What Happens When Women Lead

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Business of Fashion Podcast

Episode: "What Happens When Women Lead" (December 10, 2025)

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Business of Fashion Podcast takes listeners to BoF Voices 2025 for a live debrief exploring the persistent gender gap at fashion’s highest creative levels. Host Imran Amed moderates a candid conversation with Claire Waight Keller (Givenchy, Chloé, Gucci, and now creative director at Uniqlo) and Maria Cornejo (founder of the eponymous New York label). Sheena Butler-Young, BoF Senior Correspondent, contributes probing questions about the paradoxes women face: they are fashion’s core customers and muses, yet rarely hold its chief creative roles. The panelists share personal experiences and challenge industry narratives, all while offering perspective on what’s needed for real change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Gender Disconnect in Fashion Leadership

Main Theme: Despite women shaping fashion as consumers, muses, and creatives, men dominate top creative roles.

• Statistical Paradox ([02:08] Claire Waight Keller):
  “85% of designers in graduate school are women and only 15% are men. But upon graduating, it switches quite quickly.”
• The shift starts early; many women do not progress up the creative hierarchy.
• Industry Narrative ([02:45] Claire Waight Keller):
  “Men are often seen as the implementers of big change, and women of stability… we’re often cornered into a commercial sense of aesthetic.”

2. Starting Their Own Brands: Circumventing a Broken Pipeline

• Women often start their own businesses rather than enter corporate pipelines they see as inhospitable.
  ([03:29] Sheena Butler Young):
  “They come out of grad school and they start their own brands and they don't enter the pipeline because they probably already can tell it's broken.”
• Maria Cornejo emphasizes the persistence of male-centric corporate cultures, which marginalize or undervalue women designers.

3. The Corporate Culture & Challenges of Work-Life Balance

Male-Centric Structures ([04:51] Claire Waight Keller):
“I’ve worked with predominantly men CEOs… and it’s the same equation in fragrance and beauty. It is a real challenge.”

• Women juggle dynamic personal lives, family planning, and leadership ambitions, often feeling pressure to “gain pace quickly” before having children ([05:58]).

Notable Quote
[06:11] Claire Waight Keller:
“When I was first pregnant, I was working with Tom Ford at Gucci and there was actually no maternity policy in place...I was one of the pioneers in the design team to actually set a maternity policy in place.”

4. Bias and the “Wearability” Euphemism

• Garments by women designers are often labeled “wearable” and “commercial,” not as a compliment but as a coded dismissal.
  ([07:19] Maria Cornejo):
  “When they say it's wearable, they're not meaning you can wear it and that's great. They're saying something else.”

Cornejo’s Perspective:

• She began her business out of necessity as a mother, making stylish, practical clothes for real women.
• Resists trends and Instagram-driven hype; focuses on longevity and integrity:
  ([09:30] Maria Cornejo):
  “It’s about being ageless and feeling ageless… I know I'm older but I don't feel like all of a sudden I become invisible.”

5. Building and Leading Women-First Teams

• Waight Keller makes hiring women a deliberate priority ([10:21]):
  “It's really easy. There's a lot of choice out there… so many women out there with extraordinary talent.”
• She notes that women may take longer to flourish and need safe spaces to do so—a challenge in “business environments with a lot at play.”

Proof of Concept:

• Her all-women team at Uniqlo is successful both commercially and creatively, yet few large houses have followed suit.

6. Industry Resistance and Misaligned Incentives

• Large brands focus on social media metrics, instant “Instagrammable” products, and accessories over real clothes for real women.
  ([13:22] Maria Cornejo):
  “I don't think they're looking at people like me, to be honest. They're more interested in Instagram followers and things like that... there’s a disconnect from what’s actual reality.”

7. Signs of Change & Flashpoints Ahead

• Some leadership appointments spark hope (e.g., Grace Wales Bonner at Hermès, Louise Trotter at Bottega Veneta, Sarah Burton at Givenchy).

• Still, actual parity is far off ([15:54] Claire Waight Keller):
  “Right now there's only probably about 30% of the seats held by women. I'd like to at least have it be on equal footing of 50/50.”

• Both guests see change happening in their own spheres, but widespread industry transformation requires more leaders to commit, not just a few high-profile hires.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Career Disparities
  [02:08] Claire Waight Keller:
  “85% of the designers who are in graduate school are women… but upon graduating, it switches quite quickly.”

• On Corporate Marginalization
  [03:42] Maria Cornejo:
  “The minute my partner arrived, John Richmond, it’s like I didn’t exist.”

• On Work-Life Balance and Policy Gaps
  [06:11] Claire Waight Keller:
  “When I was first pregnant, I was working with Tom Ford at Gucci and there was actually no maternity policy in place.”

• On the ‘Wearable’ Label
  [07:19] Maria Cornejo:
  “When they say it’s wearable, they’re not meaning you can wear it and that’s great. They’re saying something else.”

• On Ageless Style and Authenticity
  [09:30] Maria Cornejo:
  “It’s about being ageless and feeling ageless… I know I’m older but I don’t feel like all of a sudden I become invisible.”

• On Hiring and Nurturing Women
  [10:21] Claire Waight Keller:
  “It’s really easy [to hire women]... I think women add so much richness into the conversation of clothing.”

• On Industry Blind Spots
  [13:22] Maria Cornejo:
  “I don't think they're looking at people like me. They’re more interested in Instagram followers.”

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Key Timestamps

• [02:08] – The paradox of female fashion students vs. industry leadership
• [04:51] – Experiences of male-dominated corporate structures
• [06:11] – Lack of maternity policies and the need for structural change
• [07:19] – The coded language of “wearability” in critiques of women’s work
• [09:30] – Maria Cornejo on mature style, agelessness, and client realities
• [10:21] – Claire Waight Keller on the ease and impact of hiring women
• [13:22] – Industry’s focus on social media vs. substantive fashion offerings
• [15:54] – Signs of hope: recent appointments, but the long road to parity

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Conclusion

This episode offers a forthright, insightful look at the barriers women face in ascending to and shaping the top creative roles in fashion. Both Claire Waight Keller and Maria Cornejo illuminate systemic biases, personal coping strategies, and the promise that comes from building women-centered teams and businesses. Ultimately, the conversation affirms that while real change is possible—and even visible in a few corners of the industry—the broader path to equality requires persistence, vision, and leaders willing to transform entrenched narratives.

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Transcript

[Claire Wade Keller]

Foreign.

[Imran Amed]

Hello and welcome to the Debrief from the Business of Fashion, where each week we delve into Our most popular BoF professional stories with the correspondents who created them.

[Sheena Butler Young]

I'm senior correspondent Sheena Butler Young.

[Imran Amed]

Today, the Debrief is taking you on site and on stage at BoF Voices 2025 for a powerful conversation about what happens when women lead. Celebrated designers Claire Wade Keller and Maria Corneo joined me at the iconic soho farmhouse on the English countryside, where we explored what it has meant for them to build successful careers in an industry where the top creative roles remain overwhelmingly held by men. Wade Keller's storied resume spans Givenchy, Chloe and Gucci. And today she serves as creative director at uniqlo. Corneo's decades old New York based label counts Michelle Obama and Christy Turlington Burns among its most devoted fans. A central theme of our session, women in fashion design often wear many hats, but two are constant. They must lead the companies they build, and they must lead the way for the next generation of women who come up behind them.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Hello, everyone. Feels really good to be at my first voices and it's the 10th one ever. Very iconic. So we're talking about women in leadership design. And I kind of feel like I should start with the obvious here, which is that for decades, as Imran just spelled out, women have been the chief customer, the muse, some would say the conscience of the fashion industry, shaping fashion from end to end. Yet they've held surprisingly so few of those chief creative roles. And as the panel before us just discussed, as time goes on, this feels like it's getting harder to explain and frankly, harder to ignore.

[Claire Wade Keller]

Right.

[Sheena Butler Young]

So I want to start with the disconnect. So always the chief customer, never really the creative chief. Can both of you talk about where that disconnect begins? I'll start with you, Claire.

[Claire Wade Keller]

It's such an interesting paradox, I have to say, and I think it seems to me when I read a lot of the sort of statistics, and I think there's a recent study that sort of highlighted the fact that about 85% of the designers who are in graduate school are women and only 15% are men. But upon graduating, it switches quite quickly. And I think so. It obviously is starting quite early on in the process. And I think for me, maybe the question isn't the problem with us women.

But I think there is. There's just a narrative that shifts. And I think part of it is definitely about the fact that men are often seen as the implementers of big change, and women of Stability. And so with stability, we're often also sort of cornered into a commercial sense of aesthetic. And I'd like to disagree, but I think the other route that a lot of women often are finding their way into the industry is through starting their own brands. So, Maria, I know you can speak to this, but I think that is one of when you look at brands today, many of the women, let's say directors or creators, are actually creators of founding companies.

[Sheena Butler Young]

So they come out of grad school and they start their own brands and they don't enter the pipeline because they probably already can tell it's broken.

[Claire Wade Keller]

Yeah.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Maria, what about you? Where do you think the disconnect begins and where do you feel it's the strongest?

[Maria Corneo]

I think the disconnect is that a lot of the heads of the company are male, so they have a very misogynistic point of view towards women. To be honest, I faced that when I worked in Japan. You know, in the 80s when I was, I had a brand called Richmond Cornejo and I used to go to Japan when I was there working on my own. They were very nice to me. I worked really well. The minute my partner arrived, John Richmond, it's like I didn't exist. So I think, you know, for myself, I felt that I've always worked with male CEOs, so it's very much that culture, to be quite honest. And also women, like we make clothes for other women and our crew, so they may be less press worthy. I think they think they're less sensational because they're not as Instagrammable. We actually make real clothes and not just for Instagram. So there is that disconnect. You know, we're making clothes that people actually want to wear every day.

[Sheena Butler Young]

You know, you hinted at something that I think is interesting because Claire, you've touched so many sides of this industry. As Imran mentioned, you've worked at Chloe and Givenchy and now in mass retail at Uniqlo. How do some of those things that Maria just described show up across those tiers for you?

[Claire Wade Keller]

It's completely true. I've worked with, I think predominantly men CEOs and across the sort of sea suite area. And that not only vintages, the clothing industry, but also I worked in fragrance as well. And it's the same equation in fragrance and beauty. So it is a real challenge and I think that's part of the conversation for sure. But I do also think that women have very dynamic personal lives and I think this is a situation that is quite different for men. So as women, we know that we also have a ticking clock, as it were. I think all of us women know that. And I think that's, that's part of our thinking and rationale when we approach our careers. And certainly from my point of view, I knew I had to gain pace quickly so that once I got to the point where I felt comfortable, then I felt I could have children. Which is kind of a sad state of affairs, I suppose you could say. But I think it's the truth. And I think many women across many industries, be it in finance or in other areas, business, face the same dilemmas.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Can you walk me through what that looked like in real time? And I've heard you talk about just even going on a maternity leave and fearing what you'd come back to and if your job was still there. What does that look like in real time for you, an experience like that?

[Claire Wade Keller]

It's daunting, for sure. I mean, actually, when I was first pregnant, I was working with Tom Ford at Gucci and there was actually no maternity policy in place. So Tom was three. He was extremely generous, I have to say. Very lovely in terms of, you know, whatever you need and you know, we need you to travel less or whatever will help. But I was one of the pioneers in the design team to actually set a maternity policy in place. At the time, there wasn't one there. And so I think that's sometimes what happens is that, you know, there's a lot of young women in the workforce, but then when they get to a point where they do want to have family, they have to make a choice. Do I carry on and pursue my career aggressively or do I step out for a moment and actually spend that time with my children?

[Sheena Butler Young]

Marie, you mentioned sort of some of the euphemisms that are used to describe the garments and fashions designed by women. Things like wearable, commercial. Talk to me about how that's shown up for you along the way. And what does that say about biases? Because it's used pejoratively. When they say it's wearable, they're not meaning you can wear it. And that's great. They're saying something, they're saying something else.

[Maria Corneo]

I find it actually quite annoying because the reality is, you know, like, I started my business because I was having, I had an 8 month old and a 6 year old and I couldn't travel anymore to work for big companies. So I started my store in New York and I didn't want to wear mom jeans. I wanted to, I still wanted to be me, I wanted to wear interesting clothes in basic fabrics that I was wearing. Like Danny Mo. I was in New York, you know, Jersey, whatever it was. But it was never, you know, I think it was always, for me, it was about making interesting clothes in basic fabrics. And I don't think that's boring. That's what people actually wear every day. And to be creative in your everyday life and actually have to give you that confidence to go out into the world is actually exciting, is not boring.

[Sheena Butler Young]

How do you push back against it? Do you actually actively make it a part of your business strategy to push back against that idea that wearable is bad? Because you do have a. You have a reputation of integrity and wearability. But I think you've been successful because of it. So you must have been able to navigate that.

[Maria Corneo]

I think the proof is in the pudding. You know, it's like clients brought other clients, and I've never had to, in reality, push back. I just did my thing and I kept my head down. And I think when you work in your own little bubble, and it is a bubble, you know, I didn't have a boss. And it's not exactly we need to see, it's been 28 years. But the reality is that you do sort of go with the flow. You create your own reality. So, you know, I'm not. I never wanted to be in fashion because I never wanted to be out of fashion. I always wanted to be on the sidelines so I could still do my thing. And it wasn't about a trend or a season, which is basically the antichrist of fashion, not to do trends, you know?

[Sheena Butler Young]

Well, I love when you talk about this, because there is, I think, in the rest of fashion, this, like, model, muse fantasy. And you have a really funny way of. I'm trying to pull it out. A really funny way of talking about what the rest of the industry seems to think fashion should be. And you've said before that it really is more important for you to speak to a mature woman who actually can purchase at full price and go on.

[Maria Corneo]

Yeah, I think, you know, we have a lot of our clients that women of all ages, from 30 to 80. And the reality is creative women. And by that, I don't mean just artists. We have a ton of artists, and, you know, like, Cindy Sherman is one of our best clients. And we have people like Michelle Obama who wears the clothes. But the reality is that it's about being ageless and feeling ageless, because I don't. I mean, I know I'm older But I don't feel like all of a sudden I become invisible. I'm still me in here somewhere. And I think that's what we're trying to do with the clothing. It still needs to feel youthful.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Yeah.

[Maria Corneo]

And relevant.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Absolutely. Claire, you've done something very interesting over your career, which is that you've made it a point to hire women, which they say is one of the solutions for the issues that we're seeing. How easy is that to do and why did you decide to do that?

[Claire Wade Keller]

It's really easy. There's a lot of choice out there. I think for me, it was one of the things that I felt I could really make a difference in terms of that. And I'm also someone, because I am a mother and I have had kind of, quote, a well, long standing career at this point. I would say that I've gone through the ups and downs of having to navigate pregnancy, childhood, switching schools, moving countries. All of these things which I know are very difficult for women. And not every woman is the same. I can cope with a lot more stress than somebody else can. And so I think I'm trying to be as understanding as I can. But I really sort of try to tap into the talent more than anything. And I think there's so many women out there with extraordinary talent. And quite often because they may be a little shy or they might be less expressive, that it's not seen. And I've definitely sat in, you know, certain meetings with male colleagues where I've had to fight to get them to see that, you know, give this person a chance. She's really got talent. I really believe in her. And that that actually has come through and really resonated later. But at the time it's not obvious. And I think often women need a little more time in order to flourish and they need to feel safe in the space as well. I think it can be very challenging. A business environment, there's a lot of things at play in terms of both business and commerce, but creativity and also being relevant and also understanding the market and how things are shifting. So it's a lot of things to juggle along with your own life, which often you are the driver of your, you know, your home life as well. So navigating those two things is difficult. But I feel always that it's very easy to find talent out there in women.

[Sheena Butler Young]

And that being said, you've had this amazing career. Both of you have. You've done this. Your whole team at Uniglo is like all women. So you basically have Shown proof of concept commercially and creatively. Why do you think so few large fashion houses have followed suit? What do you think they think their reason is?

[Claire Wade Keller]

I don't know. I mean, I think it's maybe because I make it a particular mission of mine to do that. And it's not that I don't discount men either. I'm just. I will say that it's about building a rich mix and I think women add so much richness into the conversation of clothing. And I think that from my point of view, I think we offer a completely different perspective which is equally powerful and equally relevant. And I've certainly seen it through the long standing relationships I've had with some of the celebrities, actors and clients that I've worked with over the years. They still are with me today. So that stands for something.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Yeah. What about you, Maria? Why don't you think people are following the other large fashion houses are saying, look at this amazing business Marie has built. We could do something similar. What do you. What's in their head?

[Maria Corneo]

I don't think they're looking at people like me, to be honest. To what is the more interested in Instagram followers and things like that?

[Sheena Butler Young]

The big houses, where does that lead to?

[Maria Corneo]

I don't know. There's a big disconnect in the fashion business and I think that's why the fashion business is not doing that great in the whole, you know, because there is that disconnect from what's Instagram, what is social media, what is actual reality? Where is, you know, I have a team, all women, except for the accountant. And you know, and I say, well, where's our client going? You know, it's like, where is she going? I said, well, she might be getting old, but you know, I still want to look sensual. I don't, I don't want to feel like I'm dead yet, but at the same time, I don't want to feel ridiculous. But I think there is this disconnect right now between things that are very much about marketing a handbag. And they're very different types of businesses where people are just selling a handbag or a pair of glasses and then we're actually selling clothes. So there's very different models right now. Business in fashion, you know, some people are just doing a bag and a pair of socks and a cap and a wallet. Other people where women are actually all the women in New York I know who have independent business there, whether it's Rachel Comey Johnson, we've all been going about the same amount of time, 28 years, 30 years. But we're making clothes that women wear. We're not doing the handbag, you know, or the shoe, but we're selling clothes.

[Sheena Butler Young]

I want to bring it back to sort of the point at the beginning, which is that we could be at a flashpoint, like something could start to shift. What would signal you one way or the other that we're in a moment of change, that this is not just another move the needle a little bit this way and then it moves back, but that this is, we're meaningfully moving in the right direction, that women will start to have more roles. We saw an appointment at Hermes recently, Grace Wales Bonner. There are things that are happening. Do you see signs that more people, more brands will do what you two are doing?

[Maria Corneo]

You also saw Louis Trotter, a Bottega venator. There's also, you know, Sarah Burton, Givenchy. I mean, I think there needs to be more of that. I think this is great that people are realizing that, you know, the client going in the store is a woman who has the income to spend and it's not a kid who just wants a wallet with branding on it. And I think that's the difference. And I think they're beginning to realize they need a wardrobe.

[Sheena Butler Young]

From your seat at Uniqlo with your all women team that's doing amazing things, what would signal to you that more of that is to come?

[Claire Wade Keller]

I think for me it's a sort of, let's say, percentage shift. I mean, right now there's only probably about 30% of the seas held by women. So I'd like to at least have it be on equal footing of 50, 50. So I. Considering we've just had a big shift, I don't think maybe enough of those seats were sort of shifted for it to signal a big change. But I do feel positive, like you said, with Grace being at mayors and a lot of, you know, Sarah and Louise, like you mentioned, being in these positions, that sort of signal a greater message for all of us.

[Sheena Butler Young]

Well, I think you're doing what was described before us, which is you're making the change you want to see, right? Not being hopeless, but doing the work that you can do from your part of the industry. So thank you both.

[Imran Amed]

Thank you.

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[Maria Corneo]

So good, so good, so good.

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[Maria Corneo]

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[Sheena Butler Young]

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[Claire Wade Keller]

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