamed of the country right now. I was in Canada a few weeks ago, and I was like, please don't let any. Like, I don't want to be identified as an American because I just think, like, I'm just so ashamed of our behavior as a country and, like, the hatred and just, like, the just vitriol towards our neighbors. I think before this last election, I still had a lot of hope that there were a lot of Americans who maybe just didn't have the privilege to take the time to educate themselves. And now watching the things that Trump is doing and his cronies, and the fact that, like, anyone still supports that has given me, like, a complete, like, existential crisis with, like, who I thought Americans were and what we stood for. I'm embarrassed to go to other countries for trips or to talk to other people from other countries because our country is run by a dictator, that all he does is crime.
- [13:49]
E
My family's from Jamaica. That's everybody's favorite place to go for vacation. Right. But, like, actually living in Jamaica, seeing what it's like to actually deal with life as a Jamaican A lot of people, not just from Jamaica, from the West Indies, from around the world. An American citizenship is gold. And it still is to this day. So from that perspective, I do take that seriously. At the same time, my reason for not being proud to be in America right now, I think is because it's not really about the President. It's more so I do think that Americans don't realize how privileged they are. I feel like I've been ashamed to be an American for, since I was maybe in college. You know, I, I backpacked through Europe during, you know, the Iraqi war and Afghan Afghanistan conflict. And you know, I really got a world view at that time as like a 22 year old kind of lesson, you know, from people I met from around the world that really kind of shaped my thinking. It's horrible what is done to people, you know, in this country every day. But it's been like that pre Trump. It's just magnified now. And, you know, it's like that's why I'm always going to vote for change.
- [15:15]
C
Especially like with the 4th of July coming up and the 250th anniversary, it's going to be a struggle for me, especially because my entire family, my closest friends are all the opposite of me. And so it's like my husband and I kind of are the outsiders trying to decide what we can and can't say without causing a battle. It frustrates me. Like we go to a concert and all of a sudden the last song is Proud to be an American. And everybody stands up and, you know, puts their heart on their or their hand on their heart.
- [15:49]
A
And my husband and I are looking
- [15:50]
C
at each other saying, we just can't do it in today's environment. Just not feeling it.
- [15:56]
B
A lot of times when I was growing up, it was kind of just like, okay, like it's the Fourth of July, you have to put on like red, white and blue and you have to go to a parade. But now I'm like, I'm not, I'm not putting on red, white and blue. I just don't feel, I just don't feel like I can do it and mean it in any sense. This is the bummer part of the, of listening to the voters because. And I gotta say, as somebody who also grew up, I smoke. I also grew up in a small rural town like you did, but mine, I was in central Pennsylvania.
- [16:26]
A
I know because I read your book.
- [16:27]
B
That's right. But you know what? Somebody did sing Proud to be an American at every fair and There were the town fireworks that the fire would put on that. You get really bummed out if you couldn't go because it was raining. And I grew up with a very, like, firm sense of America being good just based on where I grew up. I grew up around. And granted, it is deep Trump country now, and it had always voted Republican, but now it is even. The numbers of voters have really climbed in the Trump era. I think one of the reasons I was never attracted to the Democratic Party as, like, a young person is I felt like they didn't like America as much as I did or as much as I wanted people to like America. I always was like, look at how great America is. And I still feel that way, except I totally am with these guys that I have been in no mood to celebrate America's 250. None. I am a. I am a. I am a. I'm the audience for the 250, and I cannot feel what I want to feel about the country right now. And I guess, what do you think the difference is between sort of patriotism and, like, being proud of the country? Like, are those different things? Are those the same things? Because I would still say I'm pretty patriotic while not feeling particularly proud of the country at the moment. And I'll just say this last thing, which is, I think America electing Trump a second time did real psychological damage to people who thought maybe even a little bit. I knew we could. This could happen, but I. I really hoped there was enough in there to keep this from happening again. And the fact that Trump was elected a second time after trying to overturn an election, I do think it's. It's cratered people's sense of who we are, at least at the moment.
- [18:24]
A
I think I'm a little bit further along that spectrum than you are, in the sense that, you know, when the Obama Presidential center opened a week or so ago, I don't know when it was somebody. I read somebody saying, you know, how could the same country that elected this man elect Donald Trump twice? And my first reaction was, well, the same country didn't, in the sense that when you think of the way that voting has gone in the United States, certainly, really, since the 1980s, but, you know, 1988 and the arrival of talk radio and then 1996 and the arrival of Fox News Channel, we have created. Created a population that is not operating in the real world. And so when I think about this country, I think about that larger problem with the fact that we are no longer based in reality for a Significant number of the people who live here. And that's one of the things that you and I are combating. That's why we're here and why we do what we do, at least in part. But in terms of patriotism, in this moment, you know, one of the real changes we've seen since the 1980s, I think, is that people have ceased to believe that it's their. That it's their government, that they have become subjects, in a sense, rather than citizens. And the reason that I'm actually quite excited about the 250th this year and feeling quite patriotic about it is because Americans are rediscovering that. You know, we never had a perfect past, and we've never had a perfect present. What we have had is moments of time when people put skin in the game and said, I don't like the laws about voting, so I'm going to change them. Or I don't like the laws about taxes, so I'm going to change them. Or I don't like the way we're dealing with foreign affairs, so I'm going to change that. And I think you're seeing that again now in a big way. But part of rethinking what it means to be proud to be an American and what patriotism means is refocusing not on the idea that, you know, America's always great, because here's a news flash. America has always, in every single year that has existed, been great and done great things. And America has always, in every single year it existed, been awful and done horrible things in the sense that, you know, our government reflects people. And people are gonna. People. They're both good and bad. The trick for us as a country is to make sure we establish the guardrails and the mechanics of a government that is good more than it is bad. And if we remember that and remember that the real heart of America is, like Ossoff said, that commitment to a set of principles, then we can work around the bad stuff and work to make a better country. And I look around me and I see in a way that I have not seen in my lifetime, my really conscious lifetime, American people stepping back up to the plate. And that is how you change the direction of a country, I think. And so I actually feel quite good about it. I was actually, before we talked, I was actually pulling out not just my flag, but all the sort of flag accoutrements that have accumulated as gifts over the years that I've never flown before or never put out before. And this Year, I will.
- [21:42]
B
You're inspiring me because I know you're right. It is so much of it. And again, this is the thesis of my book in a lot of ways, which is, yes, people have light and dark in them, and leadership can make a huge difference in terms of what is pulled out of us. And we do. I think that's the trouble with Trump, right? Is it feels like he's pulling the worst instincts of people out. He's taking all the bad stuff and he's shining a spotlight on that. And the question is, this is what I liked about what Ossoff was doing, is to say, no, let's shine a light on the good parts. Let me try to bring out the best in us. Because I do think that is the hunger that Americans have right now. They do still love their country and what it stands for, but they just understand that it is coming nowhere close to meeting its aspirations as stated. And that can get sort of soul crushing, because what you want to be is. Is moving forward. But you're so right. You always. You always hit on this point, and I always appreciate it when you do that. The best way for Americans to rediscover their love for America is to participate in making America the thing that you want it to be.
- [22:53]
A
Yes. And I think that one of the things that really jumps out in this moment is that that doesn't only mean getting involved in politics, although, of course it means getting involved in politics. And, you know, I'm always excited when I hear people say, well, I ran for the school board. I'm on the school board now. I'm, you know, I'm volunteering in this sort of an organization, that sort of an organization. But, you know, I was talking to a woman, I guess about a year ago now who said, you know, I started getting involved in this. This group in my town, and it was involved in some kind of social reform, and I don't know what. And she said, and I realized that I really needed to know more than I did, and that if I was really going to make a difference, I needed to be a lawyer. So I've gone back to law school. And that sort of sense that you are contributing to your community and that your community is pushing you to be a bigger person and possibly a better person than you were before. That's the kind of mentality that I think a great leader can bring out. And the comparison I would make to something like Ossoff. And I'm always careful about doing this because I don't want people to say oh, she says Ossoff or somebody is like some great hero in the past. But, you know, when Abraham Lincoln was trying to convince people to stand against those elite enslavers who were completely advocating for the idea that black Americans should never have rights in the United States, and it was a deeply racist country, America was a deeply racist country then. The thing is that, that Lincoln would go to these audiences that were full of people heckling him and he would say, you know, he would sort of, in good humor, sort of push back on them their comments about how he just wanted a black wife or whatever. And he would say, either we believe that people are equal or we don't. And if we don't, it's only a question of time until you're not going to be equal either. But if you believe that, that let's tear up the Declaration of Independence, let's go to the statute books where it's written and you know, because it's in the frontest piece of them, it's not itself a law, and tear it out. Do you want to do that? And when forced to recognize that the positions they were taking were actually in, you know, against the principles of the country, you. We actually have speeches where the people are recording those speeches, have the audience yelling, no, no, don't do it, don't do it. And that ability to remind people of what the United States of America is supposed to be, that's what our leaders should be doing now. And a number of them are. Ossoff's not the only one. When that happens, as you say, they call us to our better nature.
- [25:33]
B
Let's keep going here. There were a lot of folks in these groups who were sort of higher on America as a long term proposition, but are deeply conflicted about this moment.