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The Bulwark
Senators Never Asked Blanche the Most Obvious Epstein Question (w/ Andrew Weissmann)
00:05:06
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- [00:01]
Andrew Weissmann
So the theme for this episode is going to be I call.
- [00:09]
Sarah Longwell
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Illegal News. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. It's Friday, July 17, and I am joined by my best buddy, Andrew Weissman, who is here. Andrew, it's great to see you. Andrew, author of Liars Kingdom attorney extraordinaire, main justice podcaster. You guys know him. He's here. Andrew, I have to notice you con commented on my appearance as we came in here kindly, and I'm going to comment on yours. Your hair seems a little high today, and I wonder if it's because during the blanche hearing, you had your hands in it. I was on Alex Wagner's podcast the other day and my hair got bigger and bigger as it went on because I got more and more agitated and I was getting both sweaty and putting my hands in my hair. Is that, is that a blanche hearing pompadour you've got going on?
- [00:54]
Andrew Weissmann
I think if it were, if it was a result of the Planche hearing, I'd be bald fault. I would have pulled it all out. Although, you know, I did have to watch the whole thing live, which the, the last time I had that experience, it was watching. This is good. I'm going to start with an accident.
- [01:14]
Sarah Longwell
I so unlike you.
- [01:16]
Andrew Weissmann
It's so unlike me. I, as you know, do work for Ms. Now. And during the very famous, infamous debate which Donald Trump insisted should happen even before the sort of party nominations, so he debated the sitting president, Joe Biden, and it was in June, and I was not planning on watching that. And I was planning on, I was, let's just say I was planning on having a liquid diet. And I get a call from the wonderful sort of head of a, sort of like, who's going to do what at msnap. And Jesse says, we need you to be there in case there's like a legal issue that comes up that, you know, for you to comment on. And I was like, there's not going to be a legal issue. And he's like, really? Can you promise us that in advance? And I was like, no, of course I can't promise you. So he's like, yeah, so we need you to be there just in case. So I sat in the green room sober.
- [02:26]
Sarah Longwell
Nightmare.
- [02:27]
Andrew Weissmann
Nightmare. And then, you know, the way it works for something that's long term, that, you know, when you're, when you're covering something like that or you're doing sort of election coverage or you're doing sort of anything that's Sort of a long term thing. You sort of go on air and then there's a lot of downtime where you're chatting with the anchors and staff and all sorts of people. People. And Nicole Wallace comes in and she's just like. She was like, you do not recover from this. It is. She's like, it's over. Like, that is. She's like, there's no way. Even if it's a bad night, you can't recover from this because it's going to live and stay with you forever. I'm not trying to trigger everyone because people are probably gonna have like very strong views about this, but that was the last time I had a reaction of having to watch something where I rather have been home. Ch. Ground glass.
- [03:22]
Sarah Longwell
As you bring that up, I was watching. I was also on a panel that night at the Aspen Ideas Festival and we were hosting a live watch party with the entire festival of the debate. And it was. Jonathan Capehart was the moderator and I was, you know, on the panel with like Eddie Glau Jr. And a couple of. A couple other people. And so we did like a pre panel to be like, well, here's what Joe Biden needs to do tonight and here's what Donald Trump needs to, you know, whatever. And then we watched it with the whole room and then we had to come back up afterwards and like do an analysis.
- [03:56]
Andrew Weissmann
Okay, that's worse. Can I just say that's worse because you had to do it in public.
- [04:01]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, my God. And let me just tell you, I. It's funny that Nicole said that because I was on this panel and I was like, guys, that's it is. That's. It's. It's over. Like, he's not going to recover from this. And like, what we just saw was like a health event and people were mad at me in the, like the room was very split over whether. And I was like, look, if we can't even acknowledge this problem, we're not gonna be able to fix. I was just back at Ideas, the Aspen Ideas Festival, and I was having total PTSD from that moment.
- [04:30]
Andrew Weissmann
Yeah. So, you know, at some point that is going to be a very interesting. I don't know when it's going to be, you know, too soon, but it will be really interesting that people who were like, you're being unfair to him. We owe it to him. And the people who are like, you know, we're not doing anyone any favors by not being realistic. And it's not a. It's not about him. You know, I I do. At the time, I didn't understand the sort of two camps because I was so much in the. This isn't about has he been a good president or do we like his policies, et cetera. I mean, it, I was like this, this really isn't that conversation and you're confusing things. But I think it's, it would be interesting to have that because it was, it was so the people who like me and I was, I know I'm a small fry, but the more public people who were saying it's over there were such a, they took such enormous heat from within this sort of Democratic Party and from viewers and listeners thinking that they were somehow being disloyal to him. And so I just think it's an interesting topic in terms of like why there wasn't. And at least this is gonna tell you my partisanship in terms of where I was was on that issue, like why people weren't able to say it isn't about him and being loyal to him. It is, this is like, this has to be done in terms of the bigger issue of the country and there's a time and place to honor him and do all of those things, but this, you have to sort of, you have to sort of face reality. And that's why I thought, like you, it was so interesting because you're saying you and Nicole have so much experience and could see no matter what it was, you couldn't. Like, I think Nicole's point, I don't, I mean, I'm intuiting it was like, it doesn't really matter whether it was a one day thing or an aberrational thing. She was like, you can't recover from it because there's no explanation. Yeah.
- [06:43]
Sarah Longwell
You know, I remember the other, the Democrats on the panel saying no one watches debates as, as part of their reason why it wasn't going to be sort of a catastrophic result. And I was like, that doesn't matter. This is going to be everywhere. And I, I think it's going to
- [07:04]
Andrew Weissmann
be on YouTube and tick tock and commercials and I think, I mean, that's why it was like. It does. It's going to just get replayed over and over.
- [07:12]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, it was, it was strange to me that not. It was like a real Rorschach test for, for people. It was, it was strange to me that other people didn't see it the way I saw it. But I remember the tension in the room that night because the panel was split. And so like there was, people were like, we Just got to grab our sword and our shield and go fight. And there were people like, yeah. And then there were people like me that I was like, guys, we just watched the same thing. Like, people have eyes and ears and it's, it's like that was a health event. He said, we beat Medicare anyway. We're, we are, we are down the rabbit hole. But I will say that to your point. Right. Because we're going to bring it back to this. This Blanche hearing is. You want for the Blanche hearing. You wanted it to have a moment when you looked and said, blanche is cooked. They got him. Right. Like you. This is why nobody watches the hearing like you did. Right. Nobody sits through the hearing like you did. And I had it on intermittently, but I also knew that if they got him that I'd hear about it. Like. And actually I started watching it and this is where, I guess this is where we start our real conversation, which is to say I am deeply disappointed in how that hearing went. And I was just a minefield of missed opportunities. And I guess I just, I want your overall reaction. And then I've got some follow up questions.
- [08:39]
Andrew Weissmann
Sure. So I actually, before I get to sort of like, I have, I have like, I mean, there's, I started writing a list of like the missed opportunities and also things that needed to be asked, things that he said that weren't jumped on. And. But I wanted to maybe take a step back slightly. And by the way, we, this will be also sort of a connection to the other thing that happened this week, which is the, I don't even know what to call it. The Trump infomercial.
- [09:11]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, we're going to talk about this.
- [09:13]
Andrew Weissmann
Yeah, I understand that politicians and senators, that they are not trialers. They are not. Their skill set doesn't necessarily include asking questions and knowing how to ask questions and, and being in a trial setting and knowing how to sort of be precise. That there are many, many skill sets that can go into being a very good senator. And it would be useful for them to have that. But not everyone's going to. I would love to do a training session on like. So I fundamentally am a trial lawyer. One of the things that you need to know is not how to do direct examination, it's how to do cross examination. And here are two things. One is you have so much work to do beforehand. So if I am cross examining Sarah Longwell, I have to know your life better than you do. I, I need to have. Be incredibly detailed and precise. The amount of homework that goes into a Very good cross examination is. It's unbelievable. And because you need to feel hemmed in by the truth that, oh my God, I forgot that I did that. But, but Andrew knows it. So like I like and you and they. And you need to find times where you prove it to Sarah. So she's on the stand kind of thinking, I can do a little bit of like bobbing and weaving. It's like, oh, no, you can't. Sammy Gravano used to say that about. When he talked about what it's like being cross examined, he was like, you know, sometimes you can just out mount lie. Um, this is when he was saying what you can do as a mobster. He was like, sometimes you just can go out and out live, but a lot of times you can sort of bob and weave around questions. But if you're, you have to do a ton of homework and you have to be incredibly precise and detailed and then listen carefully to what the person's saying and jump on the opportunities. And the other is, I, it's not so much don't ask a question you don't know the answer to. I'm not a fan of that. That style. I have no problem since you're trying to get at the truth of letting the person talk. But if you know all of the facts and you're prepared, they usually by talking sink themselves. Because what you have to think about is what are they going to say in response to every question that you have? And you. It's very much like chess. You have to have thought that all through. So what can look like just like that? It's just happening in the instant, like without a lot of preparation. There's so much work that goes on behind the scenes and I feel like that was not done. It's like they sort of come in with their, here are my four questions. They're imprecise. Todd Blanche says stuff that is, you know, dodges it, doesn't answer it or says something that's ridiculous. Look. So here's an example. One point he says, well, we vigorously defend every lawsuit when at the Department of Justice. Like, that was one of his responses. I'm sorry, you need to be nimble enough to go tell me about how you did that when Donald Trump was suing. Let me talk about, really, tell me about how vigorous that was. So with everyone else, you who files that, that claim, you have been vigorous and you have said no, and you have said, you know what, it was filed after the statute of limitations. You brought up all these defenses. But with him you say, you know what? We're not going to do that. We're going to give you $1.776 billion. And then, by the way, can you tell me how you came up with that number? Because how is that tied to what actually happened, as opposed to being a good press number anyway? I just feel like they need. If they're not going to delegate the function, which, by the way, has happened, where they can sort of say, oh, you know, we're going to have Mike Chertoff do the questioning. I mean, I'm old enough to remember when Mike Chertoff was brought in as this sort of person who was going to ask questions of, like, I think it was the Clintons or people allied with the Clintons. Bill Clinton, actually. And if you're not going to do that, you need to do the hard work that goes into. How do you question.
- [14:08]
Sarah Longwell
Andrew, you said something else that I was thinking about a lot as I was watching the parts I was watching, which is, you also have to be able to listen. And I cannot believe the extent to which these senators feel the need to talk and make their own case. And then not like, here's the way that I would sum up Blanche's hearing is that the clip that everybody is seeing go around on the Internet isn't of the Blanch hearing at all. It's Jon Ossoff questioning the DNI guy. It's like a totally different hearing that is much less high profile. And what is Ossoff do? He says, can you tell me whether or not Joe Biden was the legitimate winner of the 2020 election? And the guy's like, I'm not going to get into this with you. He's like, you can just answer the question. And he just sits back and the guy unravels. Like, that was. That's the clip that's going around, because that was it. And it's like, these guys, I mean, and you say they're not lawyers, but, like, Amy Klobuchar is a trained lawyer.
- [15:10]
Andrew Weissmann
I mean, just you. Some of them are lawyers, but they're not.
- [15:15]
Sarah Longwell
I know what you mean. They're not trial lawyers, necessarily.
- [15:17]
Andrew Weissmann
They're not like trialers with. That's their number one thing. But you know what it's like. It is part of the job. And that's where, you know, you are on a certain committee. That's where Chuck Schumer, you know, should be choosing people to be on that committee who have that skill set. Right? I mean, you have a bunch of people to choose from. Um, and so that's where, you know, people, I feel like, don't do the hard work. But I agree with you. The other is, you know, get the person talking when you shouldn't be afraid of that. If you are right. And the whole thing is not a gotcha, it's not a sort of game. You know, this is where I think it helps that I was mainly a prosecutor. One of the reasons that I don't like the sort of don't add a. Don't ask a question you don't know the answer to is, is I'm there to get the truth. So I shouldn't be afraid of Sarah Long while telling her story. And if my point is that I think that at some point she is saying something that is not true, then confront it and just say so. You know, Ms. Longwell, you. I heard your answer. You just said X. Okay, let's go down that road. If, like, didn't you also say, why didn't you? I mean, don't be afraid of that. And you need to sort of lean in and in so many ways, like, let them talk, let them explain, and then confront them. So, for instance, Todd Blanche said, you know, he takes responsibility for the mistakes that were made in the production of the Epstein documents. Here's like a. Just say, Mr. Blanche, what's the first time that you have ever said that? Isn't it today? Prior to today, wasn't your position, everything was fine. But now that you're up for confirmation, your story has changed. And then you can make that a whole theme of your story has changed. You didn't turn over the documents to Alex Preddy for the state's investigation of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode. But earlier this week on Monday, lo and behold, you suddenly decided to do that, but you hadn't because you didn't want it to be an issue at this hearing. But we lived through months of people not getting justice. And now just because of this. And then you can tie it to, you know, after the hearing, you finally met with the Epstein victims only because Tillis made him. Exactly. I mean, it's like you are doing things only because you have to, not because it's the right thing and it's completely inconsistent with what you had done before. And by the way, did you hear that the victims have come out from that meeting and said one of the things that Todd Blanche said at that meeting was, well, you know, you need to go to the FBI and talk to them? Which, by the way, point one, they have. They're like what are you talking about? We've already been to the FBI. And then he says, well, the reason you need to do that is I, as the acting Attorney General, cannot open an investigation. Only the FBI can. Can I just call out bullshit if that is. If that is what was said? And I have zero reason to think that the victims would come out and lie about it. That's just simply not true. And that's where I've been in this situation. When you are at doj, you are there to protect and vindicate matters for the public and a lot of times for specific victims. And that means that you have to meet with them. And sometimes those are hard conversations because they are not getting everything they want or something has happened in the case that is really not. You have to explain to them why you are doing X and not. Yes. And those can be really difficult and people can be angry. And you know what? In general, people appreciate that they're hearing it from you and that they're hearing the truth. I learned that lesson from Robert Mueller. He was so good about doing that. And he would never, ever delegate that. Yeah, he would. I still remember him meeting with Muslim leaders because of some horrendous screw up at the FBI. And he was like, I'm doing it. And he. I remember him going into a room, took his jacket off, sat there with them, and he was like, I'm here until every single question that you have is answered by me. And like, you know, his schedule was thrown way off, but he was like, this is the most important thing I have to do. And so that's just not Todd. Blanche.
- [20:15]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, let's. Let's talk about Blanche a little more because I think we both agree that the Democratic questioners, in fact, I'm not sure that the best questioner wasn't actually John Cornyn. Like, he was maybe the only one who like, stuck anything.
- [20:26]
Andrew Weissmann
Yes. But also, because you know what? He also had. His mind was alive. 1. He thought of a really good point. It was clear to me that Todd lynch had not thought of it, which was, you know what? You have an enforceable agreement and you're pretending you don't. And there's a good example of like a lawyer, right. He's like going, you have a signed agreement and you're just pretending that you can vitiate it. And you're not even a frigging party to it. Like, you're. You. You never even, like actually showed up in court and suddenly you're pronouncing things for them. And I agree. Cornyn did it. Or the, the other clip that has gone around is a misstatement that.
- [21:09]
Sarah Longwell
That's where you said, I'm Trump's lawyer.
- [21:11]
Andrew Weissmann
Right. And that happened, by the way, with, again, a Republican senator, where he says, I'm his lawyer. I mean, I was his lawyer, which, you know, misstatement slash Freudian slip. I have, I was on with Lawrence o'. Donnell. And my view is I'm usually fine with saying, look, people can make mistakes in their long hearings and it's, et cetera. But the problem is that's so obviously a Freudian slip because he has acted like, in other words, if it was something that you, that somebody said who is truly independent, you'd be like, well, it's just, it's, it's not a 40 inc. Slip. It was just a mistake because he's never acted that way. But here he's like, the signed paper absolving Donald Trump of tax liability and his family and his companies, signed only by Todd Blanche, is proof positive that it is. You know, that's how he is acting as. Not as the Justice Department's lawyer, which, by the way, is like, so, so when the midterms come, or the President says, I want a third term or whatever, comes up with some cockamamie scheme for how he's going to kind of de facto get a third term, whatever it is, or he says, I want DOJ to go and seize ballots. Todd Blanche is not going to be Elliot Richardson. He is not going to be the person who says the issue is not whether the President can lawfully direct me. The question is whether I'm going to do it. Yeah. And I am. And so he is basically saying, no, no, no. I am all in on the idea that the Justice Department is not independent. And if the President has the power to do it, I'm just going to act as if I am any other Cabinet official. I mean, there's none of the lessons of Watergate. And that, by the way, would have been another area to go down and say, you know, if you put him in the Elliot Richardson position and say, so during Watergate, you are telling us that you would have been like, I'm fine firing the special counsel because he has the power to. So there were just so many missed opportunities. And this is one where the smorgasbord, however you say that word. Yeah, you got it. The choices were like, up one side and down the other. I mean, this literally is like shooting fish in a barrel.
- [23:34]
Sarah Longwell
Embarrassment of riches, a buffet of options. I've been throwing these types of things around either. It is amazing to me, with the amount of fodder that they had to work with, that this is where we ended up. I was deeply disappointed. So, not surprisingly, Blanche's testimony covered Epstein and specifically Blanche's handling of Epstein issues like Ghislaine Maxwell and the release of the case files. I was disappointed it wasn't more of it. I thought Cory Booker was one of the few people who kind of got in there on this. Did you think they should have focused more on this or what did you think about what they chose to focus on?
- [24:09]
Andrew Weissmann
Well, so I had listened to you about that being something that would be really salient to the public and also could potentially be something that Republicans could rally around as being important. And it wouldn't be just on this issue as much as it's important to meet with the victims. That is something that should have happened, could have happened. But that's, you're, if you're the Democrats, that's, you're not playing for that, which is like, oh, I'd like you to meet and check off a box. And there were things that, that Todd Blanche said that are absolutely false. So again, I, I was stunned that that was not followed up. His claim was Donald Trump has always wanted these documents, the Epstein documents, turned over. He's been saying that from day one, that of his second presidency, which, by the way, again, an embarrassment of riches to disprove that. I mean, start with, if that's true, why didn't you do it? So Todd Lent has an answer for that. He says the reason we didn't turn things over sooner is because we legally could not.