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- [00:00]
A
Welcome back to the Bulwark. My name is Will Sommer. I'm joined today by Sarah Matthews. We are here to discuss a real creep in the House of Representatives, a guy named Chuck Edwards. And I had to have Sarah here because she's a former congressional staffer herself. Now, the backstory here is that earlier this week, the House Ethics Committee recommended a censure for Edwards, who is a North Carolina Republican, for possibly violating sexual harassment rules against staffers. Sarah, when you saw this story, you know, as a former staffer yourself, what did you make of all this?
- [00:30]
B
Yeah, unfortunately, I feel like the Hill runs rampant with this type of behavior where you have this power dynamic of senators and congressmen and women who are working with people who are much younger than them typically. Like in this case, you look at Chuck Edwards, he was 65 years old, and the women who have accused him of inappropriate behavior behavior were women in their early 20s. That is how Capitol Hill is made up of. And there's always been stories of these members of Congress maybe being a little weird, where they're going out and drinking with their staffers and they're putting themselves in these types of environments. But at the end of the day, we have to remember that these politicians are in charge and that they control the employment of these folks. And so they're just. It's a very different environment than like, say, a corporate America where I don't think you could get away with this behavior maybe as easily. There really isn't an HR department on the Hill. So I looked at this story and I thought, unfortunately, know that there are many women on the Hill who have experience, maybe if it's not even at the hands of a member of Congress who's doing it, but they've experienced some type of inappropriate behavior from their superiors, whether that be, you know, men or women who are above them in employment and in the rankings in the offices. And so I just, it didn't really surprise me. But reading some of the specifics of what he did for these women was particularly creepy. So that did surprise me a little bit.
- [02:01]
A
I mean, there's so many crazy details here. So, I mean, this involves two female staffers in their 20s, one of whom he like weirdly elevates to like a really high position. I think she was an intern. And he said, you know, you should be a scheduler while she's still in college. And so kind of making her like a full time employee, you know, if I'm understanding the report right. And there's a lot of stuff that is like, it's not like assault or like really, like, you know, anything that rises to like, like what we might think of as a previously, like a me too level. But there's a lot of like, creepy, weird behavior. And I've heard primarily from FEMA female reporters on the Hill about similar things where it's just like these old guys, you know, and it's like, well, if you want to get the scoop, maybe we got to go on a date tonight. Like just weird, gross stuff. And, and there's such a pattern of behavior laid out here in this report. What are those details that you, you mentioned that really jumped out at you?
- [02:50]
B
Yeah, no, and I think you're right that this is an unspoken thing in Washington where this is a pattern of behavior with these old men who are typically, you know, spending time away from their families. In the case of Chuck Edwards, he's married, but, you know, they spend a lot of time in Washington away from their families. And, and yeah, maybe they, they look at these staffers as, oh, well, this is my family here. But it's really inappropriate when you look at what he was doing for these young women. One of the instances that struck me was that he skipped votes to go over to one of the staffers houses to help her decorate her Christmas tree. I can assure you, I worked on the Hill. I would never want my boss stepping foot in my apartment or my house. That just feels like such a weird boundary to cross. I don't think that, that, that is appropriate to, for him to come over and do something like that and also just to skip votes. Like, you're also skipping out on doing your job because you want to be spending time outside of the office with this younger staffer of yours while you're married feels really odd. And then the other one that really struck me was there was this picture that was included in the report of the. I believe it was like over 30 tubs of ice cream that he sent to one of the women after she went through. I believe it was a breakup and he sent her 30 tubs of ice cream. And she even said in the text messages to him that she thought it was a little excessive. And I'm like, I don't, I don't understand what he's trying to do there. If he maybe like, you know. Yeah, you mentioned there's no instances where he tries to sexually assault them or any of the language in his texts to them or anything that is sexual in nature. I think that he made some comments on their looks, but it's not like he's proposing any sort of sexual activity between him and either of these women, but still, like the. The lines that he was crossing. It's just inappropriate for a boss to be doing this to women whose employment he has in their control.
- [04:55]
A
Yeah, exactly. I mean, the ice cream thing is crazy. He basically, like, you know, had some. A courier doordash, whatever, take, you know, 30 tubs of ice cream. And it's in the report, just all this ice cream. And over and over in these text messages from the staffers he proposes. He's kind of like, he's very much, you know, advancing his closeness with these staffers and saying, well, why don't I come over to your house? Why don't we go out tonight? Whatever? And then they're saying, oh, gee, that won't be necessary. Oh, it's too much. You know, I mean, it's. It's just creepy, weird stuff. You know, just in case people are wondering about this Christmas tree thing. To be clear, this was not a Christmas tree decorating party or anything. I mean, this is very much him inviting himself over and saying, I'd love to help you. You know, alone. He did yard work on one of their house, their apartments, or what have you. I mean, it is. You know, Axios has done a lot of great reporting in the lead up to this. People really want the gruesome details. And one of it was he gave the staffers matching guns, one that was blue and one that was pink, you know, gifts of jewelry, I think, worth over $1,000. And just over the way he would talk to them or send messages. That was like, when one of them finally quit because she felt, you know, my boss is a creep. I'm out of here. That he. He said, you know, this is one of the most heartbreaking days of my life. I mean, just really. Just really inappropriate and just weird, weird ways to interact.
- [06:11]
B
No. And it makes me sad for these women that they had to endure that, because you shouldn't have to decide between pushing back on your boss's creepy advances like this and saying no, because obviously there is just this inherent power dynamic where he controls their employment. So even if these are unwanted advances, advances on his part, like, what are these women really supposed to do? You know, getting a job on Capitol Hill is. It's highly competitive and very sought after. When you're starting out in politics, particularly, that's where Most people in D.C. get their start. People always say, that's one of my biggest tips to people when they want to start a career in politics. I'm like, you need to intern on the Hill or get a job on the Hill Hill and work your way up and then you can kind of branch off and figure out what you want to do from there. But it's a really good starting point. So to think that these were young women just starting out their careers and then having to deal with this unwanted attention from their creepy old boss who's married. Like, no one gives you a playbook for how to navigate that. And so I, I just feel sorry for them that, that that was their experience starting out in Washington, having to deal it with this. And I will say that I worked for plenty of members who, who were great, great members and would never do anything like this. And there are plenty of them who make up, you know, the Hill. But unfortunately there, there is a lot of this type of behavior where, like you outlined with reporters and some of these members being creepy to them. And it's just, it's unfortunate because it is kind of one of those unspoken things in Washington.
- [07:47]
A
I think it says a lot about Chuck Edwards that this has risen to the level of the House Ethics Committee because, like, you have to be a real big time creep in con for the House or the Senate to take action. I mean, it's, as you said, I mean, this is like pretty common behavior there. And one of the challenges in this in Congress is that unlike if you were doing this at a federal agency or at a corporation, there's not really like Congress is kind of its own thing. And so the amount of oversight or punishment for someone like this is really only going to be as much as their colleagues see fit to do or is maybe politically acceptable to them. So there's really a lot of leeway these members have.
- [08:26]
B
Yeah. And what struck me is that the House Ethics Committee didn't recommend that he be expelled. They just recommended that he be censured. And it, I mean, now that these, they're out of their own recess for August, it seems like this censure wouldn't even potentially come until September if it does end up happening. But to me, I would think that there would be more Republicans who are saying, look, he clearly crossed a line and this type of behavior is unacceptable on the Hill and that he should resign and step aside. But you're not really seeing that. You're kind of seeing people not address there, want to talk about it, or point to the ethics investigation. And it just, it's interesting to me to see this all play out as we're having the Max Miller debacle. Play out. And Corey Mills and all these other Republicans who are kind of facing different serious allegations when it comes to abuse or sexual abuse or whatever it is. And then you have this situation as well. And when I look at Democrats, though, they forced Graham Platner out of the race. They forced Eric Swalwell to resign. And you're not really seeing that similar push or pressure on the Republican side, which is pretty interesting, too, not to
- [09:39]
A
dwell on it too much, but I think ultimately that comes down to Donald Trump.