Death & Deceit in Alliance | 14. The Reckoning

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Burden – Death & Deceit in Alliance

Episode 14: The Reckoning
Host: Maggie Freleng
Date: January 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This capstone episode of Death & Deceit in Alliance delivers a raw, emotional, and deeply introspective reckoning with the murder case of Yvonne Layne and the conviction of David Thorne. After a year-long investigation—filled with dead ends, revisited interviews, new evidence (or lack thereof), and shifting testimonies—host Maggie Freleng confronts the painful possibility that she, and much of the innocence movement around Thorne, got it wrong. The episode grapples with the difference between a sloppy, perhaps corrupt investigation that left reasonable doubt and the actual innocence of a convicted man, ultimately asking: what happens when our justice warriors are themselves fallible?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Investigative Exhaustion and Emotional Toll

• Maggie Freleng recounts the toll of the investigation:
  • “Oh, wish I could be better. This case has destroyed me.” (03:25, Maggie)
  • Maggie and her team (including renowned journalists and private investigators) exhausted leads, erected tip-line billboards, re-interviewed witnesses, and pored over evidence for a year.
  • Dwayne Pullman, fellow investigator, empathizes: “It's been the bane of my existence, trust me.” (04:22, Dwayne)

2. Revisiting Testimonies—What Stuck, What Changed

• Sam Pegg’s pivotal account:

  • Sam consistently states that Joe told her both before and after the murder that David wanted Yvonne killed, and that Joe himself had done it. This double-time, “contemporaneous” confession seems hard to dismiss.
  • “She sticks by it too … But he did tell me this.” (08:02, Maggie)

• Joe’s financial windfall as circumstantial evidence:

  • Joe reportedly had only 50 cents before the murder and begged for cigarettes, but was seen spending $200 just after meeting with David post-murder (09:57–10:59).
  • “Is it a coincidence that this kid … after he sees David, suddenly spends around $200 shopping?” (11:09, Maggie)

3. Confronting David Thorne’s Narrative and Omissions

• David’s evasiveness and shifting stories:

  • When asked to reconstruct his timeline, David would “fully remove Joe from that day.” (11:41, Maggie)
  • Investigators felt they were “pulling information out of you.” (27:44, Dwayne)
  • David claims confusion due to overlapping questions, but both Maggie and the investigators reject this excuse, pointing to his legal representation present during interviews and the methodical nature of questioning (22:12–23:35).

• Domestic violence revelations:

  • David minimizes, then admits, to violent behavior—a key detail in understanding his character:
    • “He admitted to shooting at a car that a woman, his girlfriend, was sitting in.” (30:09, Maggie)

• Shifting knowledge about Yvonne's sex work:

  • David originally said he did not know about Yvonne’s sex work until after her death, but evidence (and his own statements) showed otherwise (30:20–31:33).

4. Investigative, Institutional, and Legal Failures

• Police mistakes do not equal innocence:

  • Maggie and Dwayne reflect on the fact that police incompetence and violations (like withheld exculpatory evidence) clouded the truth and fueled doubt in the conviction; yet, in re-examining the available evidence decades later, they found nothing that exonerated David or Joe (15:17–17:22).

• The inability to pursue further legal action:

  • “After a year of research ... we found absolutely, absolutely nothing that could help prove David or Joe's innocence. And what we did find was more damning than helpful.” (17:29, Maggie)

• Importance of new/withheld evidence in post-conviction work:

  • Innocence Projects require clear new evidence to proceed; this case did not meet that bar (17:44–18:19).

5. Maggie’s Personal Reckoning and Ethical Reflection

• On errors, humility, and justice:

  • Maggie owns the pain and shame of “getting it wrong,” framing it as a necessary act of journalistic honesty.
  • “I think it's crucial to talk about our fallibilities as journalists. Not only does it keep us honest, but it keeps us humble and human.” (36:29, Maggie)

• Empathy for Yvonne and her family:

  • The episode closes with a poignant reminder of the human cost:
    • “Her life was worth more than a pair of Nike shoes and some Rollerblades. Regardless of what choices she made in her life…her children, I hope at least that Yvonne's five boys can conclude what they want and remember her how they want.” (39:19, Maggie)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On investigative wall-hitting:

  “My hope of David fighting for his innocence was out the window.” (29:05, Maggie)

• On seeking truth vs. comfort:

  “The truth is the truth. Whether we are comfortable with it or not.” (16:34, Dwayne Pullman)

• On the limits of the wrongful conviction genre:

  “Sometimes the bumbling idiots get it right by accident.”
  “A broken clock is right twice a day.” (33:22–33:29, Maggie & Investigator)

• David Thorne’s love for Yvonne, at the end:

  "Whether she slept with people, didn't sleep with people, whether she did drugs, didn't do drugs. Why do I care what anyone thinks but me?" (41:10, David Thorne)
  “But what do you think about her?” (41:17, Maggie)
  “I loved her. She was crazy, but I loved her.” (41:20, David Thorne)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:25: Maggie: “This case has destroyed me.”
• 08:02: Sam Pegg’s account of Joe’s confessions
• 09:57–11:09: Suspicious financial changes for Joe
• 11:41: David’s problematic, shifting narrative
• 13:22–16:20: Maggie and Dwayne on police errors vs. innocence
• 17:29–18:19: Investigators decide they cannot take the case
• 22:12–23:35: David claims confusion during questioning
• 27:44: “They had to pull information out of you …”
• 30:09: David admits to violence against Angie
• 31:33: David’s shifting stories about knowledge of Yvonne’s sex work
• 33:22–33:29: “Sometimes the bumbling idiots get it right by accident. … A broken clock is right twice a day.”
• 36:29: Maggie’s ethical reckoning as a journalist
• 39:19: Empathy and message to Yvonne’s children
• 41:10–41:21: David’s final words on loving Yvonne

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Ambiguity and Doubt: Despite exhaustive inquiry, the reporting team could find no new evidence to exonerate David Thorne—and what they did find often pointed the other direction.
• The Justice System’s Imperfections: The investigation and trial were deeply compromised, but errors and incompetence are not the same as proof of wrongful conviction.
• Ethical Journalism: Maggie Freleng’s vulnerability and willingness to face her investigative errors become part of the story—a reminder that good intentions do not guarantee good outcomes.
• Justice for the Victim: Ultimately, Yvonne Layne, her family, and her children remain at the heart of the story, with the hope that, despite the doubts and decades of uncertainty, they can find some peace.

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For listeners new to the show:
This episode delivers a masterclass in ethical true crime journalism, showing how complex, ambiguous, and emotionally fraught real-life cases can be—and why both skepticism and humility are vital in the search for justice.

Transcript

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[David Thorne]

Hi there, it's Steve Fishman.

[Maggie Freeling]

I hope you're enjoying Death and deceit in Alliance.

[Commercial Announcer]

We've got a bonus episode coming for you.

[Investigator/Host]

It's not going to be this Tuesday.

[David Thorne]

It's going to be the following Friday. Please look for it. Maggie Freeling is going to be our guest.

[Investigator/Host]

She's bringing along Danny, one of the private eyes.

[Maggie Freeling]

And we're going to go deep both.

[Investigator/Host]

In the plot and on how Maggie feels. How Maggie feels about feeling so publicly.

[Maggie Freeling]

Okay, please tune in. Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance.

[Investigator/Host]

You know, I think there's a lot of questions that have never been asked of him.

[Commercial Announcer]

Who was he really?

[Investigator/Host]

And I'm not. I don't want him to try to bullshit us. You know when you leave an interview and you feel like you've shared more information than the person who's fighting for their life, there's a reason behind that. And I said point blank, did that happen? No.

[Commercial Announcer]

And then he changed the Subject pretty quickly, man. Then it started turning into feeling sorry for David. That's fine. You know, we know memories aren't tape recorders. Just tell us what you do remember.

[Investigator/Host]

And he left out.

[Maggie Freeling]

He was not going to bring up.

[Investigator/Host]

The fact that he was with Joe at the Enix.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, Hello?

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Maggie Freeling]

Charlie Toole?

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

I don't know.

[Investigator/Host]

Who's this?

[Maggie Freeling]

This is Death and Deceit, an alliance, A real time investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling.

[Investigator/Host]

Hi, Maggie.

[Maggie Freeling]

Hi, how are you?

[Investigator/Host]

I'm good, how are you?

[Maggie Freeling]

Oh, wish I could be better. This case has destroyed me.

[Investigator/Host]

Yeah, I told you. I warned you.

[Maggie Freeling]

Well, you did, so I guess I.

[Investigator/Host]

Just told you so.

[Maggie Freeling]

After we get home from our meeting with David Thorne, I called one of the only other people who has put as much time and effort into this as we did, Dwayne Pullman, the award winning investigative TV journalist. If you remember, I spoke to Duane at the beginning of the season and he warned me this case would consume me. And it did. Yeah. So, you know, we've, you know, been doing this for about a year now and have come to some really interesting findings that I just wanted to let you know about and just see if you had any insight on anything. I wanted to see if he could help process it all or let us know if we were totally off base.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Well, you, you know, you spent a.

[Maggie Freeling]

Very, very good amount of time on it and had some, you know, really thoughts last time, so.

[Investigator/Host]

It's been the bane of my existence, trust me.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, well, I, I've had a full emotional meltdown over it. So I guess, you know, we talked to everybody we could. All the key. I started telling Dwayne about everyone we spoke to, plenty of whom didn't make it into the podcast. We also put up three billboards directing people with information to an anonymous tip line. And we tracked down every lead that came from that. I told him about Chris Campbell, that we were always told he's a snitch and an informant, but we didn't find that. We also talked about Rose and that's what Rose said, too. Rose sent a text that said, I'm not talking to you, but I stand by what I said.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

And that's just interesting.

[Maggie Freeling]

I mean, so this sounds.

[Investigator/Host]

Yeah, yeah, I, I know what it's starting to sound like.

[Maggie Freeling]

The guys spoke to the Enochs who said they stood by everything they said at trial. In fact, they told the guys they're scared of Joe getting out because they're convinced he's a murderer. These are the people who took him in and cared for him. I told Dwayne how once we were on the ground in alliance, we realized that it's nearly impossible for the tiny alliance police force where a lead investigator had only worked one homicide case ever could have somehow mastermind a multi town cover up and convinced all all these people who didn't know each other to lie. Sure maybe people in alliance were afraid of the police department, but all these other people from different towns who didn't know each other to all be coerced to lie against two kids for what? Duane agreed. It's not very Occam's Razor Every Lenovo.

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[Maggie Freeling]

And then I brought up Sam Peg, who was really the turning point for the guys. She sticks by it too. And she's like, I don't think Joe did it. I love him. I don't think he did this. But he did tell me this. She still said that Joe told her before the murder, David wanted him to kill Yvonne. And after the murder that Joe said he did it.

[Investigator/Host]

Yeah, too contemporaneous then and continuing. That's interesting. That's pretty important.

[Maggie Freeling]

I mean, and after that we were like, all right, it seems pretty clear Joe was involved. Whether he blacked out and didn't remember be his involvement and has made up stories. Right. It's just like he. It's very unlikely that Joe was not involved at this point. So if we believe Joe was involved, then we have to look at did he do it on his own or did someone else? In the Enox testimony, they say when Joe came to live with them on March 27, he only had 50 cents to his name. Karen Enoch testified to buying Joe $5 cigarettes because he couldn't afford anything. The night of the murder, March 31, when he got dropped at the mall, Joe told the Enochs he was going to clean out David's grandpa's garage. David told me that never happened. There was no garage clean out. Plus, we know that David was at shoot fighting and mostly accounted for that night and none of it involved or left time for garage cleaning. But in the days after the murder, the Enochs testify that Joe was waiting around for David to give him money for a garage cleaning, which according to David, never happened. But all three Enochs say in the days after the murder. Has David come by with my money? Has David come by with my money? The Enochs in their statement say he had 50 cents before the murder. Like he had no money. They were buying him cigarettes. So somehow he comes up with this money, which points to someone paid him for something.

[Investigator/Host]

Sure. And I, I remember that was absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that all makes sense.

[Maggie Freeling]

A few days later, on April 5, the Enoch said that David stopped by their house. He and Joe talked in the car. And after that conversation, the Enoch said Joe was ready to go shopping. He asked their daughter, Summer Enoch to take him. The next day, Summer took Joe shopping. We went to Kmart, Winnie Kent. And he bought a pair of roller blades and a pair of work boots because he was going to start working with my cousin Robin. We went to school and that's where he bought socks and he bought a.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Pair of Nike shoes. And that's all he bought there.

[Maggie Freeling]

And he wanted to hurry up and change into his new tennis shoes. And he took his old tennis shoes off, the Nike pair that he had on and he put them in the back and he changed and put a.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

New pair of socks on.

[Maggie Freeling]

And he said he wanted to hurry.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Up and throw them shoes away.

[Maggie Freeling]

And I said why don't you just.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Throw them away when we get home?

[Maggie Freeling]

He said no, I want to get rid of them now.

[David Thorne]

How much do you think they stuff. How brought you?

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

I want to say about 180.

[Maggie Freeling]

Is it a coincidence that this kid who didn't even have enough money to buy cigarettes was talking for days about David coming by to pay him for something David said never happened? And then after he sees David suddenly spends around $200 shopping. I don't know. I could not say yes, David Thorne did this. I don't think you know, I would never want to ruin a man's chance at freedom if he didn't do this. I think there's enough if there's.

[Investigator/Host]

But what is the percentage? I mean it keeps getting as they say, it gets worser and worser.

[Maggie Freeling]

And it's true. David's own conversation with the guys made things worse. When he was given a chance to speak for himself without looking at timelines or having sue explain things, he couldn't do it. It's not up for debate whether he was with Joe the day of the murder. The Enochs are credible, yet David, he flew fully removed Joe from that day. He has built a counter narrative and every part of his day removes Joe. And so they finally circle back after letting him talk and whatever and go, but David, we know you're with Joe at 5:00, clock at the Enoch. Oh yeah, you know what? I. I guess I did run into him. I was buying a soda.

[Investigator/Host]

It's valuable information. A lot of this is freaking good on you, man. Here's what we're paying attention to and this Is where the PIs are really crucial here is you look for continuity and you look for clarity and you look for a lack of obfuscation and stuff like that. All the stuff that you know, we do intuitively. He's failing every measure, isn't he?

[Maggie Freeling]

I told Dwayne how David's explanation of when he knew Yvonne was selling sex kept shifting to me. He said he didn't know until after she died. But David told the guys he knew when he was taking her to those conventions what Yvonne was doing. I told Dwayne how even when David did acknowledge that he saw Joe the day of the murder. The story was different than what it had been in the past. I also told him about Angie's allegations and the incidents of violence David did not voluntarily divulge and that he minimized.

[Investigator/Host]

It's excellent work that you did.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's just excellent. It's just really shook me, you know, like. But.

[Investigator/Host]

But truth is what truth is, isn't it? I mean, that's the whole job here. If Chris Campbell stands by the story, if Sam stands by the story, do you have contemporaneous and continuing verification? And then we have a hidden domestic violence situation, which was violent. Holy. So this sounds. Yeah, yeah, I. I know what it's starting to sound like.

[Maggie Freeling]

You can hear the sadness in Dwayne's voice, too.

[Investigator/Host]

Maggie, let me be clear on it. You know, I. I've always tied my belief in this, that at some point, some way, the truth will reveal itself. And I've tried and tried, tried, and I'm pretty good at what I do and couldn't do this. So this has haunted me. I told you that. You know, I'm thankful that you're doing what you're doing, especially on the level. God, I mean, my loyalty is to truth. It's not to individuals. At the time, given all the input and given all of the. The points of reference, I concentrated on an effed up murder scene and an effed up trial. That was the right call.

[Maggie Freeling]

And I agree with Duane here. That's why we were all drawn to this case in the first place. This was a sloppy investigation conducted at a botched crime scene by inexperienced and frankly, problematic officers, followed by a trial that left room for a lot of reasonable doubt. And in a court of law, people cannot be convicted if there is reasonable doubt.

[Investigator/Host]

But, you know, we were inconclusive on whether he did it. There was enough doubt about it, obviously. But the point is, you know, we took some runs at it and there were big questions.

[Maggie Freeling]

For example, we still don't know who Yvonne's neighbor, George Hale, saw leaving her house the morning after the murder. And there's still the Brady violation. The prosecution withheld George Hale's statement from David's defense team, though the guys feel sure that the person George Hale saw was likely not the killer. As I've said before, her house was highly trafficked enough that a person could have been totally separate from the murder. Could have been a friend who was supposed to stop by in the morning for a coffee, stumbled on her dead body and fled. Or maybe it was an officer with a Scheduled sex appointment. Who preemptively cleaned up any evidence of having had relations with her. Not to cover up her murder, necessarily, but maybe just to save his job.

[Investigator/Host]

We raised the questions. They're getting answered, at least in part, thanks to your work. I mean, do I feel icky about it? I feel icky about all parts of this, yeah. And I always have, from the minute I started.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah.

[Investigator/Host]

Maggie, I think you know this. I'm not lecturing. I'm just supporting. The truth is the truth. Whether we are comfortable with it or not. That's what it is. And if things don't add up, they don't add up. And. Sorry, that's one of those indications. I mean, he, on all appearances, seems to be a nice kind of all American boy way, doesn't he, Alan, man, you know, older man. But, you know, it's not about appearances and it's not about charm. It's about the truth. But, you know, as I absorb it, all I really care about is the closure of it all.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Yeah.

[Investigator/Host]

And, I mean, you know, I can't imagine. Have you told sue yet? And what was her reaction?

[Maggie Freeling]

At this point, the answer was yes. Sue, David's wife and advocate, had been told, but not by me. After everything we found or hadn't found, John and Danny decided they could not take David's case. Remember, all of this was preliminary work to see if there was enough meat to David's claim of innocence to invest more time and money into the case. And after a year of research, hundreds of hours invested, five trips to Ohio, two separate prison interviews, tip lines, billboards, we found absolutely, absolutely nothing that could help prove David or Joe's innocence. And what we did find was more damning than helpful. The guys wrote David and Joe explaining their position and had a long phone call with sue explaining everything they told her. Anytime she wanted to call or ask questions, they'd be there. I told her the same thing, and I was for a while, up until this episode, when she stopped speaking to me. No one expects sue, who invested most of her life, including years of marriage, and who went nearly bankrupt trying to help her husband to accept our conclusion. It's clear she's frustrated with the outcome and looking for flaws in our investigation, saying we didn't do enough and didn't follow the new leads we found. But truthfully, the guys didn't see a reason to start going down that road when nothing pointed us away from Joe. That's why they did this investigation, to see if it was worth it. Still, I can't blame sue, this isn't just another investigation for her. It's her life. And all I can say is that I get it. And if she ever reaches a point where she wants to talk it over, I'll be here. To be clear, John and Danny are not labeling David Thorne a killer. And neither am I. Any case adopted by any Innocence Project has to have evidence. Something new, something missed, to help clear the person convicted. We can't find that in this case. So while the guys packed it up and moved on to other cases, I still couldn't.

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[Investigator/Host]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Investigator/Host]

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[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

A.

[David Thorne]

What's going on?

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

You can hear me?

[David Thorne]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Okay.

[David Thorne]

Awesome.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

How are you? I just do.

[Maggie Freeling]

I decided I still needed to give David one last chance to explain to me what happened. Why was the story he told me different than what he told the guys? Was he lying? Why did he omit Joe? Maybe he had a good explanation. Why did the guys leave there feeling the way they did?

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

So, you know, you could tell me your side of it. Like that's. I want to hear your side of everything. Yeah.

[David Thorne]

Because my only problem was whenever they start to ask me a Question, I start to answer it, but as I'm in mid answer, then something I say or a secondary question comes up. And then like the flow of the conversation was kind of convoluted, I guess, because then, you know, I'm just chasing my tail trying to answer new questions.

[Maggie Freeling]

David said John and Danny were confusing him, asking one question on top of another. But I've heard them do dozens of interviews. You've heard it, too. That's not their style. They're slow, methodical, and even play dumb, as Danny likes to say. Columbo, the person to get the answers. Badgering is just not their style. And on top of that, David had his attorney present. It was a legal visit. If the guys had been steamrolling him, certainly she would have stopped it. That's why she was there. I told David he needed to find a better explanation for why he couldn't answer questions because I wasn't buying it. So he tried explaining why he had multiple versions for how he wound up with Joe on the 31st after initially omitting him.

[David Thorne]

And I'll be honest, I blended two different events. But in, I guess, for lack of better way of saying it in my defense, the time that they're questioning me of is before anything ever happened. So to me, that's just another normal day in my life. I don't know how else to explain it. There was nothing exciting going on, nothing to be truly remembered. That's just plucking something out from months prior to and trying to put. Trying to put it together.

[Maggie Freeling]

But remember on April 2, the day after Yvonne's body was found, David was in the precinct with his attorney for questioning. That's just two days after he would have been with Joe. It's unlikely he just forgot about that, especially when he's being pressed for an alibi. Here's one of our first conversations.

[David Thorne]

By the time they started talking to me, I'm going in to try to help them figure this out. And all of a sudden they're telling me, you know, help us help you. And I'm. I don't need the help. You know what I mean? I'm. I'm here to help you. And then whenever I saw that they were actually looking at me, then that's whenever I. Well, actually, Grandfather contacted an attorney.

[Maggie Freeling]

David knew immediately he was a suspect. And usually that means you start scrambling for an alibi. What was I doing when this person was killed so they know it wasn't me? Imagine someone asked you today, what were you doing on some nondescript Day two months ago, of course you'd struggle, but the first time David was asked to recount his day was the day after Yvonne's body was found. And if he was racking his brain for an alibi, what he was doing that day, surely being with Joe and the cub would have popped into his head. Granted, David didn't answer those questions at the time his lawyer shut down the interview, but he knew he needed to get that information ready. He was suspect number one in a murder case who at some point might have to argue his innocence.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

I mean, their big hang up wasn't even the blending. It was that you were not going to say you were with Joe that day at the enoch. And they said they asked you multiple, multiple times what your day was like within their.

[David Thorne]

Because is what they kept asking me is saying that I was there beforehand. And I said I was never there beforehand because that was the first time that I was ever there because that's the first time that I ever met Karen.

[Maggie Freeling]

Because David went on to talk about something completely different. So I circled back.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

That's not the issue though. Their issue was they said, lay out your timeline of that day. That day, you know, you were in the enoch's driveway at 5 o' clock with the lion. And they said, they asked you multiple times and they finally said, well, you were with Joe that day and you, they did not like that you were not going to tell them you were with Joe that day.

[David Thorne]

See, I don't get that. Whenever they asked me what I was doing by the time I left, I told them, I said, I don't know exactly what time that I was there. Other than that I never said I wasn't there.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

But you did. You, David, that's what they're saying. You didn't tell them that you kept omitting that information.

[David Thorne]

I mean, why else was I there? Thought that's a, that's a given. How?

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Well, to them it looks like you're trying to actively not put yourself with the person who likely did this. They said they asked you multiple times what else happened. What else happened?

[Maggie Freeling]

He starts circling again.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

They said it said you didn't see Joe. And then you said, oh yeah, I saw Joe.

[David Thorne]

Because on that one they were asking me about the money from Summer.

[Maggie Freeling]

And.

[David Thorne]

I said I didn't give any money to him whenever I saw him. And they said, so you saw him? And I said, yeah, but I don't think at the time that they're saying, because that part I don't recall, you know, the specific day I said, but. And then he asked me going back to the thing. So it wasn't that I was denying being there because that's the only reason I was there, because I have a reason to be at the Enochs other than Joe, because I don't know the equal from Adam.

[Maggie Freeling]

Right.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Which. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that was just their hang up that you weren't going to tell them that you were there even though they knew you were there.

[David Thorne]

I didn't deny it. That's just it. I didn't. I still don't understand how.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

But that's how they felt. The whole conversation was, is you weren't giving information. They had to pull information out of you is how they felt.

[David Thorne]

Yeah, but I don't know what it is that you want me to say to you unless you ask me the question.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

The timeline of your day. They said, what is the timeline of your day? You know, you're at the Enox. Why didn't you put that in your timeline?

[David Thorne]

It was in my timeline.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

They said you did not tell them you were with Joe when you were laying out the timeline.

[Maggie Freeling]

And then finally, after all the circling.

[David Thorne]

I don't know that I have to tell him that I'm standing there with him because that's the only reason that I'm there.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

But you do, David. You have to tell them everything. They ask you to tell them everything and that's their problem is you didn't tell them anything they said. They left that conversation feeling like they told you more than you told them.

[David Thorne]

I mean, I, I don't know. I'm sorry that they feel that way, but I was just trying to answer the questions as they came and that was that.

[Maggie Freeling]

David said he didn't tell them he was in the Enox driveway with Joe just hours before Yvonne was killed as part of the timeline they asked him to lay out because he didn't know he had to. My hope of David fighting for his innocence was out the window.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Do you want to tell your side of the Angie story?

[Maggie Freeling]

David denied the allegations Angie made and gave an explanation for why, according to him, she made it all up. He said that she had started dating someone new, her now husband.

[David Thorne]

I don't know if he found out or when he found out, but they were already engaged and she paid for a hotel on Route 5 for us to go to whenever they were dating.

[Maggie Freeling]

He said that the reason Angie lied about it all is because her now husband told her to because he was pissed she cheated on him with David years earlier. According to David, this is why she made up multiple incidents of abuse. However, David did admit to something. He admitted to shooting out the car tires while Angie was in the car, like she claimed. While Angie said it was four tires. David said actually it was just one. But let me repeat. He admitted to shooting at a car that a woman, his girlfriend, was sitting in.

[David Thorne]

She was leaving in my car, and, I mean, after all, it was my car.

[Maggie Freeling]

And then I asked David why his story about the sex work changed.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

So I guess one of my questions is, you specifically told me, and I will send you the tape, that you had no idea why she was going to conventions. And then you told the guys. You told the guys that you knew why she was going, and you just had to put it out of your mind.

[David Thorne]

That was afterwards. Her and I went together twice when I was taking her for the conventions and everything. I had no idea when her and I got back together after Brandon, is when she came clean.

[Interviewer/Dwayne Pullman]

Okay. They said it was very clear that you said no.

[David Thorne]

I told them why you were dropping her off. Because. Because they asked me what it was like for me being with her on the second time around. I had to put that out of my mind because that was part of whether her and I were really going to get together and be together the second time around. That's where we aired out all of our dirty laundry with each other. But then whenever they asked me if I knew, yeah, I knew. Not whenever we were together the first time, but I knew the second time.

[Maggie Freeling]

So if this is confusing for you, it's confusing for me, too. I've never been able to get a straight answer on when he knew about the conversations and why he told the guys he knew exactly why he was dropping her off and why he told me he had no idea. David had written a letter to me at the end of August saying, had I known Yvonne was working conventions, then, yes, I would have tried to get custody. I'd have led with that, no questions asked. Who would subject their child to a revolving door of unknown people and access? And this is just incredible, because David did know. Now I'm thinking if the police got this right, maybe the motive wasn't about money or paying Yvonne child support. Maybe it was that David did not want his son to be in that kind of environment. Maybe David had a decent, I guess, noble motive. David's grandfather said David wanted custody in his police interview after April 7, but added that David couldn't prove Yvonne an unfit mother because the kids were always clean and the house was clean. So was David just desperate enough to get custody of Brandon, that he had Yvonne killed. The more we dug, the more we found out that David seemed to have minimized or omitted some pretty key details. That he was with Joe the day Yvonne died. That he'd been violent or alleged to be violent towards women in the past. That he knew about Yvonne's sex work. And at first, all of this may seem innocuous, but when you start piecing it together, it's not. Key stories fit together. The police were not sophisticated enough to mastermind a cover up. John, Danny and I discussed this.

[Investigator/Host]

Yeah, I mean, sometimes the bumbling idiots.

[Maggie Freeling]

Get it right by accident.

[Investigator/Host]

Well, a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Maggie Freeling]

It seems they formed their theory that David Thorne recruited someone to kill Yvonne and then looked for evidence to support that theory. We know the police were getting desperate from the psychic interview. Eventually, the case fell right in their lap. Starting with Rose. If her building manager hadn't called the police to say Rose knew something, the police may never have known about Joe. After that, the pieces all fell into place. Rose and Chris told the police about Joe telling them he was in town to murder a girl. Joe told the police about Sam Pegg, his best friend. Sam told the police that Joe was telling her months ahead of time about this. The Enochs confirmed Joe had no money until he saw David. David's alibi had holes in it. It's all right there, but yet all of us have been drawn to the case. Because the arrests came from a notoriously corrupt department with detectives that had less than stellar reputations, an abotched crime scene and Brady violations, and multiple people who could have done this, who were never looked into. And all of this corroborated by their own police records. The trial left what I would certainly consider reasonable doubt. There was no conclusive physical evidence linking Joe to the scene. Had the jurors heard from George Hale, the neighbor who saw an unknown man leave Yvonne's house after she was dead, perhaps the verdict would have been different. But they didn't. They didn't know about Hale because the prosecution didn't tell them. Despite being obligated to disclose information like that. If David's team had called an expert to refute the state's evidence, maybe we wouldn't be here. But none of that happened. And if there's one thing I can say for sure about this case, it's that David Thorne did not get a fair trial. And there are still lingering questions we may never get answers to. The crime scene certainly does not match Joe's statement. And neither does the knife which, remember, didn't have any blood on it. Why has Joe's story changed so many times? It's possible today he's confused by how many people have questioned him, asked him different versions, told him different stories. He doesn't know what's true anymore. But I do know that Joe believes he is the kind, caring person we heard so much about who was severely abused and just wanted someone to love him. And in this case, David, was that someone? I think Joe did go there with the folding knife. The only folding knife of that kind bought that year, on March 31, 1999, at the exact time Joe said he bought it. But after Chris Campbell made fun of him and said, who are you going to kill with that, he ditched it and used the kitchen knife. That's why there was no blood on the folding knife, and that's why a kitchen knife was missing, because Jo used it for me. That's a reasonable explanation for some of the lingering questions. Others may just never be answered. And so we have no new evidence pointing to innocence. And once someone is convicted by a jury, it's nearly impossible, impossible to get out without that new evidence. So there was nowhere left for us to go. After the investigation, the billboards expired and came down and the tip line was shut off. I have recovered since 2021. After losing trust in myself, I dusted off my shame, picked up my head, and kept going at what I know. I'm good at finding the truth and telling stories. I went on to win a Pulitzer for my reporting on mandatory minimums and juvenile lifers in the podcast Suave in 2022. Since then, I've learned about and poured my heart and soul into reporting on countless innocent people in prison and telling their stories. A conservative estimate is that there are more than 20,000 innocent people in prison, but experts say numbers are more likely in the hundreds of thousands. One of those people. I recently released a new investigation on, the first since Yvonne's called Graves county, where not only do I get it right, but much of my reporting and series was inspired by processing the aftermath of getting it wrong. I found a case where a journalist got it wrong like I did, yet he refuses to speak to me or acknowledge his mistakes or worse. I think it's crucial to talk about our fallibilities as journalists. Not only does it keep us honest, but it keeps us humble and human. And ultimately, at the end of all this, there was a woman, a mother, a friend, a daughter who was brutally murdered, and her family has had to live with that for going on three decades and a police department who did them no justice, allowing countless people to spend time and resources looking into what was very likely correct, but so poorly investigated it left too many questions for confidence. We went into this in part to get justice for Yvonne Lane and her family. They deserve to know the truth. And now I think the truth was there the whole time. I believed this was very likely a wrongful conviction. So did many others. Meaning we also believed that there was something, someone else out there getting away with Yvonne's murder. That's why I recruited investigators to take a look. But now we believe that broken clock was right and Yvonne's friends and family finally deserve to have their mother, daughter and loved one rest in peace. If the police had just done their job, if they hadn't left so much room for doubt, I believe Yvonne's family would not have had the worst moment of their lives brought up countless times for nearly three decades. And I want to repeat discussions about whether Yvonne was or was not a sex worker or a dancer or used drugs are important to the case. But beyond that, it doesn't matter. Her life was worth more than a pair of Nike shoes and some Rollerblades. Regardless of what choices she made in her life and her children, I hope at least that Yvonne's five boys can conclude what they want and remember her how they want. Tony, Vinnie, Brandon, Trenton and Preston deserve that. If you could correct everything that's been said about her, what do you want people to know?

[Investigator/Host]

I think that's the thing. Why I did for some other people, honestly, I don't. I really don't give a damn what they think about her. I know how I felt about her.

[David Thorne]

Why do I care what everyone else thinks?

[Investigator/Host]

Whether she slept with people, didn't sleep with people, whether she did drugs, didn't do drugs. Why do I care what anyone thinks but me?

[Maggie Freeling]

But what do you think about her?

[David Thorne]

I loved her.

[Investigator/Host]

She was crazy, but I loved her.

[Maggie Freeling]

Death and Deceit in the Lions is produced and reported by me, Maggie Freeling with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt. Aaron Case is our legal researcher. Our executive producer is Steve Fishman. Our engineer and production coordinator is Austin Smith. Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer.

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