Are Viral Microtrends Losing Their Cool?

Summary

Summary of "Are Viral Microtrends Losing Their Cool?" Episode of The Business of Fashion Podcast

Release Date: April 29, 2025

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Introduction

In the April 29, 2025 episode of The Business of Fashion Podcast titled "Are Viral Microtrends Losing Their Cool?", host Sheena Butler Young engages in an insightful conversation with senior editorial associate Joan Kennedy. The discussion centers around the phenomenon of viral microtrends in the fashion industry, their rise, impact, and the emerging signs that suggest these fleeting trends may be waning in popularity.

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Understanding Viral Microtrends

The episode begins with Sheena Butler Young and Joan Kennedy defining what constitutes a viral microtrend. Joan articulates, “Micro trends, kind of as you highlighted, are these, like, really fast churn little aesthetics that pop up on social media” (00:31). These trends typically emerge swiftly on platforms such as TikTok and are often driven by youth culture and social media influencers. Examples discussed include aesthetics like cottage core during the pandemic, coastal grandmother, and succession-inspired quiet luxury. Joan emphasizes the ephemeral nature of these trends: “They defined cultural moments, even if they only lasted a few months at a time” (00:40).

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Examples of Microtrends

Joan and Sheena delve into specific examples to illustrate the diversity and rapid lifecycle of microtrends. Joan mentions, “The cool girls are wearing their football shirts this summer” (01:45), highlighting how quickly a trend can gain traction. Other notable microtrends discussed include coquettecore, Annie sleaze, clean girl, mob wife, and the intriguingly vague Tomato Girl.

Notable Quote: Joan describes the Tomato Girl aesthetic: “It's often hard to define where these things exactly start... One of the big movers for that trend was Hailey B. doing a very blushed up look” (02:03).

Personal Anecdotes: Joan shares personal experiences with microtrends, such as inadvertently participating in the Sardine Corps trend: “I was writing a story, I think, in 2023... it was this aesthetic that popped up... It was kind of like an abstraction” (03:10).

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Impact on Retailers and Revenue

The conversation shifts to the economic implications of microtrends for retailers. Joan explains that microtrends provide “spurts of sales boosts for all sorts of retailers, particularly those who cater to young consumers” (06:15). However, the rapid turnover of trends poses challenges for retailers in terms of inventory and merchandising. She notes a transition from viewing trend adoption as a merchandising problem to a marketing opportunity: “If I have the product, I'll talk about it on social media in this way, and then that'll drive people to the site” (05:49).

Case Study: Cowboy Carter and Beyoncé: Joan cites a strategic example where a retailer aligns its merchandising with Beyoncé’s Cowboy Carter tour: “Every time Cowboy Carter would make a stop... they would reorganize and merchandise to put all this cowboy themed stuff at the front of the store” (07:10). This approach ensures that existing inventory is effectively utilized by aligning with current cultural moments.

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The Changing Landscape of Microtrends

Joan Kennedy addresses the signs that suggest microtrends are slowing down. Referencing her article, she discusses insights from Mia Jacobs, a fashion forecaster at WGSN, who observed that the incessant cycle of microtrends felt like being “on the hamster wheel” (08:15). Joan identifies several factors contributing to this deceleration:

1. Post-Pandemic Shift: The initial surge of microtrends emerged post-pandemic when young consumers had more discretionary income and time for experimentation. However, economic uncertainties have led to a shift towards more sustainable and lasting fashion choices.

2. Economic Pressures: Joan highlights the “record amounts of credit card debt” and economic instability as factors leading consumers to delay purchases and prioritize value-driven spending: “People are feeling more compelled to lean into value driven spending to send a message about what they stand for” (11:49).

3. Awareness of Trend Saturation: Increased awareness of the fast-paced trend cycle has led to a sense of exhaustion among consumers, who are now seeking more enduring styles over transient aesthetics.

Notable Quote: Craig Brahmers, American Eagle's Chief Marketing Officer, is quoted saying, “If you would have asked me all of these questions, I would have said that teens move at a lightning speed. But now, like, I'm not so sure” (08:15).

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The Role of TikTok

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around TikTok's pivotal role in driving microtrends. Joan notes, “These micro trends are very much a TikTok phenomenon” (22:31). She explains that TikTok not only acts as the birthplace for these trends but also perpetuates them through features like TikTok Shop, which integrates shopping directly into the platform.

However, the uncertainty surrounding TikTok's future poses challenges for trend prediction and adoption: “Its fate is like, up in the air perpetually right now” (22:12). Joan speculates on alternative platforms where trends might migrate if TikTok's prominence declines, such as YouTube and Instagram Reels.

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Lessons for Brands and Retailers

Joan Kennedy distills several key takeaways for brands and retailers navigating the microtrend landscape:

1. Engage Authentically: Brands must “meet [shoppers] in the moment, speak the same language that they do” (19:05). Authentic engagement through social media conversations is crucial.

2. Event-Driven Merchandising: Aligning product offerings with cultural and social events (e.g., concerts, movie releases) can capitalize on immediate trends without overextending on fleeting aesthetics.

3. Sustainability and Longevity: Focusing on trends that can span multiple seasons and are supported by runway presence or pop culture ensures greater staying power. Divya Mather of Revolve emphasizes looking for “trends that can span multiple seasons” and those that gain traction across various platforms (21:29).

4. Adapt to Changing Consumption Habits: As consumers shift towards value-driven and sustainable purchasing, brands should adapt by promoting longevity and versatility in their offerings rather than chasing the latest fleeting trend.

Notable Quote: Joan shares Revolve's strategic approach: “They look for trends that can span multiple seasons... and look for things that aren't just popping up on social media, but are popping up on the Runway” (21:29).

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with Joan and Sheena reflecting on the transient nature of viral microtrends and the evolving preferences of younger consumers. Joan underscores the importance for brands to balance trend responsiveness with long-term strategy: “They have to both be on trend but also play the long game” (23:47). The discussion highlights a pivotal shift in the fashion landscape, where the relentless pace of microtrends is giving way to a more thoughtful and sustainable approach to consumption and style.

Final Thoughts: Joan expresses gratitude for the conversation, stating, “This was such a learning moment for me to get immersed into micro trends and the Gen Z, but also not only Gen Z, but in their way of thinking and consuming online content and how that drives how they actually dress up” (24:06).

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Key Takeaways:

• Viral microtrends are characterized by their rapid emergence and short-lived popularity, heavily influenced by social media platforms like TikTok.

• Economic factors and a desire for sustainability are contributing to a slowdown in the microtrend cycle, as consumers prioritize lasting styles over fleeting aesthetics.

• Retailers and brands must adapt by engaging authentically with consumers, aligning with cultural events, and focusing on trends with longevity.

• TikTok's role remains central to trend creation, but uncertainty around the platform’s future necessitates diversification of trend-sourcing strategies.

• Long-term strategies that balance trend responsiveness with sustainable practices are essential for navigating the evolving fashion landscape.

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For more insights, listeners are encouraged to read Joan Kennedy's article, "The Decline and Fall of the Viral Microtrend," available to BOF Professional subscribers at businessoffashion.com.

Transcript

[Joan Kennedy]

Foreign.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Hello, and welcome to the Debrief from the business of fashion, where each week we delve into Our most popular BoF.

[Joan Kennedy]

Professional stories with the correspondents who created them. I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler Young.

[Sheena Butler Young]

You've probably heard of at least one, maybe more of them.

[Joan Kennedy]

Viral micro trends.

[Sheena Butler Young]

The fast and often fleeting aesthetics that capture the imagination of young fashion consumers.

[Joan Kennedy]

On platforms like TikTok. From cottage core at the height of.

[Sheena Butler Young]

The pandemic to coastal grandmother and even succession inspired quiet luxury, these micro trends.

[Joan Kennedy]

Defined cultural moments, even if they only lasted a few months at a time.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Lately, though, the rapid trend cycle is losing steam. Consumers seem over the churn, and many are craving something more lasting.

[Joan Kennedy]

To break this all down, I'm joined.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Today by senior editorial associate Joan Kennedy. Hi, Joan. Welcome to the Debrief podcast.

[Joan Kennedy]

Hi, Sheena. Thanks for having me to talk about one of my favorite topics.

Oh, I know it is. So did my definition of micro trends suffice? How did I do?

You did well. Micro trends, kind of as you highlighted, are these, like, really fast churn little aesthetics that pop up on social media. Often they're identified and defined by social media users.

[Sheena Butler Young]

How to dress like an office Siren. First, start with a fitted blouse, turtleneck, or high neck tank.

[Joan Kennedy]

And then like the algorithm, as everybody's talking about them, kind of blows them up. Let's talk about the fisherman aesthetic that's making its way back this swing. And they really kind of attempt to categorize or define a sort of it moment. Often for young people, this is how.

The cool girls are wearing their football shirts this summer.

You name some great examples. Others are like coquettecore Annie, sleaze, clean girl, mob wife came up recently. Things like Office Siren, and then even more vague ones like Tomato Girl.

[Sheena Butler Young]

What is tomato Girl, by the way?

[Joan Kennedy]

These. Some of these I can kind of picture when I hear office Siren. I'm thinking of like someone in like, a powerful suit, but maybe it's a little bit sexy or edgy. What is Tomato Girl?

[Sheena Butler Young]

And do you partake in any of these trends?

[Joan Kennedy]

Oh, my gosh. Well, Tomato Girl, it was this aesthetic that bubbled up. I guess it was in 2022 or 2023. Well, it's. It's often hard to define where these things exactly start. But, like, one of the big movers for that trend was Hailey B. Doing a very blushed up look. And so it kind of had its roots in this makeup look, but then it kind of. It also proliferated into fashion a little bit. I remember I had a friend who was going to a bachelorette party, and one of the themes was red, and she was like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna lean into Tomato Girl and buy this tomato dress that's going viral. I don't typically participate in the micro trends, but I love to watch. One of my favorites and one that I think maybe I have, like, unwittingly participated in was Sardine Corps.

Oh, no, I don't know how I feel about that one yet.

It was a funny one because it was not on my radar at all. And I was writing a story, I think, in 2023 again, and the source that I was speaking to brought it up, and she's like, oh, of course. Sardine Corps, you know? And I was like, no, I do not know what you're talking about. But it was this aesthetic that popped up that was kind of. First, it started presumably with this Claire V. Sardine shirt that went viral. And then you were seeing, like, the Bottega Veneta bags with the sardines on them. And then there were, like, stod bags with sardines on them. And that one, for me, personally, came as I was starting to eat a lot more tinned fish. So I was like, oh, my God, has it gotten to me without me realizing it?

That is funny.

But another thing about the micro trends beyond just, like, these kind of overarching aesthetics is that they're often, like, really linked to products. Some of them are, like, just specifically centered around products. Like, one of the first micro trends that we saw really pop up post pandemic was that there was this. I don't know if you're familiar with this. There was this House of Sunny dress that everybody wanted, and it was. Everybody had to have it. And then the dupes followed, and it was like, House of Sunny dress. House of Sunny Dupes. And that was, like, probably one of the first ones that I remember, but also, I think, like, this kind of Stanley Cup.

Oh, God, now you're speaking my language. But it's very true that when you talk about the micro trend, I'm looking for a distinction as a millennial myself.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Between what drove trends in my era.

[Joan Kennedy]

Trends have always been around, right? Like, but when I was coming up, it came from a fashion magazine, an editorial, or from a movie or from a fashion show, and they moved much, much slower. Micro trends are similar in that they're coming from youth culture, which is very important for a long time, but also they're celebrity driven. And then there is a product, Right? But it's. It's a. It's a. Sometimes a set of products. It's a whole aesthetic.

Yeah, definitely. And it's.

[Unknown]

It's.

[Joan Kennedy]

It's one of those things where it's harder to trace where trends are coming from and why and all of that. Like, often when it comes to micro trends, I think you would like. Well, they typically. A lot of conversation takes place on TikTok, which I'm sure we'll dive a little bit more into. But I feel like a lot of the discussion about micro trends and their heyday was really about, like, okay, we've identified this aesthetic. Now we're seeing it on the Runway. Oh, my gosh. Like, that's legitimizing it. But also, given that there are products, a lot of times, like, retailers would often kind of, like, buy into this front. This. And, like, that helps really proliferate these.

That's a good point, because retailers are.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Buying into trends that are coming off.

[Joan Kennedy]

Of platforms like TikTok, as fleeting as they were and are. How much of a revenue driver do you think a micro trend was or is for retailers? Like, is it a fast fashion moment or luxury? You mentioned Bottega Veneto at the Sardine Shirt. I guess they drove that trend, didn't have to buy into it. But what part of a strategy would a micro trend be for a retailer? And is it a revenue driver?

They definitely provide these spurts of sales boosts for all sorts of retailers, particularly those who do cater to young consumers. But I think one of the important learnings of this whole thing is, number one, like, when they started to pop up and we're constantly, like, two months and then we have a new one and it's on to the next. I think there was a lot of anxiety among retailers of, like, do I have the right item at the right time? Is this something that I need to buy into? Like, should I ignore it? That sort of thing. And it was kind of like a merchandising question, but I think it's really become a marketing question. Like, retailers have gotten a hold of how these things work, and it's kind of become a thing of, if I have the product, I'll talk about it on social media in this way, and then that'll drive people to the site. Or I will position things in stor kind of around, like, Coastal Cowgirl, for example. I already had the products, but it's more just like a way of talking about them now.

Absolutely. I remember I did a story with a retailer around the cowgirl, several retailers, but around the cowboy Carter, Beyonce's album, and the Western. We're getting like yet another boom like Western wear. Brands will tell you that the. That it's always been important, but it's ridden some trend waves recently. And a particular retail CEO said that every time Cowboy Carter would make a stop in a certain town and their store was there, they would reorganize and re merchandise to put all this like cowboy themed stuff at the front of the store. So the same merchandise, but just sent front and center aligned with Beyonce's tour dates and Cowboy Carter, which I thought was really interesting. I want to pivot a little bit to the fact that the landscape is changing so we understand these trends, we understand where they're important to especially the young consumer, and then why retailers and brands will want to buy into them. But something's changing. In your article, you spoke with Mia Jacobs, who's a fashion forecaster at the company wgsn and she said we were on the hamster wheel and we couldn't get off of it. And now that has changed. What is sparking the deceleration in the micro trend cycle?

A lot of things are sparking this. It's funny because when I first started thinking about writing this article, I obviously do a lot of trend coverage and I'm kind of always watching and like evaluating these things and what they mean for brands and retailers. But at the end of the year last year I was kind of thinking about like, okay, like what have been like the defining Internet trends of this year? And there were very few that came to mind. And I started to realize like, oh, the, the ones. There are some that are. That have stuck around from years past that are still very much relevant. I think, I hate to say it. Quiet luxury.

Well, that's one of the things I think the luxury industry benefited from. Or like brands with a distinct point of view, like the Row and Kate could really lean into that. And that has persisted. It was less trend anyway. Like, it's not like sparkly cowboy hat for a season. It's truly has some of those staple moments there.

Yeah. And there are some that I think probably started as, okay, this is not going to be a quiet luxury esque thing, but it's going to be like a mermaidcore type thing like bloatcore. But that has retailers talk about, oh, things that you would categorize under bloatcore are still really relevant to our shoppers that stuck around a surprisingly long time. There was this really interesting moment happening last year to me, and it felt like these things were kind of slowing down all at once. And then I was like, well, when did this happen? And I think the root causes are. There are a lot of things. Number one, these things really popped up and gained steam post pandemic, which was when a lot of young people were coming out of hibernation, had extra savings because they hadn't been going out for years, and also had a lot of extra time and were kind of ready to explore a lot of these things. They felt like, and still feel like people trying on these different identities and kind of like there's like, a sense of play to them right now. Now we're seeing a little bit more exhaustion around that. People are talking about more than ever, kind of just this viral churn and how wasteful it is and that sort of thing, but also at the same time, kind of realizing, okay, some of these trends were a little goofy. Some of them are kind of fake. One social media expert that I talked to for the story said that he noticed that people have largely started thinking about these micro trends as, like, they're almost like a meme. Like, they're like an abstraction. So there's a lot of awareness around that. And I think also after this period of just experimentation and talking about it and talking about it, young shoppers are really looking to grasp onto something solid right now. I spoke to Craig Brahmers, who is American Eagle's chief marketing officer, and he told me a year ago, if you would have asked me all of these questions, I would have said that teens move at a lightning speed. But now, like, I'm not so sure. Their consumption habits, like, seem to be changing a little bit. And I think a big part of that is the reality of this environment that we're living in right now. People don't have as much savings. We're kind of like, in this. In the US in particular, this space of where there's record amounts of credit card debt and there's just been, like, a lot of economics, social uncertainty, people widely pulling back, delaying purchase, that sort of thing.

Were they also sort of a little goofy? Like, some. Like you mentioned this point of, like, I hear you. There's definitely these trends emerged at a time, or we're. We're having a heyday at a time when people had more discretionary income. They felt more playful. Right now, we're in a time where I think people feel like things are serious. The economic backdrop is not what it was, you know, two years ago. And then also you're seeing things that are coming out of the administration that maybe Target some of these environmental, social, governance things. And I think people are feeling more compelled to lean into like value driven spending to send a message about what they stand for. But also on a lighter note, they.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Were just getting a little goofy.

[Joan Kennedy]

Yeah, definitely. I mean, sardine core. They're a little goofy, but like that is part of it. It was. And it was like there was a sense of play and like at the same time a lot of people were like, you know, this is back in like TikTok when it was like first kind of emerging as like the new popular app. So it was very fun to like play around with these and you know, like influencers even. I think we're a bit incentivized to do that to post this new aesthetic, talk about it. And then here are the affiliate links, like where you can get this look kind of thing. And yeah, beyond just kind of the environmental uncertainties and this feeling of a little bit uncertainty right now, I think also people are really leaning in. One of the things that has become very dominant on social media is people talking about their personal style. This race to what is my personal style has kind of not replaced, but maybe displaced the micro trend churn a little bit. See influencers talking about, here's how to find your personal style, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then on the other hand, you are seeing products kind of geared at showcasing personal style. Like over the past year and I think still really popular are bag charms, whether like homemade or brands selling these, like Miu Miu selling these pre made bag charms. And I think a lot that like really hit for a lot of people. And this kind of like, let's front this like really worn in Jane Birkin beat up bag. Lots of things coming off of it. Aesthetic. Yeah. And late last year we also. Or no, late 2023 actually, we were sort of kind of talking about these trends. Grandpa core was one that emerged that is, you know, you think about it, you're like, that's goofy. And then my grandpa. No, no, me too. Great style. But you think about a trend like that and the trend was based around wearing vintage and kind of putting together things really eclectically. And that may look like, oh, it's just this quick, fast fashion thing. But I think it also really spoke to one of the moods at the time, which was young people feeling like, oh, I really want to have this long term cultivated, good style items that have been in my closet forever. That sort of thing.

Yeah. So micro trend does not necessarily mean the fashion itself or that garments itself are fleeting. It could actually mean picking one staple thing and being and participating in a trend that might move quickly, but that item can stick around. You know, it's funny, as you were speaking, I thought about this phrase that an analyst I would interview all the time about millennials and Gen Z, but particularly millennials. He would always say, when we, as in millennials, were coming of age, our whole e. I want to be different, just like my friends. And a lot of what you're saying sounds like that. It sounds like fashion doing its cyclical thing again. There's another thing that you mentioned, your story that I want to talk about.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Which is under consumption core and de influencing.

[Joan Kennedy]

What are those two things? And what do they say about this moment that we're in?

Yeah, that under consumption core and de influencing are two things that I pointed to as kind of evidence that this whole thing was slowing down. And they both kind of have to do with buy less, buy better, which is an old idea. But influencers have really started talking about, like, hey, you don't have to buy new things. Number one, you don't have to participate in trends, actually, like, don't buy. And so that's been an interesting thing to see bubble up, is that influencers encouraging people not to buy clothes.

I bet brands and retailers really love that.

Yeah. But one of the things that became really popular online, particularly with a very, like, fashion crowd, is Mandy Lee, a trend forecaster and writer and influencer who I spoke to for this story. She has been talking a lot about this 75 hard styling challenge, which is, like, kind of adjacent to the 75 hard fitness challenge, but it's fashion's version, and it just has to do with, like, not buying anything new and then documenting your outfits and kind of, like discovering your closet again. And that's something that has really, I think, hit a note with people and kind of been evidence of this.

We'll be back with more of the.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Debrief right after this.

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[Joan Kennedy]

I love with one of the sources in the article said they talked about the fact that these flurry of micro trends showed to brands and retailers that consumers want them to be playful. They want them to not take themselves so seriously and engage in like a TikTok or a social media moment and be a part of the conversation. Not at arm's length telling people what to buy, but to engage. Any other lessons you think that brands and retailers can take forward from the micro trends boom?

Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. That is a big one that like shoppers, young shoppers want brands that like meet them in the moment, speak the same language that they do. And I think probably like the biggest takeaway from my perspective for brands and retailers is that like a lot of these, those that like really stuck around and like had staying powered or I mean just fueled like big sales bursts, a lot of those were tied to particular events. Whether it's like you're going to the US Open or the US Open is just happening and that's like inspired you to dress or like you're going to a concert, dressing up for like the eras tour or Brat Summer or whatever, going to the movie or like being kind of inspired by the movies we saw that happen with like Barbie and Barbiecore and people dressing up to go out. That this whole sense of, of what I am doing is how I'm dressing has become like very popular among young shoppers. And I don't think that that is something that's going away. And the smart retailers are plugging into these kind of like, you know, something's happening, we know about it, we're gonna make a tab on our website that kind of like directs shoppers there. And then we're gonna like use the merchandise that we already had. And that that is a really smart way to plug into this I think is like the big, big takeaway from this and what retailers should watch, pay attention to going forward and then we have other learnings related to, like, how to identify things that actually have staying power. And I spoke to Divya Mather, who is Revolve's chief merchandising officer, and she told me that Revolve, who is one of, like, the retailers that has been pretty good about, like, being reactive to these things. Obviously they have, like a young audience, so it makes sense for them. But she says that they look for trends that, number one, can span multiple seasons because that's kind of like a showcase that they'll stick around or a better bet that they're gonna stick around more. And then number two, look for things that aren't just popping up on social media, but are popping up on social media. And then, oh, you see something related on the Runway. And then, oh, maybe there's this pop culture happening that is similar or, like, could potentially help drive. This is another important learning, I think.

Yeah, I love that list that you provided. It's like if it shows up in multiple places, if it can be worn across seasons, like, you know, like the Mob Wives era was not as long lasting. I mean, honestly, it was for me because I. I was like, I was accidentally on trend with that one. But it can be worn across seasons and it's easy to buy into. I think those are all important things to keep in mind on the consumer side, but also the retail. I want to also talk, go back a little bit for a second to TikTok. TikTok's fate is like, up in the air perpetually right now. Like, one minute we have it, one minute we don't. Maybe it's going to go away, maybe it's going to stay. What role does TikTok's fate play in all of this in terms of trends? Like, where else will people look if TikTok does fade?

It's hard to tell. I mean, these micro trends or trends in general, they don't just exist on TikTok. Like, you'll. You'll see them pop them on, like, YouTube, Instagram. They'll finally make their way to Instagram reels after eventually.

Facebook. No, probably not Facebook, but I don't know.

Haven't checked my Facebook in a while. But they are definitely, like, very much a TikTok phenomenon. Like, TikTok is where these things start. It's where they, like, gain Steam. And so, yeah, they are, like, pretty inherently connected to the platform and so it'll be interesting. And they are pretty connected to the platform. And we've even, like, seen TikTok launch TikTok shop and kind of like try to directly like play into that. And I think that has helped fuel some of this consumption as well. So it'll be interesting to see what happens with TikTok and how that affects this whole kind of already slowing cycle. But yeah, it will be interesting to see. But a lot of the marketers and social media experts that I spoke to for this story told me that as they kind of watch what's happening with TikTok, they're they're asking their clients to number one, lean into more evergreen identity based marketing and number two, rethink what virality looks like. A lot of these trends, something goes viral, a brand gets a ton of sales. Yay. But let's take a step back as that might shift and brands have to be ready for that.

They have to both be on trend but also play the long game. I think that is a good point to end on, Joan. This was such a learning moment for me to get immersed into micro trends and the Gen Z, but also not only Gen Z, but in their way of thinking and consuming online content and how that drives how they actually dress up. Thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you for having me. This was great.

Please be sure to check out Joan's article the Decline and Fall of the Viral micro [e-mail] this and other stories.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Are available to BOF Professional subscribers only.

[Joan Kennedy]

And you can find the links in the episode notes.

[Sheena Butler Young]

You've been listening to the Debrief, produced and edited by Olivia Davies and Eric Brea.

[Joan Kennedy]

I'm Sheena Butler Young.

[Sheena Butler Young]

We'll be back next week with a new episode.

[Joan Kennedy]

Thanks so much for joining us and be sure to follow us wherever you get your podcasts.

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