CNLP 703 | Noah Herrin on High Growth Church Planting, Leading with Community over Content, and How a Church With An Average Age of 25 Got Started

Summary

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Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: The Carey Nieuwhof Leadership Podcast

Host: Carey Nieuwhof (Art of Leadership Network)
Episode: CNLP 703 | Noah Herrin on High Growth Church Planting, Leading with Community over Content, and How a Church With An Average Age of 25 Got Started
Guest: Noah Herrin, Founding and Lead Pastor of Way Church, Nashville
Release Date: January 14, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, in-depth conversation with Noah Herrin, the young founding pastor of Way Church in Nashville, Tennessee—one of the fastest-growing new churches in America, with an average attendee age of 25. Host Carey Nieuwhof explores how Way Church skyrocketed from zero to 700+ in just 14 months by prioritizing "community over content," embracing scrappy entrepreneurship, and tackling the loneliness epidemic. Listeners looking to understand next-gen church planting, crafting intentionally relational ministry models, and leading through rapid change will find a wealth of fresh insights.

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Major Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Influences & Foundations in Church Planting (03:01–12:20)

• Entrepreneurial & Resourceful Beginnings

  • Noah’s upbringing as a pastor’s kid normalized "scrappiness": paying his own way since 18 (03:31), hustling through bartending, social media photography, and side projects.
  • “At 18, I started bartending at Outback Steakhouse... That scrappiness that's required for church planting started when I was in college, really from a financial need.” (04:19)

• Leadership Emerges from Passion

  • A college Bible study gone viral: From a handful to 200+ students in one semester, then 700 in a local young adult ministry.
  • Noah’s first sermon was a “Judah Smith original,” preached from memory to a packed house out of necessity (09:00).
  • “I had so much passion... Maybe in the beginning the leadership going in my direction probably came because they were tired of me talking about this Bible study.” (11:28)

• The Church Planter’s Mindset

  • Early mentorship equated church planters to “the Navy SEALS of the Kingdom.”
  • Noah: “For me, building from the ground up is just how I'm wired—I’d have a much harder time inheriting and shifting an established church.” (12:20–15:15)

2. Essential Qualities and Lessons for New Church Planters (17:05–20:26)

• Adaptability (“Pivotability”) Is #1

  • Constant pivots with teams, venues, even weeks pre-launch (17:44).
  • “We thought we’d launch in one venue, found out four weeks before we couldn’t. Same with team—people join and leave. You just have to be pivotal.” (18:24)
  • “Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments.” (Chad Veach quote, 19:36)

• Managing Team Dynamics & Vision Drift

  • Many early team departures were due to vision/expectations disconnects—especially regarding the church’s “community first” model.
  • “Everyone is filling the gap of what you haven’t communicated with what they think it will be.” (19:37)
  • The biggest difference: planning for real relational connection, not just programs.

3. The “Community First” Model (20:30–30:12)

• Addressing the Loneliness Epidemic

  • After months in Nashville, Noah and Maddie identified loneliness as the city’s core spiritual problem.
  • “If you find community, you’ll stay even if you hate the city. If you don’t, you’ll eventually leave—even in a city with opportunity.” (21:08)
  • “Everything we do at our church is about community first—it sounds crazy, but we actually plan around that.” (22:50)

• Practical Structures for Building Community

  • From the start, even “interest gatherings” were about sparking genuine connection (clever use of name tag prompts: “What’s one thing you could talk about for hours?” at 25:37).
  • Small groups aren’t focused initially on theological comprehension but on vulnerability, personal stories, and fostering real friendships.
  • Innovative, fun group formats—social gatherings, food budgets, Topgolf outings—prioritize belonging before Bible study (27:15).

• “Connection Attracts” – Flipping Traditional Church Planting

  • “It’s the opposite of attract-and-connect. Connection attracts. And I think that’s why we’ve grown so quickly.”
  • Over 200 of their first 420+ conversions came directly from friendships, not sermons or social media (30:12).

4. Engaging Gen Z & Unbelievers (28:18–32:27)

• “Creating a Community Unbelievers Want to Join”
  • Inspired by Andy Stanley’s Making Vision Stick—community is the on-ramp for belief.
  • “We’ve literally got 20+ active small group attenders who are atheists or don’t follow Jesus. They love the community.” (31:28)
  • A clear pathway: Relationship ➔ Belonging ➔ Openness to Gospel Invitation

5. Distinctive Ministry & Operations Decisions (35:07–39:07)

• Way Groups: Mechanics & Rhythm

  • 10 weeks on, 6 weeks off; group size flexible; off-seasons used strategically for resetting and launching new groups.
  • Content is sermon-based but always leans toward community-oriented, vulnerability-centered discussion.

• No Live Streaming—FOMO as a Feature

  • “We want people in the room. If we streamed, we’d only be encouraging this digital generation to be more digital.” (36:36)
  • They post recordings after, but build the kind of experience you “can’t miss.”

• Intergenerational Influence

  • Spiritual “moms and dads” are featured on stage and in leadership as much as possible.
  • “Our church would be really struggling without those couples who decided to go to a missional, younger church.” (38:26)
  • Unexpected many older church members join to contribute and disciple, not just spectate.

6. Weekend Experience & Discipleship Strategy (41:48–47:09)

• Way Track: Rapid Assimilation

  • One-and-done membership/next-step class, led by seasoned leaders, offered every weekend for immediate involvement.
  • Strategic intent: “People want community, and the second thing they want is purpose.”

• Service Format: Experimentation Welcome

  • Standard worship/message order, but actively looking to experiment (e.g., preaching first, then worship response).
  • “If we’re doing our job right, people aren’t coming for a service flow, they’re coming to meet Jesus.” (45:32)

7. The Weight of Leadership (46:55–50:53)

• Emotional Burden

  • Church planting brings “the weight”: instantaneous, deep trust from new people—hard stories, confessions, expectations.
  • “I wasn’t prepared for the weight. I just didn’t know.” (46:57, 48:11)
  • Financial, team, venue anxiety—“We may be losing our venue soon. That’s kept me up the last five nights.” (49:59)

• Marriage & Co-Leadership

  • Open about a tough first year due to “unclear expectations”; found breakthrough by differentiating assumed vs. agreed expectations (52:17).
  • Leading Way together brings more unity and purpose than any prior season.

8. Social Media Philosophy & Outreach (53:36–59:52)

• Instagram is the Hub, TikTok on Deck

  • Social as the true “front door”—posts focus on showcasing real community, not just events/content.
  • “We’re trying to find something that, when people see it, they’re like, I want to be a part of that group of people.” (54:48)
  • Organic feed = helpful, value-driven content, not an advertisement flyer.

• Digital Ads vs. Word-of-Mouth

  • Facebook/IG ads work for first visits, but: “What keeps people is the culture, community, and word-of-mouth invites.” (57:34)

9. Leadership Growth & Volunteer Motivation (61:13–65:49)

• From “Doing” to “Equipping”

  • Sought wisdom from Jonathan Pokluda (“J.P.”): The job of Christian leaders is to “equip the saints for ministry.”
  • Now learning to embrace saying “no,” focus on multiplying leaders.
  • Staffing is extremely lean—only two full-time, one part-time for 700+ weekly; high volunteer buy-in fills the gap.

• Culture Code: Relational Equity

  • Investing the majority of leadership team time in connection and honor, not just checklists.
  • “I think we get people to buy in by relational equity... when they feel loved, they’ll pour out.” (63:39)

10. Suffering, Facilities, and Joy Amid Growth (71:02–86:17)

• Hardest Moments & Facility Limitations

  • Recalls devastating Sundays of record attendance with failing AC, insufficient space, and unavoidable pride/shame cycles.
  • “It would have been a day I celebrated... but all I could think about was all those first-time people sweating. I had to deal with my own pride.” (73:15)
  • Despite suboptimal space and parking, “people will go where there’s something worth going to... God’s presence and real community are the main things.” (77:48)

• Personal Health & Longevity

  • Three essential rhythms: daily Bible/quiet time (“non-negotiable”), regular endurance exercise, and a real Sabbath (Friday — delight/worship only).
  • “If your Sabbath doesn’t make you feel like a little kid on Christmas Eve, you’re not doing it right.” (85:56, citing John Mark Comer)

11. Final Lessons for Church Planters (86:17–90:10)

• Top Advice:
  • Seek robust training and connection with others walking the same road.
  • Don’t let age/inexperience intimidate; “If you want to reach older people, reach your peers. God will bring the rest.”
  • Pick a city you love: “Church planting is hard—you might as well do it somewhere you love. That way, when it gets hard, you won’t want to leave.” (Rich Wilkerson Jr. inspiration, 89:00)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Team Building:
  • “Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments.” (Chad Veach, 19:36)
• On Their Approach:
  • “Everything we do at our church is about community first—it sounds crazy, but we actually plan around that.” (22:50)
• On Reaching Gen Z:
  • “Our mission is creating a community that unbelievers want to be a part of.” (29:02)
• On Volunteer Motivation:
  • “We get people to buy in by relational equity. When they feel a part of a group that loves them, they’ll pour out for that group.” (63:39)
• On Facilities:
  • “People will go where there’s something worth going to. If God’s presence is there, it’s worth going to. If there’s community, it’s worth going to.” (77:48)
• On Sabbath:
  • “If your Sabbath doesn’t make you feel like a little kid on Christmas Eve, you’re not doing it right.” (85:56)

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Key Timestamps

• 03:01 — Early life & entrepreneurial scrappiness
• 09:00 — First preaching & viral Bible study
• 12:20 — The church planter mindset (“Navy SEALS”)
• 18:24 — The absolute need for adaptability (“pivotability”)
• 20:26 — Why team members left: vision disconnects
• 21:08 — Identifying loneliness as the city’s core need
• 25:37 — Clever group intro tactics for fostering immediate connection
• 27:15 — Small group questions that foster vulnerability over “Bible trivia”
• 31:28 — 20+ non-Christians loving group life
• 36:36 — No live streaming—creating FOMO
• 38:26 — Featuring spiritual “moms and dads”
• 45:32 — Changing service templates: “If we’re doing our job right, they’re coming for Jesus”
• 46:55 — The unique emotional weight of church planting
• 53:36 — Social media: showcasing community, not just content
• 61:13 — Leadership shift from “doer” to “equipper”
• 71:02 — Hardest day: “AC fails, attendance breaks records, pride & shame creep in”
• 77:48 — Facilities don’t matter as much as presence & community
• 80:00 — Joyful, healthy rhythms: three pillars for longevity

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Episode Tone

Candid, energetic, practical, humble, and invitational—this conversation was full of laughter, hard-won honesty, and a sense of spiritual optimism about church planting in a wounded, lonely culture.

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For Listeners Who Didn’t Tune In

This episode isn’t just about explosive growth; it’s a masterclass in 21st-century church planting. The Way Church’s “community before content” shift is both disruptively simple and deeply biblical, offering hope to weary leaders who sense that relationships, not just programming, are the next frontier in ministry. Noah’s hard-earned wisdom, humility, and joy—despite venues, staffing, and setbacks—make this a must-listen for any leader ready to reimagine what church can be.

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Connect with Noah Herrin:

• Instagram
• Way Church, Nashville
• Book: Holy Habits

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Transcript

[A]

The Art of Leadership Network. What problem could we solve here in the city for people like, what's the problem that is glaring to us? And we lived in the city for about six months before we realized what the problem was. But the problem was loneliness. That was the problem that we saw everywhere, no matter the age. And so everything that we do at our church, it sounds crazy, but we're actually thinking community first.

[B]

Welcome to the Cary Newhof Leadership Podcast. It's Carrie here and I hope our time together today helps you thrive in life and leadership. Well, you know, if you're planting a church or thinking of launching a campus or you just want to reach the next generation, this is going to be a great episode. Noah Herron is on the podcast. He is the founding and lead pastor of Way church in Nashville, Tennessee. And they have grown from zero to about seven or 800 in 14 months. Average age of the church, 25. And they're leading with community, not content. There's an awful lot of learnings here. Hey. Today's episode is part of a five part series on the five disruptive church trends that will rule 2025. To go along with the series, I've got a free leader guide. I would love for you to get your hands on it. Not just for you, but for your team. The leader guide includes all five trends in detail and study and application questions and a lot. You can Download yours at 2025churchtrends.com Again, that's 2025churchtrends.com. So Noah Herron is the lead pastor of Way Church in Nashville, Tennessee. He's also a communicator and author who travels around the world and teaches the Bible in churches, at conferences and in universities. He's also the author of Holy Habits. For those of you who have joined us because it's a new year, welcome. We're really glad you're here. If you are enjoying this podcast and you've liked our interview far, make sure you subscribe. I only listen to the podcast I subscribe to and if you really love it, share it with a friend. Maybe leave us a rating and review. When you do that, it means an awful lot to me because it helps us get the word out to other leaders. And I gotta tell you, I so appreciate you. So whatever you're doing today, whether you are out on a run at the gym, I hear from leaders all the time who work out and listen to this. Whatever you're doing, welcome. We're so glad you're here. And now a quick word from one of our Partners. Now let's dive into today's conversation. Noah, welcome to the podcast.

[A]

Thanks for having me, Carrie. It's an honor.

[B]

Hey, it's a real joy to have you here. So I would love to know we're thinking about church planting today. My wife and I, we spent a month in Franklin. We got to go to Wade Church. Really impressed. I've been following from afar. I don't know shortly after launch or something like that, but to be in the room, see it in the house. You were, of course, away that weekend.

[A]

I was so bummed.

[B]

Yeah, well, we were bummed that you weren't there, but Grant Skeldon did an awesome job. But I would love to know what were any experiences early in life that made you prepared you. I'm not talking about calling like I feel called to plant the church, but it's a particular skill set that I think church planters have that you have to. Have to be good at what you do. What early experiences in your life prepared you to be a church planter?

[A]

Yeah, I think financially growing up, my parents were pastors, and I always tell people, my parents, they were blessed, but there were some seasons we would walk by the lake and ducks would throw bread at us. You know what I mean? There were some seasons where we were pretty poor, and I wouldn't trade my childhood and growing up for anything. But by the time I was 18, I was pretty much on my own. My parents would help out when I went to school with occasional, you know, groceries or gas money, stuff like that. But by the time I got to college, I was paying for my own rent, I was paying for my own car payments, my own health insurance, everything. And so at 18, I started bartending at Outback Steakhouse.

[B]

Well, there's a highlight.

[A]

There you go. And I think just like from a young age, having to figure out how to make it, just kind of like jumping out there financially, jumping out there even relationally. Like, I quickly realized, hey, there, there's money to be made. I wasn't thinking about ministry at that point in time at all, but there's money to be to be made. If you can just be good with people and just be a young person who follows through on their word, there's an opportunity for me. And so I've always been pretty entrepreneurial. Was bar ending. And then I started a little side hustle in college with some social media and photography and stuff like that. And I think looking back, that scrappiness that is required for church planting started when I was in college, really from A financial need versus, like, a natural bent, if that makes sense.

[B]

What did your parents do for a living?

[A]

Yeah, so my mom was actually a middle school teacher for a while, and then my dad was a youth pastor for a long time, eventually became an executive pastor, and then now he's a lead pastor. And so my dad's been in ministry since before I was born, and then my mom has always kind of been in the education space.

[B]

Yeah. And again, you know, ministry doesn't always pay well. Right. Like, in a lot of cases, it doesn't. So it was in the context of ministry that made you kind of realize, at 18, I'm out on my own. That's no slam against your parents. Why did that. Do you know why that didn't have the opposite impact? Like, okay, church is poor. I'm gonna go, like, sell something. You know, I'm gonna sell cars for a living, make a million. I'm gonna do some startup, make million. Why didn't it send you in the opposite direction of the church?

[A]

I think a lot of it had to do with my parents just seeing the fulfillment that came from their lives. And I've always been someone who's been probably too much aware of what I waste or don't waste. So, like, my biggest fear is wasting my life. Like, it always has been of, like, I don't want to look back and realize I wasted a, you know, a year of my life or a season of my life focused on the wrong things. And so I think, like, seeing the way my parents wouldn't trade, you know, anything for what they were allowed to. To do through ministry and the way that. That fulfilled them and the way that they literally were like, man, every season of our life has been so fulfilling. I think by the time I did feel called to vocational ministry, it was just like, this is a great way for me to live my life to the fullest. And there was a calling story and all those things as well, but I just really felt good about, if I do this and pursue this, I'm not going to look back and feel like I wasted something. So.

[B]

So tell me more about what you did from 18. How old were you when you planted Way Church?

[A]

We moved to Nashville in 27. The church launched right before I turned 28.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So those. Those intervening years, that decade between leaving home, figuring it out, what. What else prepared you to launch church?

[A]

Yeah, so when I was 21, that was kind of the moment that I went all in for Jesus. So grew up in church, had a relationship with the Lord. But kind of was running from a lot of the faith.

[B]

I'm familiar with that pattern at 19:20.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So I went through about a three year stretch there where I was running pretty hard. Long story short, actually dedicated my life to the Lord through a Judah smith sermon on YouTube. I know he's a mutual friend of ours, and he's one of the best communicators of the gospel, I think, of a generation. And one of his sermons really spoke to me in college. Dedicated my life to Jesus. And a couple months later, I was feeling like this craving to grow in my faith and started a Bible study with some guys on the Lee University basketball team, which is where I was going to school. And the only way I know how to describe it is God's hand was just on this little Bible study. Because literally in the beginning, I would just read or one of us would read a chapter of Scripture, we would talk about it. And by the end of that semester, we had over 200 college students meeting to read the Bible and actually got thrown into preaching that way because eventually you can't do a Bible study when it gets to a certain size. Someone's got to study anymore, you know, and the fir. I mean, I remember the first time we had over like 70 people. One of my friends was like, I think you're going to have to preach. And I was like, I think you're going to have to preach. And this is a true story. I've told Pastor Judah this, but I preached from memory one of Judah Smith's sermons that night because I just. I didn't want to be a preacher. I never signed up to do that, you know, And I just felt this pressure and I was like, well, Judah said it better than I would, so I'm just gonna go with what I remember from his sermon. And I've apologized since then. But that was really how I got into ministry, was this Bible study that grew. We weren't trying to make, you know, a young adult ministry, but it grew. And then I ended up leading that for five years. So graduated college. There was a past in town that took a chance on me and said, hey, I know you, you know, didn't go to school to be a pastor or go to seminary, but I. I see a calling on your life and we'd like to pay you so you don't have to bartend anymore at night. Which honestly was a great evangelism strategy for the young adult ministry. Bartending. But so I did that for five years, led this college ministry of about 700 college students. And then for two years I just did full time evangelism. So preaching at churches and universities and conferences prior to starting the church.

[B]

Why do you think leadership pivoted to you in college? Because you're like, you said, your friend. No, you teach it. And he's like, you did. So how much of it was self selection? How much of it is other people saying, well, you're the natural leader. I'd love to break that down. And the question under the question is what? What were some of the emerging skills for becoming a church planter?

[A]

I think the college season, I've never actually thought about that. But right now, thinking back, I had so much passion. And I've noticed that oftentimes when people have freshly made a decision for Christ, the passion's at an all time high. You know, it's so high. And so I was so passionate. I was the one who was pushing the gatherings in the beginning. I was the one who was, you know, inviting people to it. And so I honestly think that maybe in the beginning the leadership going in my direction probably came because they were tired of me talking about this Bible study.

[B]

You're so passionate, you do it.

[A]

Yeah, it was like, okay, you plan it. Okay. You know, you talk at it. And I think I've always loved people and I was actually studying communication. I wanted to be a broadcast journalist. And so I loved communicating. I just had never done it in that context before. And so I think maybe once I started it, started doing it, there were people there who saw something that I didn't see in myself until later, which was just the ability to talk about Jesus in a way that made sense or resonated. But I think in the beginning it was really just passionate. That kind of gave me the leadership.

[B]

Take it a little bit further now. And leading up to, leading to starting way church, what made you think it's going to be church planting? Yeah, let's leave it there. What made you think it's going to be a church plant for me?

[A]

So when I was in college and that Bible study had just started, I was being discipled by a church planter. So I started going to this little church plant. It had only been around for less than a year. The pastor, I thought was just the coolest guy, just, he just had this, this faith level that inspired me so much as a newer, you know, sold out believer. And I remember one time we were having coffee and I said, why would you do that? Like, like he was on staff at a, at a much bigger church in another Role making more money than he was as a church planner. I was like, why would you do that? And he said, you have to be. You kind of have to be crazy to be a church planter. And. And he said this phrase, and this is. This is gonna sound funny, but he said church planters are kind of like the Navy seals of the kingdom of God. He said, you kind of have to be a little crazy to jump out of that airplane. And when he said that, I was like, I want to be that. You know? And I just remember I was, like, 21, you know, 22. But that was a really, like, memorable moment for me where I was like, man, there's something about his faith level that really attracts me. Like, God has to be in it for it to work. But then, as I got older, I started to notice some weaknesses in myself. I knew I wanted to be a lead pastor one day, but the idea of taking over something that someone else had built really scared me, because I think that the way I'm wired is to build from the ground up. Some people listening to this might say, man, church planting, that sounds so difficult. I think taking something, for me, would have been far more difficult than building something from scratch, just because the patience that it requires to shift a culture and to shift a vision, maybe from what you're taking over. I have friends who are really, really great at that, but if I did that, I think I would mess it all up.

[B]

What would make you think that you're not suited for it?

[A]

I think I'll get a vision of the way that I feel like God's calling me to do something, and I will just run after it so hard, and I'm ready to run right now, and I want to make the changes right now. And so just an example would be if I. If I was to take over a church that had been around for 50 years. Obviously, there's going to be different visions, there's going to be different ideas, and I think I would be tempted to change things too quickly in a way that probably wouldn't do a great job of maybe honoring some of the things that were really great things and could still be great things just because I want to. You know, I've got this vision in my head. And so church planting, there are definitely difficulties, for sure. I'm sure we'll get to. But. But one of the real pros in my vantage point was that, hey, we got a clean set, clean slate, so we can just try things, and if it doesn't work, we're a church Plant so we can change it the next day.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so that really was attractive to me.

[B]

So tell me about some of the other businesses you did leading into the decision to come to Nashville and start Wade Church. Like, you mentioned social media. I think a few other. What. What did that entrepreneurial streak look like for you?

[A]

So in college, a hobby of mine was photography. So I just started taking really, like, landscape photos. I would go on hikes and take these photos. And then my sophomore year of college, I started to pick up some steam on the Internet with these, like, think like, like North Carolina fall landscape, like on a mountain. Like, I was taking those kind of photos and I started getting reached out to by clothing companies, really saying, hey, we'll pay you to take that same photo. You stand in the photo with our clothes and we'll pay you. And so I did it for Urban Outfitters. I did it for H&M Forever 21, like some big, like, clothing companies, and they were paying way better than Outback Steakhouse.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even with all the tips.

[A]

Yeah, even with the tips. So that was how it started. It was just kind of like freelance doing photography. And then prior to us launching the church, I kind of stopped the photography and went full time in the ministry. But even today, I started a LLC called Mana Creative with some friends. And we just help churches and small businesses with their social media strategies and content and stuff like that. And so that's been something that's just kind of evolved over time. But I've always had a love for creativity and for social media, just amplifying messages online.

[B]

So would you say you're kind of a serial entrepreneur?

[A]

I think so, yeah.

[B]

I mean, not even 30 yet, but probably, yeah, probably. Okay, that's good to know if. For people listening out there. I mean, you're, You're. You're literally months into this. We can't even mark two years, four years since the church launched. But that's one of the reasons I wanted to have this conversation with you is people are thinking, what does it take to be a church planter now, right? Like, in this environment, what would you say are a couple of the. The key characteristics, qualities, skills, gifts that, That a church planter needs?

[A]

I think we. I don't even know if this is a word, but we say the word pivotable all the time. You just have to be. I mean, you can think it's going to be this way, and in a moment's notice, it's a completely different way. We thought we were going to launch in this venue four weeks before we started the church, we found out, nope, you can't meet here anymore. I mean, that was literally our story. But it's not just with venues, it's with, it's with team members. You know, you, you begin to grow a team and you think, hey, everyone on this team is going to be with us forever. And that's just not the case. You know, it's just not so depressing and so true.

[B]

Yeah, everybody's there. It's like, I'm building the team.

[A]

Here we go.

[B]

That's going to last forever. And then you don't. And you've had that already. You're how many months at recording?

[A]

14 months. 14 months.

[B]

14 months into it. And already like, yeah, had to pivot. Pivot.

[A]

Pivot, yeah. And I'm talking like, you know, we kind of built a team for nine months before starting the church. And there were people who joined the team before we started the church and were off the team by the time we started the church, you know, in a nine month period. And, you know, many of them had amazing reasons for that. But it just, you gotta be pivotal. I would say that's the number one thing.

[B]

So that's such a big issue. I want to pause there for a minute. Don't, don't tell stories. I mean, assume everybody's listening, and I know you would anyway. But, like, can you give us some of the, the, the reasons that people voluntarily opting out, or you might be tapping him on the shoulder going, hey, not sure you're the right guy for us. What happened?

[A]

I think misconceptions, right? I think it was actually Chad Veach one time. I heard him say that unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments.

[B]

That is so true.

[A]

You know, when you're transplanting, you have all this vision in your head and you can see where you're going, but there's so many things that are happening and you're trying to just build relationships with people that everyone is filling the gap of what you haven't filled through vision and communication with what they think it's going to be. And so I think there are people who joined the team early who were like, this is the kind of church we're going to be. This is how we're going to do evangelism, or this is what our worship is going to be like. And then the closer we got, they were like, oh, this wasn't what I thought it was going to be. It's not that I don't love what you guys are doing. And I'm not rooting for it. I'm just looking for a different experience. And so we blessed those people. You know, we were like, hey, we totally get it. There are so many great churches in Nashville. Why would we try to keep you from going to one that. That you're going to feel like you can run in more?

[B]

So what were. This is really important. What were some of the vision disconnects?

[A]

Yeah, there were. There were some vision disconnects, for sure, around just the way that we were going to do even evangelism. So we do small groups in a very particular way. Everything that we do at our church comes down to community first, which is a little bit unique, but our age demographic is very young. You saw when you visited.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I was blown away. I'm impressed that I guessed it. I thought 25. And you told me at lunch today it was 25.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's the average age.

[B]

Average age of a church. 25.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's incredible.

[A]

And what we. What we asked when we got to Nashville was, what problem could we solve here in the city for people like, what's the problem? That is glaring to us. And we lived in the city for about six months before we realized what the problem was. But the problem was loneliness. That was the problem that we saw everywhere, no matter the age. Um, and the New York Times actually came out with an article, I think it was in 2021, after Covid had hit, saying someone way, way smarter than me called the Time. We're living in the loneliness epidemic. And what we've noticed is that someone could live in an awesome city, like opportunity everywhere. But if they don't find community, they're going to leave that place. Like, if they don't find people that they feel connected to in a deep way, it's only a matter of time before they leave their job and find another one in another place. However, you could live in a city that you don't like at all. Traffic's bad, you know, you don't like the food options, whatever. But if you find community, you're. You're there for the long haul. And so everything that we do at our church, it's. It sounds crazy, but we're actually thinking community first, as we found. If we can get people to like the experience, they're so much more open to hearing the gospel, living on mission, doing all the things we hope that they'll do at our church. But we're trying to plan everything around. Can we have someone truly find friends here? And I really think the reason we've been able to see what we've seen is because the people of our church like buying into that vision.

[B]

Did you make that up? Like, where did that come from? Because I don't think I've heard that before. And I talk to a lot of church leaders. Leaders. This whole idea of community first, I mean, I've written about it, I'm like, content used to be scarce, now it's plentiful. Community used to be plentiful, now it's scarce. But I'm not claiming credit for that idea. It's just that's a really, that really resonates. And I don't know that I know anyone else who did something like that. Today's episode is brought to you by Glue. You know, with summer winding down, it's officially back to church season. A crucial window to reconnect with your community and reignite momentum at your church. And Glue plus gives you everything you need to hit the ground running this fall. So here's what you can do. You can send texts and emails personally to invite people back and keep them engaged all through the autumn. You can create custom groups like parents, volunteers or new visitors and automate follow ups for prayer requests, first time guests or events. You can be more communicative than ever so no one and nothing falls through the cracks. You can use AI powered insights to understand your community's needs and tailor your outreach accordingly. And you can welcome new families into your area with a new mover program. So thousands of churches are seeing real impact with Glue plus. How do you get on board? Well, join them [e-mail] plus. That's G L O-O.com plus.

[A]

I've definitely been inspired by a lot of different people. And so I think though the first thing that inspired that concept was actually the lack of community I had experienced in my life. So at most churches we hope people go and get in a small group. The problem is not small groups. The problem is that oftentimes in small groups, community doesn't happen. And that could be for lots of different reasons. It could be because the vibe's not right in that group or whatever. But I think the biggest thing that I experienced is that it was just like, let's just throw these people in a small group and let's hope community happens instead of intentionally planning for community to happen.

[B]

So what's the difference? How does.

[A]

Yeah, so like for instance, when we, before we started the church, we do these interest gatherings. The interest gathering was just a facade to try to get people into community. As soon as they would come to this interest gathering, we would give them a name tag. But the name tag had two fill in the blanks, a small one for the name, and then the other fill in the blank was what's one thing you could talk about for hours? So every time these people who are coming to hear about the church walked in the door, they were immediately seeing what someone else was passionate about. And it started organic conversations.

[B]

Where did that idea come from?

[A]

My wife, she's brilliant.

[B]

That's great.

[A]

But we were like, you know, all these people are here. We don't want them to be attached to us. We want them to be attached to each other. And so we've taken that same principle in our small groups, and we've wired our small group curriculum not around again. This is gonna sound really crazy. I'm gonna get emails about this, maybe. But instead of like, hey, what does John 4 say? What's the theological meaning of this? Our small group questions. The goal of the question is to provoke vulnerability and community first. So we're not asking, like, theologically, what is what Jesus said, you know, mean here? We're trying to ask questions like, how have you seen this be true in your life? What Jesus just said, will you share that with. Share a moment in your life where your weakness actually led to strength? Because when someone is able to get vulnerable in a conversation, there's a link that happens there, community wise. That's so much different than me just being like, the answer to this theological question is this. So even in, like, our small group discussion questions, even in how we plan out small groups, like, this week, no one opened their Bible. We gave each small group a budget for food, and we just said, break bread around the table and share what the highs and lows of this season of weight group small groups have been and just have a meal together. We've paid for groups to go play topgolf together because we're just trying to make friends happen first, and then we believe they'll go deeper after that.

[B]

Okay, I got a million questions. It almost sounds like the model you're describing. Like, if you look at most churches, and particularly church plants, it's like, attract and connect, attract and connect. We'll get everybody together, big group, big room. Eventually we'll figure out a way for you and Maddie, your wife, to connect with five other people or whatever. It seems like what you're saying is connection attracts. It's the opposite of attract and connect. Connection attracts, absolutely. So the other thing that I'M thinking about is thinking of a Gen Z and you're squarely a Gen Z church. Talk about community. I don't even want to make a statement. Talk about community in the context of Gen Z. Is it an acquired skill? Is it something they're naturally good at? Is it something they're craving? Is it something they have in other places? Are they as lonely as the research says? Explore that a little bit more.

[A]

I definitely think Gen Z is craving community, even if they might not be able to articulate that right? So like, obviously they can articulate what they need. They're one of the smartest generations on the planet. But what I mean by that is we found that there's a craving inside of Gen Z that they often don't realize is the lack of community because we have all these great resources at our, at our fingertips. I was, I was really inspired by a book I read by Pastor Andy Stanley. I'm blanking on the name. You'll. You'll probably know it.

[B]

I know most of his books. Try the content.

[A]

But it was a little tiny book all about vision statements and, and sticky mission statements.

[B]

I think it. Isn't it Making Vision Stick.

[A]

That's it, yeah.

[B]

Making Vision Stick.

[A]

I read that book.

[B]

Classic.

[A]

And I, and I, and I read the story about how they created their mission statement at North Point in the early days. And it so inspired me because it was all about community for unbelievers. And so we were so inspired by that that we made our mission statement creating a community that unbelievers want to be a part of. And we did that because of what you're alluding to, which is that we found that if the community is so good amongst Gen Z, millennials, whatever generation, unbelievers will be attracted to the community part before anything else. And then when they come and they see, oh wait, you guys, like, you guys are Christians. Like, you guys love Jesus. Like, you know, I'm not sure how I feel about the Bible or Jesus, but man, you guys have way better community than anything that I've experienced in this city. Like, I just want to hang out with you guys. That has led to more salvations at our church than any other thing. Like, we've seen 420 people give their life to Christ in our first 14 months. And I would guess over 200 of those came from friendships, not pastoral invites or social media clips or any of those things.

[B]

How do you track that? Salvations.

[A]

So we track the salvations that directly happen in weight groups. So we've Actually had people who I guess I should back up. We do 10 week seasons for groups and then six week off seasons to give everyone breaks. And two of the 10 weeks we do, we call them missionary mindset weeks. No Bible, no worship. You pick a public space. This is something we took from an Ed Stetzer idea, but you pick a public space, you invite non Christian friends, family, co workers to come hang out with your way group. So we've done super bowl cookout parties, we've done bowling alleys, whatever. We're not evangelizing to them at these gatherings. We're just trying to make friends. Hey, me and a bunch of people were going bowling tonight. Do you want to come? We'll pay for you. Hey, we're having a Super bowl cookout. Come hang out and then they come, they make friends. They have no idea that it's a church affiliated group. They're just making friends. Many of them today we have, I would guess 20 plus people in groups right now who are atheists, don't follow Jesus, love the community so much that they keep coming to a Christian small group.

[B]

Well, you're answering a question I had because there were so many young adults and you know, young adults, a lot of them probably still single, right? Based on. But I'm like, are these a whole bunch of church kids who just left like mom and dad's church? No, I guess not.

[A]

No, I think we definitely have that. For sure, for sure. But yeah, I mean we've had 420 something salvations. You know, there are some of those that they never come back. There's some of those that gave their life to Jesus. They're not from Nashville, they were visiting, whatever. But we have so many young believers at our church, it is unbelievable. I'm talking the guy that was security with me this past Sunday gave his life to Jesus through one of our small groups four months ago, started serving at the church, you know, was it was in the army for four years and joined our security team. And he's like one of the best stories I've ever heard, you know. But we have, our church is full of new believers like that.

[B]

Wow. So just to cut down on the number of emails you're going to get after this podcast, I mean you've talked about community first. Community first, obviously. I mean I've seen you teach, you do believe the Bible. You think the Bible is important. How does it fit into your strategy?

[A]

Yeah. So every single Sunday we give a very clear gospel presentation. So it doesn't matter if we're Preaching on dating or relationships or if we're preaching on giving, I'm going to figure out a way to present the gospel at the end of the sermon. And we also have, we've seen a lot of fruit from that. But then we do it in a unique way. I don't know if Grant did this the Sunday that you were there, but when we do the gospel presentation, I say, you may have grown up or gone to a church where it gets to this moment for someone to make a decision to follow Christ. And oftentimes whoever's leading that moment will say, hey, we want everyone to close your eyes. At our church, we ask everyone to open their eyes because we want you to know this isn't a moment that you should be ashamed of, but you should be really excited about. And everyone in our church wants to see it because we made that decision and it's reminding us of why we do what we do. And so we have them raise their hand in front of everyone and our church goes nuts.

[B]

No way.

[A]

Like, it is like better than a Super bowl cheer.

[B]

No, I missed that one.

[A]

And so this past Sunday I preached on giving, did a salvation opportunity and eight people gave their life to Jesus. And our church went crazy. And it's reminding the people who are there who've been because we have people in our church who've been following Jesus for 45 years. It's reminding them of the mission and the new people are going, man, these people, they are for me, like they just went crazy because of the decision I just made. I might have found a place here. And so those two things I think on Sundays have really, really. It's just kept it to where leading people to Jesus is not just a pastoral thing. It's like our church wants it so bad, they want to be a part of it, which is really cool.

[B]

What other decisions have you made in these first 14 months in the pre launch that would be different. So community first, by the way, a couple of. Before we get to that question, a couple of things people are going to want to know. How big are your weight groups? You said they meet 10 weeks on, six weeks off. Something like that. Do the same groups reconstitute or you mix it up? Just give us a mechanic.

[A]

Yeah, so we leave that up to the tender if they go. So we ask them to stay in the same group for the season because it's only 10 weeks during the off season. That's the free for all. So you can re up the. The size of the group is dependent on the host so if the host feels good about 15 people in their home, great. You can have a max of 15. We have groups as small as eight, as large as 22. We don't really want them to be larger than 20. Once they hit 20, we encourage to start a new group every off season. It gives us a chance to look at the group size and to kind of reevaluate. How many new groups do we need to start next season. It's just been a good reset and we push them really, really hard during the off season. We share testimonies of what's happening in the groups. We have people who are leading groups, share the group announcement on stage, why they care about weigh groups so much, et cetera. And then the content itself is sermon based. So we're discussing the sermon the week after the sermon. Yeah, myself and our executive pastor as well as our community director kind of coordinate the content each week. But the questions that we're asking are always provoking community first thoughts.

[B]

What other strategic decisions did you make that might not be your typical cookie cutter church plant?

[A]

We don't stream. And that was again community first in mind. We want people to come and with our age demographic, we knew if we streamed we would only be encouraging a digital age to be more digital. And I love digital. I mean I use it non stop. So this is not a slight on digital in any way. But we just felt like that was actually a strategic decision for our context was to not stream. And so we post the sermon the day after. But we try to create as much FOMO as possible about being in the room. So fear of missing out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So we try to create that through everything, including our gathering. So we've never streamed and we don't really want to because it's just really worked well for us. My mom doesn't like that. Cause she prefers to. She wants to listen in to our second service when theirs is done, you know, but. But so that was a really intentional decision. And then I think something else that we did was like we growing up in my parents church, they would always put the young people on stage. We're putting the spiritual moms and dads on stage as much as possible. That was my biggest fear. Planting is. I felt like I was too young. Why would an older person sit under my leadership? I can't tell this man how to be a great dad. He already is. I need to be asking him. God's surrounded us with amazing. Amazing. We call them chronologically superior saints and we lean into their wisdom and we put them on stage for as much as we can, leading as much as we can. And I think that that was an intentional decision, and it's provided more fruit than I ever could have thought.

[B]

What kind of fruit?

[A]

So the young people coming to our church going, man, I want to learn from them. You know, I want to be discipled by them. I want to be in their way, group. I want to, you know, I want to get to know that that person. The statistics around broken families in Gen Z is pretty astronomical, you know, high. And so I think a lot of our church has found spiritual moms and dads through them, and that has just been the biggest blessing. I mean, our church would be really struggling without those couples who strategically made a decision to go to a younger church and be missional, which they could. You know, they could be at a church where it's. It's all their age. It's easier for them.

[B]

It's all about them.

[A]

But they came to set up and tear down and to pour into a bunch of young people. And it's one of my favorite parts of our church is those couples, you.

[B]

Know, And I think. I think hearing a story like this can lead people in my generation, older, a bit younger, feeling very threatened or like, oh, we kind of missed out. But even that Sunday there, and we know a lot of people who go to Wade Church, the embrace of your generation to us has been been so encouraging, to the point where after our Sunday at Wade Church, people, like, want pictures, you know, against your backdrops, your step and repeats, et cetera. And I remember one DM I got that Sunday was like, whether you guys like it or not, you adopted us. It's like, yeah, that's great. But that is very much the vibe of your church, right? Is that generational, or is that a way church thing?

[A]

I think it's generational. Honestly, I think it's generational. We're craving to learn. And it's funny, I was talking to our mutual friend Grant Skeldon, and he was saying how I just had never thought about this. Like, for our generation, it's intimidating to ask someone like you if you would pour into us. Were intimidated. Like, I've thought about that. But he said, I've talked to more older leaders who feel that same intimidation about asking if they can pour into younger leaders who are like, why? You know, I don't know. You know, for whatever reason, whatever insecurity that you might have in your mind to reach out to a younger person, but it's on both sides. And so the magic Happens when you have the older person who's asking anyways and a younger person who's asking anyways. And I think right now we're experiencing something special where we have hungry younger people and we have older people who are just like, I want to pour out to whoever wants this. And it's just been. It's been awesome.

[B]

Well, my wife and I are definitely at that point where we, we find a lot of life in people, you know, younger than us. And we have lots of peers our age or a little bit older. But there's just a life that comes to us in the process of building into the next generation. And honestly, it's a form of reverse mentoring too. You just learn so much and it's genuinely enjoyable. So your approach to the weekend experience, what other intentional decisions did you make? Because it's three or four worship songs and a message and occasionally baptisms, et cetera. But what were some of the intentional choices you made in designing how you would do weekends at Way Church?

[A]

So we do a weekly thing called Way Track. We didn't invent it. We. We took something that church of the Highlands and Arc, they call it Growth track. We just added away in front of it, but we made it a one week thing. So there's lots of. It would basically be a, for those who aren't familiar, a membership, next steps, all in one kind of a class.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And there are churches who do it one week. There are churches who do it for five weeks long. We felt like it would be really hard with our demographic of so many parents with young kids to get them to come back to that class more than one week. So we do it every Sunday. It's right during our last Service. We do three services and it's during our third service. And it's a 45 minute class led by core people on our team, four mostly led by a couple in their 50s who's kind of a spiritual mom and dad at our church. And that class has been phenomenal in so many different ways. It's where people can ask any question they want about the church. We give a brief vision and mission kind of talk, and then that's where they can sign up to join the team. They can serve literally the next week if they want to, depending on where they want to serve. They want to serve in kids background check, a couple different things. But if you want to be a greeter, we can have you shadow the very next week. And so that was a real intentional decision because again, we were like, people want community. And the Second thing that they want is they want purpose. And so if we can give them great community and an opportunity to serve here right away, that's going to increase our chance of them really diving in and following Jesus in our community. And so we give people an opportunity to serve there as well as join a group in that class. And that's been, I mean, that's our funnel, right? Like that's the thing that keeps everything growing and going. And the people who teach the class are phenomenal. Our executive pastor Connor does an amazing job with all the systems to make it flow. But that's been a game changer for.

[B]

Us about the weekend format. It feels familiar. Like you go to a lot of churches like that. Why did you embrace like worship music?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Why did you not do something decidedly off track that way?

[A]

I think it works, you know, and I like it. We are about to do some mix ups, more so just because I want to try it. So I'm about to start preaching first for just a couple months, just to see how it goes.

[B]

Preach first, worship later.

[A]

Okay, so we'll do. We're going to. And this will happen in January, but we're going to try one kind of upbeat song, give everyone a chance to come in. There'll be a host who comes up and welcomes everyone. And then I will take it right after that moment and go straight into the sermon. And we used to do this at our college ministry. That was our flow. And what I liked about it was it gives you a response to or a chance to respond in worship to the Word. And we just had some personally, my wife and I, really meaningful moments in response during that format. And so we just were like, hey, we've been doing this for 14 months this way. Let's just try it and see if people like it. And if they don't, we'll just go back. So. But we're going to try it out.

[B]

I can think of some leaders who would say, wait a minute, we're growing really rapidly. You know, you went from church plant to how many people now on a.

[A]

Typical Sunday, about 700. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, 700 young adults. This is working. Don't mess with it. You're like, I'm going to mess with it. But talk to leaders who are afraid to make change.

[A]

I'm afraid to make change.

[B]

Okay. That's honest.

[A]

But when I think about why I'm afraid to make change, I think it's because I'm believing the lie that people are coming because of a service flow or they're coming because of the lie of. You fill in the blank on what your crutch is for, what you think is keeping your church afloat. And so I have to speak to myself and remind myself they're not coming for the service flow. They might enjoy our worship team. They're amazing. They might enjoy my style of teaching. I hope I want to grow as a communicator. But if we're doing our job right, they're coming because they meet Jesus every week. And if that is the case, Jesus can meet them in any service flow. And I don't know, I think also, like, there was a time when everyone wasn't doing three or four songs and then the sermon, and then someone was like, hey, let's try this. And it worked. And so why not try something? And yeah, I mean, you trying something you're afraid to try could be the next thing we all do.

[B]

Right? Right.

[A]

And it's not that hard to switch it back. You know, we're talking about, for most, most churches, we're talking about 70 to 90 minute service. We can change it the next week if we don't like it.

[B]

Yeah, it's not, it's not like permanent as it's not chiseled in stone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hardest part of church planting so far.

[A]

Oh, man. I wasn't prepared for the wait.

[B]

Laughing with you. Great answer.

[A]

I just, I wasn't. I heard people talk about it, and the best way I know how to describe it, Carrie, is like, if you and I didn't know each other and we just met and you were like, let's go get coffee and get to know each other, that first hour conversation that you and I would have together, I would probably learn a lot about you, you'd probably learn a lot about me, but we probably wouldn't go crazy deep. There's a chance we would. I probably wouldn't share, like, the darkest sin I'm struggling with with you. I probably wouldn't ask for your advice for my marriage. But with a pastor, especially like a lead pastor, there's such a built in trust that people have with you, which is a huge honor. Right. Like, I'm not. I'm so grateful for that. But the amount of conversations I've had with people in the last 14 months, that went there really fast, you know, I'm like, man, we're, you know, I'm thinking, I'm just getting coffee and next.

[B]

Thing I know, hey, what's your name?

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

It's like, well, I'm having an affair, you know, or whatever. Whatever. It happens to be.

[A]

Seriously. I'm sure that's happened, and it's so hard for me to hear that and not carry that for afterwards. And so thankfully, I have an amazing, you know, set of parents who I've been learning from. I have amazing mentors, and our board has been so fantastic in helping me learn how to, how to process some of that, but I just didn't know.

[B]

And that's different than college ministry for sure. Okay. Because theoretically that was happening in college with 700 students or whatever it was. No, you're right, because that weight issue has come up in so many conversations with leaders. And I felt it when I became a pastor. I felt it lift when I stepped out of the lead pastor role. And the weight associated with what I'm doing now, I would say as a credit to all the pastors watching and listening, it's not what I experienced as a lead pastor. And the, the guy who took over for me, Jeff Brody, like, within a month, he was like, the weight. The weight, that's a very real thing. Anything else about the weight?

[A]

There's the other stuff too, that, that I, what I just shared is the biggest thing I was unprepared for. But, but the other weight, like the finances, you know, you're, you're. We have a small staff, but just thinking about, you know, this, I want to make sure that they can pay their bills and that they're comfortable financially. And things like we recently found out, we most likely will. Will be losing the venue that, that we've been meeting in for the last 14 months.

[B]

Slips it in there. We just recently found out.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, that's, that's kept me up the last five nights thinking about that also.

[B]

That's like recent. Recent.

[A]

So recent. And so there's all these little things that, you know, college ministry we had. I never once thought about the tithing that was coming in as like, oh, wait, that's essential to run all of these ministries and to pay my salary. I never thought about that. My biggest concern was I'm trying to get these college students to do what they said they were going to do, you know, to show up on time and stack these chairs for me, you know, so it was just immediate and, and yeah, I'm very grateful for, for God's grace and just great people to learn from because it's definitely caught me off guard.

[B]

You're married to children under the age of four, is that right?

[A]

Yes, that's right. Yeah.

[B]

You and Maddie are co pastors. Co lead Pastors, how. And I mean this in, in the most tender way, how has leading a church impacted your marriage?

[A]

You know, we're very open. Our first year of marriage was so hard. Like, very, very difficult.

[B]

Like, that was six years ago. Five years ago.

[A]

Six years ago. Yes. Yeah. And it was very difficult for a lot of different reasons. One, we just got married, so I think. I think that's true for. For a lot of people, their first year is very difficult to see the normal adjustments. But I think a big reason it was so difficult was because unclear expectations. So we just had very different expectations for not just our marriage, but our individual callings, our individual lives. She was working in the marketplace was crushing. It had a great job. I was just starting to travel and preach a little bit and was wanting to pursue that in a way that was taking away a little bit from our marriage. And we just never talked about it all that to say that first year. We thank the Lord for it so much because we were finally able to break through in our communication of expectations. We had a pastor who was giving us some premarital and postmartal counseling, and he said there's a difference between assumed expectations and agreed expectations. And that just one little phrase changed our marriage.

[B]

So, so true. Those of us who've been married a long time could probably. Yeah, I better take that home today.

[A]

Oh, man, it's. We. We literally say that phrase probably once a week still. And long story short, leading this church together is the first time in our marriage where both of us are. Are doing the same thing in the same direction all the time. And there are some days we drive each other crazy.

[B]

I was gonna say, is that a good thing?

[A]

It actually has been a great thing for us. I know some people, it doesn't work, and I totally understand why it wouldn't, but for our personalities, it works so well. She's great at so many more things than I am even okay at. And so I let her, as Gen Z would say, I let her cook, and then I kind of do my vision and teaching and. And she does pretty much everything else at our church. I mean, really, she has her hand all over our church and. And then we come together and we talk big picture stuff, but we really just kind of handle our own things. And it's. It's been really great for our marriage to have a common goal and something that we work on.

[B]

Well, I found working together can either be the best thing that ever happened to you or the worst thing that ever happened to you. And it doesn't Always work out.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That way. Social media, you said you don't live stream, but you have a pretty active social media presence personally and also for your church. Can you talk a little bit about your philosophy behind it? Because you get a lot of engagement from the number of followers, like highly, highly engaged followers.

[A]

So church wise, I mean, so much of what we're doing at our church I've gotten from this podcast. I told you offline. I'm glad this podcast is. And I mean this. I tell this to everybody, and not just to your face, but, Carrie, this podcast has impacted me so much. I cannot think of a resource that's helped me more in being a lead pastor than the conversations that you bring to us every week. So thank you so much. And so just the trends that you share regularly, the guests that you have on social media is the front door of your church. And so we believe that we've seen the fruit of that. We have people who come every week as first time guests because of something they saw online. And so we want to steward that. Well, I'm pretty hands on with the direction of the social media stuff just because I like it.

[B]

Well, and you did it right. Like it was a business, so to speak.

[A]

I like it, but I don't run it. So we have a team of about eight people. Everything from photos, video capturing, editing, making graphics, posting, coming up with ideas. You know, we're always looking for Instagram reels or things that we can do that are just different than just a sermon clip or a. Or a photo. You know, we're just trying to find something. Going back to that community idea. We're trying to find something that when people see it, they're like, I want to be a part of that group of people. That's. That's the kind of.

[B]

Yeah, you really do. On your, on your account, it feels like you focus on ideas, teaching points, and then on the Way Church account, you focus on community. It's a lot of. It's like Seth Godin's definition of culture. People like us do things like this. Right.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Which is when you look at the Way Church account, it's kind of like, oh, people like us do things like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Are you on TikTok or just Instagram?

[A]

Yes, I am. You are. I need to be more.

[B]

Exactly. Which was my question. Same.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where are you getting the most traction.

[A]

On social Instagram for sure.

[B]

Which is interesting because say the people say. Sorry to interrupt. No, Instagram is the millennial platform. You're barely a millennial gen z's on TikTok. But you're getting a lot of traction with Gen Z on Instagram.

[A]

Yeah, I think Gen Z, like, they spend the most time on TikTok, but they all have Instagram accounts.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so, like I have a brother in law who's gen Z, he's 23. And I was just talking to him about this the other day because I'm trying to learn from him and I was like, what do you spend the most time on? He's like, he's like, definitely Tick Tock. And he showed me his screen time, you know, and, and he's like, I spend way more time on Tick Tock. But he, this is what he said. He said, but Instagram is kind of like my, like my LinkedIn. And that made me feel, oh, man.

[B]

Six years, he's like, might as well be 60.

[A]

Right? Right. Well, he, he said like, like, I don't. He said, I'll post whatever on TikTok, I'll consume whatever on TikTok. But on Instagram, like, I'm really thinking about what I'm gonna post. Like, that's the, you know, that's what I'm growing up. Exactly.

[B]

Grown up. That's my big brother.

[A]

Okay, So I think, like, the content that we're sharing on Instagram is still being consumed by Gen Z, but the reason why we're about to start posting more on TikTok is because they're spending all their time on TikTok. And our church is made up of so many of those people were missing a huge opportunity there, I think. But we're also seeing traction from Instagram ads and Facebook ads. Oh, okay.

[B]

It just brings, yeah, Facebook ads. That's the one thing left on Facebook, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, totally right. Facebook, I mean, they've got the market.

[B]

On that and Marketplace.

[A]

Yes, yes. But we've seen really good traction from that. I will say, like, I think right now there's, there's a temptation not for, not for, for everyone. I definitely felt this when we started the church. It was like, oh, Facebook ads. Let's just put some money into that. That'll work. It works. But what works way better still is good culture, good community, word of mouth, invites. We found that Facebook ads will definitely get people in the door if you put enough money into it. But what keeps them there are the other things.

[B]

Are you on YouTube?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And what kind of traction are you seeing there? Any tips?

[A]

Good YouTube traction, I think, you know, for, for the size of our church, I feel good about it. We probably get somewhere between 500 and 1,000 views each week on the sermons.

[B]

Yeah. So almost the same as you're in person somewhere in that range. Yeah.

[A]

And I think, honestly, a lot of those people who are watching are, I think, I think that they're not from Nashville, if I'm, if I'm honest. I think they're from other places. They're seeing it on social media or maybe, you know, some other place.

[B]

If you were advising other church leaders on good use of social. What's like the one bad habit you wish all church leaders would stop? And one thing you wish, hey, try this. Sample this.

[A]

Yeah. I think we can't use our social media pages as advertisements. It doesn't work. It shouldn't be a bulletin, you know, with all your events and all those things. I, I, I think now, now, just.

[B]

To back up, but you say, but you actually run Instagram and Facebook ads, so can you explain exactly what's behind this great point?

[A]

So the Facebook and Instagram ads, we're targeting those to people who don't follow our account. So that's to try to get people to come to, to church. You know, that's, it's going to be a little different. We do like collages of photos of community. That's, that's our go to. Okay. And, and there's some information about, like, you know, I think the text on our current ads say something like, find your people at Waychurch. And then, and then there's like a little button that says, visit this Sunday. And if they click that, it sends them to a page where they can kind of tell us they're coming. We get a little gift for them. That kind of a thing.

[B]

That's not your daily organic feed, correct? Okay.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

I just wanted to delineate and for.

[A]

For our daily organic feed. Just this is, this is all my secret right here. For social media, it's the only strategy we run. It's, Is this helpful if, if you can run, you know, through the lens of, is this going to promote community or is this helpful if you're, if you're helpful to people, they're going to interact with your content, and that's something you do such a great job of. It's like, if it adds value to their life, even if they don't like my voice, even if they don't like the way I look, like if that adds value to their life, they're going to interact with the content and they're going to eventually identify with our mission because they're Being helped by it.

[B]

What is the biggest difference in your personal leadership, your time management? Take it where you want. From launch to 14 months later. Where if you look at classic church growth barriers, 200 is the hardest one to break. 85% of churches never make it. Most church plants fail. You've read the stats, you know the data. 500 is another big barrier. And you're now closing in on thousand barriers year. What difference has that made in your leadership? In just over a year, what are you not doing that you used to do? What do you have to start doing that you didn't do before? Or take it whatever direction you want?

[A]

I think when we started the church earlier in our conversation, I told you like, I'll get. I'll have like a vision. I want to run after it. And in the beginning, I wanted to be a part of all of it. Got to make sure this is what I. Yeah, yeah. Something that really set me free. I was with a great leader, someone I look up to a lot. Jonathan Puda. Oh yeah.

[B]

Jp. Yeah.

[A]

Legend. Just think the world of him. And he was talking from Ephesians 4 on. I think it's Ephesians 4:12 that says that a Christian leader, that our job is to equip the saints for the work of the ministry. And I was. That just set me free hearing him talk about it. And so something I'm trying to do, I need to do a much better job of it is equipping other people to do the work of the ministry instead of trying to do all the new ministry that's come from growth. And so I'm trying to get really good at saying no and be excited about saying no. We talked offline about our executive pastor. He's been a massive blessing. We need to make some hires soon. And you shared that with me. I totally agree.

[B]

Yeah. Tell everybody your staffing. Paid staffing. At 700 people on a weekend.

[A]

We have two full time and we have a part time staff member who's doing a phenomenal job as well. But two full time. Two full time. That's lean. Okay.

[B]

That's very lean. If you were wondering. It's lean, Noah.

[A]

Yeah, it is lean and we're ready and it's time. But a pro that has come from that has been the volunteer culture has had to be strong to fill in those gaps. And it's a testament to the volunteers that we have at our church, the way that they serve. We have a team, we call them our coordinator team. It's 10 couples right now and they really Put in the hours of part time staff every week, but none of them are paid and they run our church legitimately.

[B]

How do you motivate that? A lot of people would be saying, I talked to leaders last week who were like, I just got to pay more people. Yeah, I think you're overstaffed. How do you motivate people to work like part time staff without paying them?

[A]

This is a new revelation. Like I'm talking in the last couple of weeks, so I have not done this as well as I hope to do this in the future. But I read an awesome book recently called the Culture Code and I highly recommend it. I don't know if the guy who wrote it is a Christian, but it's a fascinating read about building culture and creating buy in. And the whole premise of the book, we've all heard that analogy of like, there's two people in the woods cutting down a tree. One guy sharpens his ax for 10 minutes, the other guy starts chopping right away. The guy who sharpens the axe wins. Well, this book is all about how if you want to create a great culture and do something that really matters, that you should spend your time sharpening the ax and the sharpening the axe is creating connection on your team. And so that coordinator group that's pouring out so much, we meet two times a month. That's it. And those two meetings last about an hour and a half each respectively. And we probably spend over an hour of that time connecting in about 30 minutes talking what needs to get done. At our last meeting, we just went around the room and honored a couple that was stepping out of leadership at our church. And people were in tears honoring this couple. I'm getting choked up right now thinking about the moment that we shared together. And you know, I had things that we needed to get to, but it was, it was legitimately an hour full of just honor and love and breaking bread together. And I think, like my misconception has always been I'm going to inspire people through what needs to happen. I'm going to inspire people, I'm going to get them to buy in by my vision. And that has a place for sure. But I think we get people to buy in by relational equity and when they feel a part of a group that loves them and that cares, they'll pour out for that group, you know, and so I'm trying to do a better job of cultivating that. I think we've done some of that on accident and we're going to try to do more of it. And by intention going forward.

[B]

What made you. Because it sounds like you launched with that DNA of community first. Right. Community itself is attractional. What made you decide that was going to be the DNA of way Church? Because I think it's remarkable. It's not like it's out there in the ether. It's not like everybody's doing it and you're just copying. Where did that come from? What motivated it?

[A]

So the two years prior to the start of Way Church, I was a full time evangelist. We lived in Atlanta, Georgia, big, massive city. We had a really bad community and it was hard for me because I was always gone. So I would come back. I'd miss the hangouts, I'd miss the birthday parties, whatever. I was preaching all weekend long. It was hard for my wife because she's getting invited to these married couple hangouts, but she's the only one with no spouse by herself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On top of that, Atlanta was just difficult for us because everything's so spread out, so it was hard to navigate. You couldn't just go hang out. Right. But then we went to go start the church and we started meeting with different pastors and leaders and we had heard from several pastors and pastors we love deeply, admire and respect say things like, hey, be careful going into ministry with friends. You know, it doesn't end well for most people. And we were like, well, great, we're about to plant a church with some of our best friends. You know, Grant, Cheyenne, Skeldon, shout out to them. I know they've been on the podcast. They, they were the first couple that said, hey, we're in to help start Way Church. And we're like, well, it's too late for us. You know, like, these are some of our best. We're already going, you know, to Nashville. And so it started with a deep craving and then it moved from that to this is the only way we can do it. Like us personally wired, we don't want to just have a great church that has great community. We want to have great community for ourselves. How What a shame it would be for us to have a church that thrives on community and for us as the pastors, not to have it. And so that's really been the heartbeat, has been like, we're desperate for it. Like, we want it and so we want it for you too. And I can honestly say right now, two years in being in Nashville, we've never had better friends, we've never had closer community. We're doing ministry with our best friends and there's been hard moments. There will definitely be more, but it's been worth it.

[B]

So on that note, I'm sure there have been a few hard moments. There will probably be more. And disagreement happens, somebody ends up with a very different vision. I don't know too many pastors who haven't had what they would consider to be a betrayal of some kind or a dissolution of a close friendship. What are you doing to prepare yourself for that moment?

[A]

It. Oh, man.

[B]

Or are you in the. This isn't going to happen to us.

[A]

No, no. I. I have a. I have a. A mentor. He's on our board and I've talked to him about this a lot because he has had some. Some pretty serious betrayals. And it's like, it's. It's so hard because I. I almost think if I give too much thought to it in my mind, it becomes an unnecessary anxiety in my. In my life.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair.

[A]

But at the same time, I don't want to be unprepared and just oblivious because it is going. It's human nature. I'm going to upset so many people on this journey. So many people are going to be upset with me. I'm going to be upset with them. And so something that this person said on the other side, that has been kind of my North Star when it comes to this thought, that is, he said, when it happens, bless them as they go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was like, it's easier said than done. But if you can just bless them as they come, bless them as they. As they go. Realize that every person that God gives you the blessing of pastoring, that you're doing it with an open hand. They're not yours. They're not way churches. They might say that they're going to be with you for 50 years and build the church, and then they might leave a week from now. If you can just see that they're not yours, they're the Lord's and that you get to pastor them for a temporary season, whatever that looks like. It will be so much easier if they leave, if you start from that mindset. And so we've had people leave already. And it's hard because I'm a people pleaser and I want everyone to stay, you know, but we've had so many other people come and it's just stuck with me that, like, I don't want to be the reason if someone does have a problem with Maddie and myself, our church, I don't want it to be because I gave them an extra Reason to. And so I'm going to try to, to bless them as they go and, you know, we may talk five years from now and be like, man, forget what I said on that episode.

[B]

Exactly. Can you just go back and cut that part of the podcast out?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hardest day so far in church planting.

[A]

So we meet in this awesome old church building and what does it seat?

[B]

200.

[A]

It seats 210 in the sanctuary. We can cram 85 and overflow. And we do pretty regularly.

[B]

Don't send the fire marshal around.

[A]

Yeah. So over the summer, it was this past summer, we grew from last fall. We were running about 270 people a Sunday. We went up to about 3:50 at the start of the new year. And just it kind of felt like, oh, everyone's back at church at the beginning of the new year. But from January to August, we doubled in size. I mean, it was crazy. We added a service, literally more people every week, week, every week. We added a service, immediately filled that service and it was, it was at the height of that growth about August timeline. We came in one Sunday and the AC was not working. 100 degrees, no AC. We, our team, I was so proud of him. We pivoted, got industrial fans. One of the guys on our team's construction guy, he went and got portable AC units from his construction site. We installed them. I mean, it was mountaintop moment. Got home, I was like, cannot believe that happened. Next week I went out again. We didn't have access to those portable AC units. It was brutal. We had too many. It was the first time we ever had to turn people away in a service because we had so many people. We broke an attendance record on the same Sunday that we did not have ac. People were drenched in sweat. And it would have been a day that I would have celebrated greatly because we broke an attendance record. You know, I felt like a lot of the service went really well, but all I could think about was all those first time people who were never going to come back because it was literally 88 degrees in the sanctuary. And on top of that, like, I was stressed out because I thought, how in the world could this happen twice? Back to back weeks, I thought, kind.

[B]

Of resentful in your head, like, did we not solve this, people?

[A]

Absolutely, yeah. And, and so I was, you know, looking back, I think I, I had the, I definitely had the wrong heart posture. I probably was rude, you know, in dealing, in dealing with the situation. And it was just a really hard day for me where I went home and honestly had to deal with my own pride and just realizing, like, so much of my letdown was built around pride and me wanting these first time people to be impressed with our operation versus, like, genuinely wanting them to encounter the Lord that day. I just realized, like, I had a lot of pride in that moment, but it was a low moment for me because of the bad experience in my mind that those people had, the pride. But then on top of that, I just realized I was kind of starting to buy into the church growth that we were seeing. And, man, I really want this to keep going kind of a thing. And it wasn't healthy. And so I had a lot of shame. I had to process after that week of like, this is what I said I didn't want. This is what I don't want to be. I don't want my emotions to be so tied to our attendance and to be so tied to the experience. It matters. We should measure it hard.

[B]

It's really hard. It's still hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can empathize with that. Sometimes I talk to church leaders, you know, they either don't have momentum or they're in a historic building. And I always think, and this was the latest affirmation, I've seen this around the world. But, you know, I would say your facilities, nice but not optimal.

[A]

Is that fair here?

[B]

Yeah. You've retrofitted that thing. The parking is funny. Funny level. Like, you must be really nice to your neighbors. People are parked like five blocks down the road.

[A]

I know.

[B]

To try to get in and around the corner and like, it's insane. And you don't have parking. What do you have space for?

[A]

72 parking spots and they're gone.

[B]

There must be another 150 cars on the road.

[A]

Our team parks at a title Max down the street, and then some of them park at Burger King across the street.

[B]

Right, right. With the permission of Burger King and.

[A]

Titlemax, we bribe Burger King.

[B]

Oh, good. It's like, all right, all right. Well, you know, what are you learning about facilities? Momentum and growth. Because the other part of the question I was going to say is a lot of people are like, well, we just have to get some new stage lights and it'll be great. Or maybe we need new microphones or. And I think those things do matter. But when you see momentum, it's almost like when a revival breaks out, it doesn't really matter where it's happening. People are going to squeeze in to wherever they are. What are you learning about facilities? And maybe by the time this airs, you've moved.

[A]

I Agree with that completely. I think it does matter. And we want the best facility possible. We want. If it's in the budget and it makes sense for us as stewards of the resources that people are giving to our church to have better equipment, we'll do that too. But something that I believe that I don't think is true is that that would keep people from us. I think that you could have our facility right now. You've been there. But just so people listening know. So you come in from the back parking lot. So you come in the back door of the church, because the front door's on a busy road and we don't want kids having to walk by that busy road. So you walk up a hill into an old gravel lot that's about 80 years old. You walk into an 80 year old building that we're so thankful for. You go up a set of stairs inside the building, and then you go right back outside, down a set of stairs and around. We have no lobby. So during the winter, it's about to be freezing outside. And people, we bought space heaters, we put them outside. People will go where there's something worth going to. And if the presence of God is there, it's worth going to. If there's community for them and their family, it's worth going to. I think also we're in a time where people are just not as drawn to the show. The show helps.

[B]

Like, well, if you had terrible music, then you don't. But I mean, this is Nashville. There's always better musicians down the road.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

And no slam on your musicians. They were great. But I mean, you can go to a hundred churches in town that have.

[A]

Top tier musicians, four musicians everywhere. I think it's like leaning into what your superpower is. And I think as a church plant, there's not a ton of superpowers when you start.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what we asked was like, what is it that we can offer that we can just fully lean into? And for us, that was the community piece. But then it was just like genuineness. Hey, we're new. We just missed the mic queue. Sorry about that. Yeah, like, I'll just address it. I mean, yesterday during the third service, my mic, our audio guy, who's amazing, he accidentally hit a button. He like slipped. Hit a button, muted you out. My mic, it sounded like I was Darth vader for like 15 seconds in a super important part of the sermon. And. And I just like took a step back and I looked up and I was like, God. And I just kind of went like that and everyone thought it was so funny. And then I just said, hey, we're a church plant. Thanks for being here today. And everyone laughed again. And we just kept going, you know, And I think, like, people just want something that feels genuine, feels real. And you can do that in any space with any budget. God's presence is the main thing.

[B]

You have a lot of joy, a lot of energy. You just came off a really big weekend. We're filming this on a Monday, and after preaching three services, a lot of pastors would be like, yeah, I'm out, I'm out. What are you learning about personal stores, personal reserves, Rhythms during a period of growth. I think there's always a honeymoon period. Momentum brings its own energy. But as you look down the road, how are you planning to be in this joyful, healthy most days in the long haul, what are some disciplines and rhythms that you're embracing?

[A]

I have three main rhythms that if I can just have these three things, my week is great. I feel healthy is what I mean by great. So the first one is my quiet time. It's non negotiable. I spend about 30 minutes every morning just in the word, and that's my time. And most of the time that's the first thing I do. I just operate better if it's first. And so I get up, really. I'm a morning person. So I get up about 5 o', clock, I spend 30 minutes in the word. And that just on the days that I don't do that, which are very rare, everything's off. Like, I don't know how to describe it. So that's the first one. The second one's actually physical. So I gained some weight the first three, four months of the church, okay, I was stressed, I was overeating. The weight hit me spiritually and physically.

[B]

And that's honest.

[A]

And so January of this year, I was like, I gotta find something that, that challenges me physically. And so I got into running and cycling, endurance sports. And right now this is isolating our, our audience to only people who are nerds about endurance sports. But I know you cycle, so yeah, I've just fallen in love with it. So I run about 30 miles a week, and then when it's warm, I cycle about 30 miles a week. And so that's been so, like, physically great, but honestly mentally and spiritually great as well.

[B]

I. I cycle sometimes just to get a break. Oh, like you're putting out, but your mind particularly. I live in the middle of nowhere, so if I see five Cars. It's a busy day. Yeah, it's great. It's just so good for my mind.

[A]

Do you think? I think it might have been on this podcast that John Mark Comer said, if you work with your hands, Sabbath with your mind.

[B]

He did, yeah. And if you work with your mind, Sabbath with your hands.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I think there is something. I think. Well, you know, it's John Mark, so, yes, he's probably right. He is brilliant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I look at it like, I'm kind of obsessed about my yard, but I think part of that is, you know, when are you done in leadership? Like, when is way church done? When is your message done? I know it's finished, but is it done because you had another idea? Saturday at lunch. Right. Or, you know, Monday, you're like, oh, I could have done this, or whatever. So leadership is never done. But the nice thing about the yard is when it's cut, it's cut. It's like, doesn't need to be done for a while, you know, when. When everything's in order. I love washing my car. I was washing it yesterday before church, and it's like, look at how clean that is.

[A]

So great.

[B]

Because nothing else is ever clean, you know, and it just. I think, you know, other people, they're into woodworking and everything, but I think that physical cadence. And it was Nietzsche who said, there's no thinking without walking. And there's something about the kinetic movement of the body that actually produces better ideas, I believe. So I'm.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

I'm there.

[A]

I believe it. It's been a game changer for me. Sometimes I'll just. My. My normal rhythm is quiet time run. And then I'm. I'm normally back by 6:37, and my kids wake up shortly after that. So it's the perfect rhythm for me because I love being home when the kids wake up and when they go to bed. But oftentimes I'll go for an extra run in the afternoon. Like if I'm struggling with a sermon idea or just a problem with the church. Yeah, I'll just go for a short, easy run and just hyper fixate on that. That thing.

[B]

Like 20 minutes or so.

[A]

Yeah, 20 minutes, maybe even 15, just to get back outside. And that's been really helpful. So. So the quiet time first rhythm. Second is running, cycling. The third rhythm has been actually practicing.

[B]

A Sabbath and in a planting season. So let's break it down. What day?

[A]

Friday.

[B]

Friday. Friday's your Sabbath.

[A]

Sabbath. So my wife, she's not paid by our Church. Her full time job is she works with arc. The ch. Huge blessing. We went through the ARC training process, learned so much. ARC was like, man, you know, we like Noah, we love Maddie, let's offer her a job.

[B]

Like, no, I love Maddie. Yeah.

[A]

And so that's most people when they meet us, but so they offered her a job. She jumped at the chance to help church planners. She's been doing that now for two years. And so her off day is Friday because most of their office is off on Fridays. And so it works out really great because I can't take Mondays off. My brain is just always thinking about what happens.

[B]

I'm with you on that. Yeah, I would just sit there and ruminate for a day. So mine was Friday or Saturday.

[A]

Friday just feels right. And it gives me that time Saturday to still tweak my message and stuff like that. But so Fridays, I, I actually, again, going back to John Mark Comer based our Sabbath around a lot of what he wrote about in the ruthless elimination of Hurry and some of his other teachings. And so our, our rules for Sabbath are it's either got to be worship or delight. And that's it. If it fits in one of those two categories. So practically what it looks like is most Fridays I go run with friends. We have a way run club on Friday mornings. And so I go for a run. I pick up coffee on the way home from our favorite coffee shop every single Friday. And then the kids get up and we do some sort of family day on Fridays. So my kids are really little. Oftentimes that's going to the park. We have a membership at the Nashville Zoo. We go to the zoo all the time. Sometimes it's just a play date with other friends at the church who've got little kids. And then almost every Friday we get a babysitter and do a date night. Nice.

[B]

That's such a great thing. That's one thing my wife and I did for years when a lot of our friends weren't doing it. And it's a lifeline. It's great.

[A]

I look forward to Friday so much.

[B]

That's our date night. Still, all these years later, I remember.

[A]

John Mark saying, if your Sabbath doesn't make you feel like a little kid on Christmas Eve, you're not doing it right. And I've always remembered that. And Thursday nights I got football on. My Sabbath is the next day. I feel amazing. So it's starting to click. But that wasn't a rhythm that we had until we started the church.

[B]

Top lessons for church Planters who are thinking of it or in the midst of it right now. And you did your ARC training?

[A]

We did.

[B]

So what would you say? Two or three non negotiables?

[A]

Yeah, I think I would start with training. I think you need other people that have done it to learn from, but you also need people who are going through it to talk to. And so we highly recommend arc, but there's lots of organizations, but you got to do it with someone, you got to do it with other people. I would also say, especially if there's any younger church planters that are listening. My biggest fear was my age and insecurity of what I shared earlier. Why would older people come? I would say, set yourself free from that. The older people who come to our church, I had coffee with one of them a few months back and I just said, why do you come to our church? Because you, you're one of our best team members. You're one of the most generous people at our church. You go above and beyond. This should be the season of your life when you're taking it easy, but you're not. Why do you do this? And he started crying and he said that his son rededicated his life at our church. And he said, if you want to reach people like me, reach people like you. And that has been something I have thought about so much because I was like, man, like, we're not going to have anyone who can give. Like, how are we going to, you know, all these 25 year olds, like, none of us have money. And I just was so stressed about that as a young church planter, like, should we wait another five or ten years until our, our age that we're going to attract is older? I would just say if, you know, you're called to it and you think the time might be now, obviously seek wise counsel, all those things, but you got to jump. God will bring the right people, he'll bring the right resources. If God's in it, you'll be able to say, man, it was only God that did this. And I think that's been our story is like, we were probably too young to start the church. We moved to a very expensive city. And every part of our story, God's hand's been on it. And it has not been because of us. It's often been despite us.

[B]

Why'd you pick Nashville?

[A]

Oh, man, we love it. So we, we, we lived in Cleveland, Tennessee when we first got married. It's about two hours from here, and Nashville was the getaway spot. Okay, long weekends, let's go to Nashville holidays. Let's go to Nashville. Fell in love with it. We were leading the college ministry at that time, and we had pastor Rich Wilkerson Jr. Come speak. And we asked him, we said, hey, why did you choose Miami? We're thinking about planting a church. Why did you plant in Miami? And he just, like, so nonchalantly was like, oh, that was actually the easiest part for us. He said, we just loved it the most. And I was like, oh, okay. And he's like, easy, yeah. He's like, yeah. You know, we just thought church planning is going to be hard, so we might as well do it somewhere we love. That way when it gets hard, we won't leave. And I was like, good answer. Wow. And then, you know, my wife's like, we're moving to Nashville. Like, in the conversation, it's like, we're moving to Nashville. And then we started praying about it. And there were so many things here, opportunities here that we loved. We loved. I mean, Nashville's really become, I call it the LA of the South. So much culture, so many businesses, so many influential things being created here. And we were like, man, the idea of planting a church with that kind of opportunity for impact just really excited us. And the more we explored options, doors just started opening that felt like God doors. And now we're here.

[B]

Noah, anything else you want to say or question? I didn't ask you that. You wish I would have asked you before we wrap up.

[A]

I don't think so. I'm just, again, so honored that you would. You would have me. I have this whole conversation of, like, I should be asking you the question. So it's been great. Thank you, seriously, for having me. It's such an honor.

[B]

No, I. I gotta say, Tony and I really loved what we see at Way Church. I'm just so encouraged. Everybody's looking for hope, the whole community. First part, I think, is a lesson to every church leader. Whether you're planting or rejuvenating, revitalizing, I think that really resonates. I've been writing about it for years, thinking about it for years, but as soon as you crystallized it with words, I'm like, oh, that's exactly what's happening there. And I think that could be a way forward for a lot of people. Just thank you so much. We're going to be watching, tracking, praying for years to come. Noah, if people. You've got a book, Holy Habits, had the privilege of reading an early copy, endorsing it, that's available everywhere. And I Guess we're tracking with you on Instagram these days, right?

[A]

That's right. Instagram. Main spot. TikTok soon.

[B]

TikTok soon. So look for Noah Herron there. Noah. Thanks man.

[A]

Thanks so much, Gary.

[B]

Well, I loved seeing what's happening at Way Church and it was great to be there in person. Noah's such a great leader. I really appreciate him a lot. And if you're interested, we also have video versions of just about every interview we do. You can Find us on YouTube, just search my name or the Carrie Newhoff Leadership podcast. You'll find us there. You can watch this episode and upcoming episodes also coming up Next episode. And we recorded this one in person too. It's another part of the Church Trend series. David Kinnaman and Mark Matlock on the incredible myths a lot of churches are having when it comes to reaching spiritually open people. We talk about the dismal state of evangelism and a whole lot more. Also coming up on the podcast, Ramit Sethi, Tyler Staten, Dave Ramsey. You know, he's been doing this for 30 years. We're going to talk about about all that and more. John Ortberg, Jenny Catron, Craig Groeschel, Mark Clark, Justin Brierly, and a whole lot more. And if you really did enjoy today's episode, please leave us a rating and review and maybe share it with a friend. Well, thank you so much for being with us today. Hey, next time we'll be back with a fresh episode. And in the meantime, I hope our conversation today helped you identify and break a growth barrier you're facing. Hey, before we go, pastors, I know how hard it can be to keep your sermons fresh and relevant, especially when you are preaching week after week after week after week. So whether you're hitting writer's block or you're in a rush trying to put the finishing touches on your sermon, it can be hard. And so I want to help. I've created a 10 step preaching cheat sheet. Actually, I just totally revised it. After decades of preaching, I've simplified my sermon prep into a series of steps and reminders. Now updated, they're engaging, relevant, memorable, and ready for preaching in Today's culture. It's 10 simple prompts with examples that you can start using as early as today for next Sunday. So start transforming your preaching. Visit preachingcheatsheet.com get your new copy for free. Even if you downloaded this a year ago or so, we've had 40,000 church leaders download it. It it's updated. Check it out. Preachingcheatsheet.com to download your copy absolutely free.