Death & Deceit in Alliance | 12. The Choir Boy

Summary

The Burden — Death & Deceit in Alliance

Episode 12: "The Choir Boy" (January 2, 2026)

Host: Maggie Freleng
Co-Investigators: Danny and John

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Episode Overview

In this pivotal episode, Maggie Freleng and her investigative team grapple with the evolving truth in the case of Yvonne Layne’s 1999 murder, for which David Thorne was convicted based on Joe Wilkes’ confession and later implication of David. The team finally meets Joe Wilkes in prison and returns with a series of emotional revelations, shifting timelines, and a shocking new discovery—calling into question their beliefs about the roles of both Joe and David. The episode delves deep into the ambiguity surrounding Joe’s memory, possible police coercion, and the psychological and emotional toll the investigation is taking on the investigators themselves.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Visiting Joe Wilkes in Prison

• [03:52] Maggie, Danny, and John visit Marion Correctional Institution to meet Joe Wilkes for the first time after nearly a year of anticipation.
• Maggie is left in the parking lot, expressing her hunger, anxiety, and anticipation.

  "Joe Wilkes right there. And I'm just sitting and I'm so frustrated and excited and nervous and waited." —Maggie [05:00]

2. First Impressions of Joe Wilkes

• [05:27]–[07:31] Danny and John report that Joe appears tough but is affable, articulate, and “very smart.”

  "He's a smart guy. He's very engaging. He's good communicator, great vocabulary, a very likable guy." —Danny [05:49]

• The humanity of Joe surfaces: he gets emotional hearing that people on the outside still care for him.

  "He turned his body sideways because his eyes were filling up with tears. And it was touching for us because we're like this. This is a good guy who does still care." —John [07:31]

3. Police Conduct and Possible Coercion

• [11:22]–[12:46] The team discusses Joe’s account of his interrogation, suggesting coercion:
  • Joe says he was treated like a captive by police (“restrained”).

  "If he was handcuffed and chained to a wall, that's just not true. That's not. You're not free to leave." —John [11:46]

  • Police allegedly slammed graphic crime scene photos down and “fed him the story.”

  "They told him what happened. They told him what happened. And essentially that's what happened." —Danny [12:32]

  • Claims of statements being shaped by police from the moment they picked him up.

4. Contradictory Timelines and Memory Gaps

• [14:44]–[17:45] Maggie presses on Joe’s timeline. Joe presents conflicting stories:
  • Claims he visited Yvonne between 3–5pm on March 31 to proposition her, left when she declined, saw friends at the mall after.
  • Next thing he remembers, he's in the shower the following morning—no memory of the critical intervening hours.

  "He says he has no idea what happened after he saw Rose and Chris." —Maggie [17:44]

5. Is Joe Lying or Broken?

• [15:36]–[17:48] The team is conflicted about Joe’s truthfulness. They agree Joe seems to believe what he says:

  “I believe he believes he didn’t do this.” —John [15:29]

• The possibility arises that Joe genuinely has a memory black-out or amnesia—a 14-hour gap—potentially due to trauma or (as Joe speculates) being drugged.

6. Did Joe Do It? Did David?

• [20:23]–[22:05] Debate ensues over whether Joe could have killed Yvonne, especially in a rage from rejection, and whether a blackout could cover such violence.

  “He goes to the trouble to get this room. … She doesn’t show. … Maybe he has to be wondering, did I kill him?” —John [21:41]

• The team reviews timelines and alibis, noting contradictions with witness testimonies (e.g., the Enochs’ timeline).

7. Crushing Uncertainty and Emotional Fallout

• [26:08]–[33:22] Emotional exhaustion is palpable as Maggie and the team confront the uncertainty in their findings.
• Maggie serendipitously discovers a police report and audio interview with Angie (David’s ex), missing from her original transcripts, which implies selective omission.

  “This didn’t seem like an accidental oversight to omit Angie's transcript. … It seemed like this was an audio recording I wasn't meant to know about.” —Maggie [38:29]

8. Shocking New Evidence

• [39:04] The tape from Angie reveals descriptions of David as "mean, very aggressive, very abus[ive]."
  • This revelation further clouds Maggie’s belief in David’s innocence.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Joe’s demeanor:

  "He listens extremely well. Like he is processing. He's very good at processing shared information, very focused." —John [06:01]

• On coercion:

  "They told him what happened. They told him what happened. And essentially that's what happened." —Danny [12:32]

• On memory blackouts:

  "Maybe after all these years, the reason he has told so many different stories is because he just can't remember." —Maggie [18:03]

• On emotional toll:

  "It was just all so much to take in. Going into this investigation, thinking I would find one thing and having the facts start to lay out something different." —Maggie [30:56]

• On doubts about David’s innocence:

  “I'm just like, what if David did this? … And I just invested all of this hell bent on his innocence?” —Maggie [32:26]

• On the investigation process:

  "Sometimes the bumbling idiots get it right by accident." —John [34:56]
  "A broken clock is right twice a day." —Danny [35:00]

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Important Timestamps

• [03:52] Arrival at Marion Correctional Institution
• [05:08] The team’s first meeting with Joe Wilkes
• [07:31] Joe’s emotional reaction to hearing people care about him
• [11:22] Question of police coercion introduced
• [13:32] The “shrade knife” evidence and its mystery
• [14:49] Joe adamantly denies guilt
• [16:44] Joe’s confusing and contradictory timeline
• [18:03] Discussion of Joe’s potential memory blackout
• [20:23] The possibility that Joe killed Yvonne in a rage
• [22:05] Timeline contradictions with other witness testimonies
• [26:08] Investigators struggle with emotional exhaustion and uncertainty
• [38:29] Discovery of Angie’s missing interview transcript
• [39:04] Angie’s account of David’s aggression and abuse

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Flow, Tone, & Conclusion

The episode is raw, candid, and emotionally turbulent. The tone shifts from investigative determination to confusion, self-doubt, and emotional vulnerability, especially for Maggie, who feels the crushing weight of possibly being wrong in her years-long quest for David’s exoneration. The emerging evidence—including Angie’s account of David’s past aggression—forces the team to reconsider their own biases and the very foundations of the story they’re unravelling.

Final thought:
This installment stands out for its willingness to question not only the facts but the process itself—how belief, bias, and the desire for justice can color an investigation. By the end, both the case and the investigators are more ambiguous than ever, with new evidence promising yet another episode of difficult revelation.

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Up Next:
A fresh focus on David Thorne’s real character and new, previously unheard interviews. The search for truth, no matter how uncomfortable, continues.

Transcript

[Maggie Freeling]

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[Matt Graves]

Hey listeners, this is Matt Graves, host of the Butcher of Moss. The unbelievable story of a terrifying series of sadistic murders and a quest to find the killer three decades later. I'm excited to share the Butcher of Moss with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an I Heart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control.

[Danny]

And he said, I've been in prison 24, 25 years. That's probably not long enough.

[John]

I didn't kill him.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance.

Is there any version of the story that is he's sticking to?

[Danny]

That's a tough one to answer.

[Maggie Freeling]

My boyfriend at the time, we saw him there that night. We didn't know it was that night at the time.

[Danny]

If David did this and you know you didn't and you're protecting him or whatever, then we need to know that.

[Maggie Freeling]

What did you say? Think is he this, like, bumbling idiot that, you know, it seems like he's been portrayed as.

[John]

How confident are you that Joe had made mention that his friend David wanted his wife killed before it happened?

[Maggie Freeling]

Oh, yeah.

This is death and deceit. An alliance. A real time investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling. We pulled up to the Marion Correctional Institution, a medium security prison with 2,500 prisoners. It looked a lot like, well, a prison. High walls, turrets with guards with rifles, barbed wire. The kind of place that's very scary to visit.

[Danny]

I guess we turn in. Well, yeah, I don't know. I think we go up. Well, I don't know. They're not being very helpful.

[John]

I think it's down here.

[Danny]

I think so too.

[John]

It's fenced in.

[Danny]

Yeah. I think we could have a couple hours if we wanted. From what I understand.

[Maggie Freeling]

And there is no texting me, so I could be sitting here for four hours.

[Danny]

We're not going to be in there for four hours.

[Maggie Freeling]

Famous last words.

[Danny]

All right, hold on.

[John]

Can we have a smoke first?

[Danny]

I'm going to go ahead and go in.

[Maggie Freeling]

They took everything out of their pockets. Left phones, recorders, notebooks. And they left me alone in the car in the parking lot.

[Danny]

All right, let's go. Hello.

[Maggie Freeling]

This was the conversation we'd been working up to for months. We'd been circling Joe, talking to everyone around him. He was the mystery at the center of this, the guy who implicated himself and David. Would Joe give us something new? I had built him up in my mind for months, nearly a year. And now we were here. The guys were inside meeting him and I was stuck waiting in the car and I waited and waited. I made some Instagram videos.

Joe Wilkes right there. And I'm just sitting and I'm so frustrated and excited and nervous and waited.

And sure enough, almost exactly four hours later, the guys emerged.

[Danny]

How'd you survive out here? Hi, Mags.

[Maggie Freeling]

The answer to how it's going is I'm incredibly hungry and anxious.

You guys go in, you meet Joe. What are your impressions of Joe?

[Danny]

Yeah, I was glad to finally meet Joe.

[Maggie Freeling]

Joe apparently looked good. He's 62 and in great shape. Prison muscles. He had tattoos up and down both arms. They said he looked tough.

[Danny]

We thought about him.

[Maggie Freeling]

I mean, what did you think? Is he this like, bumbling idiot that, you know, it seems like he's been portrayed as.

[Danny]

Absolutely not. He's very. He's a smart guy. He's very engaging. He's good communicator, great vocabulary, a very likable guy.

[John]

He listens extremely well. Like he is processing. He's very good at processing shared information, very focused.

[Danny]

And it was, you know, I liked Joe. I liked sitting with Joe for three plus hours. I really found him engaging. And I just like the guy, you know, I think frankly, over the last couple decades, as you know, David's had at least a staunch advocate this whole time and plenty of staunch advocates now. It's good to, you know, it was good for Joe to hear that there are people that he knew and loved back then that still are out here and remember him as a kind guy that they loved then and still love today. And that really overwhelmed him to know.

[Maggie Freeling]

That that's probably the first time he found that out.

[Danny]

Yeah, years.

[Maggie Freeling]

He probably didn't even know that back then.

The guys told me Joe got choked up hearing about the people on the outside that still care about him, like Sam and Chris, even me.

[John]

We weren't trying to make him emotion.

[Danny]

No, not at all.

[John]

It was very natural.

[Danny]

Yeah. We were passing messages along to him that we told people we would pass along to us.

[John]

And while we were face to face at that moment, he turned his body sideways because his eyes were filling up with tears. And it, it was touching for us because we're like this. This is a good guy who does still care. He has love for people.

[Danny]

At one point he said, I've been in the system my whole life, since I was one year old. Either foster care or, you know, jail, prison. But I've been in the system my entire life.

[Maggie Freeling]

But you're not here to know that the guys liked Joe. You want to know if the police got this wrong? You want to know what really happened in Yvonne Lane's house the night of March 31, 1999? So do I.

[Matt Graves]

Hey, listeners, this is Matt Graves, host of le Monstre season 2, the Butcher of Mans. In the mid-90s in the city of Mons in Belgium, women began to go missing one after the other. Despite a sprawling investigation, including assistance from the American FBI, the murders have never been solved.

[Maggie Freeling]

Police are now confirming that the body cut into pieces. It's ducked into two plastic.

[Matt Graves]

Three decades later, we've unearthed new evidence, new witnesses, and new suspects. I'm excited to share the Butcher of Moss with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an I Heart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus you'll get access to all episodes of the monster franchise bingeable ad free and with exclusive bonus episodes available only to iHeart True Crime plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts. Search for iheart True Crime plus Malcolm Gladwell here.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988, to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth Senate's family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

[Anna Runkle]

He would say to himself, turn to.

[Maggie Freeling]

The right, to the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love him.

[Anna Runkle]

So he would have this little practice.

[Maggie Freeling]

To the right. I'm sorry. To the left. I love you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Radhi Devlukia]

Hi, I'm Radhi Devlukia, and I am the host of a really good Cry podcast. This week, I am joined by Anna Runkle, also known as the crappy Childhood Fairy, a creator, teacher, and guide, helping people heal from the lasting emotional wound of unsafe or chaotic childhoods. We talk about how the things we went through when we were younger can still show up in our adult lives, in our relationships, our reactions, even in the way we feel in our own bodies. And Anna opens up about her own story, what helped her notice the patterns she was stuck in and how she slowly started teaching her body that it is safe now.

[Anna Runkle]

So when I got attacked, it was very random. Four guys jumped out of a car and just started beating me and my friend, and they broke my jaw and my teeth. I was unconscious. Then I woke up and I screamed and I screamed because even though I didn't know who I was or where I was, something in me was just like, hold on, wait. They could kill me. And I'm not going to let that happen. I'm not going to let that happen. I'm going to get through this.

[Radhi Devlukia]

And I did listen to a really good cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Maggie Freeling]

Do you guys believe that there was coercion from police?

[Danny]

Yes. Yeah, I believe at best, they did some things that they should not have done to forward this case.

[Maggie Freeling]

The guy said that even though Joe was told by police he could leave at any Time he said he was treated like a captive. He told them he was restrained, but.

[John]

If he was handcuffed and chained to a wall, that's just not true. That's not. You're not free to live.

[Maggie Freeling]

The cops slammed down photos, he said, bloody photos of the crime scene and made him stare at them.

[John]

And they're slapping pictures down on the table. And he said he was horrified looking at these pictures. And then they come in and introduce this statement that David had written.

[Maggie Freeling]

Joe says police tell him that David is basically pointing the finger at him, even though he wasn't.

[John]

And he said he's so overwhelmed by the graphic nature of these photos, he's not reading what this document reportedly. Was David giving a statement.

[Maggie Freeling]

So they. Did they tell him what to say?

[Danny]

He said that they gave him a statement that they. They told him what happened. They told him what happened. And essentially that's what happened.

[Maggie Freeling]

Like you did this and this and this?

[Danny]

Yes. David hired him to do it.

[John]

And he said it actually started in the car ride when they picked him up. They're in the car with him telling him, oh, yeah, David. David Thorne told us you killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We've heard this before. Joe testified at trial, saying they fed him the story. I asked about his best friend, Sam Pegg. Did he say he told Sam that he killed Yvonne?

Did he say he told Sam Pegg?

[Danny]

He says that he. He didn't tell her that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And.

[Danny]

He does not remember ever telling her that. Says he didn't.

[Maggie Freeling]

The shrade knife. Whose knife is that? How is it there?

[Danny]

There's.

[John]

He has no recollection of. He said, I had plenty of knives. I didn't buy a knife at Kmart that day.

[Maggie Freeling]

But the cop's story is that Joe took them to find the knife that they claim was the murder weapon.

[Danny]

But he says specifically that it was the police that took him to where that knife was going to be.

[John]

Will it draft.

[Maggie Freeling]

So Rose and Chris, did he see them?

[John]

Yes.

[Danny]

Yes, he did see them the night of. That Wednesday night. Saw them at the mall, bumped into them, says the conversation was casual, that he did not give any statements about he was there to kill somebody. And in fact, he, you know, he specifically said, I'm not a stupid guy.

[John]

If.

[Danny]

If I was there to kill somebody, I'm not going to tell two people that I'm there to kill somebody and then go kill them.

[Maggie Freeling]

Did he know Yvonne?

[John]

Yes.

[Maggie Freeling]

So he, like this question of, had he been there? Did he know her?

[Danny]

Yes, he had been to her house multiple times.

[Maggie Freeling]

Big question is, did Joe say he did this?

[Danny]

No, Joe said he absolutely did not do this. So he adamantly maintains his innocence that he did not kill a Von Lane.

[Maggie Freeling]

Did David do this?

[John]

No indication. Yeah.

[Danny]

No indication that David did this. He believes that David didn't do it. He. He told us that over and over. That David didn't have anything to do with it. He didn't have anything to do with it.

[Maggie Freeling]

So you found him to be honest?

[Danny]

Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

Or at least I mean. I mean, when he tells you I didn't do this, do you believe him? Do you believe that he believes he didn't do this?

[John]

I believe he believes he didn't do this.

[Matt Graves]

Yeah.

[Danny]

I absolutely believe he believes he didn't do it.

[Maggie Freeling]

I know this sounds confusing. Someone either committed murder or didn't. Right. Well, we know that people can lie to themselves. They can black stuff out. They can convince themselves that something is the truth, even if it objectively isn't. And they said Joe seemed believable when he said he was innocent. And for whatever it's worth, they didn't sense he was lying to them. And then I asked what I thought was a simple question.

Do we have a timeline for him? What is his story?

[Danny]

We don't have the timeline that we would like to have.

[John]

As far as the events of that.

[Danny]

Night, Is that what we're asking?

[John]

Well, I'll let you take it.

[Danny]

You know, there's just. There's a version of events that he's sticking to. Yes. So to answer your question, yes, there is a version of events that he's sticking to. Now the follow up question is, what's that version of events?

[Maggie Freeling]

And this is where Joe's story gets even more complicated than we ever imagined. Remember, the coroner couldn't pinpoint the exact time of death. He gave a 12 hour window that started at 7pm the night of the 31st. Joe tells them that March 31st, between 3 to 5pm he got dropped off at the mall and walked to Yvonne's to proposition her for sex. Now he said in one of these versions, when he got there, she was dead. This time he said when he got there, he showed her a $100 bill and told her he had a room at the Comfort Inn. Yvonne said she'd come by later. So Joe left. When he got back to the mall, that's when he saw Rose and Chris. And then Joe says the next thing he remembers, he's in the shower. The next morning, April 1, he says he has no idea what happened after he saw Rose and Chris.

Do you believe him that he can't remember, or do you think he's lying?

[John]

You know what? I think he really doesn't know. I think he really doesn't remember. Now, has he suppressed that subconsciously or consciously? Quite possibly.

[Maggie Freeling]

This was just incredible to me. Maybe after all these years, the reason he has told so many different stories is because he just can't remember. Maybe he thought no one would believe him if he said he had amnesia. For 14 hours, I'm more confused than ever. We continued to work through scenarios.

Was there this. I have someone coming over. I'll meet you later.

[Danny]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

So that person could have killed her. Could have. Who was that person?

[John]

Well, he.

[Danny]

Well, he even said if. If I knew that, I wouldn't still be sitting here right now.

[Maggie Freeling]

So she. According to him, he went there. Proposition, Proposition. She said, okay, I will meet you at the hotel. I got someone coming over now. And he goes back to the hotel and sees Rosa Chris. And that's it.

Joe says he doesn't know who the supposed visitor was.

But did he seem frustrated or did it seem like a convenient lapse in.

[John]

No.

[Danny]

Oh, he's frustrated by it.

[John]

Didn't seem like he was using it to his convenience. I really think he struggles to find what's true, what's not.

[Maggie Freeling]

They said they felt Joe was trying desperately to help them figure out what was going on. They felt he recognized this is the first time not just David would be getting a fair shot. And that meant maybe it was his turn, too.

Did he think it was weird the next morning that he doesn't remember anything or.

[Danny]

No, he. Yes, he thinks it's weird. I mean, and he even said. He said, I don't. I'm not trying to get too far out there, but I almost wonder if somebody drugged me and I didn't know it.

[John]

I felt like he really wanted to genuinely give us his best.

[Danny]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so, too.

[John]

And a lot of that was he wanted to impress us because he wants us to fight for him.

[Maggie Freeling]

So if this is true, that Joe is at the house, that's going to be really hard to get around. And that leads us to the possibility that Joe did do it.

What are the chances? This kind man snaps because Yvonne just doesn't want to have sex with him.

[John]

I don't know.

[Danny]

I don't know what the chances are.

[John]

You know.

[Danny]

I mean, that's one of the possibilities that we have to.

[John]

Part of me is like, I feel like that's definitely possible. He goes to the trouble to get this room. His impression Is that she's easy. He's finally going to get him some. She doesn't show. She doesn't show. He sits there and fumes. Here he is in a hotel room by himself. Down to his last hundred bucks.

[Maggie Freeling]

He doesn't seem like a fumer. We've never heard of him getting mad.

[Danny]

No, he's. Yeah.

[John]

So either goes back down there to confront her about not showing up, kills her, or goes back down there to confront her about not showing up and finds her dead body.

[Danny]

Or.

[Maggie Freeling]

And both could be in the hotel.

[John]

Room and wakes up in the shower.

[Maggie Freeling]

The blackout is so confusing. Maybe he really did walk in on her dead and blacked it out.

[John]

That's just gone in his mind. And he's either intentionally pocketed and never let it out or subconsciously it is just so buried. He's not going to go there. He's not going to retrieve. There's no desire to. I think maybe in his mind he's afraid. Maybe he has to be wondering, did I kill him?

[Maggie Freeling]

And while we were processing, there was something strange that stuck out to John and Danny in the four hours they were with Joe. The timeline. He said he was at Yvonne's between three and five, but we know for a fact Joe was at the Enochs at 5pm with David and the lion. The Enochs, those are the parents of Joe's friend who'd taken him in for a short time. And Brent Enoch testified that he took Joe to do a job and dropped him off at the mall at 8pm this was testified to at trial. Joe, David and the Enochs all agreed at trial. That's where everyone was at 5pm so why is Joe making something up that is so obviously not corroborated?

[Matt Graves]

Hey, listeners, this is Matt Graves, host of le Monstre season 2, the Butcher of Mans. In the mid-90s in the city of Mans in Belgium, women began to go missing one after the other. Despite a sprawling investigation, including assistance from the American FBI, the murders have never been solved.

[Maggie Freeling]

Police are now confirming that the body cut into pieces and stuffed into two plastic.

[Matt Graves]

Three decades later, we've unearthed new evidence, new witnesses and new suspects. I'm excited to share the Butcher of Moss with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an I Heart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus you'll get access to all episodes of the monster franchise bingeable ad free and with exclusive bonus episodes available only to I Heart True Crime plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts. Search for I Heart true crime plus Malcolm Gladwell here.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime and that would spiral out of control. 35 years. That's how long Elizabeth Senate's family waited for justice to occur. 35 long years. I want to figure out why this case went on for as long as it did, why it took so many bizarre and unsettling turns along the way, and why, despite our best efforts to resolve suffering, we all too often make suffering worse.

[Anna Runkle]

He would say to himself, turn to.

[Maggie Freeling]

The right, to the victim's family and apologize. Turn to the left. Tell my family I love him.

[Anna Runkle]

So he had this little practice.

[Maggie Freeling]

To the right. I'm sorry. To the left. I love you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From Revisionist History, this is the Alabama Murders. Listen to Revisionist History, the Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Radhi Devlukia]

Hi, I'm Radhi Devlukia and I am the host of a really good cry podcast. This week I am joined by Anna Runkle, also known as the Crappy CH Childhood Fairy, a creator, teacher and guide, helping people heal from the lasting emotional wounds of unsafe or chaotic childhoods. We talk about how the things we went through when we were younger can still show up in our adult lives, in our relationships, our reactions, even in the way we feel in our own bodies. And Anna opens up about her own story, what helped her notice the patterns she was stuck in and how she slowly started teaching her body that it is safe now.

[Anna Runkle]

So when I got attacked, it was very random. Four guys jumped out of a car and just started beating me and my friend and they broke my jaw, my teeth. I was unconscious. Then I woke up and I screamed and I screamed because even though I didn't know who I was or where I was, something in me was just like, hold on, wait, they could kill me. And I'm not going to let that happen. I'm not going to let that happen. I'm going to get through this.

[Radhi Devlukia]

And I did listen to a really good cry on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast cost.

[Maggie Freeling]

Do we have next steps right now? How are you feeling? What are you thinking?

[John]

Well, that's, that's, it's a lot. I mean, these. If it was, if it was easy, we would all fly in with our camera crew and do a three day investigation and talk to Forbes people We talk to eight people today and I work till midnight or one o' clock and then we have to decompress and revisit all the bits of information and say how does this puzzle fit together? And it's a lot because the memories, you know, Joe let us know he. And that's the challenge on how we proceed is because there are things that Joe just does not, not remember as bad as he wants to. He. He goes to bed every night with the full recognition that Yvonne Lane is. Her death is the reason that he's sleeping in that bunk. And in the morning, each morning when he wakes up, he has still full recognition that Yvonne Lane, her murder is the reason he's waking up at.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Danny]

Even if he did not do it right, her death is what led to him being in there.

[John]

So dreams, visions, the hopes, reliving old memories, reminiscing whatever it may be, the autopsy photos, the trial, the civil trial, the reporters and investigators, the advocates for David, everything that he's experienced. It's very hard for him to remember what's real and what's not.

[Maggie Freeling]

I can't imagine that.

So maybe he's just making up the blackout so he doesn't have to answer any questions about what happened between him and David. Maybe he's banking on DNA to point to someone else. And if it doesn't, Joe can always say, well, I told you I was there that night and was just confused. Maybe they did do it together after all. 14 hour amnesia is quite convenient. And then John finally says it.

[Danny]

I mean, if I'm sitting here right now, I think that Joe had.

[John]

I think that it's tough just to get the words out, isn't it? Just to say what we know to be, be true, what we believe is very plausible. How about that? Yeah, what the fuck is true anymore?

[Maggie Freeling]

After processing in the car, John admits he believes Joe was involved. Even though the writing is on the wall. I just wasn't ready to admit it. I couldn't get past that there could have been someone else there, that someone else could have killed her.

[John]

She definitely had enough traffic at that point Place for this to have been a house where that kind of event may have happened.

[Danny]

That's right.

[John]

But God dang, the totality of right over Sam, Sam's statement, Kristen Rose's statement, Chris's.

[Danny]

I mean, Joe, his turn left, turn left, turn left. I mean we, we all agree that this is a.

[Maggie Freeling]

Violent scene, like even in a blackout. I don't know if Joe had that rage.

[Danny]

I have no idea.

[Maggie Freeling]

I mean that's what I'm saying. I don't know. And I would love an expert to tell me if they've ever seen that. Yeah, like rage like that come out in a blackout.

[John]

Yeah, good point.

[Danny]

I mean, what's the old saying? I mean, this isn't clinical blackout, but I'm seeing red. You're so damn mad that you can't even. You just fucking see red. You know you can't.

[Maggie Freeling]

And so let's say Joe was involved.

Do you believe him when he says David's not involved?

[John]

That's tough.

[Danny]

That's tough. You know, I mean there's, there's, listen, there's a lot of scenarios that are possible right now. Do I. Yes, I believe him. But there's still some things that, some questions that need to be answered. You know, I go back to. And that's just a scenario that we have to consider at this point, or I do anyway. I still looking back at Sam, found her to be pretty damn credible last night.

[Maggie Freeling]

It was just all so much to take in. Going into this investigation, thinking I would find one thing and having the facts start to lay out something different. If Joe was involved, it really raises the question, was David too? I've spent two years trying to figure that out, expecting the answers to be no. David Thorne was innocent. But laying out the facts we've gathered, reconciling what they all point to overwhelmed me.

I don't know, I feel like I got like really wrapped up. I feel like I got emotional. I don't know, I'd feel really confused.

[John]

This is emotional work. You're dealing with people's lives.

[Maggie Freeling]

That's normal.

[John]

Really confused. That's normal. I don't want. I have no regrets.

[Maggie Freeling]

This, you guys have spent so much time.

[John]

This has been a great journey for us.

[Danny]

And it's not over.

[John]

That's the thing that I'm not even there and the towel is still in the, in the trainer's bench. We're not throwing it in. Yeah, we have work to do.

[Danny]

It is deflating. But that's how every single one of these cases goes. I mean, there are deflating days. There are. You know, that's just the reality of it.

[Maggie Freeling]

I'm just like, what if David did this?

[Danny]

It's a fair question, Maggie.

[Maggie Freeling]

I don't think he did. But now I'm really like, what if he fucking did And I just invested all of this hell bent on his innocence?

And I'm just going to add, I can now see how investigators and law enforcement get tunnel vision, make a judgment and look for ways to prove it. I had to try so hard not to do that here. Even when I saw the writing on the wall, my heart was still telling me something else.

I think it's. I think I just felt so strongly for a while, and now I just don't know. And it's just all hitting me. I know I never have emotions, so that's a lot.

[Danny]

I know.

[Maggie Freeling]

I just think about Sue. I don't want to have to say to her.

[Danny]

I know. I know, Maggie.

[John]

That.

[Danny]

The whole thought of all that makes me really sad, too. Everybody that we have talked to, everything that we have learned, everything that has, every direction that we've been pointed in, for the most part, has shown this is a worthy case to investigate, definitely. So it's a worthy case to investigate. So I have no regrets. But worthy cases sometimes don't pan out to be an innocence case.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah. Yeah, I don't wanna say that. To me.

[John]

We're not even there. We're not there. Look, we're fighters, all of us. Right or win or lose, right or wrong, we're fighting through this to get to the answers.

[Maggie Freeling]

Answers that I just wasn't ready to deal with.

[Danny]

But there are some real issues with this.

[Maggie Freeling]

There are where I can go.

[John]

I'm.

[Maggie Freeling]

Now, am I trying to convince myself he didn't do this? Because I don't want to deal with the fact that I just fucking threw an entire department under the bus for fucking up an investigation that maybe they didn't.

[Danny]

Well, what I told Danny while you were on the phone, I said, listen, it's not mutually exclusive.

[John]

I mean, sometimes the bumbling idiots get it right by accident.

[Danny]

Well, a broken clock is right twice a day, so.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, I'm just trying to reckon with that right now.

[Danny]

I know, Maggie. I know. Believe me, I know.

[John]

If it turns out, worst case scenario, we were wrong and David did have a role in this, and anyway, we at least can go to bed and say we gave it everything we had. More than any other in their TV shows or their reporting. Anyone else? Yeah. There was enough. Enough damage done in this investigation to warrant us being here. The commitment we all made to this.

[Danny]

Yeah.

[John]

Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

I just feel a little stupid right now.

[Danny]

No, no, no, no, no.

[John]

Why would you feel stupid? You have something that was brought into our life for a reason. And I'm not trying to be Zig Ziglar here. I'm just saying we're here for a reason. I. I haven't given up on David or Joe. We have to keep trudging on body blows come in every true investigation, right? Especially 22 year old murder investigations. Yeah, yeah.

[Danny]

This is, you know, this is a. This is a knockdown with a three count for sure.

[John]

Got seven to go.

[Maggie Freeling]

All right, where do we go? I mean, what are we, what are we even doing? It's 4 o'.

Clock.

What are we doing?

For the first time, we decided to pack it in for the day. We needed to take a break, hit the hotel bar and clear our heads. But I'm not much of a head clearer in a situation like this. My brain was swirling and it turns out neither are the guys. So we sat at the bar poring through documents, trying frantically, furiously to find something, something we missed. At least I was. I think I wanted something that would settle me, make me comfortable with all the time I'd invested in David Thorne and his claim of innocence. I don't know what the comfort would be, something solidly saying he's guilty or something solidly saying he's innocent. I don't know. But we did find something. Something that did give me the missing piece I was looking for. We came across a police report buried in the case file. One that would change everything. It was sue who had given me the case files. And in the file was a folder of transcripts of audio interviews. Every time I listened to an audio file, sue had a transcript she made to read along with it. Now, I had gotten the audio files myself from the DA's office, so I knew whatever they had given to the public, I also had. But I had never seen a transcript for this particular interview. So I checked my audio folder and sure, sure enough, there was an interview with a woman named Angie, the woman in the police report. But when I checked the transcripts again, there wasn't one. Maybe an oversight on Sue's behalf. But when I decided to listen to the interview with Angie and found out who she was and what she had to say, this didn't seem like an accidental oversight to omit Angie's transcript from the files. It seemed like this was an audio recording I wasn't meant to know about. Angie was David's ex girlfriend and she told police they dated for about five years, four years ago. So that would be around 1995, right before David met Yvonne. And this is tape from a police interview with Angie I had never heard before before.

[Danny]

Can you describe to me on, on the take here how he treated you and some of the incidences that happened while you were dating?

[Maggie Freeling]

He was very mean, very aggressive, very abus.

Coming up on death and Deceit in Alliance.

[Danny]

You know, I think there's a lot of questions that have never been asked of him. Who was he really? And I'm not. I don't want him to try to bullshit us.

[John]

You know, when you leave an interview and you feel like you've shared more information than the person who's fighting for their life, there's a reason behind that.

[Danny]

And I said point blank, did that happen? No. And then he changed the subject pretty quickly, man. Then it started turning into feeling sorry for David. I mean, for Joe, that's fine. You know, we know memories aren't tape recorders. Just tell us what you do remember.

[John]

And he left out. He was not going to bring up the fact that he was with Joe at the Enix.

[Danny]

Yeah, Hello? Is this Mr. Mr. Tool? Charlie Tool? I don't know who's this?

[Maggie Freeling]

Death and Deceit in Alliance is produced and reported by me, Maggie Freeling with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt. Aaron Case is our legal researcher. Our executive producer is Steve Fishman. Our engineer and production coordinator is Austin Smith. Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer.

[Matt Graves]

Foreign hey, listeners, this is Matt Graves, host of the Butcher of Moss, the unbelievable story of a terrifying series of sadistic murders and a quest to find the killer three decades later. I'm excited to share the Butcher of Moss with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an I Heart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Malcolm Gladwell here. This season on Revisionist History. We're going back to the spring of 1988 to a town in northwest Alabama where a man committed a crime that would spiral out of control.

[Danny]

And he said, I've been in prison 24, 25 years. That's probably not long enough.

[John]

I didn't kill him.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

From revisionist history, this is the Alabama murders. Listen to revisionist history. The Alabama murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Maggie Freeling]

She said, Johnny, the kids didn't come home last night.

[Danny]

Along the central Texas plains, teens are dying, suicides that don't make sense. Strange accidents and brutal murders in what seems to be a plot ripped straight out of Breaking Bad.

[Maggie Freeling]

Drugs, alcohol, trafficking of people.

There are people out there that absolutely know what happened.

[Danny]

Listen to paper ghosts, the Texas teen murders on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.