What Would Jesus Do? Apparently, Build a Billion Dollar Ballroom

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bulwark – "What Would Jesus Do? Apparently, Build a Billion Dollar Ballroom" (May 18, 2026)

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Overview

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast features Cameron Marley Caskey and Tim Miller in a lively, informal discussion set in New Orleans. The main theme centers on the intersection of money, politics, and odd-couple alliances in Congress, specifically through the lens of the Thomas Massie primary in Kentucky and its record-breaking spending. The conversation explores controversial campaign dynamics, bipartisan cooperation on unexpected issues, and the broader problem of outside money flooding American political races—all with typical Bulwark wit and banter.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Most Expensive Congressional Primary Ever

• [01:09–01:19] Introduction to the Kentucky primary to unseat Thomas Massie, now the most expensive such race in history.
  • Cameron: “There is more money that has been dumped into stopping Thomas Massie than ever before. And it’s kind of insane.”
  • This reflects broader concerns about money’s outsized role in politics.

2. Massie: An Unlikely Sympathetic Figure

• Cameron expresses conflicted support for Massie—a hard-right Republican—due to the onslaught of outside spending against him:

  • “Here I am rooting for the most conservative member of Congress… here I am saying, hold strong, baby.” [01:35–01:55]

• Massie described as:

  • Archetype of small-government conservatism (wants minimal government, has a self-made “debt badge” lapel pin tracking the national debt) [03:21–03:58]
  • “He’s the type of guy who you picture sitting on his porch cleaning a shotgun.” [01:55–01:58]
  • Known for posing with guns in Christmas cards—which even the pro-gun-control Caskey found “psychotic.” [02:20–02:24]

3. Money, Influence, and Lack of Transparency

• Explored how Super PACs, APAC, AI PACs, crypto, and sports betting are pouring money into primaries and shaping outcomes:

  • “Do you take AI PAC money? Crypto spending a ton of money. Sports betting is spending a ton of money… this is kind of fucked up.” [02:30–03:00]

• The need for greater transparency and frustration over outside groups—the “dump truck money” effect—particularly with APAC’s attack ad strategies. [02:30–03:21]

4. Odd-Couple Bipartisanship: The Ro Khanna–Thomas Massie Model

• [04:45–05:41] Tim discusses his article on Ro Khanna and Massie’s “outsider” bipartisanship working around party leadership to make progress on issues like:

  • The release of the Epstein files
  • Efforts to reassert Congressional war powers regarding Iran

• This represents a new bipartisan model, different from the old days of Capitol Hill pork barrel deals:

  • Tim Miller: “Roe and Massie… offered this new model, which is kind of like an outsider’s bipartisanship, where they’re both basically like, f the leadership.” [05:07–05:41]

5. Issue Alignment Across the Spectrum

• Cameron notes that certain “horseshoe theory” issues—like transparency on Epstein or reducing foreign entanglements—draw unlikely left-right alliances:

  • “When you’re thinking that outside the box, you can horseshoe into finding some things you agree on.” [05:41–06:07]

• Some Republican voters, turned off by endless wars, gravitate toward this kind of issue-based bipartisanship, even if they differ dramatically on other policy areas.

6. The Political Will Problem

• Many popular reforms fail, not for lack of public support, but due to Congress’s lack of will or entrenched interests:
  • Cameron: “A lot of things in government that don’t happen that I think people want are actually not happening because there just isn’t the political willpower to do it. Nobody’s making people do it.” [06:46–07:05]
  • Citing Massey and Khanna as examples of breaking through this inertia.

7. Light Moments & Memorable Quotes

• [03:29–04:24] Humorous analysis of Thomas Massie’s evolving beard and its “political utility,” with a sidebar on politicians who suit a beard (or don’t).
• Sudden tangent where Cameron asks Tim about geese stickers on his laptop, which leads to Tim browsing Geese Reddit while discussing Iran and Epstein—providing playful behind-the-scenes podcast banter. [07:16–07:31]
  • Cameron: “You’re just on Geese Reddit while we’re talking about Iran and Epstein.”

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Notable Quotes With Timestamps

• Cameron: “Here I am rooting for the most conservative member of Congress… hold strong, baby.” [01:39–01:49]
• Tim Miller: “He doesn’t believe that, like, government should exist. He thinks government should, like, basically do, like, roads and military and, like, that’s it.” [01:49–01:58]
• Cameron: “There’s room for some transparency here for sure… it’s kind of weird that… a pro Israel organization can run attack ads on a candidate for their association with ICE or can dump dump truck money into Illinois nine under elect Chicago Women.” [03:00–03:21]
• Tim Miller: “Roe and Massie… offered this new model… outsider’s bipartisanship, where they’re both basically like, f the leadership.” [05:07–05:41]
• Cameron: “You can horseshoe into finding some things you agree on.” [05:41–06:07]
• Cameron: “A lot of things in government that don’t happen that I think people want are actually not happening because there just isn’t the political willpower to do it.” [06:46–07:05]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:09–01:19 – Introduction, Kentucky race overview, and anti-Semitic bar altercation
• 01:19–03:21 – Money in politics, role of PACs in the Massie race
• 03:21–04:24 – The Massie “debt badge,” candidate style, and beard banter
• 04:45–05:41 – Khanna & Massie’s bipartisan model vs. the “old way” in Congress
• 05:41–06:45 – How bipartisan alignment happens on key issues
• 06:46–07:16 – Lack of political will and barriers to reform
• 07:16–07:31 – Geese Reddit as a humorous digression

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains an irreverent, conversational tone. Banter, playful insults, and off-topic tangents (including a detour into Geese Reddit) keep the political analysis accessible and entertaining.

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For Listeners New to the Episode:
This is a breezy but incisive look at how massive outside money is shaping even the deepest Red congressional districts, the appeal of unlikely bipartisan alliances, and the quirks of modern campaign culture—all served with trademark Bulwark humor and perspective.

Transcript

[A]

Ladies and gentlemen, we've got Tim Miller here. My name is Cameron Marley Caskey. This is the Bulwark Podcast. We got a great day of content coming for you.

[B]

What's going on, Cameron? What are you doing here?

[A]

I'm spending the weekend in New Orleans with my friends Tim and Tyler and the wonderful Toulouse, and we are hanging out.

[B]

It's so good to have Cameron here. This isn't really a stupid. It's kind of like a little buddy comedy vibe. We're getting pretty close to each other, but it's been nice to have Cameron. I want to do a little weekend potpourri for everybody where I discuss a couple of topics that have caught my eye. But before I just rant to you by myself, I kind of wanted to get Cameron's take on what's happening with Thomas Massie in Kentucky because it intersects with a few interests of yours. First, you have the Gen Z child of Rand Paul screaming anti Semitic slurs at a bar at Mike Lawler.

[A]

And Mike Lawler isn't even Jewish. Right?

[B]

Not Jewish. Yeah. So there's that. And his Twitter handle is tasty brew 1776.

[A]

That's Rand Paulson's Twitter. I mean, that's like on the nose. AI generated conservative Twitter handle on the nose.

[B]

Okay. It's also intersecting with you because, you know, you're doing some stuff for your boy Ro Khanna, who's been working with Massie on the Epstein Bill and the Iran War Powers Bill. And APAC is big in the race. So a lot of your interests are intersecting in this Kentucky congressional race.

[A]

I was wondering your take a very fascinating thing. So for anyone who doesn't know this primary to stop Thomas Massie is now the most expensive primary in history, there is more money that has been dumped into stopping Thomas Massie than ever before. And it's kind of insane. Yeah, it's kind of infuriating because here I am rooting for the most conservative member of Congress, the member of Congress who has cast the most Republican votes. Here I am saying, hold strong, baby. If you're.

[B]

And he doesn't believe that, like, government should exist. He thinks government should, like, basically do, like, roads and military and, like, that's it. So not even really military. That much.

[A]

Yeah. For anyone who isn't locked into the Massey of it all, this is the most conservative person you could possibly imagine. So much. I mean, we're talking. This guy's got a farm, he's got patents, he's. He likes. He's the type of guy who you picture Sitting on his porch cleaning a shotgun.

[B]

Well, he has the guns Christmas card. Have you ever seen that?

[A]

That was massive.

[B]

Ye see, I remember that of course,

[A]

because I have a gun control background. And I remember seeing that and being like, this is so psychotic.

[B]

Little risky.

[A]

And here I am being like, well, we need this man to win.

[B]

Explain that.

[A]

I think it's kind of a referendum on money and politics. I think that at a time when we are re examining money's role in politics and how much influence certain interests and organizations can have in our elections, it's interesting. We've got two groups spending a lot in elections. We've got APAC and we've got AI packs, right. And there's really only one space bar dividing the two. So it's, it gets a little complicated. Do you take AI PAC money? Crypto Spending a ton of money. Sports betting is spending a ton of money. And I think a lot of people are looking at this and saying, wait a second, this is kind of fucked up. It's kind of weird that you, you know, a pro Israel organization can run attack ads on a candidate for their association with ICE or can dump dump truck money into Illinois nine under elect Chicago Women.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I'm just like, I feel like there's room for some transparency here for sure. But again, Thomas Massie is really like the hardcore conservative of yesteryear. This man built like a national debt ticker. Like, how would you describe it? Do you know what I'm talking about?

[B]

He's got like, it's like a lapel pin, right?

[A]

Well, it's, it's, it has. We'll throw a picture of it up on the screen. Thomas Massie's beard, by the way, is doing a lot of heavy lifting. He looks pretty badass with the beard and pre beard. Thomas Massie.

[B]

I just saw the ticker. He's calling it a debt badge.

[A]

Debt badge, yeah. So there's a pre beard.

[B]

Thomas Massey right there with the debt badge.

[A]

Yeah, it's got a digital element to it. And he made it himself. He's a very. He's clearly got a lot of technological skills. I mean, he has dozens of patents which, you know, how many do you have? I don't have any patents. I have the Gen Z activism industrial complex. That's my patent.

[B]

So we, we have that man. We've seen this face now has updated the beard. Go back to the beard. What are you thinking about? The beard?

[A]

I mean, it's just a very great beard. It's the type of beard that does a Lot of work for you in politics. I think there's some people where maybe the beard is not the option.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Other people where I see it working either way, to be honest, I don't have an opinion on Buddha Judge. I think the beard looks fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think I like shaved buttigieg a little more.

[B]

I'm 50. 50 as well.

[A]

It's fine.

[B]

I wrote an article last week people can check out@the board.com about. About Rowe and Massey and how it showed, like, this different model. Like the old model of getting shit done in Washington, right, was, you know, you. You work the inside game. You go into the Ways and Means Committee, you go do a bipartisan bill with someone on the other side, you know, and they're both establishment figures and like, meet the middle and you give them some pork and they give you. Like that's how shit worked in politics, in the movies. And like, there hasn't been any bipartisanship lately. Like, there's basically nothing. And Roe and Massey, like, offered this new model, which is kind of like an outsider's bipartisanship, where they're both basically like, f the leadership. We're going to press forward on these two things. Epstein and the Iran war vote that we know that the people are for, but that's getting blocked. And I don't know, I'm kind of interested by that model. And Massey might be basically the opposite of you politics wise, but that is an appealing part of it for me.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think that Epstein and Iran are actually maybe the quintessential examples of the types of things that when we talk to conservatives, we can get them to say, yeah, this is too much. And, you know, horseshoe theory leads to a lot of people becoming crackpot maniacs. But there's also a degree to which, when you're thinking that outside the box, you can horseshoe into finding some things you agree on.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And a lot of Republicans. I talked to a guy pretty recently about this. A lot of Republicans wanted that isolationist Trump. They wanted that Trump who's not going to get involved with all this war. And these are people who don't necessarily listen to Bulwark or read any similar things and don't realize how bad we're getting. Fucking dog walked.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

But they're sick of it and they've had enough. And I think what Roe and Massey have done is recognized that not only are they going to find these things we agree on, they're also going to do such as someone who is like a chair of the Bernie campaign and someone who wears the debt badge.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it really goes to show, a lot of things in government that don't happen that I think people want are actually not happening because there just isn't the political willpower to do it. Nobody's making people do it. So, for example, before what Roe and Massie did on the Epstein files, if you had asked me about it, I said, well, there's nothing that can be done.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And here they are doing it.

[B]

And in the article I read, the Polymarket was like, 11% likelihood that it was going to get released last summer.

[A]

I'm sorry, real quick, why do you have the geese on your laptop?

[B]

Oh, because I like the geese.

[A]

Oh, you're just on Geese Reddit while we're talking about Iran and Epstein.

[B]

Yeah. Can I not be on Geese Reddit?

[A]

No, you can be on Geese Reddit. For anyone who doesn't know, I'm very able to.

[B]

I'm like, I can multitask.

[A]

My bad, my bad. Yeah. Fun, fun. Behind the scenes. Fy pod fact. Back when Tim and I had our duo show, if there was a guest who you thought was bad and, you know, I mean, there were some guests who I think were pretty organic on camera and pretty fun to watch, but weren't necessarily that insightful. I mean, it's hard, like,