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The Business of Fashion Podcast
Examining 20 Years of Fashion’s Influencer Economy
00:28:11
At BoF VOICES 2025, Susanna Lau, Bryan Yambao, Camille Charrière and Gstaad Guy reflect on finding their voices, speaking to their communities and how brands need to get out of the wider luxury malaise.
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
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B
Hi, this is Imran Ahmed, founder and CEO of the Business of Fashion. Welcome to the BoF Podcast. It's Friday, January 9th. What began as scrappy self publishing has become a finely tuned industry machine. Influencing is now big business. Four of the industry's most influential creators came together at BoF Voices 2025 to take a hard look at what influencing has and where it should go in the future. Susanna Lau opens the conversation by ditching the earnest tropes and asking a harder question. How can creators keep their integrity as agencies, briefs and budgets multiply? Brian Yambaugh, AKA Brian Boy, reflects on the pre iPhone Wild west. Scanning magazines, posting affiliate links from his bedroom in Manila, and the shock of realizing that the people he wrote about were suddenly reading him. Camille Chargier charts the shift from do your thing freedom to 30 page briefs and layered gatekeepers, arguing that creators must push back to preserve the audience trust that has made them valuable in the first place. And through the lens of satire, StadtGuy challenges brands to confront what their communities are already saying before they say it out loud. Together, they interrogate luxury's malaise and the need to recalibrate the industry around craft community and credibility. Here's Brian Yambaugh, Camille Sherrier and ShotGuy together with Susanna Lau on the BoF podcast.
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C
We were laughing backstage at the pictures being brought.
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A
I know we had a big debate.
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B
Would they get mad if we showed those pictures? I was like, no, this is about us.
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D
We're not approved color agents.
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C
I'm so happy to be here, first and foremost to celebrate 10 years of EOF voices. I've personally done so many panel talks with different influencers, content creators over the years and generally speaking, you get the kind of same earnest kind of tropes about being authentic, being organic, repeated over and over again. So I'm kind of keen to treat this not like that. And I would really kind of like to do this panel how we would speak to each other on WhatsApp, you know, where we're constantly trading info about our work, spilling the tea about brands because the landscape is constantly changing day to day, hour to hour, and all of us navigate this attention economy in really different ways. So I wanted to start with you, Brian, because you're the closest and you're actually obviously a friend as well. So you and I would probably call ourselves, you know, the first generation in self publishing, in fashion, where there was no economy to speak of. So I wondered if you could talk about that turning point from being that blogger in Manila and then Going to shows, being seen as a novelty fixture on the fro. And that shift from outsider to insider.
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D
It'S fascinating because I've always, I mean, even though, you know, it's been 22 years since I started my blog, I still feel like I'm an outsider, which is quite fascinating because, you know, I have access, you know, the access that I have now. It's so different than when I started. You know, when I started, there was no iPhone, there was no instant information culture. I would scan magazines on a glass top scanner, make my commentary and, you know, take pictures, you know, using a DSLR camera. And it's quite dslr. I know. And it's quite surreal to see that the people that you're writing about actually follow and read you. You know, I think that kind of made the whole thing kind of like worth it. You know, it made, you know, something that I thought was inaccessible and impossible. You know, growing up, I would read magazines. I'm like, there's no way I'm gonna talk to, I don't know, like Mark Jacobs or any other.
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C
He named a bag after you.
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D
Yeah, you know, there was. It just seemed so inaccessible. So I had that confidence to write whatever I feel like it because I was kind of like I had this illusion that they're not gonna read about me, they're not gonna read my comment, they're not gonna read my articles, whatever, no one cares. But somehow, because of the Internet, it did so that for me to see the people and the creatives, and not just creatives, like even, you know, industry people and editors. You know, I remember like I was like 13 years old, I know the masthead of Vogue. So to see industry people read the blog or at least come across it or kind of like get in touch, that's what's kind of like, oh, wow, you know, it's real. The people behind the images that we see are real. And it's a real industry in a way. Back then it was just, it's a wild, wild west. There was no roadmap, there's no template. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what I was doing. All I knew was that I had a voice.
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C
And then with that acknowledgement from the industry, obviously when we talk about an influencer economy, you know, we have to remember that so many those infrastructures that we have today, you know, social media agencies, talent representation, digital activation budgets, none of that actually existed like when we first started. I've been on all sides, obviously as a creator, ambassador, engaging talent working with legacy media. And I've seen how in those different scenarios, you can be out of sync with one another, and that can kind of really hamper the resulting content or what you're trying to do. So, Camille, I wanted to kind of turn to you and ask about those working relationships with brands and how they've changed since you first started.
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A
It's so interesting because I think that's one of the things that's changed the most, actually. When we first started out, as you said, there was no industry. And I think a lot of us were doing it for the joy almost than building a community. And I think there was such a sense of togetherness because it was such a small amount of people that were speaking to each other online. And it was the first time that we were able to kind of find our tribes, even though we didn't have contacts. And it's an industry that's known to be difficult to access, especially if you haven't grown up in one of the major cities, especially if you don't have the kind of parents that can pay for your rent while you have an internship in a magazine. Which was not the case for me. And I had to. If I wanted to live in London, I had to earn money. And the blog kind of. It started as an idea to supplement my job, and then it grew and grew and grew. But I think what's really interesting is that in the beginning, the brands who would reach out to us didn't know how to use us. It was us teaching them. They would send us a bit of money and say, do what? Do your thing. And I think that is the thing that has changed the most, because as the creator and influencer economy has grown, I think it was valuated at 250 billion last year in 2024, and it's set to almost double, I think, by 2027. And I think with that huge increase in visibility and the budgets just being so big has come a lot of control and pushback from brands. And not just the brands. I think there. There's also, like, as you explained, all these extra players that have inserted themselves. So, like these agencies that come in and pitch to the brands and add a lot of noise, I think, to the conversation and fail to remember that the real reason why this took off in the first place was because of that connection that you build with your audience and because of that voice, that the only way for it to translate and to convert and to actually have a real sway on the customer or your audience is to kind of be true to your own voice. And I think that is the thing that I found the hardest in recent years because as brands have got more savvy, they've understood that they kind of need us. We're part of the economy. I mean, even journalists who were sneering at us in the beginning have all joined the party. Like everyone at Vogue is like doing advertorial branded stuff online. It's in a way like we've been a little bit vindicated, but the trade off has been a little bit of loss of control over what we built in the first place. And I think that is where I know that I spend a lot of time behind the scenes having that discussion with brands very openly because I have realized that as long as you bring this up and you explain to them why you want to do things differently to the 30 page brief that they've sent with a clear idea of each shot and what it's going to look like. And actually the problem is in a way, like we're selling advertising space now. We've effectively replaced the magazines because no one is reading them. Sadly. I think that's really, I refuse to.
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D
Agree because I work in a magazine. But I mean, for me, what I really find fascinating over the years is that, I mean, I remember the first paycheck that I got from influencing it was actually through a company called Linkshare, which is an affiliate company. And I remember 2005, it was August. And you know, back then there was E Luxury. And then Net A Porter came and my first PayCheck was a $12,000 wire transfer because I sold on, you know, commissions, you know, through Net A Porter. So thank you, Nathalie Massenet, wherever you are. But you know, that's when I thought, okay, you know, that's a year after I started my blog. I could, you know, I had no idea or even a sense of direction on how to monetize it because again, you know, I, I had no agent. I was in my bedroom. But what I do know is, is that I had an audience who responds to whenever I would post affiliate links. I remember I sold so many of those Marc by Marc Jacobs belts like bags. And in the end I was like, okay, this is a good revenue source. So all I need to do is kind of like I was a 22 year old, post links, post pictures, na na na na na. And it worked out. And it's fascinating. Just like that was what I did 20 years old one years ago. And then to see it on vogue.com or Conde Nast Having an entire division dedicated to shopping, editors and shopping, it's wild. I mean, obviously I don't do, you know, affiliate sales anymore. But to see it scale to a larger scale now in a way, like it's so industrialized and the norm. It's fascinating to see all of our, what we did back then, it's kind of like commonplace.
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C
Well, they're co opting basically all the things that they sneered at in the beginning. Cultural affirmative. They're just co opting it for their own profits. I wanted to talk about the kind of next big game changer. So obviously we worked out how to make money. All the kind of infrastructures are in place. The next big game changer was obviously platforms turning to video and specifically short form video. So I'm really excited to see speak to the Stark guy as you have, I think, a really different perspective from all of us here. I mean, let's just get into it. Like, how did you start this Persona? And like when did you realize you could use this Persona to actually build a business out of it?
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E
Thank you for having me here. And before I answer that, I just want to say how cool it is to call this work. Like, I think we're all so blessed to be in this room in the first place. And of course to be on the stage and to call expression something fun work is really cool. So I just want to acknowledge that I started this seven years ago in January and I was initially just having fun. And I realized that having fun and communicating something serious through fun has always been a truth, but it's a truth now more than ever. I think we all come from the same generation, a very online generation. But the past five years I think is especially like Gen Z. Gen Alpha is like the most unserious generation to date. Like if you're scrolling on Instagram or TikTok, people talk about serious topics, but they're laughing and they're adding humor and they're adding this light heartedness. Could be a coping mechanism, could be a delivery mechanism, who knows? But I think that's the truth. And I noticed that through satire and through my sometimes very fictional, sometimes less fictional storytelling, people would actually think and think about how they consume, think about how they create. And three or four years later I figured out how to turn that into a business by working with brands who felt like they could work with me to tell stories on their behalf and say the things they couldn't say. I think where some brands, as Camille was saying, fail, is when they try to work with a third party to tell their same story versus to work with an ambassador to tell a different story, which is by design, what an ambassador is. Right. So I'm blessed to have worked with brands that have allowed me to use my own language to tell a different story, still in line with their growth and their business.
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C
And Stab Guy, I mean, I want to dig deeper into that because as Camille said, we've been in those rooms and conversations where we've experienced experience pushback and, you know, lots of just not in sync, no synergy. But, you know, they want the content, they want you in some capacity. So with your particular platform, obviously it's through satire, you are effectively taking the piss, out of breath somewhat. So, you know, how do you navigate those conversations, like behind the scenes and work within their parameters, but also be true to your audience and your community?
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E
So I want to go back to a word that we've spoken about a lot today, and in general, it's this word of authenticity. And I think authenticity is such a nuanced word because is authenticity transparency? Is authenticity being agreeable? Is authenticity being vulnerable? And the answer is it's. It's really all of the above in however you want to use it. In the case of Stad Guy, authenticity is acknowledging the reaction before it's made by the audience. I think as time goes on, people through knowledge and through access to knowledge, become more discerned as consumers of media and consumers of product. And as they become more discerned, they become less receptive to crap, right? The bullshit, you know, and they have a reaction that if you really sit in that marketing room and pause for a second and put on your consumer hat on instead of your marketeer hat on, you can kind of assume, you can assume how the audience is going to react to something. So if you can take that pause and that, let's call it an authentic pause with the marketing teams you work with and say, do you really think your audience is going to buy this? What's your audience going to say? And then just have someone like Stadt Guy or another creator say that first so you can tell the story versus have someone else tell your story on your behalf. And the language of comedy and the language of satire allows for that to be more digestible. Because at the end of the day, like, yeah, we're all here and there's lots of very serious topics and lots of very serious and negative byproducts of the industry. But by definition, most of what we've discussed today is a luxury and it should be consumed and discussed with A smile on our face and not like this, you know, this big scary thing.
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C
So I wanted to like ask all of you actually just, you know, going back to the kind of video short form and, you know, in this kind of, you know, I think one of the biggest discussion points from last year season of shows back in September was who gets to critique? You know, it's, everybody has an opinion, everybody has a digimike. Everybody is, you know, expressing themselves for better or for worse. So I kind of wanted to get, you know, all of your thoughts about who gets to critique and how you approach, I guess, this concept of negativity for engagement.
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D
Well, that's the reality that we live in. You know, negativity sells online. I mean, attention is abundant, but as a result, desire is kind of like scarce. You know what I mean? We can all talk about fashion. There's so much noise online, but what does it do for the industry in a way? I mean, I kind of like learned how to filter it all out. I don't really engage with a lot of the videos and my algorithm is so disconnected from like the fashion noise that we're seeing. And it's interesting that, you know, the brands can kind of like support this in a way, they contribute to this noise. So kind of like I kind of like, you know, remove myself from that. And in a way, I'm also starting to become more vocal. I mean, I've always been vocal in the beginning, but lately I was like, okay, you know, I really don't want to contribute to that noise by adding myself and doing a green screen video and doing a fake review based on one picnic, you know, one look. I don't want to do that, but I thought I'd, you know, since I kind of have a seat on the table, I want to say things with meaning. I want to be more constructive and I kind of want to hold people to a higher standard in the same way I'm putting myself up to a higher standard. I have a responsibility to do that. So I try to be careful nowadays with what I say online, as opposed to when I was 22 in a train wreck, which a lot of them are now, you know, are. So I kind of get it, but.
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A
It'S interesting to compare because I remember those days and you mentioned it before, when you're writing in your bedroom into the void and in your mind, no one important of any significance is going to read your content. Yes, people will pick it up, but not the fashion people. Whereas now I think with having a platform and a voice comes the responsibility of using that wisely and not just contributing noise, creating controversy. That said, I do think that the industry has a problem with taking accountability in general, and it makes it hard for us to actually express those feelings as they, you know, arise. I can think of, you know, magazines, you know, shooting with Tesla, for example, and it creating a big backlash. I used to say when I went into fashion because I came from the corporate world that I. I wanted to come and plant a bomb in the middle of it. And I realize now it was so sort of arrogant to talk like that. But I do think that the only way to drive change is to have these conversations. Now the way I do it is that I try and have those conversations in the room with the brand, not necessarily online. I think actually, like, you can bring your feedback to the table without having to blast someone online. I think that actually is very valuable use of my time because I'm also a consumer and I really understand my audience because they feed me back through comments. So I can. I can kind of predict what's going to happen when a brand asks me something. And I think that is a really valuable use of our knowledge. And it's something that I'm always happy to contribute and sort of spend time with the brands that I work with to really just add that value that I think I don't see myself as just a vehicle by which, you know, you put me in something and then that's it, we're done. I've been thinking a lot about my legacy and, and what it means to have had a voice for as long as I have online and how best to use it. And obviously you make choices with that and you decide to speak. I mean, I know that for me, for example, I was very political this past year, and it caused big problems with brands who, like lvmh, got me on a call with seven lawyers saying that now in my contract, it was going to be written in that I had to be neutral politically because I'd gone to a protest and I was. I said, absolutely not. I said, I'm not a brand. I'm an ambassador for you. But we are people. We are not brands at the end of the day, certainly for me, because I know that it's different for a lot of us, but I see my online self as an extension of my offline self. And I think that's also where my bond with my audience is. They know that, and they can see that my voice is 360, that I don't just talk about fashion. I talk about personal, like my IVF journey, for instance. And I've talked about political, you know, advocating for Gaza, et cetera. And I think. I think that was something that really shocked and scared me because obviously we know what the business is. The business is about making money. And the brands are going to selfishly just want to do what is best for them. And obviously what's best for them is for everybody to be neutral because then they can sell to everyone. And that's what I kind of reminded them. I said, like, it's all very well for you to want to be neutral, but even that is a trend in itself, because think about Black Lives Matter. Every single brand was posting a black square, and suddenly every single brand needed you to be political. And the models that took off that year were the ones that, you know, were using their voices. And I think that's where the industry is a little bit. You can see how fickle it is. It's like swings and roundabouts. It kind of sways with the wind depending on the political climate and what they think the audience and their customer needs. And I think our job is to kind of push back on that and stay true to ourselves. And, yeah, that's my challenge that I've given myself.
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C
We have. I knew these guys were just going to be all on fire. We're like, I've got so much dive into and we're like, running out of time. But I wanted to, like, try and wrap things up. I hope this conversation, like, carries on because, like, honestly, you guys all have so much to say. And I wanted to end by asking, you know, as from your different vantage points, you know, today we've been talking, we're in this fashion system session, and we're pondering the kind of most existential crisis of luxury and the problems that luxury faces. I wondered from your different vantage points if we can wrap this up. You know, how do you see the state of luxury today? Like, what its problems, its challenges? I guess because we've come from this perspective of being outsiders to becoming insiders and working within.
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D
Well, I think, you know, at least for me, you know, I feel like fashion and luxury are different for two different ballgames. And there's also nothing luxurious when it's just everywhere. At the end of the day, if everything's accessible, if everything is right in your face, there's nothing luxurious about that. And I feel like over the past two decades, brands have turned into mega brands and they've turned into household names and they've turned. They kind of aligned themselves into A Coca Cola or a Nike, which are so different. And there's nothing luxurious about that. For me, luxury is a completely different beast. It's something that you have to desire. And when something is so commonplace that you see it on the Internet, you see it on every celebrity, you see it on every influencer, you see it everywhere. Why would I want that? Everybody can get that, you know, so.
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C
We'Re part of the problem.
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D
We are part. Well, not necessarily, because, you know, our role is to just kind of like, communicate something. We are not the brands that kind of invest in the whole thing, you know, and at the end of the day, influencers are just, you know, for a line item on a marketing budget, spreadsheet, or communication strategy, we are, like, tiny compared to the overall thing. But, yeah, I mean, I'm still optimistic where it's all gonna go. I do believe in brands that create a sense of community and put focus on product. I'm such a huge fan of Hermes. They don't do anything with celebrities. They don't do. They don't advert. I mean, they rarely advertise. They don't have big marketing campaigns. But yet everyone, you know, their loyal fan base, they're addicts. They're like crack addicts. You know, you get your first Hermes bag, you want to get your second, and then you buy the garbage, and then next thing you know, you spent €50,000 at the boutique waiting for your third bag. It's real, you know, and it's genius because, you know, again, it's not in your face. But the fans are so loyal, you know, at that house. And I have nothing but respect for them. And the biggest mistake, I think, in the past couple of years, that a lot of luxury brands tried to kind of, like, create that model. But no one, there's no second Hermes. No one can be another Hermes.
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A
You said it. It's the craft. And I think people know that. They can see what I mean. I've been invited to go and watch the. Them sewing the bags, and I think one bag takes two days to get made, and it's the same person. Amazing. And obviously, there's a reason why those products are so expensive, because they also carry value. They're. They're rarefied.
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D
They're not rare. Well, they gatekeep it. That's the business model I need to.
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C
Try and wrap this up with woefully over time. Stuck guy. You get the closing. The closing word on luxury, you know, the guy who sells it best.
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E
Oh, my God. Okay. I think to sum it all up. Consumers are getting smarter, products are getting dumber.
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D
It's true.
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C
It's true. There we go. Short and sweet.
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E
We need to meet somewhere in between and recalibrate. And you can work with people to make your products better and you can work with people to storytell and help with that market efficiency before your customers do that for you, which is usually a bad sign for a business.
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A
But the storytelling can't be better than the product. The product is key. I think it's the efficiency.
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D
Hermes.
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C
Nice and nice. I'm sorry, Imran. I tried.
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B
I mean, we had an hour long conversation on Friday and we could have kept talking.
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C
To be continued.
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B
And we want to do a case study focused on what we can learn. Because I think these guys have like such a unique perspective on the mechanics of luxury and if we can get them to get off their marketing script and say what they really think, there's like a bank of knowledge here that I want to tap into. So thank you. So much easier to do this with you when you're sitting down. So thank you.
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E
Thank you, thank you.
- [27:54]
B
Thank you. Thanks, Susie.
- [27:57]
A
Bye.
- [28:02]
B
The bof podcast is edited and produced by olivia davies and eric brea.
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C
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- [28:54]
E
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