The GOAT Episode

Summary

The Bulwark: "The GOAT Episode" – August 7, 2026

Hosts: JVL & Tim Miller
Podcast Theme: Humorous, insightful discussion of political media, personalities, and culture, with an emphasis on The Bulwark’s outsider status and authentic rapport with their audience.

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Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by JVL and Tim Miller sitting in for Sarah Longwell, serves up signature Bulwark banter while tackling topics from their recent Inc. Magazine profile to media oddities like Calista Gingrich's uncanny video for Switzerland, a deep (and comedic) analysis of Senator Thom Tillis’s perplexing new book, and speculation about Tucker Carlson making a serious bid for president. The dynamic between JVL and Tim is relaxed and irreverent—as they note, it’s just the two of them, free to be “authentic me.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Bulwark’s Inc. Magazine Profile

Timestamps: 00:22–04:09

• Humor about Business Acumen
  • Both hosts riff on not coming from a business background and never intending to build a media company.
  • Tim: “I'm not a business media consumer… I'm not a businessman. You're not a businessman. I think I wrote the email to our subscribers about this profile today that I didn't go to business school… And yet here we are. We did well by accident.” (00:46–01:40)
  • Emphasize authenticity as their “special sauce.”
• Profile Reaction
  • Both appreciate the recognition but poke fun at awkwardness: “The reporter is kind of a hippie guy and he's writing for a business magazine. And that's just what makes America wonderful in a way.” (02:30–02:58)
• Clarifying the Financials
  • Tim jokes about friends texting him after seeing headlines about the Bulwark being a “$20 million profitable business,” clarifies it's more nuanced: “There need to be a couple of words in between all those.” (03:20–03:39)

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2. Cringe Corner: Calista Gingrich & The Uncanny Valley

Timestamps: 04:09–08:19

• Calista’s Video Message to Switzerland
  • Play and react to her stilted, robotic delivery with only two blinks: “I'm not sure any part of her face except for her eyelids and her lips, like, there's nothing else is moving.” (05:13)
• Inhuman Visuals
  • Dissection of the “uncanny valley” effect of Calista’s appearance. Tim points out incongruous aesthetics: “...there's the face without a wrinkle at all. That is like a porcelain doll. And it almost… barely look like they connect.” (05:33–06:31)
• AI Content Parody
  • JVL: “If you had brought this clip to me and said, you wouldn't believe we found the worst AI Slop today you've ever seen and played it for me, I would have said, yes, that is the worst AI Slop I've ever seen.” (06:31)
• Social Media Observations
  • Tim enjoys Calista’s social media posts where she uses face-tuning filters solely on herself: “Her face will be fully facetuned, and then Newt's face is like a gargoyle.” (07:05)
• Coincidental Hairstyle
  • Tim wonders if Trump’s “new wig” was inspired by Calista’s hair: “I think he might have gone to the… wig store and said, give me the Kalista.” (07:37)

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3. Book Cover Analysis: Thom Tillis’s "How to Lose Friends & Antagonize Presidents"

Timestamps: 08:19–16:01

• Cover Dissection
  • The hosts do a “theater of the mind” visual breakdown of the “cluttered” book cover featuring Thom Tillis clapping for himself and gold-framed photos of figures like Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem (on a horse), RFK Jr. (“trying to pinch one off”), and Pete Hegseth (drinking from a cup).
  • Tim: “It's a very deter. Yeah, Deter. Stephen Miller. Pretty gay Nazi post there, for sure. And then RFK who’s taking a crap.” (10:07, 10:15)
• Cringe and Self-Delusion
  • The hosts are mystified at Tillis’s self-image (“Has anyone’s impression of themselves been so far afield from their actual self?”) and joke that if this were a Scaramucci memoir, the boldness would make sense, but “for it to be Thom Tillis…” (10:34–10:41)
• Mocking the Premise
  • Argument that Tillis didn’t antagonize or lose friends—he confirmed them for the cabinet.
  • Tim: “You think Pete is. Has. Is mad at Tom Tillis?…You allowed me to become the Secretary of Defense. RFK, you think RFK thinks. It's like it's the Mad Men. Do you think Trump even thinks about Thom Tillis at all?” (11:35–12:09)
• Psychoanalysis of GOP Courage
  • Tim theorizes that mild criticism feels like major drama to GOP figures, who then expect praise for relatively minor stands: “These guys think that kind of mild discomfort and mild criticism is like a really big attack on their person because they’re pussies.” (12:41)
  • Quotes Tillis’s predictable rationalization: “I lost friends and I antagonized people. I showed courage. Why aren't you guys honoring me? You're not. Oh, I guess… I gotta stay with the fascists.” (14:11)
• JVL’s Note:
  • Suggests perhaps a dramatic reading of the Tillis book would be entertaining, as with their JD Vance readings.

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4. Hypothetical: Tucker Carlson Running for President

Timestamps: 16:01–17:06

• Tucker Has Outflanked Tillis
  • JVL points out that Tucker has openly criticized Trump much more harshly than Thom Tillis ever has: “Tucker called him demonic.” (16:27)
  • Tim, sardonic: So “Tom, who sees himself as having really stood up… in fact is way behind where, like Tucker and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert are.” (16:41)
• Minimal Elaboration
  • They tease this topic as a conversation for "the other side," implying it will be behind the paywall.

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5. Reflections on Paywall & Insider Community

Timestamps: 17:06–18:06

• Jokes about Value
  • The hosts joke about whether Tim’s content should ever be paywalled (“people would riot because your stuff is too good”—17:10), while hyping the value of their paywalled show and the work JVL puts out.
• Community Selling Point
  • Tim: “That's the special sauce we got going. So, anyway, it's great…I want the people... to feel like they can come here and have a hang and that. Like, I'm not going to bullshit them…we can rant together, we can commiserate…” (02:30–02:57, echoed here)
• Final Pitch
  • Both hosts encourage signups and joining the Bulwark community for more content.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Business Authenticity:
  “We did well by accident. That's kind of the point of the Inc[.] profile in some ways. Obviously not completely accident, but, you know… that's just never been my world and—none of ours, really. And yet here we are.”
  — Tim Miller (01:13–01:40)

• On The Inc. Profile’s Headline:
  “There need to be a couple of words in between all those. I got a couple people that are like, ooh, you're paying for dinner tonight. No, we finally got to be profitable and we brought in 20 million. It was like two sentences like, I like waffles and I like pancakes.”
  — Tim Miller (03:20–03:39)

• On Calista Gingrich’s Video:
  “She only blinks twice during that entire message… I'm not sure any part of her face except for her eyelids and her lips, like, there's nothing else is moving.”
  — JVL (05:13)

• On GOP Self-Delusion:
  “Has anyone’s impression of themselves been so far afield from their actual self?... Did he vote against any of those nominations?”
  — Tim Miller & JVL (10:41, 11:35)

• On GOP "Courage":
  “These guys think that kind of mild discomfort and mild criticism is like a really big attack on their person because they’re pussies…because he did that, he should be praised. And here’s the key about Thom Tillis. Because he was not praised, particularly by us, particularly by the media... do you know who the real enemy ends up being in his mind? Us.”
  — Tim Miller (12:41–14:11)

• On Tucker Outflanking Them All:
  “Tucker called him demonic... That is funny to me that Tom, who sees himself as having really stood up... is way behind where, like Tucker and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert are.”
  — JVL & Tim Miller (16:27–16:47)

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Episode Flow Summary

• The hosts open with irreverent banter about their outsider status in media/business.
• Effusive but tongue-in-cheek response to their Inc. profile and the “mystique” of their success.
• Deep-dive comedic takedowns of political media oddities (Calista Gingrich, or “AI slop”).
• Hilarious and insightful psychoanalysis of Senator Thom Tillis and the delusions of GOP self-mythologizing.
• Brief but sharp observation on the ironic dynamic where figures like Tucker Carlson outflank “resistance” Republicans.
• Closes with affectionate in-jokes about the Bulwark community and a plug for their premium offering.

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For listeners and would-be subscribers, this episode is a compelling showcase of The Bulwark’s blend of authenticity, humor, sharp political analysis, and genuine camaraderie.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Hello, everyone. This is JVL here with my best friend Tim Miller, sitting in for Sarah Longwell. Tim, it's been a long time since it was just the two of us together with no one else around, no one who can see.

[A]

Just the two of us. We can make it if we try. I haven't been on the Secret in so long.

[B]

It's been a while.

[A]

I feel free being on the Secret. You should. It's like, you know, advantage of this weight off my shoulders.

[B]

Full advantage of this. Because we got a big show today very quickly. Very nice profile of us in Inc Magazine. Is that how it's called?

[A]

Inc. I would call it Ink.

[B]

Obviously, this is it. These are the jokes people enjoy.

[A]

I'm not a business media consumer. It's kind of the point of the article, actually. It's a nice transition. I'm not a businessman. You're not a businessman. I'm not a businessman. I think I wrote the email to our subscribers about this profile today that I didn't go to business school. This is a big piece of disagreement between me and my father in my younger years. Even if you don't want. It's good to have, you know, wanted me to go to business school.

[B]

Get your mba.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It just never goes to waste.

[A]

Yeah, it could. It could help you in the future. And in some ways, turns out, he was right. Probably could have helped me a little bit on the other. On the other hand, we did well by accident. That's kind of the point of the Inca profile in some ways. Obviously not completely accident, but, you know, this. That's just never been my world and. And none of ours, really. And yet here we are.

[B]

And yet here we are. It's, you know, we're living the American dream.

[A]

Okay, so there's nothing else about Ink. You don't want to say anything else?

[B]

It was very nice.

[A]

I.

[B]

Look, I was just happy to be mentioned in a profile of the Bulwark.

[A]

I was waiting. I was waiting for you to say

[B]

that that is not a thing that happens or often.

[A]

You were pictured. You were interviewed.

[B]

I was even pictured not in the lead photo, but in one of the subsequent photos. I was there.

[A]

You guys. You guys. You guys talked about business strategy because you kind of have, like, taken it up as an advocation, whereas I'm, like, actively hostile to that. And just like, Sarah's got this and, you know, we just keep on. Keep it on. My job is good. Business is just kind of. Your job is conscious. Just being myself. Authentic me.

[B]

You're in the Tim Miller, Business. And business is good.

[A]

And I want you, and I want the people that are listening to Secret Podcast to, like, being. Feel like they can come here and have a hang and that. Like, I'm not going to bullshit them. And if they're in their life where they don't want to talk politics with their friends because their friends might have voted for Trump, or, you know, where their spouse is sick of hearing them rant about what happened to the news, they come here. We can rant together, we can commiserate, we can be angry together, we can laugh, we can mock. And turns out, that's what, you know, that's the special sauce we got going. So, anyway, it's great. I love it. It was nice. The guy came to my house, even. It was. It was kind of a weird dichotomy. The reporter is kind of a hippie guy and he's writing for a business magazine. And that's just what makes America wonderful in a way, you know? And so, anyway, we appreciate the attention. It's not very Weissmann. I have one other thought, so. Sorry. One of them.

[B]

Okay. God.

[A]

I've been getting some texts about like, ooh, you made the framing of the headline. They're like, 20 million profitable business. And it was like, well, I was like, there need to be a couple of words in between all those. I got a couple people that are like, ooh, you're paying for dinner tonight. No, we finally got to be profitable and we brought in 20 million. It was like two sentences like, I like waffles and I like pancakes. But, you know, we're doing. Hopefully one day when there's President John Ossoff, Daddy Ellison will call up Sarah and be like, hey, seems like we're out of the good graces of the new administration. What do you think?

[B]

Would JVL like to run cnn?

[A]

And we'll say no, but then maybe that. Then maybe the win.

[B]

Yeah, that's great. All right, listen. Apologies in advance to people who are. Listen only because we are going to have a couple vis elements in this show today. So if you are ever like, you know, maybe I'll watch the video version, this would be the time to do it. I will talk you through it. Theater of the Mind style. But we're gonna start with a video message from one Callista Gingrich to the people of Switzerland.

[A]

I've not got a chance to watch this. I'm going blind. Hello, I'm Calista Gingrich. On behalf of the United States Embassy, I wish the SW people a Happy National Day. Today, Switzerland celebrates its independence, freedom, and democracy, values Americans deeply understand and cherish. The United States is proud to celebrate with you as a friend and partner. Happy National Day. Is she real?

[B]

So she only blinks twice during that entire message. She blinks twice. She blinks twice. I'm not sure any part of her face except for her eyelids and her lips, like, there's nothing else is moving. Everything.

[A]

Here's the other thing.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

It's uncanny Valley. It's a strange face. But here's, I think, another problem that I noticed, and I just. I only got to watch that one time through. And just kind of. There's the shock of initially seeing kind of this inhuman figure. And so then I'm trying to kind of pay attention, to have a take. One thing I noticed in just a few seconds after I blacked out was this happens everywhere. I'm getting wrinkles. Wrinkles happen. And if you want to do Botox, that's fine, too. That happens. But there's this contrast between, like, a very thin neck that is. That looks like person's neck would look at her age, which is fine, which we honor. And then there's the face without a wrinkle at all. That is like a porcelain doll. And it almost. And they almost barely look like they connect because the neck is a little. And so it's kind of like. It almost looks like a porcelain doll head kind of levitating over an old lady's neck.

[B]

And I. I don't. My thing here is not even about the. The lookest aspect of this, I don't think lookest. Pure AI Aspect of it, with that weird, indistinguishable gradient, navy blue background and the way her shoulders don't move and the face. All I'm saying is if you had brought this clip to me and said, you wouldn't believe we found the worst AI Slop today you've ever seen and played it for me, I would have said, yes, that is the worst AI Slop I've ever seen.

[A]

Well, now you know that it's realistic. Well, you know Calista, so I would have known it's real because it's only Calista. And I really cherish her content activations because they're all pretty astonishing. My favorite ones are when she does the face tuning only on her and not on Newt. Sometimes she'll post on Instagram, and so, like, her face will be fully facetuned, and then Newt's face is like a gargoyle, and you're like ah, McVeigh's doing one or the other class. Or one or both. Or the other. I have one note, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do wonder if the video was the inspiration for Trump's new wig, because his new hair is looking very Calista ish. You know, it's like, it's full and stiff, and I don't know. I think he might have gone to the haberdashery. What's a wig store? Might have gone to the wig store store and said, give me the kalista.

[B]

I think Stan Sitwell was the inspiration for his new rug.

[A]

Oh, from Arrested Development.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

He had Begley Jr.

[A]

Character. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, boy. I'm going through. Yeah, Stan. Sam Stitwell. Probably better than. Great point.

[B]

Got. Stick it to her. So, okay, we got to move on very quickly to Thom Tillis, who's having a book and the COVID of his book, how to Lose Friends and Antagonize Presidents by Thom Tillis was. It was released, and it's. Tim, can you do the theater of the mind for the people who are.

[A]

Yeah, I don't like that. You said very quickly as a lead into this, because I could have done the entire secret show about just this cover image. There's just so much subtext. There is so much psychological analysis that we could do, but I'll try to narrow it down as much as possible. So the book cover, like Calista, actually, it's a navy blue gradient background, white letters, how to lose friends and antagonize presidents, as you said. And then they have their. It's a cluttered cover. First thumb is in a suit with the traditional Trump red tie, looking up at the headline or at the title of the book. Excuse me. And clapping. So I guess clapping at himself really

[B]

looks like a Please clap.

[A]

Yeah, I guess he's about to clap for himself. I don't know why. He's in a clapping motion. And then scattered around are. It looks like four portraits that have the type of frame that Trump puts every picture in in the Oval Office. Like, they have a ornate gold frame. And the portraits are of Stephen Miller, Christy Noem on a horse.

[B]

RF Stephen Miller doing the gayest pose I've ever seen. Right. Is Steve Miller. Stephen Miller is very. It's a very deter. Yeah, Deter. Stephen Miller.

[A]

Pretty. Yeah. Pretty gay Nazi post there, for sure. Pose for sure. And then rfk who's taking a crap. Right.

[B]

He's trying to pinch one off.

[A]

Yeah. Trying to get. He's a little constipated. And. And then that's Pete Hegseth drinking out of a cup. That's. I think that's a subtle comment about how Pete was an alcoholic. So it's one of these things where it's like, this would be a pretty cringe book cover, but, like, you could get why you got there if it was like Scaramucci, how to Lose Friends and antagonize Presidents. And it's a picture of Scaramucci and you're like, okay, like this. A little self aggrandizing and like a little cringe. But it's like, Scaramucci can sell that book. It's like, he did antagonize the president. He did lose a lot of friends. He did criticize all of these people for it to be Thom Tillis. It just makes you wonder, has anyone's impression of themselves been so far afield from their actual self? And how does this happen? Tom Tills, apparently based on the COVID of the book, not just a comment that he made, not throw over the COVID of book. Key things. What defines. Defines him and what defines his career is that he antagonized Donald Trump and that he lost friends over it. And he cites in particular, I assume, these four friends, Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem, rfk, and Pete Hegset.

[B]

Did he vote against any of those nominations?

[A]

No.

[B]

Ansley, can you. Can you effort that for us, Ansley?

[A]

No, I know you don't have to effort.

[B]

Oh, you do. Okay, there you go. He voted for Kristi Noem and RFK Jr. And Pete.

[A]

Okay, so he made them all in the cabinet. He gave Pete Hegseth something beyond his wildest dreams. He made a totally unqualified, formally drunken, allegedly weekend talk show co host with no experience, no qualifications, the Secretary of Defense of the most powerful country in the history of the world. At one time, he gave Pete this. You think Pete is. Has. Is mad at Tom Tillis? People must be like, you're mad at me. Why do you think I'm mad at you? What. Why would I be mad at you? You allowed me to become the Secretary of Defense. Rfk. You think RFK thinks. It's like it's the Mad Men. Do you think Trump even thinks about Thom Tillis at all? Trump struggles to remember his name sometimes when it comes up in conversations. Like, he did not antagonize any of these people. He put them on the cabinet. At times he would speak out a little bit from here or there. And to me, I think this is the psychological thing that I just want to get your take on. That I think is so fascinating about this because I think it explains a lot. And kind of what we were talking about the other day, about how they rationalized what they did around the blanche confirmation, and I think it's that these guys think that kind of mild discomfort and mild criticism is like a really big attack on their person because they're pussies. Like, it's a really big attack on them. Right. And so they feel like if they do anything that causes some people in their little clique, their MAGA clique, to criticize them, then they showed a lot of courage and that they. They really shook up the apple cart, you know, and that. That it was really a kind of.

[B]

They were willing to say that the president, President Trump, was getting bad advice from an advisor. Not a lot of people are willing to say that he gets bad advice from some of his advisors.

[A]

Tom tells us they were. Yeah. And so because he went that far and antagonized the president that barely thinks about him and lost these friends. Were these people even friends? That's another side thing we could do. If we did a whole hour on it, because he did that, he should be praised. And here's the key about Tom Tillis. Because he was not praised, particularly by us, particularly by the media, by the other elites, because he was still criticized. Do you know who the real enemy ends up being in his mind? Us. He gets mad at us because he's like, guys, look at this. I lost friends and I antagonized people. I showed courage. Why aren't you guys honoring me? You're not. Oh, I guess. I guess I'm just going to stay with the fascists. I guess you gotta stay with the fascists. I mean, what more do you guys want from me? You want me to actually do something to stop them? You want me to actually to stop a confirmation? You know, you want me to hold up a priority of Trump's. I sent some strongly worded letters. I asked a harsh question or two in a hearing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's really astonishing.

[B]

Only even Thom Tillis seems to agree that only libs have agency. Right? I mean, Thom Tillis's own worldview is shaped around the idea that nobody to his right has any. And he has no agency really either. Right. It's only everybody else.

[A]

I guess I would disagree on that second part. I think he thinks that he demonstrated a ton of agency.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Well, maybe that's right. Yeah.

[A]

But only the. But how much could you have thought more? What more could you have want from a man like Thom Tillis, a brave Man. A man who said no to Trump, like, three times, once in person.

[B]

I mean, not a hard no, but a temporary no. Yeah, he said a temporary maybe.

[A]

And do you know what happened to Thom Tillis? He got criticized. A couple people got mad at him. There were some arguments, and, boy, who suffered more than him? Anyway, I could do a whole hour. Maybe we'll have to do another hour. Maybe we'll have to do what we did with the JD Vance book and just redo a reading together. It's probably what we'd have to do.

[B]

So this is all very interesting, and it leads us to the next section because I want us to have a conversation about Tucker and about the idea that Tucker is maybe going to seriously run for president. And one of the things that's funny about this is that Tucker has much more harshly criticized Trump than Thom Tillis.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Tucker called him demonic. Tucker has talked about how terrible the Iran war is and all this. And so that is funny to me that Tom, who sees himself as having really stood up to, you know, to these guys, in fact, is way behind where, like Tucker and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert are. Right.

[A]

Which is not really. Which is not a compliment to any of them, obviously, but is a. I think, a reality check for Thaum.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I. I want to have a long talk about this tucker thing in 2028, because I. I am of two minds on it, but we're going to do that on the other side. So, you know, I. I was looking at some data.

[A]

We.

[B]

We paywall. Very few things, Tim. We paywall nothing you do because people would riot because your stuff is too good. It's too good.

[A]

I'm sorry. Don't do that. People need embarrassing.

[B]

The people need it. You didn't say it about yourself. It would be embarrassing if you said it about yourself. I'm embarrassed, but we paywall a couple things. This show is one of them. I think it's a very good show. I think it is among the seven or eight best shows we do on the Bulwark Podcast Network.

[A]

And so it's worth the money. And we also pay your way while your newsletter. And we should charge more for it. That's my opinion. We're not charging enough for your newsletter.

[B]

I've been cooking. I don't know if you've been reading this week.

[A]

I've been reading. I read.

[B]

But I have been cooking this week.

[A]

You were cooking. Who else is churning out to 2,000 words a day like this? It's great. It's crazy. So we should be charging more. I've been saying it, but I'm not a businessman, so what do I know? But I've been, you know, occasionally been like, I think maybe two bucks more a month for jv.

[B]

Come sign up.

[A]

That's me.

[B]

Come sign up. Listen to the rest of it. Sure.

[A]

I get the price up.

[B]

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