Republicans Could Have Stopped Trump. They Didn’t. (w/ Jeff Flake)

Summary

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Episode Overview

Theme:
This episode of The Bulwark features former Senator Jeff Flake in a candid conversation about the Republican Party’s response to Donald Trump, the missed opportunities to stop his ascendancy, the impacts on American democracy, and Flake's hopes (and concerns) for the future of principled conservatism and institutional resilience. The host and Flake reflect on defining moments, personalities, party pressures, and the dynamics within the Senate—interwoven with a mix of humor and frustration.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jeff Flake’s 2017 “Resignation” Speech and Its Relevance

• The episode opens with the host referencing Flake’s iconic 2017 address, noting how prescient it sounds even years later. (00:00–01:31)
• Flake clarifies:

  “It wasn't a resignation speech. I didn't resign. I just said I wasn't going to run again. This was October of 2017, so I still had 15 months after that in office.” (01:32)

• Flake reflects on Arizona’s independent tradition and how he misjudged the Republican primary electorate’s alignment with Trump.

  “It became quite clear that that subset of a subset of voters that votes in Republican primaries wanted somebody who was all in with the President. And I couldn't be.” (02:28)

• The host commends Flake’s prescience and candor, and jokes about his unchanged appearance, setting a tone that’s both serious and lightly self-deprecating.

  “You have not aged a day. That was a long time ago...I’m sure it’s a lot of raw milk.” (03:13)

2. The GOP’s Failure to Stand Up to Trump

• The host expresses sadness over Flake’s call to action going unheeded and notes only a handful (McCain, Romney, Cheney) truly stood up. (03:49)
• Flake asserts there were clear historical “hinge points” where joint action could have altered the party’s trajectory:

  “If we had all stood up, we could have done it at that time... had Mitch McConnell at that time afterwards say, hey, I'm going to vote for impeachment, let's have everybody do it... Did Kevin McCarthy, had he not gone down to Mar a Lago?” (04:39–05:09)

• He laments Congress ceding its institutional power, particularly the Senate:

  “To see Congress just willingly give that up, just cede that territory, just give up its prerogative. That's what's been painful. And for me, no office is worth that... When you're neutered, you're not doing anything, you're just agreeing. And that's what's been painful.” (05:35)

3. Party Power, Self-Interest, and a Possible ‘Migration’

• Flake notes that Trump’s grip came from his ability to threaten any incumbent with a primary challenger, an approach enabled by Republican primary voters and party infrastructure. (06:15–06:51)
• He cautiously predicts that as the Trump era wanes, there is a “migration” back to traditional Republican principles:

  “He may be a more powerful lame duck than some because he'll still have a residual following, but that's coming to an end. So I'm more hopeful that we can get back to some semblance of what we Republicans used to stand for.” (07:51)

• Flake also critiques Democrats, suggesting that if they occupy the middle ground, Republicans will be forced to contest it:

  “There's a massive lane in the middle that if somebody will take, the other party will have to fight for it.” (08:33)

4. The Host’s Nuanced Pushback

• The host, skeptical about how outspoken Republicans only speak up post-primary, presses Flake:

  “It's actually, to me, it's a little sadder actually watching them after they lose suddenly say a few things...” (06:41)

• The episode closes with a reference to centrist optimism at the Aspen Ideas Festival and a question about the future. (08:59–09:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Standing Up to Trump:
  Jeff Flake (04:39)

  “If we had all stood up, we could have done it at that time.”

• On Congressional Surrender:
  Jeff Flake (05:35)

  “To see Congress just willingly give that up, just cede that territory, just give up its prerogative. That's what's been painful.”

• On Missed Opportunities:
  Jeff Flake (04:39–05:09)

  “There are a couple of hitch points that we could have avoided this. We really could have.”

• On Hope for the Future:
  Jeff Flake (07:51)

  “He may be a more powerful lame duck than some because he'll still have a residual following, but that's coming to an end. So I'm more hopeful that we can get back to some semblance of what we Republicans used to stand for.”

• On the Middle Lane:
  Jeff Flake (08:33)

  “There's a massive lane in the middle that if somebody will take, the other party will have to fight for it.”

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–01:31 — Flake’s 2017 speech recalled; discussion on its ongoing relevance
• 01:32–03:13 — Flake discusses his decision not to seek re-election, the state of AZ politics
• 03:49–04:39 — Host laments lack of collective GOP resistance; Flake identifies historic hinge points
• 05:09–06:30 — Flake on the Senate surrendering its institutional power and his feelings on party culture
• 06:30–07:50 — Discussion of primary threats, ‘migration’ away from Trump’s dominance
• 07:50–08:59 — Future prospects for the GOP and plea for Democrats to claim the political center
• 08:59–09:11 — Host inquires about centrist optimism and next steps

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Tone and Takeaways

Direct, at times wry and self-effacing, the conversation pulls no punches in discussing political cowardice, hindsight, and institutional decay. Flake’s honesty about regrets and the potential for a post-Trump GOP, combined with the host’s skeptical but hopeful tone, makes for a rich, reflective, and accessible analysis valuable to listeners across the spectrum.

Transcript

[A]

Found out backstage. Jeff Flake's a big bulwark guy. That's great. We love that. So, you know, I don't do a lot of preparation for interviews as a. Just as a habit, but what I did for you was I went and watched what must have been your 2017 resignation speech.

[B]

We are, of course, testing the institution of American liberty in ways that none of us ever imagined we would and in ways that we probably never should again. My colleagues. To say that our politics is not healthy is somewhat of an understatement.

[C]

I believe that we all know well

[B]

that this is not a normal time and that the threats to our democracy from within and without are real. And none of us can say with confidence how the situation that we now find ourselves in will turn out.

[A]

And I'll tell you, it got me as, like, I don't know another word for it. It got me as hot now like I need a cigarette after I watched it. But what struck me, what struck me, right, so you're like, you know, you're saying all the things it could have been. You could be given that speech today. Right? Because it is. It is about what happens when Congress lays down Madisonian. You know, the Congress needs to stand up, and there has to be a counteracting of ambitions and checks and balances. And you quote Roosevelt, the good one, the Republican one. Just kidding. I'm just kidding. And you close with Lincoln. It's perfect. How do you think things have been going since you did that?

[C]

That was a long time ago. But. But if I had to give the speech again, I don't think I'd change anything at that time. And it wasn't a resignation speech. I didn't resign. I just said you weren't going to run again. I wasn't going to run again. This was October of 2017, so I still had 15 months after that in office. But. But I could tell, and frankly, I wanted to run for re election. I. Nobody gets to the Senate and just wants to be there one term. And so I wanted to, and I thought that I could initially, when President Trump was elected, I didn't support him in 2016, but I thought that, you know, Arizona voters have always been independent. You know, there's the independent streak that goes through them, you know, Barry Goldwater and John McCain and Mavericks all over. And I thought that Arizona voters would appreciate somebody who would push back.

[A]

Did they?

[C]

No. It became clear by that time, by October. And I wrote. I wrote a book, didn't tell my staff I was writing it because I Didn't want to be talked out of it. And I released it in July of 17 titled Stole the Barry Goldwater Conscience of a Conservative. And basically was trying to explain why what we were seeing from Donald Trump was not conservatism. And I had hoped that people would say, yeah, conservatives, Republicans. But it became quite clear that that subset of, a subset of a subset of voters that votes in Republican primaries wanted somebody who was all in with the President. And I couldn't be.

[A]

You know, I gotta say, having just watched you on my iPad earlier today, you have not aged a day. That was a long time ago. And when you walked into the green room, I was like, this guy looks exactly like he looked like that day. It's amazing. Congratulations on whatever you're doing. I'm sure it's a lot of raw milk.

[C]

That's sure what it is.

[A]

Whatever RFK is prescribing really seems to be working for you.

[C]

I'm not a milk guy. I grew up milking a cow. You know, I grew up on a ranch. And no, I don't know, Republicans are

[A]

really into milk these days.

[C]

Not me. Not me.

[A]

I wanted to have kind of a real conversation. You were like a real inspiration to me at the time, to a lot of us. And when I was listening, I got so sad because you were making this like clarion call to your colleagues to do something and they didn't like. It's, I mean, a couple of them, I mean, McCain stood up back then and we've seen Mitt Romney and Liz Cheney, but just such a, such a precious few. And now, you know, now that we're nine years later. You're watching Cornyn, you're watching the doctor who said RFK was fine. Cassidy, thank you. I'm a 46 year old woman, so I've got some brain fog sometimes. Tell us, what do you make of the fact that nobody did stand up?

[C]

You know, the sad thing is, if we had all stood up, we could have done it at that time. There are a couple of hinge points that we saw that if we would have stood up, and I mean, you can go to January 6th, had Mitch McConnell at that time afterwards say, hey, I'm going to vote for impeachment, let's have everybody do it instead. Just eight. Did Kevin McCarthy, had he not gone down to Mar a Lago?

[A]

Kevin.

[C]

Yeah, to rehabilitate. There are a couple of hitch points that we could have avoided this. We really could have. And that's what's difficult to see and what's really difficult is the Senate has always been this institution that stands athwart history. The rules are such that empower the individual and then people stand up and guard the prerogatives of the institution. They believe in the Senate as an Institution. Article 1 branch house too, but in particular the Senate, given the other responsibilities. And that's what's just been so painful to see is, I mean modern day presidency will always take more power from the legislative branch. It's just the way the system is. But to see Congress just willingly give that up, just cede that territory, just give up its prerogative. That's what's been painful. And for me, no office is worth that. I mean to be reelected, just to be reelected. When you're neutered, you're not doing anything, you're just agreeing. And that's what's been painful. And so I've loved seeing what we're starting to see now. It's bladed, but it's coming. I think there is some kind of migration going on.

[A]

Oh really? Say more about that. What is the migration? You mean how they are all getting voted out of office because Trump targets them and then they maybe say one or two things now that they're headed out. I mean, I don't mean to be.

[C]

No, no, no.

[A]

I like to be optimistic about this stuff. But it's actually, to me, it's a little sadder actually watching them after they lose suddenly say a few things, you

[C]

know, well, whether you call it self interest or whatever else, I think it's coming. We're getting past the filing deadlines and primaries and so that emboldens some people to speak out or they are defeated in a primary and so they speak out. And some people say, yeah, I like that. What Republicans used to stand for, but with the exception of a few senators, you know, Tommy Tuberville and a few others who are true believers and who really like what they see. The vast majority of my former colleagues don't want to be rubber stamps. They don't like what they're doing. They want to get to legislating. No, but, but, but he carries a big stick and he's been able to, until this time, identify any seat in the country, any Republican seat, and generate a primary opponent who will take you out. But that is ending. And so I think Republicans will migrate back to more familiar territory, limited government, economic freedom. Things nobody believes really in. This tariff agenda, for example, this war, the way it's been conducted or negotiated, they don't agree with. So I think you're going to see them move back. And the president will be a lame duck. He may be a more powerful lame duck than some because he'll still have a residual following, but that's coming to an end. So I'm more hopeful that we can get back to some semblance of what we Republicans used to stand for. Now I wish the Democrats would help us out a little more by, instead of electing the Democrats, push people toward the middle here. There's a massive lane in the middle that if somebody will take, the other party will have to fight for it. But if Democrats continue to and I know that's where some of the energy in the party is, we've seen it in the last couple of weeks. But for the most part, I hope the Democrats realize that they've got to occupy that middle ground. And if they do, Republicans will be forced to contest that as well.

[A]

Tell me what you see for the future of the okay. The Aspen Ideas Festival is where those centrists are.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you see as the future? Because it's good that you're optimistic. I.