Death & Deceit in Alliance | 8. The PIs

Summary

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The Burden | Death & Deceit in Alliance

Episode 8: The PIs
Host: Maggie Freleng (Orbit Media)
Date: December 19, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Maggie Freleng teams up with private investigators John Hardin and Danny Waxler of Proclaim Justice to scrutinize the David Thorne case. As they trace the original leads and re-interview critical witnesses—including Rose Moore and Chris Campbell—they seek to uncover new evidence or discrepancies in the testimony that led to Thorne's conviction for the murder of Yvonne Layne.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origin Story of Proclaim Justice and Jason Baldwin’s Involvement

Timestamps: 03:05–10:25

• Maggie introduces the background of Jason Baldwin, wrongfully convicted in the West Memphis Three case, whose story inspired John Hardin to found Proclaim Justice.
  • “I got kidnapped at the age of 16 by the state of Arkansas and, you know, spent 18 years in prison for something I didn't do.” — Jason Baldwin (03:42)
• John describes advocating for the West Memphis Three from afar, then partnering with Jason post-release to start investigating wrongful convictions.
  • “...the best things I've experienced in my life was...seeing you guys walk free, and I want to continue doing that for other innocent people in prison.” — John Hardin (09:06)
• Proclaim Justice is portrayed as deeply selective, working only on cases where they are highly confident in the defendant’s innocence.

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2. The David Thorne Case: First Impressions & Red Flags

Timestamps: 12:05–16:25

• John Hardin and Danny Waxler review David Thorne’s trial transcripts, immediately noting several oddities:
  • John is skeptical about the prosecution’s story that Joe Wilkes was paid just $300 to commit murder.
    • “Plausible, but fucking $300 to murder a woman in cold blood?” — John Hardin (12:34)
  • The investigators question how the knife and pants were found, their forensic value, and Joe Wilkes’ inconsistent statements.
    • “There were no. There was no blood on that knife. I think there was a partial print on the knife that didn't match anybody.” — John Hardin (15:42)
  • The central concern emerges: The prosecution’s main evidence is the word of someone viewed as unreliable, who could have been coerced.

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3. The Hunt for Rose Moore and Chris Campbell

Timestamps: 19:31–30:55

• The PIs seek out Rose Moore and Chris Campbell, pivotal witnesses whose statements placed Joe Wilkes at the center of the prosecution’s case.
• Rose’s story shifted between her initial police interview and her testimony at trial, raising suspicions.
  • “Rose initially told police Joe was in a white outfit... By trial she put him in black pants... She also initially told police Joe's knife was an 8 inch knife in a sheath. By trial, this changed to the folding knife Joe allegedly bought…” — Maggie Freleng (21:30)
• Sue (David’s wife) confronted Rose about a business card said to have Joe’s number. Rose reportedly admitted Sue wrote the number, not Joe.
  • “When Sue confronted her... she said he didn’t write this. Joe didn’t write this. You did. And in Sue’s mind at least, Rose acknowledged that she did write that.” — John Hardin (22:22)
• Rose refuses to meet the investigators:
  • “No, I'm not interested in talking. I gave my testimony in court many years ago. Nothing has changed.” — Rose Moore, via text (30:00)

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4. Interviewing Chris Campbell: Revealing Contradictions

Timestamps: 32:41–40:56

• After persistent effort, John and Danny interview Chris Campbell. Contrary to Joe's claim of animosity, Chris says he was Joe’s only friend.
  • “Me and him? I think I was his only friend. Really.” — Chris Campbell (33:28)
  • On allegations of racism: “Did you ever think of Joe as a racist?... Not at all.” — John Hardin & Chris Campbell (33:16–34:04)
• The investigators raise the possibility that Chris received a deal to testify; Chris denies this, insisting he only shared the truth.
  • “Did they ever, like, lean on you to say something?... Yeah, that’s what it was. But I said, the only thing I have is a true.” — Chris Campbell (36:26)
  • Chris affirms no attempt was made to get him to lie or “fill some holes” in his statement.
• Chris and Rose provided slightly disparate accounts:
  • Rose claimed Joe said a guy paid him to kill Yvonne.
  • Chris remembered Joe saying a girlfriend wanted the killing done.
  • “There's a big difference between some guy paid me off to... In your view, what Joe had said was that his girlfriend had sent him to do the job.” — John Hardin (37:08)
  • Chris added that Joe didn’t have a girlfriend—raising further doubts about the story’s coherence.

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5. Limitations, Confusion, and Lingering Suspicions

Timestamps: 40:35–41:38

• Chris openly expresses skepticism that Joe—who “loves kids”—would commit such a crime, especially around children.
  • “Joe loves kids. Joe wouldn't do that. Not in front of no kids anyway.” — Chris Campbell (40:50)
• Both core witnesses’ stories have evolved over time, making it difficult to discern what truly happened.
  • “Chris said Rose was coached, but he doesn't know for sure. And we don't know either... both he and Rose are sticking to their original stories. So that leaves us with Joe.” — Maggie Freleng (41:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The reason David Thorne is sitting in jail right now is someone that you acknowledge is a fucking liar. Yeah, yeah, yeah.” — John Hardin (15:42)
• On the hard truth of wrongful conviction work:
  • “In most innocence cases, even successful ones, rarely is there enough evidence to prove someone else did the crime. It’s violations of due process... that lead to overturning a conviction most times.” — Maggie Freleng (16:25)
• “Investigative work takes a lot of patience, a lot of waiting. You get hopeful, and then your hopes are dashed.” — Maggie Freleng (30:28)
• Human touch:
  • “John starts every morning with Cher.” — Maggie Freleng (19:52)
  • "Think it’s haunted. I think there’s bones up there." — John Hardin (31:10)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:05–10:25 — Proclaim Justice origins, West Memphis Three context
• 12:05–16:25 — Initial review of David Thorne's case, first doubts
• 19:31–22:54 — Rose Moore’s story and its inconsistencies
• 23:20–30:13 — Attempts to contact Rose Moore; waiting, persistence, and her refusal
• 32:41–41:38 — Chris Campbell interview; clarifying contradictions, discussing motives, scrutinizing the sequence of events

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Flow & Tone

The episode is methodical yet deeply human: Maggie and the PIs doggedly hunt for the truth, with dialogue tinged by frustration, dry humor, and flashes of empathy. Maggie's narration is honest about the disappointments and difficulties of re-investigating an old case, while John and Danny’s fieldwork is neighborly and low-pressure by design—hoping candor will lead to fresh revelations.

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Conclusion

This episode peels back new layers of the Yvonne Layne case by returning to the original witnesses whose testimonies shaped the conviction of David Thorne. The interviews reveal inconsistencies, possible police coaching, and genuine doubts about everyone’s version of events. While the core witnesses stick to their old stories, the PIs' ground work suggests that “the truth” is still perilously out of reach—and underscores how fragile a conviction can be when it hinges not on physical evidence, but on the words of unreliable narrators.

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End of summary.

Transcript

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[John Hardin]

You never asked about that or wondered about it? She was possibly seeing a police officer who lives in Sebring. He was a hotel mass anger and rage. Very few people scare me. He scared me. And supposedly she told Linda McLaughlin's mother.

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[John Hardin]

You know, in terms of the police force, my God, I had eight or nine names of officers who were potential sexual partners. This drug guy was putting her up to it. So if he gets caught, he can blackmail the cops. Given what we know about Yvonne is I'm pretty sure people didn't want a lot of that stuff flying out.

[Maggie Freeling]

This is death and deceit and alliance a real time investigation into whether David Thorne killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling. In 1994, Jason Baldwin, along with two friends, Damien Echols and Jesse Misskelley were convicted of murdering three little boys in West Memphis, Arkansas after they were convicted.

[John Hardin]

Of murdering three boy scouts, hog tied and left in a ditch.

[Maggie Freeling]

But Jesse, Jason and Damien all proclaimed their innocence.

[John Hardin]

I got kidnapped at the age of 16 by the state of Arkansas and you know, spent 18 years in prison for something I didn't do.

[Maggie Freeling]

And decades later that would lead to why I'm sitting here, you know, to start I wanted to know how you founded proclaim justice, what it is, how you both met.

[John Hardin]

Give me the origin story. Want me to take it or you tag team this, you know, like real life. Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

At first John heard about Jason, Damien and Jesse back when the crime happened.

[John Hardin]

So when you're from Arkansas, which I am, and I'm about their age, I'm a little bit older than Jason, a couple years older. And of course you hear about this case and it's all over the state.

[Maggie Freeling]

Jason was a kid then doing life for a crime he says he did not commit.

[John Hardin]

And I kind of started wondering about it and that just kind of took me down this rabbit hole of these guys are innocent and so I advocated for them from afar.

[Maggie Freeling]

Just through this is Jason. He and his co defendants Damian and Jesse had been featured in a 1996 documentary on HBO called Paradise Lost which raised doubts about their convictions. This is the one that Metallica did the soundtrack for and put the West Memphis three case on the map. People all over the country were demanding justice for the trio.

[John Hardin]

Arkansas officials would would just say, you know, hey, those people who are saying that about the case are from New York, are from California or from New Zealand, you know, foreigners, they're outsiders, they don't know this case like we do. And so they kept putting that lie out there to the Arkansas. And so John Hardin, who was an Arkansas and he was like, no, I've looked at this case, I believe that these kids are innocent and from then.

[Maggie Freeling]

John was on the case.

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[John Hardin]

Today, the West Memphis three walked free.

[Maggie Freeling]

An Alford plea allowed them to profess their innocence while technically pleading guilty. So despite being free, the three are still officially convicted murderers, which among other Things like being a felon forever means they couldn't sue the state for a wrongful conviction. Jason didn't receive a multi million dollar settlement as other wrongfully convicted have. But Jason had something else when he was in prison. Musicians like Metallica and Eddie Vedder from Pearl Jam supported his cause. And when Jason got out, Eddie Vedder.

[John Hardin]

Whisked me away to live up in. In his castle in. In Seattle. And John.

[Maggie Freeling]

Shortly after arriving in Seattle, John went up to visit.

[John Hardin]

Johnny was like, hey, the best things I've experienced in my life was, you know, marrying my wife, seeing my son born and, and seeing you guys walk free, go home, you know, and I want to continue doing that for other innocent people in prison, you know, and I would like to take that journey with you. And I was like, hey, you know, I promised the guys I left behind I wouldn't forget them. And this is a way for me to keep that promise.

[Maggie Freeling]

So they started Proclaim Justice, a nonprofit dedicated to righting wrongful convictions. They got to work in 2013. They started with the people they knew from prison and focused on death row prisoners. Jason's co defendant Damien, had been on death row.

[John Hardin]

They said, damien, you were on death row in Arkansas for a crime you didn't commit. Were you the only innocent person on death row? And he said, no, Tim is innocent. Tim Howard. And so John was like, we need to free Tim. And I'm like, yes, we need to free Tim.

[Maggie Freeling]

And they did. On December 14, 2017, after 20 years in prison and 15 on death row, Proclaim justice freed. Tim Howard, released Last Wednesday after 20 years behind bars, most of that time on death row, proclaimed justice helped free Tim Howard. And short of a year later, they also secured the freedom of Daniel Villegas from El Paso, Texas.

[John Hardin]

The jury find the defendant, Daniel Villegas not guilty of.

[Maggie Freeling]

I wanted to know what it requires for them to take a case.

[John Hardin]

No, we're very selective in our cases. We want to take everybody's case. It's not humanly possible. And so we have to, you know, we have very limited resources, and we have to make sure those resources are successful.

[Maggie Freeling]

The team itself is pretty small in terms of investigators. It's John and Danny Waxler, a lifelong private investigator and a friend of John's from high school. John told me that they have to be beyond certain that the person they're working for is innocent before they officially take a case. In fact, there had been a few cases they told me about that they started working on feeling good. And then during their investigation, they discovered the Priority person's guilt. Another key factor in deciding whether to take a case is that they have to believe the defendant. They're going to spend a lot of time working for them, often for free. So credibility is key and they take their time to make sure they have it right.

[John Hardin]

We're, we're working on several cases all the time. And the way our, our case work is we may work on a case for a few years before we even officially take a case.

[Maggie Freeling]

And I thought they were the perfect people to evaluate a case like David's. And I was super excited when they agreed to look at the files, even if it didn't mean they were as of yet committed to a full investigation. It was a start. This is John Hardin.

[John Hardin]

So I started like I usually do, just, you know, started really with a trial transcripts after knowing the whole story. And I'm not too far along in those, but already a bunch of questions.

[Maggie Freeling]

And if you remember from episode one, John sent me a recording of him and Danny looking at the files and talking about their initial reactions just from reading the trial transcripts. Anyway, they started with the key evidence.

[John Hardin]

You know, right off the bat, a couple of things that raised my eyebrows are the knife in the pants. How did Joe lead them to them? What were the circumstances? Was it confirmed to be the murder weapon with any kind of forensic or biological testing or anything like that? And if it was the murder weapon and Joe did lead them there, then that's a big deal. So just kind of on his face you're sitting there thinking, okay, plausible, but fucking $300 to murder a woman in cold blood?

[Maggie Freeling]

They question how much sense this makes.

[John Hardin]

I'm under the strong impression that Joseph was the fourth friend of David Thorne that the cops had gone to.

[Maggie Freeling]

If you remember, I spoke with one of those friends, Josh McComb, who said the police tried to get him and a few of David's other friends to confess before they found job. Remember, David had a rock solid alibi. He couldn't have done the murder. So the search was on for an accomplice.

[John Hardin]

There's a full blown declaration that they went after three friends. I mean it's, it's, it's in record that there were three other associates or friends of David's that they approached first. Yeah. And tried to coerce or push them into testifying against David. So do you think that they like very quickly zeroed in on David and then started. Yes. Okay. The other thing off the bat was, and I'll look forward to this Rose Moore girl, it sounds like, that's how they broke the case, according to them, with even knowing Joe was involved.

[Maggie Freeling]

Remember, Rose and her boyfriend Chris were the first people to bring the cops attention to Joe. Rose told the police they were at the mall and they bumped into Joe where he showed them the knife.

[John Hardin]

And he says that he was over an alliance to kill a woman. And so that's what led them to Joe, according to the state. So she's kind of a big deal. How did you. I thought about that. You know, what if. Let's just say Job did this. Yeah. Because there are things that make you say, well, the pants, the knife, and familiarity. Why is he staying at a freaking hotel in town that night?

[Maggie Freeling]

And with Joe, who was basically penniless in the hotel, just going to a party, like he later said, after he recanted? Or was he actually there to kill Yvonne like the state claims?

[John Hardin]

The guys waffled on his statements. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you. If we acknowledge that he's been dishonest and he is the entire reason that David Thorne is sitting in jail right now.

[Maggie Freeling]

Well, and don't forget this crucial and confusing detail.

[John Hardin]

But there was no. There were no. There was no blood on that knife. I think there was a partial print on the knife that didn't match anybody. Didn't match David, didn't match Joe. The reason David Thorne is sitting in jail right now is someone that you acknowledge is a fucking liar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's nothing else. I forgot we're recording. Excuse my language. It doesn't matter, man. This is just us talking how we talk. Joe's got some explaining to do. I mean, it's not cut and dry that he's lying. You know what I mean? There's some real questions that I'm gonna have to get some satisfactory answers to.

[Maggie Freeling]

After looking at the files, the guys decided there was enough for them to want to do boots on the ground work in Ohio to try and figure out if David is telling the truth about his innocence. And if so, who did kill Yvonne Lane. Now, it's worth noting that this is the hardest thing. Investigators can find the killer. And in most innocence cases, even successful ones, rarely is there enough evidence to prove someone else did the crime. It's violations of due process like withholding evidence or cops lying that lead to overturning a conviction most times. But with David's case, remember, it was dead in the water. He appealed and lost. They had to have new evidence or the real killer.

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[John Hardin]

The snow's pretty on the ground up here.

[Maggie Freeling]

We set out to find Rose and Chris. It's just me, Johnny and Danny. Jason usually stays back and works from the office in Austin.

[John Hardin]

22 miles. I hope it's the way of Starbucks.

[Maggie Freeling]

John starts every morning with Cher. Anyway, at trial, Joe's testimony was the main evidence against David. It was his statement that David hired him to kill Yvonne that convicted David. The evidence that led the police to Joe was Rose Moore and Chris Campbell. And just as a reminder, a week before Joe's arrest, the police received a tip. The tip came from a woman who worked at an apartment complex in alliance stating that one of her tenants had information in the Yvonne Lane murder. A resident at the apartment had said that her daughter Rose Moore had the information. The police spoke with Rose on July 12, two days before Joe was picked up. Over three months after the murder, 23 year old Rose told officers that she and her boyfriend Chris Campbell were in the food court at the Carnation Mall when they bumped into Joe Wilkes. Chris knew Joe from high school and they started talking. That's when 18 year old Joe allegedly told them he was an alliance to do a job. He was hired to kill a woman. Here's John, the PI for me.

[John Hardin]

She's the. She's the first person on record that mentions Joe. That's the significance of her to me. She's not.

[Maggie Freeling]

But there are discrepancies in Rose's account, key ones. And Rose's testimony will evolve. Rose initially told police Joe was in a white outfit, white pants with some dark. But by trial she put him in black pants, the ones that were allegedly found in the woods. She also initially told police Joe's knife was an 8 inch knife in a sheath. By trial, this changed to the folding knife Joe allegedly bought and which was found in the sewer drain near Yvonne's house. And Rose also said that Joe allegedly wrote his phone number on a business card for Chris to contact him in the future. Now remember, this was presented at trial to prove that Joe was there with Rose and Chris. But Sue, David's wife, actually met with Rose and confronted her about the encounter and this card.

[John Hardin]

But if sue is credible, and I have no reason to doubt that the whole I wrote his name and number down. And according to sue, when sue confronted her with a copy of that business card and phone number was pager number, she said he didn't write this. Joe didn't write this. You did. And in Sue's mind at least Rose acknowledged that she did write that.

[Maggie Freeling]

So did sue misunderstand or did Rose make up that Joe wrote it? Was she lying for the prosecution about the encounter with Joe? If her story changed, why? And I'll be honest, the handwriting does not look like Joe's a shaky, twitchy, semi illiterate kid. We wanted to get to the bottom of it.

[John Hardin]

Morning. How are you? It's early. We were looking for Rose Moore. Does she live here? Okay. We are. We're investigators. We work for an Innocence Project, and we're. She was involved in the case 20 years ago as a witness. Something about it, but. Yeah, my two boys in there at the dentist. They're at the dentist. Yeah. Will she be back this morning? Okay, I can text her, let you know what time. Yeah, Would you mind? I can give you her phone number if you want to talk. Yeah, let's do that. You think she'd mind talking to us? She'll probably. She might have a phone off if she's in the dentist office. Are you her husband? Yeah. Yeah, we just. I mean, we know that she was sort of just pushed into the case, you know, through no fault of her own. But we're just trying to piece it all together. Yeah. All right, well, we'll text her and then see when she's available today and visit with her for a little bit. There's no school today, so we're here. Okay. Okay. Very good.

[Maggie Freeling]

I like John's approach. Low key, conversational, neighborly, no pressure. Still, who knows if it works? After John texted the number, we waited.

[John Hardin]

We'll stick around alliance for a little bit longer to see if Rose texts back. So I don't want to. Once we head out of alliance, we may be gone the rest of the day. Right.

[Maggie Freeling]

We had a ton of other people to track down, but didn't want to miss Rose.

[John Hardin]

We're just going to kill a little bit of time to give Rose some time to reply.

[Maggie Freeling]

I feel like we should maybe wait outside her house. Yeah. Just to see what she pulls in.

[John Hardin]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we gotta wait somewhere. So I was just thinking that it's 8:30. Most dentist offices don't open till 8. If she had two kids there. Yeah, I figured she'll be there a little bit, maybe at least an hour before she's available. Could take a run at Chris Campbell and come back over here. He's in Canton. Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

So we drove to Canton, about a half hour away. Now, Chris was Rose's boyfriend at the time. Chris's testimony was relatively consistent with his statement to the police, particularly that it took him a minute to recognize Joe because he was in all new clothes, which for Joe, a kid who was usually houseless, was unusual. But his statement contradicted Rose in at least one important detail. Chris also said that Joe told him he was in town to do a job. To kill a girl. Remember, Rose said that Joe said some guy paid him to do it, but Chris said that Joe told them he was killing her for his as in Joe's girlfriend? Because his girlfriend didn't like the girl. It's unclear who his girlfriend was at the time. We knocked on a few doors looking for Chris and we had no luck. Seems like he moves around a lot. And then we finally found someone.

[John Hardin]

Hello. Hi, good morning. We're looking for Chris Campbell. Does he live here? No, he don't live here anymore. Okay, you don't have any. Okay, you don't. Do you know him? Like, know where he would live currently? No, he left me and went with some other girl and. Oh, so you dated him. Okay, yeah, he did live here, but they don't there anymore.

[Maggie Freeling]

Okay, now I want to explain something before we go any further. You'll notice in all of the interviews, it's not me conducting them as I normally would. It's Danny and John, the two private investigators. And there's a reason for this. Because the sole purpose of this investigation and this podcast is to find out if David is telling the truth. And if so, get David back in court, which would give him a shot at overturning his conviction. And we could potentially find who really killed Yvonne. But we have to take precautions. If I'm part of the interviews, that could be seen as witness tampering. I'm not a licensed private investigator like John and Danny, so although it's incredibly unusual and uncomfortable for me, I don't want to mess anything up. So I stayed back and let them handle the interviews.

[John Hardin]

How long. How long has he been gone? It's been about a month, two weeks or so. Okay, do you know who she is or where we might could find him? What's he driving these days? He don't drive.

[Maggie Freeling]

Chris would be harder to find than we thought. We missed him at his house by two weeks. He's transient, hopping from girlfriend to girlfriend, kind of like Joe was. And what Joe says about Chris brings up the possibility that Chris could have been lying.

[John Hardin]

Me and Chris ain't being cool. I because of a few reasons. Me and him almost got into a fight when I was in Maplewood jgf. And on top of that, I. He knew that I was pretty much racist and he hated me very big for that.

[Maggie Freeling]

This is Joe talking to sue in their first phone call. Joe is white and Chris is black. And Joe was, by his own account, racist. So the two didn't get along. According to Joe, Joe also got expelled because of a fight with Chris. So maybe that meant there was motivation for Chris to lie. Kind of like revenge. And if there was motive for Chris, there could have Been motive for Rose, who was his girlfriend at the time. Rose told police Chris told her not to say anything, and she told police in her tape statement that she's afraid of Chris.

[John Hardin]

Why you haven't come forward until now?

[Maggie Freeling]

Because I've been scared for my life. Because Chris Campbell told me if I.

[John Hardin]

Said anything that he would come after me. And that's why I've been scared, because I don't want to die.

[Maggie Freeling]

I have two small children to raise. Police records say the couple ultimately broke up because of domestic violence problems. So maybe Rose was scared of him. Maybe scared enough to say whatever he wanted her to. People do things when they're scared, like sometimes lie. We wondered, was it possible she lied to protect Chris in some way? We hoped that since so much time had passed, she'd be willing to open up. Whatever Rose will say, sue is convinced Chris would tell us the truth. 22 years later, sue insists that Chris told her he made up the conversation with Joe, although she says he wouldn't sign an affidavit. As we set out to find another address for Chris, John got a text back from Rose. John asked if we could come by after the dentist. And she responded, quote, no, I'm not interested in talking. I gave my testimony in court many years ago. Nothing has changed.

[John Hardin]

How can we take another. I told. I mean, I'll tell her that. I completely understand. We just, you know, let's just play it off. Maybe play it off that there's some new. Some new information.

[Maggie Freeling]

John texted back and never received a reply. But we're nothing if not persistent. Investigative work takes a lot of patience, a lot of waiting. You get hopeful, and then your hopes are dashed. And then every now and then, you get lucky. Something comes together, something works out.

[John Hardin]

I'm ready, Freddy. Let's go see what old Chris Campbell's up to.

[Maggie Freeling]

We knocked on a few other doors, found an ex wife, and got a new address. We left to go wait for Chris to get off work.

[John Hardin]

I bet you they got a spooky attic. Think it's haunted. I think there's bones up there.

[Maggie Freeling]

About 20 minutes of waiting, we spotted someone, and they matched Chris's description. Walking towards the address we had for him.

[John Hardin]

Just walked this ass all the way from Harrison. That's funny. I just looked up out of the corner of my eye, and there's a dude walking.

[Maggie Freeling]

Well, we really almost just missed that. He must have been walking near us for a while.

[John Hardin]

You have eyes on him? I have eyes. If he crosses the road, I think he's crossing well, he may just be walking around that truck. I think he's crossing. He's right by their house right now.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yep, there he is. He's crossing. That's him.

[John Hardin]

Can you see?

[Maggie Freeling]

Yes.

[John Hardin]

See those? That's him. Maybe. Probably. I'm gonna go with probably right now. I'm about to go with likely now. I'm going definitely.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's definitely him. The man we were watching walked into Chris's house.

[John Hardin]

Well, I think we let him settle. Yeah, That's a hot ass walk. Fuck, yeah, man.

[Maggie Freeling]

After about another 20 minutes, Danny and John decided to go knob.

[John Hardin]

Hi, Chris. How you doing? You Chris? Yeah. Chris, I'm Danny Waxler. This is John Harden. Hi, how you doing? I was hoping I could have a minute to talk to you. All right. Who are you guys? So we work for an Innocence Project.

[Maggie Freeling]

They do their normal spiel.

[John Hardin]

What has happened is there's been a resurgence of attention on the case, but we feel like we've got a new path. We feel like both of these guys are innocent, but part of that is going and figuring out who really was responsible. Right.

[Maggie Freeling]

At this point, I was still waiting in the car, watching from the road. I had no idea if Chris was going to flip out at them or slam the door in their faces, but he did neither of those things. He actually invited them in.

[John Hardin]

You knew Joe, and what was your relationship with Joe like? Me and him? I think I was his only friend. Really? Yeah. What, in school or in the neighborhood or school together? We were in masonry together. What was he like? We haven't met him. We've heard that he's at a lower level, mentally, cognitively, so. But we don't know that. We haven't spoken to him. So. Did you ever think of Joe as a racist? What? No. Not at all. Okay. Okay. Because he's. We. That's why we feel like he's. He would be let off a cliff if someone he looked up to told him to jump off the cliff. So when one of his narratives was you and him hated each other because he was. He's verbatim. This is what he said. I was pretty much a racist and he knew it. Racist. You either are or you're not. Right? We're like, pretty much. That's not something you're on the fence on, right? Yeah. And now that we know you were his only freaking friend at the time, it didn't matter if you were purple. He needed a friend. Right. Wow, this is so crazy.

[Maggie Freeling]

So that motive we'd conjured for Chris to lie was blown Right out of the water. But maybe Chris was an informant and was given a deal to lie. There were some things that made us think this. For one, Chris was arrested July 16 for drug possession just two days after Joe was brought in for questioning. Chris was held until after trial and then released for time served.

[John Hardin]

So did you think it was weird that right after. I think it was the 14th of July, him and David Thorne, and then two days later, they arrest you in the park for putting your hand in your pocket? Do you remember that? Wasn't that odd? It was odd to us because all we see are the documents. And then they tried to keep you in jail. And then when the trial is over and they're convicted, they give you time served and you're done. What do you think that was about? I think they wanted to take Joe down. And I knew Joe, you know what I mean, so. And from their knowledge, I was the last one to talk to Joe before the murder happened. You know what I mean? And I do remember that detective, too. I can't remember his name, but he kept saying, you owe me a favor. You owe me a favor.

[Maggie Freeling]

Like this was odd. And sitting in the car listening to everything, I couldn't help but think, Chris had to have gotten a deal. And if that was the case, the prosecution was required to disclose that, and they didn't. So that would be huge for David's case.

[John Hardin]

Did they ever, like, lean on you to say something like, they need your help and. And. And they'll do something for you if you do something for them? Yeah, that's what it was. But I said, the only thing I have is a true. So the police never leaned on you to tell them something that wasn't true? Did they ask you to do that? Did they ask you to fill some holes for them with things that you didn't think were right? No.

[Maggie Freeling]

So they put to bed as best they could that Chris got a deal. We have no reason to doubt his original statement. Though they did want to ask why Chris and Rose's statements didn't exactly match up.

[John Hardin]

Rose said some guy had hired Joe to kill. But you had said in your initial thing that Joe told you his girlfriend, his own girlfriend, had sent him to do the job. That was a big variance, right? There's a big difference between some guy paid me off to. In your view, what Joe had said was that his girlfriend had sent him to do the job. His own girlfriend? Yeah. Does that ring a bell or. I remember that conversation. Yeah. So he was saying that maybe the dude's Girlfriend hired him. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he didn't have a girlfriend. It was a huge girlfriend.

[Maggie Freeling]

Chris didn't waver. He said the same thing. He told police in his original statements that Joe said a girlfriend put him up to the murder. It was never clear to Chris whose girlfriend, but he did know that Joe didn't have a girlfriend. Chris also told Danny and John that what Joe told him at the mall just didn't make sense.

[John Hardin]

I can't physically say that he did it. I can tell you what I know. I can tell you what he told me, but I can also tell you what I feel. I don't believe that he walked from exactly mall on State street all the way down to where in a white jogging suit? All the way down like 4.2 miles in a well lit street. Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

Remember, it's a highway and Joe would likely be covered in blood.

[John Hardin]

And then the night he showed me, and then the night that they showed me, it didn't match up.

[Maggie Freeling]

Remember, Rose originally said it was an 8 inch knife in a sheath. And by the time of trial, the police were showing Rose and Chris a folding pocket knife.

[John Hardin]

Well, I remember the detective took me to Kmart too at the mall and was like, well, show me the knife. And I showed him close to the knife. It was a folding knife. Yeah. And as a matter of fact, I said, joe, who you going to kill with that?

[Maggie Freeling]

Chris said the knife was a folding knife, like his original statement. So if Chris said he told the truth, could that maybe mean he mixed up his days?

[John Hardin]

How sure are you that it was that same day, the day before she was actually killed? That night we talked to him. And then that very next morning, Rose heard about it and immediately said, we know who did it. I'm calling the cops. So it was the next day. Yeah, that. Right. And I was like, no, you know what I mean?

[Sponsor/Ad Narrator]

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[John Hardin]

Business, right? I mean, yeah. But yeah, that's how all this came about.

[Maggie Freeling]

Because she called, they asked him to walk through the night.

[John Hardin]

Okay. As soon as we walked in there, we. I seen him in the food court. And what did he come up to you? Oh, okay. And I asked him what he was doing here and that's when he said he had a job to do, blah, blah. Did he say what the job to do was? Yeah. Oh, yeah. We talked about everything. He was going to leave. At first I didn't believe him. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. That's not something your buddy typically comes out of his mouth. Right.

[Maggie Freeling]

Everything Chris said to us matched his original story. And even though Chris was adamant Joe told him he was there to kill a girl. And even though a girl did in fact get murdered that night, Chris said he still doesn't believe Joe is the killer.

[John Hardin]

Joe loves kids. Yeah. Joe wouldn't do that. Not in front of no kids anyway.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah.

[John Hardin]

And it's like. Doesn't add up. It doesn't make you think so by the cops, you think? Yeah. Unless she was already scared. Begin with. Yeah, she was already scared. Yeah. And we broke up after that. After she called the cops and like we don't even know for sure. You really did it. Yeah, know. I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Like I have no clue. Yeah, I have no clue. Cuz After. After she called the cops or whatever. C call the cops. I haven't talked to her since then either. Yeah. Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

Chris said Rose was coached, but he doesn't know for sure. And we don't know either. We don't know why some of the details of their stories differ, why the knives are different and why Chris said that the killing was to be done for a girlfriend, but Rose didn't. Now it occurred to me that Chris could be inclined to stick with his original story just to avoid any kind of perjury charge. I mean, the guy is well versed with the law considering all his run ins, and he's certainly not stupid. But both he and Rose are sticking to their original stories. So that leaves us with Jo. But there were other good suspects to look at as well. Something always bothered me about Vinnie being out of his crib and dressed. Preston said only someone he trusted could dress him. Maybe someone like the psychic's main person of interest. Coming up on death and deceit in Alliance.

[John Hardin]

Somebody was in that house. Then it was a. It sounded to me like a woman's voice. And I really don't want to say anything. Why is that? Because I'm tired of being dragged in the middle of it. You're not in the middle of it. Oh, I have been for the last 22 years. How did y' all even find me here? So you remember seeing him? My boyfriend. My ex husband now, but my boyfriend at the time. We saw him there that night. If Joe's giving her permission, so to speak, to talk with us, you would think Joe's not worried about what she's going to tell us.

[Maggie Freeling]

I truly, honestly believe he didn't do it. I know David wanted him to. And I was under the impression that.

[John Hardin]

Dave was going to pay him to.

[Maggie Freeling]

Death. And Deceit in Alliance is produced and reported by me, Maggie Freeling with editorial consulting from Amber Hunt. Aaron Case is our legal researcher. Our Executive producer is Steve Fishman. Our engineer and Production coordinator is Austin Smith. Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer.

[Sponsor/Ad Narrator]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[John Hardin]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[John Hardin]

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[John Hardin]

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[John Hardin]

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[John Hardin]

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[John Hardin]

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