← The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast
Breaking Mental Strongholds: A Conversation with Louie Giglio, Jennie Allen, and Craig Groeschel
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- [00:01]
Jenny Allen
The art of leadership network.
- [00:07]
Carrie Newhoff
Welcome to the Carrie Newhoff Leadership Podcast special edition. And, well, you know, our mission around here is to help you thrive in life and leadership. So recently I sat down with Louis Giglio, Craig Groeschel, and Jenny Allen. Louis had asked me to host a conversation between the three of them for his podcast for Passion City Church's platforms and everything they do at Passion. And I gotta tell you, this was just so good. I thought, I want to bring this conversation to everybody who listens to my show. So we sat down and what I appreciate about the three of them, I mean, there's a long list, but Jenny Craig and Louis have really opened up about their own personal struggle. And it's easy to admire people from afar. Maybe you've been to Passion Conference or if gathering or Life Church or the Global Leadership Summit and you think, oh, I wish I could be a strong resilient as they are. And then one of the scripts that always played in my mind when I was a younger leader is, oh, I bet they don't struggle with what I do. Well, the thing about Louis and Jenny and Craig is that they've really opened up over the last seven or eight years about the struggles that they have had, the struggles that almost took them out. And this is something that's becoming a bit of a mission for me. I want to keep you in ministry, in the game of life much longer, much healthier, and conversations like this really opened up the way. So thanks to Louis and the team at Passion for letting us share this on our feed. But here is my conversation with Louis Giglio, Jenny Allen and Craig Groeschel. Well, welcome to a very special episode of the podcast. My name is Carrie Newhoff. Not the typical host, but really honored to have been invited by Pastor Louis to come on and have a conversation with Louis Giglio, Jenny Allen and Craig Groeschel today. And we're talking about mental health and the church. It's the fifth anniversary of this amazing book, Don't Give the Enemy a seat at your Table. It was five years ago that it came out. And when it came out, Louis, you invited Jenny and Craig to your podcast to have a special event to talk about their books, which had also surfaced mental health issues in the church. And so a lot of the content that you're hearing today, Jenny's got a couple of books, one very recently called the Lie you Don't Know youw Believe, and her classic book, get out of youf Head. And then of course, Craig in I think it was 2018 or so released Winning the War in youn Mind. And then very recently released this book, Heal youl hurting mind with Dr. Wayne Chappelle, a co authorship. So I really appreciate how all three of you have contributed to the mental health conversation in the church. And you're leading at the very highest levels in the church right now in each of your fields. And I'm really grateful. So, Craig, I. I'd love for you to sort of catch us up. Over the last five, since this group last convened, what has the journey for mental health looked like for you?
- [03:08]
Craig Groeschel
Well, first of all, I can't believe it's been five years. Right? Yeah, it's just time goes by so fast and in so many ways I've become just more aware of the depth and breadth of problems that people are having with mental health. And, and you know, I talked about it before with you guys, but I had kind of my first real stumble mentally and emotionally back in 2019. And so that took me to a place that I'd never been firsthand. And being there firsthand just gave me a deeper love and compassion for people that are there. And so it's interesting about that same time, you know, Louie was going through just some stuff and wrote about it. Jenny's been, you know, everybody's been through some stuff. Jenny wrote about it. And I'm just really thankful now that it's a conversation that's more common in church circles and we're seeing, I think, not just a practical approach to improving your mental health, but a true Christ centered approach to renewing your mind and functioning according to the power of the spirit. And so I'm both aware of the depth and breadth of the challenges which are everywhere in conversations I'm having. And I'm also optimistic about the spiritual progress that we're making and we'll make around conversations like this.
- [04:32]
Louis Giglio
Yeah.
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Carrie Newhoff
Would you say, Craig, when you look over the last, say five years, even since winning the war in your mind came out? I think all of us wish it was a once and done. It's like, oh, I had that dark period. But is it more like a daily tension? And if so, what does that surfaced for you over the last five years? Like what would the current battles be?
- [04:51]
Craig Groeschel
Oh, if you're talking personally, I would say that I just became more familiar with and skilled at using what I'd call both the practical and kind of spiritual tools to function with any kind of challenges. So now I don't have big, big setbacks. But if I have a little setback, I go, okay, I know what to do, and here's how to approach it. And so it's kind of like, I think, in other areas of your life, when you. When you find the principles that work, then it's just a matter of applying them. And so I have not had any real significant challenges, like 2019 at all, and just kind of continue to work on keeping my mind renewed, focused on the right things. And if I see any kind of blips of anxiety, tension, overwhelm, I immediately know what to do. And if I don't, my wife will remind me, like, remember last time? And I'm seeing those signs. And so I think a little bit of it is just recognizing the signs early and then knowing what to do has been really helpful. And so I'm not going to say every day is always smooth sailing, because that's just not true. But I would say is that every day I'm better equipped to recognize early any kind of warning signs and apply the things that help.
- [06:07]
Carrie Newhoff
Yeah. Jenny, how about you? I mean, this is an ongoing thing. I mean, we're recording this on a really big day. You're doing another campus tonight. You're gonna likely see hundreds, thousands of students respond to the gospel and the enemy doesn't like. What has it been like for you over the last few years in terms of the battle, the lies that you're dealing with?
- [06:31]
Jenny Allen
Yeah, it's interesting. When I set out to write my last book, which was the lie you don't know you believe, I did feel very strong. I've been in counseling for many years. I feel like these tools have worked just like Craig said. But I think one component that Louis was very clear about in his title, which I appreciate, is there's an enemy. And I think when I went to attack something as core to his scheme as the lie that the core lies that we've believed since childhood, it probably was, yeah, probably not his favorite. The Enemy didn't like it much. And so I just felt bombarded again with things that, honestly, I haven't struggled with in a few years. And so as I worked on this book, it was just so ironic. And I knew the irony. And yet still, I would constantly have to share with others. This is. This is what I'm feeling. This is what I'm believing today. So I really had to practice what I was writing about throughout the whole process. And I'll be honest, I'm not sad that book is over. That book. I don't know, Louis. I'd love to hear your view on it when you write directly about the devil and the enemy. I feel like those are my hardest projects in every way. They're the most opposed. And so I'm not sad it's over. But I will say what I've come to view it as now is an invitation. So when I feel old, lies come back up that I, you know, because a lot of mine were that I felt like I had to hit marks to measure up. And that's just not the gospel, but it is the way the world works. And I'm in a world, you know, even though the world word Christian is on it, the publishing industry, there are certainly marks that all of us, you know, everybody hopes that will hit. And so there is a reality to it, but there. There is not my identity tied up into it. And so therefore, when I feel those things that I can tend to point back to in my childhood, I get to stop and go, okay, this is an invitation for me to remember the kingdom of God, that this is not the world I play in, that. That I actually have one where. Where performance is. Is not supreme, and that I'm loved and accepted completely. And it's just, you know, it's an invitation just to remember what we all know is true.
- [08:46]
Carrie Newhoff
So, Louis, five years is a long time, and a short time, it's a heartbeat. What. What does the journey look like for you? Years since don't give the enemy a seat at your table was released. Like, he just went away, I guess. Right.
- [09:02]
Louis Giglio
Well, you know, it's interesting. I. You know, if you don't know my story and you're just joining in with us in 2008, I fell in a hole that I didn't know existed. And unlike, I mean, like, what Craig was saying, I didn't know that side of life. I had heard of people talk about depression, crippling, anxiety, but I. I just fell into the darkness. And when I say fell into it, I was incapacitated for months. It just. Fear, it just threw me into a heap in the corner. I mean, literally a heap in the corner. And honestly, Carrie, I don't know how I got into it completely, and I don't know how I got out of it completely. I do know that worship played a big part of me getting out of it in time. But in the middle of it, I had what's called the fear of death syndrome. It actually has a name. I'm writing a book on fear right now. And the fear of death is a thing. And a friend of mine was coaching me, a doctor was coaching me through these months of recovery. And the thing about the fear of death syndrome is you can't tell someone they have it and just say, hey, you're not going to die. You just need to get over it. That you have to go through the whole process. And the process is you go to the doctor thinking you have a brain tumor because you have a symptom that you think you have, but then you don't have a brain tumor. So check that box. And the anxiety goes down a little bit. Then you do that to the next doctor. The next doctor. The next doctor, the next doctor. And so for me, five years later, after writing the book and all these Years later, since 2008, I. The tool is the truth. And here's one of the big lies the enemy brings to me. You're not going to make it. You're not going to make it through this season, through this battle, through this circumstance. You're not going to make it. But when I hear that, I know that's a lie, because God would never tell me that. My father would never tell me that. In fact, he told me the opposite. He said, we're going through the valley of the shadow of death, not to the valley of the shadow of death. And so when the anxiety starts coming, and it does, and I think it's important for people to hear me say that my anxiety struggle didn't go away when I wrote this book. It didn't go away in 2008, 2009, when I came out of the darkness back into the light. I would have never envisioned Carrie in 2008, never in my wildest dream. Sitting on this podcast today because you
- [11:44]
Carrie Newhoff
thought it was over.
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Louis Giglio
Oh, there's. There's no way I could see me in my right mind doing something like this. And so I'm a survivor. But it's still in the story. The anxiety is still in the story. But on that one particular case, when it does start creeping up, I have an answer. And I'm. I love saying it. I say, guess what? I'm not going to die. I know it felt like I was, and it might feel like I am again, but guess what? I'm not going to die. And that just immediately, that truth immediately begins to reset the table. And so five years later, I'm still here. By the grace of God, that is the only reason I'm here. And I'm here as a survivor to tell anybody who feels like you're in a place all by yourself and that you're not going to make it, that you are going to make it by the Grace of God and his grace is enough for us.
- [12:40]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, it was 20 years ago this year that I was in the hole that I thought I would never get out of. It was 2006 and I hit burnout. And, you know, we're telling your stories today, but as somebody who can empathize with that, and I was in the place where I thought, it's over. I'm 40 and I'm done. And if you had said to me, hey, 20 years from now, you're going to be sitting down with some people you don't know yet, but they're going to become friends and they're going to become colleagues in your work, and this is what I'm going to do with your life. I never would have guessed, I would have said, that's crazy. That's insane. But I also learned this in that season that you're most tempted to quit moments before your critical breakthrough. That often it can happen. You know, Jenny, it happened for you after gather 25, where it just about all unraveled again. And the enemy is relentless that way. One of the temptations, I think we all feel, is to put it in the rearview mirror, to focus on the positive and to never talk about it. Can you talk about whether that was a temptation for you? Like, I'm definitely not going to write a book about this. I'm not going to give a talk at the Gls about this. I'm not. I'm not going to talk about this. I'm going to put this in my rearview mirror. I'm going to move on because I'm a positive person. Like, what was the temptation around you? Just to stuff it and leave it. And then why did you decide, now I got to talk about this?
- [14:08]
Louis Giglio
I'll jump in and just say that coming out of that season, not too long after, maybe six months or so, I went on a tour. I'd been doing these tours with Chris Tomlin, and these were arena size tours. We were playing at every basketball arena in America. And I shaped my talk around falling in that hole and around how worship was powerful enough to lead me out. And I. Every night I would say, the last thing a man wants to do is to talk about how weak they are or how much of a calamity they were in. But I'm telling you, Carrie, the last thing people expected, and this is 2009, so this is a while back, 2010, the last thing they expected at a worship night in a basketball arena in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, was for the guy that was the speaker to Walk out on the stage and talk about having a nervous breakdown. And that's what happened to me. We don't call it that anymore because that sounds pejorative and we don't like pejorative terms. But. But we would call it an anxiety attack or a panic attack, but I had a complete breakdown. And when I would walk out and say that to people, it was just like, whoa. But what I found that it was doing is it was. It was bringing me back to the place of humility and trust. And that's where freedom is. That's where power is. Power is in humility, and humility is in honesty, and honesty comes out and vulnerability. And so to stand there every night was doing something to keep healing me. But, wow, the other side of that was. I mean, there would be a line of people, if you let them line up a mile long, to say, I cannot believe you are talking about this. I can't believe you said that out loud in front of all these people. Because my wife, my daughter, me, my co worker, my neighbor, I didn't realize that the world is struggling with mental health, not just a few people.
- [16:19]
Carrie Newhoff
Jenny, for you, what. What made you. I mean, you're always so transparent in your writing. I. I remember the book on find you'd people. You had like a friendship collapse that happened before that happened. But what made you decide that this is going to be a big part of my ministry, not just preaching the word, but like talking about the interior journey.
- [16:41]
Jenny Allen
Yeah. I think I just desperately want people not to feel alone. When tonight, when we start Unite. Tonya, Usually we'll get up in front of everybody and just say, how many of you struggle with loneliness? How many of you struggle with anxiety? And the entire stadium will raise their phones and say them. And so there's just a reality right now that one of the greatest things we can do that actually heals our mind is to know that we're not alone. So it's interesting. You can go through something very traumatic. For instance, Band of Brothers, that movie, you're just thinking, okay, people that lived through that war, how did they make it? How did they come out with any sanity at all? And what they will tell you, my husband's grandfather was in that war and just passed away not long ago after the age of 100. And he would say it was the camaraderie you felt. So if you can walk through difficulty, no matter how tragic it is, and not feel alone, then you can survive. The problem is we can't walk through anything, any amount of Stress or trauma alone, or it becomes traumatic. And so what's happened in our generation is people are so isolated because of social media, because of the things that are supposed to connect us and we think will connect us. We actually end up more alone. And so, for me, it's just a conviction of waving my hand and being like, it's not just you. I mean, I just think this is why this podcast is so powerful. I mean, Craig, Louie, Carrie, y' all are some of the greatest leaders on planet Earth for the gospel. And all of you are saying that you have struggled with this. That is freeing for people, that makes people not feel crazy. And I look at my husband, he walked through depression, two different bouts of it. And when you're in that place where the pit is so deep and so dark, you need somebody that says, I've been there and it's going to be okay. In fact, that was the line that someone said to my husband that he said got him through. And he kept thinking about it like, I'm going to be okay. I'm going to be okay. Because in his own mind, in the darkness, it feels like you're not. Which is why suicidal ideation is on the rise, which is why, you know, anxiety is so high, because everyone thinks they're not gonna be okay and that they're the only one. And that's just so sad. I feel like that's heartbreaking.
- [19:04]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, you know, your journey has an impact on everybody around you. And often you can stand up in front of thousands of people or a college stadium and give a 10 out of 10 or a 9 out of 10, talk like you can do it, but on the inside, you're dying. And I think you reach a certain point at which, you know, you have enough muscle memory that that's possible. But what was the impact of those really dark seasons on the people closest to you? What. What impact did that have on your family, on your team, your spouse, your marriages? Like, how. What was that impact like? Because I think often a spouse will bear a silent burden that the public doesn't even have a clue they're bearing. What did that dynamic look like in your family when you were down?
- [19:57]
Louis Giglio
Well, I know for me, you know, Shelley was a rock, and I'm not really sure how she did it, but she's been a rock for as long as I've known her. She has supernatural grace on her life, but I think it. It really impacted her in a different way, but as much as it did me. And the interesting part is that, you know, I Didn't really see it coming, but she did. And. And a lot of people around me did, you know, and we did a world tour that year. We did events in 17 cities in 16 countries, and big events all year long in little spurts. And it was a year of a lot of different difficulty like that. Shelly's back. Went out in Sydney on the last event. Couldn't get her home. My mom was deteriorating quickly with Parkinson's. We were living in a house half renovated that was all torn up, and we were planning a church. And that was the thing at the end of the day, that pushed. Pushed me over, you know, and. But she was a rock. And I think what it did for the people around me, if it may be good Way Carrie, was it showed them that I was a, you know, broken man. And for some of them, their whole life in adolescence, I'd been a hero to them. But now they saw that the hero had a limp and was real and could crack. We. I'll say this real fast, but we were going to a home group meeting for our church. There were only 20 of us at the time, and we were headed to these people's house. And I am in shambles. I am in the passenger seat shaking, and I'm saying to Shelley, babe, I can't let them see me like this. I can't go to this thing tonight. And she said, we're going. So I am holding on for dear life till we get to these people's house. And they're dear friends of mine now. Walk into their den, sits down, and I say to the people sitting there, I am your pastor, and I am a mess. And I think something just broke for all of us, like, well, good to know, because we're all fighting against something, and we all need the grace of God. And I think it did kind of bring a unity of heart in that time that was much needed
- [22:31]
Carrie Newhoff
impact on the people closest to you. Any other thoughts on that before we move on?
- [22:36]
Craig Groeschel
I would say, Carrie, for us, what we discovered is that the people around me were a really strategic and spiritual part of the healing process. And so we both worked with the same coach or therapist, counselor, whatever you call him, Dr. Chappell. And, yeah, so Dr. C, what he did is he brought in, he called them my wingman. We should say wing people, because a lot of them were female around me. But he brought Amy in and the people from my office and my close friends and basically put a support team around me and. And one was helped give me language to tell them what I was feeling because I was not very good at expression and then helped interpret it to them. And so if I would just say something like, I'm not doing well. He kind of trained Amy to hear, that's a level 9 or 9.5 alarm. Because I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to break down.
- [23:25]
Carrie Newhoff
Are you a minimizer, Craig? Like, you would be like, yeah, it's a bit of a tough day. Meanwhile, not even that.
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Craig Groeschel
I just wouldn't. Just wouldn't express it.
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Jenny Allen
Just.
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Craig Groeschel
It's not even like a minimizer. It's just like, I really genuinely, I think because of the way I was raised, I didn't know how to ask for help, receive help, or even express need. And so it was learning how to express need and then training the people around me. For example, I was working myself into the ground. And then with six kids, we were busy every single night. Louie is touring the world. I'm touring the neighborhood down the street with all my kids. It was my deal. And so it was literally like saying, hey, we have to have a night off where we don't have something. And Amy would be like, well, that's not work. That's family. Well, actually, it's something. And so it was training the people around me to help create some boundaries that would be helpful. And we did a lot of training on what kind of recovery time is best, what kind of family time is best, when we recover, how do you recover, where do you recover, who are you with? And so it was kind of like learning a new sport. How do we as a community live in a way that's spiritually honoring to God? And so it wasn't just me healing, but it was our, you know, my support network learning a better way of doing life. And that was. I just so grateful for every person that was a part of that. And not only did it help me, but it helped drive more intimate relationships and strengthen us. And it, you know, sounds like a big happy. It was actually a lot of work, very painful. But it's, you know, if you are in a place right now that you are not doing well, the odds of you doing well on your own are very, very low. Because we never become our best version of ourselves by ourselves. We heal best in community. And so it's the people God put around you are the ones that are going to help you make the right decisions and sustain the right godly decision. So don't. Don't try to do it alone.
- [25:17]
Carrie Newhoff
You know, it's so interesting, Jenny, you had mentioned that A friend had said to Zach when he was struggling, just a simple word like, you're going to get through this. I had a friend call me, this is 20 years ago. And he just said. It was a short phone call. He just said, sun's going to rise again, Carrie. And man, I'll tell you, I still get emotional thinking about that. And that was such a simple thing. But that was the only ray of light I had that day in the darkness. And it's so powerful. So if you're hearing this and you know somebody, be that friend, shoot them a text, let them know you prayed for them. You're encouraging them. All of that. Jenny, I want to switch it up because you and Louis have both written about lies. And what are some lies you think the enemy is peddling in 2026 if you don't want to give him a seat at the table?
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Jenny Allen
Oh, so many. But what Psych 101 will tell us is they all boil down to three that exist in our own minds about ourselves. So I am worthless. I'm helpless, and I'm unlovable. And these are core lies that we don't notice. We're thinking because we picked them up when we were really young. So you might have been five years old and your dad walked out the door and you picked up that, you know what? I'm expendable. I don't matter. I'm worthless. He wouldn't stay for me. And you start to build a narrative around your life that really latches on and stays and hangs around for a long time. And so I think one thing I've learned is just that to be so gracious to the parts of us that. That tend to believe these things because they're. I mean, it's terrorist activity. Like, the enemy at the table is mean. He's horrible. He's coming for kids. Like, he. Most people can point to an age below the age of 12 years old that they first believed a lie, which means that they were targeted in horrible way, evil way, to believe something that would go on and shape their entire identity. And so it feels. Yeah, it feels hard. And I think back to the Ephesians verse, it says, we don't war against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against dark cosmic forces that we know. In another verse that says that seek to kill, steal and destroy us. So, you know, I don't mean to make everything about the devil, but I do think that he's playing a big part of it. And we know that his nature and his native language is to lie. And so I love Louis that you put him right in the title, because it's like, yeah, that's what we're doing. And I think when people realize that, it helps fight differently. Rather than you're fighting against yourself or your parents or something that happened to you, it's like, no, there was a plan, and it was for you to be in bondage. And it began a really long time ago.
- [28:02]
Carrie Newhoff
I'm curious to the extent that you're comfortable like Louie and Craig. Jenny, you wrote a whole book about it. The lie you don't know you believe. When you. You were 12, you know, you. You felt just this overwhelming sense of unworthiness and that you would never measure up. And there's three key lies. But Lou and Craig. And I mean, for me, it was performance equals love, that if I'm going to be loved, I have to perform. There's a bar and it always moves. And I mean, God can use that, but the enemy can be very negative around that to the point where I'm never satisfied and I still don't feel love, no matter what, how great it goes. And I've made some progress in that, but, like, it continues to be something that I have to refute. Louie and Craig, would you say that there was a lie that that sort of embedded itself in your life at one point or another?
- [28:49]
Louis Giglio
Yeah, I think to put. Maybe just to frame it a different way, when I finally could look back and see why I ended up in that hole. I know that there were two last hands on my back, and one of them was the need for control, and the other one was the need for. Of. For people's. Of people's approval or need for people's approval. And I couldn't label those before because I was leading a global movement and we had a very small team and we were all very close, like family. And then we would go off and the Lord would do these things, these impactful events, and that we'd come back to our little, small family, and I didn't have to face some of my weaknesses because we were just out everywhere doing these things. But when you plant a local church, the game changes. And all of a sudden you have a mirror around you the whole time. And Shelly and I were in bed before I had this collapse, but she's really struggling with her back. And we got an email and she read it to me on her laptop. And it was from a friend of ours who was in this venture with us and not anybody that anyone would know on this. Listening to this podcast, but just one of the people that was helping lead this church, and they shot a torpedo across the bow. Don't you ever do that. If that's the way this is going to go on, on, on. And I mean, it crashed into my, you know, wonderful picture of what church planting was going to be like. And we looked at each other and we're just like, oh, my goodness, if. If this is what this is going to be, you know, we're not interested. Well, what I learned in time was that I had a hand on my back called the need for people's approval that was stronger than I thought it was. And this other hand over here that said, I need to be in control. And then God called me to something that if you want to be in control, do not plant a local church. If you want people's approval, do not
- [31:07]
Carrie Newhoff
plant a local church.
- [31:10]
Louis Giglio
And I realized I'd gotten in the wrong business for my two kind of lies slash inappropriate needs that I had in my life. And I've had to come face to face with those. And I've had to learn to navigate around the fact that I'm not in control. I've never been in control. Actually, even when I thought I was in control, I wasn't in control. And I've had to really, really learn. And this is the place I think God's helped me the most. I've had to learn that it's not about me. If it is about me, I want to know it and I want to change. But most of the time, the negativity, it really isn't about me. And I've just gone to hide away in the cross, hide away in the love of God, hide away in my new identity in Christ. And to learn that that cross is a shield for every disapproval, and it is really the only true approval that a human is ever going to receive.
- [32:12]
Carrie Newhoff
Talk about alarm bells. I mean, I think we are all, it sounds like, blindsided at one point or another. Craig, you were thinking, I got this, I got this until you didn't have it. Jenny, similar thing, right? You're on top of the world and then all of a sudden, here we are. And Louis, you were blindsided by that as well. But, you know, hindsight's 20 20, so when you're looking forward and I'm thinking about the people watching this, the people listening to this, what are some alarm bells that when you hear them go off, you're like, o, hang on, I gotta take those preventative measures you've all talked about, because I think A lot of us, the first and sometimes second or third time, we just think we're invincible until we're not, and we're. So what do you look for in terms of alarm bells first?
- [32:58]
Craig Groeschel
I just. I appreciate Louie's just transparency through the process, and the language that he puts around his story gives me strength. But as far as, like, the alarms, I would put them on kind of three different levels. Kerry. First, the ones I ignored early on were the voices around me that would say, hey, you need to slow down, you need to take a break, you're going too hard. And what I found is those are. They're actually people. When more than one person who loves you tells you something, you really should listen. And so that was kind of the first layer that I didn't. The second alarms would have been kind of my own internal voices saying, this might be too much, you may not be able to keep this up. And I ignored those. And then the ones. If you ignore those first two layers, that's when your body takes over and says, okay, now you can't go on. You know, now you're. It's just too much. And so I would say, let's start with the first. That anytime people around you who love you are trying to say, you know, I see something in you that you might want to address, or this could be a problem, or, you know, let's deal with this, let's talk about it, let's pray about it, let's start and listen there. Also listen to the internal voices whenever you're saying things that are directly contrary to God's word in your mind, over and over again. It could be I'm not lovable. It could be I can't ever change. I'm not always gonna be this way. I'm just stuck, you know, I'm nothing, I'm worthless. It's better. Not that my life's worth not living. I don't have a life. Whatever it is, when you hear yourself telling yourself something that is not consistent with God's word, that's an alarm. And pay attention to that. And if for some reason you miss those and your body starts kicking back, you can't sleep, you've got anxiety, you're dealing with depression, you've got thoughts of self harm, by all means, bells, whistles, alarms, stop. Ask for help, reach out, don't be ashamed of it. I always say you're only as strong as you are honest. You have to be honest. And asking for help is not a sign of weakness. It's a sign of Wisdom and so ask for help. And so I'd look for those different things. And if you're wise, you'll let the first layer get your attention and don't let it escalate until it's too much.
- [35:12]
Carrie Newhoff
Jenny, what are your alarm bells?
- [35:14]
Jenny Allen
Like I was just thinking, for me, it's my body. So sometimes I'll notice my shoulders are up high, my jaw, I've clenched it, I'll have sometimes pain in my chest. So those will be usually the first signs that I need to pay attention to something. And that's, you know, now it's so great because I can pay attention to it really quickly because I've learned and you know, I just think the body's amazing thing that God gave us emotion, he gave us our bodies to send signals and to warn us. And I would say the first thing I do is to say it out loud to the Lord and to say it out loud to people as quickly as I can. And it's just amazing. Amazing how because now I keep very short accounts in my life, things that make me anxious. I'm in community probably about twice a week with people that I could say anything to. And that's pretty unbelievable that I have that. I feel really proud of that. That's been something I've worked really hard at and that has just brought so much healing to my mind and to my perspective in life. I just, I feel that, you know, there, there is somebody that I'm going to say it out loud if it is bothering me for more than 48 hours and, and that helps a lot.
- [36:32]
Louis Giglio
Along the same lines as Jenny, it's, there's some physical things that I can very quickly tell if things have escalated on the anxiety side, I won't go into what all those are, but I can, you know, I can. I'll tell you what simple one, I can clench my teeth and relax my face and if there's a certain frequency that happens, then things are above the red line. And so you have to take action immediately. But I think part of it too is what Craig was saying. It's self introspection and it's examining ourselves. And I just spent a lot of life ignoring myself, not examining myself. And I think that to ask the question, you know, I went through a little dip a couple years ago, maybe a year and a half ago, and I would just call it a low season. I don't know if maybe I was in a little bit of a depressive state. But all of a sudden instead of just ignoring me, I examined Me. And I realized I'm not talking to anybody. My 10 closest friends haven't heard from me this year. And I thought to myself, because it had happened to me in reverse and I knew how much it hurt me to know that this certain friend of mine hadn't reached out to me in a while. I thought, did I say something wrong? Did I do something wrong? What happened here? And then I went, oh, my word. I haven't talked to so and so in nine months. I haven't talked to so and so in a year. And I just started calling people. I just. 12 people I had to call and say, I am so sorry I haven't reached out to you. It is not you. You didn't do anything. You didn't make me mad. I'm just in a low season and I just looked in the mirror and realized it's me. And every one of those conversations led to either, wow, thanks for telling me that I've been in a low season, or we're going to start trading messages in bottles. And we trade long voice text once a week by guys that live hundreds of miles away from me. And they tell me in detail what's going on in their life. And I tell them in detail what's going on in my life. And so it's just, don't ignore, examine, look around, how am I doing? And that's when you can set that first layer of alarm off before the physical things kick in like Craig's talking about, that you have to take immediate action.
- [39:03]
Carrie Newhoff
I think isolation is a tool of the enemy. You know, solitude's a gift from God. It's a good spiritual discipline. But isolation, that's where the enemy thrives. Well, as we wrap up, is there anything we haven't talked about, a question I haven't asked or a thought that's on your heart that you haven't shared that you want to share to encourage the people who are watching and listening to this. Jenny, how about you?
- [39:31]
Jenny Allen
Well, I can just imagine the people that love people that are depressed or anxious right now. And I've been that person too with my husband. And I just want to say to you that it is really hard. It's really lonely. And I think that, you know, honestly, watching my husband struggle with mental health has been off the charts harder than my own struggles. And so I just wanna say that you aren't crazy and that you are loving that person by trying to get them help. And we can't control that person. Right. We learned that, that you gotta take care of your side of the street. But you can be the one that waves your arms, you can be the one that says, hey, something's just not right. And I think that that is a scary, lonely place and you need support too. I think one thing I felt with Zach as a pastor was I can't tell because people will, you know, everybody knows him in our community and that's gonna be harmful. But I could have found someone that was safe to help and to process because I was going through a lot too. So I think it's important for those that have kind of found this because they're worried about someone.
- [40:43]
Craig Groeschel
I think, again, I just wanna highlight the importance of the body of Christ in community. You know, we think about Jenny, you're doing such a great job, you know, kind of helping people confess their sins. And we know if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleans. And so we confess to God for cleansing. A lot of times people forget the James text that says, confess your sins to one another and pray for each other that you may be healed. And so we confess to God for forgiveness, but we confess to the body of Christ for healing. And so I would just say to any of you right now that are in a dark place, you know, number one, you're not alone. But two is that the church, I believe a healthy, Christ centered church is the best place to heal. And there's a lot of people today that have experienced church hurt. And I want to just acknowledge that's a real thing. But if you have experienced church hurt, I would also encourage you to experience church healing that, you know, learning to forgive in community and go back to communion, learning to trust again is a real important part of healing. And so if you are hurt, you don't have to stay in the hurt, that there's healing in the family of God. And I would just, I would encourage you just to seek that out. Give the body of Christ a chance to do what she does. Confess to God for forgiveness, confess to people for healing. And I just believe in the presence of God with his people, you will find healing.
- [42:09]
Louis Giglio
Yeah, I just. Hey Kerry, I want to say thank you. You were talking about 20 years ago and you were a forerunner for me, someone who talked out loud about burning out. And Craig and Jenny both were forerunners in writing in this space and it really set an example for so many people and I'm one of them. So thank you to each one of you for being a leader in shining light on this path. I want to echo what Ginny has said twice because it became, I think, my main phrase coming out of all this. You're not crazy. Because I was. And you know I'm not. This isn't hyperbole. We're talking about life and death here. When I was in this hole, I thought I had gone crazy. That's a scary place to be. And I just wanted to say to anybody who is struggling, you are not crazy. There may be crazy in it. There was a lot of crazy in mine, but I wasn't crazy. And I just want to echo what Jenny is saying. You are not alone. You're not the only person who's in this. And you are not crazy. Even if there's crazy in it, you're not crazy. And I think, secondly, the last thing I would, I guess, Carrie, want to leave people, is that there's a great king. He's almost beyond comprehension. How wonderful he is. And he has prepared a table for you. He wants to sit with you. And the place that he prepared it is the most unlikely place. He prepared the table in the presence of your enemies, not in the absence of your enemies. In the presence of your enemies. If I had written Psalm 23, I'd have written it. He prepares a table for me with a ringside seat so I can watch him destroy all my enemies. But he puts the table in the middle of the fight. Why did he do that? Why did he do that? He did that so that my enemies. And when I say enemies, I'm not necessarily meaning that person and that person. I'm meaning circumstances, the darkness, the diagnosis, the situation, the calamity of our world. He put the table in the presence of the enemy so that the enemies could watch our. Our faces, be satisfied by the one who's sitting at the table. Psalm 34. David wrote, in the cave in Adullam, on the run, under pressure, under fire. In the dark cave at Adullam, Hugh wrote, he delivers me from all of my fears. And then he said, those who look to the Lord are radiant. Their faces are never covered with shame. So he put me in the presence so my enemies could see on my face that my God is greater. And so, ultimately, I just want to encourage you. God's going to use the darkness, the hardship, the difficulty, the journey, the process, not only to bring you healing, but he's going to use it to bring himself glory in the end. And all of us today have a story to tell, and it is of the goodness of God.
- [45:59]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, it's the fifth anniversary of don't give the enemy A seat at your table. Thank you so much. I mean, each of you has gone first, Jenny, your most recent book, the Lie you don't Know you Believe. And then Craig, several works, but the latest with Dr. C. Heal youl Hurting Mind. Just really practical resources. And I want to say one thing I admire about each of you is you're in the arena. You are in the battle. Like this is your foot's on the gas, not on the brake. Even though you've been in ministry, each of you, for decades. And you're showing us not just by having been vulnerable in the past, but by continuing to be vulnerable in the presence present and to share your story, you're giving us all hope. And I need that hope. I've got my foot on the gas pedal. The enemy keeps chipping away. And I think what conversations like this do is they give everybody watching, everybody listening hope. A, you're not alone. This is not unique. In this life, you will have your troubles and the Lord is on your side. He really is. And the enemy isn't going to win unless we give in. And so thank you to each of you for not giving in. I really appreciate it and for leading the rest of us as we try to figure out how to keep going and stay strong in leadership. So it is a fifth anniversary of Louis book, Don't give the enemy a seat at your table. There's going to be some key takeaways. Our team's going to sit down, they're going to figure out what are the key action points. And then we've also got a reflection guide that is going to be available for download with the show notes. So to each of you, Craig, Jenny, Louie, thank you so much for the conversation.
- [47:42]
Craig Groeschel
Love you.
- [47:43]
Carrie Newhoff
Well, I found that one really meaningful. And if you want to get their books, everything's available in the show notes. You can find it there. And I hope this encourages you. I hope this helps you realize that you know what you go through the dark night of the soul and then sometimes it comes back. I mean, I had a really difficult 2024 and 2025, one just for circumstances, external stressors. And then last year I found myself in a hospital bed at the end of April and had the biggest health scare incident of my life. And by the grace of God, I'm fine. But like, you just gotta come through this, right? So if you're in a tough season, hang in there, get the help you need. If you're feeling great right now, awesome. But don't be surprised if there's a little blip along the road. And we want to get you everything on this podcast to help you thrive. To be fresh and celebrating 20, 30, 40 years down the road. That's sort of my heartbeat. So fun thing about when you subscribe to an episode is you'll find little bonus Easter eggs from time to time. I don't think we even sent out an email about this one, so if you're a subscriber or you just discovered this accidentally through the algorithm, really glad. Welcome. To those of you who are new, make sure you hit the the follow button wherever you're watching or listening. And thank you to Craig, to Jenny, and to Louie for being so transparent. Hey, we'll be back to our regularly scheduled programming soon. Thanks for listening, and I hope our time together today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing.