Narrator/Interviewer (5:21)

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business, let's create smarter business. IBM. America, America, you used to be so fun but now you go to bed at night scrolling on your phone well, listen up, America Carnival is here. There's comedy and snorkeling and dining like everything from sea to shining seas Find.

Narrator/Interviewer (6:12)

Your fun again today.

Narrator/Interviewer (6:13)

Carnival is calling. Save up to 40% off your cruise vacation offer.

Narrator/Interviewer (6:16)

Plastic cruise fairly restricted supply.

Narrator/Interviewer (6:17)

Visit carnival.com for details. Ships registry at the Bahamas In Panama.

Narrator/Interviewer (6:19)

Did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in. The debit card and money app made for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and track spending with real time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save and spend responsibly while parents have peace of mind knowing smart money habits are being built with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight risk free today@greenlight.com iheart that's greenlight.com iheartra now, as you know, I've had to edit interviews for time and clarity. You only get to hear tidbits and pieces of what everyone says. Like Joe, for example. Although I've played the key bits of Joe's interview, there were small parts I left out to avoid confusion. And one of those parts was actually not so small at all. It was a huge bombshell. I left until now. During the interrogation, police asked Joe if he told anyone about killing Yvonne. Joe said he told his friend Samantha Pegg that he murdered Yvonne. Now, I thought this was odd. He mentioned Sam and not Rose and Chris, the couple he supposed supposedly ran into at the mall and told he was going to kill a woman that night. So I was immediately skeptical. Was this true? But police recorded an interview with Sam several months after the murder. And we have that audio.

Narrator/Interviewer (8:04)

Today's date is Sunday, July 18, 1999. The time is 10:29 hours. My name is Detective Bud Sampson. Save lines, please, for me. Also in the room is Detective William Mucklow from the Alliance Police Park.

Narrator/Interviewer (8:21)

Sam Pegg was Joe's best friend. In fact, one of his only friends. They went to school together.

Narrator/Interviewer (8:28)

We got that great relationship. He could tell him anything. He usually, yeah, talk back and forth a little bit.

Narrator/Interviewer (8:35)

And what Sam had to tell the police about her best friend was damning.

Narrator/Interviewer (8:41)

And did you have a chance to talk alone with Joe? Yes. When was this? At the end of June, in between the 18th or the 25th. And how was his demeanor at that time? How did he. How did he see it? He seemed like that was all because he came to the house and like, kind of shook up. And I was like, well, Jones, everything is missing. I was like, well, calculated.

Narrator/Interviewer (9:09)

So later came around, Joe goes, I.

Narrator/Interviewer (9:13)

Need to talk to you. What's wrong? And he goes, he'll go downstairs. I said, yeah. And so we went downstairs and, you know, my train of days, I was like, why did I talk about him? He goes, well, he had me kill his ex. Wife. And I asked him why, and he said, because you want to talk to the end of stairs. Yeah. Okay. If she's, you know, saying that she was coerced by police or forced in some way to outright lie about Joe ever telling her that, then I'm gonna ask her to sign an affidavit and make it legally binding and see what she says.

Narrator/Interviewer (9:59)

I pretty sure she's gonna say that.

Narrator/Interviewer (10:02)

We'll see.

Narrator/Interviewer (10:03)

John and Dani wondered about the validity of her statement. Now, Sam has not spoken to anyone since her police statement that we know of. And despite her seemingly damning allegation, she did not testify at trial. However, she did testify at the grand jury, which happened before trial. And for trial she was subpoenaed. But the police couldn't find find her. However, we were determined to do so. We heard from sue that Sam was still in the area. When sue went to speak with her years ago, she slammed the door in her face. But based on Sam's social media, she was clearly still interested in the case. We got the impression Sam was a no bullshit kind of person. Street savvy, tough. And we realized it might be even harder to get Sam to open up the than it was Chris. We had to get her, though. After all, she dropped this bombshell on social media. But she wrote that comment.

Narrator/Interviewer (11:06)

She wrote a comment in 2013 she wrote on some social media post about she didn't think Joe did it and.

Narrator/Interviewer (11:19)

Joe shouldn't have involved her, which is a really weird statement.

Narrator/Interviewer (11:22)

Yeah. So that's really what we know about her. And so the angle will be. Listen, we know that you've made posts since this conviction that you believe Joe's innocent. And you know, we're trying to figure that out. And if he is, we're gonna help him. So we'd like to visit with you.

Narrator/Interviewer (11:44)

We went to the most current address for Sam.

Narrator/Interviewer (11:47)

That's a fine looking dog. Morning. Is. Is Sam around? No. Samantha. Oh, Samantha. Did she live here? No, she. She hasn't lived here for a long time. Oh.

Narrator/Interviewer (12:03)

It turned out it was her parents house and she hadn't lived there in a long time. They told John and Danny that they remember it all and even mortgaged their house to hire Sam a lawyer. Her parents told the guys that when Sam got roped into all of this by Jo, the police told her if she knew anything, she had to tell them, threatening charges against her. So we had to find out what Sam knew. Sam wasn't there, but they gave us her address and we went to find her. When we pull up, we saw the car. Her parents told us she was driving, so we knew she was probably there. And as John and Danny were putting on their microphones next to the car. Drop it in your pocket. Drop it in your pocket. Someone resembling Sam's description exited the building and started walking. So they raced over.

Narrator/Interviewer (12:56)

Are you Samantha? Maybe. Joe Wilkes and. Just doesn't go away, does it?

Narrator/Interviewer (13:05)

They do their spiel and.

Narrator/Interviewer (13:07)

I really don't want to say anything. Why is that? Because I'm tired of being dragged in the middle of it. You're not in the middle of it. Oh, I have been for the last 22 years. Really? It's been going on.

Narrator/Interviewer (13:21)

But surprisingly, Sam says she'll speak on one condition.

Narrator/Interviewer (13:27)

Well, I'll tell you what. You talk to Joe, you let me see it, and if he says go ahead and talk, I'll talk. Good enough. But if he. He's your friend, right? So you understand. Understand what? What I just said. No, no. You talk to Joe. Okay. Joe says, go ahead and I talk to y'. All. You let me know. Okay? And I'll talk. Till then.

Narrator/Interviewer (13:53)

She flashed a peace sign and started to walk away. And that was it. She said we had to get permission from Joe and if she was going to talk to us, it wasn't the worst outcome. Joe said he was eager to talk to us. We were just waiting for the prison to cooperate. Maybe he'd also be okay with Sam talking. Still, we were left pretty empty handed and feeling beaten down. No Joe, no Sam. But on our next trip, our luck changed.

Narrator/Interviewer (14:24)

Thanks for taking the time for us.

Narrator/Interviewer (14:27)

Joe gave permission for Sam to speak with John and Danny.

Narrator/Interviewer (14:33)

You know, we've been looking at the case for months, so we're not some of these folks that are coming in and just trying to put something on tv. That's going to be detectives. I've had investigators, I've had the police. I mean, it was a full out brawl when it first happened. Yeah. I came home from work, my mom's like, you got to p the lawyer. I said, for what? And she turns on TV and all the news. I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Narrator/Interviewer (14:57)

That's when Sam's parents mortgaged their house to afford a lawyer for their daughter.

Narrator/Interviewer (15:02)

So you and Joe, y'. All. Y' all were good friends for a long time. Yes, I am.

Narrator/Interviewer (15:06)

The mood was different from last time. Less adversarial. They talked about Joe.

Narrator/Interviewer (15:11)

We're not even sure he remembers exactly what did happen. We feel like he's been fed so Much information. And if he's innocent, we want to get him out. We do. Him and David. Right.

Narrator/Interviewer (15:23)

The guys asked her what really happened and she confirmed that Joe did say that to her in the basement six months after the murder. He said that he did do it, but she didn't believe him.

Narrator/Interviewer (15:36)

And what did you say you were. You're his best friend. Did you say, Are you just talking crazy drunk nonsense? Pretty much. I just looked at him. I said, oh, okay, Joe, Well, I truly, honestly believe he didn't do it. Yeah. Said that when I was on this, but I really don't think he did do it. Joe is kind hearted, he's very sensitive. He. He would never do anything to hurt anybody else. And especially like when we were going through the whole process and they said the kids were in the home, I knew right then and there Joe was not part of that. You're. You're not the first person that's told us that, that Joe would never. Even if he could imagine him doing it, he wouldn't do it with kids in the house.

Narrator/Interviewer (16:14)

Right now. If you're wondering, like I was, if she might be sticking to a lie to avoid perjury charges.

Narrator/Interviewer (16:21)

Did you ever feel like they were being really aggressive to make you say something? No.

Narrator/Interviewer (16:27)

But apparently she did fear that she could be dragged into this. Apparently the cops let her know that she could face a prison sentence.

Narrator/Interviewer (16:36)

I was in Florida actually the day it happened. And that's really what saved my ass because I had a credit card receipt from Florida where I was.

Narrator/Interviewer (16:47)

It seemed Sam worried that she could have potentially been framed as a co conspirator if she'd been in town. Her lawyer wasn't going to run the risk of Sam getting on the stand under oath at trial. Who knew what kinds of tricks they'd pull?

Narrator/Interviewer (17:06)

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere. But your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business, let's create smarter business. IBM. America. America, you used to be so fun but now, now you go to bed at night scrolling on your phone well listen up America. Carnival is here with world class crew and ropes car stew and comedy and snorkeling and dining like everything from sea to shining sea. Find your fun again@carnival.com Carnival is calling ships registry Bahamas and Panama. Looking for a fantasy that will keep.

Narrator/Interviewer (18:06)

You up all night from blood And Ash isn't just a story. It's the beginning of an obsession. Obsession from Blood and Ash launches you into a world where forbidden desire collides with deadly secrets. And every choice could ignite a war. Expect heart pounding romance, fierce battles, and a heroine who refuses to be caged. If you crave danger, passion in twists you'll never see coming, start the journey today. Grab from Blood and Ash, available in print, ebook and audiobook and enter a series you'll never want to leave.

Narrator/Interviewer (18:36)

My lawyer shipped me off Indiana for six months until the whole thing was over. My lawyer went to court. My lawyer, like I sat him down. Why did you get a lawyer? Because I was gonna. I've got five to 15 years pressed against me for no one not saying.

Narrator/Interviewer (18:51)

That's why the cops couldn't find her to testify at trial. During the interview with police, Sam had had an attorney present that made it incredibly unlikely for the police to pressure and coerce her. So she seemingly freely admitted that Joe did confess to her. But still, I don't believe it.

Narrator/Interviewer (19:14)

Yeah, you know what I mean? So I'm not going to go and say something that I don't truly believe and even cause more trouble. Yeah. As far as getting you in the room with the detectives, when you're first talking to them, did they, did they sort of ask you open ended questions of what. What did you know? Or did they sort of start almost immediately telling you what they believe? Yeah, they said, well, we, we arrested Joe on something and then he started telling us this story and your name came up and this is what he said you knew. And I said, okay. And they says, well, is it true? And I says, well, that's what Joe told you. Okay. Yeah. And that's pretty much how the interview went. And so they, they, it was, it was true that he had told you that in the basement. It's just a matter of you didn't believe it.

Narrator/Interviewer (20:03)

But what we do know is what I said before. Sam was street smart. Sam wouldn't give the police any more than what they gave her.

Narrator/Interviewer (20:12)

And they're like, well, what do you know? And I'm like, well, what did Joe tell you? You know what I mean? Just like with you guys. Well, what did Joe.

Narrator/Interviewer (20:18)

Sam may not have believed Joe, but she kept that to herself.

Narrator/Interviewer (20:23)

Back to them, hey, I wasn't going to put my own opinion in there if it wasn't true and be.

Narrator/Interviewer (20:27)

I don't want to at this point. We all started to think maybe there was truth to Joe being involved. His own best Friend who loves him and wants to protect him at all costs, says he told her he killed Yvonne. So if Joe said this, what are the odds that Rose and Chris, people who live in different towns and are independent from Sam, would have a similar story of Joe telling them he was going to kill a girl? And then a girl winds up dead.

Narrator/Interviewer (20:59)

And so you're looking at that, you think, well, that doesn't look very fucking good for Joe, you know? So that was why it was important for us to talk to you and see what the real circumstances were behind your statement and grand jury testimony and all that stuff. And this really helps.

Narrator/Interviewer (21:15)

But remember, Sam said she wouldn't tell the police more than what they were asking her to verify. So was there more to what Joe said to her? There was. Sam dropped one final bombshell.

Narrator/Interviewer (21:30)

I know David wanted him to. Okay. And I was under the impression that Dave was going to pay him to. Did he tell you that David wanted him to do that? Yeah, he did. Did he tell you that multiple times? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Before it happened. Dory like months before.

Narrator/Interviewer (21:51)

This was where our investigation took a turn we never expected. Allegedly. Joe was talking about murdering Yvonne for months. And for months he'd been telling Sam that David was behind it. We were more confused than ever. Maybe I was resisting what was in front of me, but I was determined to be skeptical. Skeptical of the official story, skeptical of the cops I'd reported on. Too much shady police work to ever take their story at face value. But Sam was credible. Sam told us she loves Joe and doesn't believe he killed Yvonne. But regardless, she stands by him telling her he did it and that David Thorne wanted him to. And that Jo had been telling her that for months. We had never heard this before. This was never in any of her statements to the police or grand jury. We considered that she was making it up. But for what purpose? Sam did realize that Joe's case and David's case were tied.

Narrator/Interviewer (23:08)

But to be able to get Joe out, I guess you gotta get David out too.

Narrator/Interviewer (23:11)

So why would she implicate David if she thinks helping Joe requires David getting out? Well, if she was telling us the truth of what she knew, and Sam did tell us that she wasn't going to bring up any more to the police than what they asked her about. That's true.

Narrator/Interviewer (23:28)

How confident are you that Joe had made mention that his friend David wanted his wife killed before it happened? Oh, yeah. Actually, it was. Dave had some part in. So they. Joe had been telling you for some time that David wanted him to do this. Okay. And did you think that at any point in time he was actually considering doing it? No. Okay. Do you believe that? That David masterminded it, no matter whether Joe or not? I do. That's my gut feeling. He wanted it, and I think he would just find the first person that would say yes to do it.

Narrator/Interviewer (24:12)

And Joe was the sucker.

Narrator/Interviewer (24:15)

He always looked up to date. Yeah. Like, whenever David would call, like, I remember driving him over to David's house a couple of times, especially when him. And when David and his wife were getting divorced. Yeah. And that's the whole story. He didn't want to pay child support. They had, like, five or six kids.

Narrator/Interviewer (24:30)

It's interesting Sam mentioned these details. Of course, we know that Yvonne and David were not married and all kids were not David's. But Sam didn't. Sam didn't care one way or another. None of this meant anything to her and to the guys. This just shows how little Sam was involved or has paid attention to the case. She told them she has other shit going on and doesn't read the news or watch tv. So the fact that she remembers these details helped convince John and Danny that she's telling the truth about what she remembers.

Narrator/Interviewer (25:03)

Did you even know David? No. And he's just telling you, sam, I got this buddy of mine that I look up to that wants me to kill his wife. Yeah. And I looked at him, I said, joe, you would never do that. He goes, no, I wouldn't. I said, okay. If anything, he would never lie to me because he has no reason to. Yeah. What was your thought?

Narrator/Interviewer (25:20)

But did he? We were baffled. Of course. We considered the possibility David was involved, but we had never come across any evidence other than the weak, alleged evidence that was presented at trial to indicate that. Until now. And just in time. We finally got approval to talk to Joe Wilkes. On the way to the prison. We talked about how the visit was going to go. John and Dany were not allowed to bring anything into the prison. No recorder, no notepad. They could not bring anything in. So everything had to be in their heads and relayed back to me immediately while it was fresh.

Narrator/Interviewer (26:11)

We have sort of the high points of everything that I want to make sure we mention, understanding that conversation is going to go in whatever direction it goes in. But there's some things that we definitely want to talk about. So, you know, my intention is to, again, sort of try to get the slate clean.

Narrator/Interviewer (26:34)

Remember, there have been multiple versions of Joe's story, the original story that David hired him. Then he told A story where David was not involved, but he went over to proposition Yvonne for sex and she was already dead. He also said he went there to invite her to his own party he was having at the hotel at the mall.

Narrator/Interviewer (26:55)

Let's start. Doesn't matter what you said in the past. Just tell us, you know, what. What was going on around that time. What was going on around that. On. Around that day. Let him get blocked into a story and then go from there. He's given us enough bullets to tear apart whatever it is. It doesn't matter. Yeah. Yeah. So we just. We almost Columbo him and play confused just to let. And then here's my thought with him. He's not stupid. If he sees us struggling to process information he gives us, we just shut up. Yep. And let him try and substantiate what he's just said. Just quizzically, you know, facially express to him that we're not understanding him to see if he corrects it. But it's effective because people generally, especially engaged in a great conversation want to help understand what. But they're trying. You know, there's the receiver and the communicator, and you want the communicator to feel like, oh, I didn't get that out. Right. You let him bring you more.

Narrator/Interviewer (28:08)

Yeah.

Narrator/Interviewer (28:09)

Because the more he gives us, the more we can angle. Angle our response. Yeah. So one thing that I do want to, you know, talk about at some point is his relationship with Amy and, you know, see if we can get him to the point where we think one way or the other as far as could they have had conversations with each other unbeknownst to David?

Narrator/Interviewer (28:37)

This was something we wondered after talking with Chris. Could Joe have done something without David's knowledge?

Narrator/Interviewer (28:44)

There's a few things that I want to ask him about regarding Sam. Okay. Tell us about your interactions with Sam, you know, during that time as it relates to this case. Then if he leaves out that he told her that in the basement, then, you know, we'll hit him. This is your ally that we talked to is a great conversation. You know, let him know that she is an ally. But she did say some things that are troubling. Did you see two people at the food court in the mall? Yeah.

Narrator/Interviewer (29:12)

I still think it's very possible that was made up and police told him to say you saw them because he was not in his first statement that. Who else did you tell about this? Just Sam.

Narrator/Interviewer (29:25)

It's possible. But then, you know, what did you know about Chris? What happened? You know, what was he pretty much racist? Yeah.

Narrator/Interviewer (29:36)

And the knife. There is record of a knife being purchased on March 31, 1999. The Kmart loss Prevention people testified at trial that this was the only trade folding pocket knife of that kind. Not only bought on that day, but from January 1999 to July 1999. But was the knife in the drain. And the knife purchased at Kmart that day, Joe's knife? The one prosecutor said he used to kill Yvonne.

Narrator/Interviewer (30:12)

Yeah. Yeah. What were this. What were the exact circumstances of getting to that night in the storm drain? You know, it was. Well, the cops led me there. Okay, cops led you there. What was the conversation leading up to? Getting there, you know, and. And, you know, we'll go down this road for sure of. Listen, are you covering for David?

Narrator/Interviewer (30:38)

Yeah.

Narrator/Interviewer (30:42)

That looks like a prison up there.

Narrator/Interviewer (31:04)

Coming up on death and deceit in Alliance.

Narrator/Interviewer (31:06)

We are in the Detective Bureau at the Alliance Police Department. We're investigating the homicide of Yvonne Lane. Can you tell us your part in this? I asked him what it was, and he said, to kill somebody. And at that point, I really didn't care about life or nothing. So why did David want this done? So David could have his little boy. He wouldn't have to pay so much money. So what did David say to you? I'll pay you to do something for me. He asked me if I would do it. I told him yes. Are you sorry for what you did? I can't believe I did it. It took advantage of me.

Narrator/Interviewer (31:46)

Death and Deceit in Alliance is produced and reported by me, Maggie Freeling with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt. Aaron Case is our legal researcher. Our executive producer is Steve Fishman. Our engineer and production coordinator is Austin Smith. Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer. New school year, new routines and somehow your calendar is already full. When life gets hectic, cauliflower's got your back. We make the food you crave made better for you. Like thin and crispy cauliflower crust pizzas. All natural chicken tenders and nostalgic pizza snacks. Ready in minutes in something the whole.

Narrator/Interviewer (32:34)

Family can agree on.

Narrator/Interviewer (32:35)

Cauliflower is available in freezer aisles nationwide. Visit eatcolliepower.com to find a store near you.

Narrator/Interviewer (32:42)

America, America, you used to be so fun but now you go to bed at 9 to scrolling on your phone. Well, listen up, America, Carnival is here. There's comedy and snorkeling and dining like everything from sea to shining sea Find your fun again today Carnival is calling. Save up to 40% off your cruise vacation offer.

Narrator/Interviewer (33:08)

Plastic cruise, fairly restrict and supply.

Narrator/Interviewer (33:09)

Visit carnival.com for details. Ships Registry the Bahamas and Panama Tis.

Narrator/Interviewer (33:13)

The season for identity theft. This time of year most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists.

Narrator/Interviewer (33:19)

But guess what?

Narrator/Interviewer (33:20)

Identity thieves have lists too and your personal information might be on them. Protect Your identity with LifeLock LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you.

Narrator/Interviewer (33:33)

Could miss by yourself even if you.

Narrator/Interviewer (33:35)

Keep an eye on your bank and credit card statements. If your identity is stolen, your own US based restoration specialist will fix it guaranteed or your money back. And all plans are backed by the million dollar protection package.

Narrator/Interviewer (33:48)

The last thing you want to do this holiday season is face drained accounts.

Narrator/Interviewer (33:52)

Fraudulent loans or other financial losses from identity theft all alone. Make this season about joy, not identity theft. With Lifelock, save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms apply.