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- [00:00]
A
Maybe someday we can do a focus group on a topic where you don't feel like you're on a high wire for 45 minutes.
- [00:06]
B
Did you feel that way? Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Focus group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark, and this week we're covering a key wedge issue that's emerged in the Democratic Party in the last couple of years. I'm talking about America's relationship with Israel. Israel has become a lightning rod in primaries across the country, including in the last few weeks. And I want to pull apart how, how and why it has happened that Israel is now such a big issue in the Democratic Party. And look, there's been an obvious shift among Democrats since Israel and Hamas have been at War since 2023. According to Pew Research, 55% of Democrats held an unfavorable view of Israel in 2022, and that number was up to 69 in 2025. There was a similar bump among Republicans during that time. It went from 27 unfavorable up to 37%, driven almost entirely by young people. I Democrats you're going to hear in today's focus groups would register in that poll as having an unfavorable view towards Israel. It's a almost universal opinion. But that does not mean that your mental caricature of the median Democrat should be a college aged protester. People are a bit more nuanced than that. My guest today is Tommy Vitor, co host of Pod Save America and POD Save the World and Kenyan alumni just like me.
- [01:31]
A
Hey, man, great to see you.
- [01:33]
B
Great to see you. You know, I got a note the other day from a Kenyan math teacher saying that she loved the Bulwark and I was like, kenyan math teacher? What was that? I didn't know they had you guys there.
- [01:44]
A
Yeah, for listeners that one of the great things about Kenyon is you didn't have to take math, you didn't have to do a lot of hard sciences, you could just read books.
- [01:51]
B
Read books, man, read books. As I tell people sometimes a true story that in my high school they invented a class for me called the History of Math so that I could write papers. Rather take trig. My brother was two years younger. We were in the same algebra class. And that is why I went to Kenyon College. No math requirement.
- [02:10]
A
Yeah, I took calculus in high school. Luckily, one of my best friend's father was the teacher and helped me. Tutored me along the way, but yeah, no, not my strong suit anyway.
- [02:20]
B
Yeah, look at us, both of us. Getting what is it? What is what? That was our privilege, Tommy. We both, we got through school despite our absence of. Now I just sit here and look at polling all the time and think I wish I'd paid a little bit
- [02:34]
A
more attention, a little more numeracy.
- [02:35]
B
So I want to test a thesis of mine on you because I like having you on for these conversations because you and I are not always aligned on these things. A handful of these DSA aligned candidates have been winning primaries this year like in New York, Denver, Philadelphia. And I just wrote something making the case that what's going on in the party is a lot less ideological than the left might like to think, that it has less to do with. With left wing policies. Exactly. And more to do with how angry voters are. But I will also stipulate that there are issues that come up quite a bit now and Israel is one of them, affordability is the other one. And so that those kinds of things have sort of converged to make DSA candidates slightly more palatable at this moment because they're strong ideological, whatever gives voters the perception they are fighters, which is what they're looking for. But how ideological do you think this fight actually is? Like, do you think this factionalism is real or is it more online?
- [03:36]
A
That is a really good question. I do think as political professionals we probably over index on our assumption that policy is driving political decisions. When you're right, it's more like I like this person, their character, are they a fighter, etc. I think what we are seeing on the left and the far right at the moment is rage at the establishment, rage at the status quo, feeling like the current system is broken and not working for anyone. And that is playing out in elections in New York, Colorado, all over the place, right? When it comes to foreign policy. I think when Bernie Sanders ran in 2016, he was almost entirely focused on domestic policy issues. To the extent he talked about foreign policy was like trade, but he was like Medicare for all, taxing the rich, free college. Like that was the feature. The foreign policy stuff was an afterthought. I kind of feel like on the left in the sort of Bernie adjacent political world, that's just not the case anymore. I feel like progressives are as focused on foreign policy, especially Israel, Gaza related issues as they are Medicare for all. At least in terms of just like the things you hear people talking about.
- [04:46]
B
Why do you think that is? We'll talk about this as we go on, but I was watching that Michigan Senate debate and I think El Sayed Said a PAC money about Haley Stevens like in his first two sentences. And there is no doubt, I hear it coming up with voters all the time. And you know, Democrats love their litmus tests. And this is the new one. This is, this is it right now, as best I can tell from listening to voters. Why do you think this issue and not say Russia's invasion of Ukraine? There's obviously lots of humanitarian crises around the world, people committing horrific crimes against one another. Like why has this become an American political issue?
- [05:27]
A
Yeah, it's a good question. I watched that debate too because I too am a nerd and care about the Michigan Senate primary. You're right, Abdul did raise AIPAC a lot. I think part of it was because AIPAC is spending, I think like 30 some odd million dollars to back his opponent Haley Stevens. So he's trying to kind of neutralize that spending by questioning the source of it and what, you know, that kind of money buys you. Right. So that's sort of a political tactic. Look, I think back to the early days of the Gaza war when Biden was president and I feel like you would see a lot of people suggesting that the kind of kids at the campus protests were just there for performative reasons and this was just people jumping on like the latest activism du jour. Now I did not really believe that then. I certainly don't think it's true now because of the polling you mentioned. You know, you're seeing a lot of Democrats care deeply about this issue and not insignificant percentage of Republicans think the U.S. is backing Israel too much. I think there's like 20% of Republicans said that in a recent Quinnipiac poll. I think the difference here is people were just waking up day after day after day and seeing in their social media feeds and in the news images of carnage. Like people getting eviscerated by 2,000 pound bombs, kids dying, people starving to death in Gaza. And unlike Ukraine, the issue wasn't that the US wasn't doing enough to support them, it was that the US was supplying another country with, with the bombs to kill the people. Right. And so it kind of married up two issues, which one was support for Israel, which is run by a extremist far right government that, you know, if you're under 40 years old, you've only known as Bibi Netanyahu, kind of attacking Barack Obama, attacking the jcpoa, leading the US into wars. Right? Like that's sort of your opinion of the Israeli government. So the US is supplying the bombs that are killing these innocent people and I think it marries up like anger at support for this right wing government with this general frustration you hear across the political spectrum with like, why are we involved in the Middle east anymore? Like, we just want to get out of there, leave that to them. Right. Like I heard that in a ton of your groups that we're going to talk about.
- [07:34]
B
Well, let's get into the groups and we're going to do the Israel of it all. I want to start with a quick smattering of some of the more strident anti Israel sentiments that we heard from our focus groups in recent months. Let's listen.
- [07:44]
A
Would anyone want to see that relationship disappear entirely? I want it to end. It's obvious where the money's going right now and it's obvious it's going to just more war, death. So stop fucking taking money and stop giving money until, I don't know, something fucking happens to changes. Excuse my pardon my friends.
- [08:02]
C
One of my specializations when I was teaching was Holocaust history. And you all know all about. Fucking sickens me what has happened in Gaza. It disgusts me. And I've got Jewish family. It has nothing to do with being Jewish. It has to do with being a Zionist and forgetting what the hell happened 70 years ago and doing the same thing to the Palestinians that was done to getting a little heated here. It turns my stomach in very limited doses. I actually like Tucker Carlson. I know, I know you can tell what I think about Zionism. He's a sensationalist son of a. I've been wanting, like I said, I was conservative. I've been watching him for 30 some years. But look up what his interviews with Mike Huckabee and look at the corner he put Huckabee in. And in these, in these tiny doses, Tucker Carlson is useful.
- [09:08]
B
I think I'm in the like very firmly in the. You don't ever gotta hand it to Tucker Carlson Camp myself. But you and Ben Rhodes talked about Tucker's interview with Mike Huckabee a few months back.
- [09:18]
A
Fascinating.
- [09:19]
B
And seemed to think he did a pretty good job purely as a interviewer, regardless of his motives. What do you think about sort of the horseshoe ish ness of the Israel issue now between the right and the
- [09:33]
A
left, the interview that the person in your focus group is talking about there. Basically what Tucker did was lay a trap for Mike Huckabee where he talked about Israel's right to exist as coming from the Bible. But then when you kind of dig deeper into what he was referencing it, it sure sounds like Israel has a Right. To a lot more territory in the broader Middle East. And you have pinned him down on whether that was what Huckabee thought. And Huckabee. Huckabee didn't do very well. So it was a fascinating conversation. The Tucker pieces I hear from a lot of people in my life who are not conservatives or Republican in any way that they are listening to Tucker. Has that happened to you over the last couple of years?
- [10:15]
B
Yeah, it also, I mean, I wrote a piece about this that also really upset conservatives, but I didn't know what to tell you that, like, Candace Owens comes up all the time across the political spectrum. I mean, more heavily on the right, but across the political spectrum, for sure. Like, they've gone mainstream for sort of politically interested people.
- [10:36]
A
Yeah. And so, look, you know, I don't want to try to get into Tucker's head. I think that people see him, there's something interesting, like he's a very talented broadcaster. He can be a talented interviewer. It doesn't mean I agree with his political views, but it can be compelling audio. I also think people find fascinating the feeling that, you know, someone who is a Republican, someone who is a MAGA official, is willing to criticize Trump so harshly on an issue like this and was actually, I thought, pretty principled in his opposition to the Iran war. And I think that that opposition just, it spoke to a lot of people. Now, of course, Tucker can very much cross the line into talking about anti Semitic tropes and saying things that I feel are way overstated and I think rightly deemed offensive by a lot of people. But I do think, like, that is why he's had such an appeal. And he was talking about this issue at a time when there was a lot of attention on it and people were desperately hoping that someone with a line into the White House was talking to Donald Trump and saying, don't go to war with Iran. Don't do this. And it turns out, actually Tucker was one of those people. He just sort of failed in that effort.
- [11:40]
B
Right. Does it worry you, though, about with guys like Tucker? I mean, I always think that when I have a position and then I find that somebody terrible like, might have that position for what I think are anti Semitic reasons that that, like, causes a problem for a legitimate right. Like, I actually, as somebody who has been shifting my own view not of Israel precisely, but of, like, Israel's behavior right now. Right. Like, I sort of feel about Israel the way I feel about the United States at the moment, which is, hey, we're behaving like absolute lunatics. And so I am a like, America. Yeah. Absolutist. Often. Like, give me an F1 Ford truck and a God Bless America soundtrack. And I, right now I'm like, well, I wouldn't be allies with us. We are crazy. We're behaving like monsters. And I feel that way about Israel right now. Like, I think Netanyahu is behaving like a lunatic. I think that somebody like Tucker, who I do think is anti Semitic, you see him going into those tropes constantly. And so in some ways, his ability to lay that trap for Huckabee or his ability to be more well versed in the making, that case comes from the fact that he's dying to make a case against Israel.
- [12:55]
A
I don't think his opposition to the war with Iran is purely anti Semitic. He is someone who talks also about the war in Iraq, the disaster of being a part of a group at Fox News who sold that war. His regrets about that. Now you can, you can say that's bullshit. You know, you don't believe him. You don't think it's credible. But I don't think opposing the war with Iran is anti Semitic. I think it's actually like quite logical and rational.
- [13:20]
B
I also oppose the war with Iran. The.
- [13:22]
A
But here where he loses me is when he starts talking about Donald Trump. Like he is a passive actor in that decision making process and was just sort of like a captive of Netanyahu, the Israeli government, the Israeli lobby, right? He starts talking about how maybe the Israelis were threatening to kill Donald Trump and that's why he went to war with Iran. Like, that's where this shit gets crazy, right? And you completely lose me. And I think it very much veers into anti Semitism. My view on Israel is similar to yours in that I don't have views about countries, I have views about leaders. I love America. I don't like Donald Trump. And like, I, I have no problem with Israel, the country. I have absolutely no problem with the people. I think it is run by right wing extremist lunatics. And I think what people are reacting to, especially young people, is there is a reflexive view in D.C. that the only acceptable kind of political approach to Israel is full support. It's providing billions of dollars every year. It's providing diplomatic support at the UN Even when it's in contravention of our own actual views as a country. And I think people are starting to question why. It's like, why do we have to give a rich country billions of dollars a year to buy weapons. Why do we have to go to war against Iran with the Israelis? Just because Netanyahu comes to Washington and pitches Trump on it in the Situation Room and makes a case that is think sort of the, the good faith version of the opposition to this war that you're hearing more from, from younger people in particular.
- [14:58]
B
I'll just say for myself, I struggle, I struggle a lot, though, when people sort of glaze Hamas as though, and, and also, like, I just, I think there's more of a case like they wouldn't release the hostages.
- [15:10]
A
I don't think anyone's glazing, like, look, I think Hamas is a fucking evil terrorist organization. I think what happened on October 7 is unjustifiable by any means. I think when you are attacking and killing innocent civilian people, it is unacceptable and we have to condemn it, period. I think what people are talking about is the fact that when you have a group of people living under occupation, under military occupation, that that is almost certainly going to lead to violent responses. And I think what, what people also point to is the fact that Palestinians have tried all sorts of peaceful means of protests, of marches, et cetera, and those peaceful efforts at resistance were met by violence. So of course they're going to turn to violent organizations like Hamas. It doesn't mean Hamas is good. I would argue also that Hamas is wildly ineffective. I think Hamas has made life exponentially worse for the people of Gaza, to their great shame. That's like kind of the nuance that I think is coming out in these conversations that you just never would really hear before.
- [16:08]
B
So let's go back, let's keep listening to the voters because there's a lot of stuff in here. One of the main buzzwords, as I, as I mentioned going around this year, is the apac, which is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. It's gotten thrown around as a litmus test in many Democratic primaries, usually by more progressive challengers. Let's listen to some of the word associations we heard when we said when you hear a pac, you know, what do you think? And again, all Democratic voters, let's listen.