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- [00:08]
A
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. A quick scheduling note. Tomorrow we're going to do something a little different. We're going to be live with one of your favorites at 3pm in the east on substack and YouTube. And so as a result of that, for the audio only listeners, pod might come out on little late, but if you're desperate to you have me on your usual 4 o' clock dog walk or whatever, come hang out live on substack or YouTube and we're gonna have a good time and look forward to seeing some of y' all there. Up next, I'm super excited for our guest today because I'm pissed at these guys. I'm pissed at these guys and they're coming at him over the stupidest thing imaginable. And he is a better man than I. And he's in the middle of two indictments, so there's some limitations where he can talk about. But, man, I do think that we're gonna have a lot of other interesting material to mind in addition to his case. And so I'm so happy to welcome back to the show the former director of the FBI from 2013 to 2017. He was also a federal prosecutor in New York. He also has got a new legal thriller. The latest installment in the series is out today. It's called Red Verdict. And this time his protagonist, Nora Carlton, is looking into some Russian counterintelligence. That's interesting. We're going to talk about that in a second, but there's some other news going on with you, I think. How you doing, Jim? Welcome back to the show.
- [01:41]
B
That's what I've heard. I've read that. Thanks for having me on, Tim.
- [01:45]
A
Would love to. I watched you with Nicole Wallace, so I'm aware that you can't talk about an ongoing case. So we're. We're aligned on that. And I do have to admit that Nicole really kind of mogged me by telling you at the start that she finished your book before the interview. I cannot say that. I cannot say the same. So appreciate your candor. Radical candor is important on a podcast. I want to ask this about the case, which is not any specific about your defense, but just when you heard about it, when you heard that they were indicting you a second time over the shells, I'm wondering, like, what your emotions were, what the reaction was like. Do you. Is there a sense of fear, annoyance? Were you laughing at them because of the absurdity, resolve, you know, talk to Me about what? The interior life of Jim Comey, sort
- [02:36]
B
of resignation, because I had heard noise from different media sources, had made inquiries of my lawyers, so I knew something was cooking, and so I expected something. If not this, I thought it would be something else. So resignation, a little bit of surprise. That is really going to happen. We're really going to do this. But those are the two. Those are my two reactions.
- [03:00]
A
Your video, in response to it focused on kind of, in spite of that, in spite of, like, the surprise of the absurdity and the frustration, like, the importance of fighting back against it. And I'm wondering, like, you know, there's kind of the interior Jim Comey and, like, what you feel like you want people to know. And I'm wondering kind of where your mind is on that now, you know, a few days, weeks afterwards.
- [03:27]
B
I think it's really important that people not become numb to this, not accept this as just another one of those Trumpian excesses we have to deal with. This is really, really bad. And the danger, even for me, is it happens enough times that it becomes a little bit of background noise. Oh, oh. Comey was indicted again. Everybody assumes that there's nothing to it, whatever it is, but we. We sort of move past it, and it's really important that we don't. And so I can't talk about a particular case, but I can and hope everybody else does talk about the danger inherent in accepting that that's how the Department of Justice should work.
- [04:03]
A
I hear you on the not being numb, and I feel that. And it's important. And obviously we think about that a lot at the Bulwark, how to, you know, kind of talk about it in stark terms and take it seriously. I also have the personal impulse, though, to want to point and laugh at them. I mean, it is. It is serious business, obviously. I mean, you have a team of lawyers, you're under indictment. Like, it's not. It's not a joke, but it also kind of is a joke. I don't know. I mean, is there a. Is there a sense of value at mocking, do you think, or is that the wrong impulse?
- [04:37]
B
Yeah, maybe. I mean, I'm a. I'm a bit of a mocker, and so I'm attracted to that approach to things. But in this case, I think it's important because I have such respect for both the concept and the reality of an independent judiciary. I want to make sure that judges know that I take it seriously because I take their role so seriously. So I worry that if I tried to be funny, with it. Jon Stewart wanted me to come on his program. One of the reasons I didn't was I don't want to joke about it because I don't want to send a message that we misunderstood as somehow disrespecting the process.
- [05:11]
A
So you're not going to go along with me in my idea that the Gen Alpha kind of replaced 6, 7 with 8, 6, 4, 7? Like, you don't. You don't think that's a good idea?
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B
I'll let you handle that.
- [05:22]
A
When I'm not on, it's just an idea. I'm just spitballing. I'm just throwing it out there. It's like 8647, you know, like, do it with a little. Throw a little judge on it. I get it, though. One last joking question. Have you ever been involved? You've been in a lot of investigations, so I guess it's maybe not a joke. You're a prosecutor. You're at the FBI. Everything came across your desk. Was there ever a seashell case before? Is that something that you ever encountered, a case where seashells played the key?
- [05:51]
B
No, this is my first. This is my first experience with a. Sheesh. It's not easy to say a seashell prosecution.
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A
No, it's the seashell. How did that thing go that you said as a kid? Seashells on the seashore. There's something on the seashore, right?
- [06:05]
B
Sally sells seashells on the seashore, Seals on the seashore. She just.
- [06:10]
A
Yeah, Sally never got indicted. I don't believe Sally was ever indicted. All right, well, I guess I think that maybe a good way to talk about this then, with the context of my stated view on this podcast a million times. This is a ridiculous prosecution of you even. I guess one more thing with this is that even Jonathan Turley said it's ridiculous. I mean, he's been a huge defender of the Trump in, like, every absurd thing Trump said legally. You said on Nicole's show that made you a little nervous that Turley came to your. And so I just was just wondering why. Why does that make you nervous? Is it just kind of like when Megyn Kelly retweets me, that makes me a little nervous that my take is off. Is it just that sort of. That sort of nervousness?
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B
That's probably exactly what it is. It's that you wonder, am I asleep? Am I having a Jonathan Turley dream or something? Or Megyn Kelly dream?
- [07:03]
A
Yeah. Yeah. She retweeted my take on the Iran war this morning, and I was like that's concerning. So I guess maybe we contextualize it in a way by talking about what else they're doing. And some of the other cases, for example, there's one in particular that really grinds my gears and that is there's a report that starting in April 2026, Department of Justice Civil Rights Division is investigating former White House aide Cassidy Hutchison for a potential perjury regarding a 2022 testimony. It's any kind of news to me. This administration is so, you know, minding their P's and Q's on not lying in testimony before Congress. I think that'd be news to some of the administration officials. But you know, in this case, not to minimize your ability, you know, how annoying it is for you to get lawyers and the impact of your family, which we discussed last time. You're on. I know that's very serious, but Cassidy Hutchinson was like a young assistant. Like the idea of having to like get attorneys and have this on your record and be prevent and it's hard to get other jobs. You know, somebody's young at the beginning of their career. I just think it's particularly pernicious. And anyway, I'm just wondering if you had any thoughts about that or the other kind of revenge style cases that they're pursuing.
- [08:20]
B
Yeah, I do. I mean there's a famous speech in my in the circles in which I worked by Robert Jackson, who was this, the attorney general in 1940, and he called together all the federal prosecutors who were serving under Franklin Roosevelt to the Great hall to Department of justice to sort of tell them to get their act together and act in a non political way. He was really worried about them responding to political imperatives. And one of the things he said is a prosecutor can do great good in society, but a prosecutor is at his most dangerous where instead of investigating crimes, he picks a person and then seeks to find a crime to pin to that person. He said it more eloquently than I can, but that's what you see happening with people like Ms. Hutchinson, who you're right, is far less able, probably emotionally, financially, in other ways to stand up for herself than I am. And it's intended to send a message that it's the reason that the mob tried to whack witnesses and why the witness protection program was the most important thing we ever developed in this country in the battle against Cosa Nostra, because they couldn't threaten people who were willing to tell the truth. That's what's going on is sending a message trying to scare people who've spoken out. I mean John Brennan is a great example, but even something someone like Cassidy Hutchinson is another example speaking about the
- [09:35]
A
way that they're using the government for intimidation. I wanted to ask you about one other case. Louise Lucas, the state senator from Virginia who was spearheading the Virginia redistricting effort that just got overturned. Her office in Portsmouth was raided by the doj. And one thing about that raid struck me is that a FOX News camera was on the scene and the reporter there I believe is from their London bureau. So I was wondering given that what you thought about that tactic obviously given the caveat that people have sources that you had to navigate that as director of the FBI when it comes to a free media covering your investigations, even still pretty noteworthy that it was FOX News that was on the scene. I'm quite certain that they don't have an office there in Virginia Beach.
- [10:30]
B
Yeah, totally inappropriate.