When He Swore an Oath, It Wasn’t to a Political Party. (w/ Seth Bodnar)

Summary

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The Bulwark Podcast: "When He Swore an Oath, It Wasn’t to a Political Party"

Guest: Seth Bodnar
Host: John Avlon
Date: June 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the candidacy of Seth Bodnar, former president of the University of Montana, now running as an independent for U.S. Senate. The discussion dives deep into the corrosive effect of hyper-partisanship in America, the failures of both major political parties to meet the needs of rural Americans, and Bodnar’s rationale for rejecting party politics in favor of mission-focused, independent leadership. The conversation explores democracy’s fragility, why traditional party brands have failed Montana, and Bodnar’s vision for constructive change in Congress.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Moral Health" of the Nation

• [00:00] Seth Bodnar opens with a sobering survey result:

  • Pew Research found the U.S. ranked last among 25 countries when asked if citizens viewed each other as "good and moral people."
  • Memorable quote:

    “Which country finished dead last on that survey in terms of the percent that said their fellow countrymen were good and moral people? The United States of America.”
    — Seth Bodnar (00:00)

• [00:20] John Avlon underscores the gravity:

  • Calls it a "kill shot to a democratic republic," highlighting that distrust and division undermine democracy.

2. Why Run as an Independent?

• [01:22] Bodnar’s Story and Motivations:

  • Son of public school teachers, military veteran (Green Beret), business executive, university president.
  • Driven by concern for his children's future—worried that today's America is "less prosperous, less secure, more divided."
  • Felt a "moral failure" to leave things as they are, so he and his wife chose action over complaining.
  • Quote:

    “My wife and I decided, well, look, we could keep complaining about it, or we could actually try to do something about it.”
    — Seth Bodnar (01:58)

• [03:09] Rationale for Independence:

  • Not motivated by party loyalty; his oath was “to the Constitution… I didn’t swear loyalty to a political party.”
  • Experience: In the military and as a university administrator, what mattered was mission-oriented work, not party labels.
  • Montana’s culture prizes independence, individual liberty, and collective responsibility.
  • Frustration with leadership that “works to divide us and distract us while they enrich themselves.”
  • Quote:

    “When you’re stacked on a wall outside of a building about to kick down the door... one question that never comes up: ‘Hey, are you a Republican or are you a Democrat?’ That just, it never comes up, right? We focused on the mission.”
    — Seth Bodnar (03:24)

• [04:56] Montana's Appetite for an Independent Approach:

  • Avlon emphasizes that Bodnar’s campaign isn’t a “quixotic vanity project”—he’s leading in fundraising and in some polls.
  • Democratic brand considered “dead” in Montana; Bodnar asserts both party brands are “bad.”

3. Failures of Both Parties

• [05:56] The Broken Political System:

  • Congressional approval hovers around 10%. Bodnar jokes: “My only question on that is who the heck are the 10?” (05:59)

  • Accuses Republicans of taking rural America for granted:

    • Case in point: Senator Steve Daines filed for re-election, then abruptly withdrew to ensure a handpicked successor, disenfranchising Montanans (06:29).
    • Republicans expect to win “whether I show up and work for you or not.”

  • Critiques Democrats for openly writing off rural voters:

    • Cites Chuck Schumer’s strategy prioritizing suburban over rural voters.
    • Consequence: Policy inattention as rural America faces a 46% increase in farm bankruptcies and a rural healthcare crisis.

  • Quote:

    “We are seeing rural America being left behind by the political leaders who are supposed to show up and work for them. And both parties are to blame.”
    — Seth Bodnar (08:02)

4. Why Not Run as a Democrat?

• [09:09] Policy Differences and Party Discontent:

  • On immigration: Supports strong borders, pragmatic, comprehensive immigration reform.

  • On policing: Vehemently opposes “defund the police,” calling it “the dumbest statement one could ever make.” Supports law enforcement and accountability.

  • Broader issue: The system itself and party-driven factions are “ripping this country apart.”

  • Quote:

    “We need to support our police. Yes, we need to hold bad actors accountable, absolutely. But we need to support those who are out on our streets every day keeping us safe.”
    — Seth Bodnar (09:33)

5. The Impact of Partisan Toxicity

• [10:49] Civic Distrust as a Collapse of National Character:

  • U.S. civic trust is eroding compared to nations like Canada (92% of Canadians believe their fellow citizens are good and moral vs. 47% of Americans).

  • Sees this as a consequence of “partisan toxicity that’s ripping the very fabric of this country apart.”

  • Quote:

    “I won’t be part of that. I want to work for all Montanans.”
    — Seth Bodnar (10:52)

6. Independent Leadership and Washington’s Challenge

• [11:25] Avlon links Bodnar’s philosophy to Washington’s Farewell Address:

  • The founders warned against “the spirit of party” and the formation of destructive factions—“we are living through to some extent Washington’s nightmare.”

• [11:56] The Washington Reality of Independent Senators:

  • Avlon asks Bodnar how he’d handle the likelihood of party caucusing, as independents often align for practical reasons.
  • Leads into a discussion on policy priorities and practical wielding of power in the Senate.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Survey on Civic Trust

  “Pew Research did a recent survey that should be a warning sign for all of us...”
  — Seth Bodnar (00:00, repeated at 09:56)
  “That’s a kill shot to a democratic republic.”
  — John Avlon (00:20)

• Why Political System is Broken

  “Congress right now, it’s around 10%. My only question on that is who the heck are the 10, right?”
  — Seth Bodnar (05:56)

• On Partisanship and Public Service

  “I swore an oath to the Constitution of the United States, and I didn’t swear loyalty to a political party.”
  — Seth Bodnar (03:12)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 | Civic trust survey results
• 01:22 | Bodnar’s background and motivation to run
• 03:09 | Explanation for running as an independent
• 05:56 | Critique of both party brands and their failures in Montana
• 06:29 | Specific critique of Montana Republican leadership
• 08:02 | Both parties blamed for rural decline
• 09:24 | Policy points where Bodnar departs from Democratic orthodoxy
• 10:49 | U.S. ranks low on civic trust; implications
• 11:25 | Framing Bodnar’s mission in context of the nation’s founders
• 11:56 | The complexity of independent Senate service

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Summary

Seth Bodnar's Senate run is grounded in a fundamental rejection of partisan politics and is deeply shaped by public service, military experience, and a pragmatic approach to Montana's complex identity. Both parties, in his view, have failed to genuinely serve or engage rural communities, contributing to declines in economic opportunity, public trust, and national cohesion. Instead of perpetuating party divisions, Bodnar advocates mission-driven leadership that promises to serve “all Montanans.” His independence is not merely political strategy but a matter of principle, exemplified by his focus on the Constitution, civic trust, and pragmatic policy over party fealty.

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Transcript

[Seth Bodner]

Pew Research did a recent survey that should be a warning sign for all of us, asked people in 25 different countries, do they believe their fellow countrymen are good and moral people? You know, which country finished dead last on that survey in terms of the percent that said their fellow countrymen were good and moral people? The United States of America.

[John Avlon]

That's a kill shot to a democratic republic. Welcome to how to Fix It. I'm John Avlon. And you know, the purpose of this podcast is to focus on finding solutions to the problems we face. Not just endlessly fixating on those problems themselves. But one of the big problems we do definitely face is a divided and dysfunctional Congress. And so if you're frustrated at the hyper partisanship and polarization and the acquiescence to Donald Trump's every whim by leading Republicans, the question is, how do you break this deadlock? How do you stop the pendulum swing? Well, one way might be to elect independents to Senate. I think more independents because we've got two of them, both Bernie Sanders and Angus King from Maine. Our guest this week is Seth Bodner. He is running to become the independent senator from the great state of Montana. He's got a lot of insights into what's wrong with our politics and how to fix it. Seth, it's good to see you. Welcome.

[Seth Bodner]

Thanks, John. It's great to be here. I really appreciate you spending some time with me today.

[John Avlon]

Well, it's a bold path and I think it's an important race for people to pay attention to. First, tell folks a little bit about your story and why you decided to leave the presidency at the University of Montana to run as an independent for the U.S. senate.

[Seth Bodner]

You know, going way back. I'm the, I'm the son of two public school teachers, you know, who my parents taught elementary school, small town public school, both of them. And they showed me early in life the importance of service. And I joined the military at the age of 18 and served 10 years on active duty as a hundred 1st Airborne Division and then as a Green Beret and 1st Special Forces Group. Had a business career, worked my way up through the rail division at GE and then spent eight and a half years at the University of Montana. And, you know, but frankly, the most important thing that drove me is, is our kids. You know, my wife and I are blessed to have three kids, two high schoolers and a middle schooler. And I see a country that is on a track to hand over a situation, know, for our kids where the United States of America is less prosperous, less secure. More divided, more in debt than, than the country that I grew up in. I think that's a moral failure. And my wife and I decided, well, look, we could, we could keep complaining about it, or we could actually try to do something about it.

[John Avlon]

I appreciate that. I've had that same conversation myself, and it's the right thing to do. But the real question is, why run as an independent? Not that long ago, John Tester, longstanding Democratic senator from the state of Montana, defied Trump gravity until the last cycle. Not that long ago you had Steve Bullock, Democratic governor, making the case for red state Democrats, rural Democrats. And yet you've tried to, decided to take a different path and run as an independent. Run me through that logic and what you see as your path to victory.

[Seth Bodner]

Well, look, I'm running as an independent for three reasons. One, it's authentic to who I am. You know, at the age of 18, I swore an oath to the Constitution of the United States, and I didn't swear loyalty to a political party. And I've always led with a focus on mission. You know, when you're, when you're stacked on a wall outside of a building about to kick down the door of a suspected terrorist safe house in Iraq, I'll tell you one question that never comes up. Hey, are you a Republican or are you a Democrat? That just, it never comes up, right? We focused on the mission. And same was true at the University of Montana. You know, I worked closely with Republican governor, I work closely with a Democratic governor. I work closely with Republican legislators, Democratic legislators. And our focus was the mission, creating opportunity for Montanans and driving economic growth in our state. And it turns out when you focus on the mission, you can get a lot done. And you know, Montanans, you know, we're an independent people. You know, we, we're people who believe strongly in the importance of individual liberty, but also in the idea of collective responsibility to each other and to future generations. And, and Montana's are hung new approach. You know, we're, we're fed up with the constant fighting, you know, our political leaders working to divide us and distract us while they enrich themselves while nothing gets better for hardworking Montana families. And I believe there's a, there's a better way, you know, and, and I think I'm not alone. I know I'm not alone. I think there's many who are in what I call the, the, the sensible center or the sensible majority who believe that, that both of these national parties are failing us and that, that we need somebody in the US Senate from the great state of Montana, who's going to go and work not for a party boss or for party insiders, but for the people of this great state.

[John Avlon]

I want to emphasize to people that this is not some kind of quixotic vanity project, that you've actually raised more money than the other candidates in the race and there have been polls showing you ahead of the other candidates in the race. You know, the, the incumbent Republican senator stepped down and had a sort of a handpicked successor. The Democrats will figure out what they do. And some folks believe that this should be a Nebraska type situation where Democrats get behind the independent because the Democratic brand is so broken. Other people disagree. But that goes to the question I want to ask you and I want to press you on this. Jon Tester said himself, Democratic brand is dead in Montana for the time being, Right. And he'd been a very effective and broadly popular senator. But you can only defy political gravity so much for so long. Where did the Democratic brand get broken in Montana? What are the issues? What's the approach? What's the association that makes someone like you say, not only is it true to me to resident independent, but it might be a smarter political path.

[Seth Bodner]

Look, I think, and I would say both parties, brands are bad. To be. To be frank with you, right? The approval of Congress right Now, it's around 10%. I mean, John, it makes. My only question on that is who the heck are the 10, right? Maybe elected leaders and lobbyists and people who profit from the system, but nobody thinks it's working. You know, you have a Republican Party that's, that's written off rural America and taking it for granted. You know, given the.

[John Avlon]

What happened, how do you. Why do you say they've written off rural America, put some meat on the.

[Seth Bodner]

Well, they're taking it for granted. A great example is what you just, just talked about with, with Steve Danes. You know, Steve Daines had so little respect for the people of Montana, the Republicans of Montana, that he filed for reelection on the first day that filing opened, gave end to every indication that he was going to run. You know, so nobody else would get into the race. And then three minutes before the filing deadline, he withdraws. He pulls out to make sure that nobody else can get into that race except for his anointed successor. That's an affront to Montana. That's a disenfranchisement of Montanans, and that's taking Montanans for granted. It's not okay. And I say that because, you know, Republicans think Hey, if there's an R by my name, I'm just going to win, whether I show up and work for you or not. You know, on a Democratic side, you know, you got the leader of the, of the Senate Democrats, Chuck Schumer, who said publicly a number of years ago that for every working class voter that the Democratic Party loses in rural areas, it can pick up two in the suburbs. So if that's your stated public strategy, why do we wonder why people in Montana don't resonate with that party? We don't have people showing up and working hard for rural America. You see farmers in crisis right now. 46% increase in farm bankruptcies last year relative the year before. Farmers are in crisis. Rural healthcare is in crisis. We are seeing rural America being left behind by the political leaders who are supposed to show up and work for them. And both parties are to blame.

[John Avlon]

So Republicans policies certainly have made it worse for farmers.

[Seth Bodner]

Right.

[John Avlon]

I mean from the fertilizer implications of the Iran war to the trade wars that have hurt American farmers, exporting to, I mean the decimation of rural health care under the Republicans bill. That's all, that's all true. I'm going to go on a limb and say most Montanans don't know that Chuck Schumer ever said something like that. There's a deeper association problem. Right. And, and, and I just, you know, not that you're, you're not a Democrat, but again, you've chosen to say it's better to run as an independent even though that is a much objectively harder road to hoe because something's broken. And I think folks, Democrats need to hear what's broken and how to fix it just because otherwise you can't just write off huge swaths of the country. And, and that's the position they're in. But I think there's a degree of denial about that, about why that is.

[Seth Bodner]

Yeah, look, I'm not a political pundit. I'm not here to give advice to the national Democratic Party. You know, what I'm here to do is make it clear.

[John Avlon]

Why aren't you running as a Democrat? That is the second Amendment. What are the issues where you were just like beyond the fact that you were an independent. What, you know, you could have been run as a Democrat and presumably had a head to head edge. Three way race is different. There were some issues where you were like, I can't do that.

[Seth Bodner]

Yeah, look, I mean we could go ish by issue. I mean, I think it's immigration. I believe that we need strong borders. We need to enforce our immigration policies. We need comprehensive immigration reform. We need to support our police mottos like defund the police. I wholeheartedly to my core disagree with that. I think it's the dumbest statement one could ever make. We need to support our police. Yes. We need to hold bad actors accountable, absolutely. But we need to support those who are out on our streets every day keeping us safe. But look, it's not just about the Democrats or just about the Republicans. It's about a system that is ripping this country apart. You know, you wrote a book on our independent president George Washington and his farewell address who warned us of the baneful effects of the spirit of party and the risk for factions to create a spirit of revenge in Americans that can allow dishonest men to usurp the will of the people. Here we are two and a half centuries later. We're seeing that firsthand. And Pew Research did a recent survey that should be a warning sign for all of us. Asked people in 25 different countries, do they believe their fellow countrymen are good and moral people? Which country finished dead last on that survey in terms of the percent that said their fellow countrymen were good and moral people? The United States of America.

[John Avlon]

We finished kill shock to a democratic republic.

[Seth Bodner]

We finished behind South Africa that went through apartheid, you know, less than within the many people's lifetimes. You know, you look at we, 47% of Americans answered yes to that question. You drive three hours north of where I'm sitting right now, you're in Canada. Canadians answered that. 92% said yes. That is a failure of a partisan toxicity that's ripping the very fabric of this country apart. I won't be part of that. I want to work for all Montanans.

[John Avlon]

Well, and I think that's what people need. It's what they deserve. It certainly was the founders and the framers intent, particularly Washington, as you said. I know you're a big fan of the farewell address and Washington called it, there's no question. And we are living through to some extent Washington's nightmare. Especially with the corruption and crookedness and denigration of character out of this, this president and this administration. But how do you think you could make a difference in Washington?

[Seth Bodner]

Right?

[John Avlon]

Some independents get elected and because of the rules they end up aligning with the party. And so some folks don't even know that Bernie Sanders and amended the Democratic Party or in Angus King's case, he was a two term governor, independent. So would you caucus with a party and what would be your policy priorities? How would you wield that power?