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- [00:00]
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- [01:02]
Joe Loya
This.
- [01:02]
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- [02:02]
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- [03:02]
Steve Fishman
Hi there, it's Steve Fishman. And this may be a good time to mention that you can listen to all episodes of get the Money and Run ad free by subscribing to True Crime Clubhouse on Apple. Just $2.99 a month. So today we've got a treat. We've got Joe Loya with us to answer your questions and mine. And thanks to those of you who sent questions in. Just to add some sense of Joe these days, after nearly a decade in prison, Joe went on to write a book about his life. It's called the man who Outgrew His Prison Cell. And the New Yorker called it thrilling. Joe also turned himself into a consultant for Hollywood, writing scripts and consulting on bank robbery movies like Baby Driver and the upcoming Baby Driver two. All right, let's jump into it.
- [04:05]
Joe Loya
You know, I'm what it's, I'm fortunate, you know, I did a lot of, saw a lot of things. I was raised a preacher's son, so that gave me a whole sense of, like, how to tell stories with some moral depth. And then I was a storyteller. So, like, I mean, since I was a little kid, I was been telling little Bible stories. So I've perfected, I feel like, my storytelling style. So I feel like that's the trick. You have to be you. You have to be authentic, and then that's what works. And, and I think it. And I think that the other thing too is I like to laugh and I like to watch other people laugh. And I just love. I fought. Yeah. So like, that to me is that' sweet spot. I want to be as vulgar and tell crazy, wild, violent, bloody, baroquely but bloody stories. But I also want to tell you all these absurd things that people do and I've seen do and weird shit, and that'll make you laugh. So I'm like, that's.
- [05:04]
Steve Fishman
I have to tell you, Joe, you know, one of your great talents is you. You make bank robbery seem like a lot of fun. All right, so let me jump in now. So you just make me think bank robbery was fun. Question mark.
- [05:26]
Joe Loya
Okay, let's be clear. Bank robbery in retrospect is fun. You know, like, I can walk in a lot of rooms, and I'm the bank robber. It makes me kind of unimpeachably cool in some ways. Even as an old man, it's like, oh, that dude robbed the banks. 30 banks. So there's something about that makes it like, I can tell these stories with humor. But in order to get to these stories, remember, I had to do seven years in federal penitentiary. And that was no fun. And you can't parse out bank robbery without that because there is a thing that goes with it, and that's the doing the time to get you to reflect on these stories. So I get to the fun part of the. You know, looking back at crime stories, I mean, bank robbery, when are you. When you're in it, you know, it's compulsion. It's. It's. It's disassociation in. In many ways. I mean, if we're being, like, right where you are in it, it's not fun. It's. It's fulfilling in that you've. I am my most. I was my most effective self. I was the least ineffectual male I ever was when I was robbing banks, because I was the most effective I ever did. I married my greed, my rage, put it together, went in there, got the money, walked out and. And did what I wanted to do, and often times, several times a day. So that made me feel purposeful and that made me feel complete. But fun was not the part of it. Especially when you're running away with smoke billowing out of a bag because a die pack has exploded and you. And you got. And you have tear gas in your eyes, it's not necessarily fun that, that in that regard. But in retrospect, when you can put in all the different ironies, like the time that the cops picked me up and I got away with it, and all the different things that I saw that I can laugh about now. Like the woman who I went to robber, and she immediately just started giving money before I was even finished with my spiel. To me, that was funny in retrospect because I thought, why didn't she give it? I didn't even tell her. And then she started giving me the big bills first. So I'm thinking later, like, you know, it's funny. Your boyfriend probably said, hey, man, I'm gonna send this guy named Sancho in and he's gonna come to rob you. And when he does it, just give him all the money, give him the big bills. First. I felt like she. Miss, like, mistook me for a guy who was part of another caper that was supposed to go on after me because she just saw me. I came up and she just started handing me the money when I said this a bank robbery. So, like, in retrospect, certain of those things are funny to me because I can impose, you know, some. Some story on it, but it was peculiar, certainly. Peculiar. Like, that was wild.
- [08:07]
Steve Fishman
Joe, did you feel that you were. This could go on forever, or did you feel. Did you come to know that you were going to get caught?
- [08:19]
Joe Loya
This is a good question because I think that what it implies is that the regular frame of mind is in play so that you know, when you're. When you and I are sitting here, we're thinking, what's going to happen tomorrow? I'm going to do this thing tomorrow. I better. I better make sure I have enough gas because I'm going to go to Oregon like you. You. We plan day to day, week to week, and. And when you're asking that question, you're asking it from that place. But you have to understand, one of the reasons I was able to do what I was able to do. I have no feel for the future. None at all. No posterity. Most criminals don't, which is what makes them impulsive. Because if we thought about the future, we don't want to go to prison. We don't want to spend 10, 15 years. Who does? Nobody chooses them. But we're always on the route there. So how do you get to that route there if you don't want to be there? The way you do it is you don't think about it. And the way you don't think about it is you think, I could die tomorrow. I don't give a. I could die when I go rob this bank. I don't know. And you don't care. Nobody's putting away Money for the 10 years when your treasury bond yield will, you know, will yield your money. Nobody gives a fuck about that. We're not talking about people, and certainly not me, who has any grasp of the future. The one thing I don't want us to do is sit down there and be a drag on my initiative by thinking, oh, what happens if I get caught? That there's none of that, which allows me to just be living in the moment, in the present. I'm mad. I get up.
- [09:48]
Steve Fishman
Joe.
- [09:49]
Joe Loya
What.
- [09:50]
Steve Fishman
Just to get through some details that. That, you know, we've had come in here. What Went through your head when you were picking out your first disguise. Fedora, trench coat, sunglasses.
- [10:02]
Joe Loya
If you look at the bank robbery photos, there might be seven that are out there. And most of them if you could see I'm like just wearing clothes that I had the first bank robbery I wore jeans with rip ripped jeans and a Mickey Mouse T shirt like the first one I did in, in, in 1988. I, I just wore what I was wearing and I never wore a mask, never wore like a disguise. Like so you couldn't see it was me, wasn't me. Right. I didn't, I didn't care. So it wasn't like I was wearing a disguise. I was just wearing clothes. And the nicer clothes I got. Like I had a look, I liked to dress nicely. I wore suspenders, I wore cuffs, I wore Cole Han loafers with tassels. So you see my, the most iconic one of me is walking out there with my suit, my trench coat, my, my, my loafers and I just robbed a vault. But yeah, some, once, once or twice a word. Fedora, you know, sometimes I wore sunglasses. But it wasn't really like I was trying to disguise myself in that regard. But I was always trying to. Towards the end I was trying to wear nice clothes.
- [11:15]
Steve Fishman
So you got married when you got out of prison, right?
- [11:18]
Joe Loya
Yeah.
- [11:21]
Steve Fishman
People were wondering just about your relationship with your wife around your past slow. Did she get tired of hearing about it? Did she get tired of Joe lawyer, the bank robber? Or did maybe she thought it was just sexy as hell. Yeah.
- [11:36]
Joe Loya
But one of the reasons I liked, liked her was when I got out of prison, obviously Hollywood can call me. Oh, can you come and talk to us? We're doing a movie. What do you think about this? And you know, there was, there was a sense in which I felt like I was Joe the bank robber. But I was trying to turn myself into Joe the writer. So I was writing op EDS and I was doing that kind of thing. But my, my wife was introduced to me through my best friend at the time. She was a woman named Olia. And my wife was not so interested in the bank robbies as she was interested that my writing mentor was Richard Rodriguez. Richard was kind of a controversial figure in the Mexican American community. Latino, Mexican American humosity. Because he had been this gay guy who had been catholic gay guy who was against affirmative action and English as a second language teacher. He was like a conservative, but he was my mentor. We had a two year correspondence in prison and he was well known, he was a great writer. They get all published in Harper's and everything that was more fascinating to her. And so my bank rob reaction actually really, she wasn't that interested. When we got, we would start dating, she would say, hey, how's your dad, how's your brother? What? She never asked about what I was writing about or anything. She just. And I remember a couple years later, within a couple years still, we would go to parties, I would hear her people, how many banks did rob? And I could hear her say, I don't know, I think seven or eight. She never, she didn't know how many years I was in prison. I've subsequently, you know, my wife and I are separated now, now after about 20 years, but being together. But I've had girlfriends who like, they're meticulous about understanding my biography, right. And a lot of friends who knew it. But my wife, she just wanted to know who I was. She cared for me, for me. And that was one of the reasons I was hugely attracted in the beginning because the bank Robbie stuff just missed her. She was like, yeah, okay, that, I want to know who you are as a new man, as a reformed guy, you know, that's cool.
- [13:33]
Steve Fishman
And how about your daughter? You have one kid?
- [13:36]
Joe Loya
I have a 19 year old daughter right now, yeah.
- [13:38]
Steve Fishman
So what did you explain to her about your past and, and when?
- [13:43]
Joe Loya
That's a good question. I like this question. Well, kids are really smart in ways that we forget because we were so far away from being little kids. But kids pick up stuff in the air. And right when she was about 7, she started asking me questions like, like we saw a Brinks truck in front of a Safeware in the morning. What, what is, what is that? Is, is that the thing that has money? I was like, yeah. She said, do you know anyone who's ever robbed them? Those kind of things. And I looked at her like, what, what, Where'd that come from? She's seven. So finally at age seven, when this comes up, I realized she started bringing up like robbery a couple times. And I told my wife, I say, I think she's know something. She must have heard something from somebody's parents at school or somebody's, somebody's kid who heard their parents talking about me. Who knows how she got it in her head about bank Robbie? So my wife and I, we took her out to have froyo, her favorite froyo. We went to a part, we did the thing where we were all like, when that, that age, it's all yummy, you know, it's like you're just with the family. It's a great day. And then I sat her down, say hey, you know, I got something to tell you. You know, you know I always go into prisons and you know, I'm a writer. And then I share my book. I wrote about how this time when I was young, I messed up and I robbed banks and I went to prison. And then she says, did you, did you have to pee in a pot? No, I said I wasn't in a French medieval 17th century medieval prison. No, I that regular toilets. And we laughed and we laughed and then it was gone like she was, she was young, I didn't need to sit with it heavy with her in that moment to divulge everything I just said. So I wrote this book, I changed my life, I met your mommy, I came out of prison. And as you go older, let's begin of the conversation, we'll talk about it more. As you have questions, just ask me. And that's how it happened. And they said, okay, can we go play or do something else? And we did.
- [15:41]
Steve Fishman
Wow, that's a great story. It's a little parenting tip.
- [15:45]
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- [16:47]
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- [17:47]
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- [18:47]
Steve Fishman
So jumping around, Joe, people want to know about Baby Driver. So you are hired as a consultant on Baby Driver. And I'm just curious, like, do you have to say, well, what are you guys thinking? Or do you need to course correct or give me some sense of the dynamic there with you.
- [19:10]
Joe Loya
The expert, to be honest with you, is a. It's funny, I think the way I met Edgar made it made it easy for me because when I met Edgar, they called me first and they said, hey, there's a young writer who needs he's stuck on a piece. He's like 50 pages into a script. It's about a getaway driver. And I was like, all right, cool, I'll talk to him. And they said cool. And they sent me up. So I'm coming out in next week they say, great, you can meet them. I'm. I'm an hour from la, from the, the coffee shop. They say, you're going to be meeting Edgar Wright. At this point, I'm like, wait, wait, wait. This is Edgar Wright, like one of my favorite directors. They didn't tell me who it was. They just said like some young writer. I'm thinking some little, you know, first script writer kind of thing. And this is. Baby, this is Edgar, who had done already Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz. And Hot Fuzz, one of my favorite movies. Anyway, I'm going to see him. When I get there, we start talking movies. All. We're talking movies because he's, he loves movies. I love movies. And we just start talking movies and we're talking movies and we're talking. We're not even talking about a script. We're not even talking about any of that. We're talking movies, movies. And we just, we just connect like, like as movie lovers. And then at one point, I'm like, hey, dude, we could sit here and talk still, or I could just take you some banks at Rob. And you could see how I got away. And he was like. I said, which one? He's like, the ladder. Let's do that. Took him. And so I get to show him who I was. I take him out of the car. I did this. I came here. They walked out and I followed me. I, I scared them. I just, I show him how I, how I did it. Like, how I did it, what I was thinking on. And that's what earned me his trust, that when it came to this, I'm not some guy who did it, and I know how it relates to movies and I know the cinematic quality of what I. I'm preparing him to look at it that way. So he says, well, I'm going to start sending you my script. I'm going to start sending you writing. And like, pretty quickly, two, three days later, he starts sending me writing. So I'm a script consultant. I'm, I'm a technical consultant. I'm doing all the things. And basically I would tell him this. You're looking for this character to be this. From what I read, I would, I would hold his standard up. You say he's this guy, he's a shot caller. Well, if you have these guys under here always saying to him, he can't be a shot caller, they will diminish him. A shot caller would. If one guy just says one thing, he's gotta slam him down. So all the other ones look and say, oh, we don't want to do that. And you, you were stupid for trying. Like you. I. I was trying to show him the dynamics of it, which he had no feel for. He's a sweet guy from rural, you know, England. So it's a great filmmaker. But so I would do. I would tell him, here's a standard you've set that you want for him. And these things don't meet that standard. You have to have these characters around, be this. And he would make all these sorts of adjustments. And then technically, one. One of the third bank robbery, he. The Sony came back and said, does it have to be a bank robbery? We already have to. And he said, I don't know. What do you think, Joe? And I said, well, I'll give you a bank robbery that. I'll give you a robbery of a post office that I wanted to do. And that way, if it ever. If I ever backslide, I won't go be able to rob that because it'll be the robbery that I want. I said, let's. Let's hang around the post office. And they did. He gave me the gig to play the guard who ends up getting shot in that by Jamie Foxx. I actually was a. I actually played that role.
- [22:41]
Steve Fishman
Yeah, fantastic. So. And you, you ended up being fan. I mean, people who have listened to get the Money and Run, one of the things they wanted to know about baby drivers. You ended up being a fan of the final product.
- [22:55]
Joe Loya
Absolutely.
- [22:58]
Steve Fishman
Like, is there a movie that just has gotten the heist totally wrong? Like one that's laughable in how it.
- [23:06]
Joe Loya
Understands bank robbery, Johnny Depp and public Enemies. And he makes it look cool and sexy. He comes over the counter, he's got his coat flints and fedora on. He's got his Tommy gun, like. And then that looks like. Like that looks like it could be a robbery. Closer robbery would look like. I do remember one. I was watching that movie Public Enemies, and Johnny Depp jumps over that counter. He. So it's a famous scene. Puts one hand over the counter, hops over. He looks like a caped crusader because his coat's coming over. And I looked at that and I remember, I swear to God, this happened. I was like, God damn, that's so sexy. That's a sexy thing. And then I was like, wait a minute, man, that was me. What am I. I was like thinking, like, man, it would be cool to be a bank robbery. And I'd forgotten for a split second that that was me, that I wore the trench Coat at the fedora. I was a bank robber because it was like so it's so far from my experience now, you know, that for a minute I forgot that I actually owned that fucking status, that fucking moment, you know?
- [24:07]
Steve Fishman
Yeah. All right, so one of the things in get the Money and Run is you capture so beautifully and frighteningly frankly, the rage that you used, you harnessed and kind of recreated as a superpower. What I'm wondering is, does that rage ever surface today?
- [24:38]
Joe Loya
Yeah. Not like that. I'm not young and dumb and full of come kind of thing like you. Like I said, I don't have that impulsivity. I have a family now. I have things. I've made too many choices about my future. I've had to invest a lot of times and getting things done so that another thing can happen or that thing could come to fruition and open up door. Like I've, I've already danced with my posterity well for many, many years. And I made a commitment to try and be a better human being. So I did a lot of work on myself so that that unadulterated, pristine, crystal clear, diamond sharp rage doesn't exist in me in expression anymore. What it did, it became diffuse. And so I eat my feelings because I know one thing. My body knows one thing. It will never forget this. My body never forgets that if someone was coming at me, boom. I'd go right at him. Just I knew that. I don't care. I'm fearless. I'm going to go at you and I'm going to try and take out your. I'm going to stab you, I'm going to imprison. You have to like be this person. My body doesn't forget all the years that I spent committing violence, treachery, innocence. So I know there's a lot of things that I know it can do, it knows it can do and, and has done. So what, what that means is I came out into a world where I can't do that and my body has to live with that. If I've described it as. Imagine you come into a community, you drive in with your nice fast car that can go, that's already gone like 160 on the autobahn. And you're driving this community, the cops pull you over, you got to park that right here. You can't drive that. We all take these, these really small, slow, battery powered like golf carts, slow things in like a little bus. That's how we all travel or we walk and you know, you have speed right there. And these roads could handle your speed, but you have to do what everyone else does. You got to line up in a line and get in these slow moving things that everybody else does. That's what it feels like to be me. Because I was able to once just plow through with this power of mine driven by my rage. So that has made it hard on me at very, at several moments in time when my body was like, Joe, we can do this. Let's do, let's, let's do this. And I had to override it with my morality. Now, you know, I have to say I don't do that well. This thing comes up and it revs so high in me and it takes so much to shove that down. Just, I'm talking a handful of times over the 29 years I've been out, but it's been a handful of times. It's been the dark night of the soul where I was like. And by the time it was over, I just, just, I did not treat myself. I was like live with shame, embarrassment. I felt like a coward, I felt whatever. And so over the years, I feel like I've just eaten my feelings. I, I, I think that the, the 80 pounds overweight I am is, is because there's five men walking around who don't have any holes in them. That's why I have £80 on me. And I feel like, I feel like I can't do what I used to do and feel the, feel the agency and the power of that because I've committed to this life. That said, there is a way, you know, pressure will bust the pipe. So I have to get rid of that somehow. So I write some really dark fucking crime stories and I commit a lot of mayhem to my characters on the page. A lot. And for, like I said, and baroque, primitive, medieval all day long. One of the scenes in, in Queen of the south is in the episode, episode I wrote was that, that there's the, A scene that I wrote was at the, there's this one, a guy was like a Luca Brazzi guy, he goes out to kill someone, he gets killed. And his boss who sent him out to kill the enemy ends up with the enemy who survived. And he's offering them tacos and our guy's scared, like, oh, I sent my Luca Brazzi, I don't know where my Luca Brazzi is. And this guy now is alive and he's trying to be friendly to me. What the is this? Well, the, the tacos he's giving him when he looks at the Spit through clo the clouds and the scenes that he's making them shaving out the got in there for some meat for him. He realizes that that thing has boots on it and it's his. Luca Bris is on the spit spinning and they're shaving his flesh off and him. So that's where my rage goes. My rage goes to scenes like this that are really dark and terrible and violent and vulgar and scary and full of horror and terror. But also, you know, I write comedy stuff too, but.
- [29:49]
Steve Fishman
So Joe, let me ask the bank robberies in. I mean we go through probably half a dozen of them and get the money and run and they just. They do seem like capers. And there's a fun aspect in part because of the way you tell it. You know, you're always kind of laughing, obviously in retrospect, but it seems almost like it was a golden age of bank robbery. The technology was in comparison, really low tech. I mean, could you ever be a bank robber of the same accomplishment today, given what's out there?
- [30:31]
Joe Loya
Yeah. No. I mean, the reason it was easy for me is there was very little bandit glass, right? Very little. I don't. I may have walked into one bank or two in all that 14 months. I was robbing banks in the late 80s in which that. That was up and I had to walk out there was. So now you go into most of them and they have that right. That's just a. That's a regular thing. So no, that, you know, at the counter is not as, as, as easy as it was though. There are still a lot of banks that don't have it. So people are still out there robbing it that way. But it was a golden age in LA like that. When I came out, I would sometimes be in banks. I was like, yeah, I ain't trying to. I would never rob. Even. Even if I got mad and said it, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna go to crime. It would not be to rob banks.
- [31:28]
Steve Fishman
So let me ask you. I mean, another thing was as a successful bank robbery, you were had pockets full of cash and everybody around you, your family, your dad, your brother, stepmother, at some point they all must have known that you were. That you weren't a cook at Crocodile Cafe in Pasadena.
- [31:51]
Joe Loya
Well, the way I covered that was. Remember I was a fugitive in Mexico before I got arrested the first time. And so I told them I hooked up with some really interesting people there. I committed a couple of big time crimes and they held my money for me and I'M living off that. That's all you need to know and nobody said anything. You know.
- [32:14]
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- [35:17]
Steve Fishman
Mean a very central point of get the money and run. It's bookended by your relationship with your father. At the beginning, the abusive relationship and at the end, he's sitting by the door of I guess your bedroom, not letting you out. It's the last episode that we call Fatal Peril. What is your relationship with your father like now?
- [35:44]
Joe Loya
So my dad's 80, I'll be 64 this year. And he is alone. He lives in Alhambra. We, we get along really good. I talked to him three times a week like I talked to him last night. We were laughing our asses off. He's fun, he's got a good sense of humor. He still has his wits about him. So we take care of him. We love him. My brother calls him three nights a week. I call him three nights a week. I don't know very many sons who are as close to their father as my father and I are. And we have a terrible history, you know. And so we overcame so much. My dad gets so much love. It's really simple. I'll tell you how I how it is. We look at it this way, my brother and I, my mother loved my dad. We love my mother. We love and respect the death, the memory of my dead mother. My mother saw something in my father that my brother and I know is at bottom, my dad's a sweet man. He was harassed by his demons and he up and he didn't up 24 7. He just up in cinematic style several times a year. Really bad. But he gave us a lot of good. We are artists. My brother's a musician. I'm a writer, I'm a thinker. I own all the things I am is because of my dad. And he worked hard to give us a lot of advantages that we had. We went to private schools when we were young. Like, we are who we are and we are loving people as we are. And I was able to heal myself because excuse that my dad gave me. So we look at it this way, dad, on your. This is your end game. On your way out, we're just gonna love you. On the way out the way Mommy is not here to love you or mommy is not here to love you. And so that's how we. That's our ethos. And now we just tell him all the good things about his life that we love about him. Wow.
- [37:31]
Steve Fishman
I mean, I hated the man so much in episodes one and two. It was crazy that, that, that ability to forgive is just, I guess one of the miracles of get the money and run. It's. It's crazy the way that happens. One thing that somebody wanted to know about the prison hierarchy. How were you as a bank robber considered in prison a bank robbery?
- [38:00]
Joe Loya
When I got there, it was pretty high on the hierarchy because it's a violent crime and it's money crime. Low crimes are like, you know, obviously sex trafficking across lines because I was a federal prisoner. Drug crimes are low, you know, but we are considered violent men who took our agency into a place, took over an institution, got the money. Like there's. There's some. Something to it. And I believe part of it was most of the guys I met were bank robbers are a bunch of lames. They had just graduated from selling drugs and now they got so up on their own product, they now need to go make money. So they started robbing banks and they. Robbing, you know, they got caught after four or five or three or two, whatever. I wasn't, I didn't. I didn't have the respect for bank robbers. A lot of the society does. Because I feel like society has a sense of the bank robber in a more. A more Hollywood sort of view of it, which, which is. Which is also more mythologized. Meaning in the Depression, those bank robber. The Depression era bank robbers, they were folk heroes. Yeah, they were folk heroes, right? They were. They were the guys who would go into a bank like Baby. Like Baby Face Nelson. He would go into the banks and, and banks in those days, obviously there's nothing digital, Nothing, nothing like that copied. So he would go into banks and he would not only rob them, he would burn the files that had all the mortgages for the farmers so that he would save you. You've been over everyone we're gonna like. We're not only robbing you for us to make money. We're Robbing you because it's a social thing we're doing. Now the other thing that is important about that to, to make the myth go larger is every Hollywood hunk since then has played a bank robber. They've made it so, like, not even Hollywood hunks have to do it. They got that little kid who played Mark Zuckerberg. They had him be a bank robber. They had on the Anzari, like comic little twerpy nerdy dudes play it. They. They have little girls robbing bank. Once upon a time it was like, you know, like Al Pacino and De Niro and Robert Redford and Paul, Paul Newman. Those were the bank robbers, right? But no, now they have everybody play it. So. And. And they come up with heist movies all day long. But there was a time when I think that people thought bank robbery was resistance crime. And it. They had that mythology, the folklore of the Depression era thing. And I think that lingered. By the time I got there in the late 80s, there was still sort of like, we are the outlaw. We are the epitome of the outlaw. So then the hierarchy, bank robbers had like, you know, you say you're bankrupt, like, okay, cool. That's a respectable fucking crime now. That's how I look at. That's what I think. I mean, I did feel like that was how I was treated, you know, like, oh, shit, bank robber.
- [40:53]
Steve Fishman
All right, all right, last question. Just. I want you to say something about your book. It got wonderful reviews. A great accomplishment. You know, you turn yourself, as you said, into a good person, you also turn yourself into a writer. How hard was that?
- [41:13]
Joe Loya
I was disciplined. That was actually one of the reasons I could change my life, because one of the things my dad taught me. My dad taught himself Greek and Hebrew, right? My dad was disciplined. He has a disciplined mind. And he would put in the rigor. My brother taught himself piano and guitar, never took lessons. And so while I was in prison for the last two and a half years, every day I was writing and every day I was reading good writers and I would highlight their words and then I would copy paragraphs down hole. You know, read copy, read, copy and follow their thinking, follow their ideas. The flow, if it has something in the sentence that was surprising, that was provocative, that was new, a word, a novel word, I would write it. And because I wanted to be influenced by. By different minds that were sharp, that I found interesting to me. So I did that. I've sat with many writer friends of mine, and they were. They would all say the same thing. Damn, I wish I had that kind of time. Like, like solitary gave me time and prison gave me time to sit there for hours and do the thing that writers want to do, which is we want to just swim and live and sleep in solitary. I remember I got picked up for solitary a little bit later for stabbing a man in prison. And I was in there for three months under investigation. Oh man, I made it work for me. I would get up, make my bed, I would just write. I just didn't have to listen anyone, didn't have to talk to anyone. And, and I had the luxury of like being fed three times a day, doing an over wreck, showering only three times a week. It was. Wasn't that hard to do it. It was just a lot of work. And fortunately for me, I. It was that kind of work, when you're doing what you really want to be doing, feels like play. And so when you say how hard was it? It wasn't hard. I was having. That was. That was enjoyable. Writing the book was hard because I had to live a lot of ptsd. I didn't know what PTSD was at the time. And so I would go into these things like, oh, I'm going to write all these details for you guys, and then I would write them on. I'd be sitting there afterwards devastated. And that was the hard part was technically writing the, the. The traumatic scenes in my memoir.
- [43:23]
Steve Fishman
You make solitary confinement sound like a National Endowment for the Arts grant.
- [43:32]
Joe Loya
That's interesting you say that because obviously the best. Solitary was the best thing that ever happened to me. Solitary conversity, and this is where paradox is alive. Solitary was the worst thing that ever happened to me. I'm still up psychologically for that. I still have nightmares periodically because of that. I still carry so much fractured because of that, because of the way I was treated. Handcuffed by guards, beaten by guard, like that kind of stuff that happens. What are you gonna do with that? But on the other hand, it created the occasion for me to really experience myself and experience and have an experience that profoundly, profoundly sharpened by vision and, and sparked my imagination so that I like, was awakened to the new me. And so that's who's here. And that happened because of. Because of a hallucination in solitary confinement.
- [44:29]
Steve Fishman
Wow, that's an amazing moment, staring at that wall and starting to hallucinate. And you know, one of the things I think about you, Joe, is that you put us there. And not that I could necessarily feel what you felt, but I could imagine staring in that wall and kind of going crazy. And I think that's one of the real talents that you have as a writer, but also as a storyteller. And I hope that get the Money and Run really captures that. I think it does. So Joe, thanks so much for spending the time with us.
- [45:06]
Joe Loya
Thanks man. Great.
- [45:22]
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- [45:26]
Joe Loya
It's a little pill with a big story to tell. I take one step daily Jardians at.
- [45:33]
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- [45:36]
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- [46:53]
Joe Loya
The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox is.
- [46:55]
Pharmaceutical Advertiser
Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. In 2007, Amanda Knox was halfway around.
- [47:02]
Joe Loya
The world, studying abroad in Italy. She had no idea that her dream would turn into a nightmare, inspired by.
- [47:08]
Pharmaceutical Advertiser
The actual events of her wrongful conviction.
- [47:11]
Joe Loya
And 15 year fight for freedom.
- [47:13]
Pharmaceutical Advertiser
Watt watch the Hulu original series the Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers.
- [47:22]
Joe Loya
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