Trump Showed Up to the Trial and Lost $83 Million

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Trump Showed Up to the Trial and Lost $83 Million
Release Date: July 31, 2026
Host: Sam Stein
Guest: George Conway (from the Caribbean)

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Overview:

In this episode, Sam Stein sits in for Sarah Longwell and is joined by George Conway to dissect the latest episode of high-profile legal absurdity: the prosecution of James Comey over a social media post featuring the phrase “8647” with seashells (interpreted as a coded threat to assassinate Trump). The conversation also pivots to Trump’s ongoing attempts to dodge defamation judgments, especially the $83 million E. Jean Carroll verdict. The tone is incredulous, scathing, sharply funny, and deeply skeptical of abuses of power characterizing late-stage Trumpism.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “8647” Seashell Case Against James Comey

[02:28 - 21:36] Discussion of the Absurdity in the Comey Prosecution

• Background of the Case:

  • Comey posted a picture of seashells on Instagram with “8647”, widely regarded as restaurant code for “get rid of” or “remove.”
  • Trump’s allies pushed the conspiracy that it was coded language for assassinating the President.

• Legal Motions & First Amendment Rights:

  • Comey’s lawyers filed two motions: one for dismissal (First and Fifth Amendment claims: free speech and selective prosecution), another for more discovery into the government’s conduct.
  • George Conway: “There are not enough words to describe the absurdity of some of the things that have been going on recently.” [02:28]

• The “Evidence” Was Laughable:

  • The best the prosecution could do was base their search warrants on “Person 1,” a former Comey acquaintance recently out of rehab, who only latched onto the “86” means murder theory after watching Rudy Giuliani’s podcast.
    • George Conway: “This is the basis for their search warrant? That this guy, person one, who just got out of rehab…didn’t think 8647 meant anything until he saw Rudy fucking Giuliani’s podcast and hates Comey.” [07:58]
  • Rudy’s podcast claimed “86” was mob code for killing. After “Person 1” heard this, he reversed his previous position and reported Comey to the Secret Service.

• Prosecutorial Overreach & Secret Service Involvement

  • Comey’s post gets blown up into a federal case with search warrants and even unwarranted Secret Service surveillance—all fueled by political pressure from Trump’s White House.
  • The government searched Comey’s decades-old mob files for any sign “86” meant murder—found nothing.

• Comic Interlude: Mobsters and The Sopranos

  • The feds tracked down “Sammy the Bull” Gravano (81, convicted Gambino), who said he’d never heard “86” used that way, and mobsters would never use code words familiar to law enforcement.
    • Host: “Them going to Sammy the Bull for help is like a real tell.” [12:48]
    • Sam Stein: “I have watched every episode of The Sopranos…never heard Paulie or…any of those guys use the word 86.” [12:59]
  • Judge John Gleason (ex-prosecutor on the mob case), in an affidavit: “The claim that 86 is mafia jargon to kill is preposterous. If it weren’t made in the context of seeking to deprive a man of his liberty, it would be laughable.” [15:06]

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2. Abuse of Power, Watergate Comparison, and Systemic Concern

[16:03 - 22:07] Trump’s Personalization of Federal Prosecution

• Sam Stein draws direct comparisons to Watergate and the “smoking gun tape,” but says what Trump is doing is even more blatant:
  • “This guy Trump is doing this to multiple people openly.” [17:33]
• Use of the DOJ and Secret Service for personal vendettas—reports of Secret Service surveilling Comey while Trump was out of the country.
  • Host: “They’re sending dispatches of their progress on this to an interested party aboard Air Force One.” [19:25]
  • George Conway: “It’s comical, but at the same time, it’s…depraved. It’s constitutionally, morally and legally depraved.” [19:30]
• DOJ “venue shopping” — originally tried (and failed) to get U.S. attorneys in VA to take the case, then moved to North Carolina where Comey was vacationing.
  • Memorable quote: Sam Stein jokes about constitutional venue:
  • “It’s in the Bill of Rights. You must be, if you brought to trial, where the seashells.” [21:12]

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3. The Real-world Impact of Politicized Prosecutions

[21:40 - 23:45] Personal Consequences and Lack of Recourse

• What recourse do high-profile targets like Comey have when politicized, frivolous prosecutions collapse?
  • George Conway: “In the case of malicious prosecution…maybe there could be some damages under the Federal Court Claims Act, but I imagine it’s really, really hard.”
  • The burden—legal bills, reputational harm, life disruption—is enormous. Best hope: get case thrown out and “write a book about it.” [22:59]

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4. Trump’s Defamation Losses: The E. Jean Carroll Case and “Immunity”

[23:45 - End] The Supreme Court, Carroll, and $83 Million

• Trump continues to pursue every possible avenue to avoid paying massive defamation judgments, including the $83M verdict in E. Jean Carroll’s case, now at the Supreme Court.
• Chronology of Events (with expert context):
  • 2019: E. Jean Carroll’s book alleges rape by Trump in the ’90s; Trump responds with defamatory denials while President.
  • Sam Stein: “He immediately goes out and…basically calls her a liar, which is defamatory if it’s untrue and the defendant knows that it’s untrue.” [24:29]
  • Contact between Carroll and George Conway (at a cocktail party) led her to pursue the defamation case with attorney Robbie Kaplan.
  • Case #1 (while Trump was President): bogged down for years in procedural fights, including whether the Justice Department or Trump personally should defend.
  • The “Westfall Act” defense (government liability for official acts) caused years of delay while courts debated if Trump’s remarks were part of his “official duties.”
  • Carroll #2: For post-presidency statements and the sexual assault itself; went to trial first and resulted in a $5 million verdict against Trump for sexual abuse and defamation.
    • The distinction between legal/medical terms for rape and the jury’s “common parlance” finding was discussed in court.
  • The $83 million verdict: separate, related to further defamation after the first trial.
  • George Conway: “The only surprise in this petition is who filed it…who filed it on behalf of Trump.” [24:29]
  • The Supreme Court’s recent refusal to take up the first $5 million verdict signals difficulty for Trump in overturning the $83 million.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There are not enough words to describe the absurdity of some of the things that have been going on recently.”
  — George Conway [02:28]

• “This is the basis for their search warrant? That this guy…didn’t think 8647 meant anything until he saw Rudy fucking Giuliani’s podcast and hates Comey.”
  — George Conway [07:58]

• Sam Stein: “I have watched every episode of The Sopranos…never heard Paulie or…any of those guys use the word 86.” Host: “They use gabagool, but…” — [12:59 - 13:24]

• Gleason’s Affidavit:
  “The claim that 86 is mafia jargon to kill is preposterous. If it weren’t made in the context of seeking to deprive a man of his liberty, it would be laughable.”
  — Read aloud by Host [15:06]

• On Constitutionally absurd venue:
  “It’s in the Bill of Rights. You must be, if you brought to trial, where the seashells.”
  — Sam Stein [21:12]

• On Trump’s naked use of federal power:
  “This guy Trump is doing this to multiple people openly.”
  — George Conway [17:33]

• On the seriousness despite the farce:
  “It’s, it’s comical, but at the same time, it’s…depraved. It’s constitutionally, morally and legally depraved.”
  — George Conway [19:30]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:28] – Introduction to the Comey case, explanation for the “8647” origins and the legal motions
• [07:58] – The Giuliani podcast, “Person 1,” and shaky evidence for the prosecution
• [10:31] – FBI’s futile search for “86” as mob slang; “Sammy the Bull” Gravano’s interview
• [12:59] – Soprano’s and mob slang; comedic digression
• [14:06] – Judge Gleason's affidavit demolishing the prosecution’s theory
• [16:03] – Watergate comparison, Trump’s overt pressure on the DOJ and Secret Service
• [19:10] – Secret Service unwarranted surveillance of Comey, with dispatches to Air Force One
• [21:12] – “Seashell venue” joke on the Bill of Rights
• [22:07] – Consequences and recourse for victims of politicized prosecution
• [23:45] – E. Jean Carroll cases: timeline and legal context, discussion of Trump’s defense tactics

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Conclusion

This episode is a sharp, detailed critique of how law and federal power are being distorted for political ends in the Trump era. Through laughter and disbelief, Sam Stein and George Conway reveal just how fragile (and occasionally ridiculous) the justice system can become under sustained political pressure, while reminding us that the stakes—livelihoods, reputations, legitimacy—are anything but funny. The episode is essential listening for anyone following Trump’s legal saga and the broader fight over justice and democracy in 2026.

Transcript

[George Conway]

He says he saw a Rudy Giuliani podcast and he realizes Rudy is right. This was a call to assassinate the President. He tells the Secret Services. And then. And then the government, the justice.

[Sam Stein]

Am I getting too worked up over this? No.

[Host]

No. Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Illegal News. I am not Sarah Longwell. I am not the publisher of the Bulwark. I am Sam Stein. I'm the managing editor of the Bulwark. And like Sarah, I am also not a lawyer. I am married to one, but she's not on this podcast. So Sarah recorded a special live audio only bonus episode of Illegal News this week with Andrew Weisman that we will be putting out for members in the next couple days. So since she recorded one episode already this week and we know that she needs her beauty rest, I am sitting in for her today and joining me back by popular demand. And my demand, I refuse to do the show unless he was the guest, George Conway, who's joining us from the Caribbean. George, is this an undisclosed location? Did you run from the law? What's going on here?

[Sam Stein]

I. Yeah, no, this is. I'm seeking asylum here in the British West Indies, and I'm hoping His Majesty will kind of help me out here, so. So that I don't get, you know, indicted for seashells or something like that. I was going to say, yeah, you know, I don't have. I don't have presidential immunity, so, you know, I mean, it's like all these things that we're going to talk about are. Are kind of making me wonder whether I should come back.

[Host]

Yeah, well, I want you to come back. I appreciate if you could come back. Glad you brought a guitar with you down there just in case you can't come back, so.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's nice down here, though.

[Host]

Okay, good. Well, you're going to sit and talk with us about all the terrible stuff happening domestically. You referenced it. Up top. James Comey in the news. Seashell's case. Look. So overnight we got these motions that his legal team filed, which cast a pretty bad light on the case the government brought against him. Again, if people don't remember, James. James Comey took a picture posted on Instagram of seashells in the 8647 form. The motion to dismiss was pretty remarkable. I have some thoughts on it, but I. Rather than hear me speak, why don't you take the reins and just describe how embarrassing it looks for the government?

[Sam Stein]

One of the problems with this era in American history is that English has a lot of Adjectives and words to describe things, lots of synonyms. It's one of the reasons why lots of idiomatic phrases, which is why it's a hard language for a lot of people to learn from other countries. But there are not enough words to describe the absurdity of some of the things that have been going on recently.

[George Conway]

And this is really one of them. I mean, I don't, I, I, I mean, feel free to join in with some.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, I know you've read the papers too, but I read them. I, I, I. There are so many absurdities. First of all, 8647 is a restaurant term. We all know that. Nobody thought otherwise until Donald Trump decided to accuse or, and, and his minions decided to say that this was a call to assassinate the President of the United states. Right? So 86 is a restaurant term. Like, okay, yeah, the guy in the corner is being loud and obnoxious. He's drunk. Just 86 him, get him out. Or 86 the 86.

[Host]

It's a menu item thing.

[George Conway]

86, 86 the pasta off the menu.

[Sam Stein]

You just get, get read, get rid of something. It doesn't mean kill them, murder them. It just means, okay, done, let's get rid of them. One of the things, hilarious things, that's in these motion papers, these are two motions filed by James Comey. One is to dismiss the case altogether on the grounds that his First Amendment rights are being violated and that he's being selectively prosecuted. So those are first and Fifth Amendment claims. And then there's a separate motion for discovery of the government and for a hearing about, you know, and to get basically the grand jury transcript and the stuff that's being submitted that they have already about how this government, this investigation was conducted is just insane. First of all, 8647, they point out in their moving affidavits, the Comey lawyers, that if you go on to Amazon, if you've gone on to Amazon over the past few years, there are literally thousands of items that you could have bought that said 86, 44 Obama, 86, 45. Trump won. 86, 46 Biden and 86, 47 Trump. It's a thing, it's out there. It's just like, get rid, impeach this guy. Remove this guy. Let's get rid of him. Vote him out of office. It's a political slogan. And, you know, you should be able

[George Conway]

to say that that's free speech.

[Sam Stein]

It's not a call for assassination by any means. That's one aspect of It. The other aspect is how they conducted this investigation. They didn't really have any evidence that Comey intended to call for the assassination of Trump. He pulled down the post after he started taking heat for it, which I don't know that he had to do, but he did it because he wants to make clear. He said he wanted to make clear that he doesn't condone violence in any form, which is nice. But it gave. I think it gave him a little bit. Gave it all a little bit too much credence. But let's leave that aside. They couldn't find any evidence that 86

[George Conway]

is really used that way. And the best they could do, or

[Sam Stein]

let alone what they have to prove, which is that Comey acted with the specific intent of calling for the assassination of Trump using that. And the best they could do is they found some guy who hates Comey who used to be a friend with him, who apparently knows his wife, and he's called Person one. I guess they must have. The Secret Service interviewed him, and they must have had to produce some kind of a memo to the defense, because it is exculpatory. I mean, evidence. And so you get that if you're a criminal defendant.

[George Conway]

And basically.

[Sam Stein]

So Person one apparently worked with Comey and knows Comey knows. Was talking to Comey's wife in that same period of time.

[George Conway]

Hates Comey apologizes to the government by

[Sam Stein]

saying, I wish I had something on Comey to help you, and basically says,

[George Conway]

you know, I think 86 is a restaurant term.

[Sam Stein]

All right?

[George Conway]

So he tells the Secret Service that, and then he sees. He watches a podcast by Rudy fucking Giuliani. Am I allowed to say that word? I forget you can say, okay, Rudy effing Giuliani. Rudy fucking Giuliani has a podcast where he says 86 is. 86 is mob speak. 86. 86 means kill, murder. And then person one, who apparently just got out of rehab, literally in the papers, okay, he has some kind of problem.

[Sam Stein]

I don't rehab for what I have, you know, substance. I don't know.

[George Conway]

He says he saw. He says he saw a Rudy Giuliani podcast, and he realizes Rudy is right. This was a call to assassinate the President. He tells the Secret Services, and then. And then the government, the justice.

[Sam Stein]

Am I getting too worked up over this? No, no.

[George Conway]

The government then uses files, an affidavit

[Sam Stein]

to get search warrants against whoever. I guess Comey and somebody else.

[George Conway]

This is the basis for their search warrant. That this guy, person one, who just got out of rehab, who didn't think 8647 meant anything until he saw Rudy Fox Giuliani's podcast and hates Comey. That's the basis for the search warrant. Let me read.

[Sam Stein]

Let me. Go ahead.

[George Conway]

Yeah, let me read.

[Host]

I'm gonna read from the motion because the motion really does underscore how absurd this whole thing is. This is literally in the motion. Person one. Again, we don't know who this person is.

[George Conway]

No, let me stop you right there.

[Sam Stein]

This is a matter of major, major import and speculation in the New York City bar. Okay, I am on with. I have. I have been texting my prosecutor friends

[George Conway]

because, you know, there's sort of a.

[Sam Stein]

You know, I don't mean use this word to be insulting, but there's kind of a mafia of former US Assistant, Assistant US Attorneys from the Southern District of New York. They all know each other, and they all, you know, and they. They have to. Somebody knows who this person must be. Okay.

[George Conway]

Oh, of course.

[Host]

And we have a few.

[Sam Stein]

Figure it out.

[Host]

Yeah. So we have a few clues. They knew Comey. They've been estranged from Comey, but they also have a continuing relationship with Comey's wife that we know. We also know that they listened to Rudy Giuliani's podcast and that they went to rehab. We know.

[Sam Stein]

And then recently, their career took some kind of an adverse turn. I turn, I think, is if I read the page.

[Host]

So we know all.

[Sam Stein]

Which might have had something to do with the rehab or not.

[George Conway]

I don't know.

[Host]

Yeah. All right, this is what they write. Person 1 admitted that they had been estranged from Mr. Comey, not spoken to him for at least two years. That's a flag right there. Person 1 also made clear their intense bias against Mr. Comey. Flag stating that they hope Mr. Comey, quote, goes to jail.

[George Conway]

Flag.

[Host]

For crimes that he committed as FBI Director. Okay, flag. Flag. First one also explained that after Mr. Comey's post, they had listened to a May 20, 2025, episode of Rudy Giuliani's online show Flag, on a professional and personal level where Mr. Giuliani claimed that Mr. Comey had worked on organized crime cases in which Mafia members use the term 86 to mean kill, as reflected in tapes and transcripts. So what killed me here is that they have the feds have this as the kind of basis for going after Comey, and then they decide that the thing they have to do is they're going to review the FBI's case against John Gambina because Comey was involved in that criminal case. He worked on a Six month trial.

[Sam Stein]

This was the commission case, the so called mob commission case in the 80s. And I kind of remember it well because I was right. I was in law school. It was in all the New York newspapers. I'm dating myself and one of my law partners. I practiced law for 30 years at a midtown Manhattan law firm with one of my law partners was one of the prosecutors with Comey and with a guy named Gleason, who we'll talk about in just a minute. Minute. They worked on this massive case and

[Host]

it was a big deal. I remember this, too. So they go through the files and they're trying to find any reference to 86 to 86 anywhere, anywhere in these files. Because they feel like, okay, maybe if we can establish that 86 was used in this case, then we can infer that Comey, because of this early 90s case, clearly understood a 16 mean kill, and then adopted the same terminology 24, 35 years later. Ridiculous. They can't find any reference to 86.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Host]

Then this is my favorite part. So this is my favorite part. And then I'm going to let you speak in May 2026. So now we're a year after the first meeting with person one, an FBI agent and the first assistant interviewed, Salvatore Gravano, who is Sammy the Bull. Okay. Sammy the Bull is what, 81 years old?

[Sam Stein]

Yep.

[Host]

He's a former member of the Gambino crime family, and he's a key government cooperator in the Gambino trial who was involved in the murder of at least 19 people. Okay. Samuel did not recall ever discussing the term 86 with Mr. Comey or otherwise ever hearing the term uttered in connection with trial. While Mr. Gravano, Samuel, claimed that all law enforcement agents would be familiar with the terms alternative organized crime, meaning referring to murder. He also claimed that a, quote, gangster, would never use that term because they knew that law enforcement knew what it meant.

[George Conway]

Yeah, right, right.

[Sam Stein]

Of course, you would never use it if.

[George Conway]

Even if it meant what it meant,

[Sam Stein]

even if it meant what they say it meant, they would never use it because they wouldn't use a term that they would say.

[Host]

Yes, but Comey would of course, take a picture of it on the T shirt.

[Sam Stein]

Hey, you know, Sam, did you take care of the thing, you know, the thing with the guy? The guy. The guy, but, you know, with the other guy. Did you take care of that? You take care of that.

[Host]

I just feel like them going to Sammy the Bull for help is like a real tell.

[Sam Stein]

Well, it is a real tell. And look, I have Watched every more than once. I have watched every episode of the Sopranos.

[Host]

I'm not supposed.

[Sam Stein]

And I never, never heard Paulie or. Or. Or Syl or. Or. Or Tony or any of those guys use the word 86. They just would never do that, you

[George Conway]

know, not even with the Russian guy. They wanted to. They wanted to get rid of the Russian guy. Remember the Russian guy in the.

[Sam Stein]

They didn't use that term.

[Host]

They use gabagool, but.

[George Conway]

Gabagool.

[Host]

They talk about gabagool.

[George Conway]

Well, you use.

[Sam Stein]

They would talk about boxes of ziti, meaning money. You know, we got, you know, we got 10 boxes of ziti there for that. You know, we collected that from, you know, on the trash truck run.

[George Conway]

Okay?

[Sam Stein]

And.

[George Conway]

But, you know, so that. So it gets worse than this.

[Sam Stein]

Okay?

[George Conway]

The defense. Comey's defense lawyers go to a former colleague of.

[Sam Stein]

Of Comey's and my former law partners, a guy named John Gleason, who was a very prominent U.S. district judge. And, and in the Eastern.

[George Conway]

Well, they go to Gleason for a reason. Right, right. Gleason was tried.

[Sam Stein]

Well, was worked on that case.

[George Conway]

And they get an affidavit from Gleason. This is ridiculous. We never. You was.

[Sam Stein]

Nobody ever used 86 to describe that. So, you know, when you get John, you got Sammy the Bull and Judge Gleason and person one before he watched Rudy fucking Giuliani. But you get all those three. I mean, how could you be wrong? I mean, this motion should succeed, but

[George Conway]

it is so you could not. If we had made this up like,

[Sam Stein]

I don't know, two years ago and say, this is what's going to happen if Donald Trump becomes president. Right. Everybody would laugh at us. Right?

[George Conway]

You would.

[Sam Stein]

You would have.

[George Conway]

You would have. If I said. If I said, sam, this is what's going to happen.

[Sam Stein]

We're going to have a case against Comey. It's going to be for seashells, and they're going to be talking to Sammy the Bull, and

[George Conway]

it's unbelievable. It's crazy.

[Host]

So they went to Gleason for a reason. The reason is because Sammy the Bull urged the FBI agents to go to Gleason to corroborate that there was violent connotations with the expression of 8647. So in this, as the. As told by Comey's motion, again, they went to Sammy the Bull to say, hey, can you corroborate that? Comey must have known what 8647 means. Sammy the Bull says, I don't know. I don't Think we would have done that. But you know what? Go to Judge Gleason, because I'm sure he could corroborate that there's a violent connotation to there. And Gleason absolutely eviscerates them. He says the claim that 86 is mafia jargon to kill is preposterous. If it weren't made in the context of seeking to deprive a man of his liberty, it would be laughable. So just to reiterate, the government's own investigative path led them to Gleason, and then Gleason told them to go pound sand.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. And there is so much mourning.

[George Conway]

I mean, and that.

[Sam Stein]

And Gleason's absolutely right. I mean, this is comical until you realize this is an incredible abuse of prosecutorial power. Okay? The President of the United States basically sicced the Justice Department on this one guy, and everybody just did what he said. And it really is remarkable because when you go back to think of Watergate and what it was that led finally Republican senators to go to the White House and tell Richard Nixon that he would lose an impeachment trial, it was the so called smoking gun tape was sort of the last straw. And the smoking gun tape was this tape where, you know, I mean, Nixon was just, you know, he would just babble on and say stuff, crazy stuff, and it was all on tape, which was stupid, but he said, well, they're talking about the burglars and the FBI is investigating and trying to figure out what. Where the Watergate burglars, what they were doing. And he says, well, maybe we could get the CIA. And they were Cubans, remember? They were Cubans. That the guys who broke in or orchestrated the broke in were Cubans. And they did have some weird connection to the Bay of Pigs. And he goes, well, maybe we could get the CIA to tell the FBI to back off. And he didn't actually tell them to do that.

[George Conway]

He was just floating the idea. And when, you know, Republican senators heard

[Sam Stein]

that tape, they basically said, that's it, we're done, we're done here.

[George Conway]

This guy Trump is doing this to multiple people openly. Like one of the things in these papers was, you know, it was. Remember when Trump sent a truth social

[Sam Stein]

media, what he thought was a direct message to Pam Bondi to basically say, get on the stick to prosecute the people.

[George Conway]

I don't like he actually said it to the entire world. I mean, there's the whole. The whole record is just replete with Trump just openly demanding prosecutions of people. It's been A news report. It's insane.

[Host]

Well, let me pick up on the CIA thing because in this case, it's not the CIA that was deputized by Trump. It means the doj, obviously, but also the Secret Service. The Secret Service, according to one of these motions, basically was tasked with giving sort of an unwarranted surveillance of Comey as he drove back to D.C. they revised the a new policy on May 16, the day after the seashell post that said 8647 is in fact a threat to the President. We now have reporting just this afternoon from Carol Lenning and others at msnow that there were mid level agents who were deeply uncomfortable with this idea. They didn't believe anyone's life was in danger. Trump actually was out of the country. So it didn't make any sense that Jim Comey on the Outer Banks of North Carolina posed an immediate danger to Trump, who was in like Qatar or something like that.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, he was.

[Host]

And yet, and also, and this is, it doesn't take a genius to connect the dots. They're sending dispatches of their progress on this to an interested party aboard Air Force One. I mean, this is Trump basically asking a agency dedicated to protecting him, admittedly, but still a government agency to go after, bend the rules and do unwarranted surveillance.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, no, it is absolutely. It, it's comical, but at the same time it's, it's, it's beyond, I mean, it's beyond the pale. It's be, it's depraved. It's, it's constitutionally, morally and legally depraved. What is going on here? And, but at the same time, it's laughable. And that, that's sort of the essence of Trumpism and it's, it's late stage Trumpism.

[Host]

Well, what do they want, what do they want here?

[Sam Stein]

But no, what they want, they want more discovery. They want, they want the grand jury, they want to know what happened before the grand jury and they want to get the case dismissed. So that's, and they're, you know, I mean, we're going to see a lot more fun stuff before this is over because this case is completely absurd. And another thing that's worth mentioning is that, you know, to go back to the question of vindictive prosecution and whether the, whether this has any merit in the abuse of the Justice Department, the motion papers go through. I mean, you will, and we will all recall this, they tried to get the U.S. attorney in Virginia, in the Eastern District of Virginia where Comey lives, to bring this case. And he wouldn't bring this case. And then Trump basically called for him to quit because he was going to fire him. And the guy quit. And then they had to go and they found some US Attorney in North Carolina where the seashore is. I guess that's the venue connection. And it's always where the seashells are. The seashells.

[George Conway]

Right, right.

[Host]

This is in the Constitution 7.

[Sam Stein]

It's in the Bill of Rights. You must be, if you brought to

[Host]

trial, where the seashells.

[Sam Stein]

The seashells determine where you bring a case.

[George Conway]

And there they had to find some

[Sam Stein]

guy who was prosecuting, you know, Medicare civil cases to bring the case. And nobody, no experienced lawyer in that office would work on the case.

[George Conway]

I mean, this is just, it is

[Sam Stein]

just, I can't, even before we go

[Host]

to break, because we have to go to break, I do have a question about, because this is the case with a whole host of these kind of politicized prosecutions, including we were talking about this with the Reflecting Pool case. What are these people like David Hearn, the Olympian in the Reflecting Pool case, and James Comey and others. What kind of recourse do they have if the cases are thrown out or do they have to just eat the legal bills? Do they have to deal with this, the slander of the reputation? What is the recourse?

[Sam Stein]

It sort of reminds you of that. What was the guy's name? He was secretary of something in the Reagan administration and he was investigated by an independent counsel and he was put through the ringer. No charges were ever brought. And he goes, well, where, what office do I go to to get my reputation back? And this is sort of a similar thing, except I don't think this is damaging Comey's reputation because it's so absurd. And I think this Olympic. But it, but, you know, it's putting, it put, it's a lot of expense being, you know, being, being incurred here and a lot of effort. I mean, this is, you know, a criminal prosecution takes over your life. And the same is true with the, with the Olympian. Even if, even if, even if it's a low risk prosecution, even if it's a frivolous prosecution. And I, you know, I think,

[George Conway]

I

[Sam Stein]

don't, I don't actually know the law on this. But you, you know, in the case of malicious prosecution, you, you know, maybe, maybe there could be some damages under the Federal Court Claims act, but I imagine it's really, really hard. I think the best you can really hope for here is just to get Rid of the case as soon as possible and write a book about it, I guess. I don't know. In the case, at least in the situations with independent counsels, there was a statutory provision in the Ethics and Government act that, that provided in some cases for reimbursement of funds to people who are investigated. But I, you know, I don't. That. That stuff doesn't apply here.

[Host]

We got to talk about this, because I know this is right up your alley. E. Jean Carroll. So Trump could not get out of a separate $5 million defamation suit. He was forced to pay that. And rather than lick his wounds and just kind of go and pay up the money, he's now asking the Supreme Court for, to vacate an $83 million judgment against him for a separate defamation suit. Now, what did you make? I mean, I expect him to try to just fight this. I thought the interesting thing is that he's trying to get off as the defendant in this case, and I have some theories why. But what did you make of the news break? I'm sure it didn't surprise you.

[Sam Stein]

No, no, no. This was a. This was a long time coming. I think the only surprise in this petition is who filed it, which I'll get to in a minute. Who filed it on behalf of Trump. To understand the context of this petition, we have to go back and review. And I think we did a little bit of that last week when I was talking to Sarah about the payment of the $5 million. There were two. Here's the chronology. Let's just go through the chronology. 2019, E. Jean Carroll publishes a book, and she describes how she was sexually assaulted, raped in a Bergdorf Goodman dressing room by Donald Trump. Sometime in the 1990s, Trump immediately is President of the United States. And he immediately goes out and he attacks E. Jean Carroll, says, I don't know this woman, which isn't true because there were actually pictures in New York magazine that week of Eugene meeting Trump and Ivanka Trump and basically calls her a liar, which is defamatory if it's untrue. And the defendant knows that it's untrue. And so what happened was, E. Jean Carroll meets me, actually, at a cocktail party in New York and says to me, you think I have a case? Some people are saying I should sue. Do you think I have a case? And I said, yes, you do. You have a case. I literally said, immediately, you have a case for libel, defamation, because he's lying about you, if what you say is true. And I know the precise lawyer to Bring it. And I set the next morning, I set up E. Jean Carroll with Robbie Kaplan, and the rest is history. And so what happened was the first case that Robbie brought on behalf of Eugene was a case for the initial libel, which took place when Trump was President of the United States. And, and, and that case is. It was a case where they. It went off into a procedural morass because Trump, he didn't actually assert presidential immunity. Put a pin in that. Which is the presidential immunity is the immunity that Bill Clinton tried to take advantage of in a civil case and that Trump successfully took advantage of to some extent in the criminal case. In 2024, he went off on something called the Westfall Act. He had the Justice Department come in and say that, oh, Trump made this as part of his job. He made this statement as part of his job. Therefore, the United States is on the hook for any damages, and therefore the Justice Department would get to defend it. Long story short, that went off on a question of D.C. local law, whether or not Trump was acting within the scope of his employment as president. And that took a couple of years, and it finally gets back to the District Court, like three or four years later. And during that time, Trump didn't actually assert because Alina Haba is a moron and because the claim would have been frivolous and I think still is just as frivolous as the Westfall act claim that he didn't assert that he has presidential immunity under the Constitution, that, you know, the same immunity that was rejected for Bill Clinton but partially accepted by the Supreme Court in his case in the January 6th case in 2024. So that's one case. While that's going on, Trump fails to fix the election and he leaves the White House and he again makes a bunch of statements about Eugene because he can't help himself. Another thing that happens is that the state of New York passes something called the Survivors act, which allows people who were victims of sexual abuse going back forever to bring cases within a year that might have been otherwise barred by the statute of limitations. So E. Jean brings a second case, which they called Carol ii for the post presidential defamation when he was a private citizen, and for the actual sexual assault rape. And that case goes to trial first. Carol II goes to trial first because the other case is often procedural la la land because of the Westphal pact argument. So that that case goes to trial and lo and behold, the jury returns a verdict saying, yes, sexual. Under. Under New York law, Trump sexually abused E. Jean Carroll and he lied about it. So he was liable both for the physical sexual abuse and liable for the defamation. And the judge later said, you know, for purposes of the defamation, we use New York state law just as sort of a holding place for the whole concept of what she was saying was a rape, which is in the common parlance, that includes non penile penetration. And the jury basically was making a distinction under New York law between using a penis and not using a penis to penetrate a woman. So, basically, the judge said he was found to have raped Eugene Carroll, in common parlance, and he defamed her by calling her a liar about that rape. And that was $5 million. And that verdict was affirmed by the Second Circuit. And that verdict was what we talked about last week. It went up to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court declined to hear the case. And now Eugene has that.